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Elliott Elliott Elliott!!!
Who Can Forget Number 6?
By ClipperSteve
Posted on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 12:10:07 PM PDT
There's lots of Clipper news out there, so of course I've decided to post about... the Spurs.
Seriously, there's not much in the way of 'new' news. Mobley's got a strained calf muscle and will miss most of camp (I imagine he's not too upset about missing two-a-days at the age of 32). In a related story, ClipperSteve pulled a hammy at ClipperMax's soccer practice on Monday. 44 is worse than 32. Kaman tweaked his low back and sat out the afternoon practice on Tuesday, and is day-to-day. (This one actually is of some concern. Has this guy ever had a problem free pre-season? Seems like he's always got some excuse entering the season, which the team then points to to explain his perennial slow start. If he has a slow start this season, it's over. Start collecting rabbits feet for the lottery party.) And Dan au appears to be inevitable. Both the LAT and the OCR are saying he'll be in camp this afternoon, after he clears waivers and assuming he passes a physical.
But then this little tidbit caught my eye; the Spurs are going to retire the jersey number of Avery Johnson. That's right - the Spurs are going to retire the jersey of a guy who averaged 8 points and 5.5 assists in his career. Whose career season high was 13 points per game. Now, I realize that Avery was a terrific floor leader for the Spurs (hence the Little General sobriquet) and that he was the starting point guard on their first le team. But COME ON. Don't you have to have some standards for retiring jerseys? Mario Elie was just as important to that first le, wasn't he?
A quick check of Spurs history shows a mixed bag. In March 2005, Sean Elliot became the 5th Spur to have his number retired. The four others? George Gervin, David Robinson, Johnny Moore and James Silas. Now, I have no argument with Gervin, Robinson or Elliot of course. Johnny Moore and James Silas are a little less obvious, but let's compare Moore to Avery Johnson.
Johnny Moore had four consecutive seasons where he averaged 9.6 or more assists beginning with his second season in the NBA. He led the league in assists per game in 81-82 and was in the top 5 three other seasons. And he was a contemporary of a guy named Magic Johnson and another guy named Isiah Thomas, so leading the league in assists per game meant a LOT. He was among the best point guards in the league during his brief career, which was cut tragically short when he was diagnosed with Valley Fever. He never played another full season.
Avery Johnson made up in mediocrity what Johnny Moore lacked in longevity. Avery had a single season where he averaged as many as 9.6 assists. The Spurs, now planning to retire his jersey, were so enamored of him in 1991 that they WAIVED him. They also let him leave via free agency twice after that, and we're not talking about huge money contracts here. In fact, it's unclear that he actually wore jersey number 6 in each of his stints with the team (I checked the media guide, but they did not list numbers). Which raises the question, do they have to retire multiple numbers? The brief article about his upcoming ceremony (Dec. 22, against the Clippers for some reason) makes a point of him spending 'all or part of 10 seasons' with the Spurs. Yeah, in three stretches because they never actually kept the guy. He didn't even finish his career with the team.
Now, maybe I've got a personal vendetta against him. I was pretty hacked off when he played his scrubs against the Warriors in a game that was crucial to the Clippers' slim playoff hopes late last season. But I'm trying to be objective. Databasebasketball.com has a little feature that compares players careers based purely on the numbers. Here are some players whose careers are similar to Avery Johnson's: Vern Fleming, Eric Show, Sedale Threatt, Muggsy Bogues, Jay Humphries, Sherman Douglas and Rory Sparrow. Think the Hornets are planning to retire Muggsy Bogues' jersey any time soon?
I realize that there's the 'championship team' argument that takes Muggsy Bogues and Sherman Douglas off the table (as if they were ever on it). But somebody had to be the 4th or 5th best player on that championship team, you know? If every NBA champion retired their top 4 or 5 players, you'd have BJ Armstrong, Steve Kerr and Luc Longley in the rafters in Chicago. , a few years from now, I suppose we could see Udonis Haslem in the rafters in Miami.
It's really surprising that the Spurs would do this now, with easily four players on their current roster whose numbers will have to be retired eventually. I mean, Duncan, Parker and Ginobili are no-brainers barring some sort of future scandal, and certainly if you retire Avery Johnson's number, you have to retire Bruce Bowen's. Unless they raise their standards, they're going to have to add a third digit around 2030.
Alvin Robertson (3 consecutive all-star teams with the Spurs), Artis Gilmore (2 all-star teams) and Larry Kenon (2 NBA all-star teams and 1 ABA all-star team) all would seem to be more obvious choices than Avery. , if Avery's going into the rafters, where's Mark Olberding and Billy Paultz?
I found one other interesting comparison in looking at the data. As it happens, another current NBA coach and former Spur had almost identical stats as a Spur as Avery Johnson's career numbers. In 1982, Mike Dunleavy Sr. averaged 7.8 points and 5.5 assists per game for San Antonio. No word yet on his jersey retirement ceremony. First someone has to go through the archival photos and figure out what number he wore.
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Who Can Forget Number 6? :: 2 Comments :: Post a Comment
Interesting Post
Hate to say it, but the low standard from the Spurs makes the Laker jerseys look very strong, with virtually all of them hall of famers. Anybody on Boston's list that doesn't really belong?
Maybe with the Spurs it's a middle of the country, or a Texas thing. But I doubt it. I think there must be a clubhouse and fan factor. The fact that he became a coach so quickly relates to my own vague impression that the whole was somehow greater than the sum of the parts, that his leadership, effort and general tenacity was a factor in getting the team over the hump of winning its first championship.
Funny about the Dunleavy stuff. But this actually makes me wonder about the Clippers. Brand is the only obvious guy. But the team is building towards actually retiring some jerseys someday. If Maggs has a big year and resigns, then he'll be a shoe-in as well--despite Dunleavy. But what about Sam Cassell? Dunleavy hurt him by driving the team into the ground last year, and Sam needed to stay healthy and lead another playoff run to help his cause. But if Cassell can lead the team in holding the fort until Brand comes back and the Clips have a great year, he might deserve some consideration. His impact two years ago was immense (and obviously it was statistically much better than A Johnson ever was)--he literally taught the team how to win. Lastly, if Kaman can show that he's not going to be a doofus for the next five years, he could draft off Brand and deserve consideration. We knew that Maggette, Cassell, and Kaman were key players for this first two months, but this raises the stakes--they could be playing for the rafters.
by zhivclip on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 01:01:51 PM PDT
Great entry ClipperSteve
Muggsy Bogues should have his jersey retired! Mourning, Larry Johnson, Johnny Newman, Dell Curry, Mike Gminski, Kenny Gattison. He led that team! Seriously though, some of those names you mentioned brought back some memories. Fleming had a pretty long career with the Pacers. Humphries played for a few teams but I remember him doing some good work for the Bucks when they had some nice teams in the late 80s and early 90s. Sherman the general! Lots of all-oops to Rony Seikley. (spelling) Both with the heat and the 'cuse. Sedale played for pretty much everybody, but I remember him hitting jumpers for the Lakers and Sonics. Rory played some for the Kings and Knicks right? And I grew up to Mario Elie. He played for the defunct WBL. (World Basketball league) I remember it was a summer league and the players had to be under 6'4. Very exciting league. He played for the Youngstown Pride. Since I grew up in that area..I got to meet him a whole bunch of times. Since I was a little kid at the time..I guess you could say Mario Elie was my hero. Ok I'm done with my trip down memory lane. Excellent post ClipperSteve!
by Googs on Wed Oct 03, 2007 at 05:06:18 PM PDT
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Another great SB Nation site
? 2006 SportsBlogs, Inc.
Elliott Elliott Elliott!!!
The obsession continues....
I thought Whottt was a Mavs fan.
Embarrassing. At least no one as lame as Johnson will ever have his jersy retired again. Maybe in a hundred years they can hide his behind some legitimate NBA stars' jerseys.
Avery Johnson was a hustling scrub. He was smart, and did good interviews and said the right things. Because of that, his nasty #6 is goin' up.
They usually do these after the game. I wonder if Tim will even stick around.
My guess is he will.
No matter how he feels about it.
He's a Spur, he's the leader of the Spurs, and he'll show the Team the respect.
If the organization wants to do this, he'll represent his Team.
I don't know. I guess anybody could argue if it's right or not. If fans look at his numbers then no, but his value to the team then possibly yes. It's nice for Avery to get this honor but I'm sure if the Spurs wouldn't have decided to retire his jersey he wouldn't feel disrespected.
I'm convinced this is some head game the Spurs are using for the Mavs-Spurs WCF matchup this upcoming year.
AJ up there with iceman and D Rob? Weak Sauce.
Last edited by Walter Craparita; 10-04-2007 at 12:58 AM.
I know I look for my Spurs news in Clipper blogs.
Tim Duncan not liking Avery Johnson is such a huge load of bs.......
Yeah being a great leader is bs.
i can see why you love aj... must be the same reason why you like beno. they both suck(ed)!
Timvp....
You can attack me as the face of the AJ hate all you want...
But if I had that kind of persuasive power Drob would be a no brainer top 5 C of all time...
The fact of the matter is, AJ makes his own enemies, he's burned his own bridges...and he's making his own bed.
It's all him...
And he is without a doubt, the most over-rated player in Spurs history.
He's a head, he always was kind of head, but he really became one after 99...and you are blind to it...stuck in the euphoria of 1999.
AJ was the little kid that got beat up by the bully every day and then one day he finally beat the bully up...to the cheers of everyone...
And then he became the new bully.
That's exactly what he did.
Reality.
He's getting his jersey up there...but it's not going to be pretty.
AJ better be at his sweet talking best when they hang that jersey...it's his last chance to do it the right way. He better say all the right things.......or that jersey hanging up there is going to be more of a curse than a blessing.
whottt on the same side as Sequ and some Clipper blogger. David Robinson, Sean Elliott, Gregg Popovich and Peter Holt on my side.
I'm pretty confident in my company.
nice read.
Think the Hornets are planning to retire Muggsy Bogues' jersey any time soon?
Sad when a Clippers fan knows more about the '99 le run than some self-appointed Spurs experts do.
Pop, Holt, Robinson, Elliott, etc. are "self-appointed Spurs experts"?
If Elie had AJ's tenure with the Spurs, his jersey probably would be retired, too. But he played here two years. The second of which he was all but done as an NBA player.
Spurs will have managed to have the least accomplished PG to ever have their number retired. I guess that's an accomplishment.
Not surprisingly, this entry is full of distortion:
Avery Johnson is not having his jersey retired for his entire career, he is having his jersey retired for his tenure AS A SPUR. Morons like this keep referring to his career average, which is irrelevant here.That's right - the Spurs are going to retire the jersey of a guy who averaged 8 points and 5.5 assists in his career.
Obviously Avery's stats aren't too impressive as a Spur either, but they're a lot more solid than his career numbers. And Avery's case is not a statistical one anyway.
Artis Gilmore routinely shot 60% for his career, George Gervin was a four time scoring champion, and Mike Mitc was a 20 point scorer for his career. And back in the '80's, scoring all over the league was up compared with the 1990s and official scorekeepers were handing out assists like there was a surplus of them down at the plant.Johnny Moore had four consecutive seasons where he averaged 9.6 or more assists beginning with his second season in the NBA. He led the league in assists per game in 81-82 and was in the top 5 three other seasons. And he was a contemporary of a guy named Magic Johnson and another guy named Isiah Thomas, so leading the league in assists per game meant a LOT. He was among the best point guards in the league during his brief career, which was cut tragically short when he was diagnosed with Valley Fever. He never played another full season.
But of course, no one ever examines context. Let's just look at the raw averages and be done with it, right?
And of course, that was the end of Avery Johnson's tenure in San Antonio.The Spurs, now planning to retire his jersey, were so enamored of him in 1991 that they WAIVED him.
Neither did almost every player who had a jersey retired by a team. Your point?Yeah, in three stretches because they never actually kept the guy. He didn't even finish his career with the team.
Databasebasketball.com has a little feature that compares players careers based purely on the numbers. Here are some players whose careers are similar to Avery Johnson's: Vern Fleming, Eric Show, Sedale Threatt, Muggsy Bogues, Jay Humphries, Sherman Douglas and Rory Sparrow. Think the Hornets are planning to retire Muggsy Bogues' jersey any time soon?I thought I'd isolate this part of the quote, bold it, and repeat it a few times just to illustrate how absurd this position is. Basically, this blogger suggests that the formula to retiring a jersey is that a player should average X points, Y rebounds, and Z assists for N years. That's it. Let us consider nothing else.Databasebasketball.com has a little feature that compares players careers based purely on the numbers.
Databasebasketball.com has a little feature that compares players careers based purely on the numbers.
Databasebasketball.com has a little feature that compares players careers based purely on the numbers.
Databasebasketball.com has a little feature that compares players careers based purely on the numbers.
That's ing hogwash.
In fact, I'll stop here because every argument he makes is tied to this stupid idea. I've wasted too much time on it as it is.
Too bad for Vaughn didn't play for the Spurs in the 90s. He would have beat out Avery for the starting position and could have had his number retired instead.
Del Negro better get his number raised. If not, racism!
Tim will play nice, but you know exactly what word he'll be thinking every time he looks up and sees #6 in the rafters...
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