Is there a God?

[Phenomanul]

I'm off to lunch... later.

[Blake]

Adam and Eve were Jews? Interesting....

Was Job a Jew?

Try again.

youve got to be kidding me.

[Blake]

Sounds like the blunder is backfiring already. :)

just like it usually does when people try to cram their personal agendas down others' throats.

[MiamiHeat]

It is highly likely that the writers of the Gospels couldn't list every single Messianic prophecy, let alone comprehend them. .

WHAT???

Isis and Osiris/Horus WERE WIDELY WORSHIPPED THROUGHOUT THE ROMAN EMPIRE. As was MITHRAISM and a myriad of other Gods.

You have no idea what you are talking about

[I Love Me Some Me]

Really, I don't know how much more simply I can put this for you. Let's use the Bible...the gospel account of Jesus and his life...as a guideline, since that is indisputably the earliest account of what we are debating here.

I'd also like to address the underlying logical inconsistency with comparing Egyptian gods to Jesus. It's impossible to compare a core Jesus (one individual in the gospels) to the combined characteristics of multiple legends of someone called by the same name. Horus, for example, has about 20 different legends/dieties, all with different tales and variations. When you (as you have repeatedly done throughout this thread) decide that you can combine all 20 different versions of the Horus story, and pick (buffet-style) particular aspects of particular versions to best make your point, you are BOUND to find some similarities, and create enough to help your point. (Still not good enough, BTW).

To compare like-to-like, you'll need to confine your description of the god to one specific version, or you'll need to expand your description of the god to include all aspects of all versions. In other words, pick one because you can't argue both.



1) Isis was Immaculate (http://books.google.com/books?id=gDxDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=engraving+of+serapis+and+isis+immaculate&source=web&ots=5nIz46AD0S&sig=sxgiCWtn941L_do_575UvCm36cQ#PPA166,M1)

2) You are nitpicking again, severely nitpicking and assuming.

Isis gave birth without intercourse. A "begotten by a ray of light from heaven"

Earlier, you were nitpicking about sexual penetration. I just provided you the evidence, and now you just want to argue whether or not Isis had ever had sex prior to this birth.

It's quite clear what your intentions are.

:lol

How does this become evidence? You link to a book published in 1885 that refers to Isis as "Immaculate", but still doesn't call her a virgin. (Do I really have to explain the difference to you?)



You can criticize the Roman Catholic church to legitimize your Protestant belief system until you are exhausted, but it doesn't change this little fact :

The Roman Catholic Church is -the reason- Christianity is where it is today. They are the original Christian Protestants.

You see, there were many different forms of Christianity, it was all one muddy mess, just like the ancient religions. Many different accounts of the same thing.




There were Ebionite Christians, Arian Christians, Marcionite Christians, etc. Their belief systems were so alien to what you know today, that during the Council of Nicea, the roman church tore Arian teachings (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm) and letters during the meeting for being too different.

Yet, now you want to act like christianity is any different from the ancient religions.

I can't make this any simpler for you. My argument deals ONLY with the issue of the New Testament content...not the Roman Catholic Church, not the Councils of Nicea, not hymnals, not iconic images, not the Church Fathers, not the sects, not the Apocrypha. I am concerned only with the Jesus of the gospels. Items and elemnts "borrowed" from non-Christian religions after the fact are not relevant to our discussion.




1) Osiris, Isis, and Horus are all incarnations of the one supreme "creator of all things" Re (Ra) (http://www.touregypt.net/GODS1.HTM). Osiris, Isis, and all other gods are just incarnations from Re (http://touregypt.net/featurestories/litany.htm). Amun, Aten, they are all aspects of RA. During the New Kingdom, the Aten was considered to be an aspect of the composite deity Ra-Amun-Horus. (http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/amarnareligion.html) All one and the same, associated as the one creator of all things, Re (Ra).


2) Around 1351-1356 BCE, there was an Egyptian Pharoah named Amenhotep IV, husband of the famous Nefertiti. At one point, he changed his name to Akhenaten, and he established one of the first instances of monotheism, the worship of just -1- God and the dismissal of all others. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/akhenaten.shtml)

The idea of worship of only 1 supreme god is commonly mistaken as having begun with the Jews.

This badly pre-dates Judaism.


3) Anyway, I said that the 'ORIGINAL Holy Trinity' was Osiris, Isis, and Horus. Obviously, the concept of the trinity was borrowed and changed around. Instead of Isis, they have 'the holy spirit', which is basically the Father anyway.

And again, find me a reference in the New Testament (MY source for this discussion) that mentions anything related to a Trinity, and we'll discuss it. Until then, this is a moot point.

[smeagol]

I find no validity in any of it because you have no first hand original documentation from when the man was alive and no physical evidence.

Third and forth and 60th hand accounts aren't enough for me.

Show me fist hand accounts of The Republic, by Plato.

Show me first hand accounts of all the Egyptian-myths.

[BacktoBasics]

Gospel talk? Really?

I'm talking about the mathematical probabilities of the information contained within the gospels. Mind-baffling probabilities... Clearly a product of statistical significance despite the fact that it wasn't written with that intent.

I'm also talking about the historical relevance of Bethlehem, and the tribe of Judah (modern day Jews)...

You ignore at your own peril.
I also showed in this thread a mathematical account of key moments in the mans life. Mathematics that pre-dated his existence that were rooted in an astrological calendar.

You ignore at no peril.

Enjoy your lunch

[Winehole23]

MiamiHeat:

All religions are historically determinate in their emergence, qua religions. Newer creeds will take elements of whatever preceded them or tried to assimilate them to be sure, but putting the emphasis on historical precedence and influence to the exclusion of all else surely discloses a bias: against novel content. What's pretty clear is that you have not yet penetrated far enough into the subject of your own criticism, to find the target.

That is why it is ultimately unconvincing for you to point at thematic similarities between ancient religions and Christianity and leave it at that. Perhaps if you had some kind of structural analysis to hang it on, I could take you a little more seriously, MH, but all you've presented so far is a ragbag of antiquity that you pick over like a buffet line.

Why should the most ancient be the most authoritative? You act as if the very existence of religion previous to Christianity refutes it, because influences can be detected. Why should this be necessarily so?

[BacktoBasics]

Show me fist hand accounts of The Republic, by Plato.

I'm not debating Plato. I haven't the slightest idea if he existed or didn't.

Show me first hand accounts of all the Egyptian-myths.


I can't. They're myths. Bingo. I told you they weren't real. Are we agreeing here?

Thanks for not hurling insults my way this time.

[BacktoBasics]

You act as if the very existence of religion previous to Christianity refutes it, because influences can be detected. Why should this be necessarily so?I'm not disagreeing entirely with your point but what it does do is show a precendent for a general layout. A layout that has correlations to not just story lines derived from an opinion but key dates and events that are directly mathematically solvable within all religions as a whole. Bits and pieces here and there that all seem to fit at some point with each other.

Its like having the plans to a first generation automobile from the early century and then debating whether or not modern automobiles did or didn't originate from that previous entity. Obviously so much has changed and each auto builder has put their own touch on things but you can see where bits and pieces would have been birthed from the original ideals.

[smeagol]

Thanks for not hurling insults my way this time.

You are welcome.

Now, for the nth time, try to develop an answer for my question:


One more time:

How did this myth about Christ develop? You have a man (or maybe not, according to you) being born on the year 1 AD and dying on the year 33 AD.

There were disciples of this man that wrote his life story, starting less than 20years from his death. You have written documents from the 2nd C that prove that those books of the Bible existed. You have other writings from Christians, starting around the year 90 AD, going all the way to the our time, that attest to Christ's existance.

So, once again, where exactly did the Christ-myth develop?

Was it the apostles that invented him?

Was it St Paul?

Was it the next generation og Christians that pushed this myth further?

These are the questions you need to answer.

[smeagol]

I can't. They're myths. Bingo. I told you they weren't real. Are we agreeing here?

Yet you use these myths to explain Christianity. How can you be so sure these myths are the correct ones, given that there is no first hand account of them.

[BacktoBasics]

Yet you use these myths to explain Christianity. How can you be so sure these myths are the correct ones, given that there is no first hand account of them.I don't think that they are correct. I think they're stories.

I think Christianity is a compelation of many stories, astrological moments in time and hearsay accounts about either a mortal man or a mythical one. I'm not the best person or best equipped person to pull it all together for a single post on this thread.

I'm not trying to avoid your question. I just don't have the time here at work to formulate everything in single post to fully illustrate my stance. I'm trying to not sound like I'm copping out but I can seem to find the verbage to relate how I feel without writing out 100+ pages along with all my sources. Too big of a question to pen. A fair question nonetheless. I know that response fuels your fire but oh well.

[Blake]

Why should the most ancient be the most authoritative?

It might not be, but it's tough to make an argument that it's the right religion when it's not the oldest.

We here in the western part of the world mostly ascribe to Christianity and the Bible as being the source above all sources, yet many of the Shiite Muslims out of Iran trace their religious roots back to Zoroastrianism which many think pre-date Judaism.

Why is it that Westerners know more about stuff that came out of the Middle East than actual Middle Eastern people?

[MiamiHeat]

suffice it to say, that most intellectuals see the truth behind all of this. most scientists/scholars/whatever do not believe in a god because they confronted these problems at some point in their life and came to the same conclusion.

the rest of you in this thread are either trolling, scared/in denial/whatever to let go and admit the situation, or just plain simpletons like angel_luv ( i feel bad already, sorry :toast).

personally, i suspect a lot of trolling in this thread :wakeup

"It is finished"

[Blake]

Yet you use these myths to explain Christianity. How can you be so sure these myths are the correct ones, given that there is no first hand account of them.

How can you be sure any stories are the correct ones.

How do you know aliens haven't walked among us? Plenty of eyewitness accounts say they have.

[Blake]

suffice it to say, that most intellectuals see the truth behind all of this. most scientists/scholars/whatever do not believe in a god because they confronted these problems at some point in their life and came to the same conclusion.

the rest of you in this thread are either trolling, scared/in denial/whatever to let go and admit the situation, or just plain simpletons like angel_luv ( i feel bad already, sorry :toast).

personally, i suspect a lot of trolling in this thread :wakeup

"It is finished"

now this is a bad post.

[Phenomanul]

"It is finished"

Actually the account of what Jesus said was, "Tetelestai"... which is closer in meaning to "paid in full" than to "it is finished".....

[smeagol]

I don't think that they are correct. I think they're stories.

I think Christianity is a compelation of many stories, astrological moments in time and hearsay accounts about either a mortal man or a mythical one. I'm not the best person or best equipped person to pull it all together for a single post on this thread.

I'm not trying to avoid your question. I just don't have the time here at work to formulate everything in single post to fully illustrate my stance. I'm trying to not sound like I'm copping out but I can seem to find the verbage to relate how I feel without writing out 100+ pages along with all my sources. Too big of a question to pen. A fair question nonetheless. I know that response fuels your fire but oh well.

Well, until we can engage on a debate regarding the answer to that question, there is not much more I can add to the thread. I'm no expert on Egyptian or other ancient religions. But I have read extensively about the origins of Chrstianity and I'm ready to debate how Christianity was born out of a myth (or not).

[smeagol]

suffice it to say, that most intellectuals see the truth behind all of this. most scientists/scholars/whatever do not believe in a god because they confronted these problems at some point in their life and came to the same conclusion.

And I'm sure you have a study that proves this . . .


the rest of you in this thread are either trolling, scared/in denial/whatever to let go and admit the situation, or just plain simpletons like angel_luv ( i feel bad already, sorry :toast).

personally, i suspect a lot of trolling in this thread :wakeup

"It is finished"

You have no clue what the definition of a troll is.

[smeagol]

How can you be sure any stories are the correct ones.

How do you know aliens haven't walked among us? Plenty of eyewitness accounts say they have.

True.

So why the hell are we discussing this?

[smeagol]

now this is one more bad post in a long line of horrendous posts.

Fixed

[Phenomanul]

I also showed in this thread a mathematical account of key moments in the mans life. Mathematics that pre-dated his existence that were rooted in an astrological calendar.

You ignore at no peril.

Enjoy your lunch

Astronomical motion which was defined by His own hand. Your astrological argument only serves to stregthen the belief that GOD is in control of the heavens... So much so that other civilizations have also noticed His handiwork.

And for the nth time, the fact that the Roman Empire prescribed certain dates to mark the celebration for the birth and death of Jesus Christ does nothing to negate the fact that those events took place. The fact that they borrowed pagan dates, as a token of compromise to further unify their empire, was probably wrong though deemed necessary at the time. Even still, this mistake, does nothing to negate the fact that Jesus existed.

[BacktoBasics]

Astronomical motion which was defined by His own hand. Your astrological argument only serves to stregthen the belief that GOD is in control of the heavens... So much so that other civilizations have also noticed His handiwork.

And for the nth time, the fact that the Roman Empire prescribed certain dates to mark the celebration for the birth and death of Jesus Christ does nothing to negate the fact that those events took place. The fact that they borrowed pagan dates, as a token of compromise to further unify their empire, was probably wrong though deemed necessary at the time. Even still, this mistake, does nothing to negate the fact that Jesus existed.You didn't need to say all this. This is the kind of garbage I hear all the time. You guys will take anything for your own. If concrete proof shows up...god put it there. If another god showed up tomorrow and said you guys had it all wrong you'd say god did that to test us. :lmao

Oh oh I see how you did some calculations that pre-date his existence based on items that have nothing to do with religion........................................um yeah that was god working mkay.

Everything strengthens your argument. You guys have spent more time fabricating ways to tie up loose ends than you have understanding religion as a whole across the entire Earth.

Thats not a personal jab either so don't get up on your 100,000ft horse to tell me you know a lot about religion...it was a generalization.

[Phenomanul]

1) Adam and Eve is a creation story of the Jews. The egyptian civilization pre-dates them by thousands of years.




I was unaware that Adam and Eve were dated to any particular time...

Hence, how can you claim with any certainty that the egyptians pre-date them by any amount of time?

[Phenomanul]

You didn't need to say all this. This is the kind of garbage I hear all the time. You guys will take anything for your own. If concrete proof shows up...god put it there. If another god showed up tomorrow and said you guys had it all wrong you'd say god did that to test us. :lmao

Oh oh I see how you did some calculations that pre-date his existence based on items that have nothing to do with religion........................................um yeah that was god working mkay.

Everything strengthens your argument. You guys have spent more time fabricating ways to tie up loose ends than you have understanding religion as a whole across the entire Earth.

Thats not a personal jab either so don't get up on your 100,000ft horse to tell me you know a lot about religion...it was a generalization.

I didn't arrive at this argument... I told you so the first time you tried using your illogical claims as irrefutable proof. You just didn't listen.

[Blake]

True.

So why the hell are we discussing this?

uh, probably because of statements like


"But I have read extensively about the origins of Chrstianity and I'm ready to debate how Christianity was born out of a myth (or not)."

I'm not saying I know for a fact one way or the other about any of this (as no one can....) but to keep on with this "prove Plato existed" is bogus argumentation.

If you have a handfull of stories regarding gods throwing lightning bolts, humans with super strength, or men walking on water and raising people from the dead, then if you feel you are right about one of these, then it is really on you to prove it.........it is not on B2B or anyone else to prove that Plato or George Washington or Saddam Hussein ever existed at all.

[Blake]

I was unaware that Adam and Eve were dated to any particular time...

Hence, how can you claim with any certainty that the egyptians pre-date them by thousands of years?

but you can claim with certainty that Adam and Eve existed in the Garden of Eden and were tossed out because they ate the wrong fruit?

ok, I'm listening.

[MiamiHeat]

How can you be sure any stories are the correct ones.

How do you know aliens haven't walked among us? Plenty of eyewitness accounts say they have.

what about the people around the world who live and died like tribes in the amazon and other places, that were completely unaware of the existence of our religions :lol

i guess they go to hell :downspin:

[Phenomanul]

but you can claim with certainty that Adam and Eve existed in the Garden of Eden and were tossed out because they ate the wrong fruit?

ok, I'm listening.

I accept that truth on grounds of faith. I've never stated otherwise.

[Phenomanul]

Don't change the subject. You've done this repeatedly.


what about the people around the world who live and died like tribes in the amazon and other places, that were completely unaware of the existence of our religions :lol

i guess they go to hell :downspin:

As for this question, I honestly don't know. I've often pondered about the same question; but the Word of GOD is vague on this issue. The answer may in fact be there, but people have not yet uncovered its relevance to this particular dilemma.

[BacktoBasics]

I didn't arrive at this argument... I told you so the first time you tried using your illogical claims as irrefutable proof. You just didn't listen.Ironic you calling me illogical when you took a sound mathematical equation and turned it into supernatural magic happy time.

[BacktoBasics]

As for this question, I honestly don't know. I've often pondered about the same question; but the Word of GOD is vague on this issue. The answer may in fact be there, but people have not yet uncovered its relevance to this particular dilemma.Angel Luv said the ignorant are innocent.

[Blake]

what about the people around the world who live and died like tribes in the amazon and other places, that were completely unaware of the existence of our religions :lol

i guess they go to hell :downspin:

that's one of my biggest questions that constantly goes unanswered.

[MiamiHeat]

seriously, we must be arguing with people who just want to make us argue for laughs :)

no rational, intelligent person when confronted with these problems will just dismiss them as meaningless.

[Blake]

Don't change the subject. You've done this repeatedly.



As for this question, I honestly don't know. I've often pondered about the same question; but the Word of GOD is vague on this issue. The answer may in fact be there, but people have not yet uncovered its relevance to this particular dilemma.

it means that if the ignorant are innocent then I want to beat the crap out of whoever told me about what I have to do get saved.

Apparently I was just fine before they came along.

[101A]

that's one of my biggest questions that constantly goes unanswered.

As a Christian I believe that the only way to the Lord is through Jesus Christ. He said so.


He didn't say when it had to happen, however.

[angel_luv]

Don't change the subject. You've done this repeatedly.



As for this question, I honestly don't know. I've often pondered about the same question; but the Word of GOD is vague on this issue. The answer may in fact be there, but people have not yet uncovered its relevance to this particular dilemma.


What do you think of this text?


Romans 1:19-20
Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

[Blake]

I accept that truth on grounds of faith. I've never stated otherwise.

and there you go.

By no means does anyone have any right to ask someone to disprove that Adam and Eve was the true story written by Jews.

[Blake]

What do you think of this text?


Romans 1:19-20
Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

so are Jews without excuse for not believing in Jesus being the Son of God?

It's obviously clear according to the book of Romans.

[BacktoBasics]

seriously, we must be arguing with people who just want to make us argue for laughs :)We're arguing with people who turn anything into gods work.

Donut: Gods word
Paper: Gods word
Apple: Gods word

and so on. It reminds me of the old line "I told you so but what am I".

If you turn the burden of proof over to their side they have

1. No first hand accounts
2. No original text from the time that Jesus was alive
3. No physical evidence
4. Their own church questioning the authenticity of even the later writings

3 important things

at best they have writings that were pieced together and might and I say might be within 100 years of his death.

[DarkReign]

This thread has lost its luster, it was cooler some pages ago.

Look, athiests (myself included) need to get over how religious people view the world. Youre just going to have to accept that there are A LOT of people in this world who believe in imaginary men in the sky. Who through omnipotence, created every facet of every argument you could ever fathom to claim his nonexistence.

That there faith is so true and so real, we should teach alternatives to testable, provable science in public schools.

I aim this entire post at athiests because, honestly, these sorts of thread/topics are not perpetuated by the religious. They only respond to open criticism, as any self respecting human should.

Its fine, really. I mean, lets really take stock in what the debate is here.

In what way do the religious/athiest negatively affect my life? Right?

Athiests
Public schools and what their children are taught as fact or at least, arguable.
Political importance assigned to a belief you do not hold.
etc.

Religious
Lack of religious doctrine in juxtaposition to the scientific theories you hold as objectional.
Lack of morality in societal life (entertainment, interaction, appearance...basically a catch all)
etc

Ultimately ladies and gentlemen, this entire argument has the same equivalence to most people's response to something they dont like on televsion.

Change the fucking channel.

Dont get me wrong, some (I would hope most) in this thread are just doing some verbal/intellectual sparring for the pure sport of it. Thats your business, so disregard if this applies to you (usually, this is me).

But for those who actually consider this an important topic and worth the attempt to change minds and influence people need to wake the fuck up and change the channel.

First and foremost, if you have an opinion then that opinion will be given and repeated to your children. They will question their teachers on the important "taught in schools" issue and rightfully so. Now, if that debate between teacher/student causes controversy, thats a seperate issue entirely.

The lack of morality, which is an argument I rarely hear from the religious, its more just an opinion with no actionable method to address.

So really, what are you arguing about?

Change the fucking channel. Some people's favorite color is blue, you prefer red. Deal with the difference, even if his preference for blue seems to tread on your sight lines from time to time.

Ultimately, it doesnt matter who is right, or even close.

If there is a God, and my salvation depends solely upon believing the words of other humans....then it was a setup to begin with. No God, low or high, would expect one human to trust another about anything, especially something as important as His existence. We are skeptical by nature because humans lie every 6 sentences. Yet He would expect me to ignore that truth about something as profound as this?!

No....God may be many things to many people, but one trait I would not associate with the Creator of Everything is illogic. He would totally understand, sorry if that offends some of you, especially the charlatans.

[MiamiHeat]

Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. We found the highest percentage of belief among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality).

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm

[angel_luv]

Angel Luv said the ignorant are innocent.

Wrong!

The verse I quoted* states that creation itself stand as a testimony of God's goodness and His existence and that therefore there is no excuse for anyone who refuses to acknowledge the presence of God.

* Romans 1;19-20- Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse

[angel_luv]

so are Jews without excuse for not believing in Jesus being the Son of God?

It's obviously clear according to the book of Romans.

Messianic Jews acknowledge and claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

[Blake]

As a Christian I believe that the only way to the Lord is through Jesus Christ. He said so.


He didn't say when it had to happen, however.

either way, I guess Jews are sccrewed

[Blake]

Messianic Jews acknowledge and claim Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

what about Hill Country Fare Jews

[Phenomanul]

Ironic you calling me illogical when you took a sound mathematical equation and turned it into supernatural magic happy time.

Equation???

Really?

Unless you are talking about Kepler's law of planetary motion (with Newton's correction factors).

Or about stellar motion (as defined by the latest Hubble observations - before it broke down).

Those were hardly "equations" to anything... Your mathematical bar must be set rather low, if you consider your statements as mathematical expressions to anything.... No wonder you just 'brushed' off the statistical significance of Jesus having embodied 300+ (363?) Messianic prophecies. The odds are staggeringly full-proof. Only the mathematically illiterate would do what you did and consider it 'faith, gospel-talk'. The statistical significance of such a historical match to a prescribed list is mind-blowing.

Surely your arguments were based on more than just ill-researched lies posted somewhere on the net.

[Kermit]

Disbelief in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. We found the highest percentage of belief among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality).


The results were as follows (figures in %):

BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD 1914 1933 1998

Personal belief 27.7 15 7.0
Personal disbelief 52.7 68 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.9 17 20.8

BELIEF IN IMMORTALITY 1914 1933 1998

Personal belief 35.2 18 7.9
Personal disbelief 25.4 53 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 43.7 29 23.3

Note: The 1998 immortality figures add up to more than 100%. The misprint is in the original. The 76.7% is likely too high.

I've got to hand it to you. After seeing ES kick your ass up and down this thread, I thought that perhaps you might quit. But it's obvious that you're not a quitter and although you may have the intellect of Simple Jack, you have the fortitude, perseverance, and tenacity that all of us pray we never possess (meaning that when we're proven to be horribly wrong, we step away from the computer and hope that everyone forgets).

[RandomGuy]

So B2B and MH, how can you explain that 12 ignorant fishermen from Galilea invented a religion that is alive 2,000 years later and is followed by more than 1 billion people?

Also, in your explanation, tell us why right after Christ's death and all through the first 300 years of the existance of this new religion, people were willing to die for their beliefs?

And I don't mean going to war for the Christian cause, but willing to die gruesome deaths after days of turture, simply because they were niot willing to deny Christ.

I am still waiting on someone to explain Scientology(tm).

[101A]

either way, I guess Jews are sccrewed

I didn't say that.

God made a covenant specifically with the Jews. I don't believe Him to be an Indian Giver.

Great Post DR.

[Phenomanul]

and there you go.

By no means does anyone have any right to ask someone to disprove that Adam and Eve was the true story written by Jews.

Go ahead and ask...

I'm simply stating MH can't claim for certain that Egyptians pre-dated Adam and Eve by any amount of time. What reference point is he using? He can't have it both ways. As in:

Claim that they were made up.
And then proceed to say that A or B civilization pre-dated them by x-many years.

[101A]

I am still waiting on someone to explain Scientology(tm).

Let me give it a shot:

$ $ $ $

[Blake]

Wrong!

The verse I quoted* states that creation itself stand as a testimony of God's goodness and His existence and that therefore there is no excuse for anyone who refuses to acknowledge the presence of God.

* Romans 1;19-20- Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse

sigh.

I'll ask you again, for I think the third time.....

a simple yes or no answer would be really nice....

Is or isn't belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and announcing Him as Lord and Savior a necessary component of salvation?

[MiamiHeat]

.


It matters. A lot. It's time to put down the fairy tales and move on as a scientific community.

You KNOW the history. Roman Catholic church burned and destroyed all sorts of human history. People were murdered, mass scale, for this ridiculous belief system.

We still suffer from the problem. Look at Hamas and Israel. All over that land promised by God to 2 different peoples. Each thinks THEY are the chosen ones.

Look at all of the people who get brainwashed into becoming terrorists and crash into buildings because the afterlife has 72 virgins waiting for them.

Look at stem cell research and how this country hasn't been able to get into it because of a god. Look at abortion debates.

It's a real problem. We need to get over it already. People need to learn how to be GOOD BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTAND not because God says so or you go to hell.

[Kermit]

I am still waiting on someone to explain Scientology(tm).

You give the religion* money and you become happy, or some shit.

[RandomGuy]

My God this thread just keeps going and going.

That is an ironic choice of words. Good one. :tu

[101A]

sigh.

I'll ask you again, for I think the third time.....

a simple yes or no answer would be really nice....

Is or isn't belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and announcing Him as Lord and Savior a necessary component of salvation?


For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life - John 3:16

Sounds like a promise to many, not a condemnation to the rest.

[BacktoBasics]

Wrong!

The verse I quoted* states that creation itself stand as a testimony of God's goodness and His existence and that therefore there is no excuse for anyone who refuses to acknowledge the presence of God.

* Romans 1;19-20- Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse

This has been asked before but I'll ask again. What of the child that was raised in the wilderness by a pack of wolves?


Equation???

Really?

Unless you are talking about Kepler's law of planetary motion (with Newton's correction factors).

Or about stellar motion (as defined by the latest Hubble observations - before it broke down).

Those were hardly "equations" to anything... Your mathematical bar must be set rather low, if you consider your statements as mathematical expressions to anything.... No wonder you just 'brushed' off the statistical significance of Jesus having embodied 300+ (363?) Messianic prophecies. The odds are staggeringly full-proof. Only the mathematically illiterate would do what you did and consider it 'faith, gospel-talk'. The statistical significance of such a historical match to a prescribed list is mind-blowing.

Surely your arguments were based on more than just ill-researched lies posted somewhere on the net.My mathematical bar is low because there was no need for it to be higher. Simple addition, subtraction, division and mulitiplication can be used to map out significant dates and moments in the mans life. Had the math been complicated I might have dug deeper. It just wasn't.

WAIT: God made it simple...YES?

[RandomGuy]

You give the religion money and you become happy, or some shit.

Actually they exercise the ghosts of a long dead alien race that cling to your soul and cause you to be unhappy and other problems.

No, I am not making that s*** up.

[MiamiHeat]

Go ahead and ask...

I'm simply stating MH can't claim for certain that Egyptians pre-dated Adam and Eve by any amount of time. What reference point is he using? He can't have it both ways. As in:

Claim that they were made up.
And then proceed to say that A or B civilization pre-dated them by x-many years.

Actually, "Star Wars" is real. Sure, it was 'written' in the 20th century by George Lucas BUT! it was a real account. "A long time ago...in a galaxy far far away.."

It was real. It doesn't matter that recorded history says it was written in the 20th century.

How do you know that it wasn't ancient?

[Kermit]

Actually they exercise the ghosts of a long dead alien race that cling to your soul and cause you to be unhappy and other problems.

No, I am not making that s*** up.

Sounds like a tax haven for a certain science fiction writer.

[RandomGuy]

What I *don't* know about Scientology is what they believe happens to you after you die, or if you are a non-believer.

In 2000 years will people be having conversations about the historicity of Ron Hubbard?

I wonder.

[MiamiHeat]

I've got to hand it to you. After seeing ES.



Let's take a look at claims made by those who deny the facts :

Click on words for link.


Claim #1 - Isis was not a virgin

First, we have to understand how the ancient egyptians lived. They worshipped over 2,000 Gods. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/gods_gallery.shtml) They had different versions/accounts/stories for the same Gods in different areas around Egypt. They did not have -1- canonical religion like you are familiar with. When you read an account of Horus' birth, just remember you are reading one account. There are several different stories.

ALL of the Horus birth stories involve a miraculous birth.

1) In one account, Isis is impregnated by "a flash of lightning" (http://books.google.com/books?id=Mb3F7roWPvsC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=isis+impregnated+by+lightning&source=web&ots=05QAz5rf1p&sig=W101TskOoKHoK3ZqoYfuvRKU5Po)and in another account "begotten by a ray of light from heaven". (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/29660/Apis) She gives birth to Horus/Apis. Apis is an Egyptian Bull God that is another form of Osiris, they are associated as one and the same (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/29660/Apis). He is most famous for being worshipped by the Israelites as a "Golden Calf" after they leave Egypt and while Moses is on Mt. Sinai.

So. Isis gives birth to Apis (Osiris/Horus) "begotten by a ray of light from heaven". Virgin birth.

There are more accounts, however, but they all involve some sort of miraculous birth. The one I have given however, is a virgin birth.

There is even many accounts of Virgin Queens and Mothers, such as Mut-Em-Usa, the VIRGIN QUEEN OF EGYPT (http://englishatheist.org/indexd.shtml).

You have heard of the QUEEN OF SHEEBA. She was famous for her chastity aka VIRGINITY. She ruled Ethiopia, which would be part of Egypt, around 960 BC.

Virgin women of importance is nothing new to the Egyptians.


Claim #2 - Isis-Meri does not exist so it didn't influence "Mary"

Isis is one of the original Mother Goddess. She too, had many forms. She was worshipped for THOUSANDS of years and was only surpassed by the Virgin Mary.

Isis is not her ONLY name obviously, since the egyptians worshipped many forms of Isis, the Mother Goddess.
'Goddess of Many Names' / 'Queen of the Gods' (http://www.ancientnile.co.uk/gods.php)

She is also known as Aset, Ast, Est, Meri-En-Sakar, and many others.

One of Isis' forms was the Goddess of Nature and Harvest - MERI-EN-SAKAR. (http://books.google.com/books?id=hlFtAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA334&lpg=PA334&dq=egyptian+god+meri&source=web&ots=b1eQammvH7&sig=KFWlUdbhLfUNFSTsFykZhXo8djY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA334,M1) They are all forms of ISIS, the Mother.

Isis ultimately absorbed and represented hundreds of different goddesses, all forms of the Mother, ISIS. Her worship survived until around the 6th century CE.


Claim #3 - The 'Mother of God' Mary in Christianity did not copy/borrow/steal from Isis the Mother of God

To quote from this source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/virginmary_1.shtml):

"When Christianity was spreading across the Empire, it's clear that it deliberately took images from the pagan world in which it lived and into which it spread and used those images. Old holy wells and shrines were turned into Christian shrines. In Egypt a shrine of Isis was deliberately and self-consciously re-created as a shrine of Mary."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MaryAndHorus.JPG

The connections are so similar, sometimes scholars can't even tell if they are looking at Mary or Isis.



Claim #4 - December 25 was not celebrated by Ancient Egyptians as the birth of Horus/Osiris

This is an Ancient Egyptian Calendar (http://showcase.netins.net/web/ankh/calendar1.html)

"Birth of Heru (Horus) the child of Aset (Isis) ; Going forth of Wadjet singing in Heliopolis;Day of Elevating the Great Netjert (Goddess) in all Her names & manifestations"


Jesus' birth day is NEVER mentioned in the Bible, however it too is celebrated on Dec. 25th once again, to coincide with this ancient worship of the Sun. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Horus, Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.


Claim #5 - Horus' birth is not heralded by a Star in the East as Jesus was

The Star in the East is known as Sirius. Sirius is the brightest star in the sky, almost twice as bright as the next brightest star. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sirius) Sirius was an important star for the ancient egyptians. They based their calendar around Siirus. (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/dailylife/calendar.html) They called it "the going up of the goddess Sothis". Sothis/Sirius has always been identified with Isis (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sothis.htm).

Ok. So, the Star in The East/Isis heralds the birth of the Sun/Son of God Horus.


Claim #6 - Isis/Horus/Osiris are not the original "holy trinity"

Isis is the Mother of God, the Great Mother Goddess.
Horus is the Son of Osiris/ Son of God
Osiris is the Father, "Judge of the Dead in the Afterlife" (http://history.howstuffworks.com/ancient-egypt/osiris.htm)

Yeah. Apparently, Osiris was judging the dead well before Jehovah.

They are the original Holy Trinity.

Osiris' worship was still widespread until around 388 CE (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14577d.htm), when Theodosius (the last roman emperor) declared Nicene Christianity the official state religion and began punishing all other religious practices.


OOps. guess Extra Stout's ass is 'kicked up and down this thread'

[angel_luv]

sigh.

I'll ask you again, for I think the third time.....

a simple yes or no answer would be really nice....

Is or isn't belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and announcing Him as Lord and Savior a necessary component of salvation?

I'm sorry for anyway in which I was unclear.

Yes, you must.

Romans 10:8-10
But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

[101A]

It matters. A lot. It's time to put down the fairy tales and move on as a scientific community.



??????

The vast majority of Scientific advances throughout history have come from Believers.

I promise you I will go to bed with one tonight who is doing a HELL of a lot more to advance science (one of the authors of this (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v423/n6937/pubmed/nature01577.html) - yes that is NATURE!) than your forum inhabiting self.

[RandomGuy]

Sounds like a tax haven for a certain science fiction writer.

Except for the fact that he is dead. Unless you are a Scientologist, then they just think he is hiding or something, but for the rest of us, we know where he is buried.

[BacktoBasics]

I am still waiting on someone to explain Scientology(tm).This is beyond me. It just goes to show you how easy it is to create a religion. Hell these thumpers on here scream about how its impossible to create a myth in such a short period of time.

Look no further. It has quite a following.

[MiamiHeat]

What I *don't* know about Scientology is what they believe happens to you after you die, or if you are a non-believer.

In 2000 years will people be having conversations about the historicity of Ron Hubbard?

I wonder.

Tom Cruise 2,000 years from now :

Listen, scientology is the one true religion. It says so right here in our sacred text.

PROVE. ME. WRONG.

[Kermit]

Let's take a look at claims made by those who deny the facts :

Click on words for link.


Claim #1 - Isis was not a virgin

First, we have to understand how the ancient egyptians lived. They worshipped over 2,000 Gods. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/gods_gallery.shtml) They had different versions/accounts/stories for the same Gods in different areas around Egypt. They did not have -1- canonical religion like you are familiar with. When you read an account of Horus' birth, just remember you are reading one account. There are several different stories.

ALL of the Horus birth stories involve a miraculous birth.

1) In one account, Isis is impregnated by "a flash of lightning" (http://books.google.com/books?id=Mb3F7roWPvsC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=isis+impregnated+by+lightning&source=web&ots=05QAz5rf1p&sig=W101TskOoKHoK3ZqoYfuvRKU5Po)and in another account "begotten by a ray of light from heaven". (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/29660/Apis) She gives birth to Horus/Apis. Apis is an Egyptian Bull God that is another form of Osiris, they are associated as one and the same (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/29660/Apis). He is most famous for being worshipped by the Israelites as a "Golden Calf" after they leave Egypt and while Moses is on Mt. Sinai.

So. Isis gives birth to Apis (Osiris/Horus) "begotten by a ray of light from heaven". Virgin birth.

There are more accounts, however, but they all involve some sort of miraculous birth. The one I have given however, is a virgin birth.

There is even many accounts of Virgin Queens and Mothers, such as Mut-Em-Usa, the VIRGIN QUEEN OF EGYPT (http://englishatheist.org/indexd.shtml).

You have heard of the QUEEN OF SHEEBA. She was famous for her chastity aka VIRGINITY. She ruled Ethiopia, which would be part of Egypt, around 960 BC.

Virgin women of importance is nothing new to the Egyptians.


Claim #2 - Isis-Meri does not exist so it didn't influence "Mary"

Isis is one of the original Mother Goddess. She too, had many forms. She was worshipped for THOUSANDS of years and was only surpassed by the Virgin Mary.

Isis is not her ONLY name obviously, since the egyptians worshipped many forms of Isis, the Mother Goddess.
'Goddess of Many Names' / 'Queen of the Gods' (http://www.ancientnile.co.uk/gods.php)

She is also known as Aset, Ast, Est, Meri-En-Sakar, and many others.

One of Isis' forms was the Goddess of Nature and Harvest - MERI-EN-SAKAR. (http://books.google.com/books?id=hlFtAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA334&lpg=PA334&dq=egyptian+god+meri&source=web&ots=b1eQammvH7&sig=KFWlUdbhLfUNFSTsFykZhXo8djY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA334,M1) They are all forms of ISIS, the Mother.

Isis ultimately absorbed and represented hundreds of different goddesses, all forms of the Mother, ISIS. Her worship survived until around the 6th century CE.


Claim #3 - The 'Mother of God' Mary in Christianity did not copy/borrow/steal from Isis the Mother of God

To quote from this source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/virginmary_1.shtml):

"When Christianity was spreading across the Empire, it's clear that it deliberately took images from the pagan world in which it lived and into which it spread and used those images. Old holy wells and shrines were turned into Christian shrines. In Egypt a shrine of Isis was deliberately and self-consciously re-created as a shrine of Mary."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MaryAndHorus.JPG

The connections are so similar, sometimes scholars can't even tell if they are looking at Mary or Isis.



Claim #4 - December 25 was not celebrated by Ancient Egyptians as the birth of Horus/Osiris

This is an Ancient Egyptian Calendar (http://showcase.netins.net/web/ankh/calendar1.html)

"Birth of Heru (Horus) the child of Aset (Isis) ; Going forth of Wadjet singing in Heliopolis;Day of Elevating the Great Netjert (Goddess) in all Her names & manifestations"


Jesus' birth day is NEVER mentioned in the Bible, however it too is celebrated on Dec. 25th once again, to coincide with this ancient worship of the Sun. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Horus, Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.


Claim #5 - Horus' birth is not heralded by a Star in the East as Jesus was

The Star in the East is known as Sirius. Sirius is the brightest star in the sky, almost twice as bright as the next brightest star. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sirius) Sirius was an important star for the ancient egyptians. They based their calendar around Siirus. (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/dailylife/calendar.html) They called it "the going up of the goddess Sothis". Sothis/Sirius has always been identified with Isis (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sothis.htm).

Ok. So, the Star in The East/Isis heralds the birth of the Sun/Son of God Horus.


Claim #6 - Isis/Horus/Osiris are not the original "holy trinity"

Isis is the Mother of God, the Great Mother Goddess.
Horus is the Son of Osiris/ Son of God
Osiris is the Father, "Judge of the Dead in the Afterlife" (http://history.howstuffworks.com/ancient-egypt/osiris.htm)

Yeah. Apparently, Osiris was judging the dead well before Jehovah.

They are the original Holy Trinity.

Osiris' worship was still widespread until around 388 CE (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14577d.htm), when Theodosius (the last roman emperor) declared Nicene Christianity the official state religion and began punishing all other religious practices.


OOps. guess Extra Stout's ass is 'kicked up and down this thread'


Here you go. I know Wikipedia as well. Great site.

Milton Teagle Simmons (born July 12, 1948),[1] known professionally as Richard Simmons, is an American fitness personality who promotes weight-loss programs, most famously through a line of aerobics videos and television programs.

Contents [hide]
1 Early life
2 Fitness career
2.1 Media appearances
2.2 Fitness work in recent years
2.3 Fitness plans and marketing
3 Personal life
3.1 Personality
3.2 Hurricane Katrina response
4 Popular culture
5 Print and media
5.1 Books
5.2 Audio
5.2.1 Audio cassette
5.2.2 Compact discs
5.2.3 Vinyl record
5.3 Visual media
5.3.1 DVDs
5.4 Video cassette
6 References
7 Notes
8 External links



Early life
Richard Simmons was born in New Orleans, Louisiana.[1] Simmons was raised in the French Quarter of New Orleans, Louisiana, and attended Cor Jesu High School (now Brother Martin High School[1]). He suffered from obesity throughout his adolescence and by the time he graduated from high school, he weighed 268 pounds.

His first job, in New Orleans, was selling pralines. Simmons also briefly considered becoming a priest.[2] After starting college at the University of Southwestern Louisiana, he transferred to Florida State University. While enrolled there, he studied as an exchange student in Florence, Italy. He graduated with a BA in Art. After graduation, Simmons moved to New York City where he worked in advertising, as a waiter, and for cosmetics companies Revlon and Coty Cosmetics.


Fitness career
Upon moving to Los Angeles in the 1970s, Simmons worked as the Maître d' at a restaurant in Beverly Hills. He developed an interest in fitness, but was dissatisfied with the unhealthy fad diet methods[clarification needed] and established gyms and exercise studios of the day which favored the already fit customer. It was his interest in fitness that helped him lose 123 lb (56 kg).

Simmons later opened his own exercise studio, originally called The Anatomy Asylum, where emphasis was placed on healthy eating in proper portions and enjoyable exercise. The business originally included a salad bar restaurant called "Ruffage," (the name a pun on the word Roughage), though it was eventually removed as the focus of the Asylum shifted solely to exercise[citation needed]. Now called Slimmons, the establishment continues operations in Beverly Hills, and Simmons teaches motivational classes and aerobics throughout the week[citation needed].


Media appearances
With his health club a success, Simmons began to draw media attention, beginning with an appearance on the television show Real People where he was shown at work. He introduced customers whom he had helped to lose weight. He later made guest appearances on the celebrity game shows Win, Lose or Draw and Nickelodeon's Figure It Out.

Positive viewer reaction landed Simmons a recurring role as himself on the American soap opera General Hospital [3], over a four-year period.[4] This in turn led to further media notoriety, as well as personal appearances in shopping malls, where he taught exercise classes. In the early 1980s, Simmons hosted two shows; Slim Cookin, and an Emmy Award winning talk show, The Richard Simmons Show, in which he focused on personal health, fitness, exercise, and healthy cooking.

Simmons has appeared as himself on numerous TV shows, including Whose Line Is It Anyway?, CHiPs, Saturday Night Live, and on an episode of Arrested Development, "Bringing Up Buster". In 1999, he hosted a short lived TV show called DreamMaker. Eight years later he filmed a pledge drive special for PBS, called Love Yourself And Win,.

Simmons has been featured in TV advertisements for Sprint, Yoplait, Herbal Essence Shampoos, and toward the end of 2007, he appeared in a "This is SportsCenter" commercial on ESPN as the show's "conditioning coach." In Canada, Simmons appeared in an advertisement for Simmons' mattresses. The mattress company hired the exercise celebrity because of the similarity in name, and for his appeal to the company's target audience of women over 35[citation needed]. Beyond this, there is no further business partnership between the two.

Richard Simmons currently hosts a radio show on Sirius Stars, Sirius Satellite Radio channel 102, called Lighten Up with Richard Simmons.


Fitness work in recent years
Simmons has begun a campaign to get physical education incorporated into the No Child Left Behind Act[citation needed]. He met with U.S. Representative George Miller, the chairman of the House education committee, in the hope of winning support for a plan to have elementary schools provide 150 minutes of PE each week. In November 16, 2006, Simmons appeared on the Today Show to announce his "Ask America" crusade to get PE incorporated in public schools as a required course. Simmons asked viewers complete surveys, which he would use to petition policy makers in Washington DC[citation needed].


Fitness plans and marketing
Marketing fitness plans has also brought notoriety to Simmons' message of healthy living. Live It, his first marketed weight loss plan was explained in his first book Never Say Diet. He has since written several more books and produced weight loss plans including the Deal A Meal and FoodMover plans, both of which were advertised in infomercial campaigns. On Carnival Cruise Lines, he hosts the Cruise to Lose program.

A fitness training program was developed to teach The Simmons Method to fitness instructors. Training is provided at Hoot Camp, which is held in Beverly Hills, and is approved by the Aerobics and Fitness Association of America (AFAA). The program allows AFAA-certified instructors to earn continuing education[clarification needed]. Hoot Camp has also been held in Saint Joseph, Missouri. Simmons also travels the United States teaching his program, and he has been known to spend time on the phone with students of his programs[citation needed].

In 2006, Simmons collaborated with Salton to produce a food steamer called "Steam Heat".


Personal life

Personality
Simmons is notable for his high-energy, motivational demeanor, an attribute he often uses to help encourage people to lose weight. His trademark attire is candy-striped Dolfin shorts and tank tops decorated with Swarovski crystals. Simmons is also known for his flamboyancy.

Simmons has always been known for his "personal touch," interacting at a personal level with the people using his products. This began when he started personally answering fan mail he received while a cast member of General Hospital. As a self-described devout Catholic, Simmons still personally answers emails and letters, and makes hundreds of phone calls each week to those who seek his help. [5] He also talks to people on the air during his radio show, and holds weekly live chats in the "clubhouse" area of his website. His appearances also include a "meet and greet" time, so that people can speak to him one on one.

Simmons claims to have few friends saying, "I don't have a lot to offer one person. I have a lot to offer to a lot of people." Aside from his three Dalmatians and two maids, Simmons lives alone in the Hollywood Hills. [6]


Hurricane Katrina response
In September 2005 Simmons appeared on Entertainment Tonight to discuss the effects of Hurricane Katrina on his family in his hometown of New Orleans and his involvement in aiding those affected by the hurricane. On August 29, 2006 Simmons appeared on Your World with Neil Cavuto while making a return visit to New Orleans one year after the flooding, a visit he repeated on March 2, 2007, now talking about his recent trip to Washington D.C. to promote and raise awareness about The Strengthening Physical Education Act of 2007 (bill HR 1224).


Popular culture
Simmons has become well known throughout North American culture, to the point that he has been referenced in many culture-based shows, be they animation, live-action or talk shows:

A deleted scene in The Simpsons' episode "Burns' Heir" featured a robotic Richard Simmons used by Montgomery Burns as security. Simmons was planned to voice the character, but refused to portray a robotic version of himself, so Dan Castellaneta took the role instead. The scene was cut when it did not get a response from test audiences. The scene was instead shown in the later episode "The Simpsons 138th Episode Spectacular."
In Family Guy episode "Death Is a Bitch", a drunken Peter Griffin proves his immortality by taunting scary looking bikers with the questions "Hey, aren't you Richard Simmons?" and "Aren't you Richard Simmons' best friend, Richard Simmons?".
Simmons was a frequent guest on The Howard Stern Show in the 1990s. He refused to appear after Stern insulted him one too many times. Simmons finally reappeared on Stern's show on November 16, 2006.[7]
Simmons was also a frequent guest on Late Night with David Letterman (NBC) and The Late Show with David Letterman (CBS).[8] On November 22, 2000, they had a falling out after an incident that occurred on that night's show. Simmons (while dressed as a turkey) was sprayed in the face by Letterman with a fire extinguisher after Simmons grabbed Letterman as if to hug or kiss him, causing Simmons to have a severe asthma attack.[9] Simmons did not appear on the Letterman show for six years, finally returning on November 29, 2006. During that appearance, Letterman once again set Simmons up for a prank. While Richard Simmons was demonstrating a steamer branded with his name, Letterman insisted on placing a tray under the steamer which Simmons did not believe belonged there. When Simmons turned the steamer on, something in the tray exploded and started burning. Though initially scared, Simmons took the incident in fairly good nature, even joking that he "felt like Michael Jackson" (referring to a mishap where Jackson's hair was set on fire by a malfunctioning light.)[10]
An animated version of Simmons appeared in a Johnny Bravo episode as a man who used to bully Johnny when they were kids.[11]
In an episode of Rocko's Modern Life Rocko and Heffer went to a gym where a workout assistant resembled Richard Simmons. In fact, Richard Simmons voiced this character, evident in the credits. And that character returned in a TV commercial in the show in a commercial that said, "Sweatin in your undies." This second appearance did not feature a voice with the character.
In the episode Waking Nightmare of The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, a Richard Simmons is sent to wake up Mandy.
In Legally Blonde: the Musical, the character of Elle Woods has a line referring to Simmons, saying "I'm not exactly trailer trash here, Richard Simmons is our neighbor!"
He is shot to death in the short Bring Me the Head of Charlie Brown.
Simmons (or an impersonator, it is unclear which) appears on the Bob Rivers album More Twisted Christmas on two songs: "It's the Most Fattening Time of the Year" and on the "Buttcracker Suite."
Simmons has been a guest on the US version of Whose Line is it Anyway?. He has also been impersonated on the show. One notable impersonation was during a game of Weird Newscasters, when Wayne Brady was to do the sports news in the style of Simmons.
Simmons has appeared multiple times on The Glenn Beck Program on CNN Headline News.
An episode of the anime Hoshi no Kirby features an exercise instructor Demon Beast that resembles Richard Simmons.

Print and media

Books
Never Say Diet ISBN 0-517-40284-X
Never Say Diet Cookbook
The Better Body Book
Reach for Fitness: A Special Book of Exercises for the Physically Challenged Warner Books 1986 ISBN 0-446-51302-4
Deal-A-Meal Cookbook
Richard Simmons' Never Give Up: Inspirations, Reflections, Stories of Hope Warner Books, 1984 ISBN 0-446-60085-7
Farewell to Fat Atlantic Books 2002 ISBN 1-57719-102-1
Sweetie Pie
Still Hungry After All These Years: My Story Gt Pub Corp 1999 ISBN 1-57719-356-3
The FoodMover Cookbook
Cookin' on Broadway
Steam Away the Pounds

Audio

Audio cassette
Project Me (six tape set)
Sweatin' and Sharin'
Colors of Your Life (single tape)
Colors of Your Life (six tape set)
Take a Walk
Take a Hike
Take a Classical Walk
Walk Across America
Walkin' on Broadway
Walk Around the World
Never Give Up (book on tape, read by Simmons)

Compact discs
Richard Picks the Hits, Volume 1
Richard Picks the Hits, Volume 2
Country Cardio
Oh Happy Day
Fitness Fiesta
Wicked Workout
Big Screen Burn
Shimmy Into Shape
In the Mood to Lose
Classical Chillout

Vinyl record
Reach (Elektra Records, 1983)

Visual media

DVDs
Richard Simmons and the Silver Foxes
Disco Sweat
60's Blast Off
80's Blast Off
SuperSweatin': Party Off the Pounds
SuperTonin': Totally Tonin
SuperTonin': Totally Tonin' with Toning Rings
Sit Tight
Sweatin'to the Oldies
Sweatin' to the Oldies 2
Sweatin' to the Oldies 3
Sweatin' to the Oldies 4
Love Yourself and Win

Video cassette
Everyday with Richard Simmons
The Stomach Formula
Get Started
Reach for Fitness
Richard Simmons and the Silver Foxes
Sweatin' to the Oldies
Sweatin' to the Oldies 2
Sweatin' to the Oldies 3
Sweat and Shout (also sold as Sweatin to the Oldies 4)
Day By Day (Volumes 1-12)
Pump and Sweat
Step and Sweat
Tone and Sweat
Disco Sweat
Stretchin' to the Classics
Dance Your Pants Off!
Tonin' Uptown
Tonin' Downtown
Groovin' In The House
The Ab Formula
No Ifs Ands or Butts
Love to Stretch
Blast Off
Broadway Sweat
Tone Up On Broadway
Broadway Blast Off
Platinum Sweat
Sit Tight
Latin Blast Off (also marketed as Sudar Mucho)
Mega Mix Blast Off
Mega Mix 2 Blast Off
Disco Blast Off
60's Blast Off
80's Blast Off
Blast and Tone

References
Richard Simmons 2006 Interview on Sidewalks Entertainment
Richard Simmons discusses his physical education campaign with education blogger Kevin Carey
Richard Simmons audio interview on physical education at Education Week
Interview with Richard Simmons
Richard Simmons Pushes to Get Kids Active in School interview with USA Today.
Fitness Guru Takes Message to Congress on NPR.

Notes
^ a b c d "Richard Simmons". IMDb. Retrieved on 2008-03-07.
^ Chandler, Rick (January 19, 2007). "Church of Richard Simmons: Fitness advocate leads workout at Stateline". Tahoe Daily Tribune. Retrieved on 2007-02-09.
^ http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0799873/
^ http://www.richardsimmons.com/j/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=80
^ Pang, Kevin (2008-06-04). ""The many secrets of Richard Simmons"". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved on 2008-06-04.
^ Pang, Kevin (2008-06-04). ""The many secrets of Richard Simmons"". Chicago Tribune. Retrieved on 2008-06-04.
^ McShane, Larry (2007-02-07). "Stars cross paths at Sirius studios", North Jersey Media Group. Retrieved on 10 February 2007.
^ Richard Simmons (I)
^ McIntee, Michael Z. (December 26, 2006). "Show #2661". CBS Late Show with David Letterman. Retrieved on 2007-02-09.
^ Richard Simmons Steamer: richard simmons exploding steamer hilarious david letterman clip
^ Johnny Bravo: Get Shovelized! / T Is For Trouble - TV.com

External links
The official Richard Simmons website
Richard Simmons is a Diet and Fitness Coach at AOL Coaches
Richard Simmons at the Internet Movie Database
Richard Simmons at NNDB
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Simmons"
Categories: 1948 births | Living people | Aerobic exercise | American exercise instructors | American health and wellness writers | American motivational writers | American radio personalities | American television personalities | Florida State University alumni | University of Louisiana at Lafayette alumni | People from New Orleans, Louisiana | Restaurateurs
Hidden categories: Semi-protected | Wikipedia articles needing clarification | All articles with unsourced statements | Articles with unsourced statements since September 2008 | Articles with unsourced statements since November 2008

[Blake]

Go ahead and ask...

I'm simply stating MH can't claim for certain that Egyptians pre-dated Adam and Eve by any amount of time. What reference point is he using?

Hell, even if you see something with your own eyes, you can't claim anything for 100% certain.

He's referring to works that suggest that the stories written about Jesus supernatural works are stories and ideas that have already circulated beforehand in other writings from other cultures.

I've seen some pretty good rebuttal posts by I Love Me Some Me in regards to some of the Egyptian stuff that MH has posted, but at the end of the day, nobody has proven anything one way or the other.

It's the ol' "prove Jesus exists" line followed by the "oh yeah? well prove he doesn't" arguments that have been blown up to full scale round and round page after page.

Nobody has anything but faith based on some old writings that have been picked through and sorted out by men, some of who had financial agendas. End of story.

[JoeChalupa]

This thread has lost its luster, it was cooler some pages ago.

Look, athiests (myself included) need to get over how religious people view the world. Youre just going to have to accept that there are A LOT of people in this world who believe in imaginary men in the sky. Who through omnipotence, created every facet of every argument you could ever fathom to claim his nonexistence.

That there faith is so true and so real, we should teach alternatives to testable, provable science in public schools.

I aim this entire post at athiests because, honestly, these sorts of thread/topics are not perpetuated by the religious. They only respond to open criticism, as any self respecting human should.

Its fine, really. I mean, lets really take stock in what the debate is here.

In what way do the religious/athiest negatively affect my life? Right?

Athiests
Public schools and what their children are taught as fact or at least, arguable.
Political importance assigned to a belief you do not hold.
etc.

Religious
Lack of religious doctrine in juxtaposition to the scientific theories you hold as objectional.
Lack of morality in societal life (entertainment, interaction, appearance...basically a catch all)
etc

Ultimately ladies and gentlemen, this entire argument has the same equivalence to most people's response to something they dont like on televsion.

Change the fucking channel.

Dont get me wrong, some (I would hope most) in this thread are just doing some verbal/intellectual sparring for the pure sport of it. Thats your business, so disregard if this applies to you (usually, this is me).

But for those who actually consider this an important topic and worth the attempt to change minds and influence people need to wake the fuck up and change the channel.

First and foremost, if you have an opinion then that opinion will be given and repeated to your children. They will question their teachers on the important "taught in schools" issue and rightfully so. Now, if that debate between teacher/student causes controversy, thats a seperate issue entirely.

The lack of morality, which is an argument I rarely hear from the religious, its more just an opinion with no actionable method to address.

So really, what are you arguing about?

Change the fucking channel. Some people's favorite color is blue, you prefer red. Deal with the difference, even if his preference for blue seems to tread on your sight lines from time to time.

Ultimately, it doesnt matter who is right, or even close.

If there is a God, and my salvation depends solely upon believing the words of other humans....then it was a setup to begin with. No God, low or high, would expect one human to trust another about anything, especially something as important as His existence. We are skeptical by nature because humans lie every 6 sentences. Yet He would expect me to ignore that truth about something as profound as this?!

No....God may be many things to many people, but one trait I would not associate with the Creator of Everything is illogic. He would totally understand, sorry if that offends some of you, especially the charlatans.

Well done. I don't want religion in the public school system. That is for private schools. I don't push my religion on anyone but as you stated I will defend it when pushed. I've had more than my share of attacks on Catholicism and I just shrug it off and go on because it never effects my personal faith at all. If you choose not to believe and think it is all imaginary and fake then so be it. Move on!!!!

[MiamiHeat]

I promise you I will go to bed with one tonight who is doing a HELL of a lot more to advance science (one of the authors of this (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v423/n6937/pubmed/nature01577.html) - yes that is NATURE!) than your forum inhabiting self.

she's one of the 'very few' scientists who believe in god. so your whole family is nuts, i get it.

[Winehole23]

etc

Ultimately ladies and gentlemen, this entire argument has the same equivalence to most people's response to something they dont like on televsion.

Change the fucking channel.

But for those who actually consider this an important topic and worth the attempt to change minds and influence people need to wake the fuck up and change the channel.Sagely sooth, DR.



solely upon believing the words of other humans[/b]....then it was a setup to begin with. No God, low or high, would expect one human to trust another about anything, especially something as important as His existence. We are skeptical by nature because humans lie every 6 sentences. Yet He would expect me to ignore that truth about something as profound as this?!Kierkegaard addresses this (http://www.uri.edu/personal/szunjic/philos/conclud.htm).( See "Fork", about 80% down; see also the cartoon at the bottom) It's a volitional leap in the dark, from the hard ground of absurdity. It's not for everyone, to be sure.

If not, change the fucking channel.

[101A]

What I *don't* know about Scientology is what they believe happens to you after you die, or if you are a non-believer.

In 2000 years will people be having conversations about the historicity of Ron Hubbard?

I wonder.

No, some dude will have an old copy of Dianetics on Antiques Roadshow.

[MiamiHeat]

Here you go. I know Wikipedia as well. Great site.


I typed all of that with my own hand and I looked for the sources myself.

stop trolling

[MiamiHeat]

This is beyond me. It just goes to show you how easy it is to create a religion. Hell these thumpers on here scream about how its impossible to create a myth in such a short period of time.

Look no further. It has quite a following.

very good point

[101A]

she's one of the 'very few' scientists who believe in god. so your whole family is nuts, i get it.

Not sure how your poll was conducted; if ALL scientists were polled, it undoubtedly included SCORES of Asians - who as a people are the MOST likely to not believe in God - over a third of the professors in her department attend church; it stands to reason still others are believers (Chemistry/Biochemistry Dept.) - And, no, it's not a private school - it's a state university.

[DarkReign]

??????

The vast majority of Scientific advances throughout history have come from Believers.

Incredibly true. If the Church hadnt sanctioned scientific study, we'd be 600-700 years behind what we are.

They didnt always like the conclusions (ok, they rarely like Astronomy, if ever), but regardless, it happened on their watch.

You want to blame someone or something for man's lack of advancement through the Dark Ages/Middle Ages, blame Rome.

When I criticize the Church, its usually for its atrocities committed in the name of God, not whether the stories are actually true (even though I dont believe them for even half a second).

Because that is a matter of faith, something I hold none of.

[Kermit]

Except for the fact that he is dead. Unless you are a Scientologist, then they just think he is hiding or something, but for the rest of us, we know where he is buried.

From his wiki page...


He was attended by "Commodore's Messengers," teenage girls dressed in white hot pants who waited on him hand and foot, fixing his shower and dressing him and even catching the ash from his cigarettes.[8]

Sounds pretty sweet. I needs to start me own religion.

[MiamiHeat]

Not sure how your poll was conducted; if ALL scientists were polled, it undoubtedly included SCORES of Asians - who as a people are the MOST likely to not believe in God - over a third of the professors in her department attend church; it stands to reason still others are believers (Chemistry/Biochemistry Dept.) - And, no, it's not a private school - it's a state university.

click on the link if you want to know how it was conducted, nutso

[Blake]

Sounds like a promise to many, not a condemnation to the rest.

no, it sounds like condemnation to the kid raised by wolves.

Kid: "but God, I never heard of Jesus"

God: "ohhhhhh........too bad. I put all the signs of him in nature.....you have no excuse so too bad........hell for you.......NEXT!

Charles Manson: "hey God, remember I said I believed in Jesus at the last second and I reallu meant it!

God: "Great job, Charlie! Cmon in!........Let's see here........I've assigned you a mansion next to Angel Luv........you'll love her.......Have a great stay!"

[MiamiHeat]

Incredibly true. If the Church hadnt sanctioned scientific study, we'd be 600-700 years behind what we are.

LAUGH OUT LOUD.

WE ARE ALREADY BEHIND because of the Church. amazing ...

They persecuted even galileo, science was always seen as the enemy of the church because it DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE.

we have people even TODAY in 2009 who want to teach the fairy tales in SCHOOL over scientific theories.

[Phenomanul]

Actually, "Star Wars" is real. Sure, it was 'written' in the 20th century by George Lucas BUT! it was a real account. "A long time ago...in a galaxy far far away.."

It was real. It doesn't matter that recorded history says it was written in the 20th century.

How do you know that it wasn't ancient?

Really!!!

:rolleyes
Another disingenuously insipid argument by MH...

[angel_luv]

This has been asked before but I'll ask again. What of the child that was raised in the wilderness by a pack of wolves?



I have answered you, you just don't want to receive it.

For that child raised in the wilderness by wolves... the fact that he has opposable thumbs and the wolves do not, the grains of sand too numerous to count, the night sky filled with stars, the fact that the wolves raised him insead of eating him :) all serves as visual testimony of the goodness of God and the Lordship of Jesus.

[101A]

click on the link if you want to know how it was conducted, nutso



Intellectually-dishonest debate tactics (http://www.johntreed.com/debate.html) are typically employed by dishonest politicians, lawyers of guilty parties, dishonest salespeople, cads, cults, and others who are attempting to perpetrate a fraud. My real estate opponents, in general, are either charlatans or con men. As such, they have no choice but to employ intellectually-dishonest tactics both to prove that I am wrong and to persuade you to buy their products and services. My coaching opponents are generally not charlatans or con men, but many are quite political.
Here is a list of the intellectually-dishonest debate tactics I have identified thus far. I would appreciate any help from readers to expand the list or to better define each tactic. I am numbering the list in order to refer back to it quickly elsewhere at this Web site.

Name calling: debater tries to diminish the argument of his opponent by calling the opponent a name that is subjective and unattractive; for example, cult members and bad real estate gurus typically warn the targets of their frauds that “dream stealers” will try to tell them the cult or guru is giving them bad advice; name calling is only intellectually dishonest when the name in question is ill defined or is so subjective that it tells the listener more about the speaker than the person being spoken about; there is nothing wrong with using a name that is relevant and objectively defined; the most common example of name calling against me is “negative;” in coaching, the critics of coaches are often college professors and the word “professor” is used as a name-calling tactic by the coaches who are the targets of the criticism in question; as a coach, I have been criticized as being “too intense,” a common put-down of successful youth and high school coaches. People who criticize their former employer are dishonestly dismissed as “disgruntled” or “bitter.” These are all efforts to distract the audience by changing the subject because the speaker cannot refute the facts or logic of the opponent.
...

[MiamiHeat]

so you click on the link yet?

[MiamiHeat]

I have answered you, you just don't want to receive it.

For that child raised in the wilderness by wolves... the fact that he has opposable thumbs and the wolves do not, the grains of sand too numerous to count, the night sky filled with stars, the fact that the wolves raised him insead of eating him :) all serves as visual testimony of the goodness of God and the Lordship of Jesus.

damn you are fucking crazy.

[Blake]

I have answered you, you just don't want to receive it.

For that child raised in the wilderness by wolves... the fact that he has opposable thumbs and the wolves do not, the grains of sand too numerous to count, the night sky filled with stars, the fact that the wolves raised him insead of eating him :) all serves as visual testimony of the goodness of God and the Lordship of Jesus.

Funny, when I look at the stars in the sky, I don't see information saying that Jesus died on a cross for my sins.

[MiamiHeat]

All Hail the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[101A]

... the fact that the wolves raised him insead of eating him :)...


:lmao

[101A]

so you click on the link yet?

Post it again, I don't feel like scrolling. I promise I'll click.

[angel_luv]

Funny, when I look at the stars in the sky, I don't see information saying that Jesus died on a cross for my sins.

I hope it one day leads you to pray because Jesus promises that anyone who seeks Him will find Him.

[MiamiHeat]

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm

less than 10% of leading scientists believe in god... and that was from 1998. it's probably even lower by now.

[Kermit]

I hope it one day leads you to pray because Jesus promises that anyone who seeks Him will find Him.

I've been hoping to find that dude on a piece of toast so I can make some bank. Can you hear me praying Jesus? Shit, I'll even take you on a tortilla.

[angel_luv]

For your consideration:

Acts 17:24-27-

"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. "

[MiamiHeat]

I hope it one day leads you to pray because Jesus promises that anyone who seeks Him will find Him.

BLASPHEMY.

You need to renounce your pagan false god and beg for forgiveness from The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

I pray that he will help you find Him.

LOL just kidding.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is OK with you not believing in him. He doesn't really mind that you believe in a false god. Really, he's not that conceited. Just be a good person and he's OK with it.

[MiamiHeat]

Here you go. I know Wikipedia as well. Great site.


I typed all of that with my own hand and I looked for the sources myself.

stop trolling

[BacktoBasics]

I have answered you, you just don't want to receive it.

For that child raised in the wilderness by wolves... the fact that he has opposable thumbs and the wolves do not, the grains of sand too numerous to count, the night sky filled with stars, the fact that the wolves raised him insead of eating him :) all serves as visual testimony of the goodness of God and the Lordship of Jesus.
So he gets into heaven? Even without knowing or worshipping?

[DarkReign]

LAUGH OUT LOUD.

WE ARE ALREADY BEHIND because of the Church. amazing ...

They persecuted even galileo, science was always seen as the enemy of the church because it DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE BIBLE.

we have people even TODAY in 2009 who want to teach the fairy tales in SCHOOL over scientific theories.

Sooo, since your statement "science was always seen as the enemy of the church" is patently false, should I treat everything as such as well?

[Blake]

I hope it one day leads you to pray because Jesus promises that anyone who seeks Him will find Him.

really. so in the year 1500, a native in an African tribe was able to find Jesus and share with his fellow tribesman about the wonders of Jesus and his resurrection.

I guess the same goes for Native Americans in the 1700s......oh wait I forgot.......John Smith and the Mormons say that Jesus appeared to them........nevermind.

[Kermit]

I typed all of that with my own hand and I looked for the sources myself.



It's amazing what mentally handicapped people can do nowadays. Kudos sir.

[MiamiHeat]

Sooo, since your statement "science was always seen as the enemy of the church" is patently false, should I treat everything as such as well?


Sooo, since your bullshit rant was ignorant of the harm religion has caused, still causes, and will cause in the future, should I treat everything else as bullshit as well?

[Blake]

For your consideration:

Acts 17:24-27-

"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.
And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. "

not one mention of each man needing to say the prayer of believing in the resurrection of Jesus.

[MiamiHeat]

It's amazing what mentally handicapped people can do nowadays. Kudos sir.

LOL good one :toast

[Phenomanul]

What do you think of this text?


Romans 1:19-20
Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Sorry angel_luv, I didn't realize you had directed this question to me.

This is actually one of my favorite verses, because it speaks volumes about GOD's nature and His fingerprints throughout creation.

Nevertheless, I feel it only addresses the issue about disbelief in GOD Himself - as a higher power. It doesn't address the issue about those who never knew about Christ's redemptive act, information needed for them to make a concious choice about their eternal destination. Perhaps GOD will give them a second chance during his Millenial reign... Again, I don't know.

For the record I believe that infants without cogniscence of right or wrong go to heaven upon death. There is sufficient context in the scriptures to support that belief.

[BacktoBasics]

I just want you guys to know that I've had a lot of fun in here.

:grouphug:

[to21]

This thread is just as pointless as the Quattro thread.....

Jus sayn', in case no one has.




Yes, even tho I posted in it.

[BacktoBasics]

Sorry angel_luv, I didn't realize you had directed this question to me.

This is actually one of my favorite verses, because it speaks volumes about GOD's nature and His fingerprints throughout creation.

Nevertheless, I feel it only addresses the issue about disbelief in GOD Himself - as a higher power. It doesn't address the issue about those who never knew about Christ's redemptive act, information needed for them to make a concious choice about their eternal destination. Perhaps GOD will give them a second chance during his Millenial reign... Again, I don't know.

For the record I believe that infants without cogniscence of right or wrong go to heaven upon death. There is sufficient context in the scriptures to support that belief.but wolfboy burns in hell because he couldn't conclude a god from seeing billions of suns in the sky

[BacktoBasics]

This thread is just as pointless as the Quattro thread.....

Jus sayn', in case no one has.
We know. WE ALL KNOW

[angel_luv]

So he gets into heaven? Even without knowing or worshipping?

The beauty of creation is an unmistakeable memo, drawing our attention towards the God who created the whole earth, including each of us.

What you do with that knowledge- whether you choose to embrace God and His son, Jesus or reject them, is what determines whether or not you are saved.

Jesus said to come to Hiim with the faith of a child.
Perhaps your desire to be intellectual is what is blocking your ability to grasp and receive salvation.

[MiamiHeat]

Sorry angel_luv, I didn't realize you had directed this question to me.

This is actually one of my favorite verses, because it speaks volumes about GOD's nature and His fingerprints throughout creation.

Nevertheless, I feel it only addresses the issue about disbelief in GOD Himself - as a higher power. It doesn't address the issue about those who never knew about Christ's redemptive act, information needed for them to make a concious choice about their eternal destination. Perhaps GOD will give them a second chance during his Millenial reign... Again, I don't know.

For the record I believe that infants without cogniscence of right or wrong go to heaven upon death. There is sufficient context in the scriptures to support that belief.


Bullshit. My God did not say those things. This is what God really said :

"I am Osiris Onnophris who is found perfect before the Gods. I hath said: These are the elements of my Body perfected through suffering, glorified through trial. The scent of the dying Rose is as the repressed sigh of my Suffering. And the flame-red Fire as the energy of mine undaunted Will. And the Cup of Wine is the pouring out of the blood of my heart, sacrificed unto Regeneration, unto the newer life. And the bread and salt are as the foundations of my body, which I destroy in order that they may be renewed.

For I am Osiris Triumphant. Even Osiris Onnophris the Justified One. I am He who is clothed with the body of flesh yet in whom flames the spirit of the eternal Gods. I am the Lord of Life."

[Phenomanul]

but wolfboy burns in hell because he couldn't conclude a god from seeing billions of suns in the sky

Reading comprehension is really not your strong suit, is it?

[MiamiHeat]

Reading comprehension is really not your strong suit, is it?

Don't need reading comprehension. The Eternal Osiris-Re has made it very clear for me to understand. With His great wisdom.

Who are you to doubt Him?

[Blake]

Sorry angel_luv, I didn't realize you had directed this question to me.

This is actually one of my favorite verses, because it speaks volumes about GOD's nature and His fingerprints throughout creation.

Nevertheless, I feel it only addresses the issue about disbelief in GOD Himself - as a higher power. It doesn't address the issue about those who never knew about Christ's redemptive act, information needed for them to make a concious choice about their eternal destination. Perhaps GOD will give them a second chance during his Millenial reign... Again, I don't know.

For the record I believe that infants without cogniscence of right or wrong go to heaven upon death. There is sufficient context in the scriptures to support that belief.

I think there has been sufficient cause for concern over the years for the salvation of primitives.......otherwise the job of missionary would be basically pointless.

[angel_luv]

not one mention of each man needing to say the prayer of believing in the resurrection of Jesus.

The book of Romans was written as one complete letter.

In consideration of post length I didn't post the entire thing for you but here is a link to it:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans;&version=31;

Click the appropriate arrows at the bottom of the page to proceed to the following chapters.

[DarkReign]

Sooo, since your bullshit rant was ignorant of the harm religion has caused, still causes, and will cause in the future, should I treat everything else as bullshit as well?

Hmm, that wasnt very logical at all.

You said, "science was always seen as an enemy of the Church". Which is patently false. That isnt a debate, sorry.

You however then lend only an opinion phrased similarly to my wording in response?

You obviously have no intention of having an honest debate, do you?

[Blake]

Perhaps your desire to be intellectual is what is blocking your ability to grasp and receive salvation.

no my desire for truth is what is still blocking my desire to fall head over heels back into Christianity.

[Blake]

The book of Romans was written as one complete letter.

In consideration of post length I didn't post the entire thing for you but here is a link to it:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans;&version=31;

Click the appropriate arrows at the bottom of the page to proceed to the following chapters.

no thanks. Honestly, I've probably read the Bible more than you.

I's rather have your opinion.

[angel_luv]

I think there has been sufficient cause for concern over the years for the salvation of primitives.......otherwise the job of missionary would be basically pointless.

Jesus did say to go into the whole world and preach the Gospel.

For me witnessing goes beyond a directive I am obeying, it is a privilige to be able to tell as many people as I can about Jesus.
I embrace the opportunity.

[MiamiHeat]

Hmm, that wasnt very logical at all.

You said, "science was always seen as an enemy of the Church". Which is patently false. That isnt a debate, sorry.

You however then lend only an opinion phrased similarly to my wording in response?

You obviously have no intention of having an honest debate, do you?

the summarization of your idiotic bullshit rant : "religion is harmless, who cares guyz, come on letz get along!"

THAT is 'patently false'

THAT isn't a debate.

[BacktoBasics]

Reading comprehension is really not your strong suit, is it?I admit every time I look for a modern day answer and am met with a bible quote I see this

"Words 34:16 words words dodging worse citing other words words words that were pieced together hundreds of years after hearing other unfounded words words words words"


So picky and choosy. Babies get into heaven because thats how you interpreted it. Wolfboy might get into heaven others do not. So on and so forth just so long as it fits somewhere.

[MiamiHeat]

Jesus did say to go into the whole world and preach the Gospel.

For me witnessing goes beyond a directive I am obeying, it is a privilige to be able to tell as many people as I can about Jesus.
I embrace the opportunity.

this kind of brainwashed is the prize of all men

if only we can brainwash her to give us all a blowjob

[Blake]

Reading comprehension is really not your strong suit, is it?

so is believing in Jesus resurrection necessary for salvation? Yes or no?

I fail to see how his question shows a lack of reading comprehension.

[BacktoBasics]

Don't need reading comprehension. The Eternal Osiris-Re has made it very clear for me to understand. With His great wisdom.

Who are you to doubt Him?
I giggle every time you do this. We should serious start a fresh church and take donations in the name of Osiris

[angel_luv]

no thanks. Honestly, I've probably read the Bible more than you.

I's rather have your opinion.

My opinion is that you need Jesus. :)

[MiamiHeat]

I giggle every time you do this. We should serious start a fresh church and take donations in the name of Osiris

we'd certainly have slightly better ground to stand on than christianity. pre-date

[Blake]

Jesus did say to go into the whole world and preach the Gospel.

For me witnessing goes beyond a directive I am obeying, it is a privilige to be able to tell as many people as I can about Jesus.
I embrace the opportunity.

right. But seeing how it is impossible to reach the whole world, I ask again for the what 21st time?

Are the primitives saved if they never hear the Gospel of Jesus but can still find whatever form of God they find in nature as you suggest?

[Blake]

My opinion is that you need Jesus. :)

Not if I'm a Jewish wolf boy

Of course, now that you told me about Jesus, I'm doomed if I don't accept him.........Thanks for dooming me.

I was so much better off not knowing.

[MiamiHeat]

right. But seeing how it is impossible to reach the whole world, I ask again for the what 21st time?

Are the primitives saved if they never hear the Gospel of Jesus but can still find whatever form of God they find in nature as you suggest?

no. they are not saved. they go to hell and their 'spirit', that has no pain receptors, gets burned in flames and tortured for eternity.


"Worship that? Never!"

[DarkReign]

the summarization of your idiotic bullshit rant : "religion is harmless, who cares guyz, come on letz get along!"

THAT is 'patently false'

THAT isn't a debate.

What you say is true.

Hundreds of fucking years ago.

Sorry MH, the Renaissance happened before we were alive. Church rule will never happen again, as much as you have faith that it might.

[angel_luv]

right. But seeing how it is impossible to reach the whole world, I ask again for the what 21st time?

Are the primitives saved if they never hear the Gospel of Jesus but can still find whatever form of God they find in nature as you suggest?

Funny how you seem to be assuming that the God who created the whole universe is incapable of directly revealing Himself to primitives as need be.

[MiamiHeat]

really, angel_luv hasn't even come to grips with the conflicting problems in the bible, or the illogical behavior of her god, or the inconsistencies and contradictions in the bible.

nevermind trying to show her the origin of the religion

[MiamiHeat]

What you say is true.

Hundreds of fucking years ago.

Sorry MH, the Renaissance happened before we were alive. Church rule will never happen again, as much as you have faith that it might.

stem-cell research

Israel currently at war

9/11

homosexual marriage

etc..

all of it. religion.

[angel_luv]

Not if I'm a Jewish wolf boy

Of course, now that you told me about Jesus, I'm doomed if I don't accept him.........Thanks for dooming me.

I was so much better off not knowing.

You've already read the Bible, quite a bit- apparently.

I think God allowed our paths cross so I could encourage you in what God's already made known to you through His Word.

[MiamiHeat]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2368534.ece

September 2, 2007
Religion causes harm, says poll

NEARLY half the British think that religion is harmful, according to a poll carried out by YouGov. Yet more than half also believe in God “or something”.

The YouGov poll commissioned by John Humphrys, the broadcaster and writer, found that 42% of the 2,200 people taking part considered religion had a harmful effect.

“One reason might be the publicity attracted by a handful of mad mullahs and their hate-filled rhetoric,” writes Humphrys in his new book, In God We Doubt, an extract of which appears in today’s Sunday Times News Review.

Only 16% of those polled called themselves atheists; 28% believed in God; 26% believed in “something” but were not sure what; and 9% regarded themselves as agnostics - like Humphrys himself, who had a religious upbringing in Wales but calls himself a “doubter”.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2368534.ece

[CuckingFunt]

I think God allowed our paths cross so I could encourage you in what God's already made known to you through His Word.

I think it's batshit crazy to assume that, if there's a god, he/she/it is paying even casual attention to what any one of us is doing on a message board.

[Phenomanul]

Bullshit. My God did not say those things. This is what God really said :

"I am Osiris Onnophris who is found perfect before the Gods. I hath said: These are the elements of my Body perfected through suffering, glorified through trial. The scent of the dying Rose is as the repressed sigh of my Suffering. And the flame-red Fire as the energy of mine undaunted Will. And the Cup of Wine is the pouring out of the blood of my heart, sacrificed unto Regeneration, unto the newer life. And the bread and salt are as the foundations of my body, which I destroy in order that they may be renewed.

For I am Osiris Triumphant. Even Osiris Onnophris the Justified One. I am He who is clothed with the body of flesh yet in whom flames the spirit of the eternal Gods. I am the Lord of Life."

You realize how many anachronistic statements are found within these paragraphs alone?

This structural incoherency points to the fact that whomever is writing the content of your Christ-myther sites is not properly conducting their homework. The strained nature of their parallelisms is so 'forced' that it literally shouts, 'fabrication'.

Furthermore, it's no surprise that the hieroglyphics on the site you posted don't conform to the standard translations found on several crytography manuals. Really, ES completely debunked and shattered the historical accuracy of your sources. I don't even know why you continue to post their intentionally misleading, agenda-driven, lies.... oh wait....

Those sites just serve to counterproductively boost the unbelief of people such as yourself who already have an axe to grind against believers. The fact that you have succumbed to their lies, however, does little to counter the historical existence of Jesus. Other, far more brilliant men have tried and failed. What makes you any smarter? Even Einstein came to the conclusion that GOD existed (even if it wasn't the Christian/Judeo GOD).

[MiamiHeat]

You've already read the Bible, quite a bit- apparently.

I think God allowed our paths cross so I could encourage you in what God's already made known to you through His Word.

Incorrect. It is He who Created All Things, Amun-Ra, that made -our- paths cross. I am here to help you, my sister. Please, do not turn away from the Truth and the Life.

He loves you.

[DarkReign]

You know, I was reading about the Enlightenment period and stumbled upon a pretty good assertion.

Islam has inherent advantaged over Christianity from its youth alone. Islam is not old enough to have ever claimed the formation of Earth and the universe, hasnt been around as long to suppress scientific advancement to only later concede its finer points and provable facts.

Islam only deals in the items of existence which are not provable, thus rendering it unassailable by reasoned minds.

Obviously, I have never read the Quran so I cant say with absolutism that this is true, but if the Quran makes no such claims of creation, I would find this idea intriguing.

[baseline bum]

stfu

:lol

you're the graham harrell of trolls. You think you deserve to be in the talks for the troll trophy, but nobody even wants you at the ceremony.

:lmao

[angel_luv]

I think it's batshit crazy to assume that, if there's a god, he/she/it is paying even casual attention to what any one of us is doing on a message board.


I believe God, like any good Father, is happy to be included in all I am doing.
I believe that Jesus thoroughly enjoys my company.

The crazy I am is crazy blessed, which makes me crazy joyful. :)

[MiamiHeat]

You realize how many anachronistic statements are found within these paragraphs alone?

This structural incoherency points to the fact that whomever is writing the content of your Christ-myther sites is not properly conducting their homework. The strained nature of their parallelisms is so 'forced' that it literally shouts, 'fabrication'.

It is Divinely Inspired work. It is the Invocation of Osiris. How else are we to receive His holy teachings? We write it through the Divine Inspiration of Him.

I have faith that this is true.

[Blake]

Funny how you seem to be assuming that the God who created the whole universe is incapable of directly revealing Himself to primitives as need be.

I think it's funny that the God who created the whole universe seems to have 100 different religions and several different books and many different ways to read "His Word" to fit whatever agenda one might have.

[MiamiHeat]

Invocation of Osiris

"And the Cup of Wine is the pouring out of the blood of my heart, sacrificed unto Regeneration, unto the newer life. And the bread and salt are as the foundations of my body, which I destroy in order that they may be renewed."

It is you BLASPHEMER Christian heathens who have corrupted and stolen the practice and words of Him. The Truth and The Life, Osiris-Re. The pouring of Wine is -His- blood and the Bread is -His- body.

Only through His wisdom can we live the right way. So that He may judge us favorably after we pass from the earth.

[baseline bum]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/atheist-bus-campaign-nationwide

:lol nice

[Heath Ledger]

Don't forget to put your money in the offering basket. Can you really afford not to? wink wink.

[Blake]

You know, I was reading about the Enlightenment period and stumbled upon a pretty good assertion.

Islam has inherent advantaged over Christianity from its youth alone. Islam is not old enough to have ever claimed the formation of Earth and the universe, hasnt been around as long to suppress scientific advancement to only later concede its finer points and provable facts.

Islam only deals in the items of existence which are not provable, thus rendering it unassailable by reasoned minds.

Obviously, I have never read the Quran so I cant say with absolutism that this is true, but if the Quran makes no such claims of creation, I would find this idea intriguing.

The Quran talks about God creating the Earth in 6 days and then heading back to the throne.

The Bible says "God rested on the 7th day" which is odd for an all powerful being, don't you think?


this is a great read about Zoroastrianism.......which of all places the source is from a Jewish encyclopedia:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=147&letter=Z&search=zoroast

"Most scholars, Jewish as well as non-Jewish, are of the opinion that Judaism was strongly influenced by Zoroastrianism in views relating to angelology and demonology, and probably also in the doctrine of the resurrection, as well as in eschatological ideas in general, and also that the monotheistic conception of Yhwh may have been quickened and strengthened by being opposed to the dualism or quasi-monotheism of the Persians."

[BacktoBasics]

You realize how many anachronistic statements are found within these paragraphs alone?

This structural incoherency points to the fact that whomever is writing the content of your Christ-myther sites is not properly conducting their homework. The strained nature of their parallelisms is so 'forced' that it literally shouts, 'fabrication'.

Osiris did this to test my faith. The faith of his followers. To truely be blessed one requires only faith regardless of what other religions correlate to Osiris or don't.

[Phenomanul]

so is believing in Jesus resurrection necessary for salvation? Yes or no?

I believe it is.


I fail to see how his question shows a lack of reading comprehension.


His assumption that 'wolfboy' would go to hell based on my previous response was unbased. (i.e. why I called him out on comprehension in the first place). I made no such asserstion. I said, "I honestly don't know - maybe they'll get a second chance during Jesus' Millenial reign".

I'm fully aware that your particular scenario is 'gray enough' to be different.

The answer could be:

1) It doesn't matter that they didn't hear of Jesus. They should have come to genuine repentance of their sins while in their search for GOD, who made Himself clearly evident in Creation.

2) Christ will give them a chance to accept him as their King during His millenial reign on earth.

Again, I don't know for certain.

[DarkReign]

stem-cell research

Israel currently at war

9/11

homosexual marriage

etc..

all of it. religion.

I could add abortion to your list.

So, your agenda is then the eradication of religious thinking as the sole ill-will of human interaction?

As if, through some magic bullet, you somehow removed all religious thinking from the world and the minds of everyone, somehow we would live in Utopia?

Lets not extend that much gratitude to rational thought. While stem-cell research is certainly a viable candidate for your list, lets not muddy the waters in response to the others.

Terrorism is a facade of religion. Religion is just Extermism's tool to convince others of their cause. Its a straw man. So maybe the 19 hijackers were doing it for religious reasons, the people who put them up to it were not. It was purely geo-political, as is everything in matters of war (these days anyway, not so in the past).

Abortion goes beyond religion. At least, I can see how it does anyway. Murder is murder. If the fetus has consciuosness, then it is alive. Killing it would be murder. I dont care about abortion one way or the other, but if one day it is proven beyond reasonable doubt that a (arbitrary guess here) 6 month fetus is conscious and sentient, then abortion becomes murder, punishable by law.

Homosexual marriage has less to do with religion than it does societal norms and societies groaning when such norms are indeed, bucked. Sure, the religious use it as a divisive tool (much like Terrorists use religion) to garner support against it, but it doesnt make it a religious issue.

Israel is not a religious issue. Its a historical issue. That the Jews are of a different God certainly inflames matters to the nth degree, the entire situation there has more to do with the creation of an Israeli state 60 years ago and the USA's aid to it, both monetarily and militarily. Sanctions, blockades, refusal of humanitarian aid to Gaza all help push a land dispute into a religious context, when really, it is not at all.

[BacktoBasics]

The Quran talks about God creating the Earth in 6 days and then heading back to the throne.

The Bible says "God rested on the 7th day" which is odd for an all powerful being, don't you think?Some of us here might correlate "throne" with our modern day toilet.

See if Phenomanul can debunk that.

[MiamiHeat]

Osiris did this to test my faith. The faith of his followers. To truely be blessed one requires only faith regardless of what other religions correlate to Osiris or don't.

:rollin

[I Love Me Some Me]

Just when I thought I was out, THEY PULL ME BACK IN!!!
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/774/godfatheren1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Why do you keep doing this?


Let's take a look at claims made by those who deny the facts :

Click on words for link.


Claim #1 - Isis was not a virgin

First, we have to understand how the ancient egyptians lived. They worshipped over 2,000 Gods. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/gods_gallery.shtml) They had different versions/accounts/stories for the same Gods in different areas around Egypt. They did not have -1- canonical religion like you are familiar with. When you read an account of Horus' birth, just remember you are reading one account. There are several different stories.

ALL of the Horus birth stories involve a miraculous birth.

1) In one account, Isis is impregnated by "a flash of lightning" (http://books.google.com/books?id=Mb3F7roWPvsC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=isis+impregnated+by+lightning&source=web&ots=05QAz5rf1p&sig=W101TskOoKHoK3ZqoYfuvRKU5Po)and in another account "begotten by a ray of light from heaven". (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/29660/Apis) She gives birth to Horus/Apis. Apis is an Egyptian Bull God that is another form of Osiris, they are associated as one and the same (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/29660/Apis). He is most famous for being worshipped by the Israelites as a "Golden Calf" after they leave Egypt and while Moses is on Mt. Sinai.

So. Isis gives birth to Apis (Osiris/Horus) "begotten by a ray of light from heaven". Virgin birth.

There are more accounts, however, but they all involve some sort of miraculous birth. The one I have given however, is a virgin birth.

There is even many accounts of Virgin Queens and Mothers, such as Mut-Em-Usa, the VIRGIN QUEEN OF EGYPT (http://englishatheist.org/indexd.shtml).

You have heard of the QUEEN OF SHEEBA. She was famous for her chastity aka VIRGINITY. She ruled Ethiopia, which would be part of Egypt, around 960 BC.

Virgin women of importance is nothing new to the Egyptians.


Claim #2 - Isis-Meri does not exist so it didn't influence "Mary"

Isis is one of the original Mother Goddess. She too, had many forms. She was worshipped for THOUSANDS of years and was only surpassed by the Virgin Mary.

Isis is not her ONLY name obviously, since the egyptians worshipped many forms of Isis, the Mother Goddess.
'Goddess of Many Names' / 'Queen of the Gods' (http://www.ancientnile.co.uk/gods.php)

She is also known as Aset, Ast, Est, Meri-En-Sakar, and many others.

One of Isis' forms was the Goddess of Nature and Harvest - MERI-EN-SAKAR. (http://books.google.com/books?id=hlFtAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA334&lpg=PA334&dq=egyptian+god+meri&source=web&ots=b1eQammvH7&sig=KFWlUdbhLfUNFSTsFykZhXo8djY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA334,M1) They are all forms of ISIS, the Mother.

Isis ultimately absorbed and represented hundreds of different goddesses, all forms of the Mother, ISIS. Her worship survived until around the 6th century CE.


Claim #3 - The 'Mother of God' Mary in Christianity did not copy/borrow/steal from Isis the Mother of God

To quote from this source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/virginmary_1.shtml):

"When Christianity was spreading across the Empire, it's clear that it deliberately took images from the pagan world in which it lived and into which it spread and used those images. Old holy wells and shrines were turned into Christian shrines. In Egypt a shrine of Isis was deliberately and self-consciously re-created as a shrine of Mary."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MaryAndHorus.JPG

The connections are so similar, sometimes scholars can't even tell if they are looking at Mary or Isis.



Claim #4 - December 25 was not celebrated by Ancient Egyptians as the birth of Horus/Osiris

This is an Ancient Egyptian Calendar (http://showcase.netins.net/web/ankh/calendar1.html)

"Birth of Heru (Horus) the child of Aset (Isis) ; Going forth of Wadjet singing in Heliopolis;Day of Elevating the Great Netjert (Goddess) in all Her names & manifestations"


Jesus' birth day is NEVER mentioned in the Bible, however it too is celebrated on Dec. 25th once again, to coincide with this ancient worship of the Sun. The date was chosen to occur on the same date as the birth of Horus, Mithra, Dionysus and the Sol Invictus (unconquerable Sun), etc.


Claim #5 - Horus' birth is not heralded by a Star in the East as Jesus was

The Star in the East is known as Sirius. Sirius is the brightest star in the sky, almost twice as bright as the next brightest star. (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sirius) Sirius was an important star for the ancient egyptians. They based their calendar around Siirus. (http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/dailylife/calendar.html) They called it "the going up of the goddess Sothis". Sothis/Sirius has always been identified with Isis (http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/sothis.htm).

Ok. So, the Star in The East/Isis heralds the birth of the Sun/Son of God Horus.


Claim #6 - Isis/Horus/Osiris are not the original "holy trinity"

Isis is the Mother of God, the Great Mother Goddess.
Horus is the Son of Osiris/ Son of God
Osiris is the Father, "Judge of the Dead in the Afterlife" (http://history.howstuffworks.com/ancient-egypt/osiris.htm)

Yeah. Apparently, Osiris was judging the dead well before Jehovah.

They are the original Holy Trinity.

Osiris' worship was still widespread until around 388 CE (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14577d.htm), when Theodosius (the last roman emperor) declared Nicene Christianity the official state religion and began punishing all other religious practices.


OOps. guess Extra Stout's ass is 'kicked up and down this thread'


I swear that's at least the 4th or 5th time you've posted that exact same text, word for word, and introduced it like it's a new argument. These points have been addressed. If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were re-posting these claims in hopes that new participants to the thread who are not inclined to read the entire 50+ pages think you've brought something new and relevant to the discussion.

For those of you just joining us, these points have been discussed ad nauseum and hold little to no value.

[MiamiHeat]

Israel is not a religious issue. Its a historical issue. That the Jews are of a different God certainly inflames matters to the nth degree, the entire situation there has more to do with the creation of an Israeli state 60 years ago and the USA's aid to it, both monetarily and militarily. Sanctions, blockades, refusal of humanitarian aid to Gaza all help push a land dispute into a religious context, when really, it is not at all.

You do realize God promised them both the same land?

It is most certainly a religious issue. That is the Holy Land to both of these peoples and both think they are the chosen that God promised it to.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

For those of you just joining us, these points have been discussed ad nauseum and hold little to no value.


Congrats, you've just described the entire thread in one sentence.

[Jesus]

I think it's batshit crazy to assume that, if there's a god, he/she/it is paying even casual attention to what any one of us is doing on a message board.


Think again. You really think Al Gore invented the internet. :lol

[MiamiHeat]

Think again. You really think Al Gore invented the internet. :lol

We're onto you. The jig is up

[Phenomanul]

It is Divinely Inspired work. It is the Invocation of Osiris. How else are we to receive His holy teachings? We write it through the Divine Inspiration of Him.

I have faith that this is true.

Another disengenuous attempt to hide the fact that you are unable to counter the flawed nature of your copy/paste arguments.

Your sources are fake. A varied version of the "spaghetti monster's" attempt to undermine belief in GOD.

[Blake]

well if you say this:


I believe it is.

then


His assumption that 'wolfboy' would go to hell based on my previous response was unbased. (i.e. why I called him out on comprehension in the first place). I made no such asserstion. I said, "I honestly don't know - maybe they'll get a second chance during Jesus' Millenial reign".

makes his question valid.


I'm fully aware that your particular scenario is 'gray enough' to be different.

The answer could be:

1) It doesn't matter that they didn't hear of Jesus. They should have come to genuine repentance of their sins while in their search for GOD, who made Himself clearly evident in Creation.

2) Christ will give them a chance to accept him as their King during His millenial reign on earth.

Again, I don't know for certain.

My answer is "that's not good enough when the book of Romans and Angel Luv use the word "clearly" "

[MiamiHeat]

Another disengenuous attempt to hide the fact that you are unable to counter the flawed nature of your copy/paste arguments.

Your sources are fake. .
and where exactly are your sources for this ridiculous claim?

I believe that they are real. It is my personal faith. You have proven nada, zero, nothing. Those are your "facts" ?

[BacktoBasics]

Another disengenuous attempt to hide the fact that you are unable to counter the flawed nature of your copy/paste arguments.

Your sources are fake. A varied version of the "spaghetti monster's" attempt to undermine belief in GOD.I love your high and mightly stance. As if your thumper rebuttals hold more weight than his.

Provide:

1. A first hand account of an original document or text from the time of Jesus
2. Physical evidence

[baseline bum]

What I *don't* know about Scientology is what they believe happens to you after you die, or if you are a non-believer.

In 2000 years will people be having conversations about the historicity of Ron Hubbard?

I wonder.

On a side note, scientology really is despicable. They basically get you to confess your worst skeletons in the closet so they have something on you should you ever leave.

[RandomGuy]

no. they are not saved. they go to hell and their 'spirit', that has no pain receptors, gets burned in flames and tortured for eternity.


"Worship that? Never!"


The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprise of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action. -- Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia! -- Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remembered.

Wordeth to thine Mother. :lol

[Phenomanul]

Some of us here might correlate "throne" with our modern day toilet.

See if Phenomanul can debunk that.

Now I know you're reaching.... when toilet humor enters the fray, it can point to two things.

Diversionary tactics...

or

I don't know what else to say...

Either way it's still a copout.

Too bad you just can't accept the fact that others have the perogative to believe what they do. I've never forced others into believing what I do; it's contrary to what Jesus taught. Nevertheless, I am comissioned to spread it to all those who need to hear GOD's message of hope.

[RandomGuy]

The beauty of creation is an unmistakeable memo, drawing our attention towards the God who created the whole earth, including each of us.

What you do with that knowledge- whether you choose to embrace God and His son, Jesus or reject them, is what determines whether or not you are saved.

Jesus said to come to Hiim with the faith of a child.
Perhaps your desire to be intellectual is what is blocking your ability to grasp and receive salvation.

"I think, therefore God is?"

This thread is golden. Interesting bits on both sides.

[baseline bum]

This is beyond me. It just goes to show you how easy it is to create a religion. Hell these thumpers on here scream about how its impossible to create a myth in such a short period of time.

Look no further. It has quite a following.

Mormonism is a much more compelling example. I'm really not trying to insult it, but it has come from nowhere in 150 years or so to become a serious mainstream religion.

[RandomGuy]

... although one has to bear a lot of fardels when reading through it.

I hate bearing fardels. :ihit

[clambake]

yeah, that, and watch out for demons.

[RandomGuy]

Mormonism is a much more compelling example. I'm really not trying to insult it, but it has come from nowhere in 150 years or so.

That, Scientology, and Foulun Gong.

Always fun to see what new religions we come up with. I like the older ones though. Nothing beats ancient creation myths like the Nordic and Greek style. That stuff had panache.

[RandomGuy]

yeah, that, and watch out for demons.

careful, or I will splash magic water on you. :lol

[MiamiHeat]

the truly amazing feat is that Mormonism did it in our age. not 2,000 some years ago when it was commonplace to worship many gods.

[Phenomanul]

and where exactly are your sources for this ridiculous claim?

I believe that they are real. It is my personal faith. You have proven nada, zero, nothing. Those are your "facts" ?

Now you're just trolling. Sign of the defeated.

When you come back with more than just, I read it on theses sites*, I'll
listen.

The accounts of your Egyptian mythology are so incongruent with everything else we know about Egyptian history and culture. Again, the strained nature of the parallelisms they are trying to create between JESUS and HORUS is so deceitful it reeks of forgery. Not that you would understand. I'm pretty sure your history courses covered all that material extensively. :rolleyes

[baseline bum]

I hope it one day leads you to pray because Jesus promises that anyone who seeks Him will find Him.

Never found him in 19 years of looking.

[RandomGuy]

Let me give [explaining Scientology] a shot:

$ $ $ $

Pretty much. I highly doubt that the high muckety mucks of the "church" believe their own drivel.

[CuckingFunt]

Mormonism is a much more compelling example. I'm really not trying to insult it, but it has come from nowhere in 150 years or so to become a serious mainstream religion.

Part 1 (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104253).

Part 2 (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104256).

Part 3 (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/104257).

Part 4 (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/154257).

[MiamiHeat]

Now you're just trolling. Sign of the defeated.

When you come back with more than just, I read it on theses sites*, I'll
listen.



Again with no sources to back up your claims?

You have proven nothing. My faith is unshaken.

[RandomGuy]

Never found him in 19 years of looking.

http://i.s.shopwiki.com/i/data/0x0/7/800/797/aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jcmF6eWRvZ3RzaGlydHMuY29tL2NhdGFsb2 cvamVzdXMtc2F2ZXMtc29jY2VyLmdpZg====.gif

[RandomGuy]

Hopefully I won't go to hell for that pun.


:angel

[jack sommerset]

Not if I'm a Jewish wolf boy

Of course, now that you told me about Jesus, I'm doomed if I don't accept him.........Thanks for dooming me.

I was so much better off not knowing.

Nope. Even if you lived a "perfect life" and never heard the name Jesus you would go to Hell. Thats what alot of Christians think. Here is the crazy part.

You could be a priest,fuck a alter boy in his ass,slit his neck,stick ur kawk in that,steal the change from his pocket,buy some crack,get drunk,drive to the special Olympics and run over every retard on the feild and as long as you except Jesus you will go to heaven because he died for the sins of all men.

[Phenomanul]

yeah, that, and watch out for demons.

Your insipid hack is getting old. :rolleyes

Have you done what I asked you to do?

Have you stared at a mirror, entered a trance and asked the demon-world that you be possesed by a legion? I mean if they don't exist what harm could that possibly do?

[RandomGuy]

You have proven nothing. My faith is unshaken.

This pretty much sums up the entire thread for everybody involved.

OK, back to work. Adios, amigas and amigos. Try not to get too much spittle on your keyboards.

[baseline bum]

"I think, therefore God is?"

This thread is golden. Interesting bits on both sides.

Sounds like angel is descartes reincarnated.

[clambake]

Your insipid hack is getting old. :rolleyes

Have you done what I asked you to do?

Have you stared at a mirror, entered a trance and asked the demon-world that you be possesed by a legion? I mean if they don't exist what harm could that possibly do?

your dad really fucked you up.

[I Love Me Some Me]

even simpler put, not everyone has access to "the Word of God"

I also jumped back in to address this issue, because I think there's some mis-information being tossed about. Particularly by Christians who are afraid to confront the reality that their God is ultimately going to judge people and sentence them to death. That's the reality of your faith.

So to the question, "what about those who never hear the gospel? Will God condemn them?", the answer is, in short...Yes, he will condemn them.

You have to think about things in terms of sin and mercy. Sin brings quilt, mercy brings a pardon of that guilt. Anyone who has sinned deserves punishment, and those who have not confessed Jesus as their savior will not be entitled to the mercy that salvation brings. Let me put it to you this way...if I ask you, "How can a judge/jury send someone to jail if he didn't offer him a pardon first?" The answer is, if the guy's guilty, the judge/jury is justified by throwing him in prison. There is no obligation to offer a pardon prior to a determination of guilt.

The same is true of God...He can justly convict someone who has broken his laws, even though the sinner has heard nothing about God's pardon in Jesus.

[Phenomanul]

You do realize God promised them both the same land?

It is most certainly a religious issue. That is the Holy Land to both of these peoples and both think they are the chosen that God promised it to.

Why then are the Palestinians not allowed into Egypt and have only restricted access to Saudi Arabia's holy sites? Why don't the Syrians let them in to Syria? Or why do the Jordanians send them to refugee camps?

The tactic by the Middle Eastern world to politically masquerade the issue as solely-religious has been cause for much strife.

[jack sommerset]

Your insipid hack is getting old. :rolleyes

Have you done what I asked you to do?

Have you stared at a mirror, entered a trance and asked the demon-world that you be possesed by a legion? I mean if they don't exist what harm could that possibly do?

I have tested that theory. I said " I will sell my soul to you Devil only if you will give me 10 million dollars and allow me to live as I want until I am a 100" Nothing. I stopped asking years ago. Plus I figiure if there was a Devil and granted me my offer I could re-nig by accepting Jesus Christ in my life.

[Phenomanul]

I also jumped back in to address this issue, because I think there's some mis-information being tossed about. Particularly by Christians who are afraid to confront the reality that their God is ultimately going to judge people and sentence them to death. That's the reality of your faith.

So to the question, "what about those who never hear the gospel? Will God condemn them?", the answer is, in short...Yes, he will condemn them.

You have to think about things in terms of sin and mercy. Sin brings quilt, mercy brings a pardon of that guilt. Anyone who has sinned deserves punishment, and those who have not confessed Jesus as their savior will not be entitled to the mercy that salvation brings. Let me put it to you this way...if I ask you, "How can a judge/jury send someone to jail if he didn't offer him a pardon first?" The answer is, if the guy's guilty, the judge/jury is justified by throwing him in prison. There is no obligation to offer a pardon prior to a determination of guilt.

The same is true of God...He can justly convict someone who has broken his laws, even though the sinner has heard nothing about God's pardon in Jesus.

Good analogy. :tu

[RandomGuy]

Your insipid hack is getting old. :rolleyes

Have you done what I asked you to do?

Have you stared at a mirror, entered a trance and asked the demon-world that you be possesed by a legion? I mean if they don't exist what harm could that possibly do?

None, if one is a true skeptic.

I imagine it would be something like the guy who dared a fellow panelist who fancied himself a sorcerer to curse him to death on Indian national television (http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/2008/20080310/en_1.html).
http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/2008/20080310/images/20080310_1_2.jpg


After nearly two hours, the anchor declared the tantrik’s failure. The tantrik, unwilling to admit defeat, tried the excuse that a very strong god whom Sanal might be worshipping obviously protected him. “No, I am an atheist,” said Sanal Edamaruku. Finally, the disgraced tantrik tried to save his face by claiming that there was a never-failing special black magic for ultimate destruction, which could, however, only been done at night. Bad luck again, he did not get away with this, but was challenged to prove his claim this very night in another “breaking news” live program.

That said, putting oneself into a trance would make one highly suggestible, and even if something happened, would hardly be proof of demons.

(begin edit)

Perhaps one should go up to a skeptic website and see if anyone would take this challenge to see. Easy enough to record and it would make an interesting exercise.

[DarkReign]

Why then are the Palestinians not allowed into Egypt and have only restricted access to Saudi Arabia's holy sites? Why don't the Syrians let them in to Syria? Or why do the Jordanians send them to refugee camps?

The tactic by the Middle Eastern world to politically masquerade the issue as solely-religious has been cause for much strife.

Bingo. Its geo-political, it always has been.

Like I said, I am not saying religion hasnt inlfamed the situation to an intolerable degree (it most certainly has), but with or without religion, when your country is given over to foreigners by foreigners, hate tends to breed.

[Blake]

Have you stared at a mirror, entered a trance and asked the demon-world that you be possesed by a legion? I mean if they don't exist what harm could that possibly do?

until proven otherwise.....none.

you watch too many horror flicks

:lol

[Phenomanul]

your dad really fucked you up.

"I would say the same about your dad... but honestly I'm starting to believe you grew up without his counsel." Really??? Is that type of banter you want to get into?

:rolleyes...

Seriously - grow up.

Otherwise I will be forced to hack into your computer and delete everything you hold dear. Haven't you heard? All MIT graduates can do that.

[Phenomanul]

until proven otherwise.....none.

you watch too many horror flicks

:lol

Actually, I don't waste my time with them -- just an old tale from grade school.

[MiamiHeat]

Bingo. Its geo-political, it always has been.

Like I said, I am not saying religion hasnt inlfamed the situation to an intolerable degree (it most certainly has), but with or without religion, when your country is given over to foreigners by foreigners, hate tends to breed.

Why do you think that land is important to israel in the first place? they could have formed a state somewhere in south america maybe.

please, use your brain.

religion is the cause of all of this.

the babylonians destroyed the first temple, then the romans destroyed the second temple. now the jews have their holy land back, took it by force, and then they want to build the third temple but one little problem. there is a mosque on the very site where the third temple should be built. apparently, both religions think that is a very special spot.

really now, it's not up for debate. that land is holy to both sides. that's why israel wanted

[DarkReign]

Why do you think that land was given to Israel in the first place? Why not move them somewhere in south america?

please, use your brain

religion is the cause of all of this.

Uhh, yeah, because it was their Promised Land, right?

Because Europe decided "Hey! Its in the Bible, right? Might as well give it to them."

Come on. They gave it to them because no one else wanted them, period. And Britain didnt give two shits about which of their multiple real-estates they had to give in order to get the Jews out.

It wasnt religion. It was convenience.

[Blake]

I also jumped back in to address this issue, because I think there's some mis-information being tossed about. Particularly by Christians who are afraid to confront the reality that their God is ultimately going to judge people and sentence them to death. That's the reality of your faith.

So to the question, "what about those who never hear the gospel? Will God condemn them?", the answer is, in short...Yes, he will condemn them.

You have to think about things in terms of sin and mercy. Sin brings quilt, mercy brings a pardon of that guilt. Anyone who has sinned deserves punishment, and those who have not confessed Jesus as their savior will not be entitled to the mercy that salvation brings. Let me put it to you this way...if I ask you, "How can a judge/jury send someone to jail if he didn't offer him a pardon first?" The answer is, if the guy's guilty, the judge/jury is justified by throwing him in prison. There is no obligation to offer a pardon prior to a determination of guilt.

The same is true of God...He can justly convict someone who has broken his laws, even though the sinner has heard nothing about God's pardon in Jesus.

It's like traveling to another country. Just because you don't know all the rules doesn't mean that you can't be held accountable for those rules.

Thing is, I question the rules.

A Jew born in say 20 AD and living his life by the Hebrew code, firmly believing in God and doing the things he knows to do according to the Old Testament is still screwed if he dies sometime after 33 AD.....

If he had died around 32 AD, he would have been ok.

[MiamiHeat]

wow how hard headed can you be. truly unbelievable

Jews HAVE ALWAYS MOURNED the destruction of the FIRST TEMPLE and then the romans destroying the SECOND TEMPLE. THEY were nomads for a LONG TIME YEARNING to go back to the HOly Land promised to them by God. "Zion the land of Israel" it's -ALL- OVER THE BIBLE.

the jewish prayer book, the bible, they WANT TO GO BACK TO ISRAEL, "THE PROMISED LAND"

That = RELIGION. ridiculous.

[clambake]

"I would say the same about your dad... but honestly I'm starting to believe you grew up without his counsel."
you're confusing counsel with brainwashing. his act was very effective on you.



Seriously - grow up.

Otherwise I will be forced to hack into your computer and delete everything you hold dear. Haven't you heard? All MIT graduates can do that.

you should have had more faith in your education.

[jack sommerset]

It's like traveling to another country. Just because you don't know all the rules doesn't mean that you can't be held accountable for those rules.

Thing is, I question the rules.

A Jew born in say 20 AD and living his life by the Hebrew code, firmly believing in God and doing the things he knows to do according to the Old Testament is still screwed if he dies sometime after 33 AD.....

If he had died around 32 AD, he would have been ok.

Yes, the first grandfather clause.

[I Love Me Some Me]

It's like traveling to another country. Just because you don't know all the rules doesn't mean that you can't be held accountable for those rules.

Thing is, I question the rules.

A Jew born in say 20 AD and living his life by the Hebrew code, firmly believing in God and doing the things he knows to do according to the Old Testament is still screwed if he dies sometime after 33 AD.....

If he had died around 32 AD, he would have been ok.

I think he may have been grandfathered in the Hebrew code. :lol

[MiamiHeat]

Why then are the Palestinians not allowed into Egypt and have only restricted access to Saudi Arabia's holy sites? Why don't the Syrians let them in to Syria? Or why do the Jordanians send them to refugee camps?

The tactic by the Middle Eastern world to politically masquerade the issue as solely-religious has been cause for much strife.

THE CURRENT STATE OF ISRAEL EXISTS BECAUSE JEWS BELIEVE, AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED, THAT Israel = THEIR PROMISED LAND.

Read the bible.

This is why the state of israel currently exists today. Because Jews took it by force for RELIGIOUS REASONS.

[Winehole23]

You know, I was reading about the Enlightenment period and stumbled upon a pretty good assertion.

Islam has inherent advantaged over Christianity from its youth alone. Islam is not old enough to have ever claimed the formation of Earth and the universe, hasnt been around as long to suppress scientific advancement to only later concede its finer points and provable facts.On the contrary: European science got a much needed shove from islamic science, at the very beginning of the end of the dark ages.

Avicenna (http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/avicenna.htm) and Averroes (http://www.iep.utm.edu/i/ibnrushd.htm) - are basically responsible for transmitting Aristotle to the European continent as if for the first time.

Alhazen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7810846.stm). Optics.


Ibn al-Haytham is regarded as the "father of modern optics"[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-9) for his influential Book of Optics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Optics) (written while he was under house arrest), which correctly explained and proved the modern intromission theory of vision. He is also recognized so for his experiments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experiment) on optics, including experiments on lenses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_%28optics%29), mirrors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror), refraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refraction), reflection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflection_%28physics%29), and the dispersion of light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light) into its constituent colours.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Deek-10) He studied binocular vision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binocular_vision) and the Moon illusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_illusion), described the finite speed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Hamarneh-12) of light, and argued that it is made of particles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpuscular_theory)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-13) travelling in straight lines.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Hamarneh-12)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-14) Due to his formulation of a modern quantitative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative) and empirical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical) approach to physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics) and science, he is considered the pioneer of the modern scientific method[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Gorini-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Agar-16) and the originator of the experimental nature of physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_physics)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-17) and science.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-18) Author Bradley Steffens describes him as the "first scientist".[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-19) He is also considered by A. I. Sabra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._I._Sabra) to be the founder of experimental psychology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_psychology)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Khaleefa-20) for his approach to visual perception and optical illusions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_illusion),[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Steffens-21) and a pioneer of the philosophical field of phenomenology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenology_%28philosophy%29) or the study of consciousness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness) from a first-person perspective (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-person_perspective). His Book of Optics has been ranked with Isaac Newton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton)'s Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophiae_Naturalis_Principia_Mathematica) as one of the most influential books in the history of physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_physics),[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Salih-22) for starting a revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_revolution) in optics[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Hogendijk-23) and visual perception.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Ragep-24)

Ibn al-Haytham's achievements include many advances in physics and mathematics. He gave the first clear description[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Kelley-25) and correct analysis[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Wade-26) of the camera obscura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camera_obscura). He enunciated Fermat's principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat%27s_principle) of least time and the concept of inertia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia) (Newton's first law of motion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_first_law_of_motion)),[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Salam-27) and developed the concept of momentum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum).[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Nasr-28) He described the attraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitation) between masses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass) and was aware of the magnitude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnitude_%28mathematics%29) of acceleration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acceleration) due to gravity at-a-distance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance_%28physics%29).[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Bizri-29) He stated that the heavenly bodies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_object) were accountable to the laws of physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law) and also presented a critique and reform of Ptolemaic astronomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model). He was the first to state Wilson's theorem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson%27s_theorem) in number theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_theory), and he formulated the Lambert quadrilateral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambert_quadrilateral)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Rozenfeld-30) and a concept similar to Playfair's axiom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playfair%27s_axiom)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Smith-31) now used in non-Euclidean geometry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry). Moreover, he formulated and solved Alhazen's problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#Alhazen.27s_problem) geometrically using early ideas related to calculus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus) and mathematical induction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_induction).[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Katz-32) In his optical research, he laid the foundations for the later development of telescopic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescope) astronomy,[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Marshall-33) as well as for the microscope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microscope) and the use of optical aids in Renaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance) art.[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham#cite_note-Power-34)




Al-Khwarizmi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khwarizmi). Algebra. Standard in Europe until the 16th century.

Geber (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Geber).

[Blake]

I think he may have been grandfathered in the Hebrew code. :lol

Hebrews 15:423 Verily I say unto you, if ye had diedeth before Christ had diedeth ye be ok. Woe unto thee born after 33 AD.

Maybe Angel can verify....

[Phenomanul]

you're confusing counsel with brainwashing. his act was very effective on you.
And apparently you can't tell the difference between being brainwashing and learning things out of your own accord.

Most of my 'apologetics' were honed at college... while I was away from home. But don't let that keep you from lying, or insulting my father. :rolleyes

Take your act to the troll forum, where you belong.

[MiamiHeat]

Yes, the first grandfather clause.
It's like traveling to another country. Just because you don't know all the rules doesn't mean that you can't be held accountable for those rules.

Thing is, I question the rules.

A Jew born in say 20 AD and living his life by the Hebrew code, firmly believing in God and doing the things he knows to do according to the Old Testament is still screwed if he dies sometime after 33 AD.....

If he had died around 32 AD, he would have been ok.

[Winehole23]

THE CURRENT STATE OF ISRAEL EXISTS BECAUSE JEWS BELIEVE, AND HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED, THAT Israel = THEIR PROMISED LAND.Some of the most conservative Jews do not.

[MiamiHeat]

Some of the most conservative Jews do not.

and some people believe Elvis is alive. Bible says what it says.

[clambake]

And apparently you can't tell the difference between being brainwashing and learning things out of your own accord.
yeah, thats what i woulda said.


Most of my 'apologetics' were honed at college... while I was away from home. But don't let that keep you from lying, or insulting my father.
actually, i'm commending him on his thoroughness.


Take your act to the troll forum, where you belong.

would i be likely to find demons bent on confusing mankind in the troll forum?

[BacktoBasics]

Provide:

1. A first hand account of an original document or text from the time of Jesus
2. Physical evidenceStill waiting for Pheno on this

I also want to point out that each time Pheno tells MH his points are unfounded, debunked or widely unaccepted he provides no counter-point to support his opposing view. ES did and MH stepped right back up and provided additional fuel to the argument...then ES never returned.

I'll listen to the sun god babble from both sides because it doesn't have a significant impact on my stance.

I see MH being accused of quoting or referencing biased sources. So I'd like Pheno to provide a source that doesn't support Christianity or Jesus but refutes the Sun God stance.

If Pheno can do that (with a reasonably credible source) this debate would be more interesting to me.

[BacktoBasics]

Originally Posted by Phenomanul

And apparently you can't tell the difference between being brainwashing and learning things out of your own accord.

This would be fitting

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee96/haywoodgiablomi/rollbarf.gif

[MiamiHeat]

Love Me Some Me first agreed with ES that the facts posted were 'false'

posted sources and explained further with several links with accurate info to prove it was true

Love Me Some Me changed his tune to "oh well, that doesn't mean anything anyway"

[I Love Me Some Me]

Love Me Some Me first agreed with ES that the facts posted were 'false'

posted sources and explained further with several links with accurate info to prove it was true

Love Me Some Me changed his tune to "oh well, that doesn't mean anything anyway"

:lol

When did that happen?

[MiamiHeat]

and now he conveniently forgot :lol

[smeagol]

Again, MH and B2B won the debate.

Why?

Because they say so!

[I Love Me Some Me]

and now he conveniently forgot :lol

Forgive me...it's only been 57 pages.

I think what I said about ES posts is that they were "compelling", but if that's not my exact wording then I apologize.

[DarkReign]

Reading about somewhere else, I happened upon this...

""Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly..."

-Isaac Asimov

[MiamiHeat]

oNzXsDvvFyk

1R1usMsYU3Q

5RDjd3XtRzA

[DarkReign]

Magicians?

Seriously?

[DarkReign]

On the contrary: European science got a much needed shove from islamic science, at the very beginning of the end of the dark ages.

Avicenna (http://www.iep.utm.edu/a/avicenna.htm) and Averroes (http://www.iep.utm.edu/i/ibnrushd.htm) - are basically responsible for transmitting Aristotle to the European continent as if for the first time.

Alhazen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7810846.stm). Optics.

Al-Khwarizmi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Khwarizmi). Algebra. Standard in Europe until the 16th century.

Geber (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Geber).


Ahh, thansk for that. Much reading to do.

[I Love Me Some Me]

Magicians?

Seriously?

He brings nothing to the table.

[BacktoBasics]

Again, smegma and Pheno won the debate.

Why?

Because they say so!

[MiamiHeat]

Ahh, thansk for that. Much reading to do.

Yes, you have a lot of reading to do. I deduced that from your first post. Try to keep quiet if you don't know what you are talking about in the future, please.

[MiamiHeat]

Magicians?

Seriously?

What's wrong with magicians? Jesus was one!

Anyway, you are a fool overall. Now you discredit the video because....they are magicians.

Who cares about the content of the video! What message?? THEY ARE MAGICIANS!!!


it's like every time you post, you swing and miss OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

i am done with you

[BacktoBasics]

Magicians?

Seriously?There's some interesting stuff in there.

Just like most advocates the thumper with a PHD wants to blend story with reality

[jack sommerset]

What's wrong with magicians? Jesus was one!

Anyway, you are a fool overall. Now you discredit the video because....they are magicians.

Who cares about the content of the video! What message?? THEY ARE MAGICIANS!!!


it's like every time you post, you swing and miss OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

i am done with you

Thats not what Jesus the Illusionist would do. Help him MH. He needs saving. Don't give up on him. They have been brainwashed there whole lives. Scared straight.

[TheIllusionist]

Thats not what Jesus the Illusionist would do. Help him MH. He needs saving. Don't give up on him. They have been brainwashed there whole lives. Scared straight.

I can save you.

[smeagol]

smegma?

That is fresh. I don't think I have ever heard it here. It appears you are the Christian because Egyptians before you have called me that. You are a myth :toast

In any case, I'm not here to win any kind of debate. I'm here to be convinced that Atheism is the way. I was an Atheist once, I guess I can be one again. But you guys have not convinced me at all. You have failed miserably.

Unless you can answer the question in a convincing manner, which you refuse to do (or maybe you are simply incapable of doing), I will remain a Christian.

[smeagol]

When you really want to bring the point home, bring Penn & Teller to the table.

If everything fails, you are bound to win any debate with them on your side . . .

How 'bout a bit from Bill Maher's stand up routine?

Hey, he is also one of the greatest philosophers of our age.

[smeagol]

Yes, you have a lot of reading to do. I deduced that from your first post. Try to keep quiet if you don't know what you are talking about in the future, please.

Interesting you have chosen DR, a proven atheist, to fight against in a God thread.

I'm waiting until you also allieanate BB.

You're on a roll . . .

[MiamiHeat]

Interesting you have chosen DR, a proven atheist, to fight against in a God thread.

I'm waiting until you also allieanate BB.

You're on a roll . . .


He is a heathen just like you. Neither of you follow the Truth and the Life, Osiris-Re.

I will pray for you.

[smeagol]

your dad really fucked you up.

It is sad you need to take this discussion to such personal levels.

[smeagol]

He is a heathen just like you. Neither of you follow the Truth and the Life, Osiris-Re.

I will pray for you.

So now you have become what you despise the most. A stupid, unfunny troll.

[MiamiHeat]

So now you have become what you despise the most. A stupid, unfunny troll.

Spoken like a true hypocrite. Nothing you have said will change the fact that I believe in the Truth, Osiris-Re. I remain unchanged.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

So, just for the record, how many of you religious types believe that:

1) the earth is about 8600 years old (as would be the case if the Bible were a literal document)?

2) that Intelligent Design should be included in science classes?

[smeagol]

You know, I was reading about the Enlightenment period and stumbled upon a pretty good assertion.

Islam has inherent advantaged over Christianity from its youth alone. Islam is not old enough to have ever claimed the formation of Earth and the universe, hasnt been around as long to suppress scientific advancement to only later concede its finer points and provable facts.

Islam only deals in the items of existence which are not provable, thus rendering it unassailable by reasoned minds.

Obviously, I have never read the Quran so I cant say with absolutism that this is true, but if the Quran makes no such claims of creation, I would find this idea intriguing.

Islam is an offspring of Christianity.

[smeagol]

So, just for the record, how many of you religious types believe that:

1) the earth is about 8600 years old (as would be the case if the Bible were a literal document)?

2) that Intelligent Design should be included in science classes?

No and No.

[smeagol]

Spoken like a true hypocrite.


Spoken like a true imbecile



Nothing you have said will change the fact that I believe in the Truth, Osiris-Re. I remain unchanged.

Maybe you should start posting long extracts of books. If you are lucky, B2B will start a thread about your troll powers.

[MiamiHeat]

Spoken like a true imbecile

Spoken like a true simpleton





Maybe you should start posting long extracts of books. If you are lucky, B2B will start a thread about your troll powers.

Once again, you have proven nothing. Praise to Osiris.

My religion is older than your fake one.

[smeagol]

Once again, you have proven nothing.


I have proven as much as you . . . nothing.

The difference is you came into this thread with the intention of proving how fake Christianity is and you have failed . . . miserably, I should add.

[MiamiHeat]

My faith is unshaken. My religion is older than yours. You can do nothing to change that fact.

[Phenomanul]

Still waiting for Pheno on this

I never realized you posed this series of questions with an ultimatum affixed to them. I mean you were so giddy at the thought that deriding an honest grammatical error of mine actually meant something.

Besides, who can keep up with all the pages? Particularly when the trolls have interjected the thread with one liner tangential posts of their own... posts that have only derailed the thread.


I also want to point out that each time Pheno tells MH his points are unfounded, debunked or widely unaccepted he provides no counter-point to support his opposing view.

As much as I like learning, I clearly haven't claimed, to know everything. I never have. I do however, tend to post straight from my own knowledgebase as I'm not accustomed to letting random websites make arguments on my behalf - It's simply not my style Having said that, much of my knowledgebase was accrued at the University and from reading several books in my collection.

Half of what MH said concerning Egyptian mythology is cleverly masked at its source, but is nevertheless intentionally deceitful. It was not how I learned it. I'm pretty sure few here have taken a hieroglyphics or an Egyptian History course, much less understand the context of how the symbols, and coptic writtings are related to the culture, the social customs, and the royal eccentricities of the time. In short, if what MH says were true, I'm pretty sure it would have been covered extensively by Professor Jed Buchwald (a MacArthur Fellow who taught the joint Harvard/MIT class at the time). The parallelisms between Egyptian mythology and the Christ role that MH's sources are alluding to are either non-existent, or simply less relevant than what they are making them out to be.



ES did and MH stepped right back up and provided additional fuel to the argument...then ES never returned.

Maybe Extra Stout, realized that MH, much like yourself were not really interested in debating. Frankly, I don't blame him.

This entire discussion has been rather incoherent and lacks the necessary respect from your camp to even bother putting in the effort. Phrases like, "I have irrefutable proof!!!" and "Christians are stupid for believing in GOD" Don't serve but to alienate any semblance of true discussion.

And that's not to say we aren't listening either... I've incorporated arguments and sharpened my own knowledgebase from arguments on this very forum (as well as other venues). People such as Extra Stout, FromWayDowntown, scott, whottt, DarkReign, and smeagol have allowed me to reassess certain positions based on the logical constructs of their arguments. My ego is not that great that I can't admit to that. Our disagreements however were civil and respectful (not so much with whottt :lmao).

You and MiamiHeat (among others) however, have continually disrespected the basic premise behind our approach. I'm sorry but that simply doesn't cut it.



I'll listen to the sun god babble from both sides because it doesn't have a significant impact on my stance.

I see MH being accused of quoting or referencing biased sources. So I'd like Pheno to provide a source that doesn't support Christianity or Jesus but refutes the Sun God stance.

If Pheno can do that (with a reasonably credible source) this debate would be more interesting to me.

Read The Case for the Real Jesus by Lee Strobel.

[MiamiHeat]

Half of what MH said concerning Egyptian mythology is cleverly masked at its source, but is nevertheless intentionally deceitful. It was not how I learned it. I'm pretty sure few here have taken a hieroglyphics or an Egyptian History course, much less understand the context of how the symbols, and coptic writtings are related to the culture, the social customs, and the royal eccentricities of the time. In short, if what MH says were true, I'm pretty sure it would have been covered extensively by Professor Jed Buchwald (a MacArthur Fellow who taught the joint Harvard/MIT class at the time). The parallelisms between Egyptian mythology and the Christ role that MH's sources are alluding to are either non-existent, or simply less relevant than what they are making them out to be.
.

Your rebuttal of the facts provided in this thread is

"Jed Buchwald, a professor at MIT/Harvard, never really brought it up"


Think about that for a second, braniac. There are -several- errors in your line of reasoning.

and THIS is the rebuttal ?

I provide sources and facts and you say "Oh, some professor never really talked about it" as some sort of rebuttal??!

oh no i am laughing. really.



I'm pretty sure few here have taken a hieroglyphics or an Egyptian History course, much less understand the context of how the symbols, and coptic writtings are related to the culture, the social customs, and the royal eccentricities of the time.

That's why we rely on accepted translations from those who DO study it.

You don't know Hebrew or Greek, yet you have no problem accepting those translations. Suddenly, because we don't know how to read egyptian texts first hand, all translations are dismissed?

Clearly, the level of stupidity in this thread is rising. If I show contempt towards you, it's because I do have contempt towards you.

Try to be less biased, please.

[td4mvp21]

So, just for the record, how many of you religious types believe that:

1) the earth is about 8600 years old (as would be the case if the Bible were a literal document)?

2) that Intelligent Design should be included in science classes?

1. No idea. I'm not sure if creation as it is in the Bible is literal or metaphoric.

2. I think it should be an elective that is separate from your typical science class and not required for graduation (speaking in terms of high school). I know a lot of people would have taken it (myself included) if it were available at my high school. On the contrary, I wish I would have been taught the theory of evolution growing up. I went to a private school from 1st-8th grade and never learned a bit about it except the typical generalizations. Then, I took biology in 9th grade and I really do not remember the teacher going over the theory of it. I never took biology again after that. I know next to nothing about it.

I do know a handful of Christians (a small handful) who believe in evolution as well as the Christian God. I believe C.S. Lewis does if I remember correctly but I wouldn't quote me on it.

[MiamiHeat]

Maybe Extra Stout, realized that MH, much like yourself were not really interested in debating. Frankly, I don't blame him.

It went a little something like this :

1) The argument is posted. Jesus myth not original, etc etc

2) Extra Stout quotes me and goes point by point saying things like "false" and "fabrication"

3) Love Me Some Me and others are very happy. Woo! Extra Stout said they are false!

4) Facts, sources posted to prove the argument is true. Extra Stout slapped in the mouth and proven wrong.

5) Love Me Some Me changes his tune. From "none of those things are true!" to "Oh, well, it doesn't matter anyway. I am not interested in x, i am only interested in x"

6) 54 pages later....

7) Phenomonaul or whatever your name is comes in the thread. "Your posts all suck! I don't see any debate here, no arguments provided!"


Yeah, by now it's almost over with. Go scroll back and read about it you bum.

[Phenomanul]

Your rebuttal of the facts provided in this thread is

"Jed Buchwald, a professor at MIT/Harvard, never really brought it up"


Think about that for a second, braniac. There are -several- errors in your line of reasoning.

and THIS is the rebuttal ?

I provide sources and facts and you say "Oh, some professor never really talked about it" as some sort of rebuttal??!

oh no i am laughing. really.

Really??? How blinded have you become by your atheistic agenda?

Not only did He not mention it.

Neither did any of our 8 course textbooks... especially a 400 page textbook whose sole focus was Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythologies. Neither did any of the Egyptian Muslim students... I mean, could you imagine if Islam attempted to debunk the JESUS figure by simply claiming he was copied from an ancient Egyptian myth? That would squash all dissention quickly. They would have put that argument to rest centuries ago. Well before the crusades, and well before so many lives were lost. We would have avoided all this unnecessary strife. The fact of the matter is that your sources are lying to you. You've been duped.

I have an appointment. I'll be back later.

[Phenomanul]

It went a little something like this :

1) The argument is posted. Jesus myth not original, etc etc

2) Extra Stout quotes me and goes point by point saying things like "false" and "fabrication"

3) Love Me Some Me and others are very happy. Woo! Extra Stout said they are false!

4) Facts, sources posted to prove the argument is true. Extra Stout slapped in the mouth and proven wrong.

5) Love Me Some Me changes his tune. From "none of those things are true!" to "Oh, well, it doesn't matter anyway. I am not interested in x, i am only interested in x"

6) 54 pages later....

7) Phenomonaul or whatever your name is comes in the thread. "Your posts all suck! I don't see any debate here, no arguments provided!"


Yeah, by now it's almost over with. Go scroll back and read about it you bum.

Really?? I entered the argument at page 50 something?

This argument has been going on well before you became a member.

Not to mention the fact that I actually entered this discussion shortly after Extra Stout's first post.

Anyways, later.

[MiamiHeat]

Really??? How blinded have you become by your atheistic agenda?

Not only did He not mention it.

Neither did any of our 8 course textbooks... especially a 400 page textbook whose sole focus was Egyptian and Mesopotamian mythologies. Neither did any of the Egyptian Muslim students... I mean, could you imagine if Islam attempted to debunk the JESUS figure by simply claiming he was copied from an ancient Egyptian myth? That would squash all dissention quickly. They would have put that argument to rest centuries ago. Well before the crusades, and well before so many lives were lost. We would have avoided all this unnecessary strife. The fact of the matter is that your sources are lying to you. You've been duped.

I have an appointment. I'll be back later.

really, your ignorance knows no bounds.


Go read about the Rosetta Stone, discovered in 1799. It was discovered recently, braniac. How exactly did you want anyone to stop the crusades?

[MiamiHeat]

Really?? I entered the argument at page 50 something?

This argument has been going on well before you became a member.

Not to mention the fact that I actually entered this discussion shortly after Extra Stout's first post.

Anyways, later.

Ah, so you read his BULLSHIT without any facts to back it up and then you said "yay!" and ran away.


The argument has been validated with facts and believers have been relegated to just arguing if it matters that jesus is not original.

[Phenomanul]

really, your ignorance knows no bounds.


Go read about the Rosetta Stone, discovered in 1799. It was discovered recently, braniac. How exactly did you want anyone to stop the crusades?

Wow that was easy!

I didn't realize you would fall so quickly.

If the key to deciphering hieroglyphs was only "recently" discovered how did a society 2,000 years ago even know about Egyptian Myths that orginated about 3,000 years before their own time? How did they manage to presumably steal "so many elements" from a myth they couldn't even read or understand? How did 12 humble fishermen even manage to do this? And if it were common knowledge to the Hebrews how come allusions to these myths aren't found in the Hebrew canon?

Thanks for playing.

Don't load your gun too quickly or it may backfire.

Next you're going to try and convince us that King David didn't exist.

Ok, now I really have to go.

[clambake]

how do you know the bible wasn't written by demons bent on confusing mankind?