What Sets the Spurs Apart From the Suns and Mavs?

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

What sets San Antonio apart from Dallas or Phoenix is that the Spurs are the only team in the Western Conference with 2 great players (Tim and Manu).

Obviously, there are other teams that have multiple excellent players, but only San Antonio has two greats. Let me explain.

Excellent players and great players are alike in almost every way… with one notable difference. A great player is simply an excellent player who has another gear when it counts the most. It’s the guy for whom the basket seems two feet wider in the final 5:00 of the 4th quarter... or who always come up with the great play in crunch time. A great player is the guy you can almost bank on taking over the game in a crucial situation. Every bone in his body screams “champion”.

The baseball equivalent in recent years would be Curt Schilling or John Smoltz. There are a number of guys who can match them pitch for pitch just about the entire way… but they have one more gear that comes out when it’s all on the line.

Guys like Josh Howard, Tony Parker, and especially Amare Stoudemire are all excellent players. You could probably throw Shaun Marion and maybe Jason Terry in that category as well. But between the 3 elite teams in the west… there are 4 truly great players: Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitski, Steve Nash, and Manu Ginobili. As you’ll notice… two of them wear silver and black.

Let me be clear… Amare Stoudemire is very excellent. But has he proven he has an additional gear? I don’t think he has yet.

So if the Spurs have two great players, why didn’t they win last year? Because we were missing a key role player (another big man who could run). The result was that we were clearly out-rebounded, and didn’t have another shot blocker to help protect the rim on defense. We also lost against the Lakers a few years ago due to a lack of a key role player (a pure shooter who could hit an open shot when LA collapsed the paint). That's why the Spurs couldn't get Brent Barry on the phone fast enough after that series was over.

A lot of people express concern about the Spurs cast of role players this year. I think that concern was once valid, but is now outdated. Not too long ago, we had reason to be concerned about guys like Bowen and Finley, but that’s no longer the case. They’ve both stepped up their games in a big way (though Bowen needs to rediscover his baseline-3). Francisco Elson (as fast a 7-footer as there is in the league) will match up quite well against Dallas and Phoenix. Brent Barry still drains from long-distance. Jacque Vaughn has really solidified the backup point guard position. We all know that Robert Horry will be a solid contributor in the post-season. Heck… Matt Bonner could even play a significant role before all is said and done.

I think the Spurs have all the pieces necessary to compliment what no other team has… two truly great players.

[Kori Ellis]

Nice post but I disagree with some of it. It isn't about the Big 2 being better than their Big 1's. It's a little bigger team picture than that.

Our Big 3 has to be better than their Big 4's.

Tim, Manu and Tony have to be greater than Amare, Nash, Marion and Barbosa and Dirk, JHo, Terry and Stack.

Add to that they have guys like Bell and DHarris, you could even say it's their Big 5 vs our Big 4 (if the Spurs can find a fourth).

Oh and I think it's funny that you included Manu in the truly greats, along with Duncan, Nash and Dirk, but not any of the other players. Manu has had some great games but so have some of the other guys you are leaving off.

[Southwest Texas Fan]

Kori do you think BB could be included in that 4th player when looking at some of the match ups? Bruce usually does a good job on Marion, as well as JHO. I know his offense has been suspect lately, mainly because he is struggling with his baseline 3. But I think he is our 4th player defensively at least. Do you think our best three or four can be better?

[bdictjames]

Nice post. I didn't know Brent served that purpose for the Spurs, our FA is really good.

[aaronstampler]

The way I see it, in a lot of ways the Mavs are the most vulnerable of the big three because both the Suns and the Spurs have a third best player that's better than the Mavs' second best player.

But Dallas does have a lot of guys who can hurt you on a given night. I agree with Kori that for us to beat anybody we're gonna need a fourth, fifth, sixth guy to step up. Brent's gonna have to knock down threes against the Suns, Fin's gonna have to match points with Stack, Bowen's gonna have to elimanate Marion/Howard and Elson's gonna have to guard the paint and rebound.

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

Nice post but I disagree with some of it. It isn't about the Big 2 being better than their Big 1's. It's a little bigger team picture than that.

Our Big 3 has to be better than their Big 4's.

Tim, Manu and Tony have to be greater than Amare, Nash, Marion and Barbosa and Dirk, JHo, Terry and Stack.

Add to that they have guys like Bell and DHarris, you could even say it's their Big 5 vs our Big 4 (if the Spurs can find a fourth).

Oh and I think it's funny that you included Manu in the truly greats, along with Duncan, Nash and Dirk, but not any of the other players. Manu has had some great games but so have some of the other guys you are leaving off.

To go back to the baseball analogy... many pitchers have thrown every bit as well as Schilling or Smoltz. The fact remains, they have another gear in big post-season games. As a long time Braves fan... Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine will be regarded among the all-time greats. However, they were never able to consistently elevate their games in the post-season. Now of course, Maddux or Glavine at their everyday level of play (back in their prime) was pretty darn good, but they didn't have another gear.

Of course Amare and some of these other guys are going to be excellent. But there are a select few that have proven themselves able to elevate thier games when it counts the most.

Again, I happen to believe that between these 3 teams, there are 4 such players: Nash, Nowitski, Duncan, and Ginobili. I could be wrong, but that's the way I see it.

And of course, you are correct that is the level of play by these teams as a whole that will matter, and not who has the best 3 or the best 4. My point is that, all other things being relatively equal (as they seem to be between these 3 teams), it often comes down a great player pulling his team over the top... and the Spurs have 2 such players.

Kori, when Manu is going off the way he did in the 2005 finals - to the point where people question the decision to give the MVP trophy to Tim Duncan!!!... do you really think players like Howard, Barbosa, Diaw (as good as they are, and they are excellent) are at the same level as Manu?

I don’t.

We all agree that Manu could have easily been award the Finals MVP. That’s a of a thing to say when Tim Duncan (who of course was the actual recipient of the trophy) is your teammate.

Manu has PROVEN himself to be an MVP caliber player on the post-season stage. The other players you mentioned of course play very well throughout the season and the post-season… but MVP level? I just don’t think any of those other guys haven proven that yet.

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

Nice post but I disagree with some of it. It isn't about the Big 2 being better than their Big 1's. It's a little bigger team picture than that.

Our Big 3 has to be better than their Big 4's.

Tim, Manu and Tony have to be greater than Amare, Nash, Marion and Barbosa and Dirk, JHo, Terry and Stack.

Add to that they have guys like Bell and DHarris, you could even say it's their Big 5 vs our Big 4 (if the Spurs can find a fourth).

Oh and I think it's funny that you included Manu in the truly greats, along with Duncan, Nash and Dirk, but not any of the other players. Manu has had some great games but so have some of the other guys you are leaving off.

One more thought... if Finley is playing as he did through most of the post-season last year and as he is playing now... I think he fills out a San Antonio "Big 4" just fine. I would certainly compare a sharp and aggressive Micheal Finley to a Stackhouse or a Barbosa in terms of overall ability.

But again... my point was never to compare who the best 3 or 4 player combinations are for each team. And you were correct that it's about the team as a whole.

As a whole... SA's team defense has once again been re-established as the best in basketball. And the Spurs certainly have plenty of offensive weapons. Especially against the Sun's defense.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not underestimating the Suns, and certainly not the Mavs, but I do think the Spurs would have a slight edge on both if the playoffs started tomorrow.

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

Nice post. I didn't know Brent served that purpose for the Spurs, our FA is really good.

Brent started out slow, but he's top 5 in 3-point FG% this year... and that was pretty much the job description the Spurs handed Barry when he got here a few years ago.

[LilMissSPURfect]

Default Re: What Sets the Spurs Apart From the Suns and Mavs?

I thought this was a trick question or something....(3 rings thing) or distance or that all three are MAJOR US cities....

hmmmmm

B4 i go on...yes im a spurs homer....SPURS have TIMMAYYY and they don't...1 more point timmay and we are back to back champs! Timmay is key when comparing to SUNS and MAVS.....IMO they have no ANSWER for him....(ok maybe throwing 3-4 fresh bodies at him)
We'll b IGHT! If he's IGHT!

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

Manu proved himself 2 years ago. It could be a different story this time around. Who really knows?

That's true, but other coaches and players have been commenting that he's playing at that 2005 post-season level right now. I would agree.

[Kori Ellis]

One more thought... if Finley is playing as he did through most of the post-season last year and as he is playing now... I think he fills out a San Antonio "Big 4" just fine. I would certainly compare a sharp and aggressive Micheal Finley to a Stackhouse or a Barbosa in terms of overall ability.

I think you are either overrating Finley or underrating Barbosa. Barbosa puts up very similar numbers to Manu.

[SenorSpur]

The thing that probably sets the Spurs apart from the Suns and Mavs to me is the Spurs are THE superior defensive team. At least when Pop is not overly committed to playing "small ball".

That will have to be their calling card during the playoffs....and they absolutely MUST rebound the ball better.

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

I think you are either overrating Finley or underrating Barbosa. Barbosa puts up very similar numbers to Manu.

Okay... I have no problem with your take on Finley vs. Barbosa. But you're comparing Barabosa to Manu!!!!?????

Come on Kori, you know Manu could easily have 25 point per game average right now had he been called on to do so, and you also know as well as I do that the ole' "you can't measure his game in stats" cliche never applied to anyone more than Manu.

Ginobili is a uva lot better than he looks on paper. Tell me you wouldn't trade 2 Barbosa's for Manu in a heartbeat.

[ducks]

Okay... I have no problem with your take on Finley vs. Barbosa. But you're comparing Barabosa to Manu!!!!?????

Come on Kori, you know Manu could easily have 25 point per game average right now had he been called on to do so, and you also know as well as I do that the ole' "you can't measure his game in stats" cliche never applied to anyone more than Manu.

Ginobili is a uva lot better than he looks on paper. Tell me you wouldn't trade 2 Barbosa's for Manu in a heartbeat.

if manu played on the suns he wouldf average 30
suns average 150 a game
spurs good to get 100 3 games in a row

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

The thing that probably sets the Spurs apart from the Suns and Mavs to me is the Spurs are THE superior defensive team. At least when Pop is not overly committed to playing "small ball".

That will have to be their calling card during the playoffs....and they absolutely MUST rebound the ball better.

You are indeed wise! Agreed, 100%. The only thing I will state slightly differently is that I don't think Elson necessarily has to be in better in the rebounding/shot blocking department than Rasho or Nazzi were. Their production in both departments would have been enough to tighten the Spurs defense and rebounding considerably. The difference is... Elson can run. So hopefully, Pop won't feel the need to send Elson to the bench as he did Rasho and Nazzi.

[Kori Ellis]

Okay... I have no problem with your take on Finley vs. Barbosa. But you're comparing Barabosa to Manu!!!!?????

Come on Kori, you know Manu could easily have 25 point per game average right now had he been called on to do so, and you also know as well as I do that the ole' "you can't measure his game in stats" cliche never applied to anyone more than Manu.

Ginobili is a uva lot better than he looks on paper. Tell me you wouldn't trade 2 Barbosa's for Manu in a heartbeat.

I didn't say Barbosa was equal to Manu, so simmer down. I said he puts up similar stats to Manu. Many people consider Barbosa the main candidate for 6th Man of the Year. So I think you were discrediting him by comparing him to Finley in overall ability.

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

if manu played on the suns he wouldf average 30
suns average 150 a game
spurs good to get 100 3 games in a row

That is an EXCELLENT point. PPG averages are going to look better for players on a run-and-gun team like the Suns, because there are many more opportunities to shoot.

I think points-per-game is a little overblown anyway, because it's almost the only thing people look at when measuring a player offensively (unless he's a point guard, in which case most people are willing to consider assists as well).

Field goal percentage is often much more important in terms of helping your team.

[Kori Ellis]

That is an EXCELLENT point. PPG averages are going to look better for players on a run-and-gun team like the Suns, because there are many more opportunities to shoot.

I think points-per-game is a little overblown anyway, because it's almost the only thing people look at when measuring a player offensively (unless he's a point guard, in which case most people are willing to consider assists as well).

Field goal percentage is often much more important in terms of helping your team.

Well Manu shoots 47% and Barbosa shoots 48%

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

I didn't say Barbosa was equal to Manu, so simmer down. I said he puts up similar stats to Manu. Many people consider Barbosa the main candidate for 6th Man of the Year. So I think you were discrediting him by comparing him to Finley in overall ability.

You'll probably disagree with me... but I think that if Finley had played all season the way he's playing now, he would also be a viable sixth-man candidate.

[Kori Ellis]

You'll probably disagree with me... but I think that if Finley had played all season the way he's playing now, he would also be a viable sixth-man candidate.

Yes I disagree with you.

In March, he's only shooting 43% and not doing much outside his scoring, averaging about 2 rebounds and 1 assist in 20 mpg. Nothing impressive.

Did you forget he just shot 2-for-12 a couple games ago?

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

Well Manu shoots 47% and Barbosa shoots 48%

Kori, I still believe, and I think you do as well… I think you’re messing with me a little bit to see if my head will explode … that Manu brings things to floor, not easily measured in stats, that almost no other player in the league, including Barbosa, can provide. And I’m convinced that there isn’t a GM in the NBA who wouldn’t trade Barbosa for Ginobili.

That said, I will grant you that throughout most of this season, what Barbosa brought to the Suns was somewhat commensurate to what Ginobili gave the Spurs.

However, correct me if the following statement is off base.

On February 27, 2007 at approximately 6:55 eastern time in Atlanta, Georgia, Manu Ginobili walked into a phone booth at Phillips Arena and emerged with a red cape emblazoned with “GIIIINNNNOOOOBILI” in big blue letters… the same one he wore in during the 2005 Finals. No reason to believe he'll be taking it off again this year.

That Ginobili will make Leandro Barbosa his woman every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Tell me I’m wrong.

[Kori Ellis]

Kori, I still believe, and I think you do as well… I think you’re messing with me a little bit to see if my head will explode … that Manu brings things to floor, not easily measured in stats, that almost no other player in the league, including Barbosa, can provide. And I’m convinced that there isn’t a GM in the NBA who wouldn’t trade Barbosa for Ginobili.

...

Yes, I'm messing with you because you are contradicting yourself. When ducks brought up that Manu and Barbosa's points can't be compared because the Suns score more point per game, you jumped all over it and said you agreed and that FG% is a better indicator of a player's worth to a team.

So I just gently pointed out that Barbosa's FG% is slightly higher than Manu.

Anyway, I was never comparing Barbosa and Manu, you just completely overreacted to even think that someone could be compared to Manu My whole point was that Finley isn't equal to Barbosa.

[TMTTRIO]

Barbosa puts up very similar numbers to Manu.

yeah with Manu getting record low minutes this season (27) and Barbosa getting 32 minutes a game . I still wish Pop would give him a few more minutes.

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

Yes, I'm messing with you because you are contradicting yourself. When ducks brought up that Manu and Barbosa's points can't be compared because the Suns score more point per game, you jumped all over it and said you agreed and that FG% is a better indicator of a player's worth to a team.

So I just gently pointed out that Barbosa's FG% is slightly higher than Manu.

Anyway, I was never comparing Barbosa and Manu, you just completely overreacted to even think that someone could be compared to Manu My whole point was that Finley isn't equal to Barbosa.

"you jumped all over it and said you agreed and that FG% is a better indicator of a player's worth to a team."

No Kori, I did not contradict myself. Read what I wrote.

Yes, I stated that FG% is often a truer indicator than a just a points per game average. But I never suggested that a player's FG% = the sum total of his worth to a team.

I was making a general point, not in reference to Barbosa (especially since his FG% is decent, as you pointed out) or anyone specific. I was simply saying that, often, way too much is made out of PPG averages. A guy could score 30 points a games while shooting 30%, and people would call him a star and he'd get a sneaker contract. But the reality is that he would be hurting his team, not helping it. I don't see how that contradicts anything else I said before that.

[SpursDynasty]

Here's the difference between the Spurs and Suns/Mavs:

Duncan/Ginobili - Have won 2 championships together, including dethroning LA and Detroit
Nash/Stoudemire/Marion - Have shot their opponents' lights' out, but not in tightened playoff defense (SA, Dallas)
Dirk/Howard/Terry - Gave up a 2-0 series lead, including a 13 point lead in the 4th quarter. Sure they've done brilliant things before then (eliminate Spurs) and after (Start 52-11 so far), but why not IN the Finals?

Go ahead, bring in more stuff, but it all narrows down to what I said above.