Stock market tanking

[CosmicCowboy]

Down 3.5% and back in the 7's...

sheeeeeut!

[MiamiHeat]

whoopie

[FreeMason]

B/C Wall Street knows this administration and treasury will fuck things up even worse.

[DarrinS]

Uh, didn't it tank late last year when I lost one third of my 401k?

[CosmicCowboy]

Uh, didn't it tank late last year when I lost one third of my 401k?

You are about to lose another third too.

[CosmicCowboy]

down 4% and still dropping

[CosmicCowboy]

I've got a feeling we are gonna test the recent bottom this week...(7,392.27)

[EricB]

The other stock market thread wasn't good enough?

[CosmicCowboy]

The other stock market thread wasn't good enough?

Who made you junior forum cop?

[EricB]

Sequ is out shopping for lifts today.

[jackseven]

Think 5500 by October.

[Obstructed_View]

You guys didn't realize that change meant the amount of money you'd end up with.

[clambake]

cleaning up after that last guy is no easy business.

[EricB]

You guys didn't realize that change meant the amount of money you'd end up with.


:lol

Nice

[jack sommerset]

cleaning up after that last guy is no easy business.

Sooooooooooooooooooooo GAY

[Wild Cobra]

Look at how much it has dropped since after the November 2006 elections and the democrats changed some market rules starting in the summer of 2006, and fear of what the democrats will still do... It's dropped harder since the Housing lenders bubble burst, and will drop even more with Obama's policies and fears generated into the markets.

Can you say Dow at 6000?

http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=%5EDJI&t=5y&q=l&l=on&z=m&c=%5EDJI&a=v&p=s

[ChumpDumper]

Look at how much it has dropped since after the November 2006 elections and the democrats changed some market rules starting in the summer of 2006, and fear of what the democrats will still do... It's dropped harder since the Housing lenders bubble burst, and will drop even more with Obama's policies and fears generated into the markets.

Can you say Dow at 6000?

http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=%5EDJI&t=5y&q=l&l=on&z=m&c=%5EDJI&a=v&p=sHow did the Democrats change the market rules in the summer of 2006 when they didn't have control of congress until January of 2007?

[Mark in Austin]

How did the Democrats change the market rules in the summer of 2006 when they didn't have control of congress until January of 2007?



errr... Jedi Mind Trick?

[jman3000]

This will be a "no big word zone"... please wait.

[alamo50]

"Yes we can"!

[EricB]

"Yes we can"!

It'll take more than repeating slogans.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Look at how much it has dropped since after the November 2006 elections and the democrats changed some market rules starting in the summer of 2006, and fear of what the democrats will still do... It's dropped harder since the Housing lenders bubble burst, and will drop even more with Obama's policies and fears generated into the markets.

Can you say Dow at 6000?

Oh yeah, it's all about the Democrats and nothing to do with institutions running wild and repackaging debt into equities no-one understands, or the general trend of people borrowing far beyond their means to repay. :rolleyes

You are such a fool for framing everything in black vs white political terms - this is a societal over-consumption problem, and a problem with a political-economic structure that focuses entirely on the short-term and rewards gambling by financiers. To couch it in DvsR terms is naive.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

How did the Democrats change the market rules in the summer of 2006 when they didn't have control of congress until January of 2007?
kinda like how the stock market was affected today when the "stimulus" bill wasn't signed into law by obama today.

[ChumpDumper]

kinda like how the stock market was affected today when the "stimulus" bill wasn't signed into law by obama today.No, not like that at all.

You're really bad at this.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

No, not like that at all.

You're really bad at this.
whatever you say, bernanke.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

i forgot. i lost.

[ChumpDumper]

whatever you say, bernanke.It's not my problem you can't come up with anything coherent.

[Al Gore]

Oh yeah, it's all about the Democrats and nothing to do with institutions running wild and repackaging debt into equities no-one understands, or the general trend of people borrowing far beyond their means to repay. :rolleyes

You are such a fool for framing everything in black vs white political terms - this is a societal over-consumption problem, and a problem with a political-economic structure that focuses entirely on the short-term and rewards gambling by financiers. To couch it in DvsR terms is naive.


You left out the part where you went to school for 4 years studying this very subject! :tu

[S_A_Longhorn]

Who cares. Talk to me in 40 years please.

[smeagol]

Things are not looking good for stocks. The only way to make money is with short term opportunistic trades . . .

[CubanMustGo]

Things are not looking good for stocks. The only way to make money is with short term opportunistic trades . . .

Or shorting.

[Wild Cobra]

How did the Democrats change the market rules in the summer of 2006 when they didn't have control of congress until January of 2007?

My typo. Thanks for finding it. Summer of 2007. It has to do with the "up-tick" rule.

[ChumpDumper]

My typo. Thanks for finding it. Summer of 2007. It has to do with the "up-tick" rule.The SEC eliminated the uptick rule -- not congress.

[MannyIsGod]

Things are not looking good for stocks. The only way to make money is with short term opportunistic trades . . .

So you don't believe the market is ever going back up again?

[Dude]

Funny how Bush and haliburton don't seem to be losing any money.

[EricB]

Funny how Bush and haliburton don't seem to be losing any money.


Link?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

You left out the part where you went to school for 4 years studying this very subject! :tu

Yeah, and I should be ashamed about knowing my subject and trying to educate others, or correcting the bullshit spread by people who know nothing about the subject. :rolleyes

[Homeland Security]

You little people didn't think you were going to pay for electing that liberal?

[S_A_Longhorn]

You little people didn't think you were going to pay for electing that liberal?

All the bank failures were under Bush's watch. Those unemployment numbers were there before Obama too.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, and I should be ashamed about knowing my subject and trying to educate others, or correcting the bullshit spread by people who know nothing about the subject. :rolleyes

You know, you need to buy a shirt with a big ass red button on it.

[Wild Cobra]

The SEC eliminated the uptick rule -- not congress.
I know, but since everyone is blaming president Bush for everything, I thought I would throw on on congress. Besides, they could change the law directly with the presidents signature. Why don't they?

[CosmicCowboy]

This is not a Republican or Democratic issue when it comes to placing blame. They all have betrayed us.

This is not a recession. The is a resetting of the economy to a realistic level that is not driven by easy and unsustainable credit.

Any attempt by the Federal government to "cure" it with a fake "stimulus" plan will only make it worse. This pork laden bill coming put of congress is a complete blasphemy. I am absolutely disgusted with all of them.

[ChumpDumper]

I know, but since everyone is blaming president Bush for everything, I thought I would throw on on congress.So you thought you would just lie about who was responsible for that particular rule change. It must really be difficult for you to find anything for which the Bush administration wasn't responsible.


Besides, they could change the law directly with the presidents signature. Why don't they?There is quite a debate about that right now. It will probably return in some modified form.

[ChumpDumper]

This is not a Republican or Democratic issue when it comes to placing blame. They all have betrayed us.Fair enough, though I would say none of them were smart enough to see what was happening.


This is not a recession. The is a resetting of the economy to a realistic level that is not driven by easy and unsustainable credit.Well, it is a recession, but probably a necessary one for the reasons you stated.

[Sportcamper]

Dow...7,293.75 -172.20 ...

[CosmicCowboy]

The fed is gonna have to take over Citi and BoA. They are toast.

[DarkReign]

The fed is gonna have to take over Citi and BoA. They are toast.

About fucking time. I want the dominoes to fall already and get this shit storm started so it can end some time sooner than 10-15 years.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

This is not a Republican or Democratic issue when it comes to placing blame. They all have betrayed us.

This is not a recession. The is a resetting of the economy to a realistic level that is not driven by easy and unsustainable credit.

Any attempt by the Federal government to "cure" it with a fake "stimulus" plan will only make it worse. This pork laden bill coming put of congress is a complete blasphemy. I am absolutely disgusted with all of them.

Spot on. All that fake value in the market is being flushed out, and about time.

[LockBeard]

Also, this is the government restructuring the country while trying to gain as much control and power during this great opportunity as they can.

This country is led by thieves and traitors.

[Leetonidas]

New World Order! Oh noes!

[CosmicCowboy]

When I heard the bullshit the administration people were spewing Saturday I knew the market was gonna take a crap today...investors have lost all faith in this administrations ability to govern rationally.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Dow in the 6's before it closes today.

[balli]

You stupid motherfuckers. Almost every single credible economist in the nation is conceding that nationalization is about our only option. The banks are fucking insolvent people. Do you not fucking get that? God, you fucking republicans are so fucking dumb. Fuck!

[CosmicCowboy]

You stupid motherfuckers. Almost every single credible economist in the nation is conceding that nationalization is about our only option. The banks are fucking insolvent people. Do you not fucking get that? God, you fucking republicans are so fucking dumb. Fuck!

who's the stupid motherfucker? Obamas idiots are saying they AREN'T gonna nationalize. They are just gonna keep pumping in good money after bad.

Of course Citi and BoA are insolvent. I say shut the damn things down, pay off the depositors and put their asses in bankruptcy and let the creditors fight over the scraps.

[BacktoBasics]

Of course Citi and BoA are insolvent. I say shut the damn things down, pay off the depositors and put their asses in bankruptcy and let the creditors fight over the scraps.This is really what I can't understand. Why the fuck can't we just let the banks go already....when is enough enough.

[DarkReign]

This is really what I can't understand. Why the fuck can't we just let the banks go already....when is enough enough.

...when election cycles arent determined by looks/race/gender.

Politicians of the day are scared shitless for their jobs, so theyll do and say anything in an attempt to look like they did something for re-election purposes.

Just my opinion. The right thing to do is the least politically advantageous...therefore it doesnt get real consideration. Congress has an albatross around its neck right now and theyll pass anything in an attempt to ring it around someone else's.

I think thats treasonous, but what the fuck do I know? No, instead lets promise trillions of future revenue backing a broken banking system. Yeah, thats going to change everything, Im sure.

Bankruptcy, severe recession, mild to high inflation...right into equilibrium and stability in less than 5 years.

No, stupid idea. We need BoA and Citi, dont you know? Too big to fail!

More like "too high a cliff politically". It all comes down to transparency and frankly, no one (save Ron Paul) is willing to admit we're straight fucked. I truly dont understand their rationale in all this...it would seem their current course of action is a far worse fate politically speaking than the alternative.

But they either a) dont know any better, b) do know but wont take the risk or c) do know and dont give a shit.

Odd to say the least.

[Extra Stout]

I see all this ending in a couple of decades with the implosion of the U.S. government due to insolvency, and the beginning of bloody, devastating wars between the successor states over control of resources (though the leaders on each side will sell the wars as settling scores against the "traitors" who "caused" the collapse).

[baseline bum]

...when election cycles arent determined by looks/race/gender.

Politicians of the day are scared shitless for their jobs, so theyll do and say anything in an attempt to look like they did something for re-election purposes.

Just my opinion. The right thing to do is the least politically advantageous...therefore it doesnt get real consideration. Congress has an albatross around its neck right now and theyll pass anything in an attempt to ring it around someone else's.

I think thats treasonous, but what the fuck do I know? No, instead lets promise trillions of future revenue backing a broken banking system. Yeah, thats going to change everything, Im sure.

Bankruptcy, severe recession, mild to high inflation...right into equilibrium and stability in less than 5 years.

No, stupid idea. We need BoA and Citi, dont you know? Too big to fail!

More like "too high a cliff politically". It all comes down to transparency and frankly, no one (save Ron Paul) is willing to admit we're straight fucked. I truly dont understand their rationale in all this...it would seem their current course of action is a far worse fate politically speaking than the alternative.

But they either a) dont know any better, b) do know but wont take the risk or c) do know and dont give a shit.

Odd to say the least.

This nation has been all about the short term with no regard for the consequences for 30 years. Why would it ever change now?

[smeagol]

Yesterday I bought S&P calls . . . :depressed

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I cannot believe how fucking stupid people are. The Glass-Steagal Act essentially prevented banks from speculating in the stock market. When it was repealed in a bipartisan 10:1 margin in 1999 it opened the door for banks to once again speculate. As a result, we saw dividend ratios skyrocket because a whole new sector of demand entered the market.

Well now that the banks have gone to shit that entire sector of demand is gone. What happens when demand drops? Thats right morons, the price drops.

Seeing that both parties passed the repeal by a 10:1 margin you are essentially being stupid and allowing party positioning rule what you think is true. Here is a hint, if a politician or their mouthpieces like Miller or Hannity claim something then try and find a different source.

[MannyIsGod]

who's the stupid motherfucker? Obamas idiots are saying they AREN'T gonna nationalize. They are just gonna keep pumping in good money after bad.

Of course Citi and BoA are insolvent. I say shut the damn things down, pay off the depositors and put their asses in bankruptcy and let the creditors fight over the scraps.


This is really what I can't understand. Why the fuck can't we just let the banks go already....when is enough enough.

Did you guys not see what happend when they let Lehman go down? Letting Citi or BoA - who are both much larger than Lehman - fail in that manner is simply not an option unless you want to see the world financial systems simply disintigrate.

I wish they would nationalize and I think the administration is throwing money away because its the inevitable end. But letting the banks fail is not even a realistic option.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I see all this ending in a couple of decades with the implosion of the U.S. government due to insolvency, and the beginning of bloody, devastating wars between the successor states over control of resources (though the leaders on each side will sell the wars as settling scores against the "traitors" who "caused" the collapse).


My son and I will join up when we pursue an anti-california agenda.

Arizona Bay.

[angrydude]

You stupid motherfuckers. Almost every single credible economist in the nation is conceding that nationalization is about our only option. The banks are fucking insolvent people. Do you not fucking get that? God, you fucking republicans are so fucking dumb. Fuck!



Well, since hardly one of those "credible economists" predicted this fiasco and most of them applauded while the FED sold this country's future to china, I'd say most of these "credible economists" are RETARDED and don't know their head from their assholes.

Any "credible economist" who concedes nationalization, IE the government getting in the way of the natural cycle of the economy, is a complete and utter dumbass.

The very fact that Hilary Clinton had to go and BEG the Chinese not to throw our country under the bus tells me something is wrong with the conventional wisdom of the mainstream economist's handling of the economy.

They do love their monetary policy though and they'll be damned if they're proven wrong now.

[angrydude]

Did you guys not see what happend when they let Lehman go down? Letting Citi or BoA - who are both much larger than Lehman - fail in that manner is simply not an option unless you want to see the world financial systems simply disintigrate.

I wish they would nationalize and I think the administration is throwing money away because its the inevitable end. But letting the banks fail is not even a realistic option.


By pursuing this course of action they are ensuring that the entire economy disintegrates a couple years down the road. I give it at most 8 years until we have to do this all over again. Will the world be so generous then?

The problem with Russian roulette is it all seems like harmless fun till you blow your face off.

Money is freaking paper. That's all it is. This bailout changes nothing. Our system is still unsustainable. The fact that the Chinese are only buying treasuries because they don't have anywhere else to put their money should send shivers down your spine. What happens when they do find a reasonable alternative?

Goodbye good times.

[WARRIORNATION]

Blame Obama for the plunging Dow. The people on Wallstreet have no confidence in Obama's economic policies.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I cannot believe how fucking stupid people are. The Glass-Steagal Act essentially prevented banks from speculating in the stock market. When it was repealed in a bipartisan 10:1 margin in 1999 it opened the door for banks to once again speculate. As a result, we saw dividend ratios skyrocket because a whole new sector of demand entered the market.

Well now that the banks have gone to shit that entire sector of demand is gone. What happens when demand drops? Thats right morons, the price drops.

Seeing that both parties passed the repeal by a 10:1 margin you are essentially being stupid and allowing party positioning rule what you think is true. Here is a hint, if a politician or their mouthpieces like Miller or Hannity claim something then try and find a different source.

The above post is for you. Moron.

Blame Obama for the plunging Dow. The people on Wallstreet have no confidence in Obama's economic policies.

[TDMVPDPOY]

looks like AIG cant handle it if all the banks go broke....

might as well withdrawal all funds and pull a runner....

[TDMVPDPOY]

Lol should invest into gold stocks, supermarket stocks, energy provider stocks and maybe communication service provider stocks......these are the guys look like immune to all this shit, cause they provide alot of everyday basic human needs.....and ppl will just continue to spend there...

back to the insolvent companys....no point in pumpin more money in nationalizing these tools when they still have incompetent people running the business on the board or any level of management. why buy back debt of infrastructure when they have devalued so much and not makn a profit at all....

[Sportcamper]

I wonder how many supporters of “Bail out Nation” ever even heard of Lehman Bros before their collapse brought on by their reckless behavior….

[LockBeard]

You stupid motherfuckers. Almost every single credible economist in the nation is conceding that nationalization is about our only option. The banks are fucking insolvent people. Do you not fucking get that? God, you fucking republicans are so fucking dumb. Fuck!

Such passion and on such the wrong path. It's a shame.

[WARRIORNATION]

The above post is for you. Moron.

Fuck you , dipshit!:ihit

[CosmicCowboy]

Damn. Dropping like a rock. Down 2%+ in the first 30 minutes to 6900. :wow

[TDMVPDPOY]

Did you guys not see what happend when they let Lehman go down? Letting Citi or BoA - who are both much larger than Lehman - fail in that manner is simply not an option unless you want to see the world financial systems simply disintigrate.

I wish they would nationalize and I think the administration is throwing money away because its the inevitable end. But letting the banks fail is not even a realistic option.

There is no such thing as too big to fail, look at the collapse of companys during the last 15yrs who were trading while insolvent till caught. Its fukn simple, let the bad eggs disintegrate in the market. Only the successful company's with good books will come in and expand taking over the bad eggs market share. Govt can always imposed stricter regulation guide lines, for these new players so it wont happen again down the road.

Reason why i see the govt wont allow AIG + BOA to go bankrupt cause they already have a huge share in those company's invested so much bail out money now worth nothing, geared with the decreasing value of backed assets. IMO they should pull out and sell up their share and invest in a company thats going to absorb the take-over market share of these so called bad eggs.

im surprised the US$ is not deflated towards other currencies....all the govt is doing printing money nothin else.

[clambake]

if we let these banks fail, it's over.

[TDMVPDPOY]

if we let these banks fail, it's over.

there has to be at leasts a few small banks doing well...i say ppl should start pulling out their funds and depositing it into these banks to build up reserves and equity, with govt backed up buyin a share nationalizing a bank that currently has no debt on its books. These small banks will just take up market share and start expanding and employing people.....

[clambake]

there has to be at leasts a few small banks doing well...i say ppl should start pulling out their funds and depositing it into these banks to build up reserves and equity, with govt backed up buyin a share nationalizing a bank that currently has no debt on its books. These small banks will just take up market share and start expanding and employing people.....

small banks can't provide the huge, daily operating cost required by large corps.

you have to focus on the big picture.

and by the time the govt. could back some of these banks, these companies would have already flatlined.

[TDMVPDPOY]

small banks can't provide the huge, daily operating cost required by large corps.

you have to focus on the big picture.

and by the time the govt. could back some of these banks, these companies would have already flatlined.

these smaller banks will have leverage as compared to the big banks like BOA. The small guy can just barrow from the fed interest free for a couple of years and build up the business expansion.....while banks like BOA will still have debts on its books where it will probably not see any of it when debts are due and the foreseen provision of doubtful debts/foreclosures increasing, hence who knows if BOA can meet its own creditors when debts are due.

while the small bank is cash strapped from its reserves and continue to expand as more deposits/capital raising come in, the small bank first of must have no creditors on its books or have a small debt to equity ratio to make this work. This small successful bank will be the new nationalize/central bank watever you wanna call it.

[RandomGuy]

I see all this ending in a couple of decades with the implosion of the U.S. government due to insolvency, and the beginning of bloody, devastating wars between the successor states over control of resources (though the leaders on each side will sell the wars as settling scores against the "traitors" who "caused" the collapse).

Erg. Coming from you that is just credible enough to be scary. I am a bit more of an optimist than that, but don't dismiss the possiblity out of hand.

Solution for avoiding this?

[Extra Stout]

Erg. Coming from you that is just credible enough to be scary. I am a bit more of an optimist than that, but don't dismiss the possiblity out of hand.

Solution for avoiding this?
Once you've jumped out of the plane, it's too late to fix the parachute.

[RandomGuy]

Once you've jumped out of the plane, it's too late to fix the parachute.

Head for the hills then.

You suck man. I was just fine until reading that post. :depressed

Seriously, I don't quite think it will get to that. Let's hope I am right about that.

Still, it doesn't hurt to learn a bit about farming though...

[Spurminator]

Any recommendations on where to move?

[CosmicCowboy]

6,763.29 Down 299.64 (4.24%)

Crap. Market seems to have lost all faith in "change". I'm hearing some heavy hitter economists now talking about a bottom at 5000 or lower.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Still, it doesn't hurt to learn a bit about farming though...

i was listening to some economists, he thinks thats where the money is and big bucks coming in....

[smeagol]

Man, I predicted dow at 7,500 when it was back at 10,000.

Boy was I wrong!

[clambake]

6,763.29 Down 299.64 (4.24%)

Crap. Market seems to have lost all faith in "change". I'm hearing some heavy hitter economists now talking about a bottom at 5000 or lower.

this is the talk from dec.

july is the month to target date, and unemployment % is the target.

[CosmicCowboy]

this is the talk from dec.

july is the month to target date, and unemployment % is the target.

Did Ducks change his name?

[RandomGuy]

Any recommendations on where to move?

The biggest killer in wars isn't actual gunfire.

It is starvation, and diseases associated with overcrowding in refugee camps.

I would move someplace either near some marginal farmland, or waaaay out in the country where population densities are low.

Canada would be a good place to start.

Personally I would simply move out to some very very isolated spot that offered good sources of renewable power like wind and/or solar, along with some marginal water supply. A good hilltop in Wyoming/montana/dakotas.

I would start building a very very very large water storage tank, preferably underground, and slowly fill it with fresh water, along with a pretty decent sized greenhouse. Perhaps several large underground cisterns.

Keep the whole operation as simple and low-tech as possible.

[RandomGuy]

6,763.29 Down 299.64 (4.24%)

Crap. Market seems to have lost all faith in "change". I'm hearing some heavy hitter economists now talking about a bottom at 5000 or lower.

Translation:

"I don't like Democrats, and will fully blame Obama for everything bad, and not credit him for anything good, despite any evidence to the contrary."

Well, at least we all know where you stand on any given topic. Input issue, blame/credit Democrats in any way that makes them look most bad or least good.

[TDMVPDPOY]

The biggest killer in wars isn't actual gunfire.

It is starvation, and diseases associated with overcrowding in refugee camps.

I would move someplace either near some marginal farmland, or waaaay out in the country where population densities are low.

Canada would be a good place to start.

Personally I would simply move out to some very very isolated spot that offered good sources of renewable power like wind and/or solar, along with some marginal water supply. A good hilltop in Wyoming/montana/dakotas.

I would start building a very very very large water storage tank, preferably underground, and slowly fill it with fresh water, along with a pretty decent sized greenhouse. Perhaps several large underground cisterns.

Keep the whole operation as simple and low-tech as possible.

seems like a marijuana operation here biatch

[Spurminator]

Personally I would simply move out to some very very isolated spot that offered good sources of renewable power like wind and/or solar, along with some marginal water supply. A good hilltop in Wyoming/montana/dakotas.

I would start building a very very very large water storage tank, preferably underground, and slowly fill it with fresh water, along with a pretty decent sized greenhouse. Perhaps several large underground cisterns.

Keep the whole operation as simple and low-tech as possible.

Do they get satellite TV out there? I can't miss an episode of Rock of Love.

[RandomGuy]

seems like a marijuana operation here biatch

That was actually what occurred to me as I was typing it.

Oddly enough marijuana/hemp plants seem to have a bazillion industrial usages, so as soon as the ballon goes up, I would be sure to have a good supply of just those kinds of seeds.

Sell a small amount of smokeable stuff to the locals, and use the rest for oil, fibers, and whatever else the things make. God knows there are enough websites and books on the topic, it wouldn't be too hard to research and do well.

[leemajors]

Do they get satellite TV out there? I can't miss an episode of Rock of Love.

the last one started out so promising, then got really bad. why couldn't the white trash games last the whole episode?

[RandomGuy]

Do they get satellite TV out there? I can't miss an episode of Rock of Love.

That is the beauty of satellite TV. Except that plasma screen TV's use as much, if not more, electricity than most refridgerators.

A small, old fashioned tube set would be more in line with what the generating capacity could actually power, unless you had some BIG wind turbines.

[CosmicCowboy]

Translation:

"I don't like Democrats, and will fully blame Obama for everything bad, and not credit him for anything good, despite any evidence to the contrary."

Well, at least we all know where you stand on any given topic. Input issue, blame/credit Democrats in any way that makes them look most bad or least good.

Doesn't need a translation. Blatant socialist policies are not going to reassure a jittery financial system. When and if Obama ever does anything worthy of praise I will be the first to give him props. Hasn't happened yet.

[TDMVPDPOY]

That is the beauty of satellite TV. Except that plasma screen TV's use as much, if not more, electricity than most refridgerators.

A small, old fashioned tube set would be more in line with what the generating capacity could actually power, unless you had some BIG wind turbines.

use a bong as a steam generator......:hat

[TDMVPDPOY]

Any recommendations on where to move?

move to a shit country with a shit currency against the US dollar....and live it out like a king for a couple of years till it recovers....

[clambake]

Doesn't need a translation. Blatant socialist policies are not going to reassure a jittery financial system. When and if Obama ever does anything worthy of praise I will be the first to give him props. Hasn't happened yet.

another weak attempt to appear open minded. you should stick to "pretend cowboy" antics.

[CosmicCowboy]

"pretend cowboy" antics? WTF?

[Chief]

can't believe you idiots are blaming this on obama, lol

stupid republicans.

[CosmicCowboy]

can't believe you idiots are blaming this on obama, lol

stupid republicans.

I can't believe that you guys think it has nothing to do with him.

The stock market was at 12,000 when it was clear he was about to be the next President.

It was still at 10,000 when he was officially elected President and Pelosi-Reid took over Congress.

It looked like the market had finally stabilized around 8200 when Obama officially took over power and started daily talking trillions of dollars of new spending/debt, nationalized health care, tax increases, and just outright wealth transfers and power grabs. These are scary things to rational investors and their money is doing the talking for them as they bail out of the markets.

Yeah, I know, this is all Bush's fault.

[clambake]

It looked like the market had finally stabilized around 8200

thats what people think when they don't look beyond the 3' radius of their own little world.

stick to tour guiding.

[CosmicCowboy]

thats what people think when they don't look beyond the 3' radius of their own little world.

stick to tour guiding.

Damn, you are a little fucking bitch. Why don't you actually bring some substance to the table instead of just throwing hand grenades. I called this shit last September and urged everyone that had 401K's to get the hell out of the stock market and into cash equivalents.

Search it if you don't believe me.

[Chief]

I can't believe that you guys think it has nothing to do with him.

The stock market was at 12,000 when it was clear he was about to be the next President.

It was still at 10,000 when he was officially elected President and Pelosi-Reid took over Congress.

It looked like the market had finally stabilized around 8200 when Obama officially took over power and started daily talking trillions of dollars of new spending/debt, nationalized health care, tax increases, and just outright wealth transfers and power grabs. These are scary things to rational investors and their money is doing the talking for them as they bail out of the markets.

Yeah, I know, this is all Bush's fault.

contrary to popular belief, obama is not god, did u think that 1 month into his term, we'd be out of the recession and everything would be ok again ?

Republicans were running the country for the last 8 YEARS !
yet no, it's not their fault, it's obama's fault :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

And you assholes think that Obama turning a democratic congress loose in his first week of office to write a trillion dollar pork bill that does NOTHING to address shoring up the financial system had NOTHING to do with this latest collapse? Are you really that stupid?

[clambake]

Damn, you are a little fucking bitch. Why don't you actually bring some substance to the table instead of just throwing hand grenades. I called this shit last September and urged everyone that had 401K's to get the hell out of the stock market and into cash equivalents.

Search it if you don't believe me.

where did you get that 8200? darts?

Damn, you are a little fucking bitch.
who's doing the crying here?

[CosmicCowboy]

Republicans were running the country for the last 8 YEARS !
yet no, it's not their fault, it's obama's fault :lol

I will be the first to admit that Bush should have been tougher on congress years ago to tighten up on Freddie and Fannie. He took it to them and pointed out that they were totally out of control and Bawney Fwank, Nancy Pelosi, and Reid refused to admit it and refused to help rein them in. Bush still had fighting terrorism as his #1 priority and fiscal sanity at Fannie and Freddie got traded away in the process. Huge mistake on Bush's part. Criminal that Fwank, and Pelosi are still blaming him for the fiasco they had a huge part in creating.

[CosmicCowboy]

Uhh...where did I get the 8200? That's the range +/- a few hundred it traded in for 4 months. It would drop on bad news but bounce right back. Market was really trying to establish a bottom. I didn't invent the terminology...that's what it's called.

http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/_/_dji

[pkbpkb81]

Translation:

"I don't like Democrats, and will fully blame Obama for everything bad, and not credit him for anything good, despite any evidence to the contrary."

Well, at least we all know where you stand on any given topic. Input issue, blame/credit Democrats in any way that makes them look most bad or least good.

like most of the people do with the rep. party

[clambake]

bush did whatever the hell he wanted.

oh, and his number 1 priority was a miserable failure. republicans had control of EVERYTHING, including congress.

i like the bawny fwank comment. it's a window to your character.

[pkbpkb81]

contrary to popular belief, obama is not god, did u think that 1 month into his term, we'd be out of the recession and everything would be ok again ?

Republicans were running the country for the last 8 YEARS !
yet no, it's not their fault, it's obama's fault :lol

wrong there was a republican presdent but congress for part of that time was run by the lefties

[pkbpkb81]

bush did whatever the hell he wanted.

oh, and his number 1 priority was a miserable failure. republicans had control of EVERYTHING, including congress.

i like the bawny fwank comment. it's a window to your character.

for a good part of bush run in office the dem had control of congress

[clambake]

:lol @ people counting on "charts" and history to gauge the current crisis.

[MannyIsGod]

Obama caused AIG to be a really big shithole right CC?

[CosmicCowboy]

Obama caused AIG to be a really big shithole right CC?

Manny, AIG is indefensible for Republicans AND Democrats. Fuckem both.

Those credit swap derivatives were insane. An investment bank puts together a high yield portfolio of crap and pays AIG to "insure" the portfolio of crap so they could sell it. Now, we as taxpayers are footing the bill on this failed bet by AIG and paying those investors high yields on their portfolios of crap they bought knowing they were crap.

Fuck.

[clambake]

Manny, AIG is indefensible for Republicans AND Democrats. Fuckem both.

Those credit swap derivatives were insane. An investment bank puts together a high yield portfolio of crap and pays AIG to "insure" the portfolio of crap so they could sell it. Now, we as taxpayers are footing the bill on this failed bet by AIG and paying those investors high yields on their portfolios of crap they bought knowing they were crap.

Fuck.

thats not what you said. you said it was tied to obama's presidency.

thats some butthurt backpedaling.

[tlongII]

Blaming Bush for the economic crisis is no more and no less ridiculous than blaming Obama imo. The blame really lies with the twisted, amoral executives of financial institutions.

[CosmicCowboy]

thats not what you said. you said it was tied to obama's presidency.

thats some butthurt backpedaling.

Fuck off punk. In a battle of wits and knowledge you are bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I did not say that it was all related to Obama's presidency, but his reckless and random irresponsibility in proposing new social spending coupled with tax increases during a recession is doing NOTHING to reassure the markets.

If you knew ANYTHING about the current situation you would have known that that big 4th quarter write down at AIG was coming...that was part of the original deal...

[clambake]

Fuck off punk. In a battle of wits and knowledge you are bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I did not say that it was all related to Obama's presidency, but his reckless and random irresponsibility in proposing new social spending coupled with tax increases during a recession is doing NOTHING to reassure the markets.

If you knew ANYTHING about the current situation you would have known that that big 4th quarter write down at AIG was coming...that was part of the original deal...

do all pretend cowboys change the subject?

[CosmicCowboy]

What is this pretend cowboy shit you keep posting?

Who the fuck are you? Watching you urban pussies posting earlier about about your worst case survivalist plans was one of the funniest things I read all day.

[clambake]

What is this pretend cowboy shit you keep posting?

Who the fuck are you? Watching you urban pussies posting earlier about about your worst case survivalist plans was one of the funniest things I read all day.

:lol i didn't do any of that.

way to keep pressing the change in subject.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol i didn't do any of that.

way to keep pressing the change in subject.

Way to avoid a direct question. Whats this pretend cowboy shit you keep throwing out?

[clambake]

Way to avoid a direct question. Whats this pretend cowboy shit you keep throwing out?

your irritation suggest there is some truth to it.

now, calm down and refresh our memories of MY survivalist plans.

[CosmicCowboy]

your irritation suggest there is some truth to it.

now, calm down and refresh our memories of MY survivalist plans.

My apology. On review it was RandomGuy leading that one. He is on an equal ignorance footing with you and I confused the two. My apology.

As for my irritation concerning the cowboy references, I know what I know and I know what I do. I'm not one of those fake guys wearing hats and boots just so they can go dancing at Cowboys.

I'm not saying I'm as tough as some 1800's cowboy, but in an armageddon type financial meltdown I would say I probably have a 99% better chance of surviving with my family than all but about 50 other people on this board.

[clambake]

My apology. On review it was RandomGuy leading that one. He is on an equal ignorance footing with you and I confused the two. My apology.
thats some apology. just a cowboy shooting his mouth off?


As for my irritation concerning the cowboy references, I know what I know and I know what I do. I'm not one of those fake guys wearing hats and boots just so they can go dancing at Cowboys.
i didn't realize this would be such a spur in your ass. my apologies.


I'm not saying I'm as tough as some 1800's cowboy, but in an armageddon type financial meltdown I would say I probably have a 99% better chance of surviving with my family than all but about 50 other people on this board.
the first mistake is thinking you're safe.

[angrydude]

The markets are forward thinking.

Obama just tripled the national debt.

And you have the balls to say Obama doesn't even have just a little bit to do with this?

[Wild Cobra]

Damn. Dropping like a rock. Down 2%+ in the first 30 minutes to 6900. :wow
Looks like my 6,000 prediction will come sooner than I thought.


6,763.29 Down 299.64 (4.24%)

Crap. Market seems to have lost all faith in "change". I'm hearing some heavy hitter economists now talking about a bottom at 5000 or lower.
No, they market's know that change means turning stocks into penny stocks.


Man, I predicted dow at 7,500 when it was back at 10,000.

Boy was I wrong!
I think my 6,000 is wrong too. I had no idea this president and congress would still be working on more and more bailout packages. As long as the democrats are bent on destroying capitalism to institute their Marxism, the markets will keep diving.

[CosmicCowboy]

Looks like my 6,000 prediction will come sooner than I thought.


No, they market's know that change means turning stocks into penny stocks.


I think my 6,000 is wrong too. I had no idea this president and congress would still be working on more and more bailout packages. As long as the democrats are bent on destroying capitalism to institute their Marxism, the markets will keep diving.

Agreed. I now think we are gonna see 5K or less on the Dow and 500 on the S&P. This is gonna get a lot uglier than it should have. They are gonna get their fucking change all right.

[CosmicCowboy]

the first mistake is thinking you're safe.

I honestly don't see that armageddon/road warrior situation happening but if it does I'm probably more prepared than most.

Not saying I'm safe, but maybe just more prepared than the average bear. I actually know how to farm and ranch, how to hunt, have the equipment, have the property, and have simple tastes for the most part. Already have the rain water collection system with 10,000 gallons of storage. Also have a fairly shallow well that could easily be converted to solar. The fallback system is there. I know how to smoke meat for safe storage and how to grow and can vegetables. I may not be a navy seal, but I'm a pretty decent shot and in that armageddon type situation if you are within 1/4 mile and I consider you a threat you are dead. It wouldn't be easy and it wouldn't be fun but I hope I could keep my extended family alive.

[pkbpkb81]

the markets are forward thinking.

Obama just tripled the national debt.

And you have the balls to say obama doesn't even have just a little bit to do with this?

your right!

[Marcus Bryant]

I honestly don't see that armageddon/road warrior situation happening but if it does I'm probably more prepared than most.

Not saying I'm safe, but maybe just more prepared than the average bear. I actually know how to farm and ranch, how to hunt, have the equipment, have the property, and have simple tastes for the most part. Already have the rain water collection system with 10,000 gallons of storage. Also have a fairly shallow well that could easily be converted to solar. The fallback system is there. I know how to smoke meat for safe storage and how to grow and can vegetables. I may not be a navy seal, but I'm a pretty decent shot and in that armageddon type situation if you are within 1/4 mile and I consider you a threat you are dead. It wouldn't be easy and it wouldn't be fun but I hope I could keep my extended family alive.

So you're saying I should short the major indices today?

[smeagol]

The last two pages of this thread have been hilarious.

The resident Republicans blaming Obama for the tanking market? :lol

Funny shit! So CC, what would have Bush and the Republicans done?

IIRC, Bush was a big proponent and was able to pass the first bailout plan. What makes you think he has a different recepy to solve this crisis than to through money at it? Repubs and Dems approach this problem in the same way.

This reminds me of a year-old thread were I was arguing with Manny about how, IMO, the fate of the American people does not change (substantially) depending on the color of the Government. I see the Repubs addressing the crisis in the exact same way as the Dems are addressing it (and the Dems opposing it in Congress the same way the Repubs are opposing it).

[MannyIsGod]

I know exactly what thread you're talking about and if you think that Obama is doing the exact thing Bush or the GOP would have done then you have not been paying attention at all.

[MannyIsGod]

And for the record I don't believe CC is blaming Obama he just doesn't agree with what he's doing. I don't necessarily agree with him (although I'm not really happy with the treasury department either) but I do see the difference in blaming Obama and just not approving of what he does.

[smeagol]

I know exactly what thread you're talking about and if you think that Obama is doing the exact thing Bush or the GOP would have done then you have not been paying attention at all.

Not the "exact same thing" but the approach is not radically different.

My point in that thread was that the US economy has reached such a degree of development that it goes through natural cylces which do not depend that much on who is in power.

What we are going through is just one more cycle. The problem is that after 25 years of continued growth (with few and feeble recessions in between), the US economy was bound for a big correction.

And one more thing: the blame does not stand with one party or the other.

[TDMVPDPOY]

didnt bush party held alot of seats in the senate when he was in office, which allow them to pass any stupid policys and legislation required.....

[smeagol]

So you're saying I should short the major indices today?

Buy longer dated puts of the Dow and the S&P. June and longer.

Nevertheless, I would wait a while. The market might rebound a little after the beating it took last week and yesterday.

[MannyIsGod]

Not the "exact same thing" but the approach is not radically different.

My point in that thread was that the US economy has reached such a degree of development that it goes through natural cylces which do not depend that much on who is in power.

What we are going through is just one more cycle. The problem is that after 25 years of continued growth (with few and feeble recessions in between), the US economy was bound for a big correction.

And one more thing: the blame does not stand with one party or the other.

This isn't just a cyclical thing. This is the result of incredibly short sighted people in the banking industry leading to irresponsible liabilites without enough covering of their asses. And because the total collapse of our financial system means the total collapse of our society, we all have to foot the fucking bill.

Cyclical my ass.

[CosmicCowboy]

This isn't just a cyclical thing. This is the result of incredibly short sighted people in the banking industry leading to irresponsible liabilites without enough covering of their asses. And because the total collapse of our financial system means the total collapse of our society, we all have to foot the fucking bill.

Cyclical my ass.

Agreed. This is not a typical cyclical correction. This was the perfect financial storm and both political parties share in the blame. It is the confluence of:

1) Repeal of the Glass- Steagall act (unanimously supported by both parties) allowing regular banks to function as investment banks which made their "books" virtually impossible to value and evaluate by bank regulators.

2) Easy credit policies that were practically mandated by congress and implemented by quasi-governmental agencies (Fannie and Freddie) with absolutely NO congressional oversite. The finger can more easily be pointed at the Democrats on this one because Fannie and Freddie were basically a retirement home for former Clinton administrators and Republicans (including Bush) were calling as early as 5 years ago for more oversight of the ridiculously lax credit standards at Fannie and Freddie.

3) Too easy credit for too long...when a person making minimum wage with outstanding credit card debt and a 600 credit score could walk in to any automobile dealership in town and walk out with a $35,000 automobile financed for 6 or 7 years logic had totally left the system.

4) AIG's default credit swaps. In my opinion this was criminal. An insurance company is supposed to have assets to back up the risks they assume. They were leveraged 30-1+ without a fallback position.

All these issues hitting at once made this one nasty bitch and it could be years before it sorts itself out...at the same time, it is not a valid reason to abandon the democratic/capitalist system for a socialist mother government approach.

[LockBeard]

can't believe you idiots are blaming this on obama, lol

stupid republicans.

:lmao

Damn chief, don't be blind. You're the pacman champ. Represent.

Obama did not cause this, but he is making it worse. He instills ZERO confidence in business because of his far-left agenda he publicly speaks about even now. Businesses are getting their asses kicked and now they have to worry about strengthened unions, increased taxes, univ. healthcare, and cap-and-trade bullshit taxes? Obama can't even keep his dick in his pants long enough to get out of this.

The guy is a business killer. Everyone already knows it. The only people still excited about him are the worker bees who want people to give them honey. The hive doesn't play that shit.

The problem with far-left ideas is they need hard working Americans to foot the bill. When half the country doesn't want to, when 40% are paying for the other 60%, the system will not work. When you have to keep printing and stealing billions/trillions...:lmao

Lots of people simply do not want to live in a European Nanny Weak Country.

[RandomGuy]

When and if Obama ever does anything worthy of praise I will be the first to give him props.

I was going to say "bullshit", but I don't really know you well enough to be able to truly assess your "political hack rating", despite what my intuition is telling me.

I will take you at your word, but generally people who make statements like the ones you have given here, would NEVER do so to any Democrat.

We'll see.

[LockBeard]

At the same time, I am very glad McCain is not at the wheel atm haha.

[MannyIsGod]

The Fannie and Freddie lending is a leading GOP talking point but the amount of sub prime lending is much smaller than what was done by private institutions during the sub prime boom. Fannie and Freddie were put in place to give low income families a shot at owning a home but their regulations were actually stronger than most private institutions during the boom (03-07).

Its a talking point and nothing more. Private companies ran with the sub prime ball. Not Fannie or Freddie.

[RandomGuy]

Agreed. This is not a typical cyclical correction. This was the perfect financial storm and both political parties share in the blame. It is the confluence of:

1) Repeal of the Glass- Steagall act (unanimously supported by both parties) allowing regular banks to function as investment banks which made their "books" virtually impossible to value and evaluate by bank regulators.

2) Easy credit policies that were practically mandated by congress and implemented by quasi-governmental agencies (Fannie and Freddie) with absolutely NO congressional oversite. The finger can more easily be pointed at the Democrats on this one because Fannie and Freddie were basically a retirement home for former Clinton administrators and Republicans (including Bush) were calling as early as 5 years ago for more oversight of the ridiculously lax credit standards at Fannie and Freddie.

3) Too easy credit for too long...when a person making minimum wage with outstanding credit card debt and a 600 credit score could walk in to any automobile dealership in town and walk out with a $35,000 automobile financed for 6 or 7 years logic had totally left the system.

4) AIG's default credit swaps. In my opinion this was criminal. An insurance company is supposed to have assets to back up the risks they assume. They were leveraged 30-1+ without a fallback position.

All these issues hitting at once made this one nasty bitch and it could be years before it sorts itself out...at the same time, it is not a valid reason to abandon the democratic/capitalist system for a socialist mother government approach.

Ok, now this is better.

I fully agree about AIG's swaps.

Credit default swaps should be treated like insurance, because that is what they are.

As they have been used in practice they are essentially a form of gambling.
"I'll bet that company will default on its bonds."
"Oh yeah, I take that bet."

Either treat it like insurance, and demand solid reserves set aside for losses, or have the Nevada Gaming Commission regulate it.

Lastly though:
Obama has gone to lengths to avoid anything that might be full nationalization, and even tries to avoid the use of the word to keep anyone from thinking that is the administration's intention.

Further, he has stated that the government MUST fully divest itself from the loans/investments that is has made in the process.

Are these the actions of someone who really wants full bore socialism?

[MannyIsGod]

Lots of people simply do not want to live in a European Nanny Weak Country.


Iceland, Norway, Ireland, Netherlands, Sweden, Luxembourg, Switzerland, France, Finland, Denmark and Austria.

Just a few European Nanny Weak Countries with higher standards of living than the United States.

[MannyIsGod]

Ok, now this is better.

I fully agree about AIG's swaps.

Credit default swaps should be treated like insurance, because that is what they are.

As they have been used in practice they are essentially a form of gambling.
"I'll bet that company will default on its bonds."
"Oh yeah, I take that bet."

Either treat it like insurance, and demand solid reserves set aside for losses, or have the Nevada Gaming Commission regulate it.

Lastly though:
Obama has gone to lengths to avoid anything that might be full nationalization, and even tries to avoid the use of the word to keep anyone from thinking that is the administration's intention.

Further, he has stated that the government MUST fully divest itself from the loans/investments that is has made in the process.

Are these the actions of someone who really wants full bore socialism?

A lot of conservatives are actually coming out further on the left on the subject of nationalization. Quite frankly, most of the smarter economic minds keep putting out information in favor of nationalization. The longer we go on and the more money we give these companies the worse they look for not taking that course of action.

[RandomGuy]

The Fannie and Freddie lending is a leading GOP talking point but the amount of sub prime lending is much smaller than what was done by private institutions during the sub prime boom. Fannie and Freddie were put in place to give low income families a shot at owning a home but their regulations were actually stronger than most private institutions during the boom (03-07).

Its a talking point and nothing more. Private companies ran with the sub prime ball. Not Fannie or Freddie.

You beat me to it.

Ask him what percentage of all mortgages originated with Fannie and Freddie during the last 10 years.

If the "Fannie and Freddie are mostly to blame" schtick holds any water, the number should be more than 50%.

I have a rough idea as to what the % is, and you can bet it isn't anywhere near being a majority.

But since it isn't my claim, it is Cosmic Cowboys', he should be able to back up his statement by showing that the two organizations were responsible for a pretty sizable chunk of the mortgage market.

If he can't, then he has pretty much done just as you say, i.e. aped a hollow, useless, politicallly motivated talking point at the expense of a comprehensive and realistic view of the mess.

I will give it a day or so, and maybe he can support that statement.

[MannyIsGod]

I know he can't support the statement. The data has been out there for months now. Yet you still see the same talking point (or internet meme) regurgitated time and time again.

Actually - to be fair I don't even think its a GOP talking point. It really is more of an internet meme than anything else. It just gets repeated time and time again. I guess its possible its something you hear on talk radio but I don't know since I don't listen to that crap.

[RandomGuy]

A lot of conservatives are actually coming out further on the left on the subject of nationalization. Quite frankly, most of the smarter economic minds keep putting out information in favor of nationalization. The longer we go on and the more money we give these companies the worse they look for not taking that course of action.

It is really a damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Either we as a society suck up (socialize) the losses through our government, then try to recoup those losses with a resale, or

We as a society suck up (socialize) the losses through free-market, chaotic collapses of the responsible institutions, as well as bear all of the collateral damage from the fear-based abandonment/flight of capital from any related business.

Everybody WILL end up footing the bill in one way or another.

The big problem now is that NO ONE knows the full extent of the losses, because we have lacked the political will to suck it up and really coldly evaluate it.

Until we do something about definitively valuing those assets, we will be stuck in half-assed limbo of not knowing whose assets are worth a shit and whose aren't. THAT is really one of the most fundamental contributing factors to our current problem that would be solved by having the government step in in some way and buying assets.

[CosmicCowboy]

Manny, you are playing word games now. I really thought you were smarter than that. The shit mortgages were flipped to Fannie and Freddie even if they weren't originated by Fannie and Freddie. The lenders like Countrywide were encouraged by Fannie and Freddie to go find more with a "wink wink" just write em and we'll buy em culture. It may be fashionable to call them "predatory lenders" but in every transaction there was a willing buyer and a willing seller. What was missing was responsible lending oversight to determine if the buyer really had the ability and desire to pay.

[RandomGuy]

Iceland, Norway, Ireland, Netherlands, Sweden, Luxembourg, Switzerland, France, Finland, Denmark and Austria.

Just a few European Nanny Weak Countries with higher standards of living than the United States.

Personally, I have seriously considered moving to one of those countries to work.

If I were one of those countries, and all of them have low or negative birth rates, I would be advertising the fact that everybody has health insurance of some sort in my country to the tens of millions of skilled US workers who don't.

At some point, Americans will realize what price they really are paying for a lack of a social safety net, and either we will provide that net, or there is a fair chance that countries that DO offer that security will find themselves the beneficiaries of a brain drain from the US.

[RandomGuy]

Manny, you are playing word games now. I really thought you were smarter than that. The shit mortgages were flipped to Fannie and Freddie even if they weren't originated by Fannie and Freddie. The lenders like Countrywide were encouraged by Fannie and Freddie to go find more with a "wink wink" just write em and we'll buy em culture. It may be fashionable to call them "predatory lenders" but in every transaction there was a willing buyer and a willing seller. What was missing was responsible lending oversight to determine if the buyer really had the ability and desire to pay.

Indeed they were flipped to Fannie and Freddie.

The question still remains though.

What percentage of the total bonds securitized by mortgages originated with Fannie and Freddie over the last 10 years?

[CosmicCowboy]

A lot of conservatives are actually coming out further on the left on the subject of nationalization. Quite frankly, most of the smarter economic minds keep putting out information in favor of nationalization. The longer we go on and the more money we give these companies the worse they look for not taking that course of action.

I am one of them, but my take is not actual nationalization, where the government continues to run the bank ad-nauseum, but rather an orderly breakup and liquidation of assets and settlement with creditors similar to a bankruptcy. For example, citi definitely has assets...it has a large retail banking chain that could be absorbed by another institution on the right terms. It has a large credit card/collection empire that has value. Other banks and institutions could perform the same function as the existing citibank. I simply don't accept "too big to fail'...We know that there would be losses to be absorbed by the Fed, but we are doing that anyway...the difference is that with an orderly liquidation we would actually be able to identify these and quantify these losses.

[CosmicCowboy]

Indeed they were flipped to Fannie and Freddie.

The question still remains though.

What percentage of the total bonds securitized by mortgages originated with Fannie and Freddie over the last 10 years?

In dollar amounts it was about 1.5 trillion. Can't give you the percentage you are asking for because those asset backed bonds were never regulated or tracked so those numbers don't exist.

[CosmicCowboy]

OK..a little bump up at the opening but that little optimistic surge is over and the market is down another 50 points going straight down...interesting article in the WSJ this morning...

The Obama Economy
As the Dow keeps dropping, the President is running out of people to blame.


As 2009 opened, three weeks before Barack Obama took office, the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed at 9034 on January 2, its highest level since the autumn panic. Yesterday the Dow fell another 4.24% to 6763, for an overall decline of 25% in two months and to its lowest level since 1997. The dismaying message here is that President Obama's policies have become part of the economy's problem.

Americans have welcomed the Obama era in the same spirit of hope the President campaigned on. But after five weeks in office, it's become clear that Mr. Obama's policies are slowing, if not stopping, what would otherwise be the normal process of economic recovery. From punishing business to squandering scarce national public resources, Team Obama is creating more uncertainty and less confidence -- and thus a longer period of recession or subpar growth.

The Democrats who now run Washington don't want to hear this, because they benefit from blaming all bad economic news on President Bush. And Mr. Obama has inherited an unusual recession deepened by credit problems, both of which will take time to climb out of. But it's also true that the economy has fallen far enough, and long enough, that much of the excess that led to recession is being worked off. Already 15 months old, the current recession will soon match the average length -- and average job loss -- of the last three postwar downturns. What goes down will come up -- unless destructive policies interfere with the sources of potential recovery.

And those sources have been forming for some time. The price of oil and other commodities have fallen by two-thirds since their 2008 summer peak, which has the effect of a major tax cut. The world is awash in liquidity, thanks to monetary ease by the Federal Reserve and other central banks. Monetary policy operates with a lag, but last year's easing will eventually stir economic activity.

Housing prices have fallen 27% from their Case-Shiller peak, or some two-thirds of the way back to their historical trend. While still high, credit spreads are far from their peaks during the panic, and corporate borrowers are again able to tap the credit markets. As equities were signaling with their late 2008 rally and January top, growth should under normal circumstances begin to appear in the second half of this year.

So what has happened in the last two months? The economy has received no great new outside shock. Exchange rates and other prices have been stable, and there are no security crises of note. The reality of a sharp recession has been known and built into stock prices since last year's fourth quarter.

What is new is the unveiling of Mr. Obama's agenda and his approach to governance. Every new President has a finite stock of capital -- financial and political -- to deploy, and amid recession Mr. Obama has more than most. But one negative revelation has been the way he has chosen to spend his scarce resources on income transfers rather than growth promotion. Most of his "stimulus" spending was devoted to social programs, rather than public works, and nearly all of the tax cuts were devoted to income maintenance rather than to improving incentives to work or invest.

His Treasury has been making a similar mistake with its financial bailout plans. The banking system needs to work through its losses, and one necessary use of public capital is to assist in burning down those bad assets as fast as possible. Yet most of Team Obama's ministrations so far have gone toward triage and life support, rather than repair and recovery.

AIG yesterday received its fourth "rescue," including $70 billion in Troubled Asset Relief Program cash, without any clear business direction. (See here.) Citigroup's restructuring last week added not a dollar of new capital, and also no clear direction. Perhaps the imminent Treasury "stress tests" will clear the decks, but until they do the banks are all living in fear of becoming the next AIG. All of this squanders public money that could better go toward burning down bank debt.

The market has notably plunged since Mr. Obama introduced his budget last week, and that should be no surprise. The document was a declaration of hostility toward capitalists across the economy. Health-care stocks have dived on fears of new government mandates and price controls. Private lenders to students have been told they're no longer wanted. Anyone who uses carbon energy has been warned to expect a huge tax increase from cap and trade. And every risk-taker and investor now knows that another tax increase will slam the economy in 2011, unless Mr. Obama lets Speaker Nancy Pelosi impose one even earlier.

Meanwhile, Congress demands more bank lending even as it assails lenders and threatens to let judges rewrite mortgage contracts. The powers in Congress -- unrebuked by Mr. Obama -- are ridiculing and punishing the very capitalists who are essential to a sustainable recovery. The result has been a capital strike, and the return of the fear from last year that we could face a far deeper downturn. This is no way to nurture a wounded economy back to health.

Listening to Mr. Obama and his chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, on the weekend, we couldn't help but wonder if they appreciate any of this. They seem preoccupied with going to the barricades against Republicans who wield little power, or picking a fight with Rush Limbaugh, as if this is the kind of economic leadership Americans want.

Perhaps they're reading the polls and figure they have two or three years before voters stop blaming Republicans and Mr. Bush for the economy. Even if that's right in the long run, in the meantime their assault on business and investors is delaying a recovery and ensuring that the expansion will be weaker than it should be when it finally does arrive.

[Marcus Bryant]

Manny, you are playing word games now. I really thought you were smarter than that. The shit mortgages were flipped to Fannie and Freddie even if they weren't originated by Fannie and Freddie. The lenders like Countrywide were encouraged by Fannie and Freddie to go find more with a "wink wink" just write em and we'll buy em culture. It may be fashionable to call them "predatory lenders" but in every transaction there was a willing buyer and a willing seller. What was missing was responsible lending oversight to determine if the buyer really had the ability and desire to pay.

This crisis begins and ends with the GSEs and the Fed. The sad thing is that we will not have learned our lesson and will go back to yet another period of easy money and asset bubbles, as the government fails to do the one task which it dominates and that is the creation of currency and credit. Fannie/Freddie once they reemerge should either be entirely public or entirely private to avoid the inherent moral hazard in their previous life.

Downturns are regarded as the end of times by the Fed, whereas booms are regarded as a time to keep the liquor flowing. The asymmetrical approach to monetary policy has been a significant factor in the last two bubbles here in the US. The Fed lacks the wherewithal to hold expansions in check. Then again, the Fed is mandated by Congress to pursue full employment.

We're all Keynesians now, all the time. Even the threat of slower growth is an excuse to spend more and cut tax rates. Nevermind that Keynes' prescription was for an economy mired in a severe recession and on the ropes.

Ultimately, it gets back to the people. The government will give the people what they want. The people want Santa Claus. That's why Republicans are as much for increased public spending through new programs and entitlements as the Dems are. Meanwhile the people behave as if there's a difference between the two parties and as if elections really matter.

Government acts madly and stupidly because the people are mad and stupid.

[smeagol]

It's all the Wall Street bankers fault!

The people, who took advantage of low interest rates and free money for 25 years, have nothing to be ashamed of.

:tu

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL

http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=289503

And this is not fox...it's CNBC...

"“Until the Obama administration starts listening, until they start paying attention to what you’re watching – to the stock market, until they realize that their agenda is destroying the life savings of millions of Americans – then all I can give you is caution."


And here was Obama's response:

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama is comparing the stock market to the daily tracking polls used during campaigns, saying that paying too close attention to Wall Street's "fits and starts" could lead to bad long-term policy.

Obama spoke to reporters Tuesday after meeting in the Oval Office with visiting British Prime Minister Gordon Brown. Obama said he is not measuring policies against "the day-to-day gyrations of the stock market," but by whether lending is flowing more freely, businesses are investing and the unemployed are going back to work.

He said he is "absolutely confident" that those things will happen. But the president also said it will take time for the mistakes of the past to work their way through the system.

[MannyIsGod]

It's all the Wall Street bankers fault!

The people, who took advantage of low interest rates and free money for 25 years, have nothing to be ashamed of.

:tu

This isn't a broad credit default problem. Trying to paint it as such is wrong.

Yes Smeagol, it IS Wall Streets fault. Not only did they give the bad loans and they managed to leverage everything around them while asking for regulations to be removed. They flat out fucked us all for short term gain.

[clambake]

This isn't a broad credit default problem. Trying to paint it as such is wrong.

Yes Smeagol, it IS Wall Streets fault. Not only did they give the bad loans and they managed to leverage everything around them while asking for regulations to be removed. They flat out fucked us all for short term gain.

haven't you heard? cowboy has come full circle to blame it on obama.

[CosmicCowboy]

Haven't you heard? Clambake is a fucking idiot.

Obama didn't create this mess. Neither did Bush.

But Obama COULD take actions to end this mess faster instead of using it as an excuse for radical social re-engineering. If he doesn't wake the fuck up he really is going to mortally wound our financial system and possibly take the world economy with it.

[clambake]

you kiss your mother with that mouth?

i was commenting on your sudden allegiance with cramer. (or anyone else that sooths your residual butt hurt)

[smeagol]

This isn't a broad credit default problem. Trying to paint it as such is wrong.


It sure looks like one. A pretty severe one, I my add.



Yes Smeagol, it IS Wall Streets fault.


Finding a villain is always the easy way out.



Not only did they give the bad loans


Did they give those loans to themselves? Somebody took those loans and benefited from those loans. Easy access to a plasma and a car is always a nice thing, except if you couldn't afford them in the first placer.

And I'm not saying the bankers are faultless. They are guilty. But as guilty as the regulators, Government and the general public.



and they managed to leverage everything around them while asking for regulations to be removed.


I see regulators that did not do their jobs hidden somewhere in that phrase.




They flat out fucked us all for short term gain.


If you did not finance yourself beyond your means in these last 20 years, then yes, you were royally fucked.

Otherwise, you are also to blame.

[CosmicCowboy]

What a great day! Market was only down 38 points! Who cares that it's the lowest it's been in a dozen years...heck...our President says it's no more important than the results of a daily tracking poll in the election. What a relief. I thought people were actually losing money.

[tlongII]

I guess my 401K isn't important then?

[AlamoSpursFan]

I'm jumping back in with both feet soon...these bargains look too good to me. I'm already back to buying Pepsico stock through my paycheck. $48 for a stock that has a 37 year dividend record. Fucking A.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm jumping back in with both feet soon...these bargains look too good to me. I'm already back to buying Pepsico stock through my paycheck. $48 for a stock that has a 37 year dividend record. Fucking A.How rational of you.

[CosmicCowboy]

Well, the good news is that worst case scenario the market will probably only drop a couple thousand more.

[MannyIsGod]

It sure looks like one. A pretty severe one, I my add.





Finding a villain is always the easy way out.





Did they give those loans to themselves? Somebody took those loans and benefited from those loans. Easy access to a plasma and a car is always a nice thing, except if you couldn't afford them in the first placer.

And I'm not saying the bankers are faultless. They are guilty. But as guilty as the regulators, Government and the general public.





I see regulators that did not do their jobs hidden somewhere in that phrase.






If you did not finance yourself beyond your means in these last 20 years, then yes, you were royally fucked.

Otherwise, you are also to blame.

I meant to add consumer to the credit. Sure, the defaults are what kicked it off, but what really compounded this was how poorly leveraged wall street was. The financial sector is a mess and they're a mess because they fucked up. Yes, Americans took bad loans but had the banks properly covered their asses we woudln't be in this situation.

No doubt that some Americans have made poor decisions, but the real reason we're in this mess is because the people who's job it was to make sure shit like this didn't happen LET IT HAPPEN.

Wall Street is shares about 97% of the blame. Shit, if you want to know where the blame lies follow the fucking stimulus money trail.

[MannyIsGod]

What a great day! Market was only down 38 points! Who cares that it's the lowest it's been in a dozen years...heck...our President says it's no more important than the results of a daily tracking poll in the election. What a relief. I thought people were actually losing money.

The daily changes in the market aren't important. What is important is the health of the financial system. Once that is stable, the market will follow.

And nothing Obama does or says on a day to day basis is going to make Citi and BoA any stronger. Its going to take time.

[smeagol]

I meant to add consumer to the credit. Sure, the defaults are what kicked it off, but what really compounded this was how poorly leveraged wall street was.


The issue was not leverage. The issue was bad credit decisions.



The financial sector is a mess and they're a mess because they fucked up.

Can't argue with that. Bankers made poor credit decisions. They had no clue what type of risks they were taking. and regulators fucked up too. Big time. Theywere also clueless regarding how risky banks balnce sheets' has become.



Yes, Americans took bad loans but had the banks properly covered their asses we woudln't be in this situation.

Not only Americans. people all over the developed world.



No doubt that some Americans have made poor decisions, but the real reason we're in this mess is because the people who's job it was to make sure shit like this didn't happen LET IT HAPPEN.

Yes. The regulators.


Wall Street is shares about 97% of the blame. Shit, if you want to know where the blame lies follow the fucking stimulus money trail.


It is not that simple . . .

[tlongII]

New Stock Market Terms

CEO - Chief Embezzlement Officer


CFO - Corporate Fraud Officer


BULL MARKET - A random market movement causing an investor to mistake himself for a financial genius



BEAR MARKET - a 6 to 18 month period when the kids get no allowance, the wife gets no jewelry, and the husband gets no sex.


VALUE INVESTING - The art of buying low and selling lower.


P/E RATIO - The percentage of investors wetting their pants as the market keeps crashing.


BROKER - What my financial planner has made me.


STANDARD & POOR - Your life in a nutshell.


STOCK ANALYST - Idiot who just downgraded your stock..


STOCK SPLIT - When your ex-wife and her lawyer split your assets equally between themselves.


MARKET CORRECTION - The day after you buy stocks.


CASH FLOW - The movement your money makes as it disappears down the toilet.


YAHOO - What you yell after selling it to some poor sucker for $240 per share.


WINDOWS - What you jump out of when you're the sucker who bought Yahoo at $240 per share.


INSTITUTIONAL INVESTOR - Past year investor who's now locked up in a nuthouse.



PROFIT - an archaic word no longer in use.


# # # # #


If you had purchased $1000 of shares in Delta Airlines

one year ago, you will have $49.00 today.



If you had purchased $1000 of shares in AIG

one year ago, you will have $33.00 today.



If you had purchased $1000 of shares in Lehman Brothers

one year ago, you will have $0.00 today.



But---- if you had purchased $1000 worth of beer

one year ago, drank all the beer,

then turned in the aluminum cans for recycling refund,

you will have received $214.00.


Based on the above, the best current investment plan

is to drink heavily & recycle.

It's called the 401-Keg.

[MannyIsGod]

Yes. The regulators.

It is not that simple . . .

LOL dude - the banking sector is forever crying out for less regulation because they don't need it. Well they got it and they screwed the pooch.

I know that its your field and you don't want it to be true, but the big banks and AIG are the ones to blame here. It IS that simple.

[mookie2001]

i think esmegmol would know a little more than manny about banking

hes a banker
he works for a bank
a well known bank in america
a well known international bank
as a banker

[johnsmith]

i think esmegmol would know a little more than manny about banking

hes a banker
he works for a bank
a well known bank in america
a well known international bank
as a banker

I don't know mookie, manny is a lifelong college student, and we know how productive they are.

[Nbadan]

I don't know mookie, manny is a lifelong college student, and we know how productive they are.

:rolleyes

Money laundering drug money is hardly 'working for a bank'....

[smeagol]

LOL dude - the banking sector is forever crying out for less regulation because they don't need it. Well they got it and they screwed the pooch.


I could not agree with you more.



I know that its your field and you don't want it to be true


It was my field. I'm another casualty of the recession and the downsizing in the banking industry.

In any case, my field of expertise was lending money to big corporations, mainly in Lat Am. I had nothing to do with derivatives or mortgage backed securities.



but the big banks and AIG are the ones to blame here. It IS that simple.


Big banks and regulators share the blame equally (just because bankers cried for less regulation, regualtoars automatically had to give it to them?).

And Banks are just one part of the financial industry. Regulators lost oversight of many other players (insurance companies, hedge funds, etc), not just banks.

You also have other industries, which have been mismanaged for some time now (the Big Three in Detroit come to mind), who are at the verge of dissapearing and leaving millions without a job. Their problems cannot be blamed solely on the banking insudtry.

The drop in commodity prices has also affected many businesses.

As I said before, it is not that simple.

[smeagol]

Looks like the stock market will open in negative territory. Europe is down 2%. The GM news is not helping.

[CosmicCowboy]

:wow

Already down 3%

This is gonna get very ugly.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't know mookie, manny is a lifelong college student, and we know how productive they are.

Manny's produtivity > Johnsmith's productivity

Just saying

:toast

[MannyIsGod]

I could not agree with you more.





It was my field. I'm another casualty of the recession and the downsizing in the banking industry.

In any case, my field of expertise was lending money to big corporations, mainly in Lat Am. I had nothing to do with derivatives or mortgage backed securities.





Big banks and regulators share the blame equally (just because bankers cried for less regulation, regualtoars automatically had to give it to them?).

And Banks are just one part of the financial industry. Regulators lost oversight of many other players (insurance companies, hedge funds, etc), not just banks.

You also have other industries, which have been mismanaged for some time now (the Big Three in Detroit come to mind), who are at the verge of dissapearing and leaving millions without a job. Their problems cannot be blamed solely on the banking insudtry.

The drop in commodity prices has also affected many businesses.

As I said before, it is not that simple.

Ok, I agree with most of this post so I think we're just mainly disagreeing on semantics Sorry to hear about your situation btw. I hope you found something to cushion the blow and are putting your expertise to use.

[AlamoSpursFan]

How rational of you.

Obama's not gonna be POTUS forever. Just sayin'...

:lol

[BacktoBasics]

I meant to add consumer to the credit. Sure, the defaults are what kicked it off, but what really compounded this was how poorly leveraged wall street was. The financial sector is a mess and they're a mess because they fucked up. Yes, Americans took bad loans but had the banks properly covered their asses we woudln't be in this situation.

No doubt that some Americans have made poor decisions, but the real reason we're in this mess is because the people who's job it was to make sure shit like this didn't happen LET IT HAPPEN.

Wall Street is shares about 97% of the blame. Shit, if you want to know where the blame lies follow the fucking stimulus money trail.I couldn't agree more.

[clambake]

cowboy disappears yesterday, like clockwork.

cowboy reappears today, like clockwork.

listen cowboy, what matters is unemployment figures. not the daily moves on the market.

i know, i know, you'll swear to god that unemployment is directly tied to the daily rollercoaster, and i'm telling you it isn't.

i just thought it was funny that you wait to show up when it's down.

[CosmicCowboy]

cowboy disappears yesterday, like clockwork.

cowboy reappears today, like clockwork.

listen cowboy, what matters is unemployment figures. not the daily moves on the market.

i know, i know, you'll swear to god that unemployment is directly tied to the daily rollercoaster, and i'm telling you it isn't.

i just thought it was funny that you wait to show up when it's down.

You are such a fucking asshole. It would be nice if you would actually bring meaningful and substantive posts instead of just weak personal attacks, but if trying to be an internet tough guy gets you wood then keep it up wimp.

FYI. I was out of the office and at the ranch yesterday.

[clambake]

You are such a fucking asshole.
thats some pretty thin skin you got there, pardner.

FYI. I was out of the office and at the ranch yesterday.
:lol gee, didn't see that one coming.

by the way, i told you the most important factor to monitor. you just don't like that. you have to tie it up with your butt hurt.

[smeagol]

Ok, I agree with most of this post so I think we're just mainly disagreeing on semantics


I think this whole mess has been brewing for a long time. Glass-Steagall began to crumble over 10 years ago and was repealed in 1999. People all around the world starting abusing credit also right around that time. And right around that time the housing market and the stock market bubbles began.

Hedge funds started poping like mushrooms in the last 5 to 7 years. Finally, commodity prices started going crazy after 2000/2001. Some bottomed before (oil in 1998), some right at that time (copper and other metals in 2001) and some a little later (soft commodities in 2002/2003). The issue is that they all came crashing when this whole mess started (July/August of last year).

Bottom line is that the explosion of all these events have produced the perfect storm. Maybe some of the issues (repealing Glass-Steagall) caused some of the other events. I don't know.

What I do know is that this whole mess is complicated and the easy explanation is to pin it down on banks. I don't agree with that explanation, although it is ST's posters preferred explanation.



Sorry to hear about your situation btw. I hope you found something to cushion the blow and are putting your expertise to use.


It is not as bad as it seems. Leaving the banking industry today could be a blessing in disguise for me. Work volume is going to come down dramatically, and so will salaries.

Volatility and change means new opportunities, and these days, the world is full of them. From battered small companies to real estate, to opportunities in the agro-business (especially here in Argentina).

With valuations coming down dramatically, I will keep my eyes and ears open for such opportunities.

[CosmicCowboy]

What a dumb fuck. Unemployment is just one piece of the puzzle and is typically a RESULT, and not the CAUSE of a recession.

It's like saying vomiting causes the flu. Fucking idiot.

[clambake]

What a dumb fuck. Unemployment is just one piece of the puzzle and is typically a RESULT, and not the CAUSE of a recession.
never said it was, roy, but you do like to change the subject.


It's like saying vomiting causes the flu. Fucking idiot.
you might as well believe in that too.

[CosmicCowboy]

cowboy disappears yesterday, like clockwork.

cowboy reappears today, like clockwork.

listen cowboy, what matters is unemployment figures. not the daily moves on the market.

i know, i know, you'll swear to god that unemployment is directly tied to the daily rollercoaster, and i'm telling you it isn't.

i just thought it was funny that you wait to show up when it's down.


by the way, i told you the most important factor to monitor. you just don't like that. you have to tie it up with your butt hurt.

Who's changing the subject?

[smeagol]

Dow and S&P at 12 year lows.

I hope this is not like Japan in 90s . . .

[clambake]

Who's changing the subject?

would it be a fair guess to suggest that you don't have many employees?

[BacktoBasics]

I'm still laughing at vomiting causing the flu.

[CosmicCowboy]

would it be a fair guess to suggest that you don't have many employees?

I suspect that I have 11 more than you do.

[clambake]

I'm still laughing at vomiting causing the flu.

you mean it doesn't?

[CavsSuperFan]

I was watching the history channel & they did a segment on fire fighter hats…I never knew how much work goes into making a real fire fighters hat…I would really like to have one to wear around the house when I am watching TV & stuff…(seriously)…

Does anyone know where I can purchase one?

[clambake]

I suspect that I have 11 more than you do.

just as i thought.

[RandomGuy]

Well, the Chinese have to do something with the money we are sending them...


Morning Edition, February 27, 2009 · Cash-rich tourists from mainland China are coming to the United States to cruise neighborhoods with a lot of foreclosures or unsold developments. They are looking for bargain-basement buys. These recent home-buying tours to the U.S. have become one of the most popular tour group packages in China.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101234145

Not sure how that is relevant, but I would guess that we will see this trend continue, and probably accelerate, as housing prices here continue to tank, and it becomes a better and better bargain for those living in massively crowded Chinese cities.

Some are buying for homes to live in some are buying rental properties.

Either way it would have the effect of increasing demand for homes in the US and helping the market find a bottom sooner than it might otherwise.

[RandomGuy]

I was watching the history channel & they did a segment on fire fighter hats…I never knew how much work goes into making a real fire fighters hat…I would really like to have one to wear around the house when I am watching TV & stuff…(seriously)…

Does anyone know where I can purchase one?

Google is your friend. "firefighter helmets", enter,

http://www.thefirestore.com/

http://www.thefirestore.com/store/category.cfm/cid_121_helmets_parts_accessories/

Gotta admit, they are pretty f***ing cool.

[CavsSuperFan]

Awesome…Thanks Random Guy…

[CosmicCowboy]

I was watching the history channel & they did a segment on fire fighter hats…I never knew how much work goes into making a real fire fighters hat…I would really like to have one to wear around the house when I am watching TV & stuff…(seriously)…

Does anyone know where I can purchase one?

LOL

JimBob, I just got this scary vision of you bringing a date home, leaving her in the living room to "get comfortable" and then busting back into the room in your white socks, tightey whiteys, and fire helmet...

:lmao

[CavsSuperFan]

Would that be weird or something?

[RandomGuy]

LOL

JimBob, I just got this scary vision of you bringing a date home, leaving her in the living room to "get comfortable" and then busting back into the room in your white socks, tightey whiteys, and fire helmet...

:lmao

Don't forget to cue up Def Leppard's "Pyromania"

Nothing says burnin' hunka love like 80's hair metal.

[CosmicCowboy]

Would that be weird or something?

actually, clambake might like it. He talks internet smack like a receiver.

[clambake]

actually, clambake might like it. He talks internet smack like a receiver.

you're a fag basher, too?

shocking

[CosmicCowboy]

you're a fag basher, too?

shocking

Not at all. I fully support your right to take it up your ass.

[RandomGuy]

Once again, the old adage that the odds of either anal sex or hitler being mentioned in a thread approach one over time and with enough posts holds up.

[clambake]

Once again, the old adage that the odds of either anal sex or hitler being mentioned in a thread approach one over time and with enough posts holds up.

it's a sure sign of insecurity.

i find it amusing.

[AlamoSpursFan]

Not at all. I fully support your right to take it up your ass.

:lol

Citibank stock<Citibank ATM fee.

"What a bargain...that is a bargain for me. I think I will buy some!" -- Eddie Murphy

[CosmicCowboy]

it's a sure sign of insecurity.

i find it amusing.



:lol you are even worse as an amateur psychologist than you are as an amateur economist.

[marini martini]

:lmao

This is almost as funny as the UTSA football thread!!!:toast

Carry on!:corn:

[clambake]

:lol you are even worse as an amateur psychologist than you are as an amateur economist.

this is just eating you up.

[smeagol]

Markets down 4%

[CosmicCowboy]

Damn

Down 4%

I wouldn't be surprised to see a little bounce back up before the close but the trend still sucks.

[AlamoSpursFan]

That's your Obama tracking poll at work.

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

Damn

Down 4%

I wouldn't be surprised to see a little bounce back up before the close but the trend still sucks.Not for me, I just have to guess when to get back in.

[CosmicCowboy]

Not for me, I just have to guess when to get back in.

Just looks like the perfect setup for a short squeeze to me. At the first uptick all the shortsellers are gonna try to get out the window at the same time.

[CosmicCowboy]

Damn.

Even with a 60 point dead cat bounce at the close it still closed down 4.09%.

This is getting really ugly.

[smeagol]

Why is going up today after the horrible jobs report?

[CosmicCowboy]

Apparently the "good" news was that the jobs report was in the range of expectations and not worse...this bounce after a severe drop has been the pattern this year...the day traders ride the big move in the market down in their short positions and then unload them and take their profit.

[smeagol]

Apparently the "good" news was that the jobs report was in the range of expectations and not worse...this bounce after a severe drop has been the pattern this year...the day traders ride the big move in the market down in their short positions and then unload them and take their profit.

Dow peaked at 6,700 only todrop 200 point. It's in fluctuating in negative territory.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yep...short sellers just raked some chips off the table.

[smeagol]

Yep...short sellers just raked some chips off the table.

Or buyers of puts.

I bought S&P puts at 1.04 and sold them at 1.50 in the course of 3 hours.

Nevertheless, the risk I'm taking is pretty big.

[CosmicCowboy]

You're nuts. When you are playing that game you are playing poker against a dealer running a marked deck. They are gonna know about market moving events out of Washington before you do. You might win a few hands but in the long run you are gonna lose.

[smeagol]

You're nuts. When you are playing that game you are playing poker against a dealer running a marked deck. They are gonna know about market moving events out of Washington before you do. You might win a few hands but in the long run you are gonna lose.

True.

But there is still a 50/50 chance the mkt will go up or down. It is like playing red or balck in the roullette.

I'm obviously not putting a lot of money . . .

[Extra Stout]

The market is down 57% from its peak 17 months ago.

17 months into the Great Depression the market was down 55%.

Expect lots of civil unrest in the next couple of years.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

The market is down 57% from its peak 17 months ago.

17 months into the Great Depression the market was down 55%.

Expect lots of civil unrest in the next couple of years.

damn... and I thought all the great depression allusions out there were overreactions. Turns out its worst.

[Extra Stout]

Unemployment in the United States:

1929: 3.2%
1930: 8.7%
1931: 15.9%
1932: 23.6%
1933: 24.9%

2008: 5.8%
2009 (just through Feb!): 8.1%
2009 (overall): ???
2010: ???
2011: ???
2012: ???

[clambake]

Unemployment in the United States:

1929: 3.2%
1930: 8.7%
1931: 15.9%
1932: 23.6%
1933: 24.9%

2008: 5.8%
2009 (just through Feb!): 8.1%
2009 (overall): ???
2010: ???
2011: ???
2012: ???

this is the key. not the daily market roller coaster.

this will determine when the good loans go bad.

[peewee's lovechild]

"This is unbelievable. Who put the fuckin' cameras in this place?"

[ATRAIN]

"As for our problem with Providence - let's not cry over some spilled guineas."

[peewee's lovechild]

- "Hey, you fellas come from Providence?"
- "Isn't any of your business where we come from, is it, now?"
- "Fuckin' delivering cannolis or something?"

[ATRAIN]

"Blow me, all right? But not literally, though. Unfortunately, there's no promotion involved for you. "

[peewee's lovechild]

"Blow me, all right? But not literally, though. Unfortunately, there's no promotion involved for you. "

"Hey, I forgot the password, but if you'd like to come down to the garage with me, I'd be happy to give it to you."

[CuckingFunt]

- "Hey, you fellas come from Providence?"
- "Isn't any of your business where we come from, is it, now?"
- "Fuckin' delivering cannolis or something?"

Mmmmmmmm, cannoli.

[peewee's lovechild]

Mmmmmmmm, cannoli.

"Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."

[ATRAIN]

"Well, if I was I'd ask you why you're a Statie making 30 grand a year. And I think if I was Sigmund fuckin' Freud I wouldn't get an answer. So tell me, what's a lace-curtain motherfucker like you doing in the Staties?"

[peewee's lovechild]

"Your fuckin' family's dug into the Southie projects like ticks. Three-decker men at best. You, however, grew up on the North Shore, huh? Well, la-di-fuckin'-da. You were kind of a double kid, I bet, right? Huh? One kid with your old man, one kid with your mother. You're upper-middle class during the weeks, then you're droppin' your "R"s and you're hangin' in the big, bad Southie projects with your daddy, the fuckin' donkey on the weekends. I got that right?"

[RandomGuy]

Just looks like the perfect setup for a short squeeze to me. At the first uptick all the shortsellers are gonna try to get out the window at the same time.

Not to distract from the movie references, but do you think this will happen to citigroup?

[CosmicCowboy]

Not to distract from the movie references, but do you think this will happen to citigroup?

Hell, that's exactly what happened today. There were too many traders short on Citi and when it turned they had to buy back in at whatever price they could get to cover. Classic short squeeze. Volume was heavy the first hour and a half after opening while all the shorts were hitting the door and now the market is going sideways on tiny volume.

This is not a rally, it's a dead cat bounce and the markets going to continue to trend down.

[DarkReign]

Its great to see quotes from a movie you have never seen.

I still watch this thread regularly, but have nothing even remotely constructive to add. Just read and try to understand.

[RandomGuy]

Its great to see quotes from a movie you have never seen.

I still watch this thread regularly, but have nothing even remotely constructive to add. Just read and try to understand.

If you need any basic explanation of the short squeeze, there was a blog-style article posted by Winehole, (I think it was him) about the porsche short squeeze.

here is another:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/30/business/norris31.php

[RandomGuy]

Hell, that's exactly what happened today. There were too many traders short on Citi and when it turned they had to buy back in at whatever price they could get to cover. Classic short squeeze. Volume was heavy the first hour and a half after opening while all the shorts were hitting the door and now the market is going sideways on tiny volume.

This is not a rally, it's a dead cat bounce and the markets going to continue to trend down.

That was pretty much what I thought would happen.

It seems to me, based on my reading of a lot of stock trading websites, that shorting stocks is really in fashion these days, and not just because of the recession.

I would guess that this would tend to make the market a bit more "bouncy" in terms of swings.

It would also mean that if the market really starts running up, it will run up a LOT.

Bad for shorts, good for longs who buy in now, and can afford to wait.

[RandomGuy]

Hell, that's exactly what happened today. There were too many traders short on Citi and when it turned they had to buy back in at whatever price they could get to cover. Classic short squeeze. Volume was heavy the first hour and a half after opening while all the shorts were hitting the door and now the market is going sideways on tiny volume.

This is not a rally, it's a dead cat bounce and the markets going to continue to trend down.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3181146&postcount=2

[easjer]

Its great to see quotes from a movie you have never seen.

I still watch this thread regularly, but have nothing even remotely constructive to add. Just read and try to understand.

Ditto.

[MannyIsGod]

What do you mean it wasn't a rally? There was a huge rebound across the board. It wasn't just Citi.

[CosmicCowboy]

Of course it was a bounce, and a nice bounce at that. 5.8% is nothing to sneeze at, but after dropping 21% since Obama was inaugurated I wouldn't exactly bet the farm that we are suddenly a bull market.

Even a dead cat can bounce if it falls far enough and fast enough.

[MannyIsGod]

Of course it was a bounce, and a nice bounce at that. 5.8% is nothing to sneeze at, but after dropping 21% since Obama was inaugurated I wouldn't exactly bet the farm that we are suddenly a bull market.

Even a dead cat can bounce if it falls far enough and fast enough.

LOL @ everyone parroting the 21% figure. Nothing annoys me more at the moment than acting as though the financial crisis started in January. How much is it off from its peak and when was its peak again? how much did it lose in actual value as opposed to percentage. Which is greater?

The fact is there was good news today CC. It doesn't mean that the worst is behind us, but good news is good news. You seem to be doing your best to disregard it.

[peewee's lovechild]

Of course it was a bounce, and a nice bounce at that. 5.8% is nothing to sneeze at, but after dropping 21% since Obama was inaugurated I wouldn't exactly bet the farm that we are suddenly a bull market.

Even a dead cat can bounce if it falls far enough and fast enough.

Hey, it might rain for Steven and Sandra's wedding.

Should they blame Obama for that?

[Shelly]

I bought Citi in 2004 and at the time, the stock was $51 and some change.

*sigh*

[clambake]

I bought Citi in 2004 and at the time, the stock was $51 and some change.

*sigh*

just hang on to it. now is a great time to invest, if you can go the distance.

[Shelly]

just hang on to it. now is a great time to invest, if you can go the distance.

The problem is that because this is profit sharing, I can't put any of my own money in. So unless I have some cash in the account , (which I have some), I have to sell to buy.

I'm pretty diversified, so I'll just ride the wave.