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  1. #1
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
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    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071111/.../scotus_guns_5



    Supreme Court could take guns case By MARK SHERMAN, Associated Press Writer
    Sun Nov 11, 12:03 PM ET



    WASHINGTON - Supreme Court justices have track records that make predicting their rulings on many topics more than a mere guess. Then there is the issue of the Second Amendment and guns, about which the court has said virtually nothing in nearly 70 years.

    That could change in the next few months.

    The justices are facing a decision about whether to hear an appeal from city officials in Washington, D.C., wanting to keep the capital's 31-year ban on handguns. A lower court struck down the ban as a violation of the Second Amendment rights of gun ownership.

    The prospect that the high court might define gun rights under the Cons ution is making people on both sides of the issue nervous.

    "I wouldn't be confident on either side," said Mark Tushnet, a Harvard Law School professor and author of a new book on the battle over guns in the United States.

    The court could announce as early as Tuesday whether it will hear the case.

    The main issue before the justices is whether the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to own guns or instead spells out the collective right of states to maintain militias. The former interpretation would permit fewer restrictions on gun ownership.

    The Second Amendment reads: "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

    The federal appeals court for the District of Columbia was the first federal panel to strike down a gun-control law based on individual rights. The court ruled in favor of Anthony er, an armed security guard whose application to keep a handgun at home was denied by the district.

    Most other U.S. courts have said the Second Amendment does not contain a right to have a gun for purely private purposes.

    Chicago has a similar handgun ban, but few other gun-control laws are as strict as the district's.

    Four states — Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland and New York — are urging the Supreme Court to take the case because broad application of the appeals court ruling would threaten "all federal and state laws restricting access to firearms."

    The district said its law, passed in 1976, was enacted by local elected officials who believed it was a sensible way to save lives. The law also requires residents to keep shotguns and rifles unloaded and disassembled or fitted with trigger locks.

    The city's appeal asks the court to look only at the handgun ban because local law allows possession of other firearms.

    Critics say the law has done little to curb violence, mainly because guns obtained legally from the district or through illegal means still are readily available.

    Although the city's homicide rate has declined dramatically since peaking in the early 1990s, it ranks among the nation's highest, with 169 killings in 2006.

    er said Washington remains a dangerous place to live. "People need not stand by and die," he said in court papers.

    He said the Second Amendment gives him the right to keep working guns, including handguns, in his home for his own protection.

    The last time the court examined the meaning of the Second Amendment was in a 1939 case in which two men claimed the amendment gave them the right to have sawed-off shotguns. A unanimous court ruled against them.

    Gun control advocates say the 1939 decision in U.S. v. Miller settled the issue in favor of a collective right. Gun rights proponents say the decision has been misconstrued.

    Chief Justice John Roberts has said the question has not been resolved by the Supreme Court. The 1939 decision "sidestepped" the issue of whether the Second Amendment right is individual or collective, Roberts said at his confirmation hearing in 2005.

    "That's still very much an open issue," Roberts said.

    Both the district government and er want the high court to take the case. The split among the appeals courts and the importance of the issue make it likely that the justices will do so, Tushnet said.

    I cannot fathom the court not hearing this case. I kind of agree with the notion that most who support the right to bear arms do not take into account of the entire context of the Second Amendment.

    I am ok with people owning guns to protect themselves but I wonder why people need military style weapons. Why is their armor piercing amunition being produced? Hollow point bullets? This is where the gun nuts and I part ways.

  2. #2
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    I am ok with people owning guns to protect themselves but I wonder why people need military style weapons. Why is their armor piercing amunition being produced? Hollow point bullets? This is where the gun nuts and I part ways.
    I agree with this. Nothing in the Second Amendment says that the right to own/bear arms is unlimited. By conditioning the right upon the need to maintain a well-regulated militia, the founders, quite clearly I think, made the right something less than absolute. That it isn't absolute is borne out, for instance, by the fact that there is no legitimate cons utional challenge to a law precluding felons from owning firearms. In that sense, I've never understood the argument that something like an assault weapons ban is anathema to the Second Amendment. The law doesn't preclude gun ownership, it just precludes ownership of a particular class of firearms. That strikes me as a rather meaningful distinction.

  3. #3
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    I agree with this. Nothing in the Second Amendment says that the right to own/bear arms is unlimited. By conditioning the right upon the need to maintain a well-regulated militia, the founders, quite clearly I think, made the right something less than absolute. That it isn't absolute is borne out, for instance, by the fact that there is no legitimate cons utional challenge to a law precluding felons from owning firearms. In that sense, I've never understood the argument that something like an assault weapons ban is anathema to the Second Amendment. The law doesn't preclude gun ownership, it just precludes ownership of a particular class of firearms. That strikes me as a rather meaningful distinction.
    By this reasoning, couldn't laws be made to ban all but a single type of gun, as long as one was available? Something in the 2 caliber range?

    "Shall not be infringed" - looks pretty absolute to me.

    However, I don't think the court will hear the case. The gun control laws have manifested themselves differently accross the country - bans in some places; right to carry in others. State differentiation. I think there are enough states-rights justices on board that they will keep the feds out of it; or simply overturn the Appeals court decision WITHOUT defining exactly what rights an individual has - simply say that, "DC has a right to do what it did; we can't stop them."

  4. #4
    Veteran braeden0613's Avatar
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    I agree with this. Nothing in the Second Amendment says that the right to own/bear arms is unlimited. By conditioning the right upon the need to maintain a well-regulated militia, the founders, quite clearly I think, made the right something less than absolute. That it isn't absolute is borne out, for instance, by the fact that there is no legitimate cons utional challenge to a law precluding felons from owning firearms. In that sense, I've never understood the argument that something like an assault weapons ban is anathema to the Second Amendment. The law doesn't preclude gun ownership, it just precludes ownership of a particular class of firearms. That strikes me as a rather meaningful distinction.
    How many people do you know that own assault weapons for protection? What defines an assault weapon anyway? The fact is that these so-called weapons are used by organized crime, drug cartels, etc where the laws dont matter.

  5. #5
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    "Assault Weapon" has always been a silly designation.

    It has much more to do with a look than an actual function of the weapon.

    It is simply a semi-auto rifle with vents and ominous looking grips in black.

    Functionally (lethality) equivalent or even less so, than plenty of legal guns.

  6. #6
    Keith Jackson mookie2001's Avatar
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    I agree with this. Nothing in the Second Amendment says that the right to own/bear arms is unlimited. By conditioning the right upon the need to maintain a well-regulated militia, the founders, quite clearly I think, made the right something less than absolute. That it isn't absolute is borne out, for instance, by the fact that there is no legitimate cons utional challenge to a law precluding felons from owning firearms. In that sense, I've never understood the argument that something like an assault weapons ban is anathema to the Second Amendment. The law doesn't preclude gun ownership, it just precludes ownership of a particular class of firearms. That strikes me as a rather meaningful distinction.
    hey you cant yell fire in a crowded theatre right???????!!!!!!!!!

  7. #7
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    [url]I cannot fathom the court not hearing this case. I kind of agree with the notion that most who support the right to bear arms do not take into account of the entire context of the Second Amendment.
    Let me take it one step further then.

    I kind of agree with the notion that most who oppose the right to bear arms do not take into account the entire context or genesis of the Bill of Rights, the first 10 amendments to the U. S. Cons ution.

    If most opponents to the 2nd amendment got their way, it would become the only amendment of the ten to have been adjudicated away from being an individual right. Individual rights that were insisted upon by some of the framers in order to prevent the U. S. Cons ution from failing to be ratified by the colonies.

    In fact, all ten of the amendments were -- when considered in the context in which they were drafted and adopted -- intended to be individual rights of the people to not be infringed upon by government. Indeed, it isn't until the 10th amendment the U. S. Consitution sets down the limit on federal power and opens the floor to state's rights.

    I do, however, agree there is a debate to be had about at what point the right to bear arms is outweighed by the potential harm (read violation of others' individual rights) that could be caused. Therefore, I favor some laws based not on the weapon but on the person wishing to possess them.

    Do I favor my Uncle Bob owning a bazooka? Absolutely. But, good luck to Bob in acquiring ammunition for his bazooka -- unless of course -- he engaged in a practice -- stealing ammunition or buying it on the black market -- that would bar him from owning the bazooka.

    Criminals will continue to seek weapons regardless of the law. I'm sure there are criminals trying to acquire nuclear weapons as well as other military munitions that 2nd amendment opponents believe a ban on would prevent.

    Finally, on guns themselves. If you succeed in banning guns altogether and, I recognize that's not the argument at the moment but, it comes up eventually in these threads; if you succeed in banning guns altogether, wouldn't you also need to ban the physical and mechanical laws behind guns as well? I mean, after all, a machinist, a gunsmith, and a chemist could probably reproduce most of the weapons now on the market.

    And, guess what, underground gun factories don't glow on infrared like underground pot farms.

    So, then, the criminals would corner the market on weapons. And, the bumper sticker would literally become reality. If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.

  8. #8
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    i have guns, but i don't hunt.

  9. #9
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    hey you cant yell fire in a crowded theatre right???????!!!!!!!!!
    Sure you can...especially if there's a fire. But, even if not, you can pretty much yell whatever you want in a crowded theater. What you can't do is expect to be insulated from the consequences of doing so by some perverted understanding of the first amendment.

  10. #10
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    i have guns, but i don't hunt.
    So?

  11. #11
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    I thought you might find that interesting. do you hunt animals?

  12. #12
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    I thought you might find that interesting. do you hunt animals?
    Occasionally. But, no, not a regular hunter. It's easier to get at the grocery store.

  13. #13
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Occasionally. But, no, not a regular hunter. It's easier to get at the grocery store.
    what do you occasionally hunt?

  14. #14
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    what do you occasionally hunt?
    Whatever's in season.

  15. #15
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Whatever's in season.
    do you at least track?

  16. #16
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    do you at least track?
    If I have to but, that kind of depends on where I hunt and what I'm hunting. What's you point?

  17. #17
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    If I have to but, that kind of depends on where I hunt and what I'm hunting. What's you point?
    lets say your hunting deer, and not one of those fenced reserves.

  18. #18
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    lets say your hunting deer, and not one of those fenced reserves.
    I've never hunted on a "fenced reserve," can't afford it. I hunt on family property surrounded by barbed wire.

    Where are you going with this, I'm getting a little bored with the exchange. I assume you're trying to make some point.

  19. #19
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    just fishing, i have an opinion about certain hunting techniques when coupled with ones character. you can go back and continue your lobbying for bush on mt. rushmore.

  20. #20
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    just fishing, i have an opinion about certain hunting techniques when coupled with ones character. you can go back and continue your lobbying for bush on mt. rushmore.
    Cool.

    But, for the record, my hunting technique involves getting invited to go hunting and then, while in Rome, doing as the Romans. It's not polite to join a hunting party to which you've been invited and then tell them how you want to hunt.

    If they want everyone stationary in a blind for safety reasons, I don't ask to be allowed to wander the property trying to "track" a deer; I go sit in a blind and wait for bambi's mom or dad. Etc...

    I don't own a deer rifle or a shotgun (used to but, considering how infrequently I hunt, I sold them or gave them to relatives that do hunt) so, I use borrowed weaponry. I don't clean my own kill, I drop the deer off at a meat market and I let whoever is willing to clean and butcher smaller game...except for quail and dove. I can do those.

    What does that tell you about my character?

  21. #21
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Cool.

    But, for the record, my hunting technique involves getting invited to go hunting and then, while in Rome, doing as the Romans. It's not polite to join a hunting party to which you've been invited and then tell them how you want to hunt.
    I didn't know you waited around to be invited. I thought you might be a hunter that used instinct and cunning. They do still exist, you know. Hunting party's are rarely more than just beer drinking shootingfestivals.

    If they want everyone stationary in a blind for safety reasons, I don't ask to be allowed to wander the property trying to "track" a deer; I go sit in a blind and wait for bambi's mom or dad. Etc...
    I was afraid of that.

    I don't own a deer rifle or a shotgun (used to but, considering how infrequently I hunt, I sold them or gave them to relatives that do hunt) so, I use borrowed weaponry.
    For when the mood strikes you? Or when your invited to go kill something?
    I don't clean my own kill, I drop the deer off at a meat market and I let whoever is willing to clean and butcher smaller game...except for quail and dove. I can do those.
    Is it cheaper to pay for butchering and a hunting permit and travel expense, or cheaper to go to the store, like you said earlier?

    What does that tell you about my character?
    That you'll go hunting and let others decide how to do it. It's about ethics.

  22. #22
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    I didn't know you waited around to be invited. I thought you might be a hunter that used instinct and cunning. They do still exist, you know. Hunting party's are rarely more than just beer drinking shootingfestivals.
    Well, beer (and scotch) does get drank but, I don't recall there ever being a shot fired except at game.

    I was afraid of that.
    Well, at least I didn't say Bambi.

    For when the mood strikes you? Or when your invited to go kill something?
    Sometimes the mood strikes me and there's no invitation or there's no season or there's no opportunity. So, I guess, just yes to the second question.

    Is it cheaper to pay for butchering and a hunting permit and travel expense, or cheaper to go to the store, like you said earlier?
    For me, yes. Plus, when's the last time you saw venison in your local H.E.B. meat case?

    That you'll go hunting and let others decide how to do it.
    That I'll go hunting at the invitation of someone and respect their property and place as host.

    It's about ethics.
    Yes, it is. And manners. You must be the type that is invited to someone's home for dinner only to give them advise on how the meal should have been prepared. Or worse, you get your ass in the kitchen, between the host and the oven.

  23. #23
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    If the Supreme Court upholds the lower court ruling, does that mean fully automatic machine guns and self propelled artillery will ok too? They are "arms" after all...

  24. #24
    i hunt fenced animals clambake's Avatar
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    Well, beer (and scotch) does get drank but, I don't recall there ever being a shot fired except at game.
    Sounds more like tailgating. I guess i don't understand the recreation relevence.

    Well, at least I didn't say Bambi.


    For me, yes. Plus, when's the last time you saw venison in your local H.E.B. meat case?
    Don't know what HEB is. Typical supermarket?

    That I'll go hunting at the invitation of someone and respect their property and place as host.
    You never ask what kind of hunting before you accept?

    Yes, it is. And manners. You must be the type that is invited to someone's home for dinner only to give them advise on how the meal should have been prepared. Or worse, you get your ass in the kitchen, between the host and the oven.
    Considering that I do all the cooking, I would be more than happy to wait until I hear "Dinner is served"!

  25. #25
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Sounds more like tailgating. I guess i don't understand the recreation relevence.
    Well, it's not...and, I agree, you don't understand the recreational aspect of hunting. Incidentally, if it's a day trip - out and back - there's usually no alcohol involved. I don't drink and hunt. Oh, and I don't hunt with people who drink and hunt.

    Glad to amuse.

    Don't know what HEB is. Typical supermarket?
    Yes, regional grocery store based in San Antonio.

    You never ask what kind of hunting before you accept?
    In Texas, you usually know based on the season and the person inviting what type of hunting you're in for.

    Considering that I do all the cooking, I would be more than happy to wait until I hear "Dinner is served"!
    Then, do you sit at the table and offer advice about how you would have prepared the dish differently or, do you just eat?

    No different when you're invited to someone's place to hunt. Their property, their rules.

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