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eh
Got this from a Suns board where the arguement of making teamates better was brought up. It'd be easy for me to take it to the Dallas board b/c I know they agree. But I though I'd bring it here. What are your thoughts on this. Isn't making your teamates better all about drawing extra defensive attention on the offensive end or erasing defensive mistakes on the other end?Huh? Kobe, Duncan and KG do not, and have never made their teammates better players (unless you consider that taking defensive pressure away from a shooter qualifies as making teammates better - but if that teammate doesn't see the ball, what good is it to have less defensive pressure?).
eh
Here's my reply
Isn't that the gist of making your teamates better?
Raja Bell: Wow Steve, you penetrated the lane and drew my defender from the wing closer to you, then you passed it out to me and I have an opne 3 point shot as opposed to a contested one. I am much better at making open shots as I am contested ones. Thank you Steve!!
Brent Barry:Wow Tim, your post up drew Manu's defender from the wing closer to you, then you passed it out to Manu and my defender rotated to him, then he passed it to me, and now I have an opne 3 point shot as opposed to a contested one. I am much better at making open shots as I am contested ones. Thank you Tim!!
Same scenario, but in the first Nash gets the assist. How can you guys not get that?
I'd add to that the point that Tim's play on the defensive end, where he's among the dominant players of this era, "makes his teammates better" because they are able to play much more aggressively on that end then they otherwise might. Guys know that if they play aggressively and get beat, Tim will usually be back there to block or change a shot and cover for the mistake. By allowing his teammates to play aggressively, though, Duncan's presence makes them better because they can force the ball away from players and challenge shots much more effectively than if they were compelled to lay off for fear of being beaten to the rim.
It's not the prototypical way that a player makes his teammates better (myopically viewed as a high number of assists) but it undoubtedly has made the Spurs the best team in the league over the past 10 seasons, regardless of who comprises the supporting cast.
Drawing defense is only a fraction of the general scheme. The Spurs have 3 threats, which are capable of pulling a double team. Now, as to making your teamates better, that is a very dubious statement, IMHO. You cannot factor out other qualities such as on/off-court leadership, positive at ude, defensive abilities, court vision, I could go on. There are too many variables that contribute to the success of a team, even when analyzing the contributions of one specific player.
Tim doesn't make teammates better?
Ask Jaren Jackson.
And Nash makes everybody on the floor better, including the opponent's offensive players.
My god... that is one of the most asinine statements I've heard in a long time.
All of those guys make their teams much better. Duncan has proven himself in that regard probably more than any active player in the league right now (with the possible exception of Shaq... but he with Kobe for his first 3 championships).
Other than Shaq, Duncan has more championships than any active cornerstone player (I'm not couting Kobe, who won his rings with Shaq).
wasn't the knock on guys like Charles Barkley that they couldn't win a championship because they didn't do enough to make teammates bettere.
Tim Duncan has won 3 championships, and the Spurs have the best winning percentage in all of professional sports since Duncan's arrival in San Antonio.
What more would he have to do to prove he makes his teammates better?
That pretty much ended the argument, greensboro.
NICE!
Very true. I just don't think the Suns play enough defense to win a championship. If Wade isn't back and healthy for the Heat come playoff time... there are only 2 legit NBA le contenders: Dallas and San Antonio.
Actually, you could argue that this is the single biggest reason why Tim has three rings and Nash has none.
On defense, Nash makes his teammates worse.
But it's not surprising a Suns board wouldn't understand that.
Post this in the ing NBA forum, and anyone that thinks Duncan doesnt make players better probably roots for a team that doesnt have any championships
yup everyone not named Nash does not make their teamates better. Sun fans are brilliant!
Ask them what happens if Nash is forced to shoot instead of pass, which is what happens everytime he plays vs. Spurs. They lose, that's what happens.
TD is the focus of an entire team's defense. When he gets the ball, everyone is waiting on how they can help. He dribbles, they rush him. That leaves someone open. If he kept the ball every time and forced shots, yeah, I could see that. But TD is the last guy to force it and probably the most anxious (among the great low post scorers) to feed his open teamates. And he does make great decisions to get the ball out to the right guy. And even if that teamate doesn't shoot, it usually leads to someone getting an open shot. That's just on offense. On D, he's one of the best helpside defenders for big guys that we've seen.
That quote comes from what a 12 yr old. all those players definately make their teammates better in their own way. Especially KG and Timmy
We have a winner.
TD drawing double teams in the post alone probably makes the team better than Nash with his double-digit assists.
shut your ing trap . Either comment or don't, it's Spurs related.
Oh sorry tough guy, didnt mean to make fun of your crappy thread that no one wants to post in anyway, so off little
Jeez -- why does every post coming from a Suns or Mavericks fan have to devolve into this "no championships" nonsense. Some of you make me want to go away from this forum and never come back. Arguments like "3 to 0" or "you don't know because you've never won" are more than just tiresome, they're evidence (to me) that the poster doesn't really have anything to add to the conversation.
There's a time and a place for everything -- and there's a time and a place for championship smack -- but each and every thread involving the views of Mavericks and Suns fans is neither the time nor the place, in most instances.
Time is now and place is here, you expect people to post like this and not react? I never even brought up 3 to 0 or mentioned the Mavs alright? I hardly ever even come in here, I stick in the NFL board, but its hard not to comment when you look at the Spurs board and a Mav fan has posted some about Duncan not being any good, especially when its some thought from another board, at least bring your own opinions
Well I see your point, except that the thread starter disagreed with the guys take. He even posted his reply stating that the suns fan was in fact wrong about saying Tim did not help make his teammates better. did you read the whole thread or just the le?
I guess your right, just get tired of all these Mav led threads in the Spurs board, and while I dont really see how he was disagreeing with the post, just throwing questions out, I guess I should lay off. My fault, back to the NFL forum I guess
Well i can say that you are one of the better NFL posters on the board, that is where I spend a lot of my time.
The origanal poster .. Either here or someplace else, doesn't know what they are talking about.
The way defenses work in the NBA, its easy for almost any player to draw a double. The key is to know when to pass. The great ones know this, the less then great do not.
Duncan knows, and most coaches in the NBA try to teach.
A better arguement would be who makes their teammates "more better". In this, I will take Nash. Although Duncan helps on both ends of the floor, Nash has made All-Stars out of two players that when he is not on the floor are incapable of winning a game.
Without Duncan, Parker and Manu could win against some of the teams out there, but without Nash, Marion and Amare are absolutly NOTHING.
Last edited by Dalhoop; 03-05-2007 at 07:10 PM. Reason: I don't proof read.
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