RJ-haters roll-call!

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Okay, so I've been bitching about RJ for most of this year and I'm not the only one. I feel bad about it because I still really love the Spurs, but this guy just shits me to tears. I think the thing that pains me most is that he could've been a 15mil expiring contract at the deadline, instead he's overpaid deadwood that we're unlikely to move, and who has locked up the SF position with mediocrity for at least 3 years. Ugh.

Anyway, I hope he proves me wrong, but I felt like we RJ-haters (not 'hate' in the literal sense, but in the 'fan on the internet' sense) needed somewhere to gather, vent our spleens, and then point to in vindication when we're proven correct. Righteous indignation is minor compensation for the fact that he hurts and retards our team, but it's something.

;)

:lol

[Chieflion]

Do you want to be proven correct?

[z0sa]

Do you want to be proven correct?

Sure does seem like it.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Anyway, I hope he proves me wrong... ...righteous indignation is minor compensation for the fact that he hurts and retards our team, but it's something.


Do you want to be proven correct?

No, I don't, as I clearly spelled out. Please improve your reading comprehension. But I am unfortunately probably right. We shall see. :D :vomit:

BTW, you should play roto with us! Give it a go.

[ElNono]

I don't hate RJ. I don't even think he doesn't try. He's what he is, and unfortunately, so far I've seen no indication that he's what the Spurs need.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I don't hate RJ. I don't even think he doesn't try. He's what he is, and unfortunately, so far I've seen no indication that he's what the Spurs need.

And that's why I 'hate' him (once again: in the internet fan sense, not the want-to-ritually-disembowel-him-and-frolic-in-his-entrails sense).

Why re-sign him for 4 years when he's clearly "[not] what the Spurs need."

[EricB]

Yeah shoulda clearly let him go and started Alonzo Gee.

Would've been a huge move twords winning it all.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Yeah shoulda clearly let him go and started Alonzo Gee.

Would've been a huge move twords winning it all.

Although I didn't say that, did I?

Re-read the OP and get back to me when you actually think about it.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Although I didn't say that, did I?

Re-read the OP and get back to me when you actually think about it.

So, your idea is that we should have used his 15 Mil expiring to acquire a replacement wing via a trade, is this correct?

If so, who pays the luxury tax this season and the next?

Let's see what peja's expiring will fetch at the deadline.

[Leonard Curse]

im nervous too im not gonna lie, but what can we do now? we have to wait and im sure if pop can hell trade his ass if he can get a productive SF starter. thats if he doesnt pull through 4 us (lets give him some more time) but we cant start these threads already man!

[Leonard Curse]

yes i know its been a year but its not like he avrg. 0pts a game and 1 rebound c'mon i say lets wait until december and if not by then well... james anderson has to turn into the #1 pick for us haha

[ChumpDumper]

You really feel you didn't have any other place to vent?

[benefactor]

I don't hate RJ. I don't even think he doesn't try. He's what he is, and unfortunately, so far I've seen no indication that he's what the Spurs need.

[TJastal]

So, your idea is that we should have used his 15 Mil expiring to acquire a replacement wing via a trade, is this correct?

If so, who pays the luxury tax this season and the next?

Let's see what peja's expiring will fetch at the deadline.

The spurs also could have just bit the bullet, ownership can afford to pay the tax one solitary year. Not like there aren't a plethora of teams (11 others) doing so.

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/02/19/11-nba-teams-set-to-pay-luxury-tax/

[TJastal]

Hell even Robert Sarver is on the pay list lol. And here we have the spurs who's ownership would rather mortgage the next 3 years rather than bite the bullet for 1.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

The spurs also could have just bit the bullet, ownership can afford to pay the tax one solitary year. Not like there aren't a plethora of teams (11 others) doing so.

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/02/19/11-nba-teams-set-to-pay-luxury-tax/

How do you know the Spurs could afford to bite the bullet and pay more than $7 mil in lux tax, $7 mil more for RJ's old salary, while missing out on ~$3 mil from tax redistribution? We're talking about 17 million dollars for this season.

You don't know if they could afford it.In fact, every evidence points to the conclusion that they could not.

[Chieflion]

No, I don't, as I clearly spelled out. Please improve your reading comprehension. But I am unfortunately probably right. We shall see. :D :vomit:

BTW, you should play roto with us! Give it a go.

To be honest, that wasn't your original post, I fooled around a little when the original wasn't updated before I replied without hitting the refresh button, and I don't remember seeing that sentence until now. My reply was a minute after your edit, which is why I didn't see it. If it was already there, my apologies.

As of now, I am quite tied down and probably can't run 3 fantasy teams with the semester looming. Sorry, got to decline. If there is a spot next season, let me know.

[ezau]

It's the fucking pre-season for crying out loud. Let's reopen this thread 10-15 games into the season, shall we?

[mingus]

i'm giving myself a 10 games into the season threshold for RJ. if there's no improvement 10 games into the season, i don't think it'll ever work out for him and the Spurs.

that said i'm confident that his summer working on his jumpshot will pay off.

[TJastal]

How do you know the Spurs could afford to bite the bullet and pay more than $7 mil in lux tax, $7 mil more for RJ's old salary, while missing out on ~$3 mil from tax redistribution? We're talking about 17 million dollars for this season.

You don't know if they could afford it.In fact, every evidence points to the conclusion that they could not.

They could have (should have) let Bonner walk (he's a 5th spare big anyway) and saved 5 mil in salary/tax.

The spurs could have easily given that 5th big spot to Gist or Cousins.

Is mortgaging the next 3 years really worth saving 12 million in one year?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Is mortgaging the next 3 years really worth saving 12 million in one year?

I don't know, apparently the answer is yes.

It's not like the Spurs would have been able to get someone better than RJ if they let his contract expire, so they wouldn't be better from a basketball standpoint anyway. Don't know what you mean by mortgaging the next 3 years.

[TJastal]

I don't know, apparently the answer is yes.

It's not like the Spurs would have been able to get someone better than RJ if they let his contract expire, so they wouldn't be better from a basketball standpoint anyway. Don't know what you mean by mortgaging the next 3 years.

Richard Jefferson 2010 2011 2012 2013
$8,400,000 $9,282,000 $10,164,000 $11,046,000

2013 is a long ways away, and its pretty much gauranteed RJ will take that player option. If things don't work out as planned the spurs are stuck with him for 3 more years. That's what I mean.

But Holt will save a few mil this year so its all good apparently.

[z0sa]

No, I don't, as I clearly spelled out. Please improve your reading comprehension. But I am unfortunately probably right.

Everyone read that, it's just a weak excuse so you can "self-righteously" claim what you just said.

We all know this is so you and whoever chooses to join you can enjoy blurting out i told you so's to the spur fans who, throughout the season, hope he does well and choose to look at the positives instead of negatives (while you no doubt bitch and complain about him the majority of the time just so you can feel ... what? right?).

It's rather interesting how you call it the RJ-haters club. Immediately going with the extremely negative approach. You've even managed to convince yourself there's a "politically correct" form of 'hate.'

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

But Holt will save a few mil this year so its all good apparently.

Indeed.

It's easy to spend someone else's millions, though.

[Fabbs]

Indeed.

It's easy to spend someone else's millions, though.
What's the value of the team since poor Holt bought the Spurs?

[The_Worlds_finest]

Present and accounted for, until further notice

[RobinsontoDuncan]

This thread is so stupid.

Why the hell are all of you so eager to boast about hating a Spurs starter? I think it would be much more productive just appreciate what he does bring to the team and stop bitching about what he is not bringing to the team. You aren't paying his salary so just shut the fuck up and stop whining.

In the immortal words of Rahm Emanuel, Spurs fans are "fucking retarded"

[TimmehC]

i'm giving myself a 10 games into the season threshold for RJ. if there's no improvement 10 games into the season, i don't think it'll ever work out for him and the Spurs.

that said i'm confident that his summer working on his jumpshot will pay off.

This. It doesn't look good now, but things looked even worse last pre-season.

[yavozerb]

This thread is so stupid.

Why the hell are all of you so eager to boast about hating a Spurs starter? I think it would be much more productive just appreciate what he does bring to the team and stop bitching about what he is not bringing to the team. You aren't paying his salary so just shut the fuck up and stop whining.

In the immortal words of Rahm Emanuel, Spurs fans are "fucking retarded"

:tu..Unfortunatly this is the way it goes, some must feel the need to complain about something. That something here at ST is RJ and Bonner. No biggie really, just the way it is i guess...

[shingo_318]

a spoiled australian spurs fan? in your thread everyone pretended not to be a RJ-hater.

[baseline bum]

Okay, so I've been bitching about RJ for most of this year and I'm not the only one. I feel bad about it because I still really love the Spurs, but this guy just shits me to tears. I think the thing that pains me most is that he could've been a 15mil expiring contract at the deadline, instead he's overpaid deadwood that we're unlikely to move, and who has locked up the SF position with mediocrity for at least 3 years. Ugh.

Anyway, I hope he proves me wrong, but I felt like we RJ-haters (not 'hate' in the literal sense, but in the 'fan on the internet' sense) needed somewhere to gather, vent our spleens, and then point to in vindication when we're proven correct. Righteous indignation is minor compensation for the fact that he hurts and retards our team, but it's something.

;)

:lol

It's not so much that I hate Jefferson. It's just that herpes would probably contribute more to the team.

[pawe]

I like Bonner more than RJ right now. Yes, Im serious.

Bonner at least can spread the defense and draw out the big man. RJ was brought in to drive to the paint and provide the scoring the Spurs need when they go through their droughts. I really cant accept the fact that they are paying that much money for measly contribution.

[Obstructed_View]

i'm giving myself a 10 games into the season threshold for RJ. if there's no improvement 10 games into the season, i don't think it'll ever work out for him and the Spurs.

that said i'm confident that his summer working on his jumpshot will pay off.

I agree with the first part, but the very little I've seen of his jumpshot so far, coupled with Pop's infamous "you gotta shoot more" directive doesn't have me optimistic.

[bus driver]

i am not on that bus yet, but after looking at last night's box score; i am walking to the bus stop.

if he doesnt produce at least the in the first 10 games, then save me a seat.
:depressed

[mingus]

I agree with the first part, but the very little I've seen of his jumpshot so far, coupled with Pop's infamous "you gotta shoot more" directive doesn't have me optimistic.

his jumpshot probably looks good in practice, hence why pop is telling him to shoot more and when he's open. they mentioned in the game yesterday that he thinks waaaay to much. i think that's what it is all about for RJ. last year it was more mechanical than anything. this year he clearly has better shot mechanics, so that's one--and the biggest-- hurdle he's already jumped.

lets hope for the best. because without an RJ hitting those shots this team doesn't stand a chance.

[ohmwrecker]

I'm taking mental notes . . .

[ElNono]

I'm still actually somewhat unconcerned with his offense. I mean, I'll take whatever he can give us, but I don't want him to be a heir apparent to Bonner where his offensive contributions have to offset the subpar defense. If he can gives us consistent defense, the pressure on offense will diminish, and I think everyone will feel more comfortable.

[dunkman]

After the trade with the Bucks, RJ's 2 years for $30M contract was already "sunk" cost. The Spurs made a bad decision there.

If the new contract RJ signed with the Spurs was for $39M, from the point of RJ it was an $24M extension at $8M per year, which is around what Odom got.

From the point of the Spurs, without the extension, the Spurs would pay for RJ's first year $15M + $7M tax + $3M tax retribution = $25M. That was already sunk cost.

However, with the re-signing, the Spurs paid extra $14M for 3 additional years, which isn't that bad. That's less than the MLE, which RJ can justify.

The Spurs could have pulled a Boozer on RJ, but that obviously isn't their style.

[ElNono]

After the trade with the Bucks, RJ's 2 years for $30M contract was already "sunk" cost. The Spurs made a bad decision there.

If the new contract RJ signed with the Spurs was for $39M, from the point of RJ it was an $24M extension at $8M per year, which is around what Odom got.

From the point of the Spurs, without the extension, the Spurs would pay for RJ's first year $15M + $7M tax + $3M tax retribution = $25M. That was already sunk cost.

However, with the re-signing, the Spurs paid extra $14M for 3 additional years, which isn't that bad. That's less than the MLE, which RJ can justify.

The Spurs could have pulled a Boozer on RJ, but that obviously isn't their style.

It's not a sure thing the Spurs are going to be under the tax this season yet. So that Tax retribution is still speculative. I'm sure they're looking to be, but if, say, they offer a contract to Simmons, they'll most likely be over it by a bit.

There's also other numbers that are harder to calculate, but could contribute, and I don't think should be entirely overlooked. For example, a team making the WCF makes more money than a team that exits in the first round. Could RJ's talent be the difference? Well, when RJ was signed Pop implied as much.

Lastly, there are other future contracts that come into play because the team agreed to those figures.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that they saved money in the short run. I'm not so sure they did in the long run.

[Galileo]

Has RJ showed any signs of improvement on defense?

[hater]

RJ is shit. nothing else to say

Bonner + RJ = failure for the Spurs

[ohmwrecker]

This how these threads always go: "RJ sucks! I hate RJ! He's a bad fit! Bad contract! 4 years! He will never be what the Spurs need him to be! The Spurs will never win with RJ as the SF!"

Then comes the caveat: ". . . but, I really hope he proves me wrong . . . I hope RJ improves and can help the team. The Spurs success depends on RJ doing well. I love the Spurs."

Shit or get off the pot, you schizophrenic, bi-polar morons.

[hater]

Then comes the caveat: ". . . but, I really hope he proves me wrong . . . I hope RJ improves and can help the team. The Spurs success depends on RJ doing well. I love the Spurs."

wrong, I let that boat sail ages ago.

there is no caveat, unless you live in the moon

[ohmwrecker]

wrong, I let that boat sail ages ago.

there is no caveat, unless you live in the moon

They have the internet on the moon?!

[crc21209]

I personally dont hate the guy. He is what he is. We shall see if he really has improved once Game 1 of the regular season begins. I bet some of the same people in here bashing him are the ones I see at the games with RJ jerseys jumping up and down when he throws down a dunk...:lol

[hater]

They have the internet on the moon?!

well those lunatics that still beleive RJ will improve substantially gotta live somewhere!

[diego]

was discussing RJ last night with a couple friends (celtic, pacer fans). so i told them about his new shot, but we came to the conclusion that his problem is not really improving his skillset (he's not perfect, but he has skills), rather, the mental part. I hope his shot has improved too, but it wont matter much if he hasnt learned to play with more confidence, more toughness, and more aggression. like that bruce bowen guy :depressed

and though that is less likely than improving manual skills, i still have hope that RJ can do better in those areas, if only because we need him to. if/when a replacement comes i'll be happy to shit on him but now he's basically all we got at SF and, well, he's trying.

[Obstructed_View]

This how these threads always go: "RJ sucks! I hate RJ! He's a bad fit! Bad contract! 4 years! He will never be what the Spurs need him to be! The Spurs will never win with RJ as the SF!"

Then comes the caveat: ". . . but, I really hope he proves me wrong . . . I hope RJ improves and can help the team. The Spurs success depends on RJ doing well. I love the Spurs."

Shit or get off the pot, you schizophrenic, bi-polar morons.

Nobody says they hate him. They simply point out how terrible he plays, then point to how terrible his contract is in so many ways. No Spurs fan wants RJ to bring down the team just so they can be right. First priority is always team success. Doesn't change the analysis, which currently hasn't changed from "he sucks".

[z0sa]

Nobody says they hate him. They simply point out how terrible he plays, then point to how terrible his contract is in so many ways. No Spurs fan wants RJ to bring down the team just so they can be right. First priority is always team success. Doesn't change the analysis, which currently hasn't changed from "he sucks".

I mostly agree, but the bolded part: is this not the RJ-hater's fanclub thread? Explaining away one's "hate" as founded upon logic is stupid, imo. Logic dictates one supports a starter on what he hopes to be at least a fringe contender, regardless of his shitty contract (which should be pinned on the FO) or his expected suckiness (which is just pessimism). Just my .2 though.

[jjktkk]

I agree with the first part, but the very little I've seen of his jumpshot so far, coupled with Pop's infamous "you gotta shoot more" directive doesn't have me optimistic.

Infamous? Wouldn't most coaches try to instill more confidence in a scorer whose struggling with his jumper, by giving him the green light to shoot more? Pop needs more scoring out of RJ, so I don't see a problem with Pop trying to boost RJ's confidence.

[jjktkk]

i mostly agree, but the bolded part: Is this not the rj-hater's fanclub thread? Explaining away one's "hate" as founded upon logic is stupid, imo. Logic dictates one supports a starter on what he hopes to be at least a fringe contender, regardless of his shitty contract (which should be pinned on the fo) or his expected suckiness (which is just pessimism). Just my .2 though.


+1.

[DPG21920]

I mostly agree, but the bolded part: is this not the RJ-hater's fanclub thread? Explaining away one's "hate" as founded upon logic is stupid, imo. Logic dictates one supports a starter on what he hopes to be at least a fringe contender, regardless of his shitty contract (which should be pinned on the FO) or his expected suckiness (which is just pessimism). Just my .2 though.

Haters fan club is not referring to literally hating RJ. The expected suckiness is not just pessimism considering we have seen what RJ can do in the Spurs system.

Could he improve and does everyone want that (or most everyone)? Yes. Is there any real strong indication of that at this point? Not really.

[ElNono]

I mostly agree, but the bolded part: is this not the RJ-hater's fanclub thread? Explaining away one's "hate" as founded upon logic is stupid, imo. Logic dictates one supports a starter on what he hopes to be at least a fringe contender, regardless of his shitty contract (which should be pinned on the FO) or his expected suckiness (which is just pessimism). Just my .2 though.

There have always been haters, no matter what. Happened with Beno/Hairston, happens with Tony/Manu/Bonner/RJ, happens in other teams. It's just part of sports. There was a pretty funny article about the different kind of basketball fans not long ago that described it to a T.

[z0sa]

Haters fan club is not referring to literally hating RJ.

Yeah, we've gone over this song and dance a couple times now. Refer to the thread title/starter for inquiry into why he chose "hate" if he did not mean hate, and others who join such a "club", if they do not hate him.

Why not the "Hope RJ improves" roll call? Or, God forbid, the "FO made a huge mistake" rollcall? Those lacking in "vindication"? It's so much easier just saying "oh, we hate everything about RJ, not really, but we do, and we'll gladly point to this thread when he fails." Gladly and when being the keywords.

[DPG21920]

Yeah, we've gone over this song and dance a couple times now. Refer to the thread title/starter for inquiry into why he chose "hate" if he did not mean hate, and others who join such a "club", if they do not hate him.

Why not the "Hope RJ improves" roll call? Or, God forbid, the "FO made a huge mistake" rollcall? Those lacking in "vindication"? It's so much easier just saying "oh, we hate everything about RJ, not really, but we do."

:lol You are digging too deep. Hater is a common term. Slang if you will. When I call you a "G", it does not mean I literally think you are the letter "G". It is the implication of the word that matters.

He explained what he meant by it. It is not that big of deal. It is referring more to a group of people that hate the basketball ramifications of RJ on the Spurs.

[z0sa]

There have always been haters, no matter what. Happened with Beno/Hairston, happens with Tony/Manu/Bonner/RJ, happens in other teams. It's just part of sports. There was a pretty funny article about the different kind of basketball fans not long ago that described it to a T.

Hey, everyone's entitled to an opinion. Starting threads about it, and seemingly reveling in it, invites criticism.

[z0sa]

:lol You are digging too deep.

Disagree. Hate is a very black and white word. I do agree he explained it away (in an edit, it seems) very quickly.

[TJastal]

Infamous? Wouldn't most coaches try to instill more confidence in a scorer whose struggling with his jumper, by giving him the green light to shoot more? Pop needs more scoring out of RJ, so I don't see a problem with Pop trying to boost RJ's confidence.

I'd rather Pop be pushing him to play stellar defense rather than fire up low % shots all game long.

[ElNono]

Here you go. Extracted from RealGM:

The Old Timer: A personal favorite of mine, usually a middle/elderly aged man who seems like he'll watch a modern NBA playoff game with you simply for the sake of complaining about how the game is now "soft" or watered down compared to what it used to be back during his time. Will never stop to appreciate a fancy dunk by LeBron or an impossible shot by Kobe. Will simply wait for something questionable to happen so he can start talking about the 1982 NBA Finals again and how it was so much better than now.

The Band Wagoner: Does this really need an explanation? Someone who rarely watches Basketball but hops on a bandwagon, typically when a big star comes to his city, or someone who jumps from team to team.

Mr. Fundamentals: The guy who's truly a college basketball fan at heart/played or coached basketball and therefore thinks he knows certain things about the game that no one else does, and that he's some kind of basketball genius. Will often point out how there's too much 1on1 play going on in an NBA game or that a play a team did was to "street" and not "fundamental" enough. Generally tries to act like he knows more about the game than you do.

The Player Hater: Those who hate a player for no particular reason other than to jump on the bandwagon. Most commonly seen with Kobe Bryant, these people may not've ever watched a full basketball game in their life but will sit down with you in the living room constantly expressing their detest for "The Black Mamba," knowing that deep down inside the only reason they're doing it is because so many other people do it, with those other people being just as big of a follower as he is.

The Player Lover: Those who blindly love a certain player, with the reasons for that being variable. They disguise themselves as a fan of the player's team but in reality they only view their games to see their favorite player perform. They'll often gloat and be loud mouths about how awesome he is and how much better he is than the rest of the League, and will defend said player to the death.

Warriors Fan: Someone who's only interested in the gimmicky run and gun style of basketball that the Suns and Warriors play and will quickly change the channel if he views a game that involves 2 teams actually playing half-court basketball with well coordinated defenses. These people most likely thought Game 7 of the Finals "sucked" because a shot wasn't being made every other possession, and physical defense was being played.

The Desperate Girl: Another personal favorite, the girl who jumps into a crowd of guys at a Sports Bar acting like she actually follows the NBA for the sake of impressing someone. Throughout the course of the game will quickly be exposed for her sheer lack of knowledge on the sport (example: we once had a girl at our bar proclaim that it'd be a sad day when LeBron leaves the Lakers) but will try to laugh it off or use sex appeal to take your mind off how ignorant and desperate she truly is.

Mr. Perfect: Those who want every NBA player to act like a cardboard cut-out with no personality similar to Tim Duncan.

Closet Racist: Typically middle/elderly aged white dudes who watch a game and scoff at everything black players do and say but will quickly applaud a white player's actions. For example, during a game in the Celtics-Magic series we had my friend's father tell us that KG is an "ignorant thug who does nothing but scream and beat his chest"...but then applauded JJ Redick for doing the same thing like 5 minutes later because he was "showing heart." :lol:

Hollinger Stats Geek: Typically people who spend a little too much time analyzing John Hollinger's biased statistics. They believe that PER is the only way to judge how great a basketball player is, and that if Player A's PER is lower than Player B's PER he's automatically inferior to Player B.

"I don't watch Games" Stats Geek: Those who try to tell you everything that happened in a game via the boxscore rather than watching it. Will often make themselves look very, very, stupid in the process.

Mr. Next Anointed One: Those who automatically declare every player their favorite team drafts as the next great. Will overrate the crap out of him throughout the off-season and will go ga-ga over every little basket he makes in Summer League. Like the Player Fan, will typically be loud mouths about how great this player is and will defend him to death.

Mr. Hypothetical: Those who use completely hypothetical and typically improbable events to prove some kind of point. For example, "Kobe's not a true winner. Put Vince Carter in his place during the early 2000's and he would've had 3 rings too."

The Closet Hockey Fan: The guy who acts like he's a fan of the NBA but throughout the course of the game will do NOTHING but bash the sport. "Ugh, too much fouling going on by the refs." "Ugh, what's so special about a 7 foot fatass like Shaq dunking?" "Ugh, this game sucks." "I don't understand how you could have fun watching 2 teams trade baskets all day." From personal experience, in reality these guys are NHL fans who're unhappy with the fact that ESPN completely dumped their sport and now pretty much only promote the NBA and NFL (with some baseball on the side.)

The Conspiracy Theorist: Those who believe that the NBA is run by some kind of secret corporation and that Playoff games are rigged to put big market teams and/or teams that generate big ratings in the Finals. Little do they realize that the San Antonio Spurs, a team that has won 4 championships this generation, was neither big market nor a strong ratings draw. Little do they realize that if the NBA truly was rigged, then the Spurs-Nets Final would've never happened, because it generated the worst ratings ever, was between 2 horrible markets and was all around unbearable to watch.

Mr. Overeact: When you're on a winning streak it's title time here we come! When you're on a losing streak it's trade X player and fire the coach! This poster can also be found in game threads howling in despair or squealing with glee with every play. Often they take an isolated play and turn it into a full blown scouting report that details every nuance of a players ability, skill set and even psychological profile.

The YouTube Scout: This poster feels that from his extensive youtube searches and hours of watching these grainy 3 minute videos that he is the master talent evaluator. Also being armed with bookmarks to every draft site known to man he could best any of the GMs who have armies of scouts and oodles of video to review as well as countless dollars to use in this endeavor.

~~~~~~~~~

:lol

[ohmwrecker]

Nobody says they hate him. They simply point out how terrible he plays, then point to how terrible his contract is in so many ways. No Spurs fan wants RJ to bring down the team just so they can be right. First priority is always team success. Doesn't change the analysis, which currently hasn't changed from "he sucks".

Some people say they hate him. I mean, the thread is called "RJ haters", right? He did play poorly at times last year. He also played well enough, at times, that some are willing to give him another shot. I fully expected the "haters" to rag on RJ from the opening tip of the preseason. Even the ones who said they thought he could/would improve. I am not surprised at all.

I'm not really sure how someone can separate an unreasonable, vitriolic hatred of a singular player from a rational, sane support of their team. It is incongruous at best.

I got mad last year when RJ made a bonehead play or failed to rotate properly or looked like a lost puppy. I just wanted to shake him and yell, "Snap out of it, man!" During the course of a game I can get mad at any Spur who is fucking up. From Duncan on down. I understand the frustration.
What I don't understand is the desperate, permanent negativity that permeates this board like a deep, ominous blackness that will swallow us all.

I just refuse to be that negative. I can be realistic and positive simultaneously. It's not hard.

One player's individual performance is not going to make or break this team. They are all going to have come together as a unit to make any noise this season.

[z0sa]

I'd rather Pop be pushing him to play stellar defense rather than fire up low % shots all game long.

Why do you think he's pushing him to be strong on offense? Apparently you find that to be a miscalculation - what has he missed?

[z0sa]

:lol I understand your point and it is well-taken, Nono. I just think the tone of defeat and pessimism in the OP is simply ridiculous. There's being a "hater" for the right reasons, which is what O_V was getting at. Vindication isn't one of them.

[z0sa]

I just refuse to be that negative. I can be realistic and positive simultaneously. It's not hard.

Well said. There's a fine line that, IMO, this thread crossed.

[ElNono]

:lol I understand your point and it is well-taken, Nono. I just think the tone of defeat and pessimism in the OP is simply ridiculous. There's being a "hater" for the right reasons, which is what O_V was getting at. Vindication isn't one of them.

IMO, it's ridiculous right now in the preseason. I mean, harping on RJ's shortcomings is something we've done all offseason, but I think it's premature to start threads like this without the benefit of a ten or so games (at least in the RJ case).

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I started this thread because I noticed that other Spurs fans, people who had bitched about the RJ in the off-season, were still doing so in other threads. I figured we should have a place to vent. On the flipside, if we're wrong we can breathe a sigh of relief when it happens, and everyone else can point and laugh at us.


It's the fucking pre-season for crying out loud. Let's reopen this thread 10-15 games into the season, shall we?

Sure. I still hope he improves. It's just very rare that a post-30yo dog learns any new tricks. MJ and Kobe did it. The jury is out on RJ.


To be honest, that wasn't your original post, I fooled around a little when the original wasn't updated before I replied without hitting the refresh button, and I don't remember seeing that sentence until now. My reply was a minute after your edit, which is why I didn't see it. If it was already there, my apologies.

As of now, I am quite tied down and probably can't run 3 fantasy teams with the semester looming. Sorry, got to decline. If there is a spot next season, let me know.

Fair call. I did edit it straight away because it didn't say what I meant.


I don't know, apparently the answer is yes.

It's not like the Spurs would have been able to get someone better than RJ if they let his contract expire, so they wouldn't be better from a basketball standpoint anyway. Don't know what you mean by mortgaging the next 3 years.

We gave a 40mil contract to a guy everyone agrees deserved no more than the MLE. Thus, the contract is close to untradeable.

Because RJ has such a high contract, he has to play. Thus, he has a mortgage over the SF slot. He's there to stay, and given his age he's not likely to improve. But he will prevent our team from going young at the 3 through FA or next year's draft, which is what we should've done.

Note: I'm not criticising the original trade for RJ - that made sense. It's the 4-yr extension that's incomprehensible.


Everyone read that, it's just a weak excuse so you can "self-righteously" claim what you just said. (1)

We all know this is so you and whoever chooses to join you can enjoy blurting out i told you so's to the spur fans who, throughout the season, hope he does well and choose to look at the positives instead of negatives (while you no doubt bitch and complain about him the majority of the time just so you can feel ... what? right?). (2)

It's rather interesting how you call it the RJ-haters club. Immediately going with the extremely negative approach. You've even managed to convince yourself there's a "politically correct" form of 'hate.'

(1) Well, duh. I spelled that out in the OP. You seem to presume that this isn't common practice at ST and the internet in general! :lol

(2) I don't intend to keep this thread on the front page all season. I created it so that it can be pulled out when the mainstream bitching starts in earnest.

(3) As I explained rather humorously, this is fan hate, not real I-hope-you-die-in-a-plane-crash hate. This thread, while seriously a dig at RJ, is also meant to be a bit of fun. Gallows humour, if you will.


This thread is so stupid.

Why the hell are all of you so eager to boast about hating a Spurs starter? I think it would be much more productive just appreciate what he does bring to the team and stop bitching about what he is not bringing to the team. You aren't paying his salary so just shut the fuck up and stop whining.

In the immortal words of Rahm Emanuel, Spurs fans are "fucking retarded"

So, I should toe the line and rah-rah-rah because that's more productive. Bullshit. This is also productive - it's a place to laugh about the Spurs' FO's worst decision since Scola. They don't make many mistakes, but this is a big one that is hamstringing the franchise, so I'm gonna talk about it.


a spoiled australian spurs fan? in your thread everyone pretended not to be a RJ-hater.

I criticise an illogical decision by the FO so I'm "spoiled". Make some sense or GTFOH.


I'm still actually somewhat unconcerned with his offense. I mean, I'll take whatever he can give us, but I don't want him to be a heir apparent to Bonner where his offensive contributions have to offset the subpar defense. If he can gives us consistent defense, the pressure on offense will diminish, and I think everyone will feel more comfortable.

Well said. I'd take that.


This how these threads always go: "RJ sucks! I hate RJ! He's a bad fit! Bad contract! 4 years! He will never be what the Spurs need him to be! The Spurs will never win with RJ as the SF!"

Then comes the caveat: ". . . but, I really hope he proves me wrong . . . I hope RJ improves and can help the team. The Spurs success depends on RJ doing well. I love the Spurs."

Shit or get off the pot, you schizophrenic, bi-polar morons.

Um, no. I do hope RJ improves like we need him too. Rationally, I don't see it happening. See the difference? One involves "hope", and irrational feeling, the other logic.

Learn the language or don't bother replying.


Why do you guys call him RJ when Dick fits so much better?

:lmao

Best comment in the thread so far by a Faker fan. Shameful.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

You guys have no sense of humour. It isn't meant to be deadly serious - it's gallows humour about the fact that we're stuck with this untradeable 30yo who is a terrible fit for our team, which most of us could see before he was re-signed. Resigning him doesn't change the fact he's not a fit.

This thread is about poking fun at RJ, and it'll no doubt disappear then come back a few times during the season. I didn't throw it out there because of one pre-season game, but because I noticed other posters still bitching about RJ in random threads all over the place. I thought this might unite them in one place! :lol

[objective]

Sure. I still hope he improves. It's just very rare that a post-30yo dog learns any new tricks. MJ and Kobe did it. The jury is out on RJ.

Incorrect.

The jury already returned their verdict and found RJ guilty of being a massively overpaid, underperforming contract albatross who could cost the Spurs retaining current players and the opportunity costs of future players acquired through trade while being a poor playoff performer.

RJ is free to appeal the decision at the end of the season.

[ohmwrecker]

Um, no. I do hope RJ improves like we need him too. Rationally, I don't see it happening. See the difference? One involves "hope", and irrational feeling, the other logic.

Learn the language or don't bother replying.

So, you admit to your duality on this issue. I don't think I misconstrued anything. Maybe it's your Aussie accent?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Yeah, we've gone over this song and dance a couple times now. Refer to the thread title/starter for inquiry into why he chose "hate" if he did not mean hate, and others who join such a "club", if they do not hate him.

Why not the "Hope RJ improves" roll call? Or, God forbid, the "FO made a huge mistake" rollcall? Those lacking in "vindication"? It's so much easier just saying "oh, we hate everything about RJ, not really, but we do, and we'll gladly point to this thread when he fails." Gladly and when being the keywords.


...I felt like we RJ-haters (not 'hate' in the literal sense, but in the 'fan on the internet' sense) needed somewhere to gather...

Reading comprehension really is a problem for you, eh? :rolleyes

People, you can't just read what someone writes and then pretend they wrote something else. I clearly explained the way I was using the term 'hate'. And again here:


...I 'hate' him (once again: in the internet fan sense, not the want-to-ritually-disembowel-him-and-frolic-in-his-entrails sense).

...which pointed out that I'm not serious about the 'hate'. It's fan hate. Fans 'love' and fans 'hate', it's what we do. It's just annoying when the hate is directed towards a player you are meant to love because he's on your side.

At the end of the day, at least I'm not being boring and predictable and hating on Bonner! :lmao

[ohmwrecker]

This thread is about poking fun at RJ, and it'll no doubt disappear then come back a few times during the season. I didn't throw it out there because of one pre-season game, but because I noticed other posters still bitching about RJ in random threads all over the place. I thought this might unite them in one place! :lol

We already have one of those that gets bumped by it's OP on a pretty regular basis.

[z0sa]

Reading comprehension really is a problem for you, eh? :rolleyes

It is not my comprehension that is this thread's problem; it is your blatant misuse of the term, and your obvious reveling in the coming "unfortunate" vindication.

Have fun enjoying RJ fail, bro. I'll leave you and others who wish to be called "spurs starter aka RJ haters" alone.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

We already have one of those that gets bumped by it's OP on a pretty regular basis.

Oh well, we've got twq now, haven't we? I took the off-season off, so not knowing that is on me.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

It is not my comprehension that is this thread's problem; it is your blatant misuse of the term, and your obvious reveling in the coming "unfortunate" vindication.

Have fun enjoying RJ fail, bro. I'll leave you and others who wish to be called "spurs starter aka RJ haters" alone.

I won't be 'enjoying' his failure, I'll be laughing bitterly at it, which is better than wanting to tear my fucking hair out about it. Gallows humour is a coping mechanism.

[ElNono]

Ultimately, these threads are merely a testament of the continuing trend... I'm sure they'll die down and be replaced with reverse-vindication threads should RJ turn his game around...

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Ultimately, these threads are merely a testament of the continuing trend... I'm sure they'll die down and be replaced with reverse-vindication should RJ turn his game around...

...and I sincerely hope that's the case. You can all point and laugh at what a fucktard I am, and I'll have to say: "well, yeah, fair enough".

I started this because I saw people still spraying at RJ all over the forum. None of them have showed up in here though! :lmao

[ElNono]

I will add that the polarization due to what transpired with RJ was one of the main topics this offseason, for a number of reasons, so it's only expected to see stuff like this.
I would say that if you don't want to participate, you have the choice not to.

[ohmwrecker]

Oh well, we've got twq now, haven't we? I took the off-season off, so not knowing that is on me.

The Washington Quarterly? Stop making me look up all these abbreviations, dammit!


Ultimately, these threads are merely a testament of the continuing trend... I'm sure they'll die down and be replaced with reverse-vindication threads should RJ turn his game around...

If and when that happens, I'll eat my hat.

[z0sa]

Enjoying his failure is better than wanting to tear my fucking hair out about it. Gallows humour is a coping mechanism.

Hey, enjoy his failure, and don't forget the vindication you've publicly promised yourself. Won't it feel good when you're right?

[z0sa]

I will add that the polarization due to what transpired with RJ was one of the main topics this offseason, for a number of reasons, so it's only expected to see stuff like this.
I would say that if you don't want to participate, you have the choice not to.

One may choose to participate how he wishes. :toast

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Hey, enjoy his failure, and don't forget the vindication you've publicly promised yourself. Won't it feel good when you're right?

Except, as soon as I read that I realised I won't enjoy his failure, I'll hate it less by having somewhere to vent about it, and that's why I immediately changed that post. Here's what I changed the post two and what I really meant:


I won't be 'enjoying' his failure, I'll be laughing bitterly at it, which is better than wanting to tear my fucking hair out about it. Gallows humour is a coping mechanism.

[z0sa]

Except, as soon as I read that I realised I won't enjoy his failure, I'll hate it less by having somewhere to vent about it, and that's why I immediately changed that post.

Kind of like how you immediately changed the OP to explain your "hate" away.

Color me surprised. I will leave this thread alone now, though.

[ElNono]

One may choose to participate how he wishes. :toast

No question...

[ElNono]

Be prepared to 'heat of the moment' threads though... :lol

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Kind of like how you immediately changed the OP to explain your "hate" away.

Color me surprised. I will leave this thread alone now, though.

No, I re-wrote the OP because it wasn't reflecting what I wanted it to, but the bit about 'hate' wasn't changed at all.

Do you enjoy these pedantic excursions of yours? I think you're here not because you're outraged for RJ and that a fan would 'hate' on one of their team's players, but because you've always enjoyed having a go at me.

Why don't you go and lecture some Bonner haters? Don't save all of your bile and pedantry for me! :lmao

[DeadlyDynasty]

Leave RJ alone!

kHmvkRoEowc

[MaNu4Tres]

This thread is just :lol

To defend myself and friends I associate with that were for R.J being resigned:

-Did we think RJ's play was worthy of the 40 million dollar deal? No we didn't.

-Was RJ the most realistic option for the Spurs this off-season? Yes he was. That is the realistic reality that took place. Not only was he was the best option, but his new deal saved Holt roughly 25 million.

-Do we think he has the chance to improve in his second season? Sure we do. His three point shooting was non-existent from February to the end of the year last year. Any amount of 3 point shooting will be an improvement.

-Does RJ's contract effect the Spurs from adding a significant (more than the MLE) free agent in the near future? No it doesn't. Not with Tim and Manu still on this team for two more seasons. Spurs would have just around the MLE to add anyone significant in the off-season via free agency if either scenario played out.

-Does his deal effect the Spurs from resigning Blair and Hill when their contracts are up? No it doesn't. Their deals are up when Manu's contract is off the books. Spurs will have plenty of money that off-season (30+million in cap room) and will have the nice 11 million dollar expiring contact to use in a trade from that off-season til February. How is that a bad rebuilding situation?


These are the reasons why I was for the R.J signing. I thought from the very get go, he would be the most realistic and best option since the majority of the MLE was going to go to Splitter anyway. Realizing this reality and the fact that R.J's contract doesn't necessarily effect the Spurs rebuilding process and doesn't effect the Hill or Blair being extended whenever that day comes in 3 years is why I was for it. His contract also doesn't necessarily effect Parker being resigned if Parker's new deal is front-loaded (which 95% of contracts are), since Tim's contract is off the books 2 years from now.

If Parker is resigned then yeah R.J's contract might effect Hill and Blair to be both extended. But you have to remember Manu's and Tim's contracts will be off the books by then and if Parker is resigned then I don't think Hill will be a Spur that much longer anyway.


My whole debate wasn't if R.J would improve or not in his second season. It was solely based off the reality of the situation now and the near future.

[Fabbs]

Leave RJ alone!

kHmvkRoEowc
:lol ^^^
When will you PopApologists ever get it?
When L.A. Flamers are happy the Spurs did something, it isn't good.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138817&highlight=PopApologists

[ohmwrecker]

Ah, Fabbs . . . the voice of reason.

[z0sa]

Do you enjoy these pedantic excursions of yours?

Translation: "Can we get back to the hating now?"

Yes, you may. Let it be duly noted I have never sparred with you.

[ElNono]

-Does his deal effect the Spurs from resigning Blair and Hill when their contracts are up?

Can you re-answer this question with a max contract for Tony Parker in the books under the current CBA rules (which is all we can use to speculate right now)?

[MaNu4Tres]

Can you re-answer this question with a max contract for Tony Parker in the books under the current CBA rules (which is all we can use to speculate right now)?

Read the whole thing above. I answered that.

Let me add-- If Blair and Hill are extended and if Spurs resign Parker-- R.J's contract will be expiring when that day comes . So it doesn't really effect the situation, considering both of Blair and Hill's deals will more than likely be front-loaded. ( Thinking worse case scenario.)

[ElNono]

Read the whole thing above. I answered that.

I don't think you did. Don't forget that for 10+ years old players, the max salary starts at 35% of the salary cap (for this season it would be $20,315,400). You have to add yearly increases to that.
Also, are we going to carry only 7 players?

[ElNono]

Read the whole thing above. I answered that.

Let me add-- If Blair and Hill are extended and if Spurs resign Parker-- R.J's contract will be expiring when that day comes . So it doesn't really effect the situation, considering both of Blair and Hill's deals will more than likely be front-loaded. ( Thinking worse case scenario.)

Well, let me add I think we won't be competing for championships at that point anyways (once TD and Manu ride into the sunset), so paying a 34 y/o RJ whatever might be part of the plan to tank and rank up in the lottery then...

[DeadlyDynasty]

:lol ^^^
When will you PopApologists ever get it?
When L.A. Flamers are happy the Spurs did something, it isn't good.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138817&highlight=PopApologists

/thread. In case the RJ lovers haven't noticed, the rest of the WC celebrated when he signed his new deal.:toast

[ElNono]

One more thing, I'm not really emotionally tied to the Spurs finances. To me, what could have been different was keeping RJ on his old deal and see if you could get something for the expiring. This deal is what it is, and it's not going to get undone, so it's really water under the bridge at this point.

It does bother me if the guy doesn't show up though. I'm fully aware that if there's any small crack in the championship window, he's going to have to be a significant part of getting there.

[MaNu4Tres]

I don't think you did. Don't forget that for 10+ years old players, the max salary starts at 35% of the salary cap (for this season it would be $20,315,400). You have to add yearly increases to that.
Also, are we going to carry only 7 players?

:lol @ the proposed scenario where Parker earns 20.3 million in a year. That's unrealistic bro. Sorry but it is.

Also, Tim and Manu's contracts worth over 35 million in salary will be off the books by then. Spurs will be able to afford to fill out roster spots more than you obviously believe, even with an expiring contract worth 11 million still on the books.

You are acting like R.J's contract is 10 years in length. It's not.

[objective]

-Does his deal effect the Spurs from resigning Blair and Hill when their contracts are up? No it doesn't. Their deals are up when Manu's contract is off the books. Spurs will have plenty of money that off-season (30+million in cap room) and will have the nice 11 million dollar expiring contact to use in a trade from that off-season til February. How is that a bad rebuilding situation?

I'm having a hard time agreeing with your math.

Hill is an RFA in the summer of 2012. He could take the QO and stay on for one more year. But Hill is as sure a candidate as there ever was for a team making him an offer betting that his team won't be able to afford him.

Even re-signing TD at a reduced rate (75% of current), and convincing Parker to just keep his salary in line with today's at standard increasing increments, the Spurs could very well be over $65 million in commitments without Hill's paltry QO, not including future firsts or future MLEs or LLEs and with only 8 playuers.

[MaNu4Tres]

It does bother me if the guy doesn't show up though..

I agree completely. Blackjack can tell you I've bitched about R.J's play during 2 of the pre-season games.

It still doesn't change my understanding of the reality of whole the situation.

[ElNono]

:lol @ the proposed scenario where Parker earns 20.3 million in a year. That's unrealistic bro. Sorry but it is.

Sorry, but that's what a max contract looks like nowadays. I didn't make up the numbers, go read the current CBA.
Is it Tony worth it? I don't know. Will he take less? I don't know either.
Will the Spurs have a shot without Tony? Definitely not.


Also, Tim and Manu's contracts worth over 35 million in salary will be off the books by then. Spurs will be able to afford to fill out roster spots more than you obviously believe, even with an expiring contract worth 11 million still on the books.

The question is going to be what the CBA looks like then. We also don't know what Hill or Blair will look like by then or how much money is going to take to re-sign either.


You are acting like R.J's contract is 10 years in length. It's not.

Don't change the subject. RJ's contract overlaps Hill or Blair, and that's what we're talking about. Saying that's a given that contract is not going to hinder resigning either is really a big question mark right now. You're assuming there won't be a hard cap in place, and that's far from sure. If there is? How much are those 10 million going to push against it?

We can talk about it when the next CBA is in place.

[benefactor]

This how these threads always go: "RJ sucks! I hate RJ! He's a bad fit! Bad contract! 4 years! He will never be what the Spurs need him to be! The Spurs will never win with RJ as the SF!"

Then comes the caveat: ". . . but, I really hope he proves me wrong . . . I hope RJ improves and can help the team. The Spurs success depends on RJ doing well. I love the Spurs."

Shit or get off the pot, you schizophrenic, bi-polar morons.
:lol

So if we don't just love and accept Dick we hate the Spurs? Your are hitting that next level in your relationship with RJ.

[MaNu4Tres]

RJ's contract overlaps Hill or Blair

By one year when it's expiring. Big deal.

[ElNono]

I agree completely. Blackjack can tell you I've bitched about R.J's play during 2 of the pre-season games.

It still doesn't change my understanding of the reality of whole the situation.

I don't have to ask Black... I've noticed it myself in your posts... :toast

[ElNono]

By one year when it's expiring. Big deal.

Well, we can't let RJ's contract expire before we can resign either. So yeah, it could be a big deal.

[MaNu4Tres]

Well, we can't let RJ's contract expire before we can resign either. So yeah, it could be a big deal.

Spurs can go over the cap to resign(extend) their own players. RJ's contract doesn't have to expire in order to extend Hill and Blair (if Spurs payroll is at the peak of the cap;under the luxury tax). So it's not really a big deal.

The only way it could be somewhat of a deal is if Spurs give Parker your proposed 20 million dollar salary and resign Tim and Manu to modest deals or if Spurs are in a situation where they are close to exceeding the luxury tax. (Which doesn't look to be a realistic scenario.)

[objective]

how would one year not be a big deal?

if one of the biggest arguments for giving RJ that deal was that the Spurs couldn't afford the one year of big salary commitments in 10-11, how are they supposed to afford one year of big salary commitments for 12-13?

[ElNono]

Spurs can go over the cap to resign(extend) their own players. RJ's contract doesn't have to expire in order to extend Hill and Blair (if Spurs payroll is at the peak of the cap;under the luxury tax). So it's not really a big deal.

The only way it could be somewhat of a deal is if Spurs give Parker your proposed 20 million dollar salary and resign Tim and Manu to modest deals or if Spurs are in a situation where they are close to exceeding the luxury tax. (Which doesn't look to be a realistic scenario.)

At this point, we don't even know if there's going to be a luxury tax anymore (and I would say it's a fairly realistic scenario that there won't be, considering what Stern has been trying to sell about the new CBA).

That's why I said this deal is what it is. It can easily come bite you in the ass later on, something that wouldn't have happened if RJ would have been a $15 million expiring this season. But he's not, so I guess we'll deal with whatever happens when it happens.

As far as Tony goes, there's the possibility that he will be willing to sign for less than max with the new CBA looming, but it's also not a given. I think the Spurs understand that the Duncan era comes to a close if Tony isn't back next season, so both sides are going to have some degree of leverage.

[objective]

If Parker really demanded 20 a year, RJ's continued contract could be the nail that slammed Duncan's window beyond shut.

And Parker at the max of whatever the new CBA allows is not unreasonable compared to what players get. Someone out there could be willing to pay it. The Knicks only have Felton under contract for one more year and are a team that would eat it without care.

[MaNu4Tres]

how would one year not be a big deal?


Because that year would be 2013-2014 (complete different scenario than 2010-2011), Tim Duncan will be 38 years old, Manu will be 37 years old; most likely retired. Spurs won't be contenders. Having a contract on the books for just one year doesn't necessarily spell death to any rebuilding process that will be in full force by then.

[Obstructed_View]

I mostly agree, but the bolded part: is this not the RJ-hater's fanclub thread? Explaining away one's "hate" as founded upon logic is stupid, imo. Logic dictates one supports a starter on what he hopes to be at least a fringe contender, regardless of his shitty contract (which should be pinned on the FO) or his expected suckiness (which is just pessimism). Just my .2 though.

If I have to explain to you what "hater" means then maybe you need to go find a new Internets.

[Obstructed_View]

Infamous? Wouldn't most coaches try to instill more confidence in a scorer whose struggling with his jumper, by giving him the green light to shoot more? Pop needs more scoring out of RJ, so I don't see a problem with Pop trying to boost RJ's confidence.

Pop said the same thing to Mighty Mouse, and he quickly went from being a pretty good backup point guard to the most useless player player the Spurs had in years. Relatively speaking, the Spurs have been circling the bowl ever since Pop got it in his head to tell guys to just keep chucking. Telling RJ to do it is just stupid. RJs offense isn't what's going to make a difference to this team.

[objective]

Because that year would be 2013-2014 (complete different scenario than 2010-2011), Tim Duncan will be 38 years old, Manu will be 37 years old; most likely retired. Spurs won't be contenders. Having a contract on the books for just one year doesn't necessarily spell death to any rebuilding process that will be in full force by then.

I'm talking about 2012-2013. The Hill RFA period you're missing.

Manu is under contract. Duncan if he sticks by his 'wheels fall off' statement will be there. Parker will be there hopefully.

If the new CBA is similar enough to the current one, and the current one is what we are familiar with, some team will offer Hill an RFA deal and force the Spurs to match or not match.

And I already laid out a plausible scenario where they could be at $65 million without matching Hill, and that's without Tony getting a $20 per year deal.

[Blackjack]

George Hill will make $2,273,723 in his final year (12-13), as long as the Spurs pick up his option by Oct. 31 the prior year.

You don't give a qualifying offer to a first-round draft pick until after his fourth year, as of now, anyway.

Edit:

Here, Coon explains it better:


Teams have until the October 31** preceding the player's second season to exercise their option for the player's third season. Likewise, they have until the October 31** preceding the player's third season to exercise their option for the player's fourth season (see question number 51 for more information on options). If the team invokes both options (keeping the player for all four seasons) then the player becomes a restricted free agents following his fourth season (see question number 37 for more information on restricted free agency). If the team declines either option, then the player enters free agency as an unrestricted free agent.

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm talking about 2012-2013. The Hill RFA period you're missing.

Manu is under contract. Duncan if he sticks by his 'wheels fall off' statement will be there. Parker will be there hopefully.

If the new CBA is similar enough to the current one, and the current one is what we are familiar with, some team will offer Hill an RFA deal and force the Spurs to match or not match.

And I already laid out a plausible scenario where they could be at $65 million without matching Hill, and that's without Tony getting a $20 per year deal.

I overlooked that scenario, but in all honesty R.J's contract doesn't even hinder the Spurs matching an offer for Hill. That's if Spurs want to invest a lot of money into having both Parker and Hill for the long haul ( which doesn't make sense in my eyes). I think Spurs would be wise to keep one or the other and use the rest of the money to address a different position or skill-set.

Anyway here's your worst case scenario:

Spurs in 2012-2013 ( If Duncan is still playing and if Parker resigns; rough estimates)

Tim Duncan= 10 million (generous salary for Duncan at 36-37 years old.)

Manu Ginobili =14 million

Jefferson= 10 million

Parker =15 million (generous rough estimate)

Hill's first year in new deal = 6 million (very generous; considering his restricted)

Splitter= 4 million

Bonner= 3.6 million

Anderson=1.5 million

Blair= 1 million

Rookie 11'- 1.2 million (rough estimate)

Rookie 12'- 1.2 million (rough estimate)

Thats 10 players under contract and I'm not even including possible 2nd round picks or vet minimum signings.

And those totals for 10 players are roughly 67 million (which would be under the current luxury tax; and I'm being generous with the rough estimates). It could be even less if Duncan resigns for 6-8 million his last few years. With this *worse case scenario* Spurs would be flirting with the luxury tax if they use their mid-level exception or they could possibly employ a sign and trade if they don't want to exceed the luxury tax for that one year.

As you can see, this is the most sticky scenario that the Spurs have with RJ's new contract. But it's not unreasonable to believe the Spurs can afford Hill's first salary of his new contract and Duncan/ Parker for that 2012-2013 season even with R.J's new deal; especially with Duncan possibly retiring the following year along with Manu's contract coming off the books with him. (Also remember Hill's deal will be front-loaded more than likely.)


About the new CBA
I honestly don't think there will be a difference in the amount the players make per year with the new CBA nor do I believe there will be a significant difference in salary cap and luxury threshold compared to what it is now . I honestly believe they will just change the structure of the contracts (shorter and not fully guaranteed). But time will tell.

[objective]

George Hill will make $2,273,723 in his final year (12-13), as long as the Spurs pick up his option by Oct. 31 the prior year.

You don't give a qualifying offer to a first-round draft pick until after his fourth year, as of now, anyway.

Edit:

Here, Coon explains it better:

Coon is backing up everything I've posted.

12-13 would be Hill's 5th season, i.e. his QO RFA year. He will be on the market as an RFA July 2012. If he doesn't sign a deal with another team or agree to an extension with the Spurs, then he takes his QO and makes 2.273

Come on guys, work through it.

[Blackjack]

Coon is backing up everything I've posted.

12-13 would be Hill's 5th season, i.e. his QO RFA year. He will be on the market as an RFA July 2012. If he doesn't sign a deal with another team or agree to an extension with the Spurs, then he takes his QO and makes 2.273

Come on guys, work through it.

:lol

I actually forgot Hill was in his third year. I'm not used to having youth on the team, it just seems like they're all rooks by comparison.

[objective]

I overlooked that scenario, but in all honesty R.J's contract doesn't even hinder the Spurs matching an offer for Hill. That's if Spurs want to invest a lot of money into having both Parker and Hill for the long haul ( which doesn't make sense in my eyes). I think Spurs would be wise to keep one or the other and use the rest of the money to address a different position or skill-set.

Anyway here's your worst case scenario:

Spurs in 2012-2013 ( If Duncan is still playing and if Parker resigns; rough estimates)

Tim Duncan= 10 million (generous salary for Duncan at 36-37 years old.)


Parker =15 million (generous rough estimate)

Hill's first year in new deal = 6 million (very generous; considering his restricted)



Your generous salary for Duncan I would be hugely surprised at. I think roughly 70% of his prior year is more reaslistic, which would be about $15. Am I placing it too high? Maybe, but I remember the nicest man in Spurs history getting incensed at substantial paycut-type proposals and threatening to sign with the Knicks, and Robinson had slipped farther than Duncan has.

And Parker I would have at about 16, and that's not being generous. Just a straight line of raises basically. So our estimates aren't so different.

Hill is a legit NBA scorer, and I would be surprised if he's healthy and doesn't get numerous offers starting at the MLE and certainly some that are more. John Salmons has a contract at 8 per year and he only performs in contract years. I could go on and on about current deals for players, and MLE for Hill is anything but generous, it is probably better described as conservative.

[objective]

AND . . .

what if Parker demands 20? What if the Spurs are only offering 15?

Wouldn't then the ultimate decider in that scenario be RJ's obligations?

Will supporters of the RJ deal have any second thoughts if Tony bolts over money that is instead being paid to RJ?

And please don't argue that Parker isn't worth 20 per and therefore the Spurs shouldn't pay him after supporting a deal of 9.75 per for RJ when he definately isn't worth that.

[MaNu4Tres]

Do you honestly believe the Spurs will invest a lot in both Hill and Parker for the long haul?

I personally believe that is very Kahn-like and bad basketball economics to invest that much money into players who essentially play the same position, even if Hill is more of a SG-- he's too undersized to pay him and use him like a full time starting shooting guard.

[Blackjack]

It's ridiculously premature to project future salary, and you've gotta believe the Spurs knew what they were doing when they gave him the contract.

Their intention is to capitalize on Duncan's last year or two of elite play and keep themselves relevant (playoff-bound, hopefully) in following years -- they know full-well what happens to attendance once the team becomes irrelevant competitively.

Maybe that means means Parker's gone, maybe it doesn't. I do believe the Spurs know how to spend their money better than most and they wouldn't have handed out the contract to RJ if they didn't believe they could manage it on and off the court moving forward.

Mediocrity's comin', boys. ... Whether RJ's here or not -- they may just pay a little more for it.

[objective]

Do you honestly believe the Spurs will invest a lot in both Hill and Parker for the long haul?


not with RJ

[objective]

It's ridiculously premature to project future salary, and you've gotta believe the Spurs knew what they were doing when they gave him the contract.



Come on Blackjack, did the Spurs knew what they were doing when they junked Scola and hitched their big-man hopes on repeated deals for Bonner?

Only recently did Buford even admit that it was a mistake with Scola.

Just because the Spurs are our team and have made so many good choices and had good luck, doesn't mean they can't make mistakes.

And that's what RJ's contract is in severe danger of being, if not outright already is.

[ElNono]

$6 mill for Hill's new deal? :lol

[ohmwrecker]

If Tony really wants to be a Spur there really isn't a huge difference between $15-20 mil. There will only be a few teams that will be willing to pay him more than that and they won't be good teams.
Also, I don't see why Parker and Hill can't play together long term. I'm not saying they should, but their skill sets are pretty different for two players who play, relatively, the same position.

[ohmwrecker]

Come on Blackjack, did the Spurs knew what they were doing when they junked Scola and hitched their big-man hopes on repeated deals for Bonner?

To be fair, no one knew that Scola was going to be as good as he is (except maybe Manu). The Spurs were, retrospectively, more interested in replacing Horry than having another Oberto on the team.

[ElNono]

I think the Spurs would want to keep both... it's actually debatable that they want a 34 year old RJ at that point.

Then again, I somewhat expect the Spurs to figure out a way to dump RJ's contract before all that shit happens, but it will probably cost a fairly decent player to do so. Maybe Anderson, or some other guy.

[objective]

To be fair, no one knew that Scola was going to be as good as he is (except maybe Manu). The Spurs were, retrospectively, more interested in replacing Horry than having another Oberto on the team.

sorry, but there were plenty of people both lay and otherwise who loved the idea of Scola on the Spurs.

The Spurs were, not retrospectively, foolish, because they couldn't afford to tread water and not improve the talent level of the roster while the rest of the league was gaining ground on them.

[Blackjack]

Come on Blackjack, did the Spurs knew what they were doing when they junked Scola and hitched their big-man hopes on repeated deals for Bonner?

Only recently did Buford even admit that it was a mistake with Scola.

Just because the Spurs are our team and have made so many good choices and had good luck, doesn't mean they can't make mistakes.

And that's what RJ's contract is in severe danger of being, if not outright already is.

I didn't say they were infallible and dead-on with regards to personnel. I said they don't do anything they can't afford.

I firmly believe the Spurs saved the money in the short term and structured things as such because they believed it gave them the best chance to compete for a championship now, while maintaining a financially manageable situation down the road.

Until or unless there's some Gasol-like trade that comes available, something that just puts the Spurs right back atop the league, and the Spurs don't pull the trigger because of RJ ... I'm going to just believe it is what it is and nothing more than a champion's inevitable decent.

If the Spurs don't mind paying for a better but not-all-that-great shot, more power to 'em. But mediocrity's coming, and there ain't no getting around that.

[Blackjack]

$6 mill for Hill's new deal? :lol

Who knows if he's still here?

Tony or George could be gone by as soon as this season's deadline. Never know.

[objective]

If Tony really wants to be a Spur there really isn't a huge difference between $15-20 mil.

Not a huge difference? Over 6 years you're talking $30 million, that's what I'd call a huge difference.

Parker already did the Spurs a favor by signing the deal he did and meeting them at 66 if my memory is correct.

[ohmwrecker]

sorry, but there were plenty of people both lay and otherwise who loved the idea of Scola on the Spurs.

Sure, but nobody really expected Scola to be this good. Your hind-sighted 20/20 isn't going to change that fact. The Scola debacle has looked like a bigger mistake with each passing year. Scola gets better and Bonner, exponentially, does not. I thought it was a bad move then, but it has presently become "The worst FO mistake in franchise history".

[Blackjack]

I think I remember Pop and/or Tim imploring Holt to shell out another $4M to get the deal done with Tony, IIRC.

[MaNu4Tres]

$6 mill for Hill's new deal? :lol

A 6 million salary for Hill's first year on a front-loaded contract for 5 years exceeds 35 million dollars.

More than reasonable for Hill.

[ElNono]

Who knows if he's still here?

Tony or George could be gone by as soon as this season's deadline. Never know.

Sure. But unless he's out of the league by the time he needs to sign his next contract, Georgie is going to command more money than that (all things with the new CBA being equal)...

[objective]

Who knows if he's still here?

Tony or George could be gone by as soon as this season's deadline. Never know.

Yes they could.

And what educated observers expect either to be traded for if those observers were told that they were definatley being moved?

A small forward.

Why?

Because of how unsatisfactory RJ has been.

[ElNono]

A 6 million salary for Hill's first year on a front-loaded contract for 5 years exceeds 35-38 million dollars.

More than reasonable for Hill.

Really? If a 30 year old washed up RJ can get a $10 million deal?

[ohmwrecker]

Not a huge difference? Over 6 years you're talking $30 million, that's what I'd call a huge difference.

Parker already did the Spurs a favor by signing the deal he did and meeting them at 66 if my memory is correct.

The point is, if he wants to be here, there is room to play. The few teams that would be willing to give him a max deal are, most likely, not teams he is going to want to play for.

[ElNono]

The point is, if he wants to be here, there is room to play. The few teams that would be willing to give him a max deal are, most likely, not teams he is going to want to play for.

New York is not a team he would want to play for?

[MaNu4Tres]

Really? If a 30 year old washed up RJ can get a $10 million deal?

What do you think is a reasonable contract for Hill as of right now if he was a free agent?

I'm curious to know.

Please enlighten me.

[objective]

A 6 million salary for Hill's first year on a front-loaded contract for 5 years exceeds 35-38 million dollars.

More than reasonable for Hill.

I would argue it's conservative, not generous.

Besides, I wouldn't expect Hill or his agent to give the Spurs a discount either after the Spurs refused Hill the opportunity to make up to %120 of the scale by not even giving him the chance to meet incentives.

[ohmwrecker]

New York is not a team he would want to play for?

I think they would rather have Paul and Melo, but, failing that, they are going to have pay some other players + Parker big money to be a contender.

[jjktkk]

Pop said the same thing to Mighty Mouse, and he quickly went from being a pretty good backup point guard to the most useless player player the Spurs had in years. Relatively speaking, the Spurs have been circling the bowl ever since Pop got it in his head to tell guys to just keep chucking. Telling RJ to do it is just stupid. RJs offense isn't what's going to make a difference to this team.

The difference between Mighty Mouse and RJ was Mighty Mouse was a one trick pony, as far scoring goes, wheres RJ can shoot from the outside as well as take it to the hole. Why would the Spurs have RJ completely rebuild his shooting form over the Summer and not want him to shoot more? Should Pop just tell RJ, "don't shoot unless you absolutely have to"? Plus alot of players play harder on defense if their offense is rolling. If RJ could improve on the offensive end, how could it not make a difference for the Spurs to have a 4th or 5th scoring option? It would lower the double teams on Duncan, Giniboli, Parker, etc... if defenders have to at least be aware of RJ on offense.

[Blackjack]

Sure. But unless he's out of the league by the time he needs to sign his next contract, Georgie is going to command more money than that (all things with the new CBA being equal)...

I wasn't speaking to his next contract, just that this team's composition is in no way set in stone.

It's just ridiculously premature to project future salary for a team that's on the decline and their centerpiece is year-to-year.

God forbid there's some kind of injury or Parker's out the door regardless, all of this hand wringing will be irrelevant.

I don't have a problem with people not liking RJ, the way he fits or the deal he signed, but the only way to be so adamant against it is to say you know what the future holds.

That's why I'm taking a wait-and-see approach and remaining indifferent -- never wanted RJ on the team, but I just don't see the forgone doomsday conclusion being suggested.

[ElNono]

What do you think is a reasonable contract for Hill as of right now if he was a free agent?

I'm curious to know.

Please enlighten me.

$8-$10 millions?

It's easy to say the Spurs have one of the best (if not the best as I've heard) backcourts in the league, include Hill in that tandem, then when it comes to payday not reflect it there...

[Blackjack]

Yes they could.

And what educated observers expect either to be traded for if those observers were told that they were definatley being moved?

A small forward.

Why?

Because of how unsatisfactory RJ has been.

Hill, yes. That'd be for a small forward, seemingly.

Parker? That's pretty much doomsday. That's the proverbial white flag, unless they've got their own Jerry West somewhere.

[ElNono]

I think they would rather have Paul and Melo, but, failing that, they are going to have pay some other players + Parker big money to be a contender.

Tony has the rings already. He's not going to play forever either.
I think if he gets a good offer and stay a contender, he'll think about it, but from there to extrapolate he'll be leaving $30 million on the table for a chance to a ring, I think it's a bit unrealistic.

[ElNono]

Parker? That's pretty much doomsday. That's the proverbial white flag, unless they've got their own Jerry West somewhere.

Agreed. Tony leaving = turn off the lights on the Duncan era.

[ElNono]

I wasn't speaking to his next contract, just that this team's composition is in no way set in stone.

It's just ridiculously premature to project future salary for a team that's on the decline and their centerpiece is year-to-year.

God forbid there's some kind of injury or Parker's out the door regardless, all of this hand wringing will be irrelevant.

I don't have a problem with people not liking RJ, the way he fits or the deal he signed, but the only way to be so adamant against it is to say you know what the future holds.

That's why I'm taking a wait-and-see approach and remaining indifferent -- never wanted RJ on the team, but I just don't see the forgone doomsday conclusion being suggested.

Yeah, I agree Oct 27 can't come soon enough. :lol

Until then, bear with us...

[Blackjack]

Yeah, I agree Oct 27 can't come soon enough. :lol

Until then, bear with us...

Bearing. :hat

[objective]

What do you think is a reasonable contract for Hill as of right now if he was a free agent?

I'm curious to know.

Please enlighten me.

as a comparison

The Bulls signed RFA JJ Redick to a deal starting at $7.25 as a poison pill to the Magic. The Magic clearly don't care about money (see Rashard Lewis, Vince Carter, etc), so they matched.

Redick never averaged double digits any year in his career, is one dimensional, undersized compared to many 2s (not much bigger than Hill), and has 14 career starts in 4 years compared to Hill starting 50 in two.

I think that's the beginning of the kind of deals to be offered to Hill, not the end.

[ohmwrecker]

Tony has the rings already. He's not going to play forever either.
I think if he gets a good offer and stay a contender, he'll think about it, but from there to extrapolate he'll be leaving $30 million on the table for a chance to a ring, I think it's a bit unrealistic.

If I am understanding you correctly, the fact that Tony already has rings is irrelevant because if he does go to NYC, he will join Amare and possibly, Melo who are hungry for rings. Which is why I think they would prefer Paul, honestly.
It all boils down to Parker believing the Spurs can stay relevant for a few more years. It's pretty simple. If he doesn't think they can, he will probably leave and it really won't matter. I think he would prefer to stay a Spur, but that decision will hinge on how they perform this season. The future is happening right now.

[objective]

Agreed. Tony leaving = turn off the lights on the Duncan era.

and if Tony leaves because the Spurs can't afford both TP and RJ?

Forget the lights, the dreams of winning just got evicted.

[ohmwrecker]

Wow . . . six pages in one day. Benefactor is going to be so jealous.

[objective]

If I am understanding you correctly, the fact that Tony already has rings is irrelevant because if he does go to NYC, he will join Amare and possibly, Melo who are hungry for rings. Which is why I think they would prefer Paul, honestly.

They could prefer Paul and still end up with Parker, who would be available as a free agent unlike Paul.

They preferred Lebron and settled on getting Randolph, Felton, Azubuike and Turiaf.

[DPG21920]

Ecomoically speaking, the Spurs made a terrible move by investing this kind of money in RJ & Bonner. There is no side stepping that. You may understand the logic of the moves, but essentially the choose the lesser of two evils. That does not mean they did something good. They were able to side step the LT (which could change even this season) for one year. But it's coming next year, especially if they re-sign TP which IMO is likely.

They robbed Peter to pay Paul, and even if it makes some sense, it was still a bad move. They very easily could have kept RJ as an expiring and been no worse off basketball wise and better off financially long term. Instead they choose the 1-year reprieve.

[Indazone]

Now you guys know how I felt about Trevor Ariza last year on our team. Dude sucked and got to go. Just glad Morey made it happen. With some luck your front office can pull off the same magic. Maybe the full summer of working with the coaches will turn him into the prototypical Spurs SF but that's a stretch right now.

[ohmwrecker]

and if Tony leaves because the Spurs can't afford both TP and RJ?

I'm not convinced that is a likely scenario. Surely, the FO is fiscally intelligent enough to take all things into consideration before making that deal.

[objective]

I'm not convinced that is a likely scenario. Surely, the FO is fiscally intelligent enough to take all things into consideration before making that deal.

i hope you're right.

[MaNu4Tres]

as a comparison

The Bulls signed RFA JJ Redick to a deal starting at $7.25 as a poison pill to the Magic. The Magic clearly don't care about money (see Rashard Lewis, Vince Carter, etc), so they matched.

Redick never averaged double digits any year in his career, is one dimensional, undersized compared to many 2s (not much bigger than Hill), and has 14 career starts in 4 years compared to Hill starting 50 in two.

I think that's the beginning of the kind of deals to be offered to Hill, not the end.

There's a difference though with the contract I suggested.

Reddicks contract is back-loaded where he receives the biggest salary his first year (7.25 mil for this year, then 6.75, then 6.1 (team option) his 3rd year.

In comparison a 5 year-38 million dollar deal like I suggested is a better deal than Reddicks. Even if Hill were to receive less money his first year.

And the knock on Reddick used to be that he was one-dimensional, but to anyone who has seen him play the last two years can tell you he's become a better than average defender. He's not as one-dimensional as he used to be coming out of Duke. He's developed into something more than that over the years. IMO

[ohmwrecker]

They could prefer Paul and still end up with Parker, who would be available as a free agent unlike Paul.

They preferred Lebron and settled on getting Randolph, Felton, Azubuike and Turiaf.

Yes, but they can't be expecting to contend with this current lineup.

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm not convinced that is a likely scenario. Surely, the FO is fiscally intelligent enough to take all things into consideration before making that deal.

:tu

[Indazone]

Well you did keep Bonner and gave us Scola :)

That was fiscally intelligent

[ohmwrecker]

Well you did keep Bonner and gave us Scola :)

That was fiscally intelligent


Grrrrrrrrr!!!!

[DeadlyDynasty]

Well you did keep Bonner and gave us Scola :)

That was fiscally intelligent

:lol

[objective]

There's a difference though with the contract I suggested.

Reddicks contract is back-loaded where he receives the biggest salary his first year (7.25 mil for this year, then 6.75, then 6.1 (team option) his 3rd year.

In comparison a 5 year-38 million dollar deal like I suggested is a better deal than Reddicks. Even if Hill were to receive less money his first year.

And the knock on Reddick used to be that he was one-dimensional, but to anyone who has seen him play the last two years can tell you he's become a better than average defender. He's not as one-dimensional as he used to be coming out of Duke. He's developed into something more than that over the years. IMO

My point is that Hill > Redick. Redick's is the floor for what I expect Hill to be offered, not the ceiling.

What I'm also pointing to is that teams will offer front loaded deals to make it hard for a team to match. The Spurs themselves have done it and been unlucky enough to have it work (Elson).

And by one-dimensional, I'm not knocking Redick's defense which is servicable. He is just a shooter. Hill can shoot, drive, score in-between, get on the break and run an offense at point. He may not be a pure point or even a good one, but he has that added dimension over Redick.



Yes, but they can't be expecting to contend with this current lineup.

they're the Knicks, they can delude themselves into thinking they're contenders with the best of them. Parker may not be Paul, but he might be light years ahead of Felton who isn't looking any better than Duhon tonight.

[ohmwrecker]

:lol

What's so funny?

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9168

http://www.hoopsworld.com/story.asp?story_id=9192

[ElNono]

If I am understanding you correctly, the fact that Tony already has rings is irrelevant because if he does go to NYC, he will join Amare and possibly, Melo who are hungry for rings. Which is why I think they would prefer Paul, honestly.

It all boils down to Parker believing the Spurs can stay relevant for a few more years. It's pretty simple. If he doesn't think they can, he will probably leave and it really won't matter. I think he would prefer to stay a Spur, but that decision will hinge on how they perform this season. The future is happening right now.

I think Tony would want to believe the Spurs can stay more than 'relevant' for a few years if he's going to sign any kind of long term contract with them and leave $30 million on the table.

In a nutshell, I don't think it's all about the money, or all about the glory.
I think there's a middle ground somewhere which is obviously different for every player. That said, is chasing a ring worth $30 million for Parker? It's a risky gamble too, because the window might not last more than two seasons at best, and he would still be tied to the team for another 3 or 4 years after that.

[ElNono]

Now you guys know how I felt about Trevor Ariza last year on our team. Dude sucked and got to go. Just glad Morey made it happen. With some luck your front office can pull off the same magic. Maybe the full summer of working with the coaches will turn him into the prototypical Spurs SF but that's a stretch right now.

I wouldn't discard the offseason trumpeting as a FO move to pitch a trade for the seemingly 'new' RJ... then, we might be talking about another brilliant move :lol

[barbacoataco]

I was surprised RJ was so sucky last year. I really thought he was a better player. The worst was how he GAVE UP even trying to shoot 3's, when he has been a decent 3pt shooter and should have been able to get it together. What kind of player, at his age and experience level, gets so psyched out that they totally give up? But I am a Spur fan so I have to believe that maybe he plays better this year.

[DeadlyDynasty]

What's so funny?

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9168

http://www.hoopsworld.com/story.asp?story_id=9192

You gotta spend money to make money:greedy


I couldn't care less if there payroll was as high as the Yankees' roster, if it translates to :lobt2:'s, then i'm happier than a pig in shit:hat

[ohmwrecker]

You gotta spend money to make money:greedy


I couldn't care less if there payroll was as high as the Yankees' roster, if it translates to :lobt2:'s, then i'm happier than a pig in shit:hat

Which makes the Spurs' 4 all the more impressive.

[benefactor]

Wow . . . six pages in one day. Benefactor is going to be so jealous.
s-Xl17B-Z0A

[MaNu4Tres]

s-Xl17B-Z0A

:lol

Well played

[EricB]

Wanna come in here and apologize for starting shot. This was a thread dedicated to a certain section of people on the forum I obviously disagree with and again sorry and carry on.

[Fabbs]

I wouldn't discard the offseason trumpeting as a FO move to pitch a trade for the seemingly 'new' RJ... then, we might be talking about another brilliant move :lol
yeah when he opted out we sure saw the other 30 teams in a bidding war.
Lowering it from super extreme rip off 15 mil a year (an expiring at that) to 10 mil a year for 4 years is not going to change a thing (actually the years makes him more difficult to trade) unless he does some miraculous breakout. Nothing to indicate he will.

But but but....He's working out with Pop. :rollin

[ohmwrecker]

s-Xl17B-Z0A

:cry

[DeadlyDynasty]

Which makes the Spurs' 4 all the more impressive.

No, they're actually worth the same thing...in fact, one could argue that never defending their title diminished the Spurs' accomplishments

[ohmwrecker]

No, they're actually worth the same thing...in fact, one could argue that never defending their title diminished the Spurs' accomplishments

I don't think you understand my point, and I didn't say they were "worth" more. The Spurs won 4 in 9 years in a comparatively small market, under budget, in the same decade where their biggest competition was a very large market team with a spendthrift owner.

Why do you Lakerboys take everything as a personal affront? I'm not diminishing the Lakers' accomplishments. Not many teams have won b2bs in this league and that is a great accomplishment, but you could argue that 4/9 ain't that easy either.

[DrSteffo]

RJ is a bit inconsistent me thinks.

[benefactor]

:cry

This how these threads always go: "RJ sucks! I hate RJ! He's a bad fit! Bad contract! 4 years! He will never be what the Spurs need him to be! The Spurs will never win with RJ as the SF!"

Then comes the caveat: ". . . but, I really hope he proves me wrong . . . I hope RJ improves and can help the team. The Spurs success depends on RJ doing well. I love the Spurs."

Shit or get off the pot, you schizophrenic, bi-polar morons.
:cry:cry:cryIf you don't love RJ you don't love the Spurs:cry:cry:cry

[ohmwrecker]

:cry:cry:cryIf you don't love RJ you don't love the Spurs:cry:cry:cry

:cry:cry:cryI was born without a sarcasm detector and I have no concept of the use of hyperbole for the purpose of humor.:cry:cry:cry

[DrSteffo]

I think this forum has awesome homer fans as well as haters. Just my honest opinion (but I'm drunk)

[benefactor]

lol humor/sarcasm cop out.

[ohmwrecker]

lol no comprehension skills

[DeadlyDynasty]

I think this forum has awesome homer fans as well as haters. Just my honest opinion (but I'm drunk)

at 2:00 in the afternoon on a Thursday? :rollin

Well done, Dr...

[Obstructed_View]

The difference between Mighty Mouse and RJ was Mighty Mouse was a one trick pony, as far scoring goes, wheres RJ can shoot from the outside as well as take it to the hole. Why would the Spurs have RJ completely rebuild his shooting form over the Summer and not want him to shoot more? Should Pop just tell RJ, "don't shoot unless you absolutely have to"? Plus alot of players play harder on defense if their offense is rolling. If RJ could improve on the offensive end, how could it not make a difference for the Spurs to have a 4th or 5th scoring option? It would lower the double teams on Duncan, Giniboli, Parker, etc... if defenders have to at least be aware of RJ on offense.

No, the difference is that Stoudamire was a good shooter and facilitator before getting that ridiculous instruction. Pop started throwing that around to guys thinking they were suddenly going to scrore more points because they were relaxed, but being yelled at for not taking a shot is no less stressful than being yelled at for taking a shot, so shooting percentages don't go up.

The Spurs' offense used to be to look for the most high percentage shot and to take as much time as necessary to do it. Pop now has them taking the first shot that's open, which is usually far from the basket and partially defended. And no, none of these guys are playing harder on defense after getting the "shoot if you're open" command.

RJ has a number of ways he can help on offense. Shooting the ball from outside each and every time he's open ain't one of them.

[benefactor]

lol no comprehension skills
Whatever you say Dickloverboy.

[Obstructed_View]

Why don't you guys take your little lol back and forth to PM so the rest of us don't have to be involved?

[ohmwrecker]

Whatever you say Dickloverboy.

You wish, closet case.

[DeadlyDynasty]

I don't think you understand my point, and I didn't say they were "worth" more. The Spurs won 4 in 9 years in a comparatively small market, under budget, in the same decade where their biggest competition was a very large market team with a spendthrift owner.

Why do you Lakerboys take everything as a personal affront? I'm not diminishing the Lakers' accomplishments. Not many teams have won b2bs in this league and that is a great accomplishment, but you could argue that 4/9 ain't that easy either.

There's nothing personal about it, bro. I hype my team and you hype yours...tis the nature of rival fans. I respect SA for the 4/9, but in no way do I think it's any greater than what the Lakers have accomplished this past 10-11 years. We both can make cases for our respective sides, but neither one of us is going to convert the other :lol

[benefactor]

Why don't you guys take your little lol back and forth to PM so the rest of us don't have to be involved?
Not my fault. He's the one that can't stop thinking about me.

[ohmwrecker]

Not my fault. He's the one that can't stop thinking about me.

Alright, this is getting a little weird now. I am willing to call a truce . . . agree to disagree? Or, we can keep this up . . . your call, Bennie.

[ohmwrecker]

There's nothing personal about it, bro. I hype my team and you hype yours...tis the nature of rival fans. I respect SA for the 4/9, but in no way do I think it's any greater than what the Lakers have accomplished this past 10-11 years. We both can make cases for our respective sides, but neither one of us is going to convert the other :lol

That's cool. I just get a kick out of imagining Captain Beefheart and Tom Waits discussing basketball.

[benefactor]

Actually you called me...but a truce is fine.

Let us proceed.

[DeadlyDynasty]

That's cool. I just get a kick out of imagining Captain Beefheart and Tom Waits discussing basketball.

The piano's been drinking for sure...:hat

[mingus]

RJ has a number of ways he can help on offense. Shooting the ball from outside each and every time he's open ain't one of them.

true. the thing RJ has to do is become a threat from distance because that opens up his driving game and spaces the floor for others. he doesn't have to take it every time he's open. if he shows he can hit the three with consistency, it'll allow him to do what he is best at, which is drive the ball and go the line and get opposing bigs in foul trouble. problem is that he virtually has no space to be effective at that because people aren't, justifiably, respecting his three.

it'll be amazing how much a difference in RJ we'll see if he can prove to be a threat from three. not on;y will it make him a three point threat, it'll allow him to drive. he's severely inhibited out there by his inability to be a threat from outside.

[ohmwrecker]

Actually you called me...but a truce is fine.

Let us proceed.

Semantics . . . last word . . . truce it is!

[MaNu4Tres]

Here's something we all can agree on.

If Jefferson can play like (see below) more consistently whenever he receives the few touches he actually gets, he will improve the Spurs chances at the title immensely.

This is the aggression the Spurs need out of Jefferson more consistently. And this aggression that Jefferson showed at times last season is why some of us believe he has the chance to improve from a consistency standpoint. He has this ability. Now what is preventing him from being this player on a more consistent basis? Touches? Confidence? Hopefully it's neither going into this new season.

zMPBooQ1vXg

u1Tk5MKJbXg

[ohmwrecker]

zMPBooQ1vXg

u1Tk5MKJbXg


Man, they were so good in that series. What the fuck happened?

[jag]

There's a group of posters who incessantly bitched about Mahinmi. There's a group who incessantly bitched about d-league players not getting enough minutes. There's a group of posters who always find something about Pop to bitch about. There's a group who is obsessed with Bonner and brings him up in every thread. And there's a group whose new hobby is to shit on RJ every chance they get.

It's not surprising that all those groups are actually the same group. The usual group of posters will find something to bitch about. They'll follow each other around and jerk each other off to "we hate RJ," "we hate bonner," and "we aren't happy with Pop's rotations" threads. Surprise, surprise.

When all you do is bitch it makes it difficult to finding meaning in your bitching, even when you do have a legitimate gripe.

And thanks for the insight, australian Spurs fan.

[DrSteffo]

at 2:00 in the afternoon on a Thursday? :rollin

Well done, Dr...

Lakers fan never heard of time zones :lmao

[ElNono]

Man, they were so good in that series. What the fuck happened?

Actually, that was the regular season. 11/11/09 as the videos indicate.
RJ did have a really good game in the Dallas series (I think it was the pivotal game 3 IIRC).

As Manu4Tres said, his offense has been inconsistent. It would be easier to cope up with that if his defense would have been better, but at least last season, they seemed to go hand-in-hand (his defensive intensity seemed to vary depending on his touches on offense). I'm just hoping this season they won't be as dependent on each other.

[ElNono]

There's a group of posters who incessantly bitched about Mahinmi. There's a group who incessantly bitched about d-league players not getting enough minutes. There's a group of posters who always find something about Pop to bitch about. There's a group who is obsessed with Bonner and brings him up in every thread. And there's a group whose new hobby is to shit on RJ every chance they get.

It's not surprising that all those groups are actually the same group. The usual group of posters will find something to bitch about. They'll follow each other around and jerk each other off to "we hate RJ," "we hate bonner," and "we aren't happy with Pop's rotations" threads. Surprise, surprise.

When all you do is bitch it makes it difficult to finding meaning in your bitching, even when you do have a legitimate gripe.

And thanks for the insight, australian Spurs fan.

Don't forget the posters that bitch about other posters bitching... :lol

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

This thread is just :lol

To defend myself and friends I associate with that were for R.J being resigned:

-Did we think RJ's play was worthy of the 40 million dollar deal? No we didn't.

-Was RJ the most realistic option for the Spurs this off-season? Yes he was. That is the realistic reality that took place. Not only was he was the best option, but his new deal saved Holt roughly 25 million.

-Do we think he has the chance to improve in his second season? Sure we do. His three point shooting was non-existent from February to the end of the year last year. Any amount of 3 point shooting will be an improvement.

-Does RJ's contract effect the Spurs from adding a significant (more than the MLE) free agent in the near future? No it doesn't. Not with Tim and Manu still on this team for two more seasons. Spurs would have just around the MLE to add anyone significant in the off-season via free agency if either scenario played out.

-Does his deal effect the Spurs from resigning Blair and Hill when their contracts are up? No it doesn't. Their deals are up when Manu's contract is off the books. Spurs will have plenty of money that off-season (30+million in cap room) and will have the nice 11 million dollar expiring contact to use in a trade from that off-season til February. How is that a bad rebuilding situation?


These are the reasons why I was for the R.J signing. I thought from the very get go, he would be the most realistic and best option since the majority of the MLE was going to go to Splitter anyway. Realizing this reality and the fact that R.J's contract doesn't necessarily effect the Spurs rebuilding process and doesn't effect the Hill or Blair being extended whenever that day comes in 3 years is why I was for it. His contract also doesn't necessarily effect Parker being resigned if Parker's new deal is front-loaded (which 95% of contracts are), since Tim's contract is off the books 2 years from now.

If Parker is resigned then yeah R.J's contract might effect Hill and Blair to be both extended. But you have to remember Manu's and Tim's contracts will be off the books by then and if Parker is resigned then I don't think Hill will be a Spur that much longer anyway.


My whole debate wasn't if R.J would improve or not in his second season. It was solely based off the reality of the situation now and the near future.

Fair reasoning. Please understand that I don't have a problem with people who support RJ, whatever their reasons, nor am I trying to convert anyone to a 'hater' - for me, this is just about venting.

To be clear, my major problem with the scenario is this: we're locked into at least another 3 years of mediocre, ill-fitting RJ clogging up the cap, which means he has to play, which stops us from improving at the SF position by retarding potential development of someone we can bring in through the draft, trade or free agency. I just don't think that RJ at 10mil is a salary anyone will touch for 2 years at the very least. We need to be better defending the perimeter to be a true contender, and I don't see him taking us there.

It was definitely the "safe play" to re-sign RJ, although why they massively overpaid (I doubt anyone else was offering more than the MLE, and there was very little interest out there) I'm not sure. But it locks us into mediocrity.

Now is not the time for ultra-safe big picture plays for the Spurs, it's time to take calculated risks e.g. encouraging RJ to take up his option and thus having a 15mil expiring to trade to a team desperate to drop salary, like the Knicks (how about Wilson Chandler and Curry's 11mil expiring for RJ's 15mil expiring, gifting the Knicks extra cap room they're seeking? Chandler would be a much better fit for the Spurs - in particular, a much better defender who could grow playing for Pop). Was this a real possibility (ie. was RJ's agent pushing for this deal - I guess so - but if someone from the team was whispering in his ear from the other direction who knows what he would have chosen to do?)? We'll never know.

In the end, I just think resigninf RJ on the terms we did was a really bad move for the end of Tim and Manu's run.


Translation: "Can we get back to the hating now?"

Yes, you may. Let it be duly noted I have never sparred with you.

I apologise if I am mistaken, and you say I am so I accept it. Sorry.


/thread. In case the RJ lovers haven't noticed, the rest of the WC celebrated when he signed his new deal.:toast

:lmao Yes, and the media laughed and made subtle jibes at how good the Spurs FO "usually" are.


I'm having a hard time agreeing with your math.

Hill is an RFA in the summer of 2012. He could take the QO and stay on for one more year. But Hill is as sure a candidate as there ever was for a team making him an offer betting that his team won't be able to afford him.

Even re-signing TD at a reduced rate (75% of current), and convincing Parker to just keep his salary in line with today's at standard increasing increments, the Spurs could very well be over $65 million in commitments without Hill's paltry QO, not including future firsts or future MLEs or LLEs and with only 8 playuers.

Indeed.


:lol

So if we don't just love and accept Dick we hate the Spurs? Your are hitting that next level in your relationship with RJ.

Spot on.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Wow . . . six pages in one day. Benefactor is going to be so jealous.

My shit-stirring paid off then. ;) :lol


Ecomoically speaking, the Spurs made a terrible move by investing this kind of money in RJ & Bonner. There is no side stepping that. You may understand the logic of the moves, but essentially the choose the lesser of two evils. That does not mean they did something good. They were able to side step the LT (which could change even this season) for one year. But it's coming next year, especially if they re-sign TP which IMO is likely.

They robbed Peter to pay Paul, and even if it makes some sense, it was still a bad move. They very easily could have kept RJ as an expiring and been no worse off basketball wise and better off financially long term. Instead they choose the 1-year reprieve.

Well said, sir. :)

[spurs10]

That's cool. I just get a kick out of imagining Captain Beefheart and Tom Waits discussing basketball.
With avatar's of Cpt.Beefheart and Waits...must not be horrible people, y'know? :toast:flag:

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Well you did keep Bonner and gave us Scola :)

That was fiscally intelligent

We all hate you eternally, but well played. :toast


I was surprised RJ was so sucky last year. I really thought he was a better player. The worst was how he GAVE UP even trying to shoot 3's, when he has been a decent 3pt shooter and should have been able to get it together. What kind of player, at his age and experience level, gets so psyched out that they totally give up? But I am a Spur fan so I have to believe that maybe he plays better this year.

I hope eternally, but believing in RJ is difficult.


Wanna come in here and apologize for starting shot. This was a thread dedicated to a certain section of people on the forum I obviously disagree with and again sorry and carry on.

That's very decent of you, sir. :)


lol humor/sarcasm cop out.


lol no comprehension skills

Begone! Back to the NBA Forum with you evil spirits! :lmao


No, the difference is that Stoudamire was a good shooter and facilitator before getting that ridiculous instruction. Pop started throwing that around to guys thinking they were suddenly going to scrore more points because they were relaxed, but being yelled at for not taking a shot is no less stressful than being yelled at for taking a shot, so shooting percentages don't go up.

The Spurs' offense used to be to look for the most high percentage shot and to take as much time as necessary to do it. Pop now has them taking the first shot that's open, which is usually far from the basket and partially defended. And no, none of these guys are playing harder on defense after getting the "shoot if you're open" command.

RJ has a number of ways he can help on offense. Shooting the ball from outside each and every time he's open ain't one of them.

That kinda stuff is why this man is wearing is an all-star medal. :)


There's a group of posters who incessantly bitched about Mahinmi. There's a group who incessantly bitched about d-league players not getting enough minutes. There's a group of posters who always find something about Pop to bitch about. There's a group who is obsessed with Bonner and brings him up in every thread. And there's a group whose new hobby is to shit on RJ every chance they get.

It's not surprising that all those groups are actually the same group. The usual group of posters will find something to bitch about. They'll follow each other around and jerk each other off to "we hate RJ," "we hate bonner," and "we aren't happy with Pop's rotations" threads. Surprise, surprise.

When all you do is bitch it makes it difficult to finding meaning in your bitching, even when you do have a legitimate gripe.

And thanks for the insight, australian Spurs fan.

Yeah, except I am usually the one calling for calm and not bitching about the bloody team. So your post only works in Bizarro World. And besides, as I have stated a number of times, this is a venting thread, nothing more. Have fun with it or go find something better to do. Easy choice.







I'm back, boys and girls! :D :smokin

Well, kinda sorta back anyway... ;)

[objective]

Now is not the time for ultra-safe big picture plays for the Spurs, it's time to take calculated risks e.g. encouraging RJ to take up his option and thus having a 15mil expiring to trade to a team desperate to drop salary, like the Knicks (how about Wilson Chandler and Curry's 11mil expiring for RJ's 15mil expiring, gifting the Knicks extra cap room they're seeking? Chandler would be a much better fit for the Spurs - in particular, a much better defender who could grow playing for Pop). Was this a real possibility (ie. was RJ's agent pushing for this deal - I guess so - but if someone from the team was whispering in his ear from the other direction who knows what he would have chosen to do?)? We'll never know.


While I see what you're saying about RJ's deal and agree, I don't think your particular trade would be realistic. If the Knicks wanted out from Chandler they could just renounce him or not give him a qualifying offer this summer.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

While I see what you're saying about RJ's deal and agree, I don't think your particular trade would be realistic. If the Knicks wanted out from Chandler they could just renounce him or not give him a qualifying offer this summer.

Fair call, it was just an example of what a 15mil expiring might do at the lower end. No idea what other deals may have materialised. Now we'll never know.

[benefactor]

Actually, that was the regular season. 11/11/09 as the videos indicate.
RJ did have a really good game in the Dallas series (I think it was the pivotal game 3 IIRC).

It was Game 2 and it was more like one really good half. He had 19pts, but all but 2 of that was in the first half. He had a pretty good game in Game 4 too.

That's pretty much RJ in a nutshell though. TBQH, I'd be happy if he could just be that inconsistent consistently.

[ohmwrecker]

Actually, that was the regular season. 11/11/09 as the videos indicate.
RJ did have a really good game in the Dallas series (I think it was the pivotal game 3 IIRC).

Yeah, I don't really know why I quoted those videos . . . I was making a general statement about the whole team (not just RJ). There's another thread where I was harping on the duality of the Spurs in last season's playoffs. I got confused for a minute.

[jag]

Don't forget the posters that bitch about other posters bitching... :lol

we all have roles...

[ElNono]

we all have roles...

:toast

[phxspurfan]

C_XxRmnZ5YY

[Fabbs]

Is this Ohmwrecker, ElNono and _Jag?


C_XxRmnZ5YY

[ElNono]

Those are the next pop sensation: The Popazit Girrrrls...

[BackHome]

You need to change the title to "RC-hater roll call" because it is not RJ fault that he sucks playing in a halfcourt offense. It is the person who came up with the plan to bring a guy who's game is based on fast past transition ball where people can pass and he can dunk. Other then that his skills are very basic.........So put me down for RC sucks for getting RJ and RC sucks for letting Scola go...

To be honest RC doesn't suck but those two descions get you the bone head of the year award!

[z0sa]

Ruff must be pissed to start the season.

[Cessation]

Eat flacid Dick, haters, cause its all you deserve!! :downspin:

[Leonard Curse]

im glad someone revived this thread right here!! i am guilty of pop bashing but i will never be ashamed of that. b/c he can be one stubborn s.o.b.

however it was only a matter of time b4 RJ came out to play like RJ. all 10yrs hes been explosive and deadly thats not going to end w/ one mediocre season

[EricB]

Ruff must be pissed to start the season.


"Shitting tears" I believe was his words.

[mingus]

I totally nailed it with everything I've said about RJ.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Ruff must be pissed to start the season.

Why? I'm overjoyed! If you read the thread I repeatedly stated that I hoped he'd prove me wrong, which is what he's doing, offensively anyway. He's still no lockdown defender, but he was never going to be so I won't hold that against him. RJ is playing excellent basketball at this point and I'm really happy to see it, happy that (at least at this very early point in the season) he's proving me wrong. Let's hope it continues.

PS I still think he was massively overpaid, I still think we'll come to regret his contract, and he's never going to be the lockdown perimeter defender we so badly lack. We'll have to find that elsewhere. But I am glad he looks a lot better out there than he ever did last year.

PPS Probably wise to save your crowing until later in the season. The first month means very little because most teams are still finding their feet.

[MaNu4Tres]

PPS Probably wise to save your crowing until later in the season. The first month means very little because most teams are still finding their feet.

Says the guy who ragged on him and started this thread after a couple of preseason games.

[AusSpursFan]

I think you have been had with this one. RJ deserves credit for his offseason work. For someone to recognise their faults, and then do something about it, earns my respect.

[ezau]

Why? I'm overjoyed! If you read the thread I repeatedly stated that I hoped he'd prove me wrong, which is what he's doing, offensively anyway. He's still no lockdown defender, but he was never going to be so I won't hold that against him. RJ is playing excellent basketball at this point and I'm really happy to see it, happy that (at least at this very early point in the season) he's proving me wrong. Let's hope it continues.

PS I still think he was massively overpaid, I still think we'll come to regret his contract, and he's never going to be the lockdown perimeter defender we so badly lack. We'll have to find that elsewhere. But I am glad he looks a lot better out there than he ever did last year.

PPS Probably wise to save your crowing until later in the season. The first month means very little because most teams are still finding their feet.

For the past four games, RJ has been the leading scorer of the Spurs. Now let that stew for a while before you reply

[ElNono]

His scoring is overshadowing the decent job he's doing on defense. He is not a stopper, and he never will be that, but he's been playing against fairly tough competition (Granger, Ariza, Hill) and he's not the glaring hole he was last season. That was my main concern with him, and he's been doing a good job so far. Hope he keeps it up.

[MaNu4Tres]

He was never a "glaring hole" defensively to begin with. He just wasn't a stopper, which most people were expecting (IE "the next Bowen").

[ElNono]

He was never a "glaring hole" defensively to begin with. He just wasn't a stopper, which most people were expecting (IE "the next Bowen").

This is where we disagree, obviously.
There's no 'next Bowen'. I certainly wasn't expecting that from him.

[ezau]

Bowen is irreplaceable. RJ averaging 20 points in four games and doing it at a superb 65.9 FG percentage is very surprising. I believe he'll hit a slump, but not that much. If he produces in the 17-18 ppg range, teams have to worry about 4 legitimate scorers at the same time for the Spurs.

[yavozerb]

Why? I'm overjoyed! If you read the thread I repeatedly stated that I hoped he'd prove me wrong, which is what he's doing, offensively anyway. He's still no lockdown defender, but he was never going to be so I won't hold that against him. RJ is playing excellent basketball at this point and I'm really happy to see it, happy that (at least at this very early point in the season) he's proving me wrong. Let's hope it continues.

PS I still think he was massively overpaid, I still think we'll come to regret his contract, and he's never going to be the lockdown perimeter defender we so badly lack. We'll have to find that elsewhere. But I am glad he looks a lot better out there than he ever did last year.

PPS Probably wise to save your crowing until later in the season. The first month means very little because most teams are still finding their feet.


Says the guy who ragged on him and started this thread after a couple of preseason games.

Nice Manu...:lol

[yavozerb]

Why? I'm overjoyed! If you read the thread I repeatedly stated that I hoped he'd prove me wrong, which is what he's doing, offensively anyway. He's still no lockdown defender, but he was never going to be so I won't hold that against him. RJ is playing excellent basketball at this point and I'm really happy to see it, happy that (at least at this very early point in the season) he's proving me wrong. Let's hope it continues.

PS I still think he was massively overpaid, I still think we'll come to regret his contract, and he's never going to be the lockdown perimeter defender we so badly lack. We'll have to find that elsewhere. But I am glad he looks a lot better out there than he ever did last year.

PPS Probably wise to save your crowing until later in the season. The first month means very little because most teams are still finding their feet.

You need to stop already..Before this season you questioned RJ's overall game (he seems to have fixed many problems), now you are going to use the overpaid angle on the guy (Guy took a paycut and you still bitch about his contract), and then there is the defensive stopper (sorry to dissappoint but we had no stopper before bowen and we probably will not have for another for a long time). Just say you were wrong and quite trying to find different things wrong with the guy. If you dont like him, fine, just say that...:flag:

[Obstructed_View]

He's been the best Spur thus far this season. If he can keep it up the Spurs are going to be good. Given his current field goal percentage, if he can keep this up he's probably going to be an MVP candidate.

[baseline bum]

Dick's on fire so far. I just hope he doesn't pull a Steve Smith 2002.

[Man In Black]

Dick's on fire so far. I just hope he doesn't pull a Steve Smith 2002.

HITA status would be a severe drop, no doubt. I like that he is finding himself in the system. I agree with RnR in the sense that it was very apparent, he didn't fit at all. That whole square peg in a circle thing was the best way to describe RJ. He teased us all in Game 1 LAST year but then became a shell of himself becoming an enigma. I'd liken what people say about RJ was similar to what LAL bandwagon and fan alike were saying when Lamar Odom showed back up at Staples. Enigma then, fairly consistent now. I hope for RJ's continued success. We all do...even RnR.

[z0sa]

Why? I'm overjoyed! If you read the thread I repeatedly stated that I hoped he'd prove me wrong, which is what he's doing, offensively anyway. He's still no lockdown defender, but he was never going to be so I won't hold that against him. RJ is playing excellent basketball at this point and I'm really happy to see it, happy that (at least at this very early point in the season) he's proving me wrong. Let's hope it continues.

PS I still think he was massively overpaid, I still think we'll come to regret his contract, and he's never going to be the lockdown perimeter defender we so badly lack. We'll have to find that elsewhere. But I am glad he looks a lot better out there than he ever did last year.

PPS Probably wise to save your crowing until later in the season. The first month means very little because most teams are still finding their feet.

I think Manu4Tres responded to this best. I also think this bump was well deserved. You have illustrated you are ready to write off RJ's play at any cost for the "minor compensation" of being right about something. Whether it's his overall play, or his lack of skills in being a "stopper," or his contract, or whatever. He still might prove his signing was the best move we could make, all options considered. He's done well on D to start. He's certainly started his contract on a very strong note. Why are you so ready to be a "hater"?

For the record, I couldn't care less about someone hating on RJ at this point since he's decided he's gonna play like the RJ we know instead of a hallowed out 6'7 corpse. I'm positive he'll hit a tough stretch, too, but if he can play like these 4 games somewhat consistently ...

... then I think we can bury this thread for good.

Let's hope, right? :toast

[Fpoonsie]

Dick's on fire so far. I just hope he doesn't pull a Steve Smith 2002.

Can't wait for Sean to go off mid-game w/ "Might was well call him 'Chlamydia', 'cause Dick's on FIE-uhhhh!"

[Slippy]

I think you have been had with this one. RJ deserves credit for his offseason work. For someone to recognise their faults, and then do something about it, earns my respect.

Thats all you can ask for. Glad to see there are aussies on here that think differently to our bitter mate, in Ruff.

To start a thread like this going by pre-season form was just laughable.

[silverblk mystix]

...excuse me, I am a little lost here...

I actually like RJ and have been hoping he improved...

but...

can anyone here direct me to the

Matt Bonner haters roll call?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Just have to point out that, much to my and every other Spurs fans chagrin, I was fucking right about RJ. Useless bastard, and now we're saddled with 3 more years of him at 10mil per, a contract that NEVER MADE ANY SENSE AT ALL.

:pctoss

[ElNono]

Fitting end of the season for RJ... glued to the bench because he sucks... to think he had me fooled back in December...

[DesignatedT]

I'll finally join this.

No doubt in my mind he has played his last game here in a Spurs uniform so the contract extension doesn't really matter... It's not like it prevented us from getting anybody else.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Sadly, he had us all fooled, El Nono, then stole our wallet like a cheap hooker.

It was always the contract that concerned me most - we were always going to need a big overhaul sometime around 2012 when Tim's contract is up, yet they re-signed him for 4 years at way over market value. If he'd signed for around the MLE it would have been a decent deal, but RJ@10mil/yr is untradeable without giving up another good asset like Hill or Blair.

"You do it to yourself, you do, and that's what really hurts..."

[celldweller]

......I'm In..... I should of been in months ago. The dude is wasted space.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I'll finally join this.

No doubt in my mind he has played his last game here in a Spurs uniform so the contract extension doesn't really matter... It's not like it prevented us from getting anybody else.

Who is going to take him for 30mil over the next 3 years at a time when the NBA is monetarily contracting? NO-ONE. It's not about whether it prevented us from getting someone else last summer, it's about how it hamstrings our cap for the next two years (at least) as I explained when I first made this thread. Look at the BIG PICTURE.

[200 miles]

It took me this long to finally see RJ the same way I see Bonner: complete and utter garbage.

[DPG21920]

He didn't have us all fooled.

[baseline bum]

It's not so much that I hate Jefferson. It's just that herpes would probably contribute more to the team.


Dick's on fire so far. I just hope he doesn't pull a Steve Smith 2002.

:depressed

[DesignatedT]

Who is going to take him for 30mil over the next 3 years at a time when the NBA is monetarily contracting? NO-ONE. It's not about whether it prevented us from getting someone else last summer, it's about how it hamstrings our cap for the next two years (at least) as I explained when I first made this thread. Look at the BIG PICTURE.

The Spurs will find a way to move him if they truly want him gone.

[baseline bum]

The Spurs will find a way to move him if they truly want him gone.

Yeah, you don't want to see that. Look at what it cost the Spurs to salary dump one year of Butler's contract for 1/3rd of what Jefferson makes per year.

[TJastal]

I'll finally join this.

No doubt in my mind he has played his last game here in a Spurs uniform so the contract extension doesn't really matter... It's not like it prevented us from getting anybody else.

He'll be back.