Federally mandated LED lightbulbs to cost $50 each

[TeyshaBlue]

Not really. I love my Keurig... recommendations:

http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/Staples/s0393025_sc7?$sku$http://cache-images.pronto.com/thumb2.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.pronto.com%2Fim ages%2Fproduction%2Fproducts%2F13%2F86%2Fimagcafd2 c6acb3587924d402c788719-1289158734_160x160.jpg&wmax=180&hmax=180&quality=80&bgcol=FFFFFF

I used to work at a company that sourced Keurig stations for our coffee. I think we used Green Mountain coffees. Stuff was surprisingly good....and it was free to boot!

The free part might have made it taste better.:p:

[Wild Cobra]

I used to work at a company that sourced Keurig stations for our coffee. I think we used Green Mountain coffees. Stuff was surprisingly good....and it was free to boot!

The free part might have made it taste better.:p:
I work in the industrial section of Portland that's near the Portland Airport. There is a Coffee factory that roasts and grinds coffee. When the winds blow right... What a pleasant smell!

[Winehole23]

Not really. I love my Keurig... recommendations:

http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/Staples/s0393025_sc7?$sku$http://cache-images.pronto.com/thumb2.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.pronto.com%2Fim ages%2Fproduction%2Fproducts%2F13%2F86%2Fimagcafd2 c6acb3587924d402c788719-1289158734_160x160.jpg&wmax=180&hmax=180&quality=80&bgcol=FFFFFFTo each his own. Keurig is great for work: no mess, no waste, super fast and tastes surprisingly good for prepackaged.


(You jes caint beat fresh ground coffee tho)

[MannyIsGod]

I love coffee, but more so I love the smell of roasted beans while they are being ground. Its so damn amazing.

[ElNono]

(You jes caint beat fresh ground coffee tho)

I am somewhat of a coffee lover/aficionado. To me, coffee perfection is a double-shot espresso or professionally made cappuccino. It has to be really hot and it has to be really bold. Making either of those at home is really complicated unless you have both ample time to spare and a good chunk of change for a near-pro/pro expresso maker.

The Keurig does provide with both the heat and the boldness that it's difficult to replicate on your standard brewer (especially the heat control). So it's kind of halfway there. The brewing is obviously not as pressurized as a real espresso machine (noticeable), and there's obviously no milk foaming device, so cappuccino is out of the question. When I want the real deal, I normally have to head out to Starbucks and the like.

Now, if you want to try something different, and you're near San Francisco, CA or Brooklyn, NY head out to Blue Bottle Coffee (http://www.bluebottlecoffee.net/). The coffee is good, but the devices they use to drip the coffee are a must see.

[TeyshaBlue]

I work in the industrial section of Portland that's near the Portland Airport. There is a Coffee factory that roasts and grinds coffee. When the winds blow right... What a pleasant smell!

About 6 blocks away from the main campus where I attended college was the DeCoty Coffee Company. Back then, they supplied alot of mediocre coffee to convenience stores and institutions...including the college cafes and snackbars. When they were roasting, the smell would wrap around the campus like a scarf. It was pretty amazing....but the coffee just wasn't that great. Nowdays, they've gotten into the premium game a bit, I've noticed. Might have to give them a spin after I run through the Indonesian coffee I just ordered. I see DeCoty offers it as well. Hmmm...

http://www.decoty.com/catalogItems/view/4dbb19be-ddcc-4ee5-a57b-04e6ac100b37

[TeyshaBlue]

I am somewhat of a coffee lover/aficionado. To me, coffee perfection is a double-shot espresso or professionally made cappuccino. It has to be really hot and it has to be really bold. Making either of those at home is really complicated unless you have both ample time to spare and a good chunk of change for a near-pro/pro expresso maker.

The Keurig does provide with both the heat and the boldness that it's difficult to replicate on your standard brewer (especially the heat control). So it's kind of halfway there. The brewing is obviously not as pressurized as a real espresso machine (noticeable), and there's obviously no milk foaming device, so cappuccino is out of the question. When I want the real deal, I normally have to head out to Starbucks and the like.

Now, if you want to try something different, and you're near San Francisco, CA or Brooklyn, NY head out to Blue Bottle Coffee (http://www.bluebottlecoffee.net/). The coffee is good, but the devices they use to drip the coffee are a must see.

Cappuccino = girly coffee.:ihit

[MannyIsGod]

LOL someone needs to swing at that softball about being a coffee lover/afficinado and heading out to Starbucks.

[ElNono]

Cappuccino = girly coffee.:ihit

:lol

It's just a double-espresso with foamy milk... normally too strong for the ladies...

[coyotes_geek]

Took an Alaskan cruise a couple years ago and had a Keurig in our suite. Loved that thing. Nothing beat starting out my mornings by firing up the Keurig and enjoying a hot cup out on the balcony with the Alaskan scenery right there in front of you.

[TeyshaBlue]

LOL someone needs to swing at that softball about being a coffee lover/afficinado and heading out to Starbucks.

Manny with the throwdown!:lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Took an Alaskan cruise a couple years ago and had a Keurig in our suite. Loved that thing. Nothing beat starting out my mornings by firing up the Keurig and enjoying a hot cup out on the balcony with the Alaskan scenery right there in front of you.

GFY:depressed

[ElNono]

LOL someone needs to swing at that softball about being a coffee lover/afficinado and heading out to Starbucks.

What's wrong about it?
Out of the chains you can purchase ready-made gourmet coffee, Starbucks is at the top of the list, IMO.

[TeyshaBlue]

What's wrong about it?
Out of the chains you can purchase ready-made girly coffee, Starbucks is at the top of the list, IMO.

fify:p:

[MannyIsGod]

As someone who has a Starbucks card in their wallet and gets far too much coffee there I have to say they have burned my god damn shit too much for me to give them too much credit. There's a Starbucks right behind where I work and they are on the ball but if I go elsewhere its almost always fucked.

Mostly I was just yanking your chain though. :)

[MannyIsGod]

Took an Alaskan cruise a couple years ago and had a Keurig in our suite. Loved that thing. Nothing beat starting out my mornings by firing up the Keurig and enjoying a hot cup out on the balcony with the Alaskan scenery right there in front of you.

Oh I can beat it:


starting out my mornings by firing up the Keurig and enjoying a hot cup out on the balcony with the Alaskan scenery right there in front of you while getting a blowjob.

[TeyshaBlue]

GFY too, Manny.:depressed:depressed

[coyotes_geek]

GFY:depressed

:lmao

[coyotes_geek]

Oh I can beat it:

Yep. You win. :p:

[TeyshaBlue]

:lmao

http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/really1.png

[Winehole23]

Cappuccino = girly coffee.:ihitA testament to the broad appeal and excellence of coffee. Girls like it too, and real men even like the girly coffee. Me, I like it every which way.

[TeyshaBlue]

Me, I like it every which way.

Yeah, I've heard that about you.:eyebrows

[Winehole23]

Well, it's true.

[TeyshaBlue]

Well, it's true.

*French laugh* http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRRx3ak7sO848oTr75O6jIK3VnWwzxRi SlgweWqG0zoKl2FubFSQA

[ElNono]

As someone who has a Starbucks card in their wallet and gets far too much coffee there I have to say they have burned my god damn shit too much for me to give them too much credit. There's a Starbucks right behind where I work and they are on the ball but if I go elsewhere its almost always fucked.

Mostly I was just yanking your chain though. :)

I think it depends on the place. Around here, for example, I have a terrible time finding a Donkin' Donuts that will prepare a proper cappuccino, and I'm 99% sure they just punch the button on a machine, but I always end up with a latte, which is not what I ordered. :bang

[coyotes_geek]

http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/really1.png

Twas not my intent to look like I was rubbing it in. I was saluting your well-placed boutons spoof. :)

Now if you'll pardon me, I need to GFM.

[TeyshaBlue]

Twas not my intent to look like I was rubbing it in. I was saluting your well-placed boutons spoof. :)

Now if you'll pardon me, I need to GFM.

:lmao

[CuckingFunt]

I hardly go to Starbucks anymore. Too many good local places to choose from in New Orleans. Starbucks works when I'm really craving a frappuccino, but I don't really consider that to be coffee.

Living here has also broken me of the whole bean habit. Hooked on this stuff:
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/1783/qollargecafedumonde.jpg

[TeyshaBlue]

It's been forever since I've visited NO. I imagine there's some phenomenal coffee houses down there. When I get my bike, NO has some road trip potential.

[Wild Cobra]

I hardly go to Starbucks anymore. Too many good local places to choose from in New Orleans. Starbucks works when I'm really craving a frappuccino, but I don't really consider that to be coffee.

Living here has also broken me of the whole bean habit. Hooked on this stuff:
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/1783/qollargecafedumonde.jpg
I never considered Starbucks to be good enough to justify their prices, and they bought out their competitions that I did like.

[DarrinS]

A simple Columbian coffee, like Yuban, works for me.

[ElNono]

Colombian...

[ChumpDumper]

lol Darrin's back now that the subject has changed.

[Winehole23]

The old comfortable shoe, even for Darrin. This thread reigns.



\oo/

[Winehole23]

Colombian...Too subtle by half. Maxwell House and Folger's come to mind, but perhaps I'm dating myself...

[Winehole23]

I hardly go to Starbucks anymore. Too many good local places to choose from in New Orleans. Starbucks works when I'm really craving a frappuccino, but I don't really consider that to be coffee.

Living here has also broken me of the whole bean habit. Hooked on this stuff:
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/1783/qollargecafedumonde.jpgPride of place. The coffee tradition, alas, isn't so strong here. Admiration.

[Winehole23]

All hail to the local brand of proven strength and quality.

[Winehole23]

A simple Columbian coffee, like Yuban, works for me.sHQ_aTjXObs

[TeyshaBlue]

Ok, WH. My order of Sulawesi Kolassi was on my porch when I got home. Brewed a pot this morning.....I'm a fan. Bright, crisp with a soft almost mute, nutty body. No acidity. Kinda Jamaican Blue meets Sumatra.
I'm a fan now. Thanks, dude. :tu

[boutons_deux]

Right-wing hate machine's lie and fantasies and fear-mongering do the nation a great service.

Electrical Manufacturers Denounce Media Coverage Of Light Bulb Standards

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201105260006?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MediaMattersForAmerica-CountyFair+%28Media+Matters+for+America+-+County+Fair%29

Fuck 'em all to hell.

[RandomGuy]

I hardly go to Starbucks anymore. Too many good local places to choose from in New Orleans. Starbucks works when I'm really craving a frappuccino, but I don't really consider that to be coffee.

Living here has also broken me of the whole bean habit. Hooked on this stuff:
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/1783/qollargecafedumonde.jpg

My wife who has only just started drinking coffee this year, says that chicory is the way to go for her. I honestly really can't tell the difference.

If you want a real coffee adventure, look into buying the beans unroasted and roast them yourself. I used to work with a guy who did that, and he would roast some before coming to work, then bring the beans in, grind them on the spot and brew it. Best coffee I have ever had.

[RandomGuy]

You can presumedly use a plain old popcorn popper to roast the beans. So it doesn't take much to get into it.

[RandomGuy]

Right-wing hate machine's lie and fantasies and fear-mongering do the nation a great service.

Electrical Manufacturers Denounce Media Coverage Of Light Bulb Standards

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201105260006?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MediaMattersForAmerica-CountyFair+%28Media+Matters+for+America+-+County+Fair%29

Fuck 'em all to hell.

What does that have to do with coffee? (blinks innocently)

[TeyshaBlue]

My wife who has only just started drinking coffee this year, says that chicory is the way to go for her. I honestly really can't tell the difference.

If you want a real coffee adventure, look into buying the beans unroasted and roast them yourself. I used to work with a guy who did that, and he would roast some before coming to work, then bring the beans in, grind them on the spot and brew it. Best coffee I have ever had.

I just can't handle the chickory...it instantly transforms a good cup of coffee into a bitter, biting beat down. I'd love to try my hand at roasting tho....but that seems like an expensive hobby. I need another one of those like I need a hole in my head.:p:

[TeyshaBlue]

You can presumedly use a plain old popcorn popper to roast the beans. So it doesn't take much to get into it.

Really? *perk*

[TeyshaBlue]

lol @ angrybot.

[RandomGuy]

Right-wing hate machine's lie and fantasies and fear-mongering do the nation a great service.

Electrical Manufacturers Denounce Media Coverage Of Light Bulb Standards

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201105260006?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MediaMattersForAmerica-CountyFair+%28Media+Matters+for+America+-+County+Fair%29

Fuck 'em all to hell.


"the Light Bulb Freedom of Choice Act,"

:lmao

Almost as good as the "repeal the job killing health care reform act"

(cues clown music)

The greatest show on earth.

[RandomGuy]

I just can't handle the chickory...it instantly transforms a good cup of coffee into a bitter, biting beat down. I'd love to try my hand at roasting tho....but that seems like an expensive hobby. I need another one of those like I need a hole in my head.:p:

Well my wife dumps a ton of sugar and cream into it, so bitter isn't as much of a concern.

[coyotes_geek]

I'm working my way through some Ghiradelli beans I got as a gift. Never really thought of Ghiradelli for anything other than chocolate, but I'm very pleased by their coffee.

[TeyshaBlue]

Dammit! Home roasters are actually priced reasonably. I'm fucking doomed.:depressed :lol

http://www.roastmasters.com/behmor.html

[boutons_deux]

Costco Costa Rica French Roast jumped for $10 a couple months ago to $15.

[TeyshaBlue]

$15 bucks at Costco? Yikes.:greedy

I've never ground any Costa Rican beans.

[TeyshaBlue]

And now for something completely different:

http://makeyourfranklin.com/gallery.html
Some of them are pretty awesome.:lol

http://makeyourfranklin.com/img/fabio-maiorana.jpg

[coyotes_geek]

This one gets my vote.

http://makeyourfranklin.com/img/sylvain-weiss.jpg

Although style points do need to be deducted for fucking up DARTH Vader's name.

[boutons_deux]

Costa Rica French Roast is a 2 lb bag.

online they have 5 lb bags:

http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?whse=BC&topnav=&search=coffee%20beans&N=0&Ntt=coffee%20beans&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm in real trouble if I'm drinking 5 pound bags of coffee before they go stale. :lol

Although, my spousal unit can put down the joe too.

[clambake]

no love for illy?

[boutons_deux]

keep the beans in the fridge and air tight to cut down oxidation, but 5 lb is a bunch.

Costco Costa Rican and others are roasted on site, in a torrefaction oven.

[LnGrrrR]

I hardly go to Starbucks anymore. Too many good local places to choose from in New Orleans. Starbucks works when I'm really craving a frappuccino, but I don't really consider that to be coffee.

Living here has also broken me of the whole bean habit. Hooked on this stuff:
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/1783/qollargecafedumonde.jpg

Have you been to Joey K's yet? IIRC, it's on Magazin St.

[RandomGuy]

Dammit! Home roasters are actually priced reasonably. I'm fucking doomed.:depressed :lol

http://www.roastmasters.com/behmor.html

The problem is getting the green beans to roast. Let me know how it turns out, I would love to roast my own as well, and have been meaning to try at some point.

[TeyshaBlue]

Well, I found that DeCoty Coffee Co offers them when I was googling them to look at their recent history. They seem to have a fair offering of beans.
http://www.decoty.com/catalogItems/index/117

Another company with a bit better selection:
http://www.coffeebeandirect.com/index.php?cPath=63_67

Figuring out how to vett the quality of the beans is gonna present a learning curve.
I'm gonna give this a try, I think.

[Drachen]

Well, I found that DeCoty Coffee Co offers them when I was googling them to look at their recent history. They seem to have a fair offering of beans.
http://www.decoty.com/catalogItems/index/117

Another company with a bit better selection:
http://www.coffeebeandirect.com/index.php?cPath=63_67

Figuring out how to vett the quality of the beans is gonna present a learning curve.
I'm gonna give this a try, I think.

Just get a metal box, hook up a bulb socket and put a tray for the beans so that you can roast beans.... whoops never mind, you won't be able to roast beans with a light bulb after all of the mandates take effect.

[TeyshaBlue]

Just get a metal box, hook up a bulb socket and put a tray for the beans so that you can roast beans.... whoops never mind, you won't be able to roast beans with a light bulb after all of the mandates take effect.

:lol
Halogens, baby!

[scott]

Boutons shops at Costco.




Just let that sink in for a moment.

[MannyIsGod]

Dfachen just helped me realize the mandates mean the end of the EZ bake Oven. Maybe thats why Darrin is so upset. :lmao

[boutons_deux]

Boutons shops at Costco.

Just let that sink in for a moment.

another dickless ankle-biter out himself. :)

[DarrinS]

Dfachen just helped me realize the mandates mean the end of the EZ bake Oven. Maybe thats why Darrin is so upset. :lmao


The larger issue is that the fed sometimes issues regulations that lead to inferior products. Washing machines are a good example.

On the other hand, sometimes the fed issues regulations that improve products and/or safety, e.g. NHTSA.

I think there will come a day when something like a Chevy Suburban will be illegal to own and operate.

[Drachen]

The larger issue is that the fed sometimes issues regulations that lead to inferior products. Washing machines are a good example.

On the other hand, sometimes the fed issues regulations that improve products and/or safety, e.g. NHTSA.

I think there will come a day when something like a Chevy Suburban will be illegal to own and operate.

I think there will come a day when something like a Chevy Suburban will have be able to achieve 35 miles per gallon city/40 highway. I also think that this fuel efficiency rating will still put it in the "gas guzzler" category (relative to the rest of the cars and trucks being sold)

[ChumpDumper]

lol washing machines

Do alpha males fluff and fold their own laundry, Darrin?

[MannyIsGod]

Lol ezbake ovens and washing machines. What an alpha male.

[clambake]

alpha males don't get owned this way. lol

[RandomGuy]

The larger issue is that the fed sometimes issues regulations that lead to inferior products. Washing machines are a good example.

On the other hand, sometimes the fed issues regulations that improve products and/or safety, e.g. NHTSA.

I think there will come a day when something like a Chevy Suburban will be illegal to own and operate.

I think you are wrong about that.

Long before then things like that will be so uneconomical to operate for most people, that it will become uneconomical to manufacture on any mass scale.

There were still always be grossly huge and/or fuel inefficient vehicles for those who want them, just as the light bulbs will still be made for those who want to spend ten times the money on electricity on lighting their houses.

This is where I will give credit to Republicans and libertarians for providing some checks on government to keep it from really going overboard on outright bans that unduly limit the economy. It is good to have people looking out for that, and that is why I think such things are less probable than you seem to.

[RandomGuy]

Next year, "you will be mandated by federal law to get rid of your existing light bulbs."


http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/rulings%2Ftom-pantsonfire.gif


A fundraising letter making the rounds from a conservative political action committee draws a political line in the sand over light bulbs.

The letter, circulated by AmeriPAC, a political action committee that largely supports conservative Republican candidates, claims President Barack Obama is "banning" incandescent light bulbs in favor of compact fluorescent lighting. It includes a lengthy letter purported to be written by Ron Arnold of the Center for the Defense of Free Enterprise Action Fund.

"A silly little light bulb is merely a small piece of the larger puzzle of global socialism that he feels is his agenda to enslave the American people -- and to choke Americans from a free enterprise system!" the letter states.

The letter seeks contributions and support for S.B. 395, the Better Use of Light Bulbs (BULB) Act, sponsored by Sen. Mike Enzi, R-Wyo., which seeks to repeal the light bulb efficiency standards included in the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007.


The claim that next year, "you will be mandated by federal law to get rid of your existing light bulbs," has no basis in fact. It amounts to a manufactured, baseless charge, and we rate it Pants on Fire.

[RandomGuy]

"The new light bulbs will cost roughly six times the cost of the light bulbs we now use."--AmeriPAC on Monday, May 16th, 2011 in a fundraising letter

Conservative PAC claims new government regulations will force consumers to buy light bulbs that cost six times more

http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/rulings%2Ftom-barelytrue.gif


Later in its letter, the CDFE claims that "the new light bulbs will cost roughly six times the cost of the light bulbs we now use."

The letter quotes a Dec. 19, 2007, study from US News and World Report which states, "Each cone-shaped spiral CFL [compact fluorescent light] costs about $3, compared with 50 cents for a standard bulb."

There are, however, two major problems with the claims in the letter. The first, said Jen Stutsman, a spokeswoman for the Department of Energy, is that there are two costs to a light bulb: the front-end cost of a light bulb at the store and the cost of electricity to operate it.

The CDFE letter only considers one side of the equation -- the up-front cost.

The curly-shaped compact fluorescent light bulbs use about 75 percent less electricity than comparable incandescent bulbs and last about 10 times longer, according to an analysis by the Department of Energy. As a result, the DOE concluded, "typical CFLs can pay for themselves in less than nine months and then start saving you money each month."

Not that this really adds anything to the thread. Just ran across it.

[TeyshaBlue]

So they do cost 6x more. Ok. I'm pretty sure the common context, that being replacement of bulbs, refers to purchase.

[TeyshaBlue]

Just sayin...

[Winehole23]

The problem is getting the green beans to roast. Let me know how it turns out, I would love to roast my own as well, and have been meaning to try at some point.I've been told some Blue Mountain guys use cast iron skillets over open fires to roast beans for guys who want to drink Blue Mountain coffee on Blue Mountain. Heard it was pretty good...or did I see that on TV?



(Like making a chicken dish, prolly. Start with a really good chicken. It hardly matters what you do afterward short of undercooking the bird.)

[RandomGuy]

So they do cost 6x more. Ok. I'm pretty sure the common context, that being replacement of bulbs, refers to purchase.

Yup.

Of course if they last so much longer, and cost so much less electricity to operate, that the final cost of lighting your home is eight times longer in the long run, that would seem to be a pretty important fact to present.

But then we all know that fund-raising letters are long on scare and short on intellectual honesty. No surprise there.

Sadly, it is also not a surprise that some seem not to realize that they are being cynically manipulated in such a way and accept the information at face value. But again, this has already been pointed out.

[RandomGuy]

I've been told some Blue Mountain guys use cast iron skillets over open fires to roast beans for guys who want to drink Blue Mountain coffee on Blue Mountain. Heard it was pretty good...or did I see that on TV?



(Like making a chicken dish, prolly. Start with a really good chicken. It hardly matters what you do afterward short of undercooking the bird.)

That was one of the do-hickeys they have. A simple cast iron skillet with some mesh in it to keep the beans from direct contact, if memory serves.

Mmm. this is making want another cup... :wakeup

[Barry O'Bama]

http://media.miamiherald.com/images/redesign/mh_logo_print.gif

Posted on Mon, Jun. 13, 2011
Texas light bulb bill would skirt federal plan

By ANNA M. TINSLEY
McClatchy Newspapers
Texas could soon be in a position to turn the lights off on a federal plan to phase out certain light bulbs. State lawmakers have passed a bill that allows Texans to skirt federal efforts to promote more efficient light bulbs, which ultimately pushes the swirled, compact fluorescent bulbs over the 100-watt incandescent bulbs many grew up with.
The measure, sent to Gov. Rick Perry for consideration, lets any incandescent light bulb manufactured in Texas - and sold in that state - avoid the authority of the federal government or the repeal of the 2007 energy independence act that starts phasing out some incandescent light bulbs next year.
"Let there be light," state Rep. George Lavender, R-Texarkana, wrote on Facebook after the bill passed. "It will allow the continued manufacture and sale of incandescent light bulbs in Texas, even after the federal ban goes into effect. ... It's a good day for Texas."
The Natural Resources Defense Council, a New York-based environmental group, is calling on Perry to veto the bill.
"The Texas legislation is designed to showcase the state's independence," said Bob Keefe, senior press secretary with the council. "But what it really shows off is how some politicians in the Lone Star State will do anything to score political points - even if it means echoing misinformation and wasting time and money passing legislation that can't practically be implemented and isn't in the best interest of constituents."
Perry has until Sunday to veto bills, sign them into law or let them become law without his signature.
Lavender has described his House Bill 2510 as a common-sense bill.
"The 'new and improved' compact fluorescent light bulbs don't work as promised, are significantly more expensive as are the LEDs and have environmental and disposal problems due to the mercury they contain," according to a statement from his office.
The goal of the bill is to make incandescent light bulbs manufactured in Texas - that are sold in Texas and don't leave the state - not subject to federal law or federal rules. Such a bulb would have to have "Made in Texas" clearly imprinted somewhere on it. There are no estimates of how many incandescent light bulbs are manufactured in Texas.
If the bill becomes law, it would go into effect Jan. 1 and would apply to light bulbs made from that day forward.
U.S. Rep. Joe Barton, R-Texas, is trying to repeal the 2007 energy independence act passed by Congress and signed into law by President George W. Bush.
The federal act doesn't ban incandescent light bulbs, but it creates new standards for them, such as requiring 100-watt bulbs to be 25 percent more efficient. After that, similar changes will go into effect for 75-, 60- and 40-watt bulbs. The goal is to make the bulbs more energy efficient because much of the traditional bulbs' energy leaves the bulb as heat rather than as light.
The act requires the changes or essentially removes incandescent light bulbs from the market by 2014, leaving consumers to mostly use fluorescent bulbs, which some say are more energy efficient and others say are just more expensive.
"People don't want the government dictating the lighting they can use," Barton said. "Traditional incandescent bulbs have been brightening the night since Thomas Edison created the first one in 1879. They are safe, cheap and reliable."

The U.S. House Energy and Commerce Committee may soon hold a hearing on energy efficiency and could include Barton's BULB act.
"I am happy that the state Legislature voted to keep incandescent lights on in Texas, but the state wouldn't have to get involved if the federal government would just butt out," Barton said.
For some, the Texas bill represents this state's efforts to claim sovereignty from the federal government, proving that Texas has the right to regulate some commercial activities conducted only in this state.
"Telling Texans what types of light bulbs they can manufacture, sell, purchase and use is not the proper role of the federal government," said Janise Cookston, a spokeswoman for the Wharton-based nonprofit group "We Texans," which works to protect "private property, personal and economic liberty" as well as constitutional government.
"This bill sends the message to Washington that Texas will no longer sit idly by and take unconstitutional intrusion into our lives."

Some say they worry about fluorescent bulbs because they contain mercury, a toxic metal linked to birth defects and behavioral disorders. Estimates show the average bulb has 4 to 5 milligrams of mercury, enough to cover the tip of a ballpoint pin. No mercury is emitted while the bulbs are in use, but vapors can escape if a bulb breaks.
Supporters also say fluorescent bulbs can cost more than $3 each; incandescent bulbs can cost as little as 35 cents each.
Opponents say the health risks of the mercury are minimal. And they say the bill violates the constitutional clause that states the federal law is the "supreme law of the land."
They say the state can't prevent a light bulb from being taken across a state line, which would make it subject to interstate commerce rules and federal regulation. They also say incandescent bulbs are archaic and have been replaced by fluorescent bulbs that last longer, are more environmentally friendly and don't create the same fire hazards incandescent bulbs do.
"Nobody is forcing anybody to use only compact florescent bulbs," said Keefe, of the NRDC. "Several manufacturers are already making incandescent bulbs that have the same lighting quality as old-school incandescents that we all know and use. It's just that newer, more efficient versions use 25-30 percent less energy - saving the average Texas household an estimated $100 per year and reducing overall Texas energy bills by more than $900 million."


Officials with Osram Sylvania, a popular producer of incandescent light bulbs, declined to comment on Texas' bill. But the company noted that it has developed a more efficient incandescent bulb called the Sylvania SuperSaver that will meet the new federal requirements.
GE, meanwhile, is moving forward to fill the demand for fluorescent bulbs.
Officials there say demand for traditional incandescent bulbs has declined and consumers have switched to more efficient lighting.
"As policymakers consider changes to current legislation, we hope they keep in mind that repeal of national standards would result in states establishing their own standards," said Kim Freeman, a spokeswoman for GE Appliances & Lighting. "That could create a patchwork of inconsistent standards across the nation that would mean increased manufacturing and distribution costs, higher prices for consumers and lost sales for retailers."








Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/06/13/v-print/2264896/texas-light-bulb-bill-would-skirt.html#ixzz1PT40Rnn4

[ChumpDumper]

Texas lawmakers are retarded.

[TeyshaBlue]

That was one of the do-hickeys they have. A simple cast iron skillet with some mesh in it to keep the beans from direct contact, if memory serves.

Mmm. this is making want another cup... :wakeup

I got my rotating bin roaster about 10 days ago. I've roasted 6 batches so far....mostly huehuetenango, which turned out glorious! I got a pound of Kona beans from a buddy in Hilo. They were ok, but not near as good as I remember them when I was over there. Of course, even motor oil tastes good on the deck overlooking the beach. :lol

[TeyshaBlue]

Texas lawmakers are retarded.

Next up, each CFL purchased in Texas will be subject to a mandatory sonogram.

[Winehole23]

outta control.

[ChumpDumper]

Next up, each CFL purchased in Texas will be subject to a mandatory sonogram.
:lmao

[Barry O'Bama]

Texas lawmakers are retarded.


Do you really feel that the federal government should oversee every and anything you do, think or feel?

[Winehole23]

Sock puppet extends his fuzzy paw of accusation.

[Winehole23]

Takes one to know one, eh?

[ChumpDumper]

Do you really feel that the federal government should oversee every and anything you do, think or feel?Straw man.

[Barry O'Bama]

Straw man.


Yawn,

Then again I've read your posts and you really don't think for yourself.

[ChumpDumper]

Yawn,

Then again I've read your posts and you really don't think for yourself.Yawn.

Then again I've read your posts and you really don't think.

[SnakeBoy]

"furiously obfuscating" --lol

Meh, go fuck yourself. I'll stock up on the soon-to-be-outlawed bulbs. By the time I run out, maybe the LEDs will be worth it. Right now, they are not.

Why? CFL's are cheap, last longer, use less electricity, & their spectrums are very similar to incandescents now. So why are you so against using them?

[Drachen]

The thread.... It's alive.... IT'S ALIVE!!!!!


I thought it had burned out after only a couple of weeks.... you know, like an incandescent bulb.

(badum-bum)

[ElNono]

Next up: Perry proposes "Texas rotary phone for alpha males" legislation.

[Winehole23]

The lights are on, but there's no electricity.

[Winehole23]

(it's a freeking spurstalk miracle)

[Winehole23]

When I drove to the offices of a start-up called Switch Lighting (http://switchlightbulbs.com/) last week, I wasn't expecting much. A company representative had promised to show me something amazing—an alternative light bulb that uses a fraction of the energy of a traditional incandescent bulb and lasts 20 times as long, but that plugs into a standard socket and produces the same warm, yellowish, comforting glow that we're all used to seeing when we flip the switch.http://www.slate.com/id/2298444/pagenum/all

[Drachen]

http://www.slate.com/id/2298444/pagenum/all

These look very cool!

[coyotes_geek]

Bought my first three LED light bulbs this weekend from Home Depot. I'll confess I winced a bit at the cash register, but running the numbers on electric costs & replacement costs I'll still come out ahead about $60 per bulb.

Only difference I've noticed between the LED's and the other incadescents in the room is that there's a slight delay (noticeable, but probably not mroe than half a second) between flipping the switch and the light coming on whereas the incadescents come on instantly.

No signs of any Obama LED gestapo operatives at Home Depot.

[Winehole23]

Lights are on, at the Federally Mandated LED Lightbulb Cafe. CG brings the electricity.

[Spurminator]

No signs of any Obama LED gestapo operatives at Home Depot.

I hear those bulbs give off a barely-audible hum that subliminally preaches the virtues of unions and encourages women to have abortions.

[coyotes_geek]

I hear those bulbs give off a barely-audible hum that subliminally preaches the virtues of unions and encourages women to have abortions.

Now that you mention it, I have started to feel guilty about not providing health care coverage for the gentleman of questionable immigration status who mows my lawn.

[coyotes_geek]

Lights are on, at the Federally Mandated LED Lightbulb Cafe. CG brings the electricity.

:tu

And the coffee!

[Winehole23]

Presume it.

[Winehole23]

And a tall pitcher of fresh lemonade for the fellow cutting your lawn.


(Least you could do. It's beastly hot today)

[DarrinS]

In the United States, the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007, whose light bulb-related provisions will go into effect next year, requires greater efficiency from all light bulbs on the market; the act effectively outlaws the traditional incandescent bulb by 2014.




Incandescents outlawed? That's crazy talk.

[ChumpDumper]

I see Darrin wants to make it an even two months of fail.

[DarrinS]

I see Darrin wants to make it an even two months of fail.

Talk to Slate

[ChumpDumper]

Talk to SlateRead what you bolded.

[Winehole23]

echo in here?

[Drachen]

echo in here?

Fail Fail Fail Fail

[RandomGuy]

Pardon the repost...

---------------------------------------------

Just to get some hard facts:
Cost of a 100W incandescent equivalent (assume they are measuring lumens, the measurement of light): $47.89, life span 50,000 hours.

I found a cost comparison here:
http://eartheasy.com/live_led_bulbs_comparison.html

Given they have an obvious viewpoint, I decided to do some verification of their assumptions and found their 20 cents per kWh to be waaay too much.
But to be more realisitic I looked up the actual cost of electricity in San Antonio:
http://www.cpsenergy.com/files/Rate_ResidentialElectric030110.pdf
6 cents plus a bit for peak usage. Call it 6.2 cents to be fair.

The cost comparison assumption of the price of electricity is the most critical assumption.

Re-running their analysis, using San Antonio rates means that running the same 50,000 hours of illumination gets the following costs for a 100w equivalent:

LED:Bulbs: $48
Electricity: $40.30
Total cost: $88.30

Florescent:
Bulbs: $20
Electricity: $62
Total cost: $82

Incandescant:
Bulbs: $52.08
Electricity: $310
Total cost: $362.08

(edit)
Incandescant - LED = $273.78
Most houses have more than one light bulb. Our little house has about 14, by my mental count.
If you have just ten in your house, then that is a total difference of some $2,737.80 over that time period.
(end)

Given electricity rates rise over time, that differential will certainly be more, making that figure somewhat conservative.

Currently Florescents seem to be cheapest by a smidge.

Halve the cost of an LED, and that edge disappears, especially given the fragility and mercury contents of the florescents.

Darrin has every right to keep spending 10 times the electricity on lighting his house.

Did I mention that the LED bulb only gives out 5% of the heat that incandescants do?

Any one bulb or even five probably don't put out that much heat, but when you are paying to cool your house most of the year, that extra heat isn't all that welcome from an efficiency standpoint. My gut says the difference probably isn't all that much money-wise, just to be fair. Still it is a minor consideration.

[boutons_deux]

And don't forget, Barry reminds us to keep our tires well inflated :)

[RandomGuy]

Why? CFL's are cheap, last longer, use less electricity, & their spectrums are very similar to incandescents now. So why are you so against using them?

Well, he didn't post much after I actually looked up the real costs of using them, so I will have to assume that even he realized how dumb the OP was, and slinked off to find something else to post about.

Personally, I will be glad not to have to subsidize the jackasses who aren't smart enough to figure out that incandescents are eight to ten times more expensive.

If one multiplies the extra electricity required by incandescents by 100,000 households in any given city it starts to add up to the output of an entire power plant.

15 light bulbs times 80 watts a piece is 1200 watts each hour per household. Multiply that by 100,000 households that is 120Mw.

Why should my electricity bills be higher because of someone else's stupid choice of light bulbs?

[RandomGuy]

Incandescents outlawed? That's crazy talk.

:lmao

Reading fail.

The Obama light bulb police ain't gonna break your door down because you still have older bulbs. :rolleyes

Mandating efficiency changes for manufacturers, while effectively outlawing older designs, does not mean that incandescents with improved efficiency will not be available.

Keep harping on that debunked idea. :lol

The Slate article you referenced also noted that the LED light bulb they designed, in addition to being indistinguishable from incandescents in terms of quality/quantity of light, are also 1/2 the purchase cost of LEDs already on the market.
http://www.slate.com/id/2298444/

Given that even this will go down, the cost comparison that I gave above will only get more and more tilted to LEDs.

Bottom line:
1) no difference in the light,
2) the bulb will pay for itself in less than 4 years,
3) ends up costing less than 1/10th that of incandescents over its life span given the national average for electricity, and
4) given that fewer power plants need to be built, they lower the overall costs of electricity for the economy as a whole.

Not exactly the kind of "government overreach" that worries me, and the kind of nudge from government that free-markets occasionally need.

Still, be my guest and hoard all the old incandescents you want. :toast

[coyotes_geek]

Here's the math on the cost comparison I did for the bulbs I bought. 60W incadescent vs. 60W LED equivalents

LED's (brand = Philips)
Cost = $40
Lifespan = 25,000 hrs
Power usage = 12W

Incadescents (also Philips)
Cost = $0.33
Lifespan = 1,000 hrs
Power usage = 60W

Electricity from Austin Energy = $0.0785/kWh

LED = $40 + (12W)x(25,000hrs)x($0.0785/kWh) / (1,000 W/kW) = $63.55 for 25,000 hrs of use
Incadescent = $0.33 + (60W)x(1,000hrs)x($0.0785/kWh) / (1,000 W/kW) = $5.04 for 1,000 hrs of use

Multiply the $5.04 times 25 for the number of incadescents I'd have to buy to last as long as the LED bulb and that's $126.00. Delta between that and the LED is $62.45.

[DarrinS]

Multiply the $5.04 times 25 for the number of incadescents I'd have to buy to last as long as the LED bulb and that's $126.00. Delta between that and the LED is $62.45.


Say you use your lights for 8 hours/day (that's being generous)

25,000 hrs / (8 hrs/day) = 3125 days = 8½ years

So, you'd save $126 in 8.5 years or $14/year.

So, I guess you get your return on investment in about 2.7 years.

I'll wait for them to get better and a bit cheaper. I've had an LED flashlight for years, it just doesn't have the same brightness as my regular Maglight.

[RandomGuy]

Here's the math on the cost comparison I did for the bulbs I bought. 60W incadescent vs. 60W LED equivalents

LED's (brand = Philips)
Cost = $40
Lifespan = 25,000 hrs
Power usage = 12W

Incadescents (also Philips)
Cost = $0.33
Lifespan = 1,000 hrs
Power usage = 60W

Electricity from Austin Energy = $0.0785/kWh

LED = $40 + (12W)x(25,000hrs)x($0.0785/kWh) / (1,000 W/kW) = $63.55 for 25,000 hrs of use
Incadescent = $0.33 + (60W)x(1,000hrs)x($0.0785/kWh) / (1,000 W/kW) = $5.04 for 1,000 hrs of use

Multiply the $5.04 times 25 for the number of incadescents I'd have to buy to last as long as the LED bulb and that's $126.00. Delta between that and the LED is $62.45.

Eyup.

Worth noting:
The big variable is the amount of light one wants. 60W incandescent is pretty dim for some applications, so as the wattage goes up, so does the pwnage.

On a somewhat related note, there are some other interesting technologies in the pike that offer some interesting potentialities for computer displays:

http://www.economist.com/node/18833511 ("uantum dots", the first real application of nano-tech that seems to be panning out well)

[Th'Pusher]

Say you use your lights for 8 hours/day (that's being generous)

25,000 hrs / (8 hrs/day) = 3125 days = 8½ years

So, you'd save $126 in 8.5 years or $14/year.

So, I guess you get your return on investment in about 2.7 years.

I'll wait for them to get better and a bit cheaper. I've had an LED flashlight for years, it just doesn't have the same brightness as my regular Maglight.

This is actually a decent point. I'd like to see the calculations take into account the time value of money.

[coyotes_geek]

Say you use your lights for 8 hours/day (that's being generous)

25,000 hrs / (8 hrs/day) = 3125 days = 8½ years

So, you'd save $126 in 8.5 years or $14/year.

So, I guess you get your return on investment in about 2.7 years.

I'll wait for them to get better and a bit cheaper. I've had an LED flashlight for years, it just doesn't have the same brightness as my regular Maglight.

No doubt they'll get cheaper over time. It certainly doesn't make sense to stock up on LED's right now. I'm going with the phase out approach. An incadescent burns out, pick up an LED the next time I pass by Home Depot or Lowes.

[RandomGuy]

Say you use your lights for 8 hours/day (that's being generous)

25,000 hrs / (8 hrs/day) = 3125 days = 8½ years

So, you'd save $126 in 8.5 years or $14/year.

So, I guess you get your return on investment in about 2.7 years.

I'll wait for them to get better and a bit cheaper. I've had an LED flashlight for years, it just doesn't have the same brightness as my regular Maglight.

To be more technically accurate:
That assumes the price of electricity will remain the same, and that there is no inflation.

Given the Chinese/Indian appetite for coal and other fuels, I would be rather surprised if the rises in cost of electricity did not outpace that of inflation over the next 7 year period. But that is a whole other topic.

[DarrinS]

No doubt they'll get cheaper over time. It certainly doesn't make sense to stock up on LED's right now. I'm going with the phase out approach. An incadescent burns out, pick up an LED the next time I pass by Home Depot or Lowes.


I'm generally not an early adopter of any technology. The one exception being some Apple products. I paid more for an iPod touch than I paid for my iPhone4.:wow


I know they have been replacing traffic lights with LEDs for quite a while. One of the unintended consequences is that LEDs don't produce enough heat to melt snow, and have been responsible for some accidents as snow covers the lenses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/02/us/02lights.html?src=twt&twt=nytimes

[Wild Cobra]

To be more technically accurate:
That assumes the price of electricity will remain the same, and that there is no inflation.

Given the Chinese/Indian appetite for coal and other fuels, I would be rather surprised if the rises in cost of electricity did not outpace that of inflation over the next 7 year period. But that is a whole other topic.
As electricity increases in price, the LED's become a better deal yet. That is assuming they actually last 25,000 hours. I trust the LED's themselves will, but there is other circuitry involved, and power fluctuation are likely to affect this circuitry harsher than on incandescents.

[DarrinS]

To be more technically accurate:
That assumes the price of electricity will remain the same, and that there is no inflation.

Well, obviously. Sometimes you just need a "back of the napkin" calculation. No need to include the butterfly effect.

[Wild Cobra]

Only difference I've noticed between the LED's and the other incadescents in the room is that there's a slight delay (noticeable, but probably not mroe than half a second) between flipping the switch and the light coming on whereas the incadescents come on instantly.

How well do they work in a dimmer circuit?

[DarrinS]

How well do they work in a dimmer circuit?

I suppose the circuitry could turn off some of the individual LED's to simulate a dimming bulb.

[Wild Cobra]

I suppose the circuitry could turn off some of the individual LED's to simulate a dimming bulb.
I don't think they will work in a dimmer circuit, but I had to bring that into question.

I think I will buy one today out of shits and giggles.

[coyotes_geek]

I'm generally not an early adopter of any technology. The one exception being some Apple products. I paid more for an iPod touch than I paid for my iPhone4.:wow


I know they have been replacing traffic lights with LEDs for quite a while. One of the unintended consequences is that LEDs don't produce enough heat to melt snow, and have been responsible for some accidents as snow covers the lenses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/02/us/02lights.html?src=twt&twt=nytimes

The snow melt thing certainly is a downside to using LED's for traffic lights, but the benefits more than make up for it. One incadescent bulb in a signal burns out and that color on the signal is completely out. Each color on an LED signal is a bunch of individual LED's so one going out still leaves you with a functioning signal.


How well do they work in a dimmer circuit?

Haven't tried them on a dimmer circuit yet. If I remember I'll give them a try this weekend.

[DarrinS]

One incadescent bulb in a signal burns out and that color on the signal is completely out. Each color on an LED signal is a bunch of individual LED's so one going out still leaves you with a functioning signal.


That's true, they do have some built-in redundancy. I have noticed while waiting at some lights that one or two of the LED's were out, but, overall, the light still functioned. I guess you have to lose more than 30% of them before the whole thing needs to be replaced.

[coyotes_geek]

My two second google search about LED's & dimmer switches tells me that you either need a special LED-specific dimmer switch, or a special dimmer switch compatible LED bulb.

[ChumpDumper]

Darrin is afraid the traffic lights in his living room will be obscured by snow.

LEDs can definitely dim. Stage lighting adopted LEDs in a big way and you can rest assured those dim and fade. Wouldn't doubt that the circuitry is different.

[DarrinS]

Darrin is afraid the traffic lights in his living room will be obscured by snow.

Yep, that's it.

[ChumpDumper]

Yep, that's it.What is it then?

[DarrinS]

What is it then?


If the govt is going to start limiting peoples choices, just make the newly mandated alternatives as good as the originals -- whether that be bulbs, appliances, cars, whatever. I know that is a really radical and "extreme" concept.

[ChumpDumper]

If the govt is going to start limiting peoples choices, just make the newly mandated alternatives as good as the originals -- whether that be bulbs, appliances, cars, whatever. I know that is a really radical and "extreme" concept.And the snow in your living room has what to do with this?

[boutons_deux]

"If the govt is going to start limiting peoples choices"

you mean like forcing seniors out of Medicare and into the clutches of for-profit insurers?

[Winehole23]

snow melt :lmao

[DarrinS]

snow melt :lmao

Fatal accidents at intersections are hilarious. It's actually a real problem if you read up on it.

[Winehole23]

Where do you live, Sir?

[TeyshaBlue]

Fatal accidents at intersections are hilarious. It's actually a real problem if you read up on it.

Sounds like alot of correlation with very little causation. Too many external factors (snow is, like, slick you know) to peg a lack of snowmelting on traffic lights as a critical factor in an accident.

[DarrinS]

Where do you live, Sir?

Did I say it affected me, personally? I'm sure it does snow in many areas that have traffic signals.

[Winehole23]

Do the wintry conditions mitigate the desirability of LED lamps?

[Winehole23]

Sounds like alot of correlation with very little causation. Too many external factors (snow is, like, slick you know) to peg a lack of snowmelting on traffic lights as a critical factor in an accident.Oops. Ran into a buzzsaw right there. Occupational hazard. :toast

[Winehole23]

Because I made fun of Darrin, I mocked traffic casualties everywhere. Haw haw haw. Typical grandiosity and emotional mawkishness. I like petit bourgeois propriety, I like it plenty, but sometimes Darrin makes me want to throw it away; I'm not sure how I feel about being on the same side.

[DarrinS]

Because I made fun of Darrin, I mocked traffic casualties everywhere. Haw haw haw. Typical grandiosity and emotional mawkishness. I like petit bourgeois propriety, I like it plenty, but sometimes Darrin makes me want to throw it away; I'm not sure how I feel about being on the same side.

You read like Faulkner -- a long-winded gas bag. Read some Hemminway and put down your thesaurus.

[MannyIsGod]

You're a stupid and snide little bitch, Darrin. It not anyone else's fault they have a larger vocabulary than you and that certainly not a detriment. You constantly get destroyed through you're idiotic postings on this board and resort to telling people that they should be like others or making irrelevant observations because when you post on the subject your posts rarely stand up on their own. Well, that is when you don't just disappear. To call you weasley would be an insult to the animal. Grow some fucking balls.

That being said, the annoying ankle biting fuck is right about snow and ice build up on the new LEDs being a problem that wasn't predicted. It was easily solved though. Add a weather shield, a small hear, or something like Rain X and you're good to go.

[ChumpDumper]

You read like Faulkner -- a long-winded gas bag. Read some Hemminway and put down your thesaurus.Hemmingway would think you are a whiny douche too.

[Winehole23]

You read like Faulkner -- a long-winded gas bag. Read some Hemminway and put down your thesaurus.That's ok. I don't like your style either.


:toast

[DarrinS]

That's ok. I don't like your style either.


:toast

Nice and concise.

[Winehole23]

Put down the thesaurus, dude.

[DarrinS]

Put down the thesaurus, dude.

Short, sweet, and to the point.

[ChumpDumper]

Why is Darrin trying to impress Winehole?

[Winehole23]

Darrin's trying to give me pointers on style, I think.

[Winehole23]

Apparently he hates "big words" like grandiosity, mawkishness and propriety.

[Winehole23]

That they describe him so aptly must be galling.

[ElNono]

mawkishness

:reading

[Winehole23]

Jeez y'all, these aren't even SAT words.

[DarrinS]

Jeez y'all, these aren't even SAT words.

Whinehole in Goodwill Hunting

ymsHLkB8u3s

[Wild Cobra]

Well, just plugged in an Ecosmart Daylight White A19 V2 CW 120. 13 watt 60 watt equivalent, 4900k, 950 lumens. Picked it up at Home depot for $36.97. Looks as bright as the 60 watt equivalent CFL it's next to.

[admiralsnackbar]

Whinehole in Goodwill Hunting

ymsHLkB8u3s
Darrin using other people's hackneyed thoughts to try to put down a person who is intellectually superior to himself and inadvertently showing himself to be the same kind of douche lord as the one found (wait for it...) in the clip he posted!

Bravo, Darrin :lol

[ElNono]

Well, just plugged in an Ecosmart Daylight White A19 V2 CW 120. 13 watt 60 watt equivalent, 4900k, 950 lumens. Picked it up at Home depot for $36.97. Looks as bright as the 60 watt equivalent CFL it's next to.

Never seen a LCD as bright as a CFL or bulb yet... I'll have to check it out

[ChumpDumper]

Whinehole in Goodwill Hunting

ymsHLkB8u3sWhat does this have to do with light bulbs, Darrin?

[Wild Cobra]

Never seen a LCD as bright as a CFL or bulb yet... I'll have to check it out
What I'm disappointed about is that theoretically, LED's are about twice as efficient as florescent. However, both 60 watt equivalents use 13 watts. there must be too much circuitry involved keeping the LED's at their proper voltage through voltage changes. They work best with a smooth current control.

Now the LED is rated at 950 lumens, the CFL only 800. Makes it a little more efficient.

More accurately, the FEIT Daylight 60 CFL says it uses 210 mA on the base. The LED says it uses 125 mA. This doesn't make sense, unless CFL ratings are a lie. If we use the nominal 120 VAC for both, the CFL uses 25.2 watts, the LED uses 15 watts. However, the base of the LED bulb says 14 watts rather than the 13, as the package says. Do CFLs get to ignore their ballast wattage when they rate the watts?

Wish they were more accurate. Damn marketing.

What ever circuitry drives the LED, the base gets very hot. Too bad the current control isn't more efficient.

[ChumpDumper]

What ever circuitry drives the LED, the base gets very hot. Too bad the current control isn't more efficient.The base of the light bulb? Interesting. I wonder if that is due to the single high (relatively speaking) wattage. None of the stage lights I mentioned before get hot, but most are arrays of lower wattage LEDs.

[Wild Cobra]

I use mostly the 75 watt equivalent CFL's in my place. However, here are links to the 60 watt eq. Feit CLF, and 60 watt eq. LED:

Ecosmart ECS A19 V2 CW 120 (http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Light-Bulbs-LED/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm79/R-202668649/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)

FEIT BPESL13T/D (http://www.bulbtronics.com/Search-The-Warehouse/ProductDetail.aspx?sid=0038322&pid=FEBPESL13TD&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1)

This 100 watt equivalent is sweet:

Feit PBESL23TM/D (http://www.hardwareandtools.com/Feit-Electric-BPESL23TM-D-23-Watt-Daylight-Compact-Fluorescent-Light-6183982.html)

I bought 2 cases of each the 60W, 75W, and 100W eq. Feits when Lowe's had them on sale for $0.99 each some years back.

[Wild Cobra]

The base of the light bulb? Interesting. I wonder if that is due to the single high (relatively speaking) wattage. None of the stage lights I mentioned before get hot, but most are arrays of lower wattage LEDs.
The LED's I bet stay pretty cool. It's the electronics that drives them that gets hot. Your stage lighting LED's will have these controls at the dimmer controls. Probably in a decent size box with a fan.

LED's are Light Emitting DIODES. A diode has a constant breakdown voltage. If your voltage is less, it will not light. If it is more, it will burn out instantly. No room for error, therefore a current control of some sort is necessary for them to maintain their voltage under changing conditions. I'm sure the circuitry will get better as competition increases. I am frankly surprised they get as hot as they do. I understand it though. Maybe I should say disappointed they didn't use a better circuitry design.

The link I previously posted has this picture:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/cd/cd46b55b-8eac-45d8-b302-e5bd02346d01_300.jpg

Those cooling fins do get hot.

[ChumpDumper]

No fans in any of the effect or spot lights I've seen. Of course the size of the lights probably facilitates passive cooling, but that doesn't make any spot on the case even warm to the touch where incandescents that do the same job would sear flesh.

[Wild Cobra]

No fans in any of the effect or spot lights I've seen. Of course the size of the lights probably facilitates passive cooling, but that doesn't make any spot on the case even warm to the touch where incandescents that do the same job would sear flesh.
I think you missed my point. A standard replacement bulb for home use will have all the circuitry inside the bulb. Stage lighting uses a dimmer. That dimmer is good enough to control the current from minimum to maximum without damaging the LED's and will have the heat at the dimmer. Not the bulb, with built-in circuitry.

If I'm a manufacturer of a bulb, to make it last and acceptable. I have to make it produce light between maybe 90 volts to 140 volts, and even spiking conditions as commercial power can be erratic. In a controlled sstage lighting setup, I can already have a good regulated power supply, minimizing the need to work under broad uncontrolled fluctuations. The fluctuation is controlled with intent. Let's say each LED had a breakdown voltage of 2.7 volts, and I put 30 of them in series. I now have a breakdown voltage of 81 volts. The simplest way to allow for the 125 mAmps at 120 volts is to use a dropping resister. I need to drop 39 volts at 125 mA under this assumed 30 LEDs x 2.7V. That would take a 312 ohm resister in series. Now at a power strained brownout condition of 90 volts, I am dropping 9 volts across a 312 ohm resistance. This makes my current only 29 mA, and my lighting is going to be noticeable dimmer. However, at a 140 volt fluctuation, I now have 59 volts to drop. That 189 mA of current, and my lighting will be more than 50% brighter, and will burn out if more than a short duration. This simple resister generates heat. At the nominal 120 volts, it will generate 4-7/8 watts. Not much, but when you confine it, it can get toasty rather fast. These bulbs more likely use a circuit that maintains constant current within a specified voltage range. Again, I am simply surprised they are so inefficient.

[ChumpDumper]

I think you missed my point. A standard replacement bulb for home use will have all the circuitry inside the bulb. Stage lighting uses a dimmer. That dimmer is good enough to control the current from minimum to maximum without damaging the LED's and will have the heat at the dimmer. Not the bulb, with built-in circuitry.I think you missed my point. The bulbs and dimmers are both internal to these lights, and the lights don't get hot from either. I'm sure it's a combination of the wattage involved with each bulb/dimmer and the size of the lights.

[Wild Cobra]

I think you missed my point. The bulbs and dimmers are both internal to these lights, and the lights don't get hot from either. I'm sure it's a combination of the wattage involved with each bulb/dimmer and the size of the lights.
Bulbs meant to be dimmed and from a stable power source will not have the need for circuitry like home LED's do. The dimmer isn't in the bulbs, it is just that the bulbs are made to be dimmable.

You have no minimum current to worry about since you will dim to zero lighting. All you need is a variable source that will not exceed their maximum current capacity. That's why they develop almost no heat.

They are made for that purpose, right?

[ElNono]

That LED light you have is dimmable. The way it works is that it's built internally from a bunch of smaller LEDs and a flood type of cover. The controller on the light detects the voltage coming in, and turns off LEDs from the bunch to 'simulate' the dimming.

Large area LED lights are prohibitively expensive right now (specifically the layering), so you won't see lightbulbs made of a single LED diode and the size of a bulb anytime soon.

[ElNono]

White light emitting LEDs are also still being actively researched and developed to bring a higher intensity. The trick with white LEDs, be it phosphor or RGB, is that it's generated either by combining multiple colors or enlarging the light wavelength (ie: Blue light on phosphor LEDs). Part of either process washes up a bit the intensity and obviously requires more energy to produce the final white color.

[RandomGuy]

Of all the things I expected to do with my life, "participate in an extended conversation about light bulbs" is not one that would have made the list.

Do carry on. :corn:

[MannyIsGod]

As much as people like to focus on larger aspects of energy, currently the small things like this are the fastest and easiest way to cut down consumption. Its like the air in tires situation. People see the energy crisis as something we will solve with nuclear reactors or solar farms or gigantic wind turbines but making sure your home and vehicle are energy efficient and goes a long ass way in reducing your waste.

[boutons_deux]

yep, Manny, the fastest and quickest was to "provide" 100Bs barrels of oil is conservation, not by high-risk drilling 3+ miles down or all over the Arctic.

Of course, the carbon-extractors/refiners will make sure they run civilization rear/into resource depletion where their payoffs will be in the $10Ts.

[Wild Cobra]

yep, Manny, the fastest and quickest was to "provide" 100Bs barrels of oil is conservation, not by high-risk drilling 3+ miles down or all over the Arctic.

Of course, the carbon-extractors/refiners will make sure they run civilization rear/into resource depletion where their payoffs will be in the $10Ts.
Always the naysayer for progress.

I swear. You are the only Amish I know of with a computer.

[TeyshaBlue]

Always the naysayer for progress.

I swear. You are the only Amish I know of with a computer.

Ok...thats fucking funny. :lol

[boutons_deux]

"progress" is the carbon industries corrupting public policy and politicians to run the world into resource depletion?

[Winehole23]

In the next decade, a large percentage of America’s 37 million streetlights will be equipped with light-emitting diodes, or LEDs, and other kinds of solid-state lighting. Once again, energy-saving is the driving force. “We’re still at the front end of the wave,” says Mark S. Rea, the director of the Lighting Research Center at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, “but LEDs are inevitable as a replacement technology.” He predicts that LEDs, which are already 10 to 20 percent more energy-efficient than high-pressure sodium lights, will have a 40 percent advantage within a year or two.http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-light-fantastic/8545/

[Wild Cobra]

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/07/the-light-fantastic/8545/
I can imagine the cost of street lighting. Corporations making a good efficient light source will see profits rise. If we knew who that would be, I'd say buy their stock.

[RandomGuy]

The Battle of the Bulb: How an obscure lightbulb law became a Tea Party rallying cry


H
ouse GOP leaders are ginning up excitement for Tuesday's high-wattage vote to roll back lightbulb efficiency standards—or, as Rep. Joe Barton, R-Texas, likes to call it, the "Save the Lightbulb" bill.

The bill, and the rallying cry of "Save the Lightbulb!" have become unlikely hallmarks of the tea party movement, touted by presidential candidate Rep. Michele Bachmann and talk show hosts Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck. Tea party conservatives have targeted an obscure lightbulb efficiency provision tucked into a broad 2007 energy law as symbolic of what they call government overregulation. They passionately decry the law as a "ban" on the familiar incandescent lightbulbs that Americans have used for most of the last century.

...

They are more expensive than the old bulbs but last longer and have the net effect of saving consumers money, according to the Energy Department, which estimates that the bulb law will save Americans $6 billion annually in energy costs.

...

At the time it was introduced, the legislation was championed by Democratic and Republican leaders alike. The original 2007 lightbulb efficiency language was co-sponsored by Rep. Fred Upton, R-Mich., and then-House Speaker Dennis Hastert, Ill. It passed easily through the House Energy and Commerce Committee and was added as an amendment to a bill that passed the Senate by a vote of 86-8, the House by a vote of 314-100, and was signed into law by President George W. Bush.

So how did Republicans get from there to here on the lightbulb law?

The answer has very little to do with energy policy, and everything to do with tea party politics.

Barton, the bill's sponsor, turned his attention to the lightbulb law last fall, when he found himself pitted in a bitter contest with Upton for chairmanship of the powerful House Energy and Commerce Committee. The rivalry played out in the weeks after the November elections, when Republicans were giddy with excitement over their tea party-fueled takeover of the House.

The conservative Barton, who has declared that he was "tea party before tea party was cool", rode that wave in his campaign against Upton, digging up pieces of his opponent's record that he believed would show that Upton was too moderate to hold a prominent leadership post. Among them: Upton's sponsorship of the lightbulb standards


...

All of that alarmed manufacturers, who had begun producing the new bulbs, and feared the rollback of the standards would undermine their investments in developing energy-efficient bulbs. Bulb-maker Philips began an aggressive lobbying campaign, meeting with lawmakers and staffers on Capitol Hill, urging them not to roll back the lightbulb law. They brought along samples of the new bulbs, similar in appearance from the old bulbs.

"The new energy efficient incandescent bulbs look and feel just like the old lights that consumers are used to. The only real difference Americans will notice with the new lightbulbs is their lower electricity bills. Electricity savings per family will be about $100 per year," said Randy Moorhead, Vice President of Government Affairs for Philips Electronics, reprising the pitch he's been making tirelessly to GOP lawmakers.

...
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/exclusive/battle-bulb-obscure-lightbulb-law-became-tea-party-131355456.html

Just when I thought I couldn't get more cynical about congressional Republicans.

Icky.

[Wild Cobra]

When change is forced, it isn't good. The marketplace will decode for the same results they attempt to mandate. However, forcing it will meet resistance.

[RandomGuy]

I can imagine the cost of street lighting. Corporations making a good efficient light source will see profits rise. If we knew who that would be, I'd say buy their stock.

GE

They also stand to make a lot of money from wind power as well.

Their stock has been trashed because of their finance unit, so I think it is a bit cheap.

GE is just one of those companies to hold for a long, long time with a solid dividend reinvestment plan.

[RandomGuy]

When change is forced, it isn't good. The marketplace will decode for the same results they attempt to mandate. However, forcing it will meet resistance.

Resistance doesn't meen that the old way was really the right way or the most efficient way.

The chaos of the market does not always favor results that are more efficient for society.

The same can be said for leaded paint or leaded gasoline, and this whole thing reminds me of that. Overall this is undoubtedly better for the economy.

It is a no brainer, maybe that's why the tea party has such a problem with it. yeah, I went there.

[Wild Cobra]

GE is just one of those companies to hold for a long, long time with a solid dividend reinvestment plan.
Yes, they have historically been a solid investment. Bothers me that they had so much in tax credits though, they never needed it.

[coyotes_geek]

The conservative Barton, who has declared that he was "tea party before tea party was cool",

I find that hard to believe since the only time the tea party was cool was before dipshit republican politicians like Barton took it over.

[Wild Cobra]

Resistance doesn't meen that the old way was really the right way or the most efficient way.

I'm not defending the old way. I am offended by the authoritarianism.


The chaos of the market does not always favor results that are more efficient for society.

Sure it does, when the end result is equal.


The same can be said for leaded paint or leaded gasoline, and this whole thing reminds me of that. Overall this is undoubtedly better for the economy.

Does that apple taste like an orange to you by chance?


It is a no brainer, maybe that's why the tea party has such a problem with it. yeah, I went there.

The message is lost on you. I don't think I have enough time to enlighten you.

[ElNono]

GE's fiscal manipulation has little to do with tax credits. Somebody informed on their fiscal shenanigans would know that.

[RandomGuy]

I'm not defending the old way. I am offended by the authoritarianism.

Sure it does, when the end result is equal.

Does that apple taste like an orange to you by chance?

The message is lost on you. I don't think I have enough time to enlighten you.

Sure thing Cosmored. You keep telling yourself that I am just a blind shill, who isn't capable of seeing what is right in front of me.

[ElNono]

I am offended by the authoritarianism.

this from the guy that wants to force poor women to get their tubes tied :lmao

[Wild Cobra]

this from the guy that wants to force poor women to get their tubes tied :lmao
No, that's the price to get government service if they are to be irresponsible and need help. Keeps it from happening again.

Stop changing the subject. Stop spinning my intent. That effectively makes you a lair.

[ElNono]

No, that's the price to get government service if they are to be irresponsible and need help. Keeps it from happening again.

Stop changing the subject. Stop spinning my intent. That effectively makes you a lair.

Why are you going to do if I don't stop, Mr authoritarian? :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Why are you going to do if I don't stop, Mr authoritarian? :lol
Show examples of your lies. If you want to put your ass in the wind, that's your issue.

[ElNono]

Show examples of your lies. If you want to put your ass in the wind, that's your issue.

What lies? Did you say or not say you wanted poor women's tubes tied?

Simple question, yes or no.

[Wild Cobra]

What lies? Did you say or not say you wanted poor women's tubes tied?

Simple question, yes or no.
Fuck off dipshit. You want to debate this, start a new thread or revive the other one.

[ElNono]

Fuck off dipshit. You want to debate this, start a new thread or revive the other one.

Did you say or not say you wanted poor women's tubes tied?

Simple question, yes or no. Answer the question, Mr Authoritarian.

[Wild Cobra]

Did you say or not say you wanted poor women's tubes tied?

Simple question, yes or no. Answer the question, Mr Authoritarian.
Are you stupid?

Ask me in the appropriate thread. I already said that once. after already giving you an appropriate answer.

[ElNono]

Are you stupid?

Are you?

Did you say or not say you wanted poor women's tubes tied?

Simple question, yes or no. Answer the question, Mr Authoritarian.

[Drachen]

No, that's the price to get government service if they are to be irresponsible and need help. Keeps it from happening again.

Stop changing the subject. Stop spinning my intent. That effectively makes you a lair.

Well, Lightbulb legistlation is the people's way (via the government) of saying that those who continue to use incandescents are irresponsible and need help. Since it affects the cash flows of the public at large (much like government services), I would say that this is absolutely an apples to apples comparison.

It's so funny to me when someone says "I can drive a hummer since I am the one paying for the gas, YOU shouldn't care what I do" or alternatively "I should be allowed to waste as much electricity as I want, as long as I pay my bill, YOU don't need to say anything." That just shows their ignorance.


Edit: they are right, they can use their money the way they wish, but it's the second portion I find ridiculous. If you are going to foolishly throw your money away in a manner which adversely affects others, don't be surprised when those others band together to make it more difficult for you do so.

[DarrinS]

Should Hummers, Escalades, Suburbans be illegal?

[ElNono]

If Congress decides they should meet some standard they cannot meet, they shouldn't be outlawed?

[Drachen]

Should Hummers, Escalades, Suburbans be illegal?

Nope, but if efficiency regulations are passed to save responsible people from irresponsible people, and Hummers can't meet these standards, then they should not be allowed to be sold until they can meet such standards.

[Capt Bringdown]

Why is the Tea Party suddenly obsessed with light bulbs? (http://www.salon.com/news/env/energy/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/07/11/energy_saving_light_bulb_debate)

Suddenly, saving the old-fashioned 100-watt bulb -- which wastes most of the energy it consumes and costs households more in energy bills than the new model -- has become a matter of personal liberty.

[TeyshaBlue]

Nobody makes a led coffee roaster worth a shit.:depressed

[Winehole23]

Laser roasters?

[coyotes_geek]

Nobody makes a led coffee roaster worth a shit.:depressed

The government should do something about that. :)

[spursncowboys]

Why is the Tea Party suddenly obsessed with light bulbs? (http://www.salon.com/news/env/energy/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/07/11/energy_saving_light_bulb_debate)

Suddenly, saving the old-fashioned 100-watt bulb -- which wastes most of the energy it consumes and costs households more in energy bills than the new model -- has become a matter of personal liberty.
It's such a better product that the consumers have to be forced to enjoy the rewards of it. Don't forget the exception for Hollywood though.

[Winehole23]

Don't forget the exception for Hollywood though.Ladies and gentlemen, spursncowboys, a very funny man!

[Winehole23]

Don't forget to tip your waitresses and bartenders, they're workin hard for you tonight.

[Winehole23]

Nice to see you back on the board. Sup?

[boutons_deux]

Engery Star appliances and gadgets, and imposed gas mileage per fleet have been around for decades, not a peep.

[RandomGuy]

It's such a better product that the consumers have to be forced to enjoy the rewards of it. Don't forget the exception for Hollywood though.

A little bit like consumers were forced to enjoy the benefits of paint without lead in it.

The paint with lead in it spread better, and dried cleaner, and looked nicer. If I want to have lead in my house, who is it hurting?

It was a massive government overreach to ban paint with lead in it.

[RandomGuy]

This is actually a decent point. I'd like to see the calculations take into account the time value of money.

Not sure a conversion to NPV would be entirely helpful.

In all likelihood though, the price of electricity and its projected rises are more important, since it is the price of electricity that forms the most important variable, since it forms the larger cost.

Since any cost modeling use the same timeline, one would not reach any materially different conclusion, other than a small discount for the incandescant bulbs purchased years from now. Any rises in the costs of electricity due to the time value of money would cancel out when converted to NPV.

[RandomGuy]

Democrats waved new energy-efficient incandescent bulbs made in the United States and costing in the $1.50 range. "Yes, this costs a few dimes more. But let me tell you, you start saving dimes the moment you screw these into the socket," said Rep. Rush Holt, D-N.J.

Those backing the new standards say the mercury risk is negligible and say new incandescent and LED bulbs contain no mercury.

The Obama administration, in a statement released Monday, said it opposes the bill because it would repeal standards that are driving U.S. innovation, creating new manufacturing jobs and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. The White House said the bulbs will save American households nearly $6 billion in 2015 alone.

The Energy Department pointed out that energy-saving improvements in refrigerators carried out since the 1970s now save Americans $20 billion a year, or $150 a family.

http://news.yahoo.com/house-vote-ban-rules-light-bulbs-071755937.html

Why do Republicans want everybody to be poorer?

[boutons_deux]

"It was a massive government overreach to ban paint with lead in it."

Same with lead as a anti-knock gasoline additive.

There are "some who say" that the drop in crime the last couple decades could be associated with the drop in lead in humans.

Bad news is the shit they replaced lead with in gasoline ain't nice.

MMT

Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT) has been used for many years in Canada and recently in Australia to boost octane. It also helps old cars designed for leaded fuel run on unleaded fuel without need for additives to prevent valve problems.

US Federal sources state MMT is suspected to be a powerful neurotoxin and respiratory toxin,[23] and a large Canadian study concluded that MMT impairs the effectiveness of automobile emission controls and increases pollution from motor vehicles.[24]

In 1977, use of MMT was banned in the US by the Clean Air Act until the Ethyl Corporation could prove the additive would not lead to failure of new car emission-control systems. As a result of this ruling, the Ethyl Corporation began a legal battle with the EPA, presenting evidence that MMT was harmless to automobile emissions-control systems. In 1995, the US Court of Appeals ruled that the EPA had exceeded its authority, and MMT became a legal fuel additive in the US. MMT is now manufactured by the Afton Chemical Corporation division of Newmarket Corporation.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Lead

[Drachen]

Not sure a conversion to NPV would be entirely helpful.

In all likelihood though, the price of electricity and its projected rises are more important, since it is the price of electricity that forms the most important variable, since it forms the larger cost.

Since any cost modeling use the same timeline, one would not reach any materially different conclusion, other than a small discount for the incandescant bulbs purchased years from now. Any rises in the costs of electricity due to the time value of money would cancel out when converted to NPV.

I went ahead and did this. These are my assumptions, I will summarize and poke holes in my method.

Went to lowes.com for bulb prices I used 60 watts as my baseline and found the cheapest of each bulb that was on lowes.com. wattage and life was found in the description of each bulb.
Incandescent - Lowes Sylvania 8-pack 2.48: $0.31/bulb, 1000 hour life, 60 watts
CFL - Lowes Utilitech 4-pack 7.98: $1.995/bulb, 8000 hour life, 15 watts
LED - Lowes Sylvania 1-pack 39.98: $39.98/bulb, 25000 hour life, 12 watts

I assumed that each bulb was on for 1000 hours per year. I used peak charge for my cost/KwH which I think is fair because I didn't take into account any fuel surcharges. The amount I used according to RG's link and my bill was .0843/KwH. (.0668 normal + .0175 peak). I assumed an increase in electricity rates of 2%/year and an inflation rate of 3%/year. I bought 1 incandescent bulb every year, but kept the cost constant (not affected by inflation). I bought one CFL bulb after ever eighth year (not affected by inflation). I bought one LED bulb. The cost of the last CFL bulb was prorated since it would have most of its life left at the end of the 25 year span. Electricity costs were paid at the end of each year.

The answers I came up with were
NPV - Incandescent: 115.08
NPV - CFL: 32.22
NPV - LED: 61.87

The main problem (as RG pointed out) is determining an appropriate growth rate for electricity prices. The reason being, each of those three paths (incandescent, cfl, and LED) will represent exponentially different growth rates in electricity demand, and therefore different growth rates in energy prices. All other things being equal, electricity rates will increase at a much higher rate if everyone continued using Incandescents as opposed to the other two. I used 2% (avg growth rate of electricity prices has been 2.5% since 2000 Link (http://www.entergy.com/global/documents/utility/industry/EEi_rising_electricity_costs.pdf)) across all three examples even though it may look more like 3.5%/year for incandescents, 2% for CFLs, and 1.8% for LEDs (note these numbers are just an example).

By the end of year 10 the NPV of incandescents surpasses that of LEDs (obviously by the end of year one, the CFL is already cheaper).

I think that was all, but if you have a question, let me know.

[DarrinS]

Nope, but if efficiency regulations are passed to save responsible people from irresponsible people, and Hummers can't meet these standards, then they should not be allowed to be sold until they can meet such standards.


rAqPMJFaEdY

[LnGrrrR]

http://news.yahoo.com/house-vote-ban-rules-light-bulbs-071755937.html

Why do Republicans want everybody to be poorer?

Pfft only $150 a family! How many businesses went bankrupt due to these authoritarian regulations? I'm guessing that said businesses would put more than $150 into a family's pocket. [/wc]

[coyotes_geek]

The lesson to be learned here is that only republican presidents are allowed to use oppressive, authoritarian tactics to force Americans into saving money on energy costs.

[boutons_deux]

"How many businesses went bankrupt due to these authoritarian regulations"

dunno, how many?

Isn't that what the economist call "creative destruction" in a dynamic economy.

[spursncowboys]

Nice to see you back on the board. Sup?
Hey WH. Hope all is well.

[spursncowboys]

A little bit like consumers were forced to enjoy the benefits of paint without lead in it.

The paint with lead in it spread better, and dried cleaner, and looked nicer. If I want to have lead in my house, who is it hurting?

It was a massive government overreach to ban paint with lead in it.
No that is no way a good comparison. Regular light bulbs that I guarentee you are in every congressmans office lights and hollywoods make up mirrors are not harmful

[Winehole23]

Pretty good, thx. Are you back in Texas?

[ChumpDumper]

No that is no way a good comparison. Regular light bulbs that I guarentee you are in every congressmans office lights and hollywoods make up mirrors are not harmfulProve it.

[ChumpDumper]

In fact, it looks like Congress has gone a bit further than just replacing a few bulbs in their offices.

http://www.aoc.gov/aoc/magazine/Shedding-Light-on-Energy-Reduction.cfm

[Drachen]

No that is no way a good comparison. Regular light bulbs that I guarentee you are in every congressmans office lights and hollywoods make up mirrors are not harmful

I may not be able to respond to you as eloquently as ChumperDumper, but the pollution caused by extra power plants coming on line to service the extra 48 watts per bulb is pretty harmful. Additionally, 25 incandescents to 1 LED means less landfill space needed with LEDs. If I wanted to go really basic: Glass hurts.

Edit: CD's "prove it" was directed at something different than I addressed. Didn't realize that at first.

[spursncowboys]

Pretty good, thx. Are you back in Texas?
No still in Afghanistan. I got injured so they got me on the desk. Not much longer though. Less than a month of being in this utopia of advancement.

[MannyIsGod]

Sorry to hear that you've been injured. I hope its nothing serious. Glad to hear you'll be back soon. I'll feel better about calling you a dipshit republican once you're back on home soil and safe.

[coyotes_geek]

No still in Afghanistan. I got injured so they got me on the desk. Not much longer though. Less than a month of being in this utopia of advancement.

:wow

Hope it's nothing too serious. Stay safe.

And I'll +1 WH for welcoming you back to the forum.

[Winehole23]

No still in Afghanistan. I got injured so they got me on the desk. Not much longer though. Less than a month of being in this utopia of advancement.Be well, SnC.

[spursncowboys]

I may not be able to respond to you as eloquently as ChumperDumper, but the pollution caused by extra power plants coming on line to service the extra 48 watts per bulb is pretty harmful. Additionally, 25 incandescents to 1 LED means less landfill space needed with LEDs. If I wanted to go really basic: Glass hurts.

Edit: CD's "prove it" was directed at something different than I addressed. Didn't realize that at first.
You make a good point. Still though, not a directly harmful problem like lead in paint. However would that same kind of thinking halt plastic bags from being made? Glass bottles?

These power plants not coming on line are also not bringing in more well paying jobs, which would bring more money into communities which would create more service jobs.

[spursncowboys]

Thanks everyone. Yeah nothing too bad. My truck got hit with an IED and a bone from my ankle got blown off. not out of my leg or anything. but from where its supposed to be connected. they said it'll just float around there and i dont need any surgery. No one died from the blast. The new MRAPS- the Maxxpros- are build great!

[RandomGuy]

No that is no way a good comparison. Regular light bulbs that I guarentee you are in every congressmans office lights and hollywoods make up mirrors are not harmful

It causes increased electrical costs for everybody.

No different economically from a product that causes increased health care costs that must be collectively shared.

It is a very apt comparison.

If one doesn't want a "nanny state" to dictate light bulbs because people should be free to use more expensive bulbs, then the same principle applies to helmets, leaded paint, unsafe children's toys, contaminated meat, unregulated planes/buses and so forth.

All of these requirements are in place because we collectively have determined that the costs are more than we want to bear, and provide some benefit.

You might not like the fact that the economic effects and workings are the same between wasteful light bulbs and leaded paint, but it is quite logically valid.

Both have quantifiable costs and benefits. Both cost less in the long run than the benefit. That makes both good policy.

That the tea party movement is so adamantly against what is a no brainer good policy says volumes to me.

[LnGrrrR]

No still in Afghanistan. I got injured so they got me on the desk. Not much longer though. Less than a month of being in this utopia of advancement.

How much further to go before you're back home? At least past the hump?

[RandomGuy]

You make a good point. Still though, not a directly harmful problem like lead in paint. However would that same kind of thinking halt plastic bags from being made? Glass bottles?

These power plants not coming on line are also not bringing in more well paying jobs, which would bring more money into communities which would create more service jobs.

So you are saying we should allocate our capital less efficiently?

If we don't spend money on building power plants, we can spend it on other things, like repairing infrastructure, business incubators, and so forth.

You are saying here that these power plant jobs are more important than ANY other use of the money it would take to build them.

[Drachen]

You make a good point. Still though, not a directly harmful problem like lead in paint. However would that same kind of thinking halt plastic bags from being made? Glass bottles?

These power plants not coming on line are also not bringing in more well paying jobs, which would bring more money into communities which would create more service jobs.

I understand more money into communities, but at what cost? There is a reason that NIMBY is a thing and that is because pollution is not desireable, detrimental to health, and costly to deal with across many different categories (environment, health care, etc).


Thanks everyone. Yeah nothing too bad. My truck got hit with an IED and a bone from my ankle got blown off. not out of my leg or anything. but from where its supposed to be connected. they said it'll just float around there and i dont need any surgery. No one died from the blast. The new MRAPS- the Maxxpros- are build great!

Glad to hear that it wasn't worse than that. Good to hear y'all have some decent armor. Thank you for being willing to be over there.

[spursncowboys]

So you are saying we should allocate our capital less efficiently?

If we don't spend money on building power plants, we can spend it on other things, like repairing infrastructure, business incubators, and so forth.

You are saying here that these power plant jobs are more important than ANY other use of the money it would take to build them.
Can you really call government money capital? is that what 'we' meant? Also I did not say anything like that.

[spursncowboys]

I understand more money into communities, but at what cost? There is a reason that NIMBY is a thing and that is because pollution is not desireable, detrimental to health, and costly to deal with across many different categories (environment, health care, etc).



Glad to hear that it wasn't worse than that. Good to hear y'all have some decent armor. Thank you for being willing to be over there.
If it is cost efficiency we are trying for, shouldn't we try to fix the grids?

[LnGrrrR]

Thanks everyone. Yeah nothing too bad. My truck got hit with an IED and a bone from my ankle got blown off. not out of my leg or anything. but from where its supposed to be connected. they said it'll just float around there and i dont need any surgery. No one died from the blast. The new MRAPS- the Maxxpros- are build great!

Glad to hear man! I might be going somewhere in a few months... that is, if management doesn't play around with my cycle to keep me here during compliance inspection season.

[spursncowboys]

LNG: less than a month. Block leave in Sep. Thats when I'm coming back to TX.

[RandomGuy]

Can you really call government money capital? is that what 'we' meant? Also I did not say anything like that.

Capital is capital, yes.

You don't think you said that, but when you argue that power plant jobs are important to communities, especially given a choice between collectively building the power plants or madating efficiency and having us spend money on something else, you have argued that those jobs are more important.

We choose winners and losers through inaction, as well as action.

The problem here is that people who are efficient still end up having to subsidize those who aren't.

If a new power plant has to be built, it has to be built, and that cost is passed on through a utility bill in each and every watt produced.

I can't choose to only pay for all the electrical companies expenses *except* those relating to the extra power plants, and increased prices from demand, I have to pay for those along with everybody else.

This is just a way for the wasteful to force everybody else to subsidize their behavior.

[RandomGuy]

LNG: less than a month. Block leave in Sep. Thats when I'm coming back to TX.

By the by, welcome back. :toast

Always good to have somebody new to disagree with. :D

[vander]

It causes increased electrical costs for everybody.

No different economically from a product that causes increased health care costs that must be collectively shared.

It is a very apt comparison.

If one doesn't want a "nanny state" to dictate light bulbs because people should be free to use more expensive bulbs, then the same principle applies to helmets, leaded paint, unsafe children's toys, contaminated meat, unregulated planes/buses and so forth.

All of these requirements are in place because we collectively have determined that the costs are more than we want to bear, and provide some benefit.

You might not like the fact that the economic effects and workings are the same between wasteful light bulbs and leaded paint, but it is quite logically valid.

Both have quantifiable costs and benefits. Both cost less in the long run than the benefit. That makes both good policy.

That the tea party movement is so adamantly against what is a no brainer good policy says volumes to me.

hmm, seems like all the things you are comparing to light bulbs there are things that can kill people, a wasteful light bulb is nothing like any of those. and it's been a long time since any law or policy has been "collectively determined"

I don't know how people can get so bent out of shape about these energy/natural resource issues, the market can and will and is handling it. as the reserves of energy become more scarce, prices go up, and it becomes cost effective to spend $80 on a light bulb, or an extra $5000 on a car with a ton of batteries in it; and expensive, risky endeavors for innovation will also rise

and who cares if we run out of coal/oil in 100 years or 300 years, it's going to happen, and people will adapt and be just fine

it's just one big eye rolling issue

personally I want the world to run out of cheap energy sooner rather than later so I can be alive as all the innovation takes place. can't wait to see a battery technology better than lith-ion, or 1000 lb. cars that get 200 mpg, houses being build with near perfect insulation... or whatever! it's going to be exciting when the world starts to run out of oil, assuming there still is some free market capitalism somewhere on earth

I also can't wait for there to be quality LED lamps that actually outperform CFL's at lumens per watt and cost less than $80 for a 600-750 lumen flood light

[LnGrrrR]

LNG: less than a month. Block leave in Sep. Thats when I'm coming back to TX.

Milk that desk job. Makes no sense going out into the field after an injury, you won't be at 100%. Make it back to Texas so they can deploy you in another six months. :lol

[spursncowboys]

Yeah. Well allegedly I'm gonna have 18 months dwell time but we'll see. You know how the military is. So where do they have you going?

[LnGrrrR]

Yeah. Well allegedly I'm gonna have 18 months dwell time but we'll see. You know how the military is. So where do they have you going?

Don't know yet. One of our guys got popped just recently for a 365 at a FOB. Don't want to say anymore, OPSEC and all that. But the AF rotation cycle is defintely getting heavier... shorter dwell times (about 18 mos) and longer deployed times (6 mos minimum, seeing alot more 12s though).

[Wild Cobra]

Why is the Tea Party suddenly obsessed with light bulbs? (http://www.salon.com/news/env/energy/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/07/11/energy_saving_light_bulb_debate)

Suddenly, saving the old-fashioned 100-watt bulb -- which wastes most of the energy it consumes and costs households more in energy bills than the new model -- has become a matter of personal liberty.
The old 100 watt light bulb has it's uses. In some cases, it doubles as a heat source, like in chicken coops.

I am all for more energy efficient bulbs. Like I said, I just don't think people should be forced to buy something they don't want. If I had small children, I would not be buying the florescents. There are not any other affordable energy efficient ones that I know of. there is talk of the halogen, but they are expensive compared to incandescents, and not much more efficient.

[Wild Cobra]

Engery Star appliances and gadgets, and imposed gas mileage per fleet have been around for decades, not a peep.
Not true. There have been studies of how washers don't clean as well as one example.

[Wild Cobra]

A little bit like consumers were forced to enjoy the benefits of paint without lead in it.

The paint with lead in it spread better, and dried cleaner, and looked nicer. If I want to have lead in my house, who is it hurting?

It was a massive government overreach to ban paint with lead in it.
As long as you don't sell it without full disclosure, I agree.

[Wild Cobra]

Pfft only $150 a family! How many businesses went bankrupt due to these authoritarian regulations? I'm guessing that said businesses would put more than $150 into a family's pocket. [/wc]

Well, if you live in a region that needs heated most the year, the savings of electricity is even less than advertised. If you are heating with electricity to begin with, energy efficient bulbs produce less heat which is just made up for by electric heating anyway. there is effectively no savings when you are heating your house.

The full savings from energy efficient bulbs is only seen when you aren't heating your place.