Is there a God?

[angel_luv]

Free. Your. Mind. Some cultures call it "nirvana", others call it a higher understanding.

Learn what our place on Earth REALLY is. Free yourself from FEAR, which is what religion uses to control you.

Your god : "Do what I say, or else!"

Let me ask you a question :

No matter what your son did, would you EVER throw him in a place to suffer for eternity?



Your God : "Do what I tell you to, OR I WILL PUNISH YOU FOR ETERNITY - THROW YOU IN HELL TO BE TORTURED AND BURNED IN FLAMES FOREVER!!
But I still love you!"

Come on. Use your brain.


The eternal realities that are Heaven and hell are already established and have been made known to men.
Now it lies with each of us to choose which destination we want to spent eternity in.

God has a wonderful everlasting home ready and waiting for all who are willing to accept Him and it.
The only remaining question is: Will you?

God loves you and has chosen you and desires that you love and choose Him as well.

[Re-Animator]

If your serious about me wasting my time trying to educate you then you must do me a favor. Go get a camcorder and make a short video of you on your knees begging GOD to prove he is real. I want you to say these words....

"Hey asshole!! your nothing but a lie! your not real, and I dare you to give me cancer, or do something to me or my family that will make me believe your real. Give me a stroke! let someone in my family die in the next 30 days. I dare you you piece of shit GOD!! Fuck you!!"

after you made the video put it on youtube or PM it to me and then I will take you serous,.

Is anyone going to accept this challenge?

[MiamiHeat]

Seriously, I don't think you guys understand.

The Christian God -doesn't exist-

There is nothing to fear. Your mind is still caught up in FEAR

Anyway, only those brave enough to challenge themselves will read the evidence in this thread and do their own research and come to the truth. Christianity is just another form of Sun Worship. It's bullshit.

[angel_luv]

Seriously, I don't think you guys understand.

The Christian God -doesn't exist-


You cannot prove that.

[MiamiHeat]

I just did. Read the thread, you are late.

[2centsworth]

It helps me to know that I am in control of my own destiny, that I have faith in my own abilities. I don't have to "pray" for something to happen. If it happens its because I made it happen. It allows me to have faith in myself and I don't have to use anything as a crutch to get by in life. When something goes wrong, I take responsibility for it.

no matter how much you think you know, you still only know a miniscule amount of total knowledge.



Something goes wrong for a religious person its because of the devil or some other nonsense, not because they screwed up.

see above response. your statement is proof.




For those that do understand that it was of their own doing when something goes wrong kudos to them, but why the double standard when something goes right? why does it have to be contributed to God and why do you thank him? Why not thank yourself and realize you alone are the one that made it happen.

limited knowledge requires faith.





What amuses me a lot also is the fact that a lot of people know Santa Claus (at least in the sense and spirit of Christmas) doesn't really exist. But yet when the same ideals that created Santa are applied to God they somehow throw all logic out the window and create a double standard.
what facts would you like to discuss?



As far as if there is a higher being, I guess no one will ever really know until the inevitable end of their lives. There may very well be a higher power but I just think any organized religion is getting it all wrong.

granted, organized religion hasn't done the greatest of jobs.



I would hope that if this God is as benevolent as people claim him to be, he will be able to see me for who I am and how I lived my life.

according to my faith, he see you and I the same, as sinners. I have lied, stolen, etc... how bout you?



My not going to his church or worshiping him shouldnt have anything to do with it. Most of my life has paralleled the teachings of the 7 sins so I see no problem either way. I think they are a great guideline to how someone should live. are you saying you have never broken the ten commandments or have never fallen short?



Honestly... from reading a lot of responses to this thread, it seems the overriding reason people cling to a religion is fear. Fear of Death. Fear of the Afterlife. Fear of not knowing. I would be lying if I said Fear wasn't a motivator for me, but I still have a lot of maturing to do.



If that's the case, I'm glad I don't follow any of it and if it helps you to cope with reality, then that's OK too, its just not for me. Keep in mind, I don't go around shouting my beliefs to people that religion is a farse. I'm just speaking my feelings on the subject since it was brought up.

i can sense that and tried to respectfully respond.

[MiamiHeat]

Here is the basic outline of all of these figures :

* is God made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."
* His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.
* He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.
* He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
* He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
* He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.
* He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
* After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.
* His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
* His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood.


Here's a list of some of them :


Osiris

Osiris’s “son” or renewed incarnation, Horus, shares the following in common with Jesus:

--Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
--His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”).
--He was of royal descent.
--At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.
--Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (“John the Baptist”), who was decapitated.
--He had 12 desciples, two of who were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “Aan” (the two “Johns”).
--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
--Horus walked on water.
--His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was thus called “Holy Child.”
--He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
--Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
--He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
--He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc.
--He was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
--He came to fulfill the Law.
--Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.”
--Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.”

Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago [1500 years before Jesus’ alleged advent] on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended bh three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.”

Dionysus/Bacchus

Dionysus or Bacchus is thought of as being Greek, but he is a remake of the Egyptian god Osiris, whose cult extended throughout a large part of the ancient world for thousands of years. Dionysus’s religion was well-developed in Thrace, northeast of Greece, and Phrygia, which became Galatia, where Attis also later reigned. Although a Dionysus is best remembered for the rowdy celebrations in his name, which was Latinized as Bacchus, he had many other functions and contributed several aspects to the Jesus character:

--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”
--He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
--Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
--He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
--He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
--He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

Attis of Phrygia

--Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana.
--He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
--His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers
--His priests were “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.”
--He was both the Divine Son and the Father.
--On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
--He descended into the underworld.
--After three days, Attis was resurrected on March 25 (as tradition held of Jesus) as the “Most High God.

Krishna of India

The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah Krishna number in the hundreds, particularly when the early Christian texts now considered apocrypha are factored in. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was “Christna,” which reveals its relation to “Christ.” Also, in Bengali, Krishna is reputedly “Christos,” which is the same as the Greek for “Christ” and which the soldiers of Alexander the Great called Krishna. It should be further noted that, as with Jesus, Buddha and Osiris, many people have believed and continue to believe in a historical Krishna. The following is a partial list of the correspondences between Jesus and Krishna:
--Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.
--His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.
--His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
--The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
--He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
--Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
--He is depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent.
--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
--Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and he “lived poor and he loved the poor.”
--He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.”
--Krishna’s “beloved disciple” was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).
--He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
--He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.
--His path was “strewn with branches.”
--In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
--Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
--He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.”
--He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
--Krishna is the “lion of the tribe of Saki.”
--He was called the “Shepherd of God” and considered the “Redeemer,” “Firstborn,” “Sin-Bearer,” “Liberator,” “Universal Word.”
--He was deemed the “Son of God” and “our Lord and Savior,” who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.
--He was the second person of the Trinity.
--His disciples purportedly bestowed upon him the title “Jezeus,” or “Jeseus,” meaning “pure essence.”
--Krishna is to return to judge the dead, riding on a white horse, and to do battle with the “Prince of Evil,” who will desolate the earth


Mithra of Persia

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/img/18600.jpg
THIS PICTURE FAMILIAR? Look like anybody you know?

--Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
--He had 12 companions or disciples.
--Mithra’s followers were promised immortality.
--He performed miracles.
--As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in atomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” [Word] “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
--His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
--“His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.”

Furthermore, the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced . . .
. . . Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier Pagan mystery religions.

Zoroaster/Zarathustra

--Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.”
--He was baptized in a river.
--In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
--He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
--He began his ministry at age 30.
--Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.”
--He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
--He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
--He had a sacred cup or grail.
--He was slain.
--His religion had a eucharist.
--He was the “Word made flesh.”
--Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.




There are MORE. This is not the complete list.

Copy/paste

The explanation behind WHY Dec. 25 is important and everything else :

For instance, many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "sun of God's" birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the "sun of God":

* The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
* In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
* The sun is the "Light of the World."
* The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
* The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
* The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
* The sun "walks on water."
* The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
* The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
* The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
* The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.




All of them just another form of....SUN WORSHIP. God's holy day is what? Sun-Day

[TimothyLeary]

It helps me to know that I am in control of my own destiny, that I have faith in my own abilities. I don't have to "pray" for something to happen. If it happens its because I made it happen. It allows me to have faith in myself and I don't have to use anything as a crutch to get by in life. When something goes wrong, I take responsibility for it.

Something goes wrong for a religious person its because of the devil or some other nonsense, not because they screwed up. For those that do understand that it was of their own doing when something goes wrong kudos to them, but why the double standard when something goes right? why does it have to be contributed to God and why do you thank him? Why not thank yourself and realize you alone are the one that made it happen.

What amuses me a lot also is the fact that a lot of people know Santa Claus (at least in the sense and spirit of Christmas) doesn't really exist. But yet when the same ideals that created Santa are applied to God they somehow throw all logic out the window and create a double standard.

As far as if there is a higher being, I guess no one will ever really know until the inevitable end of their lives. There may very well be a higher power but I just think any organized religion is getting it all wrong. I would hope that if this God is as benevolent as people claim him to be, he will be able to see me for who I am and how I lived my life. My not going to his church or worshiping him shouldnt have anything to do with it. Most of my life has paralleled the teachings of the 7 sins so I see no problem either way. I think they are a great guideline to how someone should live.

Honestly... from reading a lot of responses to this thread, it seems the overriding reason people cling to a religion is fear. Fear of Death. Fear of the Afterlife. Fear of not knowing.

If that's the case, I'm glad I don't follow any of it and if it helps you to cope with reality, then that's OK too, its just not for me. Keep in mind, I don't go around shouting my beliefs to people that religion is a farse. I'm just speaking my feelings on the subject since it was brought up.

I don't have problems with those who choose not to believe in Jesus Christ or God. More power to you. But I don't worship out of fear but I have seen quite a few non-believers find God when they are in fear. I have nothing to fear.

[2centsworth]

I just did. Read the thread, you are late.


:lmao:lmao

[angel_luv]

It helps me to know that I am in control of my own destiny, that I have faith in my own abilities. I don't have to "pray" for something to happen. If it happens its because I made it happen. It allows me to have faith in myself and I don't have to use anything as a crutch to get by in life. When something goes wrong, I take responsibility for it.

Something goes wrong for a religious person its because of the devil or some other nonsense, not because they screwed up. For those that do understand that it was of their own doing when something goes wrong kudos to them, but why the double standard when something goes right? why does it have to be contributed to God and why do you thank him? Why not thank yourself and realize you alone are the one that made it happen.

What amuses me a lot also is the fact that a lot of people know Santa Claus (at least in the sense and spirit of Christmas) doesn't really exist. But yet when the same ideals that created Santa are applied to God they somehow throw all logic out the window and create a double standard.

As far as if there is a higher being, I guess no one will ever really know until the inevitable end of their lives. There may very well be a higher power but I just think any organized religion is getting it all wrong. I would hope that if this God is as benevolent as people claim him to be, he will be able to see me for who I am and how I lived my life. My not going to his church or worshiping him shouldnt have anything to do with it. Most of my life has paralleled the teachings of the 7 sins so I see no problem either way. I think they are a great guideline to how someone should live.

Honestly... from reading a lot of responses to this thread, it seems the overriding reason people cling to a religion is fear. Fear of Death. Fear of the Afterlife. Fear of not knowing.

If that's the case, I'm glad I don't follow any of it and if it helps you to cope with reality, then that's OK too, its just not for me. Keep in mind, I don't go around shouting my beliefs to people that religion is a farse. I'm just speaking my feelings on the subject since it was brought up.

Thank you for your response.

About the inevitable end of your life, a question... you don't allow strangers to come live in your home, so why should God?

[2centsworth]

Here is the basic outline of all of these figures :

* is God made flesh, the savior and "Son of God."
* His father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin.
* He is born in a cave or humble cowshed on December 25 before three shepherds.
* He offers his followers the chance to be born again through the rites of baptism.
* He miraculously turns water into wine at a marriage ceremony.
* He rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while people wave palm leaves to honor him.
* He dies at Eastertime as a sacrifice for the sins of the world.
* After his death he descends to hell, then on the third day he rises from the dead and ascends to heaven in glory.
* His followers await his return as the judge during the Last Days.
* His death and resurrection are celebrated by a ritual meal of bread and wine, which symbolize his body and blood.


Here's a list of some of them :


Osiris

Osiris’s “son” or renewed incarnation, Horus, shares the following in common with Jesus:

--Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Merion December 25 in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
--His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”).
--He was of royal descent.
--At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized having disappeared for 18 years.
--Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (“John the Baptist”), who was decapitated.
--He had 12 desciples, two of who were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “Aan” (the two “Johns”).
--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.
--Horus walked on water.
--His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was thus called “Holy Child.”
--He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.”
--Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
--He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
--He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc.
--He was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion.
--He came to fulfill the Law.
--Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.”
--Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.”

Furthermore, inscribed about 3,500 years ago [1500 years before Jesus’ alleged advent] on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, Birth and Adoration of Horus, with Thoth announcing to the Virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the “Holy Ghost,” impregnating the virgin; and with the infant being attended bh three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. In addition, in the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis—the original “Madonna and Child.”

Dionysus/Bacchus

Dionysus or Bacchus is thought of as being Greek, but he is a remake of the Egyptian god Osiris, whose cult extended throughout a large part of the ancient world for thousands of years. Dionysus’s religion was well-developed in Thrace, northeast of Greece, and Phrygia, which became Galatia, where Attis also later reigned. Although a Dionysus is best remembered for the rowdy celebrations in his name, which was Latinized as Bacchus, he had many other functions and contributed several aspects to the Jesus character:

--Dionysus was born of a virgin on December 25 and, as the Holy Child, was placed in a manger.
--He was a traveling teacher who performed miracles.
--He “rode in a triumphal procession on an ass.”
--He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
--Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
--He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
--He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
--He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,” Savior,” “Redeemer,” “Sin Bearer,” Anointed One,” and the “Alpha and Omega.”
--He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
--His sacrificial title of “Dendrites” or “Young Man of the Tree” intimates he was hung on a tree or crucified.

Attis of Phrygia

--Attis was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana.
--He was considered the savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind.
--His body as bread was eaten by his worshippers
--His priests were “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.”
--He was both the Divine Son and the Father.
--On “Black Friday,” he was crucified on a tree, from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth.
--He descended into the underworld.
--After three days, Attis was resurrected on March 25 (as tradition held of Jesus) as the “Most High God.

Krishna of India

The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah Krishna number in the hundreds, particularly when the early Christian texts now considered apocrypha are factored in. It should be noted that a common earlier English spelling of Krishna was “Christna,” which reveals its relation to “Christ.” Also, in Bengali, Krishna is reputedly “Christos,” which is the same as the Greek for “Christ” and which the soldiers of Alexander the Great called Krishna. It should be further noted that, as with Jesus, Buddha and Osiris, many people have believed and continue to believe in a historical Krishna. The following is a partial list of the correspondences between Jesus and Krishna:
--Krishna was born of the Virgin Devaki (“Divine One”) on December 25.
--His earthly father was a carpenter, who was off in the city paying tax while Krishna was born.
--His birth was signaled by a star in the east and attended by angels and shepherds, at which time he was presented with spices.
--The heavenly hosts danced and sang at his birth.
--He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of thousands of infants.
--Krishna was anointed on the head with oil by a woman whom he healed.
--He is depicted as having his foot on the head of a serpent.
--He worked miracles and wonders, raising the dead and healing lepers, the deaf and the blind.
--Krishna used parables to teach the people about charity and love, and he “lived poor and he loved the poor.”
--He castigated the clergy, charging them with “ambition and hypocrisy . . . Tradition says he fell victim to their vengeance.”
--Krishna’s “beloved disciple” was Arjuina or Ar-jouan (Jouhn).
--He was transfigured in front of his disciples.
--He gave his disciples the ability to work miracles.
--His path was “strewn with branches.”
--In some traditions he died on a tree or was crucified between two thieves.
--Krishna was killed around the age of 30, and the sun darkened at his death.
--He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven “in the sight of all men.”
--He was depicted on a cross with nail-holes in his feet, as well as having a heart emblem on his clothing.
--Krishna is the “lion of the tribe of Saki.”
--He was called the “Shepherd of God” and considered the “Redeemer,” “Firstborn,” “Sin-Bearer,” “Liberator,” “Universal Word.”
--He was deemed the “Son of God” and “our Lord and Savior,” who came to earth to die for man’s salvation.
--He was the second person of the Trinity.
--His disciples purportedly bestowed upon him the title “Jezeus,” or “Jeseus,” meaning “pure essence.”
--Krishna is to return to judge the dead, riding on a white horse, and to do battle with the “Prince of Evil,” who will desolate the earth


Mithra of Persia

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/mom/img/18600.jpg
THIS PICTURE FAMILIAR? Look like anybody you know?

--Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds bearing gifts.
--He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
--He had 12 companions or disciples.
--Mithra’s followers were promised immortality.
--He performed miracles.
--As the “great bull of the Sun,” Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
--He was buried in atomb and after three days rose again.
--His resurrection was celebrated every year.
--He was called “the Good Shepherd” and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
--He was considered the “Way, the Truth and the Light,” and the “Logos,” [Word] “Redeemer,” “Savior” and “Messiah.”
--His sacred day was Sunday, the “Lord’s Day,” hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
--Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.
--His religion had a eucharist or “Lord’s Supper,” at which Mithra said, “He who shall nto eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.”
--“His annual sacrifice is the Passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement of pledge of moral and physical regeneration.”

Furthermore, the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced . . .
. . . Virtually all of the elements of the Catholic ritual, from miter to wafer to altar to doxology, are directly taken from earlier Pagan mystery religions.

Zoroaster/Zarathustra

--Zoroaster was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.”
--He was baptized in a river.
--In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom.
--He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil.
--He began his ministry at age 30.
--Zoroaster baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.”
--He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man.
--He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse.
--He had a sacred cup or grail.
--He was slain.
--His religion had a eucharist.
--He was the “Word made flesh.”
--Zoroaster’s followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 CE and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age.




There are MORE. This is not the complete list.

Copy/paste

The explanation behind WHY Dec. 25 is important and everything else :

For instance, many of the world's crucified godmen have their traditional birthday on December 25th. This is because the ancients recognized that (from an earthcentric perspective) the sun makes an annual descent southward until December 21st or 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops moving southerly for three days and then starts to move northward again. During this time, the ancients declared that "God's sun" had "died" for three days and was "born again" on December 25th. The ancients realized quite abundantly that they needed the sun to return every day and that they would be in big trouble if the sun continued to move southward and did not stop and reverse its direction. Thus, these many different cultures celebrated the "sun of God's" birthday on December 25th. The following are the characteristics of the "sun of God":

* The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
* In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
* The sun is the "Light of the World."
* The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
* The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
* The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
* The sun "walks on water."
* The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
* The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
* The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
* The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.






All of them just another form of....SUN WORSHIP. God's holy day is what? Sun-Day


proper protocal is that you credit the original poster. Plagarism isn't knowledge around these parts.

[johnsmith.]

Seriously, I don't think you guys understand.

The Christian God -doesn't exist-

the truth. Christianity is just another form of Sun Worship. It's bullshit.


You must really be a joy to be around during the holidays. Seems like your still upset mommy didn't get you that XBox you wanted.

[MiamiHeat]

About the inevitable end of your life, a question... you don't allow strangers to come live in your home, so why should God?

So the solution is to throw all those strangers in extermination camps for all of eternity?

Please. Stop being dishonest with yourself. You are INTENTIONALLY trying to find excuses for your belief system because you really want to believe in it, no matter how illogical it is.

[MiamiHeat]

You must really be a joy to be around during the holidays. Seems like your still upset mommy didn't get you that XBox you wanted.

:bang:bang

[MiamiHeat]

Anyway, proof has been given.

Those who are honest to themselves and brave enough to take the leap to free themselves will do so on their own.

[2centsworth]

Don't post to me anymore, Tony Montana loving "Christian" boy. Go idolize a movie that is about a criminal who commits murder for money and deals drugs.

At least your friends will think you are 'cool'

so you surrender or what?

[I Love Me Some Me]

LOL @ "proof"

[JoeChalupa]

Seriously, I don't think you guys understand.

The Christian God -doesn't exist-

There is nothing to fear. Your mind is still caught up in FEAR

Anyway, only those brave enough to challenge themselves will read the evidence in this thread and do their own research and come to the truth. Christianity is just another form of Sun Worship. It's bullshit.

I think you believe your own bullshit out of fear and one day you'll come to pray to a God that you say does not exist....maybe not today...maybe not tomorrow...but one day you will and I pray it will be later than sooner.

[baseline bum]

You must really be a joy to be around during the holidays. Seems like your still upset mommy didn't get you that XBox you wanted.

You're a douchebag, taking other people's usernames, appending a period to them, and then acting like a troll and trying to con people into thinking you're the original poster.

[angel_luv]

So the solution is to throw all those strangers in extermination camps for all of eternity?

At a concert, for example, who is allowed admission- the people who have purchased a ticket and no one else, right?

So if someone stoutheartedly goes through time stubbornly believing themselves above the already established guidelines and refuses to buy a ticket, who but themselves do they have to blame when they denied entrance into the show.

As for eternity more specifically- those who refuse to follow God's plan for entering Heaven are left worse than homeless. They are and will forever be at the eternal mercy of Satan- the one sinners chose to embrace when they reject Jesus.
If you are not God's kid, you belong to Satan and where their father lives, the children live also.

[BacktoBasics]

What of Tacitus' historical account in the Annals? Not first person, but certainly historically accurate, no?

Of course, with every answer provided there's going to be a laundry list of skeptics who dispute the authenticity of everything written and provided. Still, none have concluded the inaccuracy of the Gospels. Since the time they were written, there has been nothing discovered to undermine the accuracy of the Gospel accounts. Additionally, since Jesus' home of Galilee was destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D, it's very possible that all first hand records of his existence were destroyed as well. Remember, the epistles were written within a decade of Christ's death. Is 10 years enough time to propogate a legend the size of Jesus Christ, and generate a following of such legend? Not likely.Seems like there is a lot of questions surrounding this. I'll need to spend more time reading up on it because I'm not well versed in the full body of work.


Some people have suggested that this passage could be a later addition by Christian scribes,[4] No early Christian writers refer to Tacitus even when discussing the subject of Nero and Christian persecution. Tertullian, Lactantius, Sulpicius Severus, Eusebius and Augustine of Hippo make no reference to Tacitus when discussing Christian persecution by Nero, however the Tacitus text itself demonstrates that it may not be such a good resource for Christians to refer to since the text derides Christians and Christianity.[5]

Sulpicius Severus repeats the passage nearly verbatim without crediting Tacitus in Chronica, but it is unknown whether Severus borrowed from Tacitus, whether a Christian scribe inserted Severus into Tacitus or whether a third source was involved. It should be noted, however, that there is no direct evidence to support these assertions about Severus, a hypothetical "Christian scribe" or a hypothetical "third source".

The passage also apparently mistakenly calls Pontius Pilate a procurator instead of a prefect, an apparent mistake also made in translations of a passage by Josephus.[6] (However, Josephus wrote in Greek and never used the term.) It should be noted that after Herod Agrippa's death in AD 44, when Judea reverted to direct Roman rule, Claudius gave procurators control over Judea.[7] This was made possible when he augmented the role of procurators so that they had magisterial power.[8] Tacitus, who rose through the magisterial ranks[9] to become consul and then proconsul had a precise knowledge of significance of the terms involved and knew when Judea began to be administered by procurators. It is therefore problematical that he would use "procurator" instead of "prefect" to describe the governor of Judea prior to the changes that he tells us Claudius brought in.


The Annals do not prove that Jesus Christ existed but merely that Christians existed in the First Century A.D., which no scholar has ever disputed. Tacitus lived too far away from the events that supposedly took place in Galilee almost a hundred years before his birth to know about them first hand.


Jeffery Jay Lowder states:

"There is no good reason to believe that Tacitus conducted independent research concerning the historicity of Jesus. The context of the reference was simply to explain the origin of the term "Christians," which was in turn made in the context of documenting Nero's vices..."

It is not just 'Christ-mythicists' who deny that Tacitus provides independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus; indeed, there are numerous Christian scholars who do the same! For example, France writes, Annals XV.44 "cannot carry alone the weight of the role of 'independent testimony' with which it has often been invested." E.P. Sanders notes, "Roman sources that mention [Jesus] are all dependent on Christian reports." And William Lane Craig states that Tacitus' statement is "no doubt dependent on Christian tradition."

As far as I can see the definitive yearly portions of the work that would have proved the existence in historical record are gone. Missing, burned up yada yada. Maybe removed by the Christians who were uspet at the lack of mention. I can't say.

I'm not saying its not an amazing body of work. Seems pretty awesome but their is a lot to be desired as far as Christians go.

[MiamiHeat]

This thread has shown proof of :

1) The origin of the dates and celebrations behind Christianity are copied from other Sun worship religions

2) Jesus' life story falls directly in line with amazing similarity to many other Sun gods

3) That the Bible stories taken literally actually have deeper meaning, coupled with evidence, that have nothing to do with supernatural events

4) That the physical appearance of Jesus amazingly resembles that of other Sun gods

5) That all of the numbers and dates in the Jesus story have a specific astrological event and meaning, EXACTLY like all the other Sun god religions, meaning that they have nothing to do with a 'real' Jesus


All of that is proof that Christianity is not reality.

[baseline bum]

At a concert, for example, who is allowed admission- the people who have purchased a ticket and no one else, right?

So if someone stoutheartedly goes through time stubbornly believing themselves above the already established guidelines and refuses to buy a ticket, who but themselves do they have to blame when they denied entrance into the show.

As for eternity more specifically- those who refuse to follow God's plan for entering Heaven are left worse than homeless. They are and will forever be at the eternal mercy of Satan- the one sinners chose to embrace when they reject Jesus.
If you are not God's kid, you belong to Satan and where their father lives, the children live also.

See, this is why I hate religion. You all make god into the biggest most jealous prick that can be conceived of. Christian god holds grudges and is deeply flawed moreso than any reasonable human.

[MiamiHeat]

I think you believe your own bullshit out of fear and one day you'll come to pray to a God that you say does not exist....maybe not today...maybe not tomorrow...but one day you will and I pray it will be later than sooner.

It's not "my" beliefs

These are WELL-KNOWN realities that have been known for A LONG TIME.

[I Love Me Some Me]

I'm not saying its not an amazing body of work. Seems pretty awesome but their is a lot to be desired as far as Christians go.

There is a lot to be desired as far as atheists go as well.

[I Love Me Some Me]

This thread has shown proof of :

1) The origin of the dates and celebrations behind Christianity are copied from other Sun worship religions

2) Jesus' life story falls directly in line with amazing similarity to many other Sun gods

3) That the Bible stories taken literally actually have deeper meaning, coupled with evidence, that have nothing to do with supernatural events

4) That the physical appearance of Jesus amazingly resembles that of other Sun gods

5) That all of the numbers and dates in the Jesus story have a specific astrological event and meaning, EXACTLY like all the other Sun god religions, meaning that they have nothing to do with a 'real' Jesus


All of that is proof that Christianity is not reality.

:rollin

You listed 5 things, but #1 and #5 are the same, and #2 and #4 are the same.

In any case, none of them conclude that Jesus did not exist, nor do they disprove the existence of a higher power.

[angel_luv]

See, this is why I hate religion. You all make god into the biggest most jealous prick that can be conceived of. Christian god holds grudges and is deeply flawed moreso than any reasonable human.

There are numerous times in life when you will receive favor based on who you know- a job reference, a free meal at the restaurant where you buddy is the manager etc.

How can you embrace/ celebrate nepotism in earth life but condemn it in an Eternal setting?

[2centsworth]

See, this is why I hate religion. You all make god into the biggest most jealous prick that can be conceived of. Christian god holds grudges and is deeply flawed moreso than any reasonable human.

you hate religion so you don't believe in God or you don't believe in God so religion is stupid?

[atxrocker]

god thread!

[atxrocker]

big foot forum

[JoeChalupa]

Anyway, proof has been given.

Those who are honest to themselves and brave enough to take the leap to free themselves will do so on their own.

No proof has been given and if you are brave enough and willing to take a leap of FAITH you'd understand. Come on now. You can do it. You've proven nothing.

[jack sommerset]

My kid believes in Santa because thats what we told her. Think about it.

[JoeChalupa]

It's not "my" beliefs

These are WELL-KNOWN realities that have been known for A LONG TIME.

I believe you are wrong and for those who religion..more power to you all.



Oh, and God bless.

[BacktoBasics]

You cannot prove that.
We have and in a multitude of ways. You and others refuse to acknowledge the facts. I doubt you even read any of it. You just went right to faith and that was the end of it.

[baseline bum]

you hate religion so you don't believe in God or you don't believe in God so religion is stupid?

I hate religion because it uses fear to herd and exploit people for money and power.

[phyzik]

Thank you for your response.

About the inevitable end of your life, a question... you don't allow strangers to come live in your home, so why should God?

Actually, I like to look at it more like: If thousands of people came to my house almost every day, and especially on Sundays, I'd start to get quite a bit annoyed with them. Its like that one guy you invite over that one time and he comes over every day afterwards to hang out. :downspin:

As far as strangers coming into my home.... I had Katrina victims stay at my house for a bit. I didn't know squat about them. I guess that would make me a better person than God by your standards but I doubt your view of God is any more correct than my view.

[2centsworth]

I hate religion because it uses fear to herd and exploit people for money and power.

I would say you're stereotyping. Nevertheless, do you believe in a God/Higher Power?

[JoeChalupa]

My kid believes in Santa because thats what we told her. Think about it.

That goes for the majority of what you learn from day one. Think about it. And the Santa Claus issue is a total crock and not even on the same level. :rolleyes

[baseline bum]

There are numerous times in life when you will receive favor based on who you know- a job reference, a free meal at the restaurant where you buddy is the manager etc.

How can you embrace/ celebrate nepotism in earth life but condemn it in an Eternal setting?

But if you don't know the manager at the restaurant, are you beat, raped, and left for dead by him?

[baseline bum]

I would say you're stereotyping. Nevertheless, do you believe in a God/Higher Power?

No, I don't. As for stereotyping, the idea of being judged by an angry god is the core belief in Christianity.

[angel_luv]

Actually, I like to look at it more like: If thousands of people came to my house almost every day, and especially on Sundays, I'd start to get quite a bit annoyed with them. Its like that one guy you invite over that one time and he comes over every day afterwards to hang out. :downspin:

As far as strangers coming into my home.... I had Katrina victims stay at my house for a bit. I didn't know squat about them. I guess that would make me a better person than God by your standards but I doubt your view of God is any more correct than my view.

:lol at that first part.

Seriously though,
If you had invited Katrina victims to stay with you and they had rejected your offer of hospitality- then their being left out in the cold would have been their fault, not yours.


God has invited the world into Eternal life but you ( and every individual) must to choose to take Jesus up on the offer of paid admission into Heaven, otherwise God cannot bless you.

[angel_luv]

But if you don't know the manager at the restaurant, are you beat, raped, and left for dead by him?

God is an ever present help in trouble and is the giver of all good gifts.

He has never harmed anyone.

[2centsworth]

....As for stereotyping, the idea of being judged by an angry god is the core belief in Christianity.
correct, but you made a blanket statement and said that idea is used to extort money. My experience is that, as a whole, Christians are the most charitable people on earth.

[baseline bum]

He has never harmed anyone.

So then the flood was a big lie?

[2centsworth]

God is an ever present help in trouble and is the giver of all good gifts.

He has never harmed anyone.

read the old testament Angel. God commanded 1000s killed.

[phyzik]

So then the flood was a big lie?

:lmao

[2centsworth]

:lmao


would still like you to respond to http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2991260&postcount=256

[Crookshanks]

I have read through this entire thread and find it both amusing and sad. Those of you like B2B and Miami Heat are so bitter and caught up in proving God doesn't exist. Well - you haven't and you never will!

Since you're so into "knowledge", I suggest you read the works of C.S. Lewis or read "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. Both of these men where vocal unbelievers who set out to prove that God didn't exist and that christianity was a lie. Guess what? They instead became staunch believers! C.S. Lewis was no dummy, and Josh McDowell spent YEARS researching and reading everything he could get his hands on.

Now - from a believer's viewpoint: we believe God created the world and that nothing existed before the creation. The story of creation is found in Genesis - and with the creation of the world and man - history begins.

God knew Adam and Eve would fall; and thus, his plan for redemption was already formed. The first references to a saviour are found in the book of Genesis. Since we believe there was no history before Genesis, then it also stands to reason that all those other "gods" you referenced did not come before the mention of Jesus. All those were false gods and false religions that took the truth of God and twisted it to fit their own humanistic ideas. Thus, Jesus is the one and only, and all those others are poor imitations!

As for historical proof of Jesus - I give you these quotes:

"Some writers may toy with the fancy of a 'Christ-myth,' but they do not do so on the ground of historical evidence. The historicity of Christ is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Ceasar. It is not historians who propagate the 'Christ-myth', theories." F.F. Bruce, Rylands Professor of biblical criticism and exegesis at the University of Manchester.

Otto Benz concludes the "no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus."

Also - there are historical biblical documents dating HUNDREDS of years BEFORE the birth of Jesus that prophecy is birth, death, and resurrection. There are over 300 hundred separate prophecies about Jesus - and it would be a statistical impossibility that all those prophecies were fulfilled in one man!

My final thought on this - my belief is based on faith and on experiencing the presence and power of God in my life. I've been a born-again christian for longer than many of you have been on this earth - and I've experienced first-hand the protection of God and his provision for me and my family. I'm not perfect my any means, and I sin regularly because I'm human. But the difference is that I feel the burden and guilt of my sin and go before God to confess my sins and shortcomings and pray for forgiveness and added strength to better withstand the temptations of this world. Nothing any of you say can or will change my beliefs - in fact, I sincerely feel great sorrow for those who choose to not believe.

Here are some scriptures to back up what I believe:

For we walk by faith, not by sight. II Corinthians 5:7

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. II Corinthians 5:10

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

And these are two especially for all you unbelievers:

The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. Psalm 53:1

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

God exists.

Unfortunately humans have a way of mucking up the waters and confusing the issues...on both sides of the argument as to His existence. But God most certainly exists.

[baseline bum]

Are you seriously advocating Genesis as being literally true?

[baseline bum.]

You're a douchebag, taking other people's usernames, appending a period to them, and then acting like a troll and trying to con people into thinking you're the original poster.


I feel your pain! :tu

[baseline bum]

I feel your pain! :tu

:lol

[jack sommerset]

That goes for the majority of what you learn from day one. Think about it. And the Santa Claus issue is a total crock and not even on the same level. :rolleyes

Are you kidding me. Please be real. The only reason anyone believes there is a God is because someone told them there was one. When whatever God comes for a visit please take a few photos,record some sounds because 6 BILLION people would love to know who or what to believe in. Faith is one thing, stupidity is something completly different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

Above is a link to hundreds of religions. All there followers believe they are right. Lots of Santa Claus storys.

[mouse]

Are you kidding me. Please be real. The only reason anyone believes there is a God is because someone told them there was one.

So we must find who that first person was that started the rumor and ask how he knew?


Faith is one thing, stupidity is something completly different.


I think it's clear to everyone reading which one of two you have the most of.

[2centsworth]

who would have guessed Jack is a wikipedia head.

[mouse]

The sad part is all those who say GOD is not real and later on decide they may have been wrong? they will have a hard time editing there original posts, I'm almost certain the vato upstairs has screen captures.

[BacktoBasics]

I have read through this entire thread and find it both amusing and sad. Those of you like B2B and Miami Heat are so bitter and caught up in proving God doesn't exist. Well - you haven't and you never will!

I don't see how you get bitter out of it. You guys love to fall back on against our argument as some kind of angry response only its the other way around. You guys are so caught up in your belief that you refuse to recognize stone cold facts to the contrary.

I never set out to prove that god didn't exist but don't worry I know you didn't read the entire thread because you'd fucking know what my motivation was.

You're right I'll never prove that "god" doesn't exist. Thats not my motivation I just proved that the modern belief structure of Jesus and organized religion is false.

I said many times and if you paid attention you'd know that I believe that there might be a higher power. I never questioned that. Never.

For the rest of you who were critical of this post


This thread has shown proof of :

1) The origin of the dates and celebrations behind Christianity are copied from other Sun worship religions

2) Jesus' life story falls directly in line with amazing similarity to many other Sun gods

3) That the Bible stories taken literally actually have deeper meaning, coupled with evidence, that have nothing to do with supernatural events

4) That the physical appearance of Jesus amazingly resembles that of other Sun gods

5) That all of the numbers and dates in the Jesus story have a specific astrological event and meaning, EXACTLY like all the other Sun god religions, meaning that they have nothing to do with a 'real' Jesus



------------------------------------------------------------

I just want to look at number 5.


5) That all of the numbers and dates in the Jesus story have a specific astrological event and meaning, EXACTLY like all the other Sun god religions, meaning that they have nothing to do with a 'real' Jesus

We have cited proof of this. In physical form and original depiction. Not hearsay. We have shown with zero doubt of credibility that there are many gods prior to Jesus that had the same meaningful dates. Dates that have been proven to hold major astrological value.

Even if you don't want to change your belief because of it I want to know:

How can this not raise questions for you?

How is every important date and moment in Jesus' life been repeated in an adaptation of a previous diety not of interest to you?

How can you nullify us with actual physical documented proof of our claims with no physical documented tangible proof of your own?

[mouse]

I don't see how you get bitter



you'd fucking know what my motivation was.


I am not the brightest bulb on the tree but I think when you curse it may show some bitterness, I could be wrong.

[phyzik]

no matter how much you think you know, you still only know a miniscule amount of total knowledge.

OK. What do you want me to say? I never claimed to know everything if thats what your getting at.



see above response. your statement is proof.

See above response, I guess.





limited knowledge requires faith.

I kind of read that wrong to begin with I guess. I thought it was saying that in order to have limited knowledge you must have faith in something. :lol

I'll go with the belief that you intended it to mean in order to gain more knowledge one must have faith. Faith in oneself is still faith. For example, I have faith that if I dont know something, I can look it up. I dont have to have God to help me google it. :toast



what facts would you like to discuss?

I dont understand.... All I said was, for the most part, people know Santa doesnt exist. Thats the only fact I brought up. Its a man who flies a red sleigh pulled by magical reindeer, one of which has a glowing nose. sounds preposterous! But when it gets to Jesus or God, a man who walks on water and turns it into wine who comes back from the dead 3 days after being buried.... The tune changes.




granted, organized religion hasn't done the greatest of jobs.

I would say thousands of years worth of wars is a pretty good indicator they are not doing something right for a supposed peaceful belief system .




according to my faith, he see you and I the same, as sinners. I have lied, stolen, etc... how bout you?

Thats exactly what I was getting at. All Im saying is no amount of posturing and praying to going to make those go away, if there is a devine being who is "all-knowing" than he should know how I feel about those mistakes without me having to tell him.


are you saying you have never broken the ten commandments or have never fallen short?

Exactly the opposite. Of course I have. See my previous response.


I would be lying if I said Fear wasn't a motivator for me, but I still have a lot of maturing to do.

Thats what alot of the "bad, evil atheist" here are really trying to get at. Religion is a means of control through fear. To take a line from Joe Chalupa nothing is going to change my belief in that.




i can sense that and tried to respectfully respond.

thank you but I have to admit some of it sounded a bit condescending. I suppose its to be expected when going against the grain though. :toast

[BacktoBasics]

Not once in this thread have I seen a reference to:

1) Physical proof
2) Original documentation
3) First person accounts

The only thing credible here is Tacitus of which each key important year in his writings are mystically missing.

We have provided references in the form of physically mathematical based calendars. Prior evidence of previous dieties well before Jesus including original documentation to support it and a number of references by the very people within your belief structure (the church) who question the authenticity of copies of copies of hearsay.

If this were a professional debate on anything else it wouldn't even be close. You've only offered hearsay thats in question by the very ones who support it.

I want more.

[jack sommerset]

The sad part is all those who say GOD is not real and later on decide they may have been wrong? they will have a hard time editing there original posts, I'm almost certain the vato upstairs has screen captures.

Fear is pretty much what drives people to "God". Sort of like if you are naughty you won't get a gift this year. He knows when you have been bad, he knows when you have been good, you better watch out for goodness sakes because Santa Claus is coming to town!:lol

But thanks for the warning.

[BacktoBasics]

I am not the brightest bulb on the tree but I think when you curse it may show some bitterness, I could be wrong.Oh foul language = bitter

:rolleyes

[MiamiHeat]

In any case, none of them conclude that Jesus did not exist, nor do they disprove the existence of a higher power.

The REASON you know of jesus is BECAUSE of those things.

[BacktoBasics]

I and MH have done well to stick to provable facts. A documented base for our argument. None of what I offered was based in opinion which is where most of these threads go to. Everything I've offered is rooted in tangible reality that you, I and anyone else can attain in person. Nothing via hearsay.

So I'm going to ask again to maintain the integrity of the debate. Because this is turning into a pointless finger pointing insult oriented argument.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I just want to look at number 5.


5) That all of the numbers and dates in the Jesus story have a specific astrological event and meaning, EXACTLY like all the other Sun god religions, meaning that they have nothing to do with a 'real' Jesus

We have cited proof of this. In physical form and original depiction. Not hearsay. We have shown with zero doubt of credibility that there are many gods prior to Jesus that had the same meaningful dates. Dates that have been proven to hold major astrological value.

Even if you don't want to change your belief because of it I want to know:

How can this not raise questions for you?

How is every important date and moment in Jesus' life been repeated in an adaptation of a previous diety not of interest to you?

How can you nullify us with actual physical documented proof of our claims with no physical documented tangible proof of your own?

[johnsmith]

How about believers just believe and non-believers just don't believe?



Everyone can stop arguing and all this wasted energy can be used on way better things..............like the "rate her" thread.

[jack sommerset]

who would have guessed Jack is a wikipedia head.

Noone including myself. Here are a few more links for those who has gotten false information from that site.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/var_rel.htm

http://www.keepandshare.com/htm/lists/free_list_of_religions.php

http://open-encyclopedia.com/List_of_religions

or just google list of religions. There are TONS of Gods out there. For those who do believe ought to really research all of them to make sure you are worshiping the right one.

[mouse]

Oh foul language = bitter

:rolleyes

Well if I had to chose from two customers and one said "sorry sir but I rather not buy your laptop".

And the other customer said "Your fucking laptop sucks"?

I would go with the second one as being bitter. maybe I don't know what bitter really means. Maybe cursing is a sign of intelligence? In that case,You and your fucked up GOD hating fags can kiss my Holier than thou hairy ass! :tu

[Crookshanks]

Prior evidence of previous dieties well before Jesus including original documentation to support it and a number of references by the very people within your belief structure (the church) who question the authenticity of copies of copies of hearsay.

I already addressed this in my original post. These other dieties may have been mentioned before the PHYSICAL presence of Jesus on this earth; but they did not come before the MENTION of Jesus. The bible says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." In this verse, Word refers to Jesus. So all those other religions fashioned their "gods" after the only true Savior - Jesus Christ. ALL other religions came after what we now call Christianity.

[baseline bum]

wow, so you really were arguing Genesis being literally true...

[BacktoBasics]

Well if I had to chose from two customers and one said "sorry sir but I rather not buy your laptop".

And the other customer said "Your fucking laptop sucks"?

I would go with the second one as being bitter. maybe I don't know what bitter really means. Maybe cursing is a sign of intelligence? In that case,You and your fucked up GOD hating fags can kiss my Holier than thou hairy ass! :tu
Guys like that yahoo above who mouth off against us in the form of accusing us of being resentful are simply the guys caught up with the people who stand on both sides hurling insults as a way to prove a point. They never listen to the argument because they're too busy cherry picking the yellers who offer no supporting facts.

I offered some sound proof for the basis of Jesus and modern day religion. Even though its tangible proof thats obtainable by all of us he chooses to ignore it and call me bitter.

I'm not simply standing here screaming that its all made up. I'm showing you how and why with documented proof of how the diety was shaped and became what it is.

You guys have countered with hearsay and no physical tangible proof of anything.

[mouse]

What I don't get if B2B and his Satan worshiping pal Miami Heat really feel there is no GOD and no purpose to life then why are they still here?

After all why not off yourselves already? Why go many years of having to work, pay bills,get sick,pay taxes,buy clothes,take showers,go to the dentist,etc...

Wouldn't you just end it all already, why would you put yourself though all this suffering?

[mouse]

Guys like that yahoo above who mouth off against us in the form of accusing us of being resentful are simply the guys caught up with the people who stand on both sides hurling insults as a way to prove a point. They never listen to the argument because they're too busy cherry picking the yellers who offer no supporting facts.

I offered some sound proof for the basis of Jesus and modern day religion. Even though its tangible proof thats obtainable by all of us he chooses to ignore it and call me bitter.

I'm not simply standing here screaming that its all made up. I'm showing you how and why with documented proof of how the diety was shaped and became what it is.

You guys have countered with hearsay and no physical tangible proof of anything.

You want proof? Then answer the following question.

Have you ever told anyone you love them?

[MiamiHeat]

I already addressed this in my original post. These other dieties may have been mentioned before the PHYSICAL presence of Jesus on this earth; but they did not come before the MENTION of Jesus. The bible says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." In this verse, Word refers to Jesus. So all those other religions fashioned their "gods" after the only true Savior - Jesus Christ. ALL other religions came after what we now call Christianity.

............

ok.

You are talking about Genesis, right? Judaism.

You do realize Orisis/Horus pre-dates Judaism, right? By about 1500 years?

[baseline bum]

What I don't get if B2B and his Satan worshiping pal Miami Heat really feel there is no GOD and no purpose to life then why are they still here?

After all why not off yourselves already? Why go many years of having to work, pay bills,get sick,pay taxes,buy clothes,take showers,go to the dentist,etc...

Wouldn't you just end it all already, why would you put yourself though all this suffering?

Why would he do that? You're the one whose beliefs make you think you'd have something to gain by swallowing a shotgun.

[BacktoBasics]

I already addressed this in my original post. These other dieties may have been mentioned before the PHYSICAL presence of Jesus on this earth; but they did not come before the MENTION of Jesus. The bible says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." In this verse, Word refers to Jesus. So all those other religions fashioned their "gods" after the only true Savior - Jesus Christ. ALL other religions came after what we now call Christianity.


Great. Prove that with some original documentation or physical artifacts of proof.

Because I've shown you in physical and documented form that the belief in those other gods were alive and present before Jesus.

The bible is not a historical record. You need legitimate sources.

[I Love Me Some Me]

We have cited proof of this. In physical form and original depiction. Not hearsay. We have shown with zero doubt of credibility that there are many gods prior to Jesus that had the same meaningful dates. Dates that have been proven to hold major astrological value.

Even if you don't want to change your belief because of it I want to know:

How can this not raise questions for you?

How is every important date and moment in Jesus' life been repeated in an adaptation of a previous diety not of interest to you?

How can you nullify us with actual physical documented proof of our claims with no physical documented tangible proof of your own?


I've addressed these concerns. It does not raise questions for me because long before the existence of any of the gods mentioned, messianic prophecies were spoken of on the earth, including as early as 3700 BC by Enoch. It not beyond the realm of possibility (probably likely) that societies filled in the blanks on their own by assigining an Osiris, a Mithra, a part of their society to be the one to fulfill that prophecy.

The dates, to me, are of little importance. Our entire calendar is based on the sun, so why is it of any significance that the dates we celebrate the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus are dates that have held cultural significance even before the birth of Jesus? Of course the dates will be aligned. They can be posted repeatedly, a million times, and these numbers and dates will provide nothing conclusive concerning the existence or non-existence of Jesus Christ.

Now, I know that isn't good enough physical proof for you, but it's certainly enough to cast reasonable doubt into what you and MiamiHeat are trying to establish as irrefutable evidence (which it is not, and no court of law would say that it is).

I've said this before and I'll say it again now. I know that there are unknowns in the Bible, and in the Christian faith. I struggle with them from time to time, and I search for answers to those questions. But, eliminating God from the equation just introduces a whole new set of unknowns and questions. By saying you KNOW there is no god, you are claiming that you know that everything came from nothing...that life came from non-life...that order came from chaos...that natural law came from randomness. All the while, faced with ZERO physical evidence that any of that happened. NONE. But you can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that all that happened naturally...because a supreme being does not exist. Sounds to me like a giant leap of faith.

[MiamiHeat]

What I don't get if B2B and his Satan worshiping pal Miami Heat really feel there is no GOD and no purpose to life then why are they still here?

After all why not off yourselves already? Why go many years of having to work, pay bills,get sick,pay taxes,buy clothes,take showers,go to the dentist,etc...

Wouldn't you just end it all already, why would you put yourself though all this suffering?

Wow, your lack of understanding is just ...well, I can't blame you. You are still starting...

We are just monkeys. Be happy while you are here. It's a ride. We are born, we live, we reproduce, and then we die. In the meantime, enjoy the ride.

Do you have depression problems? You don't need God to have a reason to live.

Do dogs or other animals need to believe in something to live and run around ? No, they aren't as complicated as us. They just live.

Why can't you do the same? Love everyone and enjoy your time on earth, it'll be over soon.

[mouse]

Why would he do that? You're the one whose beliefs make him think he'd have something to gain by swallowing a shotgun.


Because if I keep saying I don't think the Spurs are a real NBA team, there is no such thing as a Spur! why would I keep posting in a Spurs forum?

You can't have it both ways. If you claim there is no GOD and we have no purpose to be on earth why keep living? Could it be deep down inside your afraid of the consequences?

[BacktoBasics]

What I don't get if B2B and his Satan worshiping pal Miami Heat really feel there is no GOD and no purpose to life then why are they still here?

After all why not off yourselves already? Why go many years of having to work, pay bills,get sick,pay taxes,buy clothes,take showers,go to the dentist,etc...

Wouldn't you just end it all already, why would you put yourself though all this suffering?For the millionth time I never said there wasn't a higher power. Never once. Pay attention /bitter/dumbass/bitter/

I'm not going to off myself because I don't need god as a reason to exist. I don't require purpose. See how wonderful that is. I live because I am. I don't need a reason or purpose to do good or continue breathing. Life is a wonderful thing purposeless or not.

[MiamiHeat]

I've addressed these concerns. It does not raise questions for me because long before the existence of any of the gods mentioned, messianic prophecies were spoken of on the earth, including as early as 3700 BC by Enoch.


BULL.SHIT.

SHOW ME PROOF. This is the second time you make this claim, WITH NO PROOF. I already know the ONLY two places where Enoch is mentioned is in the freaking Bible and the apocryphal books written in the 2nd century AD.

As you say, "LINK?"

[baseline bum]

You're saying the incredible complexity of god came from chaos all at once. Most atheists think the incredible complexity of our world comes from slow processes that built it a brick at a time. Your god is a much bigger leap of faith, unless he was slowly built up from greater gods who preceded him.

[I Love Me Some Me]

BULL.SHIT.

SHOW ME PROOF. This is the second time you make this claim, WITH NO PROOF. I already know the ONLY two places where Enoch is mentioned is in the freaking Bible and the apocryphal books written in the 2nd century AD.

As you say, "LINK?"

Read the entire post....I told you it wasn't good enough for you. Now...respond to this part:

I've said this before and I'll say it again now. I know that there are unknowns in the Bible, and in the Christian faith. I struggle with them from time to time, and I search for answers to those questions. But, eliminating God from the equation just introduces a whole new set of unknowns and questions. By saying you KNOW there is no god, you are claiming that you know that everything came from nothing...that life came from non-life...that order came from chaos...that natural law came from randomness. All the while, faced with ZERO physical evidence that any of that happened. NONE. But you can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that all that happened naturally...because a supreme being does not exist. Sounds to me like a giant leap of faith.

[baseline bum]

Because if I keep saying I don't think the Spurs are a real NBA team, there is no such thing as a Spur! why would I keep posting in a Spurs forum?

You can't have it both ways. If you claim there is no GOD and we have no purpose to be on earth why keep living? Could it be deep down inside your afraid of the consequences?

Why is going out and having fun in your short time here not reason enough to keep living?

[DoubtingThomas]

B2B and Miamiheat put me to shame.

[MiamiHeat]

This is NOT about saying "God doesn't exist"

This is about -CHRISTIANITY and it's God-

[BacktoBasics]

I've addressed these concerns. It does not raise questions for me because long before the existence of any of the gods mentioned, messianic prophecies were spoken of on the earth, including as early as 3700 BC by Enoch. It not beyond the realm of possibility (probably likely) that societies filled in the blanks on their own by assigining an Osiris, a Mithra, a part of their society to be the one to fulfill that prophecy.

The dates, to me, are of little importance. Our entire calendar is based on the sun, so why is it of any significance that the dates we celebrate the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus are dates that have held cultural significance even before the birth of Jesus? Of course the dates will be aligned. They can be posted repeatedly, a million times, and these numbers and dates will provide nothing conclusive concerning the existence or non-existence of Jesus Christ.

Now, I know that isn't good enough physical proof for you, but it's certainly enough to cast reasonable doubt into what you and MiamiHeat are trying to establish as irrefutable evidence (which it is not, and no court of law would say that it is).

I've said this before and I'll say it again now. I know that there are unknowns in the Bible, and in the Christian faith. I struggle with them from time to time, and I search for answers to those questions. But, eliminating God from the equation just introduces a whole new set of unknowns and questions. By saying you KNOW there is no god, you are claiming that you know that everything came from nothing...that life came from non-life...that order came from chaos...that natural law came from randomness. All the while, faced with ZERO physical evidence that any of that happened. NONE. But you can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that all that happened naturally...because a supreme being does not exist. Sounds to me like a giant leap of faith.

Then why not come to terms with the fact that their might be a higher power but likely not in the form of organized religion that we know of today.

I think its somewhat irresponsible to recognize the significance of the dates in relation to astrological importance but find no value in how its portrayed within Jesus.

Isn't that like saying "yeah two different things seems to be the same but thats not important because my Jesus is right".

I believe there is a chance (at least 50/50) that there is a higher power. I never argued against the belief of God just the form of belief in which modern religion depicts him.

If this were anything other than Jesus the evidence would probably hold far more weight to you. The similarities and correlations are too great and too well founded to find no value in them.

I feel like you've agrued the most successfully of the bunch at least you acknowledge some of the facts as being "interesting".

[BacktoBasics]

This is NOT about saying "God doesn't exist"

This is about -CHRISTIANITY and it's God-Thank you. I have no proof supporting the claim of no god or no higher power. We have tons of supporting information of the lack of proof pertaining to Jesus and Christianity.

[dickface]

Anybody who isn't a complete idiot knows that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. The Bible even says so.

[mouse]

Wow, your lack of understanding is just ...well, I can't blame you. You are still starting...

So you have some faith in me I can maybe some day see your point and agree with you?




We are just monkeys.

Well then why do you wear clothes? Why not just go to the jungle and live off the land?


Be happy while you are here.

Happy like you and your bitter friend B2B, that kind of happy, or the Angel_luv happy? Define happy.


It's a ride. We are born, we live, we reproduce, and then we die. In the meantime, enjoy the ride.

How can we enjoy anything if we have to put up with your hateful postings? And some of us may want the ride to continue in the after life. Your life ends at Wally world.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s142/rooney428/vacation.jpg


Do you have depression problems? You don't need God to have a reason to live.

So what keeps you alive and so happy about your life? If your just here using up oxygen and food why not do us all a favor and take an early dirt nap so the rest of us can appreciate what the earth has to offer.



Do dogs or other animals need to believe in something to live and run around ? No, they aren't as complicated as us. They just live.

That is no way to talk about your ancestors. Show some respect. Don't drag them into your lame debates unless you can supply them with laptops? they need not to be called out.



Why can't you do the same? Love everyone and enjoy your time on earth, it'll be over soon.

What do you know about love you have no spirit your just blood and bones remember?

[baseline bum]

Your life ends at Wally world.

So does yours.

[BacktoBasics]

Anybody who isn't a complete idiot knows that Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. The Bible even says so.

Previously stated



It is believed that Christmas' date was chosen to take advantage of the imperial holiday of the birth of the Sun God Mithras, more specifically Sol Invictus, which coincided with the "return of the sun" after the shortest day of the year. The reason was to replace the popular pagan holiday with a Christian celebration of holy communion. For example, the Catholic Encyclopedia states: "Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date.



"It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same 25 December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and revelries the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day." (cited in "Christianity and Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries", Ramsay MacMullen. Yale:1997, p155) Early Christians were ridiculed, tortured and cast apart from operative society precisely because they would not participate in the pagan feasts and celebrations. The early Christians set themselves directly in opposition to the paganism which ruled the day. "Since Christians worshipped an invisible God, pagans often declared them to be atheists." (cited in "The Story of Christianity, volume 1, The Early Church to the Dawn of the Reformation", HarperCollins Publishers, 1984, p36)

[BacktoBasics]

Mouse: Why is it a problem for me to find happiness without a belief in God? Isn't needing this "purpose" or "meaning" you speak of support my claim that religion is nothing but a crutch for the weak who refuse to hold themselves accountable?

[mouse]

For the millionth time I never said there wasn't a higher power.

Sorry I didn't see that post reading through all the fuck you words you spew.

I will go back and try to read all your postings. (my bad)
Maybe you do think there is a higher power, one thing is for sure you don't fear or respect it.



Never once. Pay attention /bitter/dumbass/bitter/

Sorry I took you for a bitter person your far from it! :tu


I'm not going to off myself because I don't need god as a reason to exist.

Did you need your mother? after all w/o her would you even be here?
I get it you only need someone to get you where you want to be then you say fuck them. I think I am catching on.




I don't require purpose. See how wonderful that is. I live because I am. I don't need a reason or purpose to do good or continue breathing. Life is a wonderful thing purposeless or not.

Did you ever make that video I asked you for?

[MiamiHeat]

blah
According to mouse -

1) mouse thinks you need to believe in mouse's God to be alive, otherwise you should kill yourself

2) mouse thinks if you believe in evolution, you should walk around naked

3) mouse thinks it's not possible to be happy unless you believe in mouse's God

4) mouse thinks anyone who presents factual and historical evidence about religion prevents mouse from being happy

5) mouse thinks you should kill yourself and stop using up the oxygen and food if you don't believe in mouse' god

6) mouse thinks if you don't believe in mouse's god then you don't know anything about love


:bang:bang

I'm not even going to comment. That speaks for itself. That kind of crazy doesn't just grow on trees.

:downspin:

[mouse]

Mouse: Why is it a problem for me to find happiness without a belief in God?

Because according to you there should be no such thing as happiness. That is an emotion and since we came from space dust and evolved from the fish we should not have emotions. By having happiness your proving your more than just DNA you have a spirit.





Isn't needing this "purpose" or "meaning" you speak of support my claim that religion is nothing but a crutch for the weak who refuse to hold themselves accountable?

I don't care about religion I am only here to prove there is someone out their who placed us here. And I am sure i will do that very thing before you die.

[mouse]

According to mouse -

1) mouse thinks you need to believe in mouse's God to be alive, otherwise you should kill yourself

2) mouse thinks if you believe in evolution, you should walk around naked

3) mouse thinks it's not possible to be happy unless you believe in mouse's God

4) mouse thinks anyone who presents factual and historical evidence about religion prevents mouse from being happy

5) mouse thinks you should kill yourself and stop using up the oxygen and food if you don't believe in mouse' god

6) mouse thinks if you don't believe in mouse's god then you don't know anything about love


:bang:bang

I'm not even going to comment. That speaks for itself. That kind of crazy doesn't just grow on trees.

:downspin:


If this is your way of waving the white flag I will accept it.

[JoeChalupa]

The original question was "Is there a God" not about Chrisitianity. So B2B and MiamiHeat proven nothing. NADA!!!

[baseline bum]

Because according to you there should be no such thing as happiness. That is an emotion and since we came from space dust and evolved from the fish we should not have emotions. By having happiness your proving your more than just DNA you have a spirit.


How many ridiculous ideas can you come here with? Happiness requires there to be ghosts and all other kinds of paranormal mumjo jumbo?



I don't care about religion I am only here to prove there is someone out their who placed us here. And I am sure i will do that very thing before you die.

:lol
Even if he shoots himself right now like you're telling him to do? I wonder
what Jesus would think of someone egging a person on to commit suicide?

[MiamiHeat]

If this is your way of waving the white flag I will accept it.

I didn't know they had computers in the loony bin :downspin:

[MiamiHeat]

The original question was "Is there a God" not about Chrisitianity. So B2B and MiamiHeat proven nothing. NADA!!!

Oh, in that case, I agree. It's not possible to disprove a 'general' God.

But CHRISTIANITY is provable to be false.


For all we know, there is a God and his favorite team is the Miami Dolphins and the San Antonio Spurs and right now he is in another galaxy making walking talking chewbacca's on a planet far far away

[JoeChalupa]

MiamiHeat: What I say is the law and you all are wrong and my shit don't stink because I am the all knowing and powerful MiamiHeat and the true God of the Universe.

[Extra Stout]

Here's a list of some of them :


Osiris

Osiris’s “son” or renewed incarnation, Horus, shares the following in common with Jesus:

--Horus was born of the virgin (FALSE -- not a virgin) Isis-Merion (FALSE -- Merion is never appended to Isis) December 25 (FALSE -- November 15, roughly) in a cave/manger (FALSE -- a swamp)with his birth being announced by a star in the East (FALSE -- fabrication) and attended by three wise men.(FALSE -- fabrication, and note that the number of Magi in the biblical account is never defined)
--His earthly father was named “Seb” (“Joseph”). (FALSE -- the Egyptian name Seb is not related to the Hebrew name Joseph, and Seb is Osisris' father, not Horus'.)
--He was of royal descent.
--At at 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple,(FALSE -- fabrication) and at 30, he was baptized (FALSE -- fabrication) having disappeared for 18 years.
--Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by “Anup the Baptizer” (“John the Baptist”), who was decapitated.(FALSE -- fabrication. There is no "Anup the Baptizer and Horus was never baptized.)
--He had 12 desciples, two of who were his “witnesses” and were named “Anup” and “Aan” (the two “Johns”).(FALSE -- Horus had four disciples, sixteen other followers, and an indeterminate number of soldiers who fought for him. None were named "Anup" or "Aan.")
--He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus (“El-Osiris”), from the dead.(FALSE -- Horus never raised Osiris from the dead, nor is Osiris ever referred to as "El-Azarus.")
--Horus walked on water. (FALSE -- fabrication)
--His personal epithet was “Iusa,” the “ever-becoming son” of “Ptah,” the “Father.” He was thus called “Holy Child.” (FALSE -- fabrication)
--He delivered a “Sermon on the Mount” and his followers recounted the “Sayings of Iusa.” (FALSE -- fabrication)
--Horus was transfigured on the Mount. (FALSE -- fabrication)
--He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected. (FALSE -- Horus dies and is cast into pieces into the Nile. The pieces are retrieved by a crocodile at Osiris' request.)
--He was also the “Way, the Truth, the Light,” “Messiah,” “God’s Anointed Son,” “the “Son of Man,” the “Good Shepherd,” the “Lamb of God,” the “Word made flesh,” the “Word of Truth,” etc. (FALSE -- Horus had several titles, such as "Avenger of his Father" and "Great God," but none of the names associated with Jesus)
--He was “the Fisher” and was associated with the Fish (“Ichthys”), Lamb and Lion. (FALSE -- there is an Egyptian god named Oannes who was half-fish and half-man. Horus was never connected with the terms "fish," "lamb," or "lion." )
--He came to fulfill the Law. (FALSE -- what "Law" was supposed to be fulfilled in Egyptian mythology?)
--Horus was called “the KRST,” or “Anointed One.” (FALSE -- fabrication. Krst doesn't even mean "anointed one" in Egyptian. It means "burial.")
--Like Jesus, “Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years.” (FALSE -- fabrication)

These threads are repetitive and tedious. I am bored with them, but when this nonsense about "Jesus is the sun god" gets recycled, I will set the record straight.

Atheism is put out there as the "rationalist" belief of "independent thinkers," but then invariably some doofus brings up this fictitious list of alleged parallels between Jesus and various other "gods," and scores an own goal while thinking he's just the suparsmartsest. The vast majority of the "parallels" are fabricated. They do not exist in the source documents. The author made them up.

Perhaps Achayra S was not a crackpot, but rather a savvy Christian apologist who set this landmine out there for the unsuspecting self-styled atheist "freethinker" to embarass himself.

[I Love Me Some Me]

This is NOT about saying "God doesn't exist"

This is about -CHRISTIANITY and it's God-
Silly me. Here I was thinking this was a thread titled "Is there a God?"

[Crookshanks]

B2B and Miami Heat - there is nothing to argue or debate. We believe all history started with Genesis - roughly 6,000 or so years ago. So we also believe NOTHING pre-dates the mention of a Savior - Jesus Christ. All those other pagan religions came after the creation of the world - and the bible mentions many of those pagan religions - and they're all false.

We cannot debate because we come from completely different spheres of belief. None of your so-called "facts" are of any consequence to us because we have a faith that cannot be explained. You think all that information is irrefutable proof that Jesus and christianity are false. We will never believe that - no matter how much "proof" you put out there. You can call us stupid or gullible or whatever - it doesn't matter to us - our faith is stronger than that!

We look at you and say again - the fool has said in his heart there is no God. Now you can argue that you never said there was no God. But to deny WHO he is - and especially to deny who Jesus is - is to deny the existence of the one true God.

We can argue from now until the end of time and you will never change my mind or my beliefs, and I, unfortunately, will probably not change yours. So let's just agree to disagree - time will tell which of us was right!

But I sincerely believe that someday you will kneel before almighty God and you will have to answer for why you didn't believe - but then it will be too late to change your mind.

[JoeChalupa]

Oh, in that case, I agree. It's not possible to disprove a 'general' God.

But CHRISTIANITY is provable to be false.


For all we know, there is a God and his favorite team is the Miami Dolphins and the San Antonio Spurs and right now he is in another galaxy making walking talking chewbacca's on a planet far far away

Wrong again old wise one. You have NOT proven that Jesus Christ never existed, or walked on water, or rose from the dead. Not one single shred of evidence. A lot of data but not true indisputable facts. NONE!!

Now damnit STFU!!!

[baseline bum]

But I sincerely believe that someday you will kneel before almighty God and you will have to answer for why you didn't believe - but then it will be too late to change your mind.

Because you tell god to be a judgemental prick?

[atxrocker]

there should be a god/religion forum so that the club/political forum don't get spammed with this bullshit all the time. can we at least mix it up some?

[MiamiHeat]

EXTRA STOUT :

LAUGH OUT LOUD.

That is such BLATANT MISINFORMATION from christian sources. Sad. Complete lies

[mouse]

How many ridiculous ideas can you come here with? Happiness requires there to be ghosts and all other kinds of paranormal mumjo jumbo?

So according to you if tell a monkey a joke and he will laugh? I can show a dog the movie Old yeller and he will cry? You need a soul or a spirit to have feelings of love, hate,and jealousy.






:lol
Even if he shoots himself right now like you're telling him to do? I wonder
what Jesus would think of someone egging a person on to commit suicide?


I am sure if there is a GOD he will support me when it comes to Miami or B2B offing themselves he may want to have a word with them.

[MiamiHeat]

B2B and Miami Heat - there is nothing to argue or debate. We believe all history started with Genesis - roughly 6,000 or so years ago. So we also believe NOTHING pre-dates the mention of a Savior - Jesus Christ. .

:bang:bang:bang

oh boy

6,000 years?

[BacktoBasics]

Because according to you there should be no such thing as happiness. That is an emotion and since we came from space dust and evolved from the fish we should not have emotions. By having happiness your proving your more than just DNA you have a spirit.


I never said any of that. I never said we shouldn't be happy.






I don't care about religion I am only here to prove there is someone out their who placed us here. And I am sure i will do that very thing before you die.

Look I get what you're doing. Its a weak attempt to get me to melt by posting statements that never came out of my mouth.

I guess thats what you've come to. There was a point in time when I found you humorous. So as of right now all you've boiled down to is making up lies about my statements to get a pathetic laugh or two. The quality of your work is truely suffering if you've relegated yourself to these depths.

I'm done responding to you unless you can either be funny again or want a serious debate.

[MiamiHeat]

I am sure if there is a GOD he will support me when it comes to Miami or B2B offing themselves he may want to have a word with them.

You don't know the first thing about Christianity if that's what you think

I haven't practiced Christianity for over 10 years and even I know more than you about your own religion

[baseline bum]

So according to you i tell a monkey a joke and he will laugh? I can show a dog the movie Old yeller and he will cry? You need a soul or a spirit to have feelings of love, hate,and jealousy.


So no other animal is jealous? A dog needs a soul to bond with its owner? If the dog has a soul, why can't the dog go to heaven too? If the dog doesn't, then all dogs would logically have to be completely indifferent to humans, right?

[mouse]

You don't know the first thing about Christianity if that's what you think

I haven't practiced Christianity for over 10 years and even I know more than you about your own religion

Then show me the way brother! What time is church service Sunday? :toast

[mouse]

Look I get what you're doing. Its a weak attempt to get me to melt by posting statements that never came out of my mouth.

I guess thats what you've come to. There was a point in time when I found you humorous. So as of right now all you've boiled down to is making up lies about my statements to get a pathetic laugh or two. The quality of your work is truely suffering if you've relegated yourself to these depths.

I'm done responding to you unless you can either be funny again or want a serious debate.

Translation: I have no come backs to the truth.

[BacktoBasics]

Perhaps Achayra S was not a crackpot, but rather a savvy Christian apologist who set this landmine out there for the unsuspecting self-styled atheist "freethinker" to embarass himself.I for one think she's a bit of a crackpot. Most of her work is opinion at best.

Lets not act as if she's the only one with these views.

Since you reference a large portion of this info as fabrication would you care to offer some supporting information to back up your statements?

[Crookshanks]

Because you tell god to be a judgemental prick?

Oh no - why would I even think I could tell the creator of the universe anything?! :nope God said it - I didn't. It's right there in the bible - but of course, people like you don't believe the bible, so I guess you can go on your merry way.

But the bible also says "it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

[BacktoBasics]

B2B and Miami Heat - there is nothing to argue or debate. We believe all history started with Genesis - roughly 6,000 or so years ago. So we also believe NOTHING pre-dates the mention of a Savior - Jesus Christ. All those other pagan religions came after the creation of the world - and the bible mentions many of those pagan religions - and they're all false.

We cannot debate because we come from completely different spheres of belief. None of your so-called "facts" are of any consequence to us because we have a faith that cannot be explained. You think all that information is irrefutable proof that Jesus and christianity are false. We will never believe that - no matter how much "proof" you put out there. You can call us stupid or gullible or whatever - it doesn't matter to us - our faith is stronger than that!

We look at you and say again - the fool has said in his heart there is no God. Now you can argue that you never said there was no God. But to deny WHO he is - and especially to deny who Jesus is - is to deny the existence of the one true God.

We can argue from now until the end of time and you will never change my mind or my beliefs, and I, unfortunately, will probably not change yours. So let's just agree to disagree - time will tell which of us was right!

But I sincerely believe that someday you will kneel before almighty God and you will have to answer for why you didn't believe - but then it will be too late to change your mind.How do you explain dinosaurs?

[Extra Stout]

LAUGH OUT LOUD.

That is such BLATANT MISINFORMATION from christian sources. Sad.

Here's a translation of the Book of the Dead. This is what would be called a "source document." Please cite the plates where the alleged carbon-copy parallels to Jesus are found.

Link (http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ebod/index.htm)

[BacktoBasics]

Dinosaurs (Greek δεινόσαυρος, deinosauros) were the dominant vertebrate animals of terrestrial ecosystems for over 160 million years, from the late Triassic period (about 230 million years ago) until the end of the Cretaceous period (65 million years ago), when most of them became extinct in the Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event

Seriously? Thats all a lie? Dinosaurs aren't real? The fossils are what? Fake?

I'm not being sarcastic I'd like to know how you explain them.

[Crookshanks]

How do you explain dinosaurs?

What's to explain? They were created by God, they existed at one time, and now they don't. I just don't buy into the dating of the world as being billions of years old. I did a paper on this in college that explained the fallacies of carbon dating - but I don't have all the facts readily available right now.

[MiamiHeat]

who the hell is acharya S?

[mouse]

there should be a god/religion forum so that the club/political forum don't get spammed with this bullshit all the time. can we at least mix it up some?
How about a forum for when someone has a birthday?
How about a forum for when someone is sick and needs prayers?
How about a forum for talking about jobs?
How about a forum for cooking tips?
How about a forum for movies to watch?
How about a forum for when Tpark goes on a date?
How about a forum for when Manny wins money playing inline poker?

It's the club post more and bitch less.

[JoeChalupa]

Seriously? Thats all a lie? Dinosaurs aren't real? The fossils are what? Fake?

I'm not being sarcastic I'd like to know how you explain them.

Those arguments are lame at best. Weak..very weak. If you choose to believe or disbelieve in dinosaurs is your decision just as my belief in God and Jesus Christ is my decision. If you dont' believe then don't. Nobody is forcing you so why does it bother you so much?
You need a life coach to get over your insecurities and fear about religion.

[baseline bum]

What's to explain? They were created by God, they existed at one time, and now they don't. I just don't buy into the dating of the world as being billions of years old. I did a paper on this in college that explained the fallacies of carbon dating - but I don't have all the facts readily available right now.

I wrote an A+ paper in college arguing the earth was the center of the solar system for a history of science class. It was the easiest argument to ever make, since all I had to do was to invoke religion.

[MiamiHeat]

Dinosaurs are not a choice to believe in. They are real.

Listen, if you have such a problem with dinosaurs, historical research, and science in general, why are you enjoying the fruits of science?

According to mouse's logic, you should turn off your computer and throw it in the trash can since you don't believe in science.

[mouse]

Look I get what you're doing. Its a weak attempt to get me to melt by posting statements that never came out of my mouth.

Didn't you support the theory man came from evolution, Do i have to quote you?




I guess thats what you've come to. There was a point in time when I found you humorous. So as of right now all you've boiled down to is making up lies about my statements to get a pathetic laugh or two. The quality of your work is truely suffering if you've relegated yourself to these depths.

Your giving me way to much credit brah!


I'm done responding to you unless you can either be funny again or want a serious debate.

I think on page 2 or 3 when you had your first mini meltdown the serious debate was out the window.

[MiamiHeat]

Let's go back to the days when the Christian Church labeled science as 'heretic behavior' and killed and tortured people who practiced it.

Weee, no more medicine or anything we enjoy today!

I LOVE YOU GOD! THIS IS ALL FOR YOU!

xoxoxo

[BacktoBasics]

Here's a translation of the Book of the Dead. This is what would be called a "source document." Please cite the plates where the alleged carbon-copy parallels to Jesus are found.

Link (http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ebod/index.htm)

I think the source is a great depiction of the personification of Gods. Which is the basis for my argument. I'm getting ready to leave for the day but I'll certainly indulge in the citing of significant dates pertaining to many other "gods" tomorrow.


and gave birth to his body, and established unending and unvarying right and truth upon the earth." As a solar god he is called "Ptah, the Disk of heaven, who illumineth the world by the fire of his eyes,"; and in the Book of the Dead he is said to have "opened" the mouth of the deceased with the tool with which he opened the mouths of the gods.[1] He is depicted in the form of a mummy standing upon maat and in his hands he holds a sceptre on the top of which are the emblems of power, life, and stability; from the back of his neck hangs the menat (see p. 1, note 2).[2] Ptah formed at Memphis the chief member of the triad Ptah-Sekhet and Nefer-Tmu.

In many texts the god Ptah is often joined to the god Seker whose individual attributes it is not easy to describe; Seker is the Egyptian name of the incarnation of the Apis bull at Memphis. That Seker was a solar god is quite clear, but whether he "closed" the day or the night is not certain. Originally his festival was celebrated in the evening, wherefrom it appears that he represented some form of the night sun; but in later times the ceremony of drawing the image of the god Seker in the hennu boat round the sanctuary was performed in the morning at dawn, and thus, united with Ptah, he became the closer of the night and the opener of the day. He is depicted as a mummied body with the head of a hawk, and he sometimes holds in his hands emblems of power, sovereignty, and rule.[3]

Another form of Ptah was Ptah-Seker-Ausar wherein the creator of the world, the sun, and Osiris as the god of the dead, were represented. A large number of faïence figures of this triune god are found in graves, and specimens exist in all museums. He is represented as a dwarf standing upon a crocodile, and having a scarabæus upon his head; the scarab is the emblem of the new life into which the deceased is about to break, the crocodile is the emblem of the darkness of death which has been overcome. According to some the element of Ptah in the triad is the personification of the period of incubation which follows

[JoeChalupa]

Dinosaurs are not a choice to believe in. They are real.

Listen, if you have such a problem with dinosaurs, historical research, and science in general, why are you enjoying the fruits of science?

According to mouse's logic, you should turn off your computer and throw it in the trash can since you don't believe in science.

Well no shit sherlock dinosaurs are real. It is not even a comparison. To me God and Jesus are real and if you don't believe so then so be it. Why are you so worried and concerned about Christianity. If it doesn't work for you then why do you care?

[MiamiHeat]

.

According to mouse -

1) mouse thinks you need to believe in mouse's God to be alive, otherwise you should kill yourself

2) mouse thinks if you believe in evolution, you should walk around naked

3) mouse thinks it's not possible to be happy unless you believe in mouse's God

4) mouse thinks anyone who presents factual and historical evidence about religion prevents mouse from being happy

5) mouse thinks you should kill yourself and stop using up the oxygen and food if you don't believe in mouse' god

6) mouse thinks if you don't believe in mouse's god then you don't know anything about love

:downspin::downspin:

[Kori Ellis]

there should be a god/religion forum so that the club/political forum don't get spammed with this bullshit all the time. can we at least mix it up some?

The Political forum is actually supposed to be where the religion/God threads go. It's part of the reason the political forum was set up. As it says in the description, "Post about politics, news, government, religion and business."

However, The Club is just a catch-all, so it's fine here every once in a while.

[mouse]

According to mouse's logic, you should turn off your computer and throw it in the trash can since you don't believe in science.

I have no problem with Science as long as they don't lie to the kids in school. Like when they say the earth is 45 billion years old then I have a problem. They could just say they think the earth is millions of years old but they don't they even have the dates on when each species evolved. You fools can't even prove back in the 90s that OJ killed his wife and you expect me to believe the earth is over 25 million years old?

show me proof!

[BacktoBasics]

Those arguments are lame at best. Weak..very weak. If you choose to believe or disbelieve in dinosaurs is your decision just as my belief in God and Jesus Christ is my decision. If you dont' believe then don't. Nobody is forcing you so why does it bother you so much?
You need a life coach to get over your insecurities and fear about religion.Calm down. He said the world is 6000 years old. I asked him to explain how dinosaurs fossils date back millions of years. I think he was trying to tell me that dinosaurs either existed within 6000 years or the bones were put here by God. I'm not sure.

I guess or I wonder if he realizes that carbon dating isn't the only method for calculating dates.

Joe do you believe in dinosaurs?

Is this wrong to teach our youth of their existence millions of years ago?

[mouse]

Let's go back to the days when the Christian Church labeled science as 'heretic behavior' and killed and tortured people who practiced it.

Weee, no more medicine or anything we enjoy today!

I LOVE YOU GOD! THIS IS ALL FOR YOU!

xoxoxo

There went your serous debate street creds.

[MiamiHeat]

Well no shit sherlock dinosaurs are real. It is not even a comparison. To me God and Jesus are real and if you don't believe so then so be it. Why are you so worried and concerned about Christianity. If it doesn't work for you then why do you care?

Are you aware of the history, persecution, bloodshed, intolerance, censorship, and corruption that has always been hand-in-hand with religion?

Let's put it to modern times. Islamic 'holy warriors' ring a bell?

[MiamiHeat]

I

According to mouse -

1) mouse thinks you need to believe in mouse's God to be alive, otherwise you should kill yourself

2) mouse thinks if you believe in evolution, you should walk around naked

3) mouse thinks it's not possible to be happy unless you believe in mouse's God

4) mouse thinks anyone who presents factual and historical evidence about religion prevents mouse from being happy

5) mouse thinks you should kill yourself and stop using up the oxygen and food if you don't believe in mouse' god

6) mouse thinks if you don't believe in mouse's god then you don't know anything about love

:downspin::downspin:

[BacktoBasics]

Well no shit sherlock dinosaurs are real. It is not even a comparison. To me God and Jesus are real and if you don't believe so then so be it. Why are you so worried and concerned about Christianity. If it doesn't work for you then why do you care?
Well you say this but your Christian buddy thinks you're going to hell for believing the earth or the universe as well as all existence is over 6000 years old.

So when you're a Christian you can pick and choose the exact beliefs you carry? One Christian can say "oh yeah sure dummy of course dinos are real". The other can say "the bible says we are only 6000 years old".

So which one of you is right? Which one will your God damn to hell?

[JoeChalupa]

You don't know the first thing about Christianity if that's what you think

I haven't practiced Christianity for over 10 years and even I know more than you about your own religion

You think you do but you really don't.

[baseline bum]

So which one of you is right? Which one will your God damn to hell?

Probably both. He sounds like he's got a bit of a temper.

[BacktoBasics]

:lmao
Probably both. He sounds like he's got a bit of a temper.


Its ok to believe some science? I'm not sure how you can take Christianity for 100% accuracy and sit there and tell me that man walked with dinosaurs 6000 years ago or that dinosaurs don't exist because carbon dating is questionable. Even though carbon dating is one of many ways to determine age.

[JoeChalupa]

Are you aware of the history, persecution, bloodshed, intolerance, censorship, and corruption that has always been hand-in-hand with religion?

Let's put it to modern times. Islamic 'holy warriors' ring a bell?

Sure am. Never said it was perfect. But again, if you don't believe then don't. You stopped 10 years ago so get over it. Damn. :bang

[mouse]

Calm down. He said the world is 6000 years old. I asked him to explain how dinosaurs fossils date back millions of years.

Fossils they thought was millions of years old have shown up in the old west also the geologic column has been proven fake

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/471282/hovind_disproves_the_geologic_column/

[mouse]

Since we have such great minds of B2B and his lapdog MaimiHeat I have a question or two.....If the earth is at least a million years old why is the oldest tree on earth only 20 thousand years old? Also if the Mississippi river moves 400-million cubic yards of mud, sand and gravel each year then why isn't it the size of the united states by now since the earth is millions of years old?

[JoeChalupa]

Whooohooo!!!! I love this game!!!

[MiamiHeat]

Since we have such great minds of B2B and his lapdog MaimiHeat I have a question or two.....If the earth is at least a million years old why is the oldest tree on earth only 20 thousand years old? Also if the Mississippi river moves 400-million cubic yards of mud, sand and gravel each year then why isn't it the size of the united states by now since the earth is millions of years old?

According to mouse -

1) mouse said you need to believe in mouse's God to be alive, otherwise you should kill yourself

2) mouse said if you believe in evolution, you should walk around naked

3) mouse said it's not possible to be happy unless you believe in mouse's God

4) mouse said anyone who presents factual and historical evidence about religion prevents mouse from being happy

5) mouse said you should kill yourself and stop using up the oxygen and food if you don't believe in mouse' god

6) mouse said if you don't believe in mouse's god then you don't know anything about love

:downspin::downspin:

[JoeChalupa]

According to MiamiHeat:

1. Nothing matters because as God is my witness I am correct.

[MiamiHeat]

you continue to confuse me with hundreds of scholars over many centuries.

everything i posted has been known by many scholars and such over centuries

[Crookshanks]

I never said I didn't believe in dinosaurs - I simply said I didn't believe they were on the earth millions of years ago. However, my beliefs can be different than Joe's - but that doesn't mean God is going to condemn one of us to hell. Man, you really have NO idea what born-again christians believe. All that is necessary for one to avoid going to hell is to believe that Jesus is God's only son - sent here to save us from our sins. We must believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, was crucified on a cross, and rose again on the third day. We confess our sins and our need for a savior and ask Jesus to come into our heart and be the ruler of our life - that's all. Other beliefs are secondary and have no bearing on our eternal destiny.

As for not believing in science - I never said that either! I believe in science - in fact, I believe that the more advanced science becomes, the more implausible it is to believe in evolution!

[JoeChalupa]

you continue to confuse me with hundreds of scholars over many centuries.

everything i posted has been known by many scholars and such over centuries

Believe me, the last thing I would ever confuse you with is a scholar. :lmao And even scholars have not been able to prove that God does not exist.

[Extra Stout]

I for one think she's a bit of a crackpot. Most of her work is opinion at best.

Lets not act as if she's the only one with these views.

Since you reference a large portion of this info as fabrication would you care to offer some supporting information to back up your statements?
Find actual documents about the deities in question, rather than cut-and-paste from Christ-mythers.

A true "parallel" needs to be present in a source document that predates extant New Testament manuscripts. You can't for example, find a 5th-century fresco of some cult doing something that looks vaguely like a Eucharist and say, "Aha! Christianity copied this!"

The Book of the Dead details the Horus account.
The Avesta is the holy book of the Zoroastrians.
There are no source documents for Roman Mithraism. The best you will find is "Mysteries of Mithra" by Franz Cumont.
This (http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/Dionysos.html) is not a source document but gives a lot of good information about Dionysus. Information about the other various Greek gods is plentiful.
You can learn about Krishna in the Bhagvad Gita.
The Tripitaka summarizes some key Buddhist beliefs.

If you actually engage in "freethinking" rather than anti-religious regurgitation, you will find similarities in general themes among major religions. Zoroastrianism and Hinduism, for example, don't have a trinity, but they do have triads. There are various characters called "saviors" from various things like starvation or invading armies or what have you. There are miraculous births, though not necessarily of a virgin per se. Major characters perform miracles, teach, have followers, etc. There is judgment for doing wrong, and there is an end time when the deity ends the present order and makes things anew.

You will not find much in the way of exact detailed parallels between events in the gospel accounts and other ancient texts. Obviously there are people like MiamiHeat who really want them to be there, but they aren't.

[The Power Hour.]

Do you hear that sound? The sound of B2B and MiamiHeat slowly leaving the topic due to lack of evidence. :lmao

[LARRY MERCHANT]

That right hook from mouse was more than B2B could take.

[BULLSHIT]

MimamiHeat you want to trade screen names with me?

[Re-Animator]

B2B must be Goggling his ass off for a come back! :lol

[SpursReportSucks]

This is why SR will always suck!!

[2centsworth]

OK. What do you want me to say? I never claimed to know everything if thats what your getting at.

none of us do and none of us ever will. That's where faith comes into play.





I kind of read that wrong to begin with I guess. I thought it was saying that in order to have limited knowledge you must have faith in something. :lol :sleep



I'll go with the belief that you intended it to mean in order to gain more knowledge one must have faith. no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying we will never ever know everything, so faith whether it's athiestic or theistic is necessary.



Faith in oneself is still faith. For example, I have faith that if I dont know something, I can look it up. I dont have to have God to help me google it. you don't have the time for complete knowledge. None of us do.





I dont understand.... All I said was, for the most part, people know Santa doesnt exist. kind of silly comparing santa to a potential creator/ higher power.



Thats the only fact I brought up. Its a man who flies a red sleigh pulled by magical reindeer, one of which has a glowing nose. sounds preposterous! But when it gets to Jesus or God, a man who walks on water and turns it into wine who comes back from the dead 3 days after being buried.... The tune changes. the thread title was belief in God.






I would say thousands of years worth of wars is a pretty good indicator they are not doing something right for a supposed peaceful belief system . simplistic and probably uninformed. the peaceful belief system is extremely instrumental in pacifing mans violent tendencies. I would argue that belief system is responsible for just about all of the positive changes in this world. It's taken a long time to pacify man, and we're still not there, but Christianity has done a marvelous job in getting to where we are today. See the Germanic Barbarians..






Thats exactly what I was getting at. All Im saying is no amount of posturing and praying to going to make those go away, if there is a devine being who is "all-knowing" than he should know how I feel about those mistakes without me having to tell him. it's not about feeling, it's about paying the price for sins. For instance, if you break the Law do you think a judge is not going to punish you? You're saying if you feel bad then the judge will let you off the hook. Now that requires more faith than I've got.:lol




Exactly the opposite. Of course I have. See my previous response.that's the point, we all deserve punishment.




Thats what alot of the "bad, evil atheist" here are really trying to get at. Religion is a means of control through fear. To take a line from Joe Chalupa nothing is going to change my belief in that.no they are not. nevertheless, tell me how ancient humans used worshipping gods as a means of control. It seems to me they were just praying for food.






thank you but I have to admit some of it sounded a bit condescending. I suppose its to be expected when going against the grain though. :toast challenging, but not condescending:toast

[Phenomanul]

These threads are repetitive and tedious. I am bored with them, but when this nonsense about "Jesus is the sun god" gets recycled, I will set the record straight.

Atheism is put out there as the "rationalist" belief of "independent thinkers," but then invariably some doofus brings up this fictitious list of alleged parallels between Jesus and various other "gods," and scores an own goal while thinking he's just the suparsmartsest. The vast majority of the "parallels" are fabricated. They do not exist in the source documents. The author made them up.

Perhaps Achayra S was not a crackpot, but rather a savvy Christian apologist who set this landmine out there for the unsuspecting self-styled atheist "freethinker" to embarass himself.

You beat me to it... :toast kudos.

I was actually working on a response to MH's original list but my session timed-out and I lost it when I clicked "Submit Reply". I was too occupied to rewrite the response... Good thing you did.

So even though MH's irrefutable PROOF was based on inaccurate, purposely misleading data, his logic was still rather weak. The fact that he claimed to have argued away the historicity of Jesus's claims, when no one else in history has been able to do so was surprising. He who 'exalts' himself will be humbled (I know... I've tasted this bitter cup before, through my own search for the 'Truth').

Besides, if he was intellectually honest with himself as he claims to be, then he would have eventually discovered that more than half of his list was a complete fabrication. But like you said, it serves to embarrass the staunchness of his claims. His lazy ultimatum backfired.

BTW Baseline Bum, whether or not Genesis is interpretted literally there are several historical statements found in Genesis. Geneaologies for example can only be interpretted as 'historical fact' as they would make zero sense if interpretted otherwise (poetic, allegorical, symbolic, etc...). Other profetic statements in the 'Old Testament' are completely irrelevant unless they are seen in the context of Jesus's life. Which is why Judaism's rejection of Jesus as their Messiah is perplexing (but that's for another discussion).

To the OP; Yes, I believe GOD exists. I also believe we are all presented with the opportunity to believe in His existence and in His offer of grace and forgiveness. The free will He bestowed on humanity however, will ultimately determine the setting of our eternal destiny; in one we will rejoice in His presence and in the other we will be separated from Him. This is a personal choice.

[Alex Jones]

This topic has more conspiracy theories than 9/11 and area 51 combined!

[wrench]

Since we have such great minds of B2B and his lapdog MaimiHeat I have a question or two.....If the earth is at least a million years old why is the oldest tree on earth only 20 thousand years old? Also if the Mississippi river moves 400-million cubic yards of mud, sand and gravel each year then why isn't it the size of the united states by now since the earth is millions of years old?


You fucked up some egos! :tu

[smeagol]

i can prove where your beliefs and celebrations come from. i can also explain the real meanings behind your bible. that should be enough to prove that you are believing a lie

No you can't . . . and you haven't.

Try again, please.

[smeagol]

The funny thing is that mouse is an agnostic himself . . . :lol

[I am Tom]

The funny thing is that mouse is an agnostic himself . . . :lol

Can you prove that?

[smeagol]

There is no God. There is the idea and concept of God which keeps believers in line, but there is definately no all-powerful devine being watching over us and creating "miracles".


And you can prove this how? By stating how many "Jesuses" there were before Christ? MH and B2B have tried that one . . . and failed.

Any fresh ideas?



The thing I find the most funny is God in sports. When someone wins they thank God. Well.... what about the other person/people that lost?


And you have disproven God's existance with this analogy, how?

Have you ever won a competition and you went ahead and thanked your coach? What happens if you lose that same competition? You will probably skip the coach thanking ceremony, wouldn't you?

Similar story with God.



Did God forsake them or just favor you more?


Only in your twisted analogy.



I thought God loved us all equally?


Actually, he does.



Could it possibly be that through your own strength and talent that you won the day on your own? Is it really that hard to believe that?


Bring your A game on the next analogy. This one sucked donkey's balls.

[smeagol]

Can you prove that?

As much as B2B and MH can prove that God does not exist :lmao

[smeagol]

Lets make things clear. Jesus was obviously real and Im fine with that. The story of him being the son of an invisible all powerful being is not.


You sound as convinced about this story not being true as Christians are about it being true.

I wonder how can this matter be resolved? Mmmmm . . . it can't. It is been going on for 2,000 years.

There's that pesky thing called faith. Some people have it, some don't.



Mary just got knocked up through infidelity or her and her husband where lying through their teeth out of the desperation of being poor and pregnant.


I'm sure you have numerous sources to back this story up. If you can, link some from the second or third Century.

Thanks in advance.

[JIM LAMPLEY]

That right hook from mouse was more than B2B could take.

I couldn't agree more. That has him back peddling faster than he can come up with a credit score. That's going to leave a mark.

[jack sommerset]

But I sincerely believe that someday you will kneel before almighty God and you will have to answer for why you didn't believe - but then it will be too late to change your mind.

Sincerely statements like that make me sick to my stomach. FEAR! Honestly go fuck yourself. I mean that. No internet bullshit. If there is a God and the people don't believe because there is no proof or they worshiped the wrong one it will be to late, meaning "Son u is going to HELL!" How fucking stupid you are.

I love the fucktards that say if you don't believe in Jesus Christ you are going to HELL!. A baby could be raised in the fucking jungle by apes,never see another person until the day they die and guess what, that same apeman is going to HELL.

Burning in fire for eternity! Holy fucking shit. That is so sick. And for some douchebag to actually say that makes them CRAZY!

[Satan]

Sincerely statements like that make me sick to my stomach. FEAR! Honestly go fuck yourself. I mean that. No internet bullshit. If there is a God and the people don't believe because there is no proof or they worshiped the wrong one it will be to late, meaning "Son u is going to HELL!" How fucking stupid you are.

I love the fucktards that say if you don't believe in Jesus Christ you are going to HELL!. A baby could be raised in the fucking jungle by apes,never see another person until the day they die and guess what, that same apeman is going to HELL.

Burning in fire for eternity! Holy fucking shit. That is so sick. And for some douchebag to actually say that makes them CRAZY!

We'll talk later and believe me it will be a very ,very heated discussion.

[smeagol]

Possibly. Even the existence of Jesus is in serious doubt. There is very little if any legitimate historical record of him. In a time where historical record keeping was normal practice. The man is simply not recognized.

The information we have about Jesus comes mainly from Christian writings, which were written as early as 30 years after his death (the Gospels). We have copies of those writings which were done less than a Century after that the originals were written. You have no such thing for any other historical figure you can think of (Aristotle, Homer, Ceaser, etc).

What it is true is that you have very few writings about Jesus outside Christianity, but there are a couple. Do the research.

[ALVAREZ6]

do people truly believe jesus magically appeared somewhere rather than born naturally?

[Crookshanks]

Jack Sommerset - your post was so incredibly vile - I'm not going to quote it. However, what you said is so filled with anger and animosity towards God and christians. I really resent the names you called me and the things you said.

It is your perogative to not believe in God or eternal salvation/damnation; but you don't need to be so hateful towards those who do. And WE didn't make those judgments or say what one must do to be saved. Those beliefs come from the bible and our faith in the bible and God.

It is HIM you have to answer to - so please refrain from making such vile statements to people you don't even know!

[JoeChalupa]

do people truly believe jesus magically appeared somewhere rather than born naturally?

He was born naturally from the womb of Mary. Did you hear he was delivered by a stork?

[Summers]

Since we have such great minds of B2B and his lapdog MaimiHeat I have a question or two.....If the earth is at least a million years old why is the oldest tree on earth only 20 thousand years old? Also if the Mississippi river moves 400-million cubic yards of mud, sand and gravel each year then why isn't it the size of the united states by now since the earth is millions of years old?

I haven't read this thread since, like, page 3 and I'm sure I'll regret adding my two cents, but why doesn't it make sense that the Earth is so much older than any of its living creatures? The Earth formed about 4 billion years ago. Life first appeared about a billion years later. The first vascular plants (including trees) appeared about 400 million years ago. In the mean time the earth's geography has changed dramatically and animals and plants have been wiped out by ice ages, earth quakes, meteors, etc.

Also, Kent Hovind (in the video you linked) is a bit of a crackpot.

[smeagol]

The pagan calendar is based on astrological bodies that were personified as being human like. Its roots are mathmatical and originated with time and its cycles. Its all about relation. The faith part is a by-product of a tool used to track the stars. The very tool that was used to create and control religion into the ages including today. The very basis was found in actual truth not questionable faith. The pagan calendar doesn't depict gods as in magical and possibly non-existent mythical creatures the calendar depicts a precise mathmatical calculation of astrology that is undeniable. Those undeniable times and dates are the basis of every significant date in Jesus's life. Its not opinion if its provable fact.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

So Chrstianity is a bout dates and calendars?

Great job! You have disproven Christianity . . . :lmao

[Brutalis]

I used to believe a long time ago.

At 24, I've seen more than most my age. I've learned through experience that in the end all you got is your momma or daddy, or grandma, whichever it is for you. There is no god. Don't waste your days believing in things that never believed in you.

[smeagol]

I'm done. I'm not going to debate a mathematically provable calendar. This is fucking stupid. You guys who wish to debate the accuracy of math are quite possibly the dumbest people alive. I get it ok 2 + 2 = 4 is just a theory.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

Amazing!

[smeagol]

You simply don't get it. None of you do and none of you ever will because you faith won't allow it.


We get that you are trying to prove the unprovable (that God does not exist).

You think that bringing up ancient calendars disproves Christianity and Jesus . . . and that is fucking hilarious

[JoeChalupa]

I used to believe a long time ago.

At 24, I've seen more than most my age. I've learned through experience that in the end all you got is your momma or daddy, or grandma, whichever it is for you. There is no god. Don't waste your days believing in things that never believed in you.

I've never considered my belief as a waste of time and at my age I've seen enough, been through enough that it has only strengthened my belief. 24? You are just a kid. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[jack sommerset]

Jack Sommerset - your post was so incredibly vile - I'm not going to quote it. However, what you said is so filled with anger and animosity towards God and christians. I really resent the names you called me and the things you said.

It is your perogative to not believe in God or eternal salvation/damnation; but you don't need to be so hateful towards those who do. And WE didn't make those judgments or say what one must do to be saved. Those beliefs come from the bible and our faith in the bible and God.

It is HIM you have to answer to - so please refrain from making such vile statements to people you don't even know!

I do stand by the words I say. Its your business to believe in the bible but to tell others they are going to burn in hell if they don't, to me that is vile. No animosity here, pure disgust for people who judge others for not believing in there God. Average religion in USA..."Its ur business but I am telling you if you don't believe, you are going to burn forever, oh by the way we are having a party for Tom, can u be there?" HAHAHAHA

Forget those who actually live good lives,who don't steal,cheat,hurt others, infact give others a helping hand when needed, have morals,love and donot hate, guess what God will tell you "You have lived a near perfect life my son, you donot have a selfish bone in ur body and you always cared for others more than you did for yourself but YOU ARE GOING TO HELL because you believed in ALLAH and please don't tell me if you grew up in Texas instead of Iran you would have believed in me,you my son are going to HELL and will burn forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

[baseline bum.]

A baby could be raised in the fucking jungle by apes,never see another person until the day they die and guess what, that same apeman is going to HELL.
Burning in fire for eternity! Holy fucking shit.

The baby will have an excuse the question is will you?

[Crookshanks]

I used to believe a long time ago.

At 24, I've seen more than most my age. I've learned through experience that in the end all you got is your momma or daddy, or grandma, whichever it is for you. There is no god. Don't waste your days believing in things that never believed in you.

I'm so sorry you think that. I've been a christian for over 40 years and I've been through some really tough times and suffered a lot of heartache. But I can honestly say it was my faith that got me through and I don't know where I'd be if I didn't have it. There was a short period of my life when I was very mad at God and turned my back on him. But what's so wonderful is HE never turned his back on me - He was right there waiting when I returned like the prodigal son (except I'm a daughter :lol).

I sincerely hope you change your mind and give God another chance. You won't be sorry!

[jack sommerset]

The baby will have an excuse the question is will you?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA The Baby in hell has an excuse....NICE!:lol

[ALVAREZ6]

I'm so sorry you think that. I've been a christian for over 40 years and I've been through some really tough times and suffered a lot of heartache. But I can honestly say it was my faith that got me through and I don't know where I'd be if I didn't have it. There was a short period of my life when I was very mad at God and turned my back on him. But what's so wonderful is HE never turned his back on me - He was right there waiting when I returned like the prodigal son (except I'm a daughter :lol).

I sincerely hope you change your mind and give God another chance. You won't be sorry!
:lol:lol

[Crookshanks]

I do stand by the words I say. Its your business to believe in the bible but to tell others they are going to burn in hell if they don't, to me that is vile. No animosity here, pure disgust for people who judge others for not believing in there God. Average religion in USA..."Its ur business but I am telling you if you don't believe, you are going to burn forever, oh by the way we are having a party for Tom, can u be there?" HAHAHAHA

Forget those who actually live good lives,who don't steal,cheat,hurt others, infact give others a helping hand when needed, have morals,love and donot hate, guess what God will tell you "You have lived a near perfect life my son, you donot have a selfish bone in ur body and you always cared for others more than you did for yourself but YOU ARE GOING TO HELL because you believed in ALLAH and please don't tell me if you grew up in Texas instead of Iran you would have believed in me,you my son are going to HELL and will burn forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Again Jack - you are missing the point. WE never said you were going to burn in hell - God said it! God made his plans perfectly clear in the bible, but he gave each of us free will to make the choice to believe or not.

So your beef is with God - not with Christians! Don't hate the messenger! But please understand - it was not God's plan that any should perish - hell was created for Satan and his angels. But all who choose to deny God will spend eternity separated from Him.

[td4mvp21]

Again Jack - you are missing the point. WE never said you were going to burn in hell - God said it! God made his plans perfectly clear in the bible, but he gave each of us free will to make the choice to believe or not.

So your beef is with God - not with Christians! Don't hate the messenger! But please understand - it was not God's plan that any should perish - hell was created for Satan and his angels. But all who choose to deny God will spend eternity separated from Him.

You are right but I don't think we as Christians have the authority to point that out to anyone, at least that's my opinion.

[2centsworth]

I do stand by the words I say. Its your business to believe in the bible but to tell others they are going to burn in hell if they don't, to me that is vile. No animosity here, pure disgust for people who judge others for not believing in there God. Average religion in USA..."Its ur business but I am telling you if you don't believe, you are going to burn forever, oh by the way we are having a party for Tom, can u be there?" HAHAHAHA

Forget those who actually live good lives,who don't steal,cheat,hurt others, infact give others a helping hand when needed, have morals,love and donot hate, guess what God will tell you "You have lived a near perfect life my son, you donot have a selfish bone in ur body and you always cared for others more than you did for yourself but YOU ARE GOING TO HELL because you believed in ALLAH and please don't tell me if you grew up in Texas instead of Iran you would have believed in me,you my son are going to HELL and will burn forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

what world do you live in, OZ?

[2centsworth]

You are right but I don't think we as Christians have the authority to point that out to anyone, at least that's my opinion.

jack needs to be humbled. He is a lying, thieving, selfish bastard like the rest of us.:p:

[JoeChalupa]

You are right but I don't think we as Christians have the authority to point that out to anyone, at least that's my opinion.

I concur. We are all sinners.

[jack sommerset]

Can you point me to the orginal Bible? Lets make sure it exist and what it really says.Thanks

This is the best one.

God: Hmmm, says here you molested 12 kids,stole money countless times, raped women, geez and men, thats a double whammy, murdered 27 people,tortured animals, had sex with animals...... I have to stop. You have not lived a very good life. I only have one question? Do you believe in my Son Jesus Christ?

Sick fuck: Well, yes I do!

God: Come on in!

[JoeChalupa]

Can you point me to the orginal Bible? Lets make sure it exist and what it really says.Thanks

This is the best one.

God: Hmmm, says here you molested 12 kids,stole money countless times, raped women, geez and men, thats a double whammy, murdered 27 people,tortured animals, had sex with animals...... I have to stop. You have not lived a very good life. I only have one question? Do you believe in my Son Jesus Christ?

Sick fuck: Well, yes I do!

God: Come on in!

:lmao at the MiamiHeat post template

[td4mvp21]

Can you point me to the orginal Bible? Lets make sure it exist and what it really says.Thanks

This is the best one.

God: Hmmm, says here you molested 12 kids,stole money countless times, raped women, geez and men, thats a double whammy, murdered 27 people,tortured animals, had sex with animals...... I have to stop. You have not lived a very good life. I only have one question? Do you believe in my Son Jesus Christ?

Sick fuck: Well, yes I do!

God: Come on in!

Twisted truth.

[baseline bum]

As for not believing in science - I never said that either! I believe in science - in fact, I believe that the more advanced science becomes, the more implausible it is to believe in evolution!

Too bad for you science has developed in the exact opposite direction as it has advanced.

[td4mvp21]

I concur. We are all sinners.

:tu Yup.

[jack sommerset]

:lmao at the MiamiHeat post template

Smart guy

[2centsworth]

Can you point me to the orginal Bible? Lets make sure it exist and what it really says.Thanks

This is the best one.

God: Hmmm, says here you molested 12 kids,stole money countless times, raped women, geez and men, thats a double whammy, murdered 27 people,tortured animals, had sex with animals...... I have to stop. You have not lived a very good life. I only have one question? Do you believe in my Son Jesus Christ?

Sick fuck: Well, yes I do!

God: Come on in!

Biblical belief is more than believing in the existence of christ. Otherwise Satan would go to heaven.

[jack sommerset]

Biblical belief is more than believing in the existence of christ. Otherwise Satan would go to heaven.

Nice point, I don't believe in a particular God but very nice point!

[baseline bum]

Jack Sommerset - your post was so incredibly vile - I'm not going to quote it. However, what you said is so filled with anger and animosity towards God and christians.

http://skeptico.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/pot_kettle.jpg

[JoeChalupa]

And are all you non-believers totally offended by the words "In God We Trust" on American Currency? Are you offended by President Bush's reference to his belief in God? If you sneeze and I say "God Bless You" will you look at me in disbelief and mock me? When you at an event of some kind and they ask for the people to have a moment of silence does that just make you want to puke? When you attend a funeral and there are prayers do you giggle at the stupidity of it all?
I'm just wondering.

[baseline bum]

The baby will have an excuse the question is will you?

You're fucking hilarious, mouse.

[jack sommerset]

And are all you non-believers totally offended by the words "In God We Trust" on American Currency? Are you offended by President Bush's reference to his belief in God? If you sneeze and I say "God Bless You" will you look at me in disbelief and mock me? When you at an event of some kind and they ask for the people to have a moment of silence does that just make you want to puke? When you attend a funeral and there are prayers do you giggle at the stupidity of it all?
I'm just wondering.

No, sometimes in certain situations it can be annoying. I am offended by the ass fucks that say "you will go to hell if you do not believe" or killed because of there religous beliefs and Every hypocrite out there that throw the bible in people faces when they sin,such as a priest fucking a 6 year old.

[td4mvp21]

http://skeptico.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/pot_kettle.jpg

:lol I don't think Crookshanks has said anything of that nature in this thread but that picture could very well apply to some Christians.

[baseline bum]

:lol I don't think Crookshanks has said anything of that nature in this thread but that picture could very well apply to some Christians.


However, what you said is so filled with anger and animosity

[Crookshanks]

Biblical belief is more than believing in the existence of christ. Otherwise Satan would go to heaven.
That is a great point! The bible does say the demons believe and tremble. But Jack - salvation is more than believing in Jesus. You must CONFESS your sins and REPENT - which means turning away from sin. As humans - we still sin every day; but we have the Holy Spirit inside us that causes us to feel guilty when we sin.

So your little scenario is totally false! A person who had truly repented and asked Jesus to be his Savior would not continue a life of sin like that!

However, it is possible that a person could've lived a life of sin like that and then recognized his need of a Savior. If he repented of his sins and asked Jesus to forgive him and to become his Savior, then yes, he would go to heaven when he died. That is the wonder of God's grace! Max Lucado has written a wonderful book on this subject - it's called "In the Grip of Grace". It's a great book. I've heard that Jeffrey Dahmer became a born-again christian before he died - but I don't know that for a fact. That doesn't seem fair from a human point of view, but God views all people equally and all sin equally. In God's eyes, Jeffrey Dahmer's sins are no worse than yours or mine.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

So much going on in this thread. . .

To answer the original question, I don't know, but then again no one does.

And has it ever occurred to you (no one in particular)that the God you're following may be the wrong one? Why Christianity and not Hinduism?

I always got stumped by predestination and free will working together.

[JoeChalupa]

No, sometimes in certain situations it can be annoying. I am offended by the ass fucks that say "you will go to hell if you do not believe" or killed because of there religous beliefs and Every hypocrite out there that throw the bible in people faces when they sin,such as a priest fucking a 6 year old.

I hear ya....I hear ya. But I've never said that "you are going to burn in hell" because I don't judge people that way but I do know some who do I don't like it one bit.

[jack sommerset]

I hear ya....I hear ya. But I've never said that "you are going to burn in hell" because I don't judge people that way but I do know some who do I don't like it one bit.

Fair enough.

[JoeChalupa]

So much going on in this thread. . .

To answer the original question, I don't know, but then again no one does.

And has it ever occurred to you (no one in particular)that the God you're following may be the wrong one? Why Christianity and not Hinduism?

I always got stumped by predestination and free will working together.

I've thought about it and you know what....I'm so comfortable in my belief that I don't really care what others believe. I don't mock other religions for I know that they have the same feelings about their religion as I do mine. The majority of my friends are not Catholic but the topic of religion rarely comes up although Mouse has tried to get my goat on more than one occasion about Catholics.

[jack sommerset]

So much going on in this thread. . .

To answer the original question, I don't know, but then again no one does.

And has it ever occurred to you (no one in particular)that the God you're following may be the wrong one? Why Christianity and not Hinduism?

I always got stumped by predestination and free will working together.

Welcome to the insanity known as religion or are they cults?

[JoeChalupa]

Welcome to the insanity known as religion or are they cults?

A Cult of Personality.

Rock on!!

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

And if man has free will, why the rush to teach only one religion - whichever that may be - at such an early age? Shouldn't you be taught all of them and choose for yourself?

[baseline bum]

And if man has free will, why the rush to teach only one religion - whichever that may be - at such an early age? Shouldn't you be taught all of them and choose for yourself?

Religion might die if it wasn't taught to young kids who accept words of authority figures as absolute fact. Seriously, what adult is going to believe a virgin could have a child who was also the child's father?

[Crookshanks]

Fair enough.

That pretty much sums it up! Everyone is free to believe or not believe. I have my beliefs - beliefs I would die for; but others choose not to believe. God tells christians that we are to go into all the world and preach the gospel; and that is our job. It's up to God to judge the hearts and minds of all people.

I've said before that I wasn't going to post in here any longer because of the hatred and animosity that has been directed at me for my beliefs. However, as a christian, I can't let an opportunity go by to share my beliefs in the hope that someone will be converted. God says His word will not return to Him void - and we never know who we might reach with our testimony.

So - I have no animosity towards anyone here and I wish no one harm. Everyone is free to believe what they want - and not be harrassed because of it!

[baseline bum]

That pretty much sums it up! Everyone is free to believe or not believe. I have my beliefs - beliefs I would die for; but others choose not to believe. God tells christians that we are to go into all the world and preach the gospel; and that is our job. It's up to God to judge the hearts and minds of all people.

I've said before that I wasn't going to post in here any longer because of the hatred and animosity that has been directed at me for my beliefs. However, as a christian, I can't let an opportunity go by to share my beliefs in the hope that someone will be converted. God says His word will not return to Him void - and we never know who we might reach with our testimony.

So - I have no animosity towards anyone here and I wish no one harm. Everyone is free to believe what they want - and not be harrassed because of it!

Quit playing the victim card here. If I came on here and posted that I believed all ######s should hang because I read it in a book, I would rightly be called hate filled and full of animosity.

[JoeChalupa]

And if man has free will, why the rush to teach only one religion - whichever that may be - at such an early age? Shouldn't you be taught all of them and choose for yourself?

As a parent it is only natural to want to teach your child your values and beliefs. I remember one day when things were going very rough in my life..very rough...and my father, having come from the old macho world and did not express much emotion, at least not with his sons...I remember one day telling him that the greatest gift he's given me is sharing his belief in God and Jesus with me. But once we became adults he never, ever preached to us about attending Mass. He left it alone and believe me I'm not the perfect Catholic and he's allowed us to live our own spiritual lives and I will do the same with my children. I'm raising my children as Catholics but they've also attended Baptist, Protestant, Methodist and non-denominational services.

[CuckingFunt]

So much going on in this thread. . .

To answer the original question, I don't know, but then again no one does.

And has it ever occurred to you (no one in particular)that the God you're following may be the wrong one? Why Christianity and not Hinduism?

I think that is my biggest issue with religion.

I'm ultimately too science/logic minded to really believe the mythology of any religions, but actually have tremendous respect for those whose faith is strong enough to support those beliefs (admittedly, however, my respect drops several notches when those beliefs are treated as fact). What I've really never understood, though, is the ability to decide that magical fairytale A is inherently more true and believable than magical fairytale B -- pregnant virgins and resurrection make sense, but reincarnation is crazy talk? Doesn't add up, to me.

[Crookshanks]

Quit playing the victim card here. If I came on here and posted that I believed all ######s should hang because I read it in a book, I would rightly be called hate filled and full of animosity.
:huh Victim? Who's playing the victim card? In the past, there have been some really hateful comments directed at me because of my beliefs and I simply said I wasn't going to subject myself to that kind of abuse any longer. Not once in this thread have I called anyone names or been mean and ugly. So I don't get where you're coming from. What does your comment mean?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

I think that is my biggest issue with religion.

I'm ultimately too science/logic minded to really believe the mythology of any religions, but actually have tremendous respect for those whose faith is strong enough to support those beliefs (admittedly, however, my respect drops several notches when those beliefs are treated as fact). What I've really never understood, though, is the ability to decide that magical fairytale A is inherently more true and believable than magical fairytale B -- pregnant virgins and resurrection make sense, but reincarnation is crazy talk? Doesn't add up, to me.

Agreed.

Plus Jesus Camp was downright scary.

[mouse]

I haven't read this thread since, like, page 3 and I'm sure I'll regret adding my two cents,

You call telling us the earth is 400 Billion years old your 2 cents?


but why doesn't it make sense that the Earth is so much older than any of its living creatures?

According to what facts? Please don't pull out the out dated text books the kids have to read in order to graduate. please tell me your not relying on what you was taught in school.



The Earth formed about 4 billion years ago.

Are you sure it wasn't 4 and 1/2 or 5 billion years? hell lets go for 6 Billion to be safe! :tu I hate to bust your little Darwin bubble but the an average lifespan of a comet is approximately 2,000 years. Halley's Comet is approximately 10,000 years, so if the earth was even One Million years old there would be no more comets left.

But If you still believe that 40o billion bullshit then I have a 1985 Delorean to sell you it helps you travel through time. You might have to replace the flux capacitor.

Also each year, water and winds erode about 28 billion tons of dirt and rock from the continents and deposit it in the oceans. At that rate, it would take only 15 million years to erode all land above sea-level. Yet most of the land is supposed to have been above sea-level for hundreds of millions of years?

another point:

Over the years, Some scientists have reported various pieces of evidence in the Earth that contradict the fossil record. Seemingly manmade objects have been reported in rocks which, according to geologists, would not have been available to man. To some people, this evidence debunks the entire accepted scientific dating system. The most famous piece of such evidence is the supposed human tracks in the limestone bed of the Paluxy River in Texas. The Paluxy River is known for its large number of dinosaur footprints, but some people believe that tracks from human beings are intermingled with the dinosaur footprints, which would mean that humans and dinosaurs were on the planet at the same time.

http://www.usd.edu/esci/age/_images/creationism_and_young_earth/fossils/supposed_footprint.gif


Another heads up: dirt samples from the top of the grand canyon and the bottom of the grand canyon was sent off to a lab to determine the age of the dirt, The test reviled the dirt was no older than 6000 years old.

How can the dirt be the same age on the bottom and the top if the grand canyon took millions (according to you billions) of years to make?

also.........We know absolutely for certain, it takes millions and millions of years for fossils to petrify." It’s so obvious that no proof is necessary and of course no witnesses verify. The claim is just repeated over and over. So we hear, "Everybody knows that." Oh yea? How old do you think this boot could be? Millions and millions of years old? I suppose it could be made from T. Rex skin. Do you really think so?
The rubber-soled boot with petrified cowboy (human) leg, bones and all was found in a dry creek bed near the West Texas town of Iraan, about 1980 by Mr. Jerry Stone, an employee of Corvette oil company.

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/limestone-cowboy-boot-inside.jpg



The boot was hand made by the M. L. Leddy boot company of San Angelo, Texas which began manufacturing boots in 1936. Gayland Leddy, nephew of the founder, grew up in the boot business and now manages Boot Town in Garland, Texas. He recognized the "number 10 stitch pattern" used by his uncle’s company where he worked for many years. Mr. Leddy believes the boot was made in the early 1950’s.






Life first appeared about a billion years later. The first vascular plants (including trees) appeared about 400 million years ago. In the mean time the earth's geography has changed dramatically and animals and plants have been wiped out by ice ages, earth quakes, meteors, etc.

You may want to do some more research before you quote some out dated text book.




Also, Kent Hovind (in the video you linked) is a bit of a crackpot.

So was Picasso,Einstein, and Galileo, hell even Bill Gates and Gandhi did jail time. Does it matter if Ben Franklyn was a closet lesbian? Or Alexander Graham Bell liked to talk to lady bugs? Don't try and ruin someones personal life to avoid the facts they have proven to be correct.

It helps your cause if you keep the debate punches above the waist.

[CuckingFunt]

Ben Franklin was a closet lesbian?

[JoeChalupa]

Ben Franklin was a closet lesbian?

It was a kite...not a dyke.

[baseline bum]

:huh Victim? Who's playing the victim card? In the past, there have been some really hateful comments directed at me because of my beliefs and I simply said I wasn't going to subject myself to that kind of abuse any longer. Not once in this thread have I called anyone names or been mean and ugly. So I don't get where you're coming from. What does your comment mean?

There is nothing as hate-filled said to you as the garbage you spew, damning everyone who doesn't believe as you do. Just because you're repeating something you read doesn't make it any less bigoted when you're coming on here and arguing it based on your belief. It's so insanely arrogant to act like you have it all right and anyone who believes differently is going to get his comeuppance from your supposed insecure and angry gods.

[ididnotnothat]

It was a kite...not a dyke.

:lol These threads pop up on a regular basis.

[manufor3]

yes, there is

[mouse]

Even though I never 100% support much due to the fact that I must leave the door open for anyone who can present something that proves me wrong,I must keep an open mind.

I don't 100% agree with everything Kent Hovind says but he does bring up some good evidence and it would be good if you would listen to a few of his speeches.

In this debate he goes head to head with three others.

xMpk7WerFWw

[Crookshanks]

There is nothing as hate-filled said to you as the garbage you spew, damning everyone who doesn't believe as you do. Just because you're repeating something you read doesn't make it any less bigoted when you're coming on here and arguing it based on your belief. It's so insanely arrogant to act like you have it all right and anyone who believes differently is going to get his comeuppance from your supposed insecure and angry gods.

Hoo-boy! A little testy there baseline? Nothing I've posted in this thread could be construed as hate-filled. I've simple stated my beliefs - which I BELIEVE was the purpose of this thread - and said that everyone had the free will to chose to believe or not believe. Not once have I said so-and-so is going to hell - maybe you're confusing me with someone else.

But you notice the words you use - saying I'm spewing garbage and damning everyone who doesn't believe as I do - those are YOUR words, not mine. You believe it's garbage - okay - you're free to do so. But there are many of us here who believe otherwise - and that's okay too!

[Summers]

You call telling us the earth is 400 Billion years old your 2 cents?



According to what facts? Please don't pull out the out dated text books the kids have to read in order to graduate. please tell me your not relying on what you was taught in school.




Are you sure it wasn't 4 and 1/2 or 5 billion years? hell lets go for 6 Billion to be safe! :tu I hate to bust your little Darwin bubble but the an average lifespan of a comet is approximately 2,000 years. Halley's Comet is approximately 10,000 years, so if the earth was even One Million years old there would be no more comets left.

But If you still believe that 40o billion bullshit then I have a 1985 Delorean to sell you it helps you travel through time. You might have to replace the flux capacitor.

Also each year, water and winds erode about 28 billion tons of dirt and rock from the continents and deposit it in the oceans. At that rate, it would take only 15 million years to erode all land above sea-level. Yet most of the land is supposed to have been above sea-level for hundreds of millions of years?

another point:

Over the years, Some scientists have reported various pieces of evidence in the Earth that contradict the fossil record. Seemingly manmade objects have been reported in rocks which, according to geologists, would not have been available to man. To some people, this evidence debunks the entire accepted scientific dating system. The most famous piece of such evidence is the supposed human tracks in the limestone bed of the Paluxy River in Texas. The Paluxy River is known for its large number of dinosaur footprints, but some people believe that tracks from human beings are intermingled with the dinosaur footprints, which would mean that humans and dinosaurs were on the planet at the same time.

http://www.usd.edu/esci/age/_images/creationism_and_young_earth/fossils/supposed_footprint.gif


Another heads up: dirt samples from the top of the grand canyon and the bottom of the grand canyon was sent off to a lab to determine the age of the dirt, The test reviled the dirt was no older than 6000 years old.

How can the dirt be the same age on the bottom and the top if the grand canyon took millions (according to you billions) of years to make?

also.........We know absolutely for certain, it takes millions and millions of years for fossils to petrify." It’s so obvious that no proof is necessary and of course no witnesses verify. The claim is just repeated over and over. So we hear, "Everybody knows that." Oh yea? How old do you think this boot could be? Millions and millions of years old? I suppose it could be made from T. Rex skin. Do you really think so?
The rubber-soled boot with petrified cowboy (human) leg, bones and all was found in a dry creek bed near the West Texas town of Iraan, about 1980 by Mr. Jerry Stone, an employee of Corvette oil company.



The boot was hand made by the M. L. Leddy boot company of San Angelo, Texas which began manufacturing boots in 1936. Gayland Leddy, nephew of the founder, grew up in the boot business and now manages Boot Town in Garland, Texas. He recognized the "number 10 stitch pattern" used by his uncle’s company where he worked for many years. Mr. Leddy believes the boot was made in the early 1950’s.







You may want to do some more research before you quote some out dated text book.





So was Picasso,Einstein, and Galileo, hell even Bill Gates and Gandhi did jail time. Does it matter if Ben Franklyn was a closet lesbian? Or Alexander Graham Bell liked to talk to lady bugs? Don't try and ruin someones personal life to avoid the facts they have proven to be correct.

It helps your cause if you keep the debate punches above the waist.

The book I used as a reference for dates is not outdated. It was copyrighted and published in 2008. It's Biological Sciences, third edition by Scott Freeman.

Let me make it very clear, because I am not a judgmental person, that I didn't call Kent Hovind a crackpot because he's in jail or because he goes around the country preaching what he believes. It's because he lies to make people believe what he believes (he's lied about his education; he uses false information in his lectures; there is absolutely nothing scientific about his "scientific" presentations, etc) AND because he hands out brochures at his lectures warning the audience that anyone who disagrees with him is doing so because they hate Christians, which is certainly not the case. He has not been proven correct, as you claim. If you want to claim he has proven his case, then you must admit there is at least as much scientific evidence that he is wrong; it would be the intellectually honest thing to do. In that case, we must agree to disagree.

Regarding land erosion, the point I was trying to make was Hawaii, for example. The earth's geography has changed due to tectonic plate movement and soil erosion certainly doesn't take place uniformly across any large piece of land. Roots anchor down soil and as long as there are dead leaves and bugs to eat them, there will be more soil.

The contents of that boot are, by definition, not a fossil. That's human bone, still made of calcium and probably enough DNA to ID the body surrounded by a cast of dried mud, which, if carbon-dated, would reveal it to be a very young deposit of silt.

I realize this thread has gotten heated, but I am being civil, Mouse, and I didn't punch anyone "below the waist". I'd appreciate a civil debate in return.

[Summers]

Even though I never 100% support much due to the fact that I must leave the door open for anyone who can present something that proves me wrong,I must keep an open mind.

I don't 100% agree with everything Kent Hovind says but he does bring up some good evidence and it would be good if you would listen to a few of his speeches.

In this debate he goes head to head with three others.

xMpk7WerFWw

I will listen to this. It'll take me a while. :lol Thank you for the link.

[mouse]

The book I used as a reference for dates is not outdated. It was copyrighted and published in 2008. It's Biological Sciences, third edition by Scott Freeman.
.

So let me get this straight! Your able to quote a book written in 2007-2008 but I and others can't quote the Bible? How is that fair?

I don't care about the cowboy boot. You can Google it yourself It's not just Kent Hovind who feels it's a fossil, in fact i went to another site to get the info.

but since your in a debunking mood, let me toss a few others at you.

How long does it take to form sedimentary layers? Charles Officer is a research professor at Dartmouth. In his 1996 book, The Great Dinosaur Extinction Mystery, he says, "...a rate of one centimeter per 1000 years is typical," But just look and think about this 30 foot fossil tree. It is one of hundreds found near Cookville, TN in the Kettles coal mines which derived their name from the shape of the lower portion of these fossil trees. This tree begins in one coal seam, protrudes upward through numerous layers and finally into another layer of coal.

Think about that. What would happen to the top of the tree in the thousands of years necessary to cover it at the rate postulated by Officer. Derek Ager, one of the world’s best known statigraphers, addresses this challenge, acknowledging "...standing trees up to 10 m high in the Lancashire coalfield of north-west England. ...Obviously sedimentation had to be very rapid to bury a tree in a standing position before it rotted and fell down. ...Standing trees are known at many levels and in many parts of the world. ...we cannot escape the conclusion that sedimentation was at times very rapid indeed and that at other times there were long breaks in the sedimentation, though it looks uniform and continuous,

In spite of how it looks, long periods of time are still claimed, "shoehorned" between the layers, where there is no evidence. Now, which is really better science...imaginative explanations about why things are not as they appear to be, or a determination to follow the implications of what we actually see?

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-petrified-tree.jpg

[baseline bum]

Hoo-boy! A little testy there baseline? Nothing I've posted in this thread could be construed as hate-filled. I've simple stated my beliefs - which I BELIEVE was the purpose of this thread - and said that everyone had the free will to chose to believe or not believe. Not once have I said so-and-so is going to hell - maybe you're confusing me with someone else.

But you notice the words you use - saying I'm spewing garbage and damning everyone who doesn't believe as I do - those are YOUR words, not mine. You believe it's garbage - okay - you're free to do so. But there are many of us here who believe otherwise - and that's okay too!

It's insane that you can't see fundamentalist Christianity as hate-filled. Reminds me of all the crazy Muslims who bitch about infidels corrupting their society.

[2centsworth]

It's insane that you can't see fundamentalist Christianity as hate-filled. Reminds me of all the crazy Muslims who bitch about infidels corrupting their society.

cry me a river. Maybe pooping on a womans face is more loving to you. nobody hates you because you don't believe what we do. I admit my belief is a matter of faith. If you don't believe as I do, sobeit. I would still buy you a beer.

[Crookshanks]

It's insane that you can't see fundamentalist Christianity as hate-filled. Reminds me of all the crazy Muslims who bitch about infidels corrupting their society.

I'm not a fundamentalist - I'm an evangelical christian. But even so, Fundamentalists can be very narrow-minded and legalistic, but they're not hate-filled. But you know what - even those that are EXTREMELY legalistic don't advocate killing those who don't believe as they do! So please don't compare them to the Muslim extremists.

Maybe you're confusing the fact that they hate sins such as abortion and homosexuality with hating people. That's not true tho - they hate the sin, not the sinner!

[phyzik]

I've come to the conclusion there is really no point arguing with those that believe in some magical man who will save them and I have no quarell with them, I just posted my beliefs. I have my beliefs in myself, if the devine supreme ruller of the universe thinks I have lived my life wrong just because I didnt acknowledge him, then I honestly think he cant be a benevolent God who forgives all. There are just too many double standards about this supposed Christian God.

Im just curious, what happens to the next hobo that claims to be the ressurected Jesus and people waive his ass off as a crack head then he turns out to really be him? Somehow Christians are going to "Know" :rolleyes

Im sure people are going to accuse me of "giving up" but the truth is I was never trying to convert anyone, I was just expressing my views on the subject. I never engaged that nonsense unless it just sounded funny to me. I can understand the animosity with B2B and MH but I have never once said "your a fucking moron for believing bullshit" so I really cant understand why people want to attack me for my beliefs, if I did then fuck me, I must have been drunk or something. I will say though they came up with alot of the facts, no bullshit but facts, why I think organized religion is a bunch of bullshit.

Bottom line here is what I believe, all organized religion is a bunch of bullshit, there may be a larger entity humans may never be able to comprehend, but to think a religion created by man, ANY MAN, is correct, is setting yourself up for failure and I feel sorry for all of you being cowed by the bullshit.

I will finish with this, its like convincing a terrorist that they will not get Virgins for killing people in the name of their God. There's no way to convince them regardless of what evidence, being remotely correct or not, that they are wrong. They will believe what they want to believe.

[Winehole23]

Ecclesiastes 1:9

Jeez, y'all, reading through this thread it's like medieval philosophy never happened. Some of y'all need to put down the poison pens and get friendly with Western Civ.

Siger of Brabant (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1E1-SigerdeB.html)(Averroism (http://www.iep.utm.edu/i/ibnrushd.htm)). Augustine of Hippo (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Augustine_of_Hippo) (neoplatonism (http://www.iep.utm.edu/n/neoplato.htm)). The Doctor Mellifluous. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_of_Clairvaux)

Anselm of Canterbury (http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/anselm.htm), St. Bonaventure (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bonaventure/), Thomas Aquinas (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aquinas/), Dun Scotus (http://www.iep.utm.edu/s/scotus.htm), William of Ockham (http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/ockham.htm).

The antithesis of reason and revelation goes way, way back. Rather than attempt to do justice to the philosophical bramble growing up around it, follow the links. As suggested upstream by ES no amount of "liberated thinking" substitutes for doing your homework. I think I need to brush up on mine.

Etienne Gilson (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/233841/Etienne-Gilson) has good commentaries on the reason/revelation antinomy, both in short (http://www.craigburrell.ca/BookNotes/BookNote-Gilson-ReasonAndRevelation.html) and long (http://books.google.com/books?id=d2O1VkUpsCgC&pg=PA25&lpg=PA25&dq=theologism&source=bl&ots=RHBQxXz_78&sig=RPCuNaISXPaRTzcTlc3PYuTsnJU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result#PPA25,M1) form. He's a neo-thomist and thinks the two can be harmonized. I'm not, but I temperamentally agree. Natural science and theology do not necessarily contradict.
"(Gilson)To have faith is to assent to something because it is revealed by God. And now, what is it to have science? It is to assent to something which we perceive as true in the light of natural reason. The essential difference between these two distinct orders of assent should be carefully kept in mind by anybody dealing with the relations of Reason and Revelation."

"(Aquinas)it is impossible that one and the same thing should be believed and seen by the same person...it is equally impossible for one and the same thing to be an object of science and of belief for the same person"

All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it. (http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/1297.html) H. L. Mencken

[Summers]

Even though I never 100% support much due to the fact that I must leave the door open for anyone who can present something that proves me wrong,I must keep an open mind.

I don't 100% agree with everything Kent Hovind says but he does bring up some good evidence and it would be good if you would listen to a few of his speeches.

In this debate he goes head to head with three others.

xMpk7WerFWw



I watched an hour and 36 minutes of this (actually, I listened to it while I worked) and I'm still listening to it, but it's moved to questions from the audience, so I think I might call it a night soon. I found it really interesting, although at the moment, and I'm not kidding, he's comparing evolutionists to crazy psycho killers.

I'm going to be honest and say I know nothing about astronomy (yawn) or the details of carbon-dating, so I was intrigued by what he said about carbon 14. But what I do know a little something about is biology and evolution so I recognize the things he said about evolution as wrong or half-truths. The fossil record myth is one example. He is flat out wrong about vestigial bones and transitional forms in whales. He says we have no evidence that whales descended from four-legged creatures, when in fact we do. Creationists like to say there's no fossil record of transitional forms. I can show you what I think is a really fascinating example of whale transitional forms. It's only 5 minutes, but I watched an hour and 44 minutes now of your video:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/03/4/l_034_05.html

In addition to shaky evidence, he came off as very used-car-salesmany (with all due respect and apology to car salesmen). He ironically mocks evolution because we have never observed evolution in action (false, by the way). Three separate times in his presentation he implied that humans are incapable of morality and have no purpose in life except that which is given by God, calling evolution "stupid" and "dangerous". He asked if evolution is right how do we know right vs wrong? Do we ask Al Qaeda or Congress to tell us what's right or wrong? Again, irony.

He provided an interesting example of how science works without realizing it, I think. He told of National Geographic paying $80,000 for a fossil of of a dinosaur-bird transitional form. After examining it, they discovered the fossil was a hoax and quickly printed up a mea culpa. In other words, they admitted they were wrong about the fossil when the evidence didn't match their expectations. I would be thrilled if Hovind would simply admit at the beginning of his presentation instead of the end that his goal was to save my soul. That would be more honest and then he could stick to matters on which he's an expert instead of presenting false information about science.

[mouse]

That was a well unbiased review you should do movie reviews! :tu

Did you notice how the Atheist would always make some sort of remark like "did anyone understand what he just said?" Or they would laugh and say "that was a mouth full"

He did bring up a good point that many people want to believe in evolution so they won't have to obey any of the 10 commandments or follow any rules. He said most people don't really believe man cam from an ape they just don't want to be a so called Jesus freak so they have no choice but to cling onto the Darwin theories.

To be honest if Mr.Hovind would just stick to exposing the Atheist and not mention the Bible so much he would probably win over more collage students.

To be honest if Andy Dick (who i can't stand) can prove the earth is not Billions of years old I would quote him also.

[MiamiHeat]

Wow. Apparently I must LIVE on SpursTalk and not have a real life.

If I am missing from the thread , it MUST be because I have nothing more to say, right?

can't be that I have real life to go back to. it's 2:21 AM and i came to check what happened here. ridiculous, i'll be back tomorrow

[Summers]

So let me get this straight! Your able to quote a book written in 2007-2008 but I and others can't quote the Bible? How is that fair?

I don't care about the cowboy boot. You can Google it yourself It's not just Kent Hovind who feels it's a fossil, in fact i went to another site to get the info.

but since your in a debunking mood, let me toss a few others at you.

How long does it take to form sedimentary layers? Charles Officer is a research professor at Dartmouth. In his 1996 book, The Great Dinosaur Extinction Mystery, he says, "...a rate of one centimeter per 1000 years is typical," But just look and think about this 30 foot fossil tree. It is one of hundreds found near Cookville, TN in the Kettles coal mines which derived their name from the shape of the lower portion of these fossil trees. This tree begins in one coal seam, protrudes upward through numerous layers and finally into another layer of coal.

Think about that. What would happen to the top of the tree in the thousands of years necessary to cover it at the rate postulated by Officer. Derek Ager, one of the world’s best known statigraphers, addresses this challenge, acknowledging "...standing trees up to 10 m high in the Lancashire coalfield of north-west England. ...Obviously sedimentation had to be very rapid to bury a tree in a standing position before it rotted and fell down. ...Standing trees are known at many levels and in many parts of the world. ...we cannot escape the conclusion that sedimentation was at times very rapid indeed and that at other times there were long breaks in the sedimentation, though it looks uniform and continuous,

In spite of how it looks, long periods of time are still claimed, "shoehorned" between the layers, where there is no evidence. Now, which is really better science...imaginative explanations about why things are not as they appear to be, or a determination to follow the implications of what we actually see?

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-petrified-tree.jpg

Mudslides, silt (like in a river delta), or volcanic eruptions would cause that kind of rapid sedimentation.

Edited to add a recent example: the city of Pompeii (sp?). A whole city buried alive and remained intact.

[Summers]

That was a well unbiased review you should do movie reviews! :tu

Did you notice how the Atheist would always make some sort of remark like "did anyone understand what he just said?" Or they would laugh and say "that was a mouth full"

He did bring up a good point that many people want to believe in evolution so they won't have to obey any of the 10 commandments or follow any rules. He said most people don't really believe man cam from an ape they just don't want to be a so called Jesus freak so they have no choice but to cling onto the Darwin theories.

To be honest if Mr.Hovind would just stick to exposing the Atheist and not mention the Bible so much he would probably win over more collage students.

To be honest if Andy Dick (who i can't stand) can prove the earth is not Billions of years old I would quote him also.

Yes, to be fair, the biologist was haughty and rude. I should've mentioned that. He didn't "always" say "Did anyone understand that?" He said it once. To be fair, you should mention that the astronomer on the scientific panel said he was a devout Christian. It's bull to say people believe in evolution so they don't have to follow rules. I'm not trying to give an unbiased review of this debate. You told me he made some good points. I honestly didn't think so, but I tried to say so politely in my response. You should give me credit for watching the whole thing. I sincerely believe he brought false evidence to a scientific debate and got his hat handed to him.

"He said most people don't really believe man cam from an ape they just don't want to be a so called Jesus freak so they have no choice but to cling onto the Darwin theories." Actually I believe what he said is most people believe in God and tried to imply that the majority must be right.

Edited for spelling.

[Summers]

I've just realized the time and I'm forcing myself to go to bed, but not without saying that I always enjoy a lively debate but it's not personal. Mouse, it's been a pleasure having to think things I hadn't before. You were snarky, but I know you're a good guy because in the troll forum we often make sweet love. :lol I also want to make it clear to Mouse and others, for my own reasons, that I am not debating God, just evolution/creationism.

Good night and get some sleep!

[2centsworth]

I've come to the conclusion there is really no point arguing with those that believe in some magical man who will save them and I have no quarell with them, I just posted my beliefs. I have my beliefs in myself, if the devine supreme ruller of the universe thinks I have lived my life wrong just because I didnt acknowledge him, you're wrong because you're a filthy sinner like the rest of us. why try to play innocent? funny how no one is ever guilty of anything, no wonder the dudes in prison always say they are innocent.



then I honestly think he cant be a benevolent God who forgives all. of course he forgives all, but you're too proud to ask for forgiveness.



There are just too many double standards about this supposed Christian God. ?




Im just curious, what happens to the next hobo that claims to be the ressurected Jesus and people waive his ass off as a crack head then he turns out to really be him? Somehow Christians are going to "Know" :rolleyes now you're playing games.



Im sure people are going to accuse me of "giving up" but the truth is I was never trying to convert anyone, I was just expressing my views on the subject. I never engaged that nonsense unless it just sounded funny to me. I can understand the animosity with B2B and MH but I have never once said "your a fucking moron for believing bullshit" so I really cant understand why people want to attack me for my beliefs, if I did then fuck me, I must have been drunk or something. I will say though they came up with alot of the facts, no bullshit but facts, why I think organized religion is a bunch of bullshit. i'm trying to engage you, but you don't stay focused on a line of reasoning. You're all over the place. Stick to one point.



Bottom line here is what I believe, all organized religion is a bunch of bullshit, there may be a larger entity humans may never be able to comprehend, but to think a religion created by man, ANY MAN, is correct, is setting yourself up for failure and I feel sorry for all of you being cowed by the bullshit. you are the envy of the universe.



I will finish with this, its like convincing a terrorist that they will not get Virgins for killing people in the name of their God. There's no way to convince them regardless of what evidence, being remotely correct or not, that they are wrong. They will believe what they want to believe.again, all over the place

[Blackjack]

Is there a God?

Well, the correct answer would be no answer.

For those that choose to make the leap of faith, there's no argument to dissuade. Faith isn't a matter of logic or reason, so to debate it is futile.

For the posters that want to debate people, places, or events, by which religions are founded upon? There is definitely a debate to be had. Which I think is what B2B was trying to get at, when he was trying to seperate faith from the argument.

Whatever side you're on, the debate is certainly worth having. Well thought opposing viewpoints (which have been demonstrated in this thread) force the wit to be sharpened, thus bringing a more intelligent and evolved debate. The debate might not lead to a conversion, but some times success is found in the confirmation of ones views.

I've personally never felt the need to choose, or come to a conclusion, one way or the other. I figure we'll all have our answer soon enough.

I try to live a decent life, treat people with respect, and do more harm than good in general, but that's just me. I guess I feel if there is a "God", I'd feel like I was in pretty good shape, and if not, those are the type of things one wouldn't regret.

I think the real question that should be asked is:

Is God the answer for you?

If having faith and believeing brings, comfort, happiness, or purpose to your life? Than so be it.

If the belief in a god, or the idea of faith, insults your intelligence? Than so be it.

I guess all you can do is, find what works for you, and pray/hope for the best.


True believers, will believe.

Skeptics theories will always fail...

While skeptics find religion based in faith,

Leaves holes for logic and reason to prevail.

Really enjoyed the thread so far, props to all that contributed.:toast

[MiamiHeat]

By the way, that list is not even COMPLETE.

How about the fact that Set, a mighty God wanted to kill Horus the baby? Isis had to run and hide Horus.

while the mighty King Herod wanted to kill Jesus the baby? Mary had to run and hide Jesus.

-----

Horus, "the living God on Earth"
Jesus, "the living God on Earth"

-------------

Bethlehem is known as 'house of bread'. Horus' Anunn, also known as house of bread.

The similarities are so deep, the list is longer than that I posted.

I'll start with your 'refutations'



.

-Horus was born of the virgin (FALSE -- not a virgin)

Actually, Horus' birth WAS of an immaculate conception, aka virgin birth. You see, Osiris was DEAD. Isis tried to piece him back together, but she couldn't. His penis was thrown in a river. So she hovered over his body and 'drew his essence'.... She was impregnated by spirit. There was no actual intercourse and impregnation.

Isis was a -virgin goddess-. If you want to tell me that because she and Osiris were together that she wasn't a virgin, then how about we open the pickle jar and talk about Mary being married to Joseph yet still a virgin?


There is even another story about Mut-em-ua, the Virgin Queen of Egypt.

The God Taht announced to her that she would become pregnant.
The god Kneph (the Holy Spirit) mystically impregnated the virgin Isis by holding a cross, the symbol of life, to her mouth.

etc... This is not new. By the way, Mut is also one of ISIS' names. The Great Mother, Mut-Isis-Nekkhbet, all the same Goddess Mother.


- Isis-Meri (FALSE -- Merion is never appended to Isis)

Incorrect again. Isis is not her ONLY name. 'Goddess of Many Names' / 'Queen of the Gods' Click her for Link about Isis (http://www.ancientnile.co.uk/gods.php)

She is also known as Aset, Ast, Est, Meri-En-Sakar, and many others.

You see Egyptian Gods had -many forms- but they were all just different incarnations of the same Gods. One of Isis' forms was the Goddess of Nature and Harvest - MERI-EN-SAKAR. Click here for link (http://books.google.com/books?id=hlFtAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA334&lpg=PA334&dq=egyptian+god+meri&source=web&ots=b1eQammvH7&sig=KFWlUdbhLfUNFSTsFykZhXo8djY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA334,M1) They are all forms of ISIS, the Mother.

Isis ultimately absorbed and represented hundreds if not thousands of different goddesses, all forms of the Mother, ISIS. Her worship survived until around the 6th century AD, until it was largely replaced by the new Mother, Mary, whose name was obviously influenced by Isis' form of MERI, Goddess of Nature and Harvest.

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/images/mary.jpg

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/images/isis6.jpg


- December 25 (FALSE -- November 15, roughly)

Incorrect again. Ancient Egyptians, in fact, ALMOST EVERY MAJOR CIVILIZATION in human history celebrated Dec. 25th because that is when the Sun begins it's journey back to Spring and Summer.

This is said to be the Sun 'reborn' and coming back from death. Horus being the Sun God, Egyptians celebrated Horus birth as Dec. 21st-25th, but his ACTUAL entrance into Earth was "on the last day of the Egyptian Khoaik" which falls around Nov. 15

Jesus' birth day is NEVER mentioned in the Bible, however it too is celebrated on Dec. 25th once again, to coincide with the worship of the Sun. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.

Therefore, both Horus and Jesus are just forms of Sun worship and their birthdays ARE celebrated on Dec. 21st-25th even though NEITHER Jesus nor Horus was actually born on that day.

with his birth being announced by a star in the East (FALSE -- fabrication)

The Star in the East is Sirius. Sirius was -THE MOST IMPORTANT- Star to ancient Egyptians. The entire Egyptian calendar was based on the rising of Sirius. They created 12 months, with 30 days each.

Sirius is also EQUIVALENT to -Isis- .

link here (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/universo/esp_sirio09.htm)

So. Isis aka Sirius, the mother of Horus, heralds her son's/the Sun's arrival.


and attended by three wise men.(FALSE -- fabrication, and note that the number of Magi in the biblical account is never defined)

Once again...

The Bible says the wise men brought 3 gifts. Gold, frankincense and myrrh. We assume it's 3 men.

However, we can now be SURE it is 3 men. The wise men ask Herod "Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him."

They saw his star in the east. The bright Star in The East has always been known as SIRIUS. In Orion's belt, there are 3 stars that point to Sirius. They always point to Sirius. They have always been called the THE THREE KINGS OF ORION.

By the way, Sirius is known as Isis, the constellation near Sirius is that of Orion, which was attributed to Osiris. Horus coming from the Father, through the Mother, to rise on Earth. Jesus says I come from my Father who sent me. Horus coming from Osiris (Orion)

-3- stars point directly to Sirius, which in turn, Sirius heralds the coming of the Sun. The Three Kings of Orion.


I will do the rest later.

[MiamiHeat]

About Jesus being born in Nazareth :

Nazareth is very closely worded to Nazaroth which in Hebrew is “the twelve signs (of the zodiac).” The root verb nazar means to “surround” as in the twelve constellations of the zodiac which pass overhead each night, thus surrounding the earth.[22] Job is reminded of his human limitations and the celestial astrological power of Yahweh, when the latter speaks to him from a raging desert whirlwind:

Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Nazaroth in his season?[23]

This theory is supported by the evidence that the inhabitants of Qumran by the Dead Sea, who Pliny referred to as Essenes, used a solar-based calendar, rather than the traditional lunar-based Judaic calendar. Pliny the Younger reported in a letter to the emperor Trajan in 112 CE that “Christians appear to be harmless people who meet at daybreak and sign hymns to the honor of the Christo quasi deo (the Christ as if he were a god).”

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/virgin_birth.html

[mouse]

Mudslides, silt (like in a river delta), or volcanic eruptions would cause that kind of rapid sedimentation.

Edited to add a recent example: the city of Pompeii (sp?). A whole city buried alive and remained intact.

or maybe a flood? I like how the Atheist avoid bringing up the flood because it may give the bible some merit. Where scientist screw up is when they claim each layer is a million years old. Everyone knows if you have jar full of water dirt and sand and you shake it you will see it settle down in layers. And usually in a matter of minutes.
Scientist use the layers as a way to figure out the age of the earth using the geologic column which doesn't exist anywhere only in the text books.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-463331.png
They show the fossils found in each layer to give you a chart on how to determine age of a certain fossil.

But it's been exposed as a fake since scientist now know it didn't take a millions of years to create. They have found in a mine many trees that where not only standing up but some of them where upside down with layers of sediment. It proved that layers don't always mean millions of years.


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-462840.png

[mouse]

Another point: Niagara falls reseeds at least 4 feet each year due to erosion of the rock from the power of the rushing water. The crest of the falls can be documented and photos show it's progress. The question is if the earth is at least a half a million years old the water fall should have move all the way to lake Eerie by now.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/139/325276670_8f8ea6d195.jpg

[MiamiHeat]

Judaism's "Noah's Flood" is a plagiarization of Babylonian "EPIC OF GILGAMESH" and even the much older Sumerian story in "Eridu Genesis" of the Flood where Gods decide to destroy mankind with a flood.

===================================
The earliest extant Flood myth is the fragmentary Sumerian Eridu Genesis, datable by its script to the 17th century BC.[1]

The Sumerian myth tells how the god Enki warns Ziusudra (meaning "he saw life," in reference to the gift of immortality given him by the gods), of the gods' decision to destroy mankind in a flood - the passage describing why the gods have decided this is lost. Enki instructs Ziusudra (also known as Atrahasis) to build a large boat - the text describing the instructions is also lost. After which he is left to repopulate the earth, as in many other flood myths.

After a flood of seven days, Zi-ud-sura makes appropriate sacrifices and prostrations to An (sky-god) and Enlil (chief of the gods), and is given eternal life in Dilmun (the Sumerian Eden) by An and Enlil.

====================


Yeah, even Noah's flood is copied from older stories.

Sorry to break it to ya

Oh, and http://www.asa3.org/asa/PSCF/2002/PSCF9-02Hill.pdf

[Summers]

or maybe a flood? I like how the Atheist avoid bringing up the flood because it may give the bible some merit. Where scientist screw up is when they claim each layer is a million years old. Everyone knows if you have jar full of water dirt and sand and you shake it you will see it settle down in layers. And usually in a matter of minutes.
Scientist use the layers as a way to figure out the age of the earth using the geologic column which doesn't exist anywhere only in the text books.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-463331.png
They show the fossils found in each layer to give you a chart on how to determine age of a certain fossil.

But it's been exposed as a fake since scientist now know it didn't take a millions of years to create. They have found in a mine many trees that where not only standing up but some of them where upside down with layers of sediment. It proved that layers don't always mean millions of years.


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/vlcsnap-462840.png

Good morning Mouse. :)

I didn't bring up a flood because flood waters recede and only leave a few inches of silt, not yards. I was answering your question: mudslides, delta silt, or volcanoes cause polystrate fossils like the one pictured. I'm not a geologist, but upright fossils are found along with evidence of the phenomena I've mentioned and do not expose the fossil record as fake.

[Summers]

Another point: Niagara falls reseeds at least 4 feet each year due to erosion of the rock from the power of the rushing water. The crest of the falls can be documented and photos show it's progress. The question is if the earth is at least a half a million years old the water fall should have move all the way to lake Eerie by now.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/139/325276670_8f8ea6d195.jpg

Who said Niagara Falls is as old as the Earth? In fact, the point I've made before is that the superficial features of the Earth change over time. I don't know what was there a billion years ago. Maybe it was a small volcano. Maybe it was a rain forest. Maybe a receding glacier carved up the landscape. Maybe the faultline shifted and then a stream of water did the rest.

Edited to say I couldn't resist googling it and Niagara Falls is about 12,000 years old, which is when the last glacier receding from North America.

[BacktoBasics]

Actually MH touched on a few things I was going to post this morning for ES.

I'm going to go back to my original point because its lost once again. I never set out to prove that there is no god. I'm tired of you people telling me that I haven't proved that there is no god because that was never my point.

Furthermore I stated from day 1 that many gods whether their lifes and times correlate to Jesus or not are personifications of astrological bodies rooted in relative time on earth.

Going back to the pagan calendar times and eras in relation to real time point to significant constellations summed up here


The zodiac is the belt or band of constellations through which the Sun, Moon, and planets move on their journey across the sky. Astrologers noted these constellations and so attached a particular significance to them. Over time they developed the system of twelve signs of the zodiac, based on twelve of the constellations they considered to be particularly important. Most western astrologers use the tropical zodiac beginning with the sign of Aries at the Northern hemisphere Vernal Equinox always on or around March 21 of each year. Due to a phenomenon called precession of the equinoxes (where the Earth's axis slowly rotates like a spinning top in a 25,700 year cycle), there is a slow shift in the correspondence between Earth's seasons (and calendar) and the constellations of the zodiac. For this reason some Western astrologers use the Sidereal zodiac which still uses the actual star positions.

Important dates:

Easter should be associated with Passover, but Passover is fixed at 14th Nisan in the Hebrew calendar while Easter was fixed by the increasingly anti-Semitic church to fall on the Sunday after the full moon following the spring equinox

The name, "Easter" is derived from a pagan spring / fertility deity who appears variously as Eostre, the Saxon goddess of dawn with a hare's head (the origin of Easter bunnies), Ishtar from Ninevah, introduced into Britain with the Druids, Astarte the queen of heaven from Babylon whose worship involved sexual depravity! (The egg figures prominently in the worship of Easter - Astarte was said to have sprung from an Egg which fell from Heaven into the Euphrates) Even the fast of Lent which was introduce in the sixth century was borrowed from Babylon. A similar fast was observed by the Egyptians in commemoration of Osiris.

Palm Sunday This was not necessarily a Sunday on the year of Jesus' entry to Jerusalem, but the event occured on 10th of Nisan. Jesus entered Jerusalem to be tested by the religious authorities on the day that the Passover lambs were taken into the homes to be inspected to ensure they were free from blemish and suitable to be sacrificed.

The traditional greeting to pilgrims coming up to Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) for Passover was "Baruch haba bashem Adonai" (Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord" (Psalm 118 v 26). This took on a special significance when Jesus entered Jerusalem. (His name Yeshua means "The Lord is Salvation")

Christmas was not celebrated until the fourth century. The date of 25th December was fixed by the Council of Nicea to take over the pagan midwinter solstice festival of sol invictus (unconquered sun). It also conveniently took over the Roman winter festival of Saturnalia; December 17-21st. There were pragmatic reasons for this but it taints the celebration of our Saviour's birth with pagan symbols and customs.

Shabbat, The Saturday Sabbath was observed by the early church and was kept in Britain until around the twelfth century. The celebration of a Sunday Sabbath (even as "resurrection day" ) was never commanded in scripture. The Sabbath of the fourth commandment was another victim of the state controlled church's desire to cut away from Jewish roots. Shabbat was the sign of the LORD's chosen and faithful people, the one which marked out the Jews for persecution down through the ages.


So what you have is a structure of organized beliefs thats centered around dates of significant importance in relation to periods of time. I managed to find a clip done by someone with way too much time on their hands


Prophecy ... (Daniel 9:24)



"He (Messiah ... the King] will be revealed

7 weeks + 62 weeks (weeks of years)

after the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls,

then He [Messiah] will be cut-off (executed)."

(Daniel 9:24)



This is a mathematical prophecy . . .



- A week of years (shabua or shabu’im) = 7 years

- "Cut-off". . . the actual Hebrew word used was karath, literally means "executed!"

- The "70th Week" [the last 7 years] of this prophecy is yet future - See the 'Apocalypse.'



God gave the Jews the most sophisticated calendar on Earth. It is both a Lunar and a Solar calendar. The Jewish calendar uses a 360 day lunar (and prophetic) year and then adds a 'Leap Month' on specific years to accurately coincide with the Solar cycle we use on our 'Julian' calendar ...



The Bible uses 360 day years for prophecies and expects us to add the appropriate 'leap months' on schedule. So, the easiest way to unravel this prophecy is to first convert this prophecy into days ...



1. Add 7 + 62 weeks of years = 69 weeks of years in this prophecy

2. Multiply 69 (weeks) x 7 (to get the total number of years in this prophecy) = 483 years

3. Multiply 483 years x 360 (to get the total number of days in this prophecy) = 173,880 days



So, the prophet Daniel, who lived 500 years before Jesus-Yeshua wrote that from the day of the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls, until the coming Messiah would be 173,880 days!

(Note: This prophecy was also translated from Hebrew into Greek in the Septuagint almost 300 years before Jesus-Yeshua made His prophetic entry into Jerusalem, riding on a donkey.)



To convert the 173,880 days found in this prophecy into our 365.25 day solar years (the .25 adjusts for leap years) . . .



173,880 days ÷ 365.25 (days in a year) = 476 years (our solar 'Julian' calendar)



So, the prophet Daniel told us it would be 476 years from the 'commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and its walls' to the time the Messiah of Israel would first be revealed to the nation and to the world ...





The Commandment ...



This prophecy of the coming Messiah is both remarkable and extremely precise. There were other orders to rebuild the Temple, but, there was only one commandment to restore Jerusalem and its wall. On March 14th, 445 BC, as confirmed by modern archaeology, King Artexerxes I of Persia issued the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem and specifically included its wall (see Nehemiah 2:2-9 ... the book of Nehemiah records this account of rebuilding the city and its wall.)





Prophecy fulfilled ...



Now take the 476 years in this prophecy and simply start counting from March 14, 445 B.C. (when the command to rebuild the city Jerusalem and its wall was given) and you end on the exact year (even the very day) Jesus-Yeshua rode 'triumphantly' into Jerusalem (Palm Sunday), being praised as King and Messiah by thousands upon thousands of the Jewish people who had gathered from all over for the Passover Holidays. Honored, yet lowly, riding on a donkey - exactly as another prophet, the prophet Zechariah, said He would ...



"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion [Israel]!

Behold, your King [Messiah] is coming to you;

He is just and having salvation,

yet He is lowly and riding on a donkey."

(Zechariah 9:9 ... written around 500 B.C.)



Thus, on the 10th day of Nisan ('Palm Sunday') 32 AD ... 476 years after the command was given to rebuild the city and its wall ... Jesus-Yeshua made His famous triumphal entry into Jerusalem, riding on a donkey. It was the only day that He ever allowed Himself to be honored as Messiah or King (Mark 11:1-12) as the people of Israel cried out and sang "Hosanna to the Son of David [this is a Psalm of the Messiah], blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!" from Psalm 118 ... (and all this took place just a few days before He was 'executed' exactly as Daniel's prophecy said He would!)

A remarkable prophecy . . . simply count the years!

March 14, 445 B.C. Order is issued to rebuild the wall

to April 6, 32 A.D. 10th of Nisan, 'Palm Sunday' - Jesus welcomed as King and Messiah

= 477 years

- 1 year Subtract one for no "0" A.D. or B.C.

= 476 years Exactly!

So using math you can accurately go back and make significant correlations with a multitude of different calendars depicting scores of important time periods, years, eras, seasons and so. All of which had their own special "god" or personification.

Since we find similarities between these personifications we see the pattern. Very little about Jesus was original. Most dates and moments of significance correlate to a personified god or time, era, season, year and so on.

Everything we have about Jesus is lifted from another source (god or time structure). There is zero first hand writings and everything thats referenced is a copy of a copy of a copy so much to the point that the very church which supports its cause questions authenticity. I've posted previously in this thread where the church has waited years, decades and centuries before authenticating bodies of work due to uncertainty.

How can you site sources that the church finds questionable or has admittedly altered to fit modern Christianity?

We can argue specifics about each and every god but the correlations still go back to time and math in relation to many variations of ancient calendars personifying points of interest.

So arguing the specifics of each god is competely irrelevant when it all boils down to mathematical time rooted in calendars long before the mathematical time pieces where used in the name of Jesus.