Duncan vs Russell, Jordan, & Magic

[Galileo]

Duncan vs Russell, Jordan, & Magic

These are the four players in NBA history to lead their teams to four or more NBA championships.

In this short essay, I will analyze how much help these players got, to more carefully assess their accomplishments. I will count how many teammates these players had who were either all-stars, or 1st or 2nd team all-NBA. For 1999, which had no All-Star game, I will count players who made the 1st, 2nd or 3rd team all-NBA as all-stars.

My help points system is:

all-star player = 1
2nd team all-NBA = 2 (assuming they're an all-star, otherwise 1)
1st team all-NBA = 3 (assuming they're an all-star, otherwise 2)

Tim Duncan

1999

all-star teammates > none

2003

all-star teammates > none

2005

all-star teammates > Manu Ginobili

2007

all-star teammates > Tony Parker

TOTAL

2 all-star teammates
0 all-NBA teammates

2 points

0.5 points/championship

Michael Jordan

1991

all-star teammates > none

1992

all-star teammates > Scottie Pippen

all-NBA 2nd team > Pippen

1993

all-star teammates > Scottie Pippen

1996

all-star teammates > Scottie Pippen

all-NBA 1st team > Pippen

1997

all-star teammates > Scottie Pippen

all-NBA 2nd team > Pippen

1998

all-start teammates > none

TOTAL

4 all-star teammates
2 2nd team all-NBA teammate
1 1st team all-NBA teammates

8 points

1.33 points per championship

Magic Johnson

1980

all-star teammates > Kareem Abdul-Jabber

all-NBA 1st team > Kareem Abdul-Jabber

1982

all-star teammates > Kareem Abdul-Jabber

1985

all-star teammates > Kareem Abdul-Jabber

all-NBA 2nd team > Kareem Abdul-Jabber

1987

all-star teammates > James Worthy, Kareem Abdul-Jabber

1988

all-star teammates > James Worthy, Kareem Abdul-Jabber

TOTAL

7 all-star teammates
1 2nd team all-NBA teammate
1 1st team all-NBA teammate

10 points

2 points per championship

Bill Russell

1957

all-star teammates > Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman, Tom Heinsohn

all-NBA 1st team > Cousy, Sharman

1959

all-star teammates > Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman

all-NBA 1st team > Cousy, Sharman

1960

all-star teammates > Bob Cousy, Bill Sharman

all-NBA 2nd team > Sharman

all-NBA 1st team > Bob Cousy

1961

all-star teammates > Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn

all-NBA 2nd team > Heinsohn

all-NBA 1st team > Bob Cousy

1962

all-star teammates > Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones

all-NBA 2nd team > Heinsohn, Cousy

1963

all-star teammates > Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn

all-NBA 2nd team > Cousy, Heinsohn

1964

all-star teammates > Tom Heinsohn, Sam Jones

all-NBA 2nd team > Heinsohn, Havlicek

1965

all-star teammates > Sam Jones

all-NBA 2nd team > Jones

1966

all-star teammates > Sam Jones, John Havlicek

all-NBA 2nd team > Jones, Havlicek


1968

all-star teammates > Sam Jones, John Havlicek

all-NBA 2nd team > Havlicek

1969

all-star teammates > John Havlicek

all-NBA 2nd team > Havlicek

TOTAL

22 all-star teammates
13 2nd team all-NBA teammates
6 1st team all-NBA teammates

47 points

4.27 points per championship

Conclusion

Tim Duncan got less help that any other superstar in winning his NBA championships, by a significant margin.

If Duncan can lead the Spurs to another NBA le this year, with no all-star teammates, I can see no way to not argue that Duncan is equal to the greatest players of all time.

If Duncan can win two more, he's the best ever, hands down.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

So you're basing Tim's success on how Tony and Manu's all star appearances?

[GrandeDavid]

Go Tim!

[PacerFan]

Makes absolutely no sense. There were far less teams when Russell played, so the odds just based on numbers alone would say there would be more all stars on the Celtics. This was a waste of time IMO.

[Galileo]

So you're basing Tim's success on how Tony and Manu's all star appearances?

In a way, yes.

While Manu and Tony are very good players, they are not frequent all-stars, nor all-NBA performers.

In my opinion, the greatest quality of manu and Tony (and Bowen), are their abilities to play team ball with Duncan. Even David Robinson did this.

[duncan228]

I can see no way to not argue that Duncan is equal to the greatest players of all time.

I see no way to argue this now.
Duncan is one of the greatest players ever.
Whether he wins anymore will only add to it.

It doesn't matter to me where he ends up on the top ten list.
He's already there now.

[Galileo]

Makes absolutely no sense. There were far less teams when Russell played, so the odds just based on numbers alone would say there would be more all stars on the Celtics. This was a waste of time IMO.

When Russell played, there were only 8 teams, so you had a 1/8 chance to win each year.

Now it is 1/30 chance per year.

When Russell started playing, you had only two rounds to win, now you have to win four rounds.

Bottom line, Russell had more help than Timmy.

[Galileo]

I see no way to argue this now.
Duncan is one of the greatest players ever.
Whether he wins anymore will only add to it.

It doesn't matter to me where he ends up on the top ten list.
He's already there now.

Spurs fans know this, but many NBA pundits still peddle Kobe and KG as equal to Duncan, and Duncan well below Magic, Jordan, and Russell (and Bird, and sometimes Shaq).

I don't agree and am providing empirical data to support.

[dbreiden83080]

I see no way to argue this now.
Duncan is one of the greatest players ever.
Whether he wins anymore will only add to it.

It doesn't matter to me where he ends up on the top ten list.
He's already there now.

Exactly he is a top 10 player ever. To me wherever you put Shaq, Tim needs to be one spot ahead of him as he has won just as much at a younger age wth less help. Shaq never won anything until Kobe became a great player. Tim won a le in 2003 as the only great player on his team with D-Rob at the end and Tony and Manu young and inconsistant. Plus they went through Shaq and Kobe to get that le. Tim has 4 les, 3 finals MVP's, multiple league MVP's on the all D team and all NBA teams a millions times. That is the resume of a top ten player ever.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Galileo...I like the effort...I really do.



I don't really think there's any objective formula to determine Timmy's overall contribution because many of the important intangibles of any championship caliber player can't be measured in the box score.

But if you wanted to attempt to quantify Tim's contribution I'd look at the hard statistics before I'd look at which of his teammates were voted to All-Star games or All NBA teams. What's Timmy's statistical impact to the championship teams vs. the other guys mentioned? That's what I'd focus on I think.

[dbreiden83080]

Spurs fans know this, but many NBA pundits still peddle Kobe and KG as equal to Duncan, and Duncan well below Magic, Jordan, and Russell (and Bird, and sometimes Shaq).

I don't agree and am providing empirical data to support.

Kobe i do put in that top 10 as well, or very close to it. KG anyone who thinks he can touch Timmy all time is just saying so to be a Duncan hater. It is not a statement based in reality. Why don't i just say that Ewing and Barkley are on the same level as Hakeem while i am at it.

[Brutalis]

Hey Gal, how are you basing that one teammates AS appearances? Why do they matter when it's TD vs them, not their teammates?

And you said the are not all-NBA or consistent All Stars... well,.. who's fault is that? Theirs? Teams and owners? No, it's the biased fans. Manu is an AS this year whether the books and records show it. Any expert would nod to that statement.

TP not so much, but it's harder for a guy of his size to do what a guy Manu's size can do, like take it strong to the basket and finish with and1s. TP settles on floaters and bank shots. Not saying one is over the other but they are different positions and sizes so it's irrational comparing them. Just saying the supporting cast shouldn't figure into any margin of who is equal to who, historically speaking of TD.

[Brutalis]

Kobe i do put in that top 10 as well, or very close to it. KG anyone who thinks he can touch Timmy all time is just saying so to be a Duncan hater. It is not a statement based in reality. Why don't i just say that Ewing and Barkley are on the same level as Hakeem while i am at it.

Kobe is just as legendary as Tim. No rational person can say otherwise, especially if you wanna bring up les.

Timmy is my boy and all but he has always had a cast, Kobe has not at times and still made playoffs with winning records. Both are easy top 10 players of all time, no question about it.

[Galileo]

Hey Gal, how are you basing that one teammates AS appearances? Why do they matter when it's TD vs them, not their teammates?

And you said the are not all-NBA or consistent All Stars... well,.. who's fault is that? Theirs? Teams and owners? No, it's the biased fans. Manu is an AS this year whether the books and records show it. Any expert would nod to that statement.

TP not so much, but it's harder for a guy of his size to do what a guy Manu's size can do, like take it strong to the basket and finish with and1s. TP settles on floaters and bank shots. Not saying one is over the other but they are different positions and sizes so it's irrational comparing them. Just saying the supporting cast shouldn't figure into any margin of who is equal to who, historically speaking of TD.

Maybe Manu should be an all-star this year but, did you read all the numbers?

Pippen missed TWO all-star games, out of Jordan's six championships.

Did you see how many all-star and all-league teammates Russell had? He had 22 all-star teammates in 11 years. It dwarfs the Spurs.

[Brutalis]

^ It shouldn't make any difference when comparing TD to those legends. Manu and Parker have jack to do with that.

[Galileo]

Kobe is just as legendary as Tim. No rational person can say otherwise, especially if you wanna bring up les.

Timmy is my boy and all but he has always had a cast, Kobe has not at times and still made playoffs with winning records. Both are easy top 10 players of all time, no question about it.

Kobe is not a top 10 alltime NBA player.

You'd have to bump 20 of these players:

Rank Player HoF Prob
1. Bill Russell* 1.0000
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 1.0000
3. Michael Jordan 1.0000
4. Wilt Chamberlain* 1.0000
5. Magic Johnson* 1.0000
6. Larry Bird* 1.0000
7. Bob Pet * 1.0000
8. Bob Cousy* 1.0000
9. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
10. Tim Duncan 1.0000
11. Karl Malone 1.0000
12. Oscar Robertson* 1.0000
13. Moses Malone* 1.0000
14. John Havlicek* 1.0000
15. Allen Iverson 1.0000
16. Hakeem Olajuwon 1.0000
17. Charles Barkley* 1.0000
18. Julius Erving* 1.0000
19. Jerry West* 1.0000
20. David Robinson 1.0000
21. Kevin Garnett 1.0000
22. Dave Cowens* 0.9999
23. Elgin Baylor* 0.9999
24. George Mikan* 0.9999
25. Willis Reed* 0.9999
26. Sam Jones* 0.9998
27. Bob McAdoo* 0.9998
28. Tom Heinsohn* 0.9997
29. Kobe Bryant 0.9996

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...ob_career.html

[DAF86]

haha, we have our very own john hollinger rigth here!
good intentions but the only thing that this formula proves is that big market teams put more players in the all star game and that manu is the most underrated player ever.

[mystargtr34]

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Oscar

Theres yours top ten in order.

[dbreiden83080]

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Oscar

Theres yours top ten in order.

I have Duncan ahead of Bird all time.

[mystargtr34]

Timmy is my boy but some people forget just how good Larry Bird was. But, i dont have a major problem with people putting Tim there.

There has been a group of 6 untouchables ever since Mike was annointed the greatest and then there has been abit of a gap. Those 6 have been put in alot of different orders but the consensus is that they were the 6 untouchables...

Jordan
Russell
Magic
Kareem
Wilt
Bird

It might have to be the big 7 soon.

[duncan228]

I think the fourth le moves Duncan ahead of Bird.
And I'm not forgetting how great Bird was, he's the reason I'm an NBA fan.

[Galileo]

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Magic
4. Kareem
5. Wilt
6. Bird
7. Duncan
8. Hakeem
9. Shaq
10. Oscar

Theres yours top ten in order.

Here's my top ten:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Russell
5. Duncan
6. Bird
7. Cousy
8. Shaq
9. Wilt
10. Karl Malone

Duncan maves past Magic & Russell with another le.

[mystargtr34]

I agree with most of the guys there but...

Karl Malone doesnt belong in the top 10... hes a cheap shot choke artist... he simply couldnt get it done when it mattered.. he put up great numbers in the regular season but nearly every single statistical category took a noticable hit in the playoffs despite playing more minutes. The biggest was his FG%... it was in the mid 40's in the playoffs.


Hakeem should be well ahead of Cousy and Malone... and i think Wilt is way too low.

[dbreiden83080]

I think the fourth le moves Duncan ahead of Bird.
And I'm not forgetting how great Bird was, he's the reason I'm an NBA fan.

Agreed and to me Duncan's impact on both ends of the floor combined with the les puts him ahead of Bird. Bird was a fantastic offensive player, passer, good rebounder, great leader but he was never in the same league as Duncan on D. You can double Timmy all game and he can dominate the game on the other end. Bird could never do that.

[Galileo]

I apologize for the error. I forgot to mention that George Mikan lead his team to four NBA Championships as well. Please accept my apologies for any harm this may have caused you.