Forget the finals MVP after 3 i don't see how he needs another one at this point, although i do think if the Spurs win it he will get the MVP again. To me a 4th le puts him ahead of Shaq because Tim did just as much with a whole lot less around him. I say he is not only the best PF ever but in the top 10 of all time players if they get this 4th le.
he should be in between bird-magic...the knock on tim is his stats dont fare up well with these guys, but tims not known for stats....then again 4-5 of the guys on the list played with at least 2-3 HOFS and allstars and teams were stackd with players in the 80s
Well those guys played on better teams but as far as individual players go, no i don't think they are any better than Tim.
oh my goodness...do you know why he was able to win with "less talent around him"?...BECAUSE THE WEAK COMPE ION THAT HE FACED
Last edited by thewatcher; 06-09-2007 at 11:36 PM.
yes, the weak "competence" he faced. thank you for pointing that out, cleveland fan.
in an era of kobe, shaq, nash, amare, iverson, carmelo, dirk, kidd, wade ... yeah, it's a cake walk.
LOL, how you left James out. NiCe
One clear level above Hakeem & Shaq. Still lacking one more ring to overtake Bird though.
oh my goodness...do you know why he was able to win with "less talent around him"?...BECAUSE THE WEAK COMPETENCE THAT HE FACED
Shaq has 4 rings...
I know people say that Timmy is better than Shaq... yadda yadda...
You CANNOT deny Shaq's dominance for a decade. SHAQ changed how the game was played... and now that he effectively gone... it can go back...
They are different types of players... but overall... I still think Shaq at his peak was more effective than imposing his will on a game than Timmy ever was... he was simply UNSTOPPABLE...
Timmy will last longer... if he chooses to... but Shaq was a beast...
I agree with you that in his prime, Shaq was "simply UNSTOPPABLE". And I'm amazed at how quickly people are forgetting that, now that he's past his prime.
That being said, if Tim wins another Championship in the next few days, I put him equal to Shaq. They'll both have 4 rings. Tim will probably have four Finals MVPs to Shaq's three, and I believe he also has one more regular season MVP. (Of course, it is a pathetic joke that Shaq only got one regular season MVP in all those dominating years). I think Tim has had a better career on the defensive end, and almost as good a career on the offensive end. They're both team players and they both have the unquenchable desire to win and to do what it takes to win.
Tim is definitely the greatest PF ever, one of the top ten Centers ever, and one of the top ten PLAYERS ever. How does he fit in with MJ, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain? Does he crack the top 5 ever? I'm not sure yet, but he's still got a few years left to climb that ladder.
competence.
Let's have this conversation in 4-5 when he's done. When the dude completes his journey, let's take a look at the path.
Top 10 Ever.
Best PF Ever.
I agree...but what if the "'08 plan" comes into place and we can sign a big-time FA? We reel off a few more championships...does he make the top 5 then? I think so.
Of course these ratings are all subjective, but here is the argument as to why if the Spurs win this le he would not only equal but surpass both Bird and Shaq.
Shaq:
Overall resumes slightly favor Duncan with a 4th ring. Shaq is the better scorer but Duncan is clearly the better defender and all around player. Shaq also has his "period of dominance at his peak" argument. People forget that Duncan led the Spurs of a sweep of Shaq and Kob in '99 and Duncan punched Shaq and the Lakers in the mouth in '03 with 37 and 21 to end the run of 3. Also, in Shaq's MVP season of '00 the Spurs were the only team with a winning record against LA but Duncan was out for the playoffs so they never met. Point being that Shaq's dominance over Duncan at his peak was at best marginal because Duncan also dominated Shaq during that era at times. Duncan also has a clear edge in terms of consistent excellence. His teams have never been exited from the playoffs in the first round and have only been swept once (admitedly to the Lakers but Duncan swept Shaq too) while Shaq's teams have been swept many times. Shaq also has never won a le without a Top 5 player as a sidekick whereas Duncan has never had a Top 10 player in any of his le runs.
Bird:
Look at the resumes:
Elected to Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (1998); NBA champion (1981, '84, '86); NBA Finals MVP (1984, '86); NBA MVP (1984, '85, '86); Nine-time All-NBA First Team (1980-88); All-NBA Second Team (1990); All-Defensive Second Team (1982, '83, '84); NBA Rookie of the Year (1980); One of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996); Olympic gold medalist (1992).
Duncan has comparable or better in every category except he is short 1 league MVP but he dominates Bird as a defensive player and will have more les and le MVP's. I love Larry Legend but he is now looking up at TD.
I really wish they could change that 50 Greatest Players anytime soon. Hopefully Big Dave wont be kicked out.
I think they won't change the Top 50 but instead make it the Top 60 or 75. I think David is pretty safe in the Top 25 right now. Gervin will go before David.
Weak competence? Seems like thewatcher has a 'weak competence' of the English language.
Shaq dominated the game on the offensive end, but Timmy dominates on both ends of the court. That is one thing a lot of people forget and that's how everyone is perceiving LeBron as being the next MJ....they are wrong, too many people just look at the offensive side of the ball.
oh my goodness...do you know why he was able to win with "less talent around him"?...BECAUSE THE WEAK COMPETENCE THAT HE FACED
Stop crying
The best I have ever seen. I rank him at the top.
Snaq OMeal really didnt change how the game is played. When Snaq came into the league, we were in the league of centers. Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Deke, Snaq, Zo...
Snaq's career is effectively over and we are in the league of slashers. LeDirk, Wade, Kobe, Melo, etc.
Shaq was stopped twice at the peak of his performance by Tim Duncan.
Shaq has three Finals MVPs. Duncan is about to get his 4th. Duncan is a much better defender than Shaq ever was. Duncan is not a liability at the end of games as Shaq is. Even when his FTs arent hitting, Duncan is still a go to player. Tim was an MVP more than Shaq. Tim is a finals MVP more than Shaq. Tim was a AllNBA Defense more than Shaq. Tim has as many All-NBA first teams as Shaq, but has played considerably less seasons. Duncan will still rack them up while Shaq is done.
Tim > Snaq
lmao a Cleveland fan ing about winning because of weak compe ion. Nice teams you beat. Gilbert and Butlerless Wizards, the mediocre Nets, and an overrated Pistons team. Now that your actually playing a le contender your going to get owned.oh my goodness...do you know why he was able to win with "less talent around him"?...BECAUSE THE WEAK COMPETENCE THAT HE FACED
I love Tim Duncan, but no way is he on Shaqs level. Even when he wins this one le. In Shaqs prime he couldn't be stopped. Here are his playoff averages during his prime.
98: 30.5 PPG, 61 FG%, 10.2 RPG 2.9 BPG
99: 26.6 PPG, 51 FG%, 11.6 RPG 2.9 BPG
00: 30.7 PPG, 57 FG%, 15.4 RPG 2.4 BPG(Won le)
01: 30.4 PPG, 55 FG%, 15.4 RPG 2.4 BPG(Won le)
02: 28.5 PPG, 53 FG%, 12.6 RPG 2.5 BPG(Won le)
03: 27.0 PPG, 54 FG%, 14.8 RPG 2.8 BPG
Both have 8 All NBA 1st Team appearences despite there being two Forwrd spots on the 1st Team. During Shaq's prime he was on it every year as well as 04, 05, and 06.
I love Tim Duncan and recognize his greatness. I refer to him as the best power forward of all-time, but Tim Duncan was never able to dominate the game the way Shaq did.
Tim Duncan definetly has a good shot to surpass Shaq though, since he is only 31 and has 4 les(let's assume that). At the pace he's going I wouldn't be surprised to see him match MJ's 6 les.
Tim clearly stopped Shaq in his prime, twice. In '99 and '03 he dominated Shaq. The Spurs closed down the Forum in '99 and wiped the floor with Shaq. In '03 the Spurs stopped the streak of 3 les highlighted with a 37 and 21 performance at Staples where Kobe and Fisher were crying on the bench as the Spurs blew the Lakers out. Put Kobe on the Spurs and Duncan may well be playing for his 7th or 8th le right now. The Spurs are two freakish plays away from playing for 5 in a row right now.
Shaq has never done anything unless he had a Top 5 player as a teammate. That is not a sign of dominance. A dominant player was MJ who could win les with a borderline Top 10 player in Pippen and a bunch of role players. Shaq had some very mediocre teams in Orlando with him as the feature (even though he had Penny Hardaway). Duncan has never done worse than a Round 2 exit and even then it has always been to the team that won the WC.
wasnt this brought up in "05" championship
it comes up every finals
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