Death of the Traditional Center?

[duncan228]

To spin off the "Is Duncan a Power Foward or a Center" thread, I found this. I don't usually post blogs but I thought this was too interesting a debate to bury in a thread that's pretty much done. (If I made a mistake and it belongs in that thread I apologize.)

Your thoughts?

http://www.411mania.com/sports/nba/6...al-Center?.htm

Death of the Traditional Center?
Posted by Todd Spehr

As the NBA goes smaller and faster, the traditional center is becoming a thing of the past. With the steady decline of Shaquille O'Neal coupled with the recent rule changes, there is a new type of big man in the league. So where did all dominant big men go?

Several weeks ago I was wracking my brain and pouring over endless statistics putting together my top ten fantasy center list, and looking at the final draft it dawned on me that the list was made up of makeshift centers, a heap of players playing out of position. To be a tad more specific, eight of the ten players could pass easily for power forwards instead of centers. The only two true centers? Shaquille ‘The Last Great Center' O'Neal and Yao Ming. The traditional slow-it-down, pound-it-low, grind-it-out center of basically the last forty-five years of hoops is like one of those animals fighting off an inevitable extinction. Smaller players – well, if you call 6'9'' to 6'11'' smaller – are being asked to play bigger spots, and in many ways, are playing bigger. The trend can be traced to roughly two things: 1) The NBA, in the last five years, has fine-tuned the rules (introducing the zone, hands-off D, etc) to cater to a faster brand of ball; why wait for your center to lumber up the floor when you can get a 3-on-2 break? And 2) Every team insists on becoming Phoenix 2.0 (Washington and Golden State are two standout examples) and are running and gunning their way to respectability. The game has quickened. The game is faster. The traditional center is dying.

There once was a time in the league – 1976 to 2002 if you want to be ultra-technical – where every non-Jordan le team had a dominant center. Now, there are multiple sidebars to that, one telling you just how good Michael Jordan was to lead Bill ‘Elbows' Cartwright and Luc Longley to separate three-peats; the other telling you that yes, while Detroit's Bill Laimbeer was never a dominant force, he did annoy the absolute crap out of more opponents than any player in league history and was your classic foxhole guy: you hate him, but you'd want him on your team. As for the rest, well, to look at every championship team in that span, there's not a stiff among them. The three-peat Lakers had Shaq, the lockout Spurs had Robinson, the Rockets with Olajuwon, Abdul-Jabbar in LA, Parish in Boston, Malone in Philly, Sikma in Seattle, Unseld in Washington, Walton in Portland and Cowens in Boston. Golden State rode Rick Barry in '75 (one of the most underrated great seasons in NBA history, but that's another column) to be the last non-center team to claim a le in more than thirty-something years. Normally, you could point to any decade in league history and reel off five great centers; can you do that in the post-Mike era?

To make matters worse, in the last five NBA seasons, you could make a case that not one le team has possessed a dominant center.

In '03, David Robinson was on his very last legs, a very different player from even the '99 version of Robinson. He played just 64 games and averaged 8.5 points, by far a career low (Note: his performance in the clincher vs. New Jersey was a strict once-off). In '04, the Pistons relied on perhaps one of the most balanced teams in league history - one of those no-individual-is-greater-than-the-whole teams - who were anchored by Ben Wallace, a modern-day watered down version of Bill Russell (correction: an impoverished man's Bill Russell) without the psychological warfare nor the total opposition intimidation, but still, while Wallace was destructive on defense he didn't have a clue anywhere else. In '05, the Spurs had Rasho Nesterovic and Nazr Mohammed and still managed to overcome their deficiencies to win. In '06 the Heat did have O'Neal – who, by the way, was All-NBA First team in name only, he basically made that based on lack of compe ion - but he wasn't the dominant Shaq, he wasn't Laker Shaq, nor was he even the MVP runner-up of a season before. For the first time in his career he was content to defer to another player (Dwyane Wade) and anyone who saw O'Neal in the Finals against Dallas knows that he wasn't a dominant force anymore. Yes, when healthy, he still warrants constant double-teams, but when was he last healthy and/or in shape? And just imagine: Dallas really should've put Miami away in the Finals, and they had DeSagana Diop and Erick Dampier! Last season, the Spurs had Fabricio Oberto and Francisco Elson at center, although they also employed a Duncan-and-four-smalls offensive alignment for stretches simply because just about every team in the league now prefers to speed things up.

So while recent history doesn't associate dominant centers with championships, either do the statistical leaders. Since '96, when Olajuwon finished second to MJ in scoring, Amare Stoudemire is the only center not named Diesel who has landed in the top five in any of the eleven seasons since, finishing fifth in ‘05. (Prior to that, the last time a center missed the top five? 1989. And today's era is not unlike that of the mid-to-late ‘80s in regards to statistics, when the game was strictly dominated by guards and small forwards.) There were eleven starting centers that averaged less than ten points per game last season, and the average PPG of the entire starting center list was just 12.2. Even the rebounding le has been claimed by a power forward (Kevin Garnett) in each of the last four years. And other than O'Neal – seeing a trend here? – name another center who will physically overpower you? You won't. Stoudemire will, yes, dunk everything, but his timid/lackadaisical nature on the defensive end doesn't put fear in anyone. Yao is predominantly a jump-shooting center (and a fine one at that) so he won't stay in the post all night. Gasol is a face-the-basket type who uses the baseline as well as anybody, not to mention his middle name just has to be finesse. Perhaps the only guy who shows flashes of a young O'Neal is Dwight Howard who, at 21 years of age, has future (if not now) beast written all over him.

And the characteristics of these "new" centers are a far cry from the usual back-to-the-basket stuff. Posting up has been replaced by the high pick-n-roll; the hook is strictly a fighting term; any skills on the block have been traded in for a perimeter game. And the rules don't help. Ever since the zone came in several years back basically everyone but Shaq and Yao – the only guys now who have a post game and actually use it – became some form of a perimeter player. Because you can double a guy without the ball, stick a man on his hip and on his back, posting up currently resides in our memories of Olajuwon and Abdul-Jabbar, by far two of the finest post players ever, along with Kevin McHale. And yes, Tim Duncan still spends a lot of time down low, but remember he's a power forward. The durability of these guys is just atrocious as well, which makes no sense because they are actually banging less. Four of my top five fantasy centers (Stoudemire, Yao, Gasol and O'Neal) all have sub-60 games played seasons in the last couple of years. And with the success of Dallas, Phoenix and Golden State in recent times, this trend is sure to continue as teams aim to get smaller and faster (which is debatable in the first place, considering no "small-ball" team has won a le) in order to compete.

In the meantime, the center position is evolving into the new power forward spot; 40 is the new 30.

[tlongII]

Greg Oden

[urunobili]

good find man... it is a really intelligent analysis...

[duncan228]

good find man... it is a really intelligent analysis...

Thanks. I thought it had its merits. Worth posting to see what people thought.

FromWayDowntown are you out there?
Solid D?
timvp?
All the rest of the incredible basketball minds we are so fortunate to have on the board?

I'm really interested to hear what people think of this one.

[Reggie Miller]

It is my personal belief that as the height requirements for center increased, the talent pool both shrank and became diluted. (This may sound contradictory, but bear with me.)

1. There are only so many men 19-50 over 7' tall in the world at any given time. This is obviously a very small number.

2. For some reason known only to themselves, NBA GMs and college recruiters will take a guy who is 7'2" and can barely play over a 6'9" guy who can. (I am exaggerating to make a point, but I don't think that's too far off.)

3. Many men over 7' tall do not even begin playing basketball until it becomes obvious they are going to be behemoths, or much later than many smaller players who make the NBA. How many times have you heard this about "project" big men? In contrast, I have never heard anyone say, "We recruited X heavily with the idea of working him into our system after he took his growth spurt and hit 6'5"..."

4. Meanwhile, the guys who could play and were "only" over 6'7" or so became power forwards, instead of centers.

5. In addition to the rule changes mentioned in the blog post, the 3 point shot made it less attractive to always pound the ball into the low block. Recall that the ABA was always short of talented big men, who tended to go to the NBA. No doubt, this played a role in the evolution of subsequent offensive schemes/strategies.

6. The net result has been that expectations for the center position have been lowered, and performance has declined.

7. Additionally, it is probably incorrect to think of the center situation from the late 1980s to late 1990s as "normative." In other words, having that many good centers around 7' tall in the NBA at once was the anomaly, not the situation today. I have no idea how many men between 19-50 and 7' tall or over are living in the world today. Obviously, it is a small number that fluctuates from year to year. It is possible that there just aren't 30 or more truly "big" big men, who can ball, in the world today.

[duncan228]

Interesting take Reggie.

[Reggie Miller]

Interesting take Reggie.

Thanks. I still don't feel like I have adequately explained the death of the low post game, though. That really confuses me, but all of the three point shooting is probably part of the equation. (By this I mean that nothing would prevent a 6'9" PF from developing a low post game if he wanted to do so.)

[thispego]

To spin off the "Is Duncan a Power Foward or a Center" thread, I found this. I don't usually post blogs but I thought this was too interesting a debate to bury in a thread that's pretty much done. (If I made a mistake and it belongs in that thread I apologize.)

Your thoughts?

http://www.411mania.com/sports/nba/6...al-Center?.htm

Death of the Traditional Center?
Posted by Todd Spehr

As the NBA goes smaller and faster, the traditional center is becoming a thing of the past. With the steady decline of Shaquille O'Neal coupled with the recent rule changes, there is a new type of big man in the league. So where did all dominant big men go?

Several weeks ago I was wracking my brain and pouring over endless statistics putting together my top ten fantasy center list, and looking at the final draft it dawned on me that the list was made up of makeshift centers, a heap of players playing out of position. To be a tad more specific, eight of the ten players could pass easily for power forwards instead of centers. The only two true centers? Shaquille ‘The Last Great Center' O'Neal and Yao Ming. The traditional slow-it-down, pound-it-low, grind-it-out center of basically the last forty-five years of hoops is like one of those animals fighting off an inevitable extinction. Smaller players – well, if you call 6'9'' to 6'11'' smaller – are being asked to play bigger spots, and in many ways, are playing bigger. The trend can be traced to roughly two things: 1) The NBA, in the last five years, has fine-tuned the rules (introducing the zone, hands-off D, etc) to cater to a faster brand of ball; why wait for your center to lumber up the floor when you can get a 3-on-2 break? And 2) Every team insists on becoming Phoenix 2.0 (Washington and Golden State are two standout examples) and are running and gunning their way to respectability. The game has quickened. The game is faster. The traditional center is dying.

There once was a time in the league – 1976 to 2002 if you want to be ultra-technical – where every non-Jordan le team had a dominant center. Now, there are multiple sidebars to that, one telling you just how good Michael Jordan was to lead Bill ‘Elbows' Cartwright and Luc Longley to separate three-peats; the other telling you that yes, while Detroit's Bill Laimbeer was never a dominant force, he did annoy the absolute crap out of more opponents than any player in league history and was your classic foxhole guy: you hate him, but you'd want him on your team. As for the rest, well, to look at every championship team in that span, there's not a stiff among them. The three-peat Lakers had Shaq, the lockout Spurs had Robinson, the Rockets with Olajuwon, Abdul-Jabbar in LA, Parish in Boston, Malone in Philly, Sikma in Seattle, Unseld in Washington, Walton in Portland and Cowens in Boston. Golden State rode Rick Barry in '75 (one of the most underrated great seasons in NBA history, but that's another column) to be the last non-center team to claim a le in more than thirty-something years. Normally, you could point to any decade in league history and reel off five great centers; can you do that in the post-Mike era?

To make matters worse, in the last five NBA seasons, you could make a case that not one le team has possessed a dominant center.

In '03, David Robinson was on his very last legs, a very different player from even the '99 version of Robinson. He played just 64 games and averaged 8.5 points, by far a career low (Note: his performance in the clincher vs. New Jersey was a strict once-off). In '04, the Pistons relied on perhaps one of the most balanced teams in league history - one of those no-individual-is-greater-than-the-whole teams - who were anchored by Ben Wallace, a modern-day watered down version of Bill Russell (correction: an impoverished man's Bill Russell) without the psychological warfare nor the total opposition intimidation, but still, while Wallace was destructive on defense he didn't have a clue anywhere else. In '05, the Spurs had Rasho Nesterovic and Nazr Mohammed and still managed to overcome their deficiencies to win. In '06 the Heat did have O'Neal – who, by the way, was All-NBA First team in name only, he basically made that based on lack of compe ion - but he wasn't the dominant Shaq, he wasn't Laker Shaq, nor was he even the MVP runner-up of a season before. For the first time in his career he was content to defer to another player (Dwyane Wade) and anyone who saw O'Neal in the Finals against Dallas knows that he wasn't a dominant force anymore. Yes, when healthy, he still warrants constant double-teams, but when was he last healthy and/or in shape? And just imagine: Dallas really should've put Miami away in the Finals, and they had DeSagana Diop and Erick Dampier! Last season, the Spurs had Fabricio Oberto and Francisco Elson at center, although they also employed a Duncan-and-four-smalls offensive alignment for stretches simply because just about every team in the league now prefers to speed things up.

So while recent history doesn't associate dominant centers with championships, either do the statistical leaders. Since '96, when Olajuwon finished second to MJ in scoring, Amare Stoudemire is the only center not named Diesel who has landed in the top five in any of the eleven seasons since, finishing fifth in ‘05. (Prior to that, the last time a center missed the top five? 1989. And today's era is not unlike that of the mid-to-late ‘80s in regards to statistics, when the game was strictly dominated by guards and small forwards.) There were eleven starting centers that averaged less than ten points per game last season, and the average PPG of the entire starting center list was just 12.2. Even the rebounding le has been claimed by a power forward (Kevin Garnett) in each of the last four years. And other than O'Neal – seeing a trend here? – name another center who will physically overpower you? You won't. Stoudemire will, yes, dunk everything, but his timid/lackadaisical nature on the defensive end doesn't put fear in anyone. Yao is predominantly a jump-shooting center (and a fine one at that) so he won't stay in the post all night. Gasol is a face-the-basket type who uses the baseline as well as anybody, not to mention his middle name just has to be finesse. Perhaps the only guy who shows flashes of a young O'Neal is Dwight Howard who, at 21 years of age, has future (if not now) beast written all over him.

And the characteristics of these "new" centers are a far cry from the usual back-to-the-basket stuff. Posting up has been replaced by the high pick-n-roll; the hook is strictly a fighting term; any skills on the block have been traded in for a perimeter game. And the rules don't help. Ever since the zone came in several years back basically everyone but Shaq and Yao – the only guys now who have a post game and actually use it – became some form of a perimeter player. Because you can double a guy without the ball, stick a man on his hip and on his back, posting up currently resides in our memories of Olajuwon and Abdul-Jabbar, by far two of the finest post players ever, along with Kevin McHale. And yes, Tim Duncan still spends a lot of time down low, but remember he's a power forward. The durability of these guys is just atrocious as well, which makes no sense because they are actually banging less. Four of my top five fantasy centers (Stoudemire, Yao, Gasol and O'Neal) all have sub-60 games played seasons in the last couple of years. And with the success of Dallas, Phoenix and Golden State in recent times, this trend is sure to continue as teams aim to get smaller and faster (which is debatable in the first place, considering no "small-ball" team has won a le) in order to compete.

In the meantime, the center position is evolving into the new power forward spot; 40 is the new 30.

I seldom post blogs but I thought this was well written and interesting.
(I didn't say I agree with everything he says!)

http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/warri...-spurs-own-us/

Six Reasons the Spurs Own Us
By Adam Lauridsen

The Warriors may own the Mavs, but there’s another Texas team that owns us. Even during our finer moments of basketball, the current Warriors squad has looked awful against the Spurs. Their strengths seem to play directly to our weaknesses. Tonight’s game against San Antonio doesn’t count – and it likely won’t be with full strength rosters – but it’s as good a place as any to start talking about the soft underbelly of the Nellie-ball style we know and (most of us) love.

Some of the reasons San Antonio owns us are simple:

Tim Duncan – When he’s healthy, he’s as quick as our light guys and far stronger than anyone we can throw at him. He’s comfortable working with his back to the basket and swats away double teams like gnats. While Boozer over-powered us in the playoffs, Duncan’s domination is something greater. He beats us largely at our own game. He’s a big guy who is fast enough, smart enough, and versatile enough to counter whatever Nellie throws at him. He might not be the best player in the league anymore, but he’s certainly the hardest for the Warriors to handle.

Patience – The ugliest but most dangerous part of Pop’s system with the Spurs is their willingness to wait out defenses. While Parker and Ginobili will force the issue at times (with success often, since both are great going to the hole), the team as a whole is happy to pass the ball around for 22 seconds until they get a good look. It’s a system that relies upon solid passers, deep shooters, and a faith that a shot will materialize if you give the defense long enough to get jittery. The Warriors’ frantic style plays right into their hands. We run all over the place. They swing the ball back and forth. When someone finally misses a rotation, they know it before we do. Points usually follow, as do Warriors losses.

Perimeter speed – This is one area where we might actually have a better shot this year. Parker and Davis always enjoy squaring off against each other. Parker is faster, Davis is stronger. Parker goes to the hoop, Baron backs Parker down. The problem for the Warriors is that Parker’s drives usually result in lay-ups or dishes out the three point line for open shots. Baron’s post-up moves typically result in over-dribbling and produce turnovers as often as points. Given the systems of the two teams, I give a slight advantage to Parker in the match-up (although I’d still take Davis given the choice if I was starting a team, unless of course I was choosing a team of shameless whining floppers). At the off-guard, however, the Spurs had a huge advantage with Ginobili’s slippery speed compared to Richardson’s less than spry defensive coverage. When we switched over to Ellis, what we gained in speed we lost in height. Azuibuike, however, might be the answer this year. He brings strength, speed, and size to the perimeter. I haven’t watched Kelenna’s defense closely enough to know how good he is (or can be), but if he squares off against Manu Thursday night it should be a good early test.

When you get past these three areas, however, there are some deeper issues at play in the Spurs’ dominance of our fair franchise.

The pupil bests the master – Nelson and Popovich are, by reputation, best friends. Pop gained his NBA break under Nellie and hasn’t slowed down since. In terms of style, however, Pop’s system plays almost like a direct rejection of everything Nelson loves. When Nellie runs, Pop walks. The Warriors go small, the Spurs go big. Positions are a joke on the Warriors, but roles are written on stone tablets with the Spurs. Nellie loves to push the issue and see what happens, Pop runs an offense like clockworks and almost always knows what’s coming. They both bring cranky personalities to the job, but while Pop channels the military academy, Nelson exudes Maui. Nelson gained a lot of praise for out-coaching Avery during the playoffs. Whenever the Warriors lose to the Spurs, he should also catch flack for being shown up by a system designed directly in opposition to his own. These are brilliant basketball minds that know each others’ games in and out. It’s Pop, however, who seems to be able to turn that knowledge into wins. (Of course, that Duncan guy helps a bit as well.)

Refs favor big men – Forget what Shaq says. In my experience, when push comes to shove, warnings turn to whistles more often when you’re a big man on the block than when you’re a little guy going down the lane. I can’t demonstrate it with a Mark Cuban chart, but refs seem to operate under the assumption that when a little guy goes into the lane, he should expect to be hit. When a big man posts up a little guy, however, the little guy often isn’t allowed to return the favor. Grabbing and clawing almost always result in whistles in that case, as the often-undersized Warriors know too well. Duncan is a master at getting to the foul line and he seems to do it at will against the Warriors. Even lesser skilled bigs like Horry and Oberto seem to give us trouble. Until we get a power forward that actually looks and plays like a traditional power forward, it’s a problem we’re likely to have against the Spurs and the Jazz of the league.

The Spurs get dirty, we get technicals – Any debate as to whether the Spurs really are a dirty team should have been silenced against the Suns last year. They’re dirty and they’re damn good at it. Unfortunately, Baron and Jax play with a finely tuned sense of justice. When they get kicked by Bowen or elbowed by Ginobili, they squawk. And as is the habit in the NBA, it’s the retaliation, not the first strike, that gets the refs’ attention. Guys like Bowen and Horry are so good at what they do because they generate intensely distracting emotion for their opponents without suc bing to it themselves. Sure, the game would be better without these types of shenanigans, but they’re not likely to disappear anytime soon. And until then, the Spurs will keep winning.

Given these six issues, I’m shocked that the Warriors ever beat the Spurs. That said, I’ve had a creeping feeling ever since the Finals that the Spurs run may finally be over. The supporting cast is getting older, although they’ve restocked with some younger talent. The NBA should be paying closer attention to Bowen and Horry, although that didn’t stop them from bringing home more rings last year. The deciding factor for me, however, is Duncan’s health. He’s simply not the force he was a few years ago and seems to be accelerating on the downward slope. He’s still an All-NBA player, but he’s dominating fewer games for fewer minutes as the years progress. If he goes down to injury in the spring, there’s no way the Spurs survive the amazingly compe ive West. As Warriors fans, we fret over the fate of our franchise riding on Davis’ shoulders. While we picked a particularly fragile beast of burden, we’re not alone in being one blown knee away from a lost season.

About the author:
Adam Lauridsen is an attorney. He's followed the Warriors, through good times and bad, for the past two decades. Fast Break aims to track the trends of the Warriors' season, break down game strategies, and give Warriors fans a place to celebrate victories and complain about losses.

Email Adam at [email protected]

I don't usually post blogs, but I thought this could be fun for conversation.

http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/...d-players.html

Pro Basketball's Most Decorated Players
posted by David Friedman

This article was originally published at NBCSports.com on 2/25/07; it has been updated to include the 2006-07 season

It is difficult enough to compare the statistics of two players from the same era and the task becomes that much more challenging when it involves players whose careers are separated by decades. Sure, it is possible to parse the raw numbers into per minute calculations and attempt to factor in variables such as pace, but how realistic is it to compare shooting percentages or rebounding averages when the rules, arena conditions and size/speed of the players have all changed so dramatically?

One interesting thing to consider is how a player was viewed during his own era. If someone is a dominant figure for an extended period of time then this largely validates his claim to greatness. It is possible to roughly ascertain how dominant a player was (or at least was perceived to be) by looking at how many MVPs he won and how many times he made the All-League Team. Why "All-League" as opposed to "All-NBA"? Simple--I am including both All-NBA and All-ABA selections, just like pro football historians consider NFL and AFL accomplishments in the same breath (the AFL’s Joe Namath is recognized as the first player to pass for more than 4000 yards in a season). If you think that the ABA was just some sideshow league then you are sorely mistaken. Check out the All-NBA first and second teams in 1976-77, the first post-merger season: four of the ten players first starred in the ABA, a very disproportionate representation by the upstart league considering the small number of teams that it possessed.

Recognition for a solid decade as being the best at your position is a strong indication that a player stands out above his contemporaries. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar achieved that and then some. He is probably better known to the younger generation as a mentor to the Lakers’ Andrew Bynum but Abdul-Jabbar’s name should always be on the short list of players who can legitimately stake a claim to being the greatest of all-time. He won a record six MVP awards, made the All-NBA team a record 15 times in 20 seasons and made the All-NBA first team 10 times, just one shy of Karl Malone’s standard in that category. Abdul-Jabbar finished third in MVP balloting in his rookie season, won the honor after his second and third campaigns, and did not finish lower than fifth in the balloting until his 13th season. In other words, from the moment he entered the league until the time that he was a 35 year old veteran he was considered to rank among the best of the best. No other player has been that highly regarded for that many consecutive seasons.

Karl Malone holds the record for most All-NBA first team selections with 11; he and Abdul-Jabbar are two of the seven players who earned at least 10 All-League first team selections. Malone won a pair of MVPs and is one of just 13 pro basketball players who have won multiple MVPs.

Bill Russell, the greatest winner in North American team sports history (11 NBA les in 13 seasons after winning two NCAA championships and an Olympic gold medal) won five MVPs but made the All-NBA first team just three times. Playing at the same time as Wilt Chamberlain can do that to you (for what it’s worth, the players voted for MVP at that time and the media voted for the All-NBA teams). Russell received eight nods for the second team, while Chamberlain nearly reversed Russell’s numbers with seven selections to the first team and three to the second team.

Russell deservedly gets a lot of credit for the Celtics’ nearly annual championship runs in the 1950s and 1960s, but Bob Cousy--the point guard on several of those teams--made the All-NBA team 12 times, including 10 first team selections. At 6-1 he is the shortest player to reach those milestones. Cousy won the MVP award in 1957, Russell’s rookie year and the first season that Boston won an NBA le.

Michael Jordan is the only other five-time MVP winner. He could have added to his 10 All-NBA first team selections by not retiring in 1993 and again in 1999. Jordan made the second team as a rookie and then became a decade-long fixture on the first team, missing the cut only when he broke his foot in 1986 and when he took a sabbatical from 1993-95 to play baseball. Jordan’s six Finals MVPs are unprecedented and that record will be even tougher to break than Abdul-Jabbar’s regular season tally.

Julius Erving is well regarded for his mid-air theatrics but many people do not realize how great his all-around game was. This is largely because he spent his prime physical years (ages 21-26) in the ABA, which did not have a big time national television contract. His statistics from those seasons literally don’t exist in some record books because the NBA does not consider ABA numbers to be "official." If Larry Bird’s career were treated similarly he would have one fewer MVP and five fewer All-NBA first team selections. Erving earned selection to an All-ABA or All-NBA team 12 times in 16 seasons, including nine times as a first teamer. He won four MVPs, the same as Chamberlain and trailing only Abdul-Jabbar, Russell and Michael Jordan.

Only three active players appear on the lists of most MVPs won or most All-League selections: Shaquille O’Neal, Tim Duncan and Steve Nash. O’Neal has been an Abdul-Jabbar-like fixture on the All-NBA teams, making the cut in 13 of his 15 seasons--every time but his rookie season and the 2006-07 season. He has been helped a bit in this regard by the addition of a third All-NBA team in 1989 (three of his selections were third team nods). Despite his well chronicled dominance and the vital role that he has played on four championship teams, O’Neal has only won a single MVP award. It used to be suggested that the voters tired of giving Jordan the award every year even though he was the best player; O’Neal’s lack of multiple MVP trophies can be explained by a couple factors: voters looking for an excuse to vote for an underdog candidate and O’Neal’s tendency to get injuries that limit his conditioning and number of games played during the regular season. It should also be noted that O’Neal has won three Finals MVP awards.

Duncan has won two MVPs and three Finals MVPs. He has already earned nine All-NBA first team selections and one second team honor. Duncan will turn 32 during the 2007-08 season and if he can stay healthy for a few more years he could make a run at the marks set by Abdul-Jabbar and Karl Malone for total All-League selections and most first team selections.

Nash is a relative newcomer to elite status, winning his two MVPs in 2005 and 2006. He has made the All-NBA team five times--three as a member of the first team--and has too much ground to make up to earn a spot on the list of players who have earned the most All-League selections. However, if he wins his third MVP this season Nash will join a very elite group whose members differ from him in two ways: they all stand at least 6-6 (Nash is listed at 6-3); they all (with the possible exception of Moses Malone) have been mentioned in national publications at one time or another as a contender for the le of greatest player of all-time.

Kobe Bryant has earned nine All-NBA selections--including five to the first team--meaning that he has a good chance to rack up a total of 12 or more before he retires. It is possible, albeit less likely, that he will match his idol Magic Johnson with nine first team selections. Kevin Garnett has made the All-NBA team eight times, Allen Iverson has earned seven All-NBA selections and Jason Kidd has done it six times but is tied with Bryant and trails only O’Neal and Duncan among active players with five first team selections. Gary Payton does not figure to add to his career total of nine All-NBA selections, seven of which were to the second or third teams.

Pro Basketball's Honor Roll

Most Regular Season MVPs

Player...MVPs

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar...6
Bill Russell...5
Michael Jordan...5
Wilt Chamberlain...4
Julius Erving...4*
Moses Malone...3
Larry Bird...3
Magic Johnson...3
Bob Pet ...2
Mel Daniels...2^
Karl Malone...2
Tim Duncan...2
Steve Nash...2

* 1 NBA, 3 ABA
^ 2 ABA


Most All-League 1st Team Selections

Player...1st Team

Karl Malone...11
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar...10
Elgin Baylor...10
Bob Cousy...10
Michael Jordan...10
Bob Pet ...10
Jerry West...10
Rick Barry...9^^
Larry Bird...9
Tim Duncan...9
Julius Erving...9**
Magic Johnson...9
Oscar Robertson...9

^^ 5 NBA, 4 ABA
** 5 NBA, 4 ABA

Most All-League Selections

Player...Total...1st Team...2nd Team...3rd Team

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar...15...10...5...0
Karl Malone...14...11...2...1
Shaquille O'Neal...13...8...2...3
Bob Cousy...12...10...2...0
Julius Erving...12...9**...3***...0
Hakeem Olajuwon...12...6...3...3
Dolph Schayes...12...6...6...0
Jerry West...12...10...2...0

** 5 NBA, 4 ABA
*** 2 NBA, 1 ABA

Notes: NBA MVP first awarded after 1955-56
season; All-NBA Third Team first selected
after 1988-89 season.

I don't usually post blogs.
But since this was about Duncan and since it deals with the age old question of who you'd pick to build a franchise around, I am throwing it out here.

It appears to be some kind of countdown, Duncan at #4.
There are links to Carmelo Anthony for #5 and Steve Nash for #6. (I didn't read them.)

Being the Duncan fan I am I like what he says. There's nothing new but I like reading positive stuff on Duncan.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/...t-cornerstone/

The Summer of Answers: Tim Duncan is the 4th Biggest Cornerstone
by Tom Ziller

The Summer of Answers takes on every NBA question you've ever wanted to ask ... such as, "Which player would you build a franchise around?"

You could make a 'Tim Duncan for MVP' case every season this decade. (He has two such trophies.) Not only has The Big Fundamental made the playoffs every season of his career, he's been the Spurs' best player on both ends of the floor every single campaign. Ten seasons of hard work, four rings, three Finals MVPs. This dude craps gold. But, as you may have heard... he's kind-of a dork. Dorks don't sell merchandise, unfortunately. But does it matter?

Pros: There really isn't a whole lot to say here. The definition of double-double. (Well, one of the definitions of double-double.) One season he dropped below 20 points per game; another season he slipped under 11 rebounds. He's dependable, playing 95% of his possible 788 regular season games. And he's averaged almost 38 minutes a game -- a lot of time for a big. He's the best post defender since Bill Russell. (Eight all-defense first team nods.) And the whole 'consummate pro, coachable superstar, incredible teammate, devoid of visible ego' thing.

Cons: Screw jersey hucksters. There's only one thing keeping Duncan this far off the peak of this list: He's 31 years old. He's racked up 33,000 minutes including the postseason. But again: He's been healthy. Even in the past two years, as he's assumedly aged -- he only missed four games. Duncan's probably good for seven more seasons, and he'll probably start dropping off within three. That assures better current options to build a longterm contender, sadly. But be discerning in choosing just any old 'next great hope' or risk watching TD and his Spurs sip some more Krug.

Final Verdict: No candidates have the pedigree as a franchise anchor... but a few are younger, and the age/potential combination boosts them above Big Fun. (No worries: Duncan wouldn't care, anyway.) Duncan could very well be the most underrated GOAT candidate of all time. The MUGOAT? Sounds like something from the D&D Monster Manual... which would probably suit TD just fine, actually.

but what?

[duncan228]

but what?

Boy, you must have a lot of time on your hands.

I don't usually post blogs.
You found 4 in over 2300 posts, I don't know how many threads I've started.

If I find one I think is good for conversation I post it.
And yes, I preface it by saying I don't usually post blogs.

I've noticed that not too many people post blogs here, I figured it was the right thing to do to give people a heads up that it wasn't a "professional" writer.

[thispego]

haha, nah i'm just razzin ya for brown nosing FWDT, SolidD, and timvp

[ShoogarBear]

One of Arthur Miller's least known plays.

[duncan228]

haha, nah i'm just razzin ya for brown nosing FWDT, SolidD, and timvp

Call it what you want, I mentioned a few by name and called out the rest of the high basketball IQ heads on this board.

I think this blog had some merit. At the least, it's an interesting take after the Duncan PF or Center conversation. I want to hear other opinions.
Yours too.

[duncan228]

One of Arthur Miller's least known plays.

[Reggie Miller]

One of Arthur Miller's least known plays.

Along with The Cruciate Ligament, a tale of lies and betrayal set in a New England emergency room.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

One of Arthur Miller's least known plays.

He touched on a similar theme in All My Suns, as well.

[Bruno]

You have too the big stiff factor.

When you have few great traditional centers, teams need to have a player to defend them. You have very few talented true centers because there is few 7" who plays BB so most teams end up with a big stiff. It's not a coincidence that players like Rasho or Foyle get monster contracts in the Shaq area.

When great centers are gone, big stiffs are gone too because some teams realized that you don't need to have a big stiff and put a more talented player. Remaining big stiffs are over matched by quicker players and are less interesting.

3 years ago, there were more true centers but 90% of them were just big stiffs. the decline of Shaq has had as consequence the decline of the Shaq stoppers who were mainly big but non talented players.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Greg Oden

not playing until 2008, and even then who knows if he will ever be any good after that major surgery

[Solid D]

What is a Traditional Center anyway other than the guy that's bigger than all the other guys?

There are more tall, athletic players than ever before in the NBA. In today's NBA, there is one thing in common to the NBA of 30-40 years ago: Tall players have an advantage in the paint offensively and defensively due to their height and length.

Classic big men of the 1960s such as Russell, Chamberlain, Embrey, Thurmond, Lanier, and Reed could play above the rim but they were fewer and farther between. There was typically not more than one 6'10" player on each team playing on the floor at the same time. There were a few exceptions like when the Warriors went big with Chamberlain and Thurmond.

Kevin Garnett is roughly Nate Thurmond, sizewise. KG is a little taller. Wilt Chamberlain at 7'1" 275 dominated everyone physically, including Russell, and he was like the adult at the playground against all the kids on the 8 foot rims. In the 1960s, the average height of a male US Citizen was 5'8" and there were far fewer 7 footers than there are today. 6'10"+ players clearly had a "View From Above" in the NBA so they jumped center and ruled the paint. I saw a stat a couple of years ago, maybe 2004, that showed Matt Harpring was the average NBA player in size at 6'7.5" and 230 lbs., or thereabouts.

The lines are less clear today on who is a classic center. Many more players can play above the rim. Basketball offenses are not designed around one Center in the majority of cases anyways. Many of the offenses, past and present, are based on the premise of 2 post players and 3 perimeter players, or more specifically 2 post players, 2 wing players and a lead guard. Even in a 4-out, 1-in offense, the other post player who sets up on the perimeter can be used to high screen for perimeter shooters or downscreen for the Big on the low post and switch places, thus becoming the new low post Big. The age-old Flex offense that has been talked about in this Forum, because it is what Magnano ran with the Argentina NT, isn't based on one true Center or post player.

Pat Riley compares Tim Duncan to Kareem and classifies them both as "finesse post players". In every day coach-speak, he doesn't call them finesse Centers, he just calls them what they are in basketball terms. In my view, there will always be dominant players but with so many players able to play above the rim now, the exception has almost become the "below the rim" players. The baskets have stayed 10 feet high for decades. Traditional Centers were mismatches. NBA coaches and players love mismatches, whenever they can get them.

[duncan228]

Thanks Solid D. Appreciate your take.
I've got to digest it all.
For some reason this topic caught me.

Oh...I love the "finesse post players".

[FromWayDowntown]

To build off of Solid D's thoughts, I think Shaq has changed the way that people perceive the structure of the center position. Some people seem to expect that centers (traditional centers, anyway) will be the sort of physically-dominant, overpowering brutes that Shaq is. That, to me, discredits Shaq to some extent and creates unrealistic expectations for those who might otherwise be considered centers in the NBA. Shaq is a once-in-lifetime force of nature -- a truly massive man who is blessed with exceptional, exceptional athleticism for a person of such stature.

Even the great centers of the last generation (David, Hakeem, Patrick) didn't provide the sort of physically-dominant presence that Shaq does. The notion that we'll ever see a generation of guys like Shaq -- and the notion that Shaq should be the physical measuring stick by which all centers are judged -- is silly. Hakeem excelled as a finesse-type player; Patrick's offensive greatness wasn't necessarily his back-to-the-basket game; David's athleticism and speed set him apart. None of those guys was physically intimidating the way Shaq is, but all of them were considered great centers. Those guys were all exceptional centers as well, and few who ever play the game will be as good; but in terms of the archetype of a center, it's probably somewhere in the combination of that group of players.

With that, I think that there are players in today's game who function in the prototypical mode of a center, even if they aren't considered to be centers. For instance, I think the notion that Duncan should be excluded from consideration as a center, at least at this point in time, is pretty ridiculous -- it's a complete mystery to me how a guy like Tim is deemed to be a power forward (other than by his own desire to be called that) while a guy like Amare Stoudemire is called a center. Tim's low block game is among the greatest in the history of the game and his ability to dominate the game on the offensive end from the block harkens back to the impact that many of the great centers have had. Add to that the fact that Tim is an anchor defender, much like great centers are expected to be, and you have, IMO, a prototypical center far more than you have a prototypical power forward. I think Al Jefferson, for instance, is another guy who plays like a center -- a good one, at that -- but is frequently characterized as a power forward. Pau Gasol can probably fit into that group (though I see Pau called a center more and more these days; a few years ago, when he played with guys like Lorenzen Wright, he was called a power forward) as could Jermaine O'Neal, I think.

There is, to be sure, the major shift in the game that the author notes. The emphasis on speed and perimeter play has certainly changed the way that teams build rosters. Teams certainly seem to believe that they can get effective scoring from the wings and choose to emphasize finding mobile bigs who will rebound and play defense, even if that doesn't mean blocking shots.

I don't think that the author is wrong -- I do think that the center is a dying breed. ReggieMiller's theory strikes me a plausible to explain the why's of that from a real-world standpoint and the author's apparent theory strikes me as a good basis to explain that phenomenon from a basketball standpoint. Still, I'm not sure that the erosion is as pronounced as this author claims, though in a generation, we may see a proliferation of jump-shooting 7 footers who want to play the game much more like Nowitzki or Okur than like Duncan or Yao.

I'll readily admit that I could be full of crap as well.

[duncan228]

Wow.
Thanks guys.
Between the blog, Solid, and FWD, I'll be reading this for the next while.

I'm fascinated by the apparant blending of 2 once very specific positions.
The game has changed so much in the 25+ years I've been watching. But it seemed almost seamless, a flowing change. It happened at once so fast and at the same time in slow motion.

For some reason I've latched onto this Center/PF debate.
Got to be the Duncan connection.

I appreciate the input.

[Dave McNulla]

i sort of agree with reggie on that. used to be buys like wes unseld who played center but was only 6'7". he led the league in rebounding, was rookie of the year and mvp at the same time.

how tall was bill russell? 6'9". moses malone? 6'10". daryl dawkins? 6'11". willis reed? 6'9". bill walton? 6'11". dave cowens? 6'9"

people were spoiled by kareem and gilmore.

[Hemotivo]

and rik smits

[Demo Dick Marcinko]

and rik smits

I remember Smits, he played his college ball at Marist. How about Mark Eaton? Remember that man-mountain Grizzly Adams looking mutant? Sabonis? While maybe not candidates for Springfield these guys were the epitome of the prototypical center and they did set the bar in their day.

[duncan7721]

I LOVE having a true Center on a team. Duncan can do everything a center can do but he is a natural PF. Everybody is saying 'Dunan plays PF and center most of the time' that is partly true, but adding a true center can't do anything but improve the team right?