Meltdown.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/16/1300248917106/Japan-reactor-006.jpg

This photo released by Tokyo Electric Power Co shows damaged No 3 (right) and No 4 reactors of the Fukushima Daiichi power plant

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Fuck, looks like things are getting out of control.

From The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/)


4.13am: More bad news: Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said the radiation level at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant reached 10 millisievert per hour at one point on Wednesday morning, possibly due to the damage at its No 2 reactor the day before, the government's nuclear safety agency said.

The maximum level was measured at the plant's front gate at 10:40am. It fell to 6.4 millisievert at 10:45am and to 2.3 millisievert at 10:54am but rose again to about 3.4 millisievert at 11am according to Kyodo

4.36am: To make sense of all this, it appears that reactor no 4 was badly damaged by the hydrogen explosions in nearby reactors, and it is possible that the unit's water level has disappeared entirely.

Tepco said that water in a pool storing the spent fuel rods may be boiling and that its level may have dropped, exposing the rods. The government ordered the firm to inject water into the pool ''as soon as possible to avert a major nuclear disaster.''

Due to high radiation levels at the reactor, workers have been unable to pour water into the troubled pool.

4.50am: Japan's health ministry announced the rise in the legal radiation exposure limit because workers could no longer get close enough to the Fukushima Daiichi No 4 reactor for urgent attempts to repair the reactor's cooling system.

The ministry raised the level two and a half times, to 250 millseiverts.

Earlier, Kyodo news agency said 730 out of a total of 800 workers had been evacuated from the site.

"The workers cannot carry out even minimal work at the plant now," chief cabinet secretary Yukio Edano told a press conference. "Because of the radiation risk we are on standby."

5.21am (2.21pm JST): Seoul's Yonhap news agency is reporting that South Korea will send part of its reserve of boric acid - used to slow down fission reactions - to its neighbour. Japan has used up most of its own stockpile to try to cool down the reactor cores.

5.46am (2.46pm JST): More from Fukushima: Reuters is reporting that authorities plan to bulldoze an emergency route to crippled reactor No.4 to allow access for fire trucks, although it appears this morning's blaze is now out. The unit was not operating when the earthquake hit but was storing spent fuel rods.

Kyodo says that workers the facility have been unable to pour water into the pool containing the spent fuel rods because of high radiation levels. Tepco, the plant's operators, are considering spraying the reactor with boric acid from overhead, warning: ''The possibility of recriticality is not zero".

Kyodo has just flashed up a statement that winds are preventing Self Defence Force helicopters from dousing it with water, citing an unnamed minister.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/78524.html


Status of quake-stricken reactors at Fukushima nuclear power plants

TOKYO, March 16, Kyodo

The following is the known status as of Wednesday afternoon of each of the six reactors at the Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant and the four reactors at the Fukushima No. 2 plant, both in Fukushima Prefecture, which were crippled by Friday's magnitude 9.0 earthquake and the ensuing tsunami.

Fukushima No. 1 plant

-- Reactor No. 1 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core, vapor vented, building damaged Saturday by hydrogen explosion, seawater being pumped in.

-- Reactor No. 2 - Cooling failure, seawater being pumped in, fuel rods fully exposed temporarily, vapor vented, building damaged Monday by blast at Reactor No. 3, damage to containment vessel on Tuesday, potential meltdown feared.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Cooling failure, partial melting of core feared, vapor vented, seawater being pumped in, building damaged Monday by hydrogen explosion, high-level radiation measured nearby on Tuesday, plume of smoke observed Wednesday, damage to containment vessel likely.

-- Reactor No. 4 - Under maintenance when quake struck, fire Tuesday possibly caused by hydrogen explosion at pool holding spent fuel rods, pool water level not observed, fire observed Wednesday at building housing reactor, no water poured in to cool pool.

-- Reactor No. 5, No. 6 - Under maintenance when quake struck, temperature slightly rising in spent fuel pool.

Fukushima No. 2 plant

-- Reactor No. 1, No. 2, No. 4 - Cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Cold shutdown.

[Chomag]

I think I have pretty much given up on trying to figure out what the hell is going on there. The Japanese officials seem to change their stories like every other minute. I can't believe anything they say.

[boutons_deux]

"The possibility of recriticality is not zero"

The useful information content of this authoritative statement in not non-trivial. :lol

[Agloco]

The maximum level was measured at the plant's front gate at 10:40am. It fell to 6.4 millisievert at 10:45am and to 2.3 millisievert at 10:54am but rose again to about 3.4 millisievert at 11am according to Kyodo


Not all that bad really. Consider that a radiation workers total body annual exposure limit is 50 mSv (NRC and IIRC agree on this figure by and large). Also note that the numbers given are per hour.


4.50am: Japan's health ministry announced the rise in the legal radiation exposure limit because workers could no longer get close enough to the Fukushima Daiichi No 4 reactor for urgent attempts to repair the reactor's cooling system.

The ministry raised the level two and a half times, to 250 millseiverts.

I'm not quite certain whats meant by this.....

Did they raise the legal limit to 250 mSv so that the could "legally" send them back in?

Did they record levels of 250 mSv/hr and pull the workers back because of it?

Damn these translations. A lot can get lost in them.

[SnakeBoy]

we are about to find out if a GE mark I containment vessel works as advertised.


That seems to be the only question at this point. If they do then a meltdown really won't be as bad as it is being hyped.

[InRareForm]

Reuters Reuters Top News
FLASH: IAEA head says core damage at units 1-3 of Japan's quake-hit nuclear plant confirmed, situation very serious

[Wild Cobra]

Reuters Reuters Top News
FLASH: IAEA head says core damage at units 1-3 of Japan's quake-hit nuclear plant confirmed, situation very serious
Yet the radiation is only at high levels immediately around the facility. It will probably stay so.

[Agloco]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/nuclear-experts-weigh-in-on-ge-containment-system/2011/03/14/ABspN1V_story.html

An interesting quote from this article:


Some experts said that if the situation deteriorates at the nuclear plant, GE’s design — known as the Boiling Water Reactor Mark 1 — may not withstand the massive amount of hydrogen gas that could be released.

“We’re not at that point yet,” said Paul Gunter, director of the Reactor Oversight Project at Beyond Nuclear. “But these vessels are brittle. They were going to retire Fukushima Daiichi in just a few more months, and so this particular Mark 1 with its substandard design was reaching its endlife, and so it raises a lot of concerns.

Hmmmm.......

[Winehole23]

Fraudster scumbags have beaten all records in setting up fake Japan relief pages, fielding more than 1.7 million malware pages, 419 scams trading on the Japanese disasters, 50+ fake domains with "Japan tsunami" or "Japan earthquake" in their URLs. MacWorld recommends donating via the Red Cross (http://www.redcross.org.uk/Donate-Now/Make-a-single-donation/Japan-Tsunami-Appeal), or other established charities that you're familiar with. http://www.boingboing.net/2011/03/15/fraudsters-break-all.html

[Wild Cobra]

Fraudster scumbags have beaten all records in setting up fake Japan relief pages, fielding more than 1.7 million malware pages, 419 scams trading on the Japanese disasters, 50+ fake domains with "Japan tsunami" or "Japan earthquake" in their URLs. MacWorld recommends donating via the Red Cross, or other established charities that you're familiar with. http://www.boingboing.net/2011/03/15/fraudsters-break-all.html
That's good advice, and always has been, with any disaster.

[RandomGuy]

Yet the radiation is only at high levels immediately around the facility. It will probably stay so.


If any of the spent fuel rods in the pools do indeed catch fire, nuclear experts say, the high heat would loft the radiation in clouds that would spread the radioactivity. "It's worse than a meltdown," said David A Lochbaum, a nuclear engineer at the Union of Concerned Scientists. "The reactor is inside thick walls, and the spent fuel of Reactors 1 and 3 is out in the open."

Let's hope you are probably right.

[Cry Havoc]

European Union's energy chief says nuke plant is 'effectively out of control'.

United States recommends wider evacuation area surrounding Fukushima Plant I.

[Cry Havoc]

Yet the radiation is only at high levels immediately around the facility. It will probably stay so.

"US recommends wider evacuation area surrounding Fukushima Plant I"

These statements do not corroborate.

[hater]

One last hail mary?

"Japanese police to use crowd-control water cannon to cool nuclear rods."

kamikaze police men

[baseline bum]

TOKYO – The operator of Japan's tsunami-crippled nuclear plant says it has almost completed a new power line that could restore electricity to the complex and solve the crisis that has threatened a meltdown.

continued... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110316/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake)

[Viva Las Espuelas]

United States recommends wider evacuation area surrounding Fukushima Plant I.

Posting one more time for effectiveness.

[Agloco]

TOKYO – The operator of Japan's tsunami-crippled nuclear plant says it has almost completed a new power line that could restore electricity to the complex and solve the crisis that has threatened a meltdown.

continued... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110316/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake)

:tu

[Chomag]

US Nuclear Agency Chief: No more water in spent fuel pool.

[hater]

going down to the wire....

10... 9.... 8....

[RandomGuy]

TOKYO – The operator of Japan's tsunami-crippled nuclear plant says it has almost completed a new power line that could restore electricity to the complex and solve the crisis that has threatened a meltdown.

continued... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110316/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake)

That may be the most ironic thing I have ever read.

"They had to run a power line TO the power plant."

(lapses into his best Larry the Cable Guy imitation)

"Shoot, they coulda just had my cousin Skeeter out there with some duct tape and an extension cord"

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Yeah. I'm not buying that nor am I put at ease over that statement. Especially after that earlier post saying there's no water in the spent rod reactor, if that's true. Someones gonna have to start wearing some big boy pants and tell everyone what exactly is going down. Dare I say, Mr President?

[MannyIsGod]

I hope you mean the Japanese Prime Minister.

[Cry Havoc]

I hope you mean the Japanese Prime Minister.

:lol

[Agloco]

NRC Chairman - "We don't believe that theres any water in the spent fuel pond in reactor 4"

Would seem to confirm my suspicions about why the US recommended an evac radius of 50 miles.

If this is true, the situation just got a lot worse.


A link for those interested:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-03-16/japan-reactor-loses-cooling-water-for-spent-fuel-jaczko-says.html

[MannyIsGod]

How likely are those rods to catch on fire?

[Agloco]

How likely are those rods to catch on fire?

It's only a matter of time without any water......

[MannyIsGod]

In their current conditions are they difficult to work with? I guess my question ultimately is how safely can people approach rods in that condition? Obviously they should at least try to airlift water in if nothing else, right?

I hope they can prevent a fire from those rods. That would be a fairly huge disaster.

[baseline bum]

It's only a matter of time without any water......

Any idea as to how much time they have to get those pumps going again before this is likely to happen?

[baseline bum]

In their current conditions are they difficult to work with? I guess my question ultimately is how safely can people approach rods in that condition? Obviously they should at least try to airlift water in if nothing else, right?

I hope they can prevent a fire from those rods. That would be a fairly huge disaster.

I think the helicopter pilot who took that famous first video above Chernobyl was dead within days. If those catch on fire while the chopper is above, wouldn't we be talking 100% quick and painful death for the pilot and crew?

[Agloco]

In their current conditions are they difficult to work with? I guess my question ultimately is how safely can people approach rods in that condition? Obviously they should at least try to airlift water in if nothing else, right?

I hope they can prevent a fire from those rods. That would be a fairly huge disaster.

The rods are extraordinarily difficult to manage under these circumstances. If they're exposed as the US suspects, then we're talking potentially lethal doses which can be delivered within a short timeframe (say 10-30 mins) depending on distance from and shielding near the rods. I'm not sure as to how much or the exact decay status of those rods, so I cant give much more than an estimate here.

As a rough guideline, a 5 gray dose over 5 hours is considered to be lethal. This translates to an exposure rate of roughly .016 Sv/min. Note that we've dropped the "milli" from the front of the Sieverts now. A whole different ballgame here.


Any idea as to how much time they have to get those pumps going again before this is likely to happen?

Well, it depends on what the US inspectors mean by "dry". It should be straightforward, but this is an ambiguous term. They shoud have used a number for this....10% left...etc. It would also depend on how much spent fuel is up there and it's decay status. Given that we've seen two flareups already, I'd say not long. Hours perhaps?

Understand that when these rods catch fire, it's not the actual fuel that burns, but rather the cladding which is made of Zirconium. One has to consider the flash point of Zr in relation to the energy density being emitted by those exposed rods. The resulting oxidation and smoke would then carry away the radioactive isotopes a la Chernobyl.


I think the helicopter pilot who took that famous first video above Chernobyl was dead within days. If those catch on fire while the chopper is above, wouldn't we be talking 100% quick and painful death for the pilot and crew?

They could exhibit what we call "prodromal" symptomology (vomiting, diarreha, etc.) even if they leave the scene quickly. Depends on whether or not they are cuaght in the cloud, if they are in direct line of sight with the rods, etc. I'm not sure what the time required would we to drop water, maybe 2-3 minutes in the danger zone? Crews would most definitely need to be rotated out. That would give a dose of about .5 Sv.....quite significant.

Something I'm confused about though is that the crews are said o be back in there working again. I'll keep looking for some more info on the local dose rates there.

[Agloco]

Just some more context, I've found that the dose rates in the plant are on the order of 10-40 rem/hr (as of last night).

For comparison, we usually allow radiation workers about 5 rem/yr.

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/

Dose rates can be found under "Environmental Effects".

[PublicOption]

3973tfsllqw

[Agloco]

Just some more context, I've found that the dose rates in the plant are on the order of 10-40 rem/hr (as of last night).

For comparison, we usually allow radiation workers about 5 rem/yr.

http://www.jaif.or.jp/english/

Dose rates can be found under "Environmental Effects".

For clarification, the dose rates I point out above can be found in the remarks section of "Reactor Update #3" on the JAIF website.

Quote:

"Fire broke on the 4th floor of the Unit-4 Reactor Building around 6AM and the radiation monitor readings increased outside of the building:30mSv between Unit-2 and Unit-3, 400mSv beside Unit-3, 100mSv beside Unit-4 at 10:22.It is estimated that the spent fuels stored in the spent fuel pit heated and hydrogen was generated from these fuels, resulting in the explosion.TEPCO later announced the fire had been extinguished.Other staff and workers than 50 TEPCO employees, who are engaged in water injection operation, have been evacuated"

So for the units we are interested in (3 and 4), the dose rates were 400 mSv and 100 mSv respectively.

For reference: 1 rem = 10 mSv

[jack sommerset]

Manny...You can do this!!!!

9WMb9Yp4u7M

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

An article on Radnet, the US radiation measurement network, in case you're interested:

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-japan-nuclear-usa-20110317,0,1431467.story

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I hope you mean the Japanese Prime Minister.

Um, no. I mean our President. I come to that conclusion cuz we have our idiotic surgeon general scaring people in California to buy iodide pills which in turn is making the pills fly off the shelves and completely selling out. Which in turn will make the people that haven't bought any iodide pills to freak out even more cuz they might get radiation poisoning cuz they have no pills. I know I may be entertaining to you and your crowd of dumb, I mean, one but I think if you want to put your own people at ease, their leader should do so. Yes, Obama is POTUS but I think he or one of his staff could pick up a fucking phone and get some kind of straight answers and let us know what exactly is going. But, yeah, I know. He's a busy man. Is it really that hard to fucking understand how I got to that conclusion Manny?

[cheguevara]

give the Man a break. It's march madness

[Cry Havoc]

Um, no. I mean our President. I come to that conclusion cuz we have our idiotic surgeon general scaring people in California to buy iodide pills which in turn is making the pills fly off the shelves and completely selling out. Which in turn will make the people that haven't bought any iodide pills to freak out even more cuz they might get radiation poisoning cuz they have no pills. I know I may be entertaining to you and your crowd of dumb, I mean, one but I think if you want to put your own people at ease, their leader should do so. Yes, Obama is POTUS but I think he or one of his staff could pick up a fucking phone and get some kind of straight answers and let us know what exactly is going. But, yeah, I know. He's a busy man. Is it really that hard to fucking understand how I got to that conclusion Manny?

It's not hard to understand how after 13 pages you've finally found a way to blame Obama for this. :lol

[boutons_deux]

"let us know what exactly is going"

do you have TV or Internet access?

Depending on any WH or Congres for direction and leadership is like trusting the Repug WH when starting wars, exposes one as a child with daddy problems.

Big Government, please take care of me.

You right-wing assholes hate the govt fire department until your house is on fire.

It seems like the obsession with torturing unconvicted, hyper-dangerous Manning and focusing on Assange (which is exactly what the establishment wants) has caused you to miss the key message of WikiLeaks:

The democratic peoples' governments of total secrecy are lying to us, all the time, about everything, which is also exactly what the corps do.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Um, no. I mean our President. I come to that conclusion cuz we have our idiotic surgeon general scaring people in California to buy iodide pills which in turn is making the pills fly off the shelves and completely selling out. Which in turn will make the people that haven't bought any iodide pills to freak out even more cuz they might get radiation poisoning cuz they have no pills. I know I may be entertaining to you and your crowd of dumb, I mean, one but I think if you want to put your own people at ease, their leader should do so. Yes, Obama is POTUS but I think he or one of his staff could pick up a fucking phone and get some kind of straight answers and let us know what exactly is going. But, yeah, I know. He's a busy man. Is it really that hard to fucking understand how I got to that conclusion Manny?

so unless Obama gets one of his staff out there to clear things up you won't be satisfied. Is that correct?

[LnGrrrR]

How sad would it be that these power plants are right by the damn ocean and they can't get enough water to them, considering the backups were destroyed in the first place by a wall of way too much water...

[Josepatches_]

I think the helicopter pilot who took that famous first video above Chernobyl was dead within days.

True.
The photographer Igor Kostin who took the pictures was lucky and he survived.

But they used more helicopters after this.



The fire was extinguished by a combined effort of helicopters dropping over 5,000 metric tons of sand, lead, clay, and boron onto the burning reactor and injection of liquid nitrogen. Ukrainian filmmaker Vladimir Shevchenko captured film footage of an Mi-8 helicopter as it collided with a nearby construction crane, causing the helicopter to fall near the damaged reactor building and kill its four-man crew.[32]
From eyewitness accounts of the firefighters involved before they died (as reported on the CBC television series Witness), one described his experience of the radiation as "tasting like metal," and feeling a sensation similar to that of pins and needles all over his face

[Cry Havoc]

They need another tsunami

You insensitive bastard!

[Viva Las Espuelas]

squawk squawk

Um, in 30 words, no. Maybe get your brilliant girlfriend to break down what I said. She may know how blame is spelled.

[Cry Havoc]

Um, in 30 words, no. Maybe get your brilliant girlfriend to break down what I said. She may know how blame is spelled.

"They're intentionally obfuscating information from their own people, but surely they'll be forthcoming with their neighbors across the fucking Atlantic Ocean who won't be affected in any conceivable way from this! All we have to do is pick up a phone and ask them and the details they won't share with their own who may be in danger or dying will come tumbling out of their mouths! It's bulletproof!"

[Viva Las Espuelas]

so unless Obama gets one of his staff out there to clear things up you won't be satisfied. Is that correct?

I really could care less if he did or didn't. He's super busy so I understand if he doesn't address what his Surgeon General told californians to do. If he's ok with her fearmongering and people scrambling for these pills then so am I. Seems fair. And I slept well last night, and without a doubt, tonight as well.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

So, Agloco. Is that just regular water that they're dumping on the reactors?

[CosmicCowboy]

So, Agloco. Is that just regular water that they're dumping on the reactors?

seawater

[Cry Havoc]

So, Agloco. Is that just regular water that they're dumping on the reactors?

They're picking it up from the sea and dumping it. Nothing special about it.

[CosmicCowboy]

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Slideshows/_production/ss-Japan-Quake-tabbed/Day7_ss110316-japanquake/ss-110316-japanQuake-jc-06.grid-5x2.jpg

[Agloco]

Um, no. I mean our President. I come to that conclusion cuz we have our idiotic surgeon general scaring people in California to buy iodide pills which in turn is making the pills fly off the shelves and completely selling out. Which in turn will make the people that haven't bought any iodide pills to freak out even more cuz they might get radiation poisoning cuz they have no pills. I know I may be entertaining to you and your crowd of dumb, I mean, one but I think if you want to put your own people at ease, their leader should do so. Yes, Obama is POTUS but I think he or one of his staff could pick up a fucking phone and get some kind of straight answers and let us know what exactly is going. But, yeah, I know. He's a busy man. Is it really that hard to fucking understand how I got to that conclusion Manny?

If you actually go through the trouble of looking......

This is a blog for the lay-person:
http://public-blog.nrc-gateway.gov/

This is the official NRC website:

http://www.nrc.gov/

If your fingers have enough strength, you might be able to click on the "Potassium Iodide in Emergency Planning" link under Key Topics to get some info on that as well. Caution: this requires reading. Are you up to the task?

This is a npr press release of the official NRC assessment on the ground:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=134600420

Another caveat for you: Reading involved........

There's plenty more where that came from. Trouble yourself to learn a bit instead of politicizing everything.

[jack sommerset]

give the Man a break. It's march madness

He picked the 4 number one seeds to make final 4.

[Agloco]

So, Agloco. Is that just regular water that they're dumping on the reactors?

As CC stated, it's seawater. About 3% NaCl and various other goodies in there.

[Cry Havoc]

He picked the 4 number one seeds to make final 4.

He said he's never done that before, but yeah, I was scratching my head at that. This is a year that I could see ZERO #1 seeds making the Final Four. There are no dominant teams this year, and lots of parity.

[CosmicCowboy]

He said he's never done that before, but yeah, I was scratching my head at that. This is a year that I could see ZERO #1 seeds making the Final Four. There are no dominant teams this year, and lots of parity.

Hopefully Ohio State is the first to get upset tomorrow.

[LnGrrrR]

You insensitive bastard!

You think that's bad, I joked that

INSENSITIVE JOKE ALERT




Japan will be the setting for the upcoming Fallout LARP.

[MannyIsGod]

Viva is the gift that keeps on giving.

[Cry Havoc]

You think that's bad, I joked that

INSENSITIVE JOKE ALERT




Japan will be the setting for the upcoming Fallout LARP.

I wonder how long it will be before the "Too soon" labels come off, and we see a tsunami in a moderately realistic game like Fallout.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah. I'm not buying that nor am I put at ease over that statement. Especially after that earlier post saying there's no water in the spent rod reactor, if that's true. Someones gonna have to start wearing some big boy pants and tell everyone what exactly is going down. Dare I say, Mr President?


Um, no. I mean our President. I come to that conclusion cuz we have our idiotic surgeon general scaring people in California to buy iodide pills which in turn is making the pills fly off the shelves and completely selling out. Which in turn will make the people that haven't bought any iodide pills to freak out even more cuz they might get radiation poisoning cuz they have no pills. I know I may be entertaining to you and your crowd of dumb, I mean, one but I think if you want to put your own people at ease, their leader should do so. Yes, Obama is POTUS but I think he or one of his staff could pick up a fucking phone and get some kind of straight answers and let us know what exactly is going. But, yeah, I know. He's a busy man. Is it really that hard to fucking understand how I got to that conclusion Manny?

Number one, its a Japanese problem. Obama isn't responsible for shit that happens in Japan and the fact that you want him to start figuring out this crisis for you is amusing as shit.

Second of all, you made no mention of California on your initial post but I suspect you realize just how stupid you sounded so you played it in.

You also make some stupid assumptions that Obama isn't trying to get informed. But why wouldn't you? I'm sure there was a picture with him and a bracket sometime in the past few days so that means he's obviously not getting information on the subject.

You notice how pretty much every post you make ends up with you being ridiculed? Yeah, I guess thats just the crowd of dumb and not you being a complete fucking moron. :tu

[hater]

"It's like a squirt gun, using a squirt gun against a raging forest fire. They're overwhelmed, they're floundering, they don't know what to do,"

http://science.discovery.com/time-travel/images/michio-kaku-215.jpg

[LnGrrrR]

I wonder how long it will be before the "Too soon" labels come off, and we see a tsunami in a moderately realistic game like Fallout.

Two, three years at most.

[Cry Havoc]

"Excuse me, Mr. Prime Minister? I know you're busy trying to recover the bodies of tens of thousands of your citizens, restore power to the most populous city on Earth, rebuild your completely disintegrated northern infrastructure, AND contain a nuclear disaster that could kill or poison tens to hundreds of thousands of more people if it melts down fully, but could you spare some resources to spoon-feed some information to regurgitate to our press that our own NRC has already stated so that our citizens won't get all scared? People are worried over here that they might wake up with a nominal dose of radiation."

Viva, trying to hold Obama's feet to the fire. :lol

[mouse]

The problem with radiation is not what the wall mart meters detect on your shoes it's the shit in your lungs that gets past the radio shack devices that will give you Cancer.

You people just don't get it. Maybe 30 years from now when they are removing one of your testicles you will.

[hater]

"Six tons of Plutonium in reactor 4 - it takes only 0.015 tons to build a nuclear bomb. It takes only a single Plutonium Atom to cause cancer. "

[Cry Havoc]

The problem with radiation is not what the wall mart meters detect on your shoes it's the shit in your lungs that gets past the radio shack devices that will give you Cancer.

You people just don't get it. Maybe 30 years from now when they are removing one of your testicles you will.

Great scientific analysis.

[Cry Havoc]

"Six tons of Plutonium in reactor 4 - it takes only 0.015 tons to build a nuclear bomb. It takes only a single Plutonium Atom to cause cancer. "

http://www.dragoart.com/tuts/pics/5/376/how-to-draw-stewie-griffin-from-the-family-guy.jpg

"Finally!"

[Agloco]

"Six tons of Plutonium in reactor 4 - it takes only 0.015 tons to build a nuclear bomb. It takes only a single Plutonium Atom to cause cancer. "

Theoretically, it only takes one of anything to make things go awry. To be quite honest, you're at much greater risk from background radiation than from one Pu atom.

Oh, and assuming you're taking about weapons grade Pu for a bomb (those 6 tons you mentioned are reactor grade), it takes roughly 10 lbs to reach criticality (.005 tons).

[RandomGuy]

The problem with radiation is not what the wall mart meters detect on your shoes it's the shit in your lungs that gets past the radio shack devices that will give you Cancer.

You people just don't get it. Maybe 30 years from now when they are removing one of your testicles you will.

Carcinogenic chemicals are much more likely to get you. Especially if you are a heavy smoker.

[Agloco]

The problem with radiation is not what the wall mart meters detect on your shoes it's the shit in your lungs that gets past the radio shack devices that will give you Cancer.

You people just don't get it. Maybe 30 years from now when they are removing one of your testicles you will.

Relax mouse. Relax.

Take a chill........err a potassium iodide pill.

[Agloco]

Carcinogenic chemicals are much more likely to get you. Especially if you are a heavy smoker.

Indeed, although you do get a few more chest x-rays from smoking as cigs are radioactive as well.

[mouse]

Carcinogenic chemicals are much more likely to get you. Especially if you are a heavy smoker.


Sorry but smoking a pack of Kool's everyday doesn't produce this.



http://www.newint.org/features/2008/06/01/412-17-nuclear-test-victim.jpg

[mouse]

Great scientific analysis.

Only those born with testicles would understand so your exempt by default.

[Cry Havoc]

Sorry but smoking a pack of Kool's everyday doesn't produce this.



http://www.newint.org/features/2008/06/01/412-17-nuclear-test-victim.jpg

Fortunately I live a kinda far away from Pripyat or Fukushima.

[Cry Havoc]

Only those with crackpot theories would understand so your exempt by default.

:tu Understood.

[Cry Havoc]

Dude you can't trust that geiger counter from wal-mart bro!

[mouse]

Trust me you don't need a fancy electronically device just find an old 6 dollar Kodak camera.



http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/radiation.jpg

[hater]

I kinda with mouse on this. Whenever a scientist says on national TV "we're not really sure what the effects gonna be" means it could be very very bad

or "there is no factual data to predict what's gonna happen"

this is a first and we'll find out what happens as it happens

[hater]

and LOL at those apologist on tv and on the web saying "this is not going to be even close as bad as Chernobyl"

so fucking what??? even if this is 1/10th or even 1/20th as bad as Chernobyl. It is a fuckup of epic proportions.

[Cry Havoc]

I kinda with mouse on this. Whenever a scientist says on national TV "we're not really sure what the effects gonna be" means it could be very very bad

or "there is no factual data to predict what's gonna happen"

this is a first and we'll find out what happens as it happens

I don't understand the panic. Scientists may not know what's going to happen around Fukushima, but they're >99.9% certain that it won't affect the U.S. What evidence do you have to suggest otherwise? Mouse is just fanning the flames of hyperbolic world-destruction, the same as he always does. Funny thing is, he does it with very little credible scientific information on his part.

[Cry Havoc]

and LOL at those apologist on tv and on the web saying "this is not going to be even close as bad as Chernobyl"

so fucking what??? even if this is 1/10th or even 1/20th as bad as Chernobyl. It is a fuckup of epic proportions.

Chernobyl was a worst-case scenario and didn't affect the U.S. If this is 1/20th as bad as Chernobyl, what are you worried about?

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm also tired of hearing that the good news is that it's blowing out into the Pacific Ocean. What are the long term effects of THAT on the food chain?

[mouse]

There was a lady on NBC yesterday that said people should not take the iodine pills unless they are exposed to radiation when the day before she said the don't take the pills unless you think you may be contaminated that they don't work if you already have radiation contamination.

Where do they find these experts?

[hater]

Chernobyl was a worst-case scenario and didn't affect the U.S. If this is 1/20th as bad as Chernobyl, what are you worried about?

"They survived a nuclear war but could not comprehend what it meant, radioactive isotopes in the water, the air, and accumulating and magnifying along the food chain and therefore in themselves. Can we? Do we generally understand that each and everyone of us is a part of the global food chain, a part of the global flows of matter and energy? And the North Pacific is the World's major fishing ground..."

[CosmicCowboy]

There was a lady on NBC yesterday that said people should not take the iodine pills unless they are exposed to radiation when the day before she said the don't take the pills unless you think you may be contaminated that they don't work if you already have radiation contamination.

Where do they find these experts?

The point of the pills is to saturate your thyroid with the benign iodine so it doesn't pick up the radioactive iodine...and won't the radioactive iodine threat be over in a week or so? Do the pills even do anything for Cesium 137?

[Cry Havoc]

There was a lady on NBC yesterday that said people should not take the iodine pills unless they are exposed to radiation when the day before she said the don't take the pills unless you think you may be contaminated that they don't work if you already have radiation contamination.

Where do they find these experts?

Uh. It's NBC. What the fuck are you expecting?

[Cry Havoc]

"They survived a nuclear war but could not comprehend what it meant, radioactive isotopes in the water, the air, and accumulating and magnifying along the food chain and therefore in themselves. Can we? Do we generally understand that each and everyone of us is a part of the global food chain, a part of the global flows of matter and energy? And the North Pacific is the World's major fishing ground..."

Yes. We all know this is a horrific disaster that's going to affect people. The subject, however, is direct impact of exposure to airborne radiation on people in the western United States. As of now, there's no evidence that it will impact anyone in a form that panicking and rushing to the supermarket to buy iodine is going to change anything. That's the point being made, not that this is innocuous and will not have any impacts on the environment down the road.

[mouse]

I don't understand the panic.


Don't confuse posting facts as panicking. This isn't a topic about the Spurs vs the Heat.



Scientists may not know

We get it they only "know" shit when it comes to how old the earth is,how the universe was created,how man was created,how much life is in space, etc.....

cancer and radiation just slips their minds.



but they're >99.9% certain that it won't affect the U.S. What evidence do you have to suggest otherwise?

Your not worthy of trying to educate keep reading your science books,




Mouse is just fanning the flames of hyperbolic world-destruction, the same as he always does.

Well then if you feel that way why ask me for evidence?

Why are you not asking your Science book worshiping friends like wild cobra,ruffNreadyOzstyle,Blake,Chump Dumper, Pyzix, and RandomLie?

[mouse]

Uh. It's NBC. What the fuck are you expecting?

Just the usual Judge Judy and Celebrity Apprentice.

[hater]

Yes. We all know this is a horrific disaster that's going to affect people. The subject, however, is direct impact of exposure to airborne radiation on people in the western United States. As of now, there's no evidence that it will impact anyone in a form that panicking and rushing to the supermarket to buy iodine is going to change anything. That's the point being made, not that this is innocuous and will not have any impacts on the environment down the road.

u asked how it will affect USA. I showed you through food chain.

again, nobody knows for sure how or at what level it will affect airbornewise. Motherfuckers say it's no more radiation than from your cellphone. Really? what if the plutonioum (which we know for a fact is there) is spread. Do you know any cellphones that emit plutonium radiation??

Those pills are worthless vs. plutonioum/cecium radiation BTW. a waste. Stupid idiots those who are purchasing them in USA.

[mouse]

The point of the pills is to saturate your thyroid with the benign iodine so it doesn't pick up the radioactive iodine...and won't the radioactive iodine threat be over in a week or so? Do the pills even do anything for Cesium 137?

I am no pharmacists but I am sure if there was a wonder pill someone from Chernobyl may have asked CVS Pharmacy for a bottle by now.

In the Army we were given Iodine pills to help purify drinking water, we also carried two injections with us one for Radiation one for nerve gas exposure.

What were in those needles only the Military and maybe someone from Halliburton knows. It's kinda like getting an STD in prison does it really matter if Penicillin helps, you still got fucked in the ass.

[Cry Havoc]

Don't confuse posting facts as panicking. This isn't a topic about the Spurs vs the Heat.

We get it they only "know" shit when it comes to how old the earth is,how the universe was created,how man was created,how much life is in space, etc.....

cancer and radiation just slips their minds.

Your not worthy of trying to educate keep reading your science books,

Well then if you feel that way why ask me for evidence?

Why are you not asking your Science book worshiping friends like wild cobra,ruffNreadyOzstyle,Blake,Chump Dumper, Pyzix, and RandomLie?

lol sigworthy quotes from mouse. :lmao

[hater]

Japan: Just 48 hours to avoid 'another Chernobyl'
By Gordon Rayner and Martin Evans, The Daily Telegraph March 16, 2011
Nuclear safety officials in France said they were "pessimistic" about whether engineers could prevent a meltdown at the Fukushima power plant after a pool containing spent fuel rods overheated and boiled dry.

Radiation levels were "extremely high" in the stricken building, which was breached by an earlier explosion, meaning that radiation could now escape into the atmosphere. Tokyo Electric, the owners of the plant, said five workers had been killed at the site, two were missing and 21 had been injured.

As Japan resorted to increasingly desperate measures - including dumping water on the site from helicopters - there were accusations that the situation was now "out of control".


The Foreign Office responded to the latest developments by advising all British citizens to leave Tokyo - which is 150 miles south of the plant - and the whole of northern Japan.


The EU has even urged member states to check Japanese food imports for radioactivity. Yuhei Sato, the governor of the Fukushima region, criticized the government, saying that the "anxiety and anger" of residents had "reached a boiling point".

Emperor Akihito made a rare address to the nation, urging the Japanese to pull together, but hinted at his own fears for the nuclear crisis saying: "I hope things will not get worse."


In London, the FTSE-100 share index slumped as news of the latest emergency emerged, closing 1.7 per cent down.


The official death toll from last Friday's earthquake and tsunami now stands at 4,314, with another 8,606 listed as missing.


Thousands of people still waiting for food aid in the remotest areas of the disaster zone endured fresh misery yesterday as heavy snow began to fall across northern Japan. But all eyes were on the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant as Japanese authorities admitted concerns over rising temperatures in three pools containing spent fuel rods.


A failure of the cooling system that has crippled the entire plant led water in the No 4 pool to begin to boil. If the water evaporates and exposes the rods, a meltdown could occur, and last night the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission [USNRC] said there was no water left in the pool, resulting in "extremely high" radiation levels.


An earlier fire and explosion in the No 4 reactor building is thought to have breached the protective walls around the pool. A statement from the USNRC said: "We believe that secondary containment has been destroyed and there is no water in the spent fuel pool and we believe that radiation levels are extremely high which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures."


Attempts to cool the site by dumping seawater from helicopters had to be aborted at one stage because of dangerous radiation levels in the air above the plant. A police water cannon was brought in to help blast water into the overheating reactors and pools, but there were warnings that it may be too late to prevent a disaster.


Thierry Charles, a safety official at France's Institute for Radiological Protection and Nuclear Safety, [IRSN] said: "The next 48 hours will be decisive. I am pessimistic, because since Sunday I have seen that almost none of the solutions has worked." He described the situation as "a major risk", but added: "All is not lost, and I hope that the Japanese can find a way."

Asked about the maximum possible amount of radioactive release, he said "it would be in the same range as Chernobyl".

Francois Baroin, a French government spokesman, went further, saying: "In the worst of cases, it could have an impact worse than Chernobyl." He added: "Let's not beat about the bush. They have visibly lost the essential of control. That is our analysis, in any case, it's not what they are saying."

Malcolm Grimston, a British nuclear expert at the Chatham House think tank, played down suggestions of an impending disaster, saying Fukushima was not like Chernobyl.


"We're nearly five days after the fission process was stopped, the levels of radioactive iodine will only be about two-thirds of where they were at the start, some of the other, very short-lived, very radioactive material will be gone altogether by now," he said.


Earlier, Nathalie Kosciusko-Morizet, France's ecology minister, had said that "the worst scenario is possible and even probable". At one point, radiation levels at the plant rose to such dangerous levels that all workers were evacuated from the site. A 180-strong team was later allowed back to continue attempts to cool the fuel rods, but the government raised the maximum allowable radiation exposure for workers from 100 millsieverts per year to 250 mSvs, which it said was "unavoidable due to the circumstances".


The fuel rod pools contain spent uranium rods which remain extremely radioactive after being used in the reactor, and have to be constantly cooled until safe for disposal. In a statement, the IRSN said: "Without water replenishment, the fuel-rod assemblies will start to be exposed in a few days. If the pool runs dry, this would eventually lead to the meltdown of the fuel Ö The corresponding releases of radioactivity would be far higher than those that have occurred up till now."


The Pentagon ordered its armed forces, which had been sent to Japan to help with the relief effort, to retreat to 50 miles away from the plant, more than four times the 12-mile limit imposed by the Japanese government.


Yukiya Amano, the IAEA's director general, said the situation was "very serious" and announced he would fly to Japan on Thursday for a first-hand briefing on the crisis.


Read more: http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Japan+Just+hours+avoid+another+Chernobyl/4451504/story.html#ixzz1Gt7ifqqf

[boutons_deux]

Danger of Spent Fuel Outweighs Reactor Threat
Keith Bradsher and Hiroko Tabuchi | Thursday 17 March 2011

Years of procrastination in deciding on long-term disposal of highly radioactive fuel rods from nuclear reactors is now coming back to haunt Japanese authorities as they try to control fires and explosions at the stricken Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station.

Some countries have tried to limit the number of spent fuel rods that accumulate at nuclear power plants — Germany stores them in costly casks, for example, while Chinese nuclear reactors send them to a desert storage compound in western China’s Gansu province. But Japan, like the United States, has kept ever larger numbers of spent fuel rods in temporary storage pools at the power plants, where they can be guarded with the same security provided for the power plant.

Figures provided by Tokyo Electric Power on Thursday show that most of the dangerous uranium at the power plant is actually in the spent fuel rods, not the reactor cores themselves. The electric utility said that a total of 11,195 spent fuel rod assemblies were stored at the site.

That is in addition to 400 to 600 fuel rod assemblies that had been in active service in each of the three troubled reactors. In other words, the vast majority of the fuel assemblies at the troubled reactors are in the storage pools, not the reactors.

http://www.truth-out.org/print/68551

[hater]

lBXqiw6EJUk

[mouse]

radiation 25 years later.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/io9/2009/09/Chernobyl-Today-A-Creepy-Story-told-in-Pictures-radation.jpg

[boutons_deux]

If Japan doesn't store at the site, and their country is too small and too geographically unstable, what could they do?

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf69.html

========

In October 1976, fear of nuclear weapons proliferation (especially after India demonstrated nuclear weapons capabilities using reprocessing technology) led President Gerald Ford to issue a Presidential directive to indefinitely suspend the commercial reprocessing and recycling of plutonium in the U.S. On April 7, 1977 , President Jimmy Carter banned the reprocessing of commercial reactor spent nuclear fuel. The key issue driving this policy was the serious threat of nuclear weapons proliferation by diversion of plutonium from the civilian fuel cycle, and to encourage other nations to follow the USA lead.[4] . After that, only countries that already had large investments in reprocessing infrastructure continued to reprocess spent nuclear fuel. President Reagan lifted the ban in 1981, but did not provide the substantial subsidy that would have been necessary to start up commercial reprocessing.[5]

In March 1999, the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) reversed its own policy and signed a contract with a consortium of Duke Energy, COGEMA, and Stone & Webster (DCS) to design and operate a Mixed Oxide (MOX) fuel fabrication facility. Site preparation at the Savannah River Site (South Carolina) began in October 2005.[6][7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reprocessing

=======

Note that UCA is not in the nuclear fuel waste repro game at all.

We have to ask WC why private companies haven't gotten into that game. St Ronnie refused to subsidize, although a reprocessing industry would have greatly assisted the UCA's mgmt of nuclear fuel garbage, one of the huge obstacles to going nuclear (actually, Wall St is the biggest obstacle).

[mouse]

The bottom-line all the excuses why people use nuclear power doesn't wash. You mess with the bull you get the horns. If you allow your child to play with ants there is a possibility he or she may get stung.

You build an outhouse in your backyard you may smell shit. Why are humans so ignorant?

The sooner this planet pulls it's head out of it's contaminated ass the better.

[MannyIsGod]

The more I read these threads the more it becomes apparent how little people know about radiation and radioactive elements.

[Cry Havoc]

The more I read these threads the more it becomes apparent how little people know about radiation and radioactive elements.

It's amazing what not reading, studying, or researching a subject will do for preventing you from knowing much about it.

[CosmicCowboy]

So is there a news blackout in effect in Japan? I haven't heard or read anything new all day...

[hater]

Rolling blackouts because their power plants are overworked

oh my bad u meant news blackout

read last 4 pages of this thread...

[CosmicCowboy]

Rolling blackouts because their power plants are overworked

oh my bad u meant news blackout

read last 4 pages of this thread...

None of thats new stuff...

[CosmicCowboy]

Apparently no news is good news...

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/17/us-japan-nuclear-iaea-idUSTRE72G7BJ20110317


(Reuters) - The situation at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant was serious but "reasonably stable" Thursday with no major worsening since the day before, a senior U.N. nuclear watchdog official said.

[Agloco]

"They survived a nuclear war but could not comprehend what it meant, radioactive isotopes in the water, the air, and accumulating and magnifying along the food chain and therefore in themselves. Can we? Do we generally understand that each and everyone of us is a part of the global food chain, a part of the global flows of matter and energy? And the North Pacific is the World's major fishing ground..."

We really need to see what the total amount of fallout is first before we can talk about its potential effects, if any, on the global food chain.

Dose is inversely proportional to the mass irradiated as well. This will mean less dose for larger organisms. Again, how much dose exactly will depend on the fallout mass.

For now, feel free to take a step back from the ledge.


The point of the pills is to saturate your thyroid with the benign iodine so it doesn't pick up the radioactive iodine...and won't the radioactive iodine threat be over in a week or so? Do the pills even do anything for Cesium 137?

The major Iodine isotope which is present in radioactive fallout of this nature is I-131. It has a half life of 8 days meaning that it will take just over 2.5 months for it's dose contribution to be considered negligible. Potassium Iodide does nothing to counteract cesium 137. You'd need Prussian Blue for that. 1g TID.

Both of these emit betas and gammas, with both gammas being fairly energetic. The RBE (relative biologic effect) for both is the same though meaning the dose equivalents are the same whether or not you're exposed externally or internally. Distance tends to help with beta emissions as they have a range in air on the order of 10-15 feet.


We get it they only "know" shit when it comes to how old the earth is,how the universe was created,how man was created,how much life is in space, etc.....

cancer and radiation just slips their minds.


Read about stochastic biologic processes and molecular cancer induction in your spare time. You might catch on to why those things are not discussed in definite terms as you'd prefer.

Oh, and I don't claim to "know" shit........I claim to "know shit". :lol



again, nobody knows for sure how or at what level it will affect airbornewise. Motherfuckers say it's no more radiation than from your cellphone. Really? what if the plutonioum (which we know for a fact is there) is spread. Do you know any cellphones that emit plutonium radiation??

They're talking about magnitude here, not the quality of the radiation. Quite actually, given the choice you'd want the Pu radiation against your ear. It's an alpha emitter and as such is blocked by your skin. Just make sure to switch ears when the heat builds up.

[Drachen]

The more I read these threads the more it becomes apparent how little people know about radiation and radioactive elements.

Nothing like a disaster to motivate people to learn. I will absolutely admit, I have learned more from what has been posted here the last few days (primarily from agloco) than I had the previous 31 years of my life. Why? because I have never needed it and nothing had happened to pique my interest to study it for the sake of studying it.

[Agloco]

In the Army we were given Iodine pills to help purify drinking water, we also carried two injections with us one for Radiation one for nerve gas exposure.

More than likely Amifostine and Atropine.

[mouse]

More than likely Amifostine and Atropine.

What ever it was I think its for moral and motivation. Nerve gas once it hits you all the needles in the world is not going to do shit.

It's like giving someone who lost a leg 1/2 off at payless shoes. I was at secret meeting back in 1980 were our group was shown a video of how the gas mask used by the Army compares to the gas mask used by the USSR.

They had six animals in a room 3 had USSR gas masks 3 had US Army gas masks

they released a very small vile of Nerve gas in seconds 4 animals started to shake the three with the US Army gas masks lay down and died one with the USSR mask died but after it shook longer, and two lived. they were wearing the USSR gas mask.

We knew the American forces were fucked, It takes years for the military to change their gear. So many of us at Bragg purchased our own masks from a supplier who sold AK 47s and other Russian shit.

[CosmicCowboy]

What ever it was I think its for moral and motivation. Nerve gas once it hits you all the needles in the world is not going to do shit.

It's like giving someone who lost a leg 1/2 off at payless shoes. I was at secret meeting back in 1980 were our group was shown a video of how the gas mask used by the Army compares to the gas mask used by the USSR.

They had six animals in a room 3 had USSR gas masks 3 had US Army gas masks

they released a very small vile of Nerve gas in seconds 4 animals started to shake the three with the US Army gas masks lay down and died one with the USSR mask died but after it shook longer, and two lived. they were wearing the USSR gas mask.

We knew the American forces were fucked, It takes years for the military to change their gear. So many of us at Bragg purchased our own masks from a supplier who sold AK 47s and other Russian shit.

That video was Russian propaganda to get the stupid soldiers to throw away their good US masks and buy surplus Russian shit...:p:

[ChumpDumper]

lol generic animals

[Slomo]

Latest meltdown

http://cgi.ebay.com/Potassium-Iodide-Radiation-Iodine-Anti-Radiation-FAMILY-/320672549822?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa992cbbe

[Agloco]

It's like giving someone who lost a leg 1/2 off at payless shoes.

Like a black fly in my chardonnay? Or a death-row pardon 2 minutes too late? :lol

[Agloco]

Nothing like a disaster to motivate people to learn. I will absolutely admit, I have learned more from what has been posted here the last few days (primarily from agloco) than I had the previous 31 years of my life. Why? because I have never needed it and nothing had happened to pique my interest to study it for the sake of studying it.

I figured that since most residents tune me out at 5am and most graduate students do the same no matter the time of day I'd give it a whirl in a local sports forum. Who knew?

Glad I could be of service to you. :toast




Latest meltdown

http://cgi.ebay.com/Potassium-Iodide-Radiation-Iodine-Anti-Radiation-FAMILY-/320672549822?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa992cbbe

Capitalism at work. :tu

[LnGrrrR]

Actually, the nerve gas needle is fairly effective, assuming you use it AS SOON as you recognize symptoms. Like, within the first minute.

Otherwise, yeah you're probably screwed.

[DarrinS]

http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm/6879/Dangerous-Fallout-From-Japans-Nuclear-Panic

Dangerous Fallout From Japan’s Nuclear Panic





With news of Japan’s once-in-300-year earthquake and resulting tsunami, Secretary Clinton announced “We just had our Air Force assets in Japan transport some really important coolant to one of the nuclear plants.” Rep. Ed Markey (D., MA) has warned of “another Chernobyl,” saying “the same thing could happen here.” Amidst the chaos, the media has been reporting on the next “big fear” and CNN has shown their ignorance by presenting schematics of pressurized water reactors, when the Japanese reactors are boiling water reactors.


Because the concept of nuclear power is foreign to most of us, panic is easily created. Senator Lieberman, a long-time nuclear supporter, now wants to “put the brakes on” nuclear power plant construction in the US. Those who really understand nuclear energy usually have advanced degrees in physics. Words like reactors, meltdown, core damage, neutrons, half-life and radioactive, make us susceptible to Hollywood-like, worst-case scenarios.


In fact, the US did not send “coolant” to Japan. Remember, the plants in Japan operate on water—usually de-mineralizd. In this earthquake/tsunami drama, the plants perfectly withstood the first hit of a 9.0—even though that was considerably more intense than the intended design. The redundancy engineered into the system kicked in. Though the reactors shut down as they were supposed to, they do not cool off immediately. The diesel-powered generators pumped the water to continue cooling. Then the wave hit and knocked them out. Even then, batteries kept the pumps working until mobile generators could be brought in. These procedures bought time and allowed for precautions. With the help of the additional generators, seawater (abundant in an island nation) has been used to expedite the cooling—even though its corrosiveness means the reactors will never be usable again. The more time elapsed, the cooler the fuel. The longer this goes on, the greater the likelihood that the only thing overblown is fear.


The Chernobyl comment, once again, plays on a fundamental lack of understanding (or deliberately ignores scientific principles of nuclear energy) and stirs up fear. What happened with the Chernobyl reactor, is not possible with the Japanese or US light water reactors. The designs are fundamentally different and that plant could not have been licensed here or in Japan. Today’s nuclear plants have corrected the flaws with lessons from the Chernobyl incident. Likewise, the failure of the generators that provided electricity to pump the cooling water following the tsunami (Generation II design) have already been fixed in current designs (Generation III).


So what is the fear? Why is the news media all nuclear, all the time?


The concern is the potential exposure to high levels of radiation. This, too, is an overreaction. Bad news sells. As was revealed through a comment made during a hearing in which I participated for proposed uranium mining, the public perception is that there is “no acceptable amount of radiation”—which implies that radiation is a man-made, bad thing, not naturally present in nature. The NY Times reported that “Radiation levels around the plant spiked after the explosion to 8,217 microsieverts an hour…” Which sounds really scary if you do not understand that 8,217 microsieverts an hour is equivalent to 0.8 rem/hour (10 millisieverts = 1 rem). Background radiation (that naturally found in nature) is around 0.3 rem/yr and workers are allowed 5 rem/yr. So this “spike” says that you should avoid being near the plant for more than a few hours. This is a problem because the pool of workers with the needed expertise is limited. Now experts from across the globe are arriving in Japan to help out. If the situation were truly threatening, those from other countries who know better would not voluntarily walk into the plant.


To put “radiation” into perspective, natural radiation comes from cosmic rays and the sun. Those of us who live at a higher altitude receive 2-3 times the radiation of those at sea level. The atmosphere provides some shielding. Mountain dwellers receive more radiation in a year than nuclear power plant workers get at sea level. Flat-landers are often surprised at how quickly they get sun burned when they are at higher elevations. One of the biggest concerns about radiation is cancer—which is why there is such emphasis on sunscreen.


Additionally, radiation comes from minerals found in mountainous places such as the Rockies. The combination of the high altitude and the naturally occurring radioactive minerals gives someone in Denver annual radiation exposure of two to three times the radiation exposure of someone on the East Coast—yet Denver is repeatedly one of America’s healthiest cities. Health studies have found that populations who live and work near uranium facilities have no differences from those who do not. Clearly there is “acceptable” radiation; we live in it all the time. Workers and residents in Japan are being monitored.


Japan has 55 nuclear reactors and 30% of their electricity comes from nuclear power. Thirteen reactors, at three power plants were in the quake zone. Of those, only one has released any increased radiation, They basically let off steam—which contained low levels of radioactivity. Because of seawater being used as “coolant,” the steam is slightly more radioactive due to the salt and other trace minerals in the ocean. The steam was deliberated vented into ancillary buildings to allow the reactor vessels to cool. However, inside the buildings, hydrogen that came out of the steam blew the roof off. This made great television and added fear, but the containment vessels and their systems remained intact. The blast was not a “nuclear explosion” and was a known and accepted risk that successfully allowed the radioactivity to diminish at the site.


Preoccupation with the nuclear plants has diverted attention from the much greater tragedy that has taken place—the likely death of over 10,000 persons from the earthquake and tsunami that has struck Japan. As William Tucker said in the Wall Street Journal, “With all the death, devastation and disease now threatening tens of thousands in Japan, it is trivializing and almost obscene to spend so much time worrying about damage to a nuclear reactor.” The biggest crisis inflicted on Japan would have occurred with, or without, nuclear power.


As humans, we cannot control the earth—though we sure do try, but we feel we can control other eventualities. Hence, the intense focus on the reactors and radiation. We can control them. We should learn from the past, but move into the future.


Instead of offering suggested improvements as a result of the Japan earthquake, Senator Lieberman wants to put the brakes on American nuclear development. Yes, questions should be asked. The biggest one should be about an all-of-the-above energy portfolio: oil, gas coal, nuclear/uranium, hydro, wind and solar—unlike Japan, we are rich in resources. Without nuclear power, America could be facing the same supply-demand gap a post-earthquake Japan is experiencing. Blackouts are causing mass confusion and delays. Consumers are being asked to cut back on energy.


What we can learn from the Japan earthquake is that the forty-year old nuclear power plant design performed better than expected. And, like the Fukushima Daiichi plant is far advanced and a completely different design than Chernobyl. Today’s Generation III and IV reactors are literally generations ahead of their predecessors. In the US we have twenty-one applications for new reactors.


Our energy needs will not go down, but, if we allow the nuclear panic to reign, our energy availability will be reduced. Before nuclear power was embraced in Japan, they relied on imported oil, gas and coal for their energy. Without nuclear power, we, too, will have to be more dependent on fossil fuels.


The most dangerous potential fallout from Japan’s earthquake could be the inability to be energy autonomous in thirty years. America’s future mandates a greater emphasis on energy and nuclear energy is an important part.

[mouse]

Actually, the nerve gas needle is fairly effective, assuming you use it AS SOON as you recognize symptoms. Like, within the first minute.

Otherwise, yeah you're probably screwed.

But you must admit you can see how the average Joe is misinformed. So I will try another analogy.

If you start to feel another mans penis enter your ass your gay no matter how fast you react to it.

(that was for the johnsmith's of the forum who may not get the "it's too late" scenario).

[Agloco]

http://www.energytribune.com/articles.cfm/6879/Dangerous-Fallout-From-Japans-Nuclear-Panic

Dangerous Fallout From Japan’s Nuclear Panic


What we can learn from the Japan earthquake is that the forty-year old nuclear power plant design performed better than expected. And, like the Fukushima Daiichi plant is far advanced and a completely different design than Chernobyl. Today’s Generation III and IV reactors are literally generations ahead of their predecessors. In the US we have twenty-one applications for new reactors.

Finally, a cooler head prevails.

[Drachen]

Finally, a cooler head prevails.

Prevails is probably the wrong word... at the very least it is too soon to use that word. :lol

[Winehole23]

U.S. government nuclear experts believe a spent fuel pool at Japan's (http://www.latimes.com/topic/intl/japan-PLGEO000001.topic) crippled Fukushima reactor complex has a breach in the wall or floor, a situation that creates a major obstacle to refilling the pool with cooling water and keeping dangerous levels of radiation from escaping.

That assessment by U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission officials is based on the sequence of events since the earthquake and information provided by key American contractors who were in the plant at the time, said government officials familiar with the evaluation. It was compelling evidence, they said, that the wall of the No. 4 reactor pool has a significant hole or crack.

Unlike the reactor itself, the spent fuel pool does not have its own containment vessel, and any radioactive particles and gases can more easily spew into the environment if the uranium fuel begins to burn. In addition, the pool, which contains 130 tons of uranium fuel, is housed in a building that Japanese authorities say appears to have been damaged by fire or explosions.http://www.latimes.com/news/la-fg-japan-quake-wrapup-20110318,0,5665969.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fnews+%28L.A.+Times+-+Top+News%29&utm_content=My+Yahoo

[hater]

Japanese considering encasing the entire plant in concrete.

Damn mouse called it! mouse owning mofos up in this threads!

:lol

[Cry Havoc]

Japanese considering encasing the entire plant in concrete.

Damn mouse called it! mouse owning mofos up in this threads!

:lol

That's only possible to do if it's sufficiently cooled so that the fuel won't melt through the concrete. Mouse was simply regurgitating information from the Chernobyl disaster without knowing anything about it. Right now it's a last-ditch effort from them. Completely different scenarios.

[Agloco]

Japanese considering encasing the entire plant in concrete.

Damn mouse called it! mouse owning mofos up in this threads!

:lol

Saying that is kinda like saying your pot will get hot when you turn on the stove. Hardly ownage.

[hater]

Nuclear plant chief weeps as Japanese finally admit that radiation leak is serious enough to kill people

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html#ixzz1GyKSxekW

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/18/article-1367684-0B3BF1E700000578-880_472x491.jpg

[hater]

so they have until Sunday to restore power and control situation or else they will bury the plant.

Things looking good because French lowered nuclear level to a 5 today. :tu

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/idCATRE72A0SS20110318?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

[CosmicCowboy]

Might as well start burying the plant. Those pumps are probably gonna be fried from the seawater and more than likely the explosions have breached other piping.

[RandomGuy]

What we can learn from the Japan earthquake is that the forty-year old nuclear power plant design performed better than expected. And, like the Fukushima Daiichi plant is far advanced and a completely different design than Chernobyl. Today’s Generation III and IV reactors are literally generations ahead of their predecessors. In the US we have twenty-one applications for new reactors.


Finally, a cooler head prevails.

I don't doubt for a second that newer=safer

What I highly doubt is:
newer=economically viable

For that matter, NIMBY is not known to be all that subject to no matter what data on safety one might have.

Nuclear energy is, after all is said and done, simply one alternative of many when it comes to energy, and its main drawback, i.e. the consequences of catastrophic failure, is not something that will ever be fully remedied in my mind.

[RandomGuy]

Nuclear plant chief weeps as Japanese finally admit that radiation leak is serious enough to kill people

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Nuclear-plant-chief-weeps-Japanese-finally-admit-radiation-leak-kill-people.html#ixzz1GyKSxekW

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/18/article-1367684-0B3BF1E700000578-880_472x491.jpg


He said officials should have admitted earlier how serious the radiation leaks were.

I dont' think anybody really thought they were getting the full skinny on this.

As I noted much earlier, no official pronouncement when it comes to nuclear accidents ever proves to have been 100% forthcoming.

[LnGrrrR]

But, I thought WC and Yoni said it wouldn't be that bad? :lol

[Drachen]

I feel sorry for that guy, he is probably going to go kill himself.

[mouse]

Saying that is kinda like saying your pot will get hot when you turn on the stove. Hardly ownage.

Then why didn't you say it?
Agloco don't worry about picking the radiation scabs off your penis when your 50, you have to have one first.





Mouse was simply regurgitating information from the Chernobyl disaster without knowing anything about it.

Is there another nuclear accident I should have used to learn about something that has not happened? How can someone talk about a subject if there is no evidence it ever took place? You guys get to talk about Evolution, the Bible thumper's talk about Noah's ark with no real evidence but some books, and I can't talk about a subject that had actual video?

WTF is wrong with some of you? Instead of Cry Havoc just giving props were they may be due he continues to stay firm and join hands with the other lame mouse haters and ride the raft of ignorance down the river of stupidity.



Completely different scenarios.
.

So true neither one involved nuclear reactor damage or radiation leaks.

how does your foot taste?

[George Gervin's Afro]

I dont' think anybody really thought they were getting the full skinny on this.

As I noted much earlier, no official pronouncement when it comes to nuclear accidents ever proves to have been 100% forthcoming.

I blame Obama for the Japanese misinformation

sincerely,

WC, Yoni, Darrins

[MannyIsGod]

Cherynoble didn't really happen it was faked in a nasa studio.

[CosmicCowboy]

Cherynoble didn't really happen it was faked in a nasa studio.

:lmao

[baseline bum]

Cherynoble didn't really happen it was faked in a nasa studio.

:rollin

[TeyshaBlue]

Let me quess....nasa used thermite to produce the f/x?

[DarrinS]

Number of dead from ratiation: 0

Number of dead from water: 10,000+

[mouse]

Cherynoble didn't really happen it was faked in a nasa studio.

You have proof?

[MannyIsGod]

Did did you read the Chernobyl Comission Report? Everyone knows reactors don't just fall apart by themselves.

Have you ever actually seen Chernobyl with your own eyes, Mouse?

[MannyIsGod]

Number of dead from ratiation: 0

Number of dead from water: 10,000+

Also, the amount of radiation let loose so far would not fill the Superdome.

[CosmicCowboy]

Also, the amount of radiation let loose so far would not fill the Superdome.

:lmao

Damn Manny...you are on a roll today...

[nkdlunch]

Also, the amount of radiation let loose so far would not fill the Superdome.

you have a link for this?

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

Damn Manny...you are on a roll today...

I had a balanced breakfast and these motherfuckers provide endless stupid content to be exploited. Its a great world.

[nkdlunch]

since small amounts of radiation are reaching West Coast. I think the amount of radiation spread from Japan must be huge.

And no, it won't kill anyone here. But I don't understand why ppl claim that to be a good thing. The point is these quantities of radiation released are the biggest since Chernobyl. That is huge. Nobody thought this could be possible in this day and age.

[nkdlunch]

Number of dead from ratiation: 0

Number of dead from water: 10,000+

•More than 125 elderly Japanese patients, many comatose, were abandoned by medical staff at a hospital six miles from the damaged Fukushima nuclear plant, The Guardian reported. At least 14 subsequently died.

•At least 11 men and women perished inside a retirement home in Kesennuma, where for six days they faced freezing temperatures, according to the Guardian.

•Fourteen senior citizens died after being moved to a temporary shelter in a school gym because their hospital was in the evacuation zone near the damaged Fukushima nuclear power plant, The Associated Press reported.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42150705/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

[MannyIsGod]

since small amounts of radiation are reaching West Coast. I think the amount of radiation spread from Japan must be huge.

And no, it won't kill anyone here. But I don't understand why ppl claim that to be a good thing. The point is these quantities of radiation released are the biggest since Chernobyl. That is huge. Nobody thought this could be possible in this day and age.

Its not that huge. The amounts reaching us here are extremely low. This is what I mean about people not understanding these figures very well at all. I'm fairly surprised all the particle weren't precipitated over the pacific because they never even reached a large height but you don't need a huge release to detect it elsewhere given the proper conditions.

[nkdlunch]

Its not that huge. The amounts reaching us here are extremely low. This is what I mean about people not understanding these figures very well at all. I'm fairly surprised all the particle weren't precipitated over the pacific because they never even reached a large height but you don't need a huge release to detect it elsewhere given the proper conditions.

:rolleyes

tell me a previous man-made event that is not Chernobyl or a nuclear bomb that released more radiation.

[TeyshaBlue]

http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png

[RandomGuy]

Also, the amount of radiation let loose so far would not fill the Superdome.

(self-referencial humor for insiders)

For the uninitiated,

"So far there isn't enough oil leaking from the Deepwater Horizon to fill the Superdome" was given as a reason not to be concerned by DarrinS I think (Wild Cobra?).

[RandomGuy]

•More than 125 elderly Japanese patients, many comatose, were abandoned by medical staff at a hospital six miles from the damaged Fukushima nuclear plant, The Guardian reported. At least 14 subsequently died.

•At least 11 men and women perished inside a retirement home in Kesennuma, where for six days they faced freezing temperatures, according to the Guardian.

•Fourteen senior citizens died after being moved to a temporary shelter in a school gym because their hospital was in the evacuation zone near the damaged Fukushima nuclear power plant, The Associated Press reported.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42150705/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

None of those deaths was attributed to radiation, to my knowledge.

Most of them, as noted died from hypothermia or similar.

It takes very little exposure or neglect to kill your average nursing home resident, sadly.

[nkdlunch]

None of those deaths was attributed to radiation, to my knowledge.

Most of them, as noted died from hypothermia or similar.

It takes very little exposure or neglect to kill your average nursing home resident, sadly.

had there been no radiation. Would they have been abandoned?

[MannyIsGod]

:rolleyes

tell me a previous man-made event that is not Chernobyl or a nuclear bomb that released more radiation.

I'll give you a hint. The stuff that has happened before in Japan released more to date than this and I'm not talking about Hiroshima or Nagasaki. This has the potential to be far worse but it is so far not.

Three Mile Island is another.

But all of these radiation levels pale in comparison to the amount of radioactive material in the air during the time when the US and Russia were setting off bombs on a regular basis for "tests".

[MannyIsGod]

Your cellphone likely raises background radiation more than the 1% rise on the west coast right now.

[MannyIsGod]

Now, at least one CTBTO member state, Austria, intends to make some of the data public in the form of summary reports and forecasts of global radiation spread.



Nature has also learned that initial CTBTO data suggest that a large meltdown at the Fukushima power plant has not yet occurred, although that assessment may change as more data flow in during the coming days. Lars-Erik De Geer, research director of the Swedish Defence Research Institute in Stockholm, which has access to the CTBTO data and uses it to provide the foreign ministry and other Swedish government departments with analyses, says that the data show high amounts of volatile radioactive isotopes, such as iodine and caesium, as well the noble gas xenon. But so far, the data show no high levels of the less volatile elements such as zirconium and barium that would signal that a large meltdown had taken place -- elements that were released during the 1986 reactor explosion in Chernobyl in the Ukraine.



Rather, the data sit well, he says, with a scenario wherein the main release of radioactivity has come from the release of excess pressure in the containment vessels of affected reactors, and the subsequent explosion of the evacuated hydrogen-laden steam within the reactor buildings. The radioactive plume will spread around the hemisphere within weeks, he predicts, but the levels of radioactivity outside Japan will not be dangerous. The levels in Japan itself, outside the immediate vicinity of the Fukushima power plant, "wouldn't scare me", he adds.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=radiation-data-from-japanese-d

[mouse]

Your cellphone likely raises background radiation more than the 1% rise on the west coast right now.

quote for future foot in mouth post.

[RandomGuy]

had there been no radiation. Would they have been abandoned?

Better question:

Had there been no evacuation orders would they have been abandoned?

[TeyshaBlue]

quote for future foot in mouth post.

This one will serve the purpose better.

[mouse]

But all of these radiation levels pale in comparison to the amount of radioactive material in the air during the time when the US and Russia were setting off bombs on a regular basis for "tests".

How anyone can compare radiation form an Atom bomb to highly radioactive spent fuel rods is amazing.

Atom Bomb radiation.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/atom-bomb-radiation.jpg

http://www.utc.edu/Research/AsiaProgram/teaching/images/s4p7i.png


Radiation leaking from damaged reactor.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/412-17-nuclear-test-victim.jpg

http://www.planetthoughts.org/userfiles/image/2009/Apr/Chernobyl-child.jpg


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/reactor-leak.jpg


The only way Manny could have a "balanced breakfast" was if it included Lithium.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao @ you using a 4chan map thats fake.

[MannyIsGod]

Mouse you're more at risk from developing lung cancer from all the weed you've smoked than any radiation out there yet that shit doesn't stop you does it?

[DarrinS]

Also, the amount of radiation let loose so far would not fill the Superdome.


Everything needs perspective. The Deepwater Horizon spill almost seems like a non-event based on what nature can do.

[mouse]

Mouse you're more at risk from developing lung cancer from all the weed you've smoked than any radiation out there yet that shit doesn't stop you does it?

Lets find out, I spark up a joint you go to Japan and eat some girls pussy, lets see who dies first.



Now your comparing smoking a plant to radiation leaking from a damaged nuclear reactor?


How many Potheads from the 70s are still alive compared to people who lived in a 5 mile radius of Chernobyl?

I know you think by living in Detroit your immune to radiation and you may be right. But please if your going to use Google to educate yourself on radiation effects at least do it while sober.

[Winehole23]

What a tacky thing to say, D. You love the attention, don't you?

[DarrinS]

Lets find out, I spark up a joint you go to Japan and eat some girls pussy, lets see who dies first.



wow

[Winehole23]

( you think that little *almost* covers your ass? you might have noticed that your broader patterns of posting here follow you around some. )

[Wild Cobra]

Cherynoble didn't really happen it was faked in a nasa studio.
Please don't get Mouse started.

[Wild Cobra]

Your cellphone likely raises background radiation more than the 1% rise on the west coast right now.
Radiation type makes a difference.

[MannyIsGod]

Everything needs perspective. The Deepwater Horizon spill almost seems like a non-event based on what nature can do.

:lol Non event huh? It seems like a non event because your attention span is that of a toddlers.

[MannyIsGod]

Lets find out, I spark up a joint you go to Japan and eat some girls pussy, lets see who dies first.



Now your comparing smoking a plant to radiation leaking from a damaged nuclear reactor?


How many Potheads from the 70s are still alive compared to people who lived in a 5 mile radius of Chernobyl?

I know you think by living in Detroit your immune to radiation and you may be right. But please if your going to use Google to educate yourself on radiation effects at least do it while sober.

All those beers you have are far more toxic for your liver than the radiation in the United States right now. Doesn't seem to phase you.

[mouse]

What a tacky thing to say, D. You love the attention, don't you?

http://images9.cpcache.com/product/460855259v4_480x480_Front.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Everything needs perspective. The Deepwater Horizon spill almost seems like a non-event based on what nature can do.

and how many natural events have spilled thousands of barrels of oil per minute into the sea at one point for months again?

[mouse]

All those beers you have are far more toxic for your liver than the radiation in the United States right now. Doesn't seem to phase you.

Is this what the topic is about, My liver, my lungs? I thought it was about a "meltdown"

You want to talk about a persons drinking make another topic and don't forget to add pics.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/mannys-liver.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/mannys-liverjpg2.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/mannys-liverjpg3.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/mannys-liverjpg4.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/mannys-liverjpg5.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

[RandomGuy]

mouse is on a tear...

:lol

[RandomGuy]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/mannys-liverjpg5.jpg

Also, the amount of pina coladas manny drank so far would not fill the Superdome.










(note: pina coladas are generally not served with salt on the rim)

(I am sure it was a pre-placed thermite margarita, photoshopped in by experts at NASA)

[RandomGuy]

Kmv3WlKa6U8

Speaking of gay...

[RandomGuy]

Speaking of buzzed:

http://www.viddler.com/explore/failblog/videos/1974/

(actually has some basketball footage)

[mouse]

(note: pina coladas are generally not served with salt on the rim)


I am so glad to not know that.

[LnGrrrR]

Number of dead from ratiation: 0

Number of dead from water: 10,000+

So what you're saying is that everyone should start absorbing radiation in stead of drinking water? Thanks!

[Agloco]

Is this what the topic is about, My liver, my lungs? I thought it was about a "meltdown"



The problem with radiation is not what the wall mart meters detect on your shoes it's the shit in your lungs that gets past the radio shack devices that will give you Cancer.

You people just don't get it. Maybe 30 years from now when they are removing one of your testicles you will.

Apparently so mouse........

Accordingly to you they're intimately linked.

[DarrinS]

So what you're saying is that everyone should start absorbing radiation in stead of drinking water? Thanks!


No, I'm saying it's obscene to be obsessing about this nuclear plant when thousands of dead bodies at a time are washing ashore and thousands more are missing, probably buried under mountains of debris.

[Agloco]

I don't doubt for a second that newer=safer

What I highly doubt is:
newer=economically viable

For that matter, NIMBY is not known to be all that subject to no matter what data on safety one might have.

Nuclear energy is, after all is said and done, simply one alternative of many when it comes to energy, and its main drawback, i.e. the consequences of catastrophic failure, is not something that will ever be fully remedied in my mind.


You make a good argument here. Unfortunately I'm not versed enough about the economics of nuclear power to make a good counter argument so I'll have to leave it alone. I am interested in the numbers though.

The reactors of tomorrow will continue a trend of being much safer than those of today. This will come about primarily as a result of the development of less toxic fuels, better disposal methods and more sophisticated disposal methods. Know that, I have a hard time simply walking away from this technology all together.

How long will it take to implement those technologies, and how much risk we assume in the meantime is something that will continue to be a contentious point IMO.

[LnGrrrR]

No, I'm saying it's obscene to be obsessing about this nuclear plant when thousands of dead bodies at a time are washing ashore and thousands more are missing, probably buried under mountains of debris.

Uhmm who shouldn't care about this? Us? The Japanese people?

A lot of people died; it's tragic. But they don't have time to grieve, enough time for that AFTER they solve this meltdown problem.

That's what people do Darrin. They do what needs to be done, and think about it after.

[Agloco]

No, I'm saying it's obscene to be obsessing about this nuclear plant when thousands of dead bodies at a time are washing ashore and thousands more are missing, probably buried under mountains of debris.

It's pretty clear from this statement that you don't understand the consequences of a full meltdown.

[LnGrrrR]

And also, it's not like everyone in Japan is working on the reactor. They do have people going on searches for the missing.

But the tsunami/quake is over. What's done is done. The meltdown, that's something the Japanese can do something about.

[DarrinS]

It's pretty clear from this statement that you don't understand the consequences of a full meltdown.

Has that happened?

[LnGrrrR]

Has that happened?

Not yet, due to the actions of the workers. But if they had not worried about it, good chance it might have.

[ChumpDumper]

Has that happened?Yes, your not understanding has happened.

[DarrinS]

Not yet, due to the actions of the workers. But if they had not worried about it, good chance it might have.


Of course they should be worried about it. I'm just saying that the media attention on the nuclear part of this trajedy is disproportionate.

[LnGrrrR]

Of course they should be worried about it. I'm just saying that the media attention on the nuclear part of this trajedy is disproportionate.

Why?

[MannyIsGod]

Of course they should be worried about it. I'm just saying that the media attention on the nuclear part of this trajedy is disproportionate.

According to you? You would rather they be showing the destruction over and over? That happened. This is happening. Its not hard to see whats going to get coverage.

[DarrinS]

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/249907/3/Local-expert-says-Japan-concerns-overblown

[LnGrrrR]

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/249907/3/Local-expert-says-Japan-concerns-overblown

So one expert thinks it might not be bad, and you're willing to take his word for it? Not only that, but think that the media should take his word for it too?

What about the opinions of other experts? Do those not matter?

[LnGrrrR]

Dr. Henry Royal is a professor of radiation at Washington University. He studied the after-effects of radiation in the Chernobyl disaster. He says even in that case, the only significant radiation exposure was to those employees and workers at the plant. He says even in the closest town to the plant, the radiation levels were equal to what you would experience by having 5 CT scans. And this case in Japan, it's significantly less.

He curiously fails to mention the thousands who received ill effects after drinking/eating local food and water that was contaminated. And the heightened incidence rate of cancer in that area.

[LnGrrrR]

Note: I'm not saying the guy is a quack, but it's strange that he left that part out.

[Agloco]

Dr. Henry Royal is a professor of radiation at Washington University. He studied the after-effects of radiation in the Chernobyl disaster. He says even in that case, the only significant radiation exposure was to those employees and workers at the plant. He says even in the closest town to the plant, the radiation levels were equal to what you would experience by having 5 CT scans. And this case in Japan, it's significantly less.



He curiously fails to mention the thousands who received ill effects after drinking/eating local food and water that was contaminated. And the heightened incidence rate of cancer in that area.



Note: I'm not saying the guy is a quack, but it's strange that he left that part out.

Significant in this context means those people who experienced a dose sufficient to cause either hematopoietic or gastrointestinal syndromes. More generally, he's referring to the onset of non-stochastic syndromes early on in the crisis which proved to be fatal.

Yes, I know the term "significant" can have very different meanings and one might think that it should include cases of foodborne radiation sickness and induced cancers. I'm just clarifying how he used the term in his paper.

This is simply a case of what cutoff you use to define the term "significant".

[Agloco]

It's pretty clear from this statement that you don't understand the consequences of a full meltdown.


Has that happened?

Doesn't really need to in order to be newsworthy. Millions more stand a good chance of being affected for generations to come due to the nuclear crisis. that should prompt a lot of discussion and coverage IMO.

[LnGrrrR]

Significant in this context means those people who experienced a dose sufficient to cause either hematopoietic or gastrointestinal syndromes. More generally, he's referring to the onset of non-stochastic syndromes early on in the crisis which proved to be fatal.

Yes, I know the term "significant" can have very different meanings and one might think that it should include cases of foodborne radiation sickness and induced cancers. I'm just clarifying how he used the term in his paper.

This is simply a case of what cutoff you use to define the term "significant".

I assumed it might be something along those lines. While deaths due purely to radiation might be low, that doesn't mean that everything is hunky-dory.

[nkdlunch]

I'll give you a hint. The stuff that has happened before in Japan released more to date than this and I'm not talking about Hiroshima or Nagasaki. This has the potential to be far worse but it is so far not.

Three Mile Island is another.

But all of these radiation levels pale in comparison to the amount of radioactive material in the air during the time when the US and Russia were setting off bombs on a regular basis for "tests".

yes, radiation from those "tests" made it's way to the food supply and tap water 100 miles away :rolleyes

[nkdlunch]

Better question:

Had there been no evacuation orders would they have been abandoned?

Even better question:

Had there been no radiation would there have been evacuation orders?

[MannyIsGod]

Even better question:

Had there been no radiation would there have been evacuation orders?

Of course. Do you only close the barn door when the horse is already loose?

[MannyIsGod]

yes, radiation from those "tests" made it's way to the food supply and tap water 100 miles away :rolleyes

:lmao

It made it further, actually. Don't be such a fucking moron.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Bravo_Fallout.jpg/763px-Bravo_Fallout.jpg

[RandomGuy]

yes, radiation from those "tests" made it's way to the food supply and tap water 100 miles away :rolleyes

manny was probably referring to the above ground tests, and yes that would throw radiation for a pretty long distance.

(edit after noticing the post before this)

I guess he was.

[velik_m]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/radiation.png

http://blog.xkcd.com/2011/03/19/radiation-chart/

[MannyIsGod]

Cool chart!

[nkdlunch]

Of course. Do you only close the barn door when the horse is already loose?

re-read the articles posted and come back.

[nkdlunch]

:lmao

It made it further, actually. Don't be such a fucking moron.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Bravo_Fallout.jpg/763px-Bravo_Fallout.jpg

LOL comparing Bikini island food production to Japans

LOL wikipedia hand drawn chart

[MannyIsGod]

Jesus Christ the stupid is strong with people lately. Must be all the radiation.

[Agloco]

Radiation Dose Chart

"This is a chart of the ionizing radiation dose a person can absorb from various sources. The unit for absorbed dose is "sievert"(Sv), and measures the effect a dose of radiation will have on the cells of the body....."


Grrr.....


It raises the hair on my neck when colleagues don't get these concepts straight. Then we wonder why the public is so confused about these topics....

For the record, the units for radiation absorbed dose are rads or gray (Gy).

Sieverts or rem (roentgen equivalent in man) refers to radiation exposure or equivalent dose.

Mathematically, the relationships in this chart are accurate assuming one is considering only the dose from gammas, x-rays or betas (ie 1Gy = 1Sv and 1 rad = 1 rem). Conceptually they are quite different however. Exposure refers to the amount of incident radiation on an object and gives an approximation of biologic effect. Dose refers to the amount of that radiation which is absorbed and producing ionizations (measured in joules per kilogram). They depend on various factors such as the type of incoming radiation (gammas, alphas, beta, neutrons, protons, etc. ), density, and effective atomic number of the substance (Z) among others. So one could think of sieverts as the dose of a given type of radiation (as measured in Gy) that has the same biologic effect on a human as 1Gy of x-rays or gammas.

Lazy scientists don't help the situation at all.

[Typhoon]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1367684/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-Fukushima-nulear-plant-radiation-leak-kill-people.html

The moment nuclear plant chief WEPT as Japanese finally admit that radiation leak is serious enough to kill people

The boss of the company behind the devastated Japanese nuclear reactor today broke down in tears - as his country finally acknowledged the radiation spewing from the over-heating reactors and fuel rods was enough to kill some citizens.

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency admitted that the disaster was a level 5, which is classified as a crisis causing 'several radiation deaths' by the UN International Atomic Energy.

Officials said the rating was raised after they realised the full extent of the radiation leaking from the plant. They also said that 3 per cent of the fuel in three of the reactors at the Fukushima plant had been severely damaged, suggesting those reactor cores have partially melted down.

After Tokyo Electric Power Company Managing Director Akio Komiri cried as he left a conference to brief journalists on the situation at Fukushima, a senior Japanese minister also admitted that the country was overwhelmed by the scale of the tsunami and nuclear crisis.

He said officials should have admitted earlier how serious the radiation leaks were.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said: 'The unprecedented scale of the earthquake and tsunami that struck Japan, frankly speaking, were among many things that happened that had not been anticipated under our disaster management contingency plans.

'In hindsight, we could have moved a little quicker in assessing the situation and coordinating all that information and provided it faster.'

Nuclear experts have been saying for days that Japan was underplaying the crisis' severity.

It is now officially on a par with the Three Mile Island accident in Pennsylvania in 1979. Only the explosion at Chernobyl in 1986 has topped the scale.

Deputy director general of the NISA, Hideohiko Nishiyama, also admitted that they do not know if the reactors are coming under control.

He said: 'With the water-spraying operations, we are fighting a fire we cannot see. That fire is not spreading, but we cannot say yet that it is under control.'

But prime minister Naoto Kan insisted that his country would overcome the catastrophe

'We will rebuild Japan from scratch,' he said in a televised speech: 'In our history, this small island nation has made miraculous economic growth thanks to the efforts of all Japanese citizens. That is how Japan was built.'

It comes after pictures emerged showing overheating fuel rods exposed to the elements through a huge hole in the wall of a reactor building at the destroyed Fukushima nuclear plant.

[Cry Havoc]

http://cnn.com/video/?/video/crime/2011/03/21/ng.japan.radiation.hln

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[baseline bum]

Haha... American news is such shit.

[ElNono]

http://www.ripten.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/falloutheader.jpg

[DarrinS]

9000+ dead and 13000 still missing from earthquake + tsunami.

Number of dead from nuclear crisis: ?

[Cry Havoc]

9000+ dead and 13000 still missing from earthquake + tsunami.

Number of dead from nuclear crisis: ?

Cost of nuclear crisis in the USSR following Chernobyl:

$200,000,000,000 and up to 200,000 dead because they didn't take proper safety precautions to make sure that the core didn't meltdown.

So, yeah, a nuclear crisis is not something you want to fuck around with. A body already drowned by a tsunami or crushed by an earthquake doesn't mind waiting when there are living people depending on you to mitigate a third potential disaster.

What about this is not clear to you, DarrinS?

[DarrinS]

Cost of nuclear crisis in the USSR following Chernobyl:

$200,000,000,000 and up to 200,000 dead because they didn't take proper safety precautions to make sure that the core didn't meltdown.




Where did you get that 200,000 figure from? Greenpeace?


Oh, by the way, this is nothing even remotely close to Chernobyl. What part of that don't YOU understand?

[ChumpDumper]

Why is Darrin complaining that not enough people have died from these ongoing nuclear situations?

[Cry Havoc]

Where did you get that 200,000 figure from? Greenpeace?


Oh, by the way, this is nothing even remotely close to Chernobyl. What part of that don't YOU understand?

Ah, so because it's not a level 7 incident, it should be ignored. Faultless logic.

[Wild Cobra]

Grrr.....


It raises the hair on my neck when colleagues don't get these concepts straight. Then we wonder why the public is so confused about these topics....

----

Lazy scientists don't help the situation at all.
Agreed. I think at some point earlier I said the type of radiation matters.

[Yonivore]

C'mon people, get a freakin' grip on the magnitude of this incident...

Why Fukushima made me stop worrying and love nuclear power (http://www.mg.co.za/article/2011-03-22-why-fukushima-made-me-stop-worrying-and-love-nuclear-power)


You will not be surprised to hear that the events in Japan have changed my view of nuclear power. You will be surprised to hear how they have changed it. As a result of the disaster at Fukushima, I am no longer nuclear-neutral. I now support the technology.

A crappy old plant with inadequate safety features was hit by a monster earthquake and a vast tsunami. The electricity supply failed, knocking out the cooling system. The reactors began to explode and melt down. The disaster exposed a familiar legacy of poor design and corner-cutting. Yet, as far as we know, no one has yet received a lethal dose of radiation.
There's an old lefty with whom I agree. Not only is Fukushima not a disaster, I think the incident there has proven nuclear power's safety measures, quite nicely.

Here's an interesting visual that maybe, just maybe, some of you can use to stop the quivers:


http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/radiation.png

[DarrinS]

C'mon people, get a freakin' grip on the magnitude of this incident...

Why Fukushima made me stop worrying and love nuclear power (http://www.mg.co.za/article/2011-03-22-why-fukushima-made-me-stop-worrying-and-love-nuclear-power)




Great article.





Some greens have wildly exaggerated the dangers of radioactive pollution. For a clearer view, look at the graphic published by xkcd.com. It shows that the average total dose from the Three Mile Island disaster for someone living within 10 miles of the plant was one 625th of the maximum yearly amount permitted for US radiation workers. This, in turn, is half of the lowest one-year dose clearly linked to an increased cancer risk, which, in its turn, is one 80th of an invariably fatal exposure. I'm not proposing complacency here. I am proposing perspective.




Totally agree.

[LnGrrrR]

The only problem with that chart is the one that they explicitly mention above it; it doesn't take into account the time taken to absorb the dose.

[ChumpDumper]

South Africa?

[DarrinS]

Cool crash test video.



25vlt7swhCM

[mouse]

Japan Radiation Plume heading for North America. Daily Projections and Trajectories indicate March 23rd as Fallout Day!

A group of atmospheric scientists from the University of Maryland are currently using a very sophisticated tool to help them examine atmospheric patterns originating from Japan. They have been using the tool for quite some time, enabling them to make simplified projected models of atmospheric transportation and trajectory system on daily basis. What have they discovered from their projections and trajectories? Read on to find out.

Japan Radiation Plume heading for North America. Daily Projections and Trajectories indicate March 23rd as Nuclear Fallout Day

The tool they were using was originally developed by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). It is called HYSPLIT or better known as the Hybrid Single Particle Lagrangian Integrated Trajectory Model. I won’t go into the technical details but you can follow the link that I have provided earlier to get a better picture on the methods used to create those atmospheric transportation projection and trajectory models.

I’m more interested in their latest projection data. According to their latest data, Japan radiation plume suspended somewhere in the 3-km altitude will reach North America on March 23rd! Radiation plumes suspended in the 3.5 to 5-km altitudes will hit North America the next day! Oh boy! You can get more information from the following screenshot. Take a look.


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/MAllen-Radiataion.jpg

[in2deep]

so we are fucked?

[CosmicCowboy]

Mouse, just take your potassium iodine and stay inside with the windows/doors taped shut.

You'll be fine.

[mouse]

Mouse, just take your potassium iodine and stay inside with the windows/doors taped shut.

You'll be fine.

For the next 3-7 months? That is how long it could take to stop the flow of radioactive material escaping the damaged plant.


And what about the ground and water, the food source will be contaminated also. Maybe not with the levels that can get Manny excited but it will be enough to have cancer show up years ahead.

So enjoy that glass of Orange juice with your Avocado salad.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/1951901343_362686ab83.jpg

[DarrinS]

For the next 3-7 months? That is how long it could take to stop the flow of radioactive material escaping the damaged plant.


And what about the ground and water, the food source will be contaminated also. Maybe not with the levels that can get Manny excited but it will be enough to have cancer show up years ahead.

So enjoy that glass of Orange juice with your Avocado salad.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2409/1951901343_362686ab83.jpg



You may want to stay out of the sun.

[mouse]

You may want to stay out of the sun.


I hope you do also.

http://stopthesun.com/blog/wp-content/uploads//skin-cancer.jpg

[Agloco]

Japan Radiation Plume heading for North America. Daily Projections and Trajectories indicate March 23rd as Fallout Day!

A group of atmospheric scientists from the University of Maryland are currently using a very sophisticated tool to help them examine atmospheric patterns originating from Japan. They have been using the tool for quite some time, enabling them to make simplified projected models of atmospheric transportation and trajectory system on daily basis. What have they discovered from their projections and trajectories? Read on to find out.

Japan Radiation Plume heading for North America. Daily Projections and Trajectories indicate March 23rd as Nuclear Fallout Day

The tool they were using was originally developed by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA). It is called HYSPLIT or better known as the Hybrid Single Particle Lagrangian Integrated Trajectory Model. I won’t go into the technical details but you can follow the link that I have provided earlier to get a better picture on the methods used to create those atmospheric transportation projection and trajectory models.

I’m more interested in their latest projection data. According to their latest data, Japan radiation plume suspended somewhere in the 3-km altitude will reach North America on March 23rd! Radiation plumes suspended in the 3.5 to 5-km altitudes will hit North America the next day! Oh boy! You can get more information from the following screenshot. Take a look.


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/MAllen-Radiataion.jpg

:sleep

[Wild Cobra]

Mouse, just take your potassium iodine and stay inside with the windows/doors taped shut.

You'll be fine.
I think he needs prozac instead.

[mouse]

Is this what they call "kill the messenger"?

You guys use cheap jokes and semi witty comebacks and attack me instead of the topic at hand.

And i thought the vato's at MIT were dense.

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001851864376#!/MITnews

[RashoFan]

Hey Mouse, sorry to crash this thread....hit me up via pm...

[ChumpDumper]

Tokyo's water supply is now too radioactive for infants to drink.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/world/asia/24japan.html

No mention on the number of Superdomes it would fill.

[RashoFan]

Tokyo's water supply is now too radioactive for infants to drink.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/world/asia/24japan.html

No mention on the number of Superdomes it would fill.

Just saw the CBS news in regards to that, especially affects children with a malfunctioning thyroid.

[mouse]

Hey Mouse, sorry to crash this thread....hit me up via pm...

Post a pic of your rack first.

:wakeup

[RashoFan]

Post a pic of your rack first.

:wakeup

http://wzus1.ask.com/r?t=a&d=us&s=a&c=p&ti=1&ai=30752&l=dis&o=15527&sv=0a5c423d&ip=4b01cb5c&wz_cu=0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fiweb.cooking.com%2Fimages%2Fproduct s%2Fenlarge%2F650796e.jpg

[mouse]

Your one cute dish!

It's ok I already waxed my carrot to an earlier photo of you.


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/RTM-322/titmove.gif

[LnGrrrR]

Tokyo's water supply is now too radioactive for infants to drink.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/world/asia/24japan.html

No mention on the number of Superdomes it would fill.

But thousands have died from the quakenami, so I don't see why they're reporting on this.

[Parker2112]

Tokyo's water supply is now too radioactive for infants to drink.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/world/asia/24japan.html

No mention on the number of Superdomes it would fill.

like you ever gave a shit about the water supply being infant safe before...what a hypocritical dick...

[RashoFan]

Your one cute dish!

It's ok I already waxed my carrot to an earlier photo of you.


http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/RTM-322/titmove.gif

Niiiiiccccceee, glad I could be the subject of your entertainment..

[ChumpDumper]

like you ever gave a shit about the water supply being infant safe before...what a hypocritical dick...:lmao

radioactivity <> fluoride

And you never provided any rates of infant crippling fluorosis in Austin that you're always crying about.

Until then, I'm not worried about it. Hell, I'm gonna bathe in it....

[symple19]

Dangerous breach suspected at Japanese nuke plant

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_JAPAN_EARTHQUAKE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-03-25-05-25-49

[hater]

I'm sure the radioactive experts like Manny, Yonni and Darin will find a way to downplay this news.

:rolleyes

Something along the lines of how the Bikini Island's water supplies were also harmful to the 23 souls living there back in those test days.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

I'm sure you'll post how we're all going to die here in the United States.
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e2014e60151294970c-800wi

[hater]

that was mouse not me

[mouse]

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/manny-hates-chidren.jpg

[hater]

Off the coast of Japan water found 1,250 times above legal radioactive limits

Nuclear plant has puddles of water 10,000 times above legal radioactive limits

[Wild Cobra]

Off the coast of Japan water found 1,250 times above legal radioactive limits

Nuclear plant has puddles of water 10,000 times above legal radioactive limits
Your point? Are you saying this isn't to be expected?