Mass shooting in Orlando

[Sportcamper]

Sig Sauer MCX- WOW! Incredible & scary looking gun…Guy down the hall says they are not on the Cali banned list because they are pistol caliber….

[CosmicCowboy]

Sig Sauer MCX- WOW! Incredible & scary looking gun…Guy down the hall says they are not on the Cali banned list because they are pistol caliber….

They are modular. The caliber can be changed depending on the components selected. they can be 5.56. 9mm, .30BO, etc. depending on how they are set up.

[pgardn]

I wasn't going to mention it to the idiots yapping about the AR-15 but it was a Sig Sauer MCX. It's a pretty cool piece of modular hardware. Without going in to huge detail the gas cycle design is more like an AK-47 than an AR-15.

Was just with a friend who owns one and says they are a blast to shoot. He said they were banging targets at 300 yards with 20 round magazines. He also said he sees no use for these things besides his entertainment in the public realm. Also said it's stupidity freely selling magazines with so many rounds. A gun guy who is appalled. He also abandoned the NRA grudgingly because he is a teacher and read the NRA stance on teachers with guns.

He says responsible gun owners are a dying breed as guns enter city environs. Claims country folk are definitely the most responsible gun owners.

So what do you think about the above?

[Sportcamper]

Sig Sauer MCX- The local gun shops right now have lines of people who want to purchase AR receivers before they are on the Cali ban….I don’t think anyone out here even knows about the Sig with AK action….

[pgardn]

Sig Sauer MCX- The local gun shops right now have lines of people who want to purchase AR receivers before they are on the Cali ban….I don’t think anyone out here even knows about the Sig with AK action….

Same thing happens when they try to limit rounds. The crazies preparing for the zombie apocalypse buy em up. They are going to find huge personal armories when some of these nuts die and have an estate sale.

[SpursforSix]

Same thing happens when they try to limit rounds. The crazies preparing for the zombie apocalypse buy em up. They are going to find huge personal armories when some of these nuts die and have an estate sale.

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think it would be that hard for someone to manufacture their own high capacity clips if they were banned. Probably even be able to do it with 3D printing.

[CosmicCowboy]

Was just with a friend who owns one and says they are a blast to shoot. He said they were banging targets at 300 yards with 20 round magazines. He also said he sees no use for these things besides his entertainment in the public realm. Also said it's stupidity freely selling magazines with so many rounds. A gun guy who is appalled. He also abandoned the NRA grudgingly because he is a teacher and read the NRA stance on teachers with guns.

He says responsible gun owners are a dying breed as guns enter city environs. Claims country folk are definitely the most responsible gun owners.

So what do you think about the above?

The only gun I own now with a 20 round plus magazine is a tactical Ruger 10/22 little 22 caliber rimfire. It's my golf cart ranch gun for snakes, coyotes, etc. I do own several super accurate bolt rifles. I much prefer accuracy and extended range over magazine size.

[SpursforSix]

The only gun I own now with a 20 round plus magazine is a tactical Ruger 10/22 little 22 caliber rimfire. It's my golf cart ranch gun for snakes, coyotes, etc. I do own several super accurate bolt rifles. I much prefer accuracy and extended range over magazine size.

Well you're going to have a tough time mowing down gays with your assault Ruger.

[pgardn]

The only gun I own now with a 20 round plus magazine is a tactical Ruger 10/22 little 22 caliber rimfire. It's my golf cart ranch gun for snakes, coyotes, etc. I do own several super accurate bolt rifles. I much prefer accuracy and extended range over magazine size.

Similar to you then.

He says hunting is even a hassle now because of field dressing and cutting it up. But his family makes their own sausage etc in smoke houses. He says he enjoys sighting it in at the range and then going out to the ranch for target shoots.

But not a fan of the NRA any longer. Guess he is the oddball.

[pgardn]

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think it would be that hard for someone to manufacture their own high capacity clips if they were banned. Probably even be able to do it with 3D printing.

So it's illegal. You find the rounds in a house off to jail. No matter who makes them.

[SpursforSix]

So it's illegal. You find the rounds in a house off to jail. No matter who makes them.

find what rounds? what are you talking about?

[pgardn]

find what rounds? what are you talking about?

If you are caught with over the limit magazines... Don't matter who makes them.

[SpursforSix]

If you are caught with over the limit magazines... Don't matter who makes them.

what will finding any rounds prove?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Was just with a friend who owns one and says they are a blast to shoot. He said they were banging targets at 300 yards with 20 round magazines. He also said he sees no use for these things besides his entertainment in the public realm. Also said it's stupidity freely selling magazines with so many rounds. A gun guy who is appalled. He also abandoned the NRA grudgingly because he is a teacher and read the NRA stance on teachers with guns.

He says responsible gun owners are a dying breed as guns enter city environs. Claims country folk are definitely the most responsible gun owners.

So what do you think about the above?hmmmm

[DarrinS]

BLM snowflake hijacks Orlando vigil, smh


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge9pHidD8sc

[TheSanityAnnex]

Damn.....


The owner of a Florida gun store said Orlando nightclub shooter Omar Mateen tried to buy body armor and bulk ammunition from his store just a few weeks before the shooting but his staff turned him away. "We knew by the questions he was asking he was suspicious," Robert Abell, a co-owner of Lotus Gunworks in Jensen Beach, Florida, told ABC News.

An an alert salesperson refused to sell to Mateen, and Abell said he contacted authorities about Mateen before the massacre. The local sheriff's office said it was unaware of the incident at the gun store, and other local authorities, including the local FBI (http://hsrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTFicG1ycTRoBF9TAzIwMjM1MzgwNzUEaXRjAzEEc 2VjA3N0cmVhbV9xYQRzbGsDdGl0bGU-/RV=1/RE=1467308745/RH=aHNyZC55YWhvby5jb20-/RB=/RU=aHR0cDovL2FiY25ld3MuZ28uY29tL3RvcGljcy9uZXdzL3V zL2ZlZGVyYWwtYnVyZWF1LW9mLWludmVzdGlnYXRpb24uaHRtA A--/RS=%5EADAZVvuEeLac.M8sgMdvA93rdoQ4HQ-) office, have not responded to ABC News' requests for comment.
The FBI is aware of and is investigating Mateen's visit to Lotus, officials said.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/orlando-shooter-turned-away-different-gun-store-being-141628142--abc-news-topstories.html

[pgardn]

what will finding any rounds prove?

Magazines that hold excessive rounds for Christmas Sakes...

Now, who is on first.

[pgardn]

Damn.....


The owner of a Florida gun store said Orlando nightclub shooter Omar Mateen tried to buy body armor and bulk ammunition from his store just a few weeks before the shooting but his staff turned him away. "We knew by the questions he was asking he was suspicious," Robert Abell, a co-owner of Lotus Gunworks in Jensen Beach, Florida, told ABC News.

An an alert salesperson refused to sell to Mateen, and Abell said he contacted authorities about Mateen before the massacre. The local sheriff's office said it was unaware of the incident at the gun store, and other local authorities, including the local FBI (http://hsrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTFicG1ycTRoBF9TAzIwMjM1MzgwNzUEaXRjAzEEc 2VjA3N0cmVhbV9xYQRzbGsDdGl0bGU-/RV=1/RE=1467308745/RH=aHNyZC55YWhvby5jb20-/RB=/RU=aHR0cDovL2FiY25ld3MuZ28uY29tL3RvcGljcy9uZXdzL3V zL2ZlZGVyYWwtYnVyZWF1LW9mLWludmVzdGlnYXRpb24uaHRtA A--/RS=%5EADAZVvuEeLac.M8sgMdvA93rdoQ4HQ-) office, have not responded to ABC News' requests for comment.
The FBI is aware of and is investigating Mateen's visit to Lotus, officials said.

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/orlando-shooter-turned-away-different-gun-store-being-141628142--abc-news-topstories.html

Whoa...

[boutons_deux]

Whoa...

but the FBI is "super accurate" in nailing Hillary, stopping 9/11, and entrapping 1000s of Muslims, always shooting 50+ people dead, etc, etc, but they just can't respond to gun dealers reporting suspicious purchasers.

[pgardn]

but the FBI is "super accurate" in nailing Hillary, stopping 9/11, and entrapping 1000s of Muslims, always shooting 50+ people dead, etc, etc, but they just can't respond to gun dealers reporting suspicious purchasers.

When an individual tries to buy excessive number of rounds AND body armor, blinking lights and sirens should go off somewhere...

[TheSanityAnnex]

but the FBI is "super accurate" in nailing Hillary, stopping 9/11, and entrapping 1000s of Muslims, always shooting 50+ people dead, etc, etc, but they just can't respond to gun dealers reporting suspicious purchasers.

Yet you support denying 2nd amendment rights to those on the terror watch list composed by the "super accurate" FBI. Pick a lane.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Whoa...

Going to be very interesting here to see who dropped the ball on this.

Democrat solution is always more gun control laws when in reality if the laws on the books were actually enforced and situations like this were actually followed up on a lot of lives would be saved.

[boutons_deux]

Pastor refuses to mourn Orlando victims: ‘The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die’

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/14/pastor-refuses-to-mourn-orlando-victims-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/?wpisrc=nl_most-draw7&wpmm=1

[boutons_deux]

John McCain follows Trump’s lead: President Obama is “directly responsible” for Orlando shooting


http://www.salon.com/2016/06/16/john_mccain_follows_trumps_lead_president_obama_is _directly_responsible_for_orlando_shooting/

=================

Recent poll is not good news for John McCain, but his Trump comments have earned him still worse (http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/6/16/1539404/-Recent-poll-is-not-good-news-for-John-McCain-but-his-Trump-comments-have-earned-him-still-worse)

The good news (for people other than John McCain) is that McCain looks on track to lose.

A poll released earlier this week showed McCain trailing (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/06/13/1538185/-A-Senate-that-actually-does-stuff-is-in-our-grasp) Democrat Ann Kirkpatrick, drawing 41 percent to her 43 percent.

A lot can change between now and November, so let’s make sure that what changes is that Kirkpatrick’s lead grows.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/06/16/1539404/-Recent-poll-is-not-good-news-for-John-McCain-but-his-Trump-comments-have-earned-him-still-worse?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dailykos%2Findex+%28Daily+Kos %29

[TheSanityAnnex]

:lol Obama "ISIL is on the defense"

:lol Brennan "ISIL dangerous as ever"

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/16/politics/john-brennan-cia-isis/index.html

[boutons_deux]

McCain says he ‘misspoke’ in blaming Obama for attacks on Americans

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/06/mccain-says-he-misspoke-in-blaming-obama-for-attacks-on-americans/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

could have been a McLiar test balloon to see if he could pick up some supporters from Trash's trash.

[TheSanityAnnex]

"The problem we have—and really, the firewall we have right now, is due process. It's all due process. So we can all say, 'yeah, we want the same thing,' but how do we get there. If a person is on a terrorist watch list like the gentleman—the shooter—in Orlando, he was, twice by the FBI, we were briefed yesterday about what happened. But that man was brought in twice. They did everything they could. The FBI did everything they were supposed to do. But there was no way for them to keep him on the nix list or keep him off the gun buy list. There was no way to do that. So can't we say that if a person is under suspicion, there should be a five year period of time that we have to see if good behavior, if this person continues the same traits? Maybe we can come to that type of an agreement. But due process is what's killing us right now."
-Joe Manchin

[Splits]

The AR-15 is the most talked about gun in America.

But the AR-15's creator died before the weapon became a popular hit and his family has never spoken out.

Until now.

"Our father, Eugene Stoner, designed the AR-15 and subsequent M-16 as a military weapon to give our soldiers an advantage over the AK-47," the Stoner family told NBC News late Wednesday. "He died long before any mass shootings occurred. But, we do think he would have been horrified and sickened as anyone, if not more by these events."

The inventor's surviving children and adult grandchildren spoke exclusively to NBC News by phone and email, commenting for the first time on their family's uneasy legacy. They requested individual anonymity in order to speak freely about such a sensitive topic. They also stopped short of policy prescriptions or legal opinions.

But their comments add unprecedented context to their father's creation, shedding new light on his intentions and adding firepower to the effort to ban weapons like the AR-15. The comments could also bolster a groundbreaking new lawsuit, which argues that the weapon is a tool of war — never intended for civilians.

Eugene Stoner would have agreed, his family said.

The ex-Marine and "avid sportsman, hunter and skeet shooter" never used his invention for sport. He also never kept it around the house for personal defense. In fact, he never even owned one.

And though he made millions from the design, his family said it was all from military sales.

"After many conversations with him, we feel his intent was that he designed it as a military rifle," his family said, explaining that Stoner was "focused on making the most efficient and superior rifle possible for the military."

He designed the original AR-15 in the late 1950s, working on it in his own garage and later as the chief designer for ArmaLite, a then small company in southern California. He made it light and powerful and he fashioned a new bullet for it — a .223 caliber round capable of piercing a metal helmet at 500 yards.

The Army loved it and renamed it the M16.

But after Stoner's death in 1997, at the age of 74, a semi-automatic version of the AR-15 became a civilian bestseller, too, spawning dozens of copy-cat weapons. The National Rifle Association has taken to calling it "America's rifle."

The bullets that tore through the Pulse nightclub in Orlando were Stoner's .223 rounds, fired from a AR-15 spin off made by Sig Sauer.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Splits, good find. Prima facia it should be obvious but far too many people prefer Wayne Pierre to do their thinking for them. You can tell because they parrot him verbatim constantly.

[boutons_deux]

Orlando Club Had Armed Security

OPD statement, June 12: On June 12, 2016, just after 2 a.m., an Orlando Police Officer working extra duty at the Pulse Nightclub, located at 1912 S. Orange Ave., responded to shots fired. Our officer engaged in a gun battle with that suspect and the suspect went deeper into the club where more shots were fired. The incident then turned into a hostage situation.

Trump is free to argue that the situation might have turned out differently had more people inside the club been armed.

However, Trump’s statement that there were “no guns on the other side” is wrong.

There was at least one armed person on site, a veteran police officer working security, who shot at the suspected gunman.

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/06/orlando-club-had-armed-security/

Maybe off-duty cops need to carry automatic weapons so they can join in the fun spraying the customers.

[z0sa]

Maybe off-duty cops need to carry automatic weapons so they can join in the fun spraying the customers.

That's low, even for you Boutons.

[pgardn]

He (Eugene Stoner) also never kept it around the house for personal defense.?

He clearly was not aware that zombies, after they have devoured your family members in various rooms around the house, can be effectively massacred through drywall and such in the home very effectively by just firing while turning in circles.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Splits (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=24583), good find. Prima facia it should be obvious but far too many people prefer Wayne Pierre to do their thinking for them. You can tell because they parrot him verbatim constantly.
Good find?!?!?! :lol
That the shittiest journalism I've read in quite some time.

[TheSanityAnnex]

He (Eugene Stoner) also never kept it around the house for personal defense.?

He clearly was not aware that zombies, after they have devoured your family members in various rooms around the house, can be effectively massacred through drywall and such in the home very effectively by just firing while turning in circles.
.223 is not effective through drywall, that's why it's considered a decent home defense gun, penetration is much less than most popular hand gun rounds.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Orlando Club Had Armed Security

OPD statement, June 12: On June 12, 2016, just after 2 a.m., an Orlando Police Officer working extra duty at the Pulse Nightclub, located at 1912 S. Orange Ave., responded to shots fired. Our officer engaged in a gun battle with that suspect and the suspect went deeper into the club where more shots were fired. The incident then turned into a hostage situation.

Trump is free to argue that the situation might have turned out differently had more people inside the club been armed.

However, Trump’s statement that there were “no guns on the other side” is wrong.

There was at least one armed person on site, a veteran police officer working security, who shot at the suspected gunman.

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/06/orlando-club-had-armed-security/

Maybe off-duty cops need to carry automatic weapons so they can join in the fun spraying the customers.


Splits do YOU charge in or stay out?

[spurraider21]

oldie but a goodie... short 3 part series


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pOiOhxujsE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYbY45rHj8w


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVuspKSjfgA


:lol part 3 is exactly boutons from 1:10 - 1:45

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Good find?!?!?! :lol
That the shittiest journalism I've read in quite some time.

Direct quotes from primary sources with direct knowledge is not poor journalism, dimwit. But but but it wasn't designed for the military. . .

:lol Cements you as the clueless dumbfuck regarding the subject you mime expertise in though. Good job.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Direct quotes from primary sources with direct knowledge is not poor journalism, dimwit. But but but it wasn't designed for the military. . .

:lol Cements you as the clueless dumbfuck regarding the subject you mime expertise in though. Good job.
direct quotes from Eugene...I mean his kids...speaking for their father....rock solid journalism. Lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

direct quotes from Eugene...I mean his kids...speaking for their father....rock solid journalism. Lol

Given their father's dead, they are the best source available. We've had statements from Armalite and the late creator's family and in opposition we have your stupidity.

Maybe if you stamp your feet and wave your hands it will help.

[spurraider21]

how can you be a gay radical islamist and not understand islam at the same time?
the guy himself claimed he was islamist. why dont far-left libs show this same skepticism when somebody claims to be trans?

[boutons_deux]

All Christians are bad because some Christians are bad, like all Muslims are bad because some Muslims are bad

Westboro Baptist Church to protest at Orlando shooting victims' funerals

http://www.wfaa.com/news/nation-now/westboro-church-to-protest-at-orlando-shooting-victims-funerals/246540282

[pgardn]

.223 is not effective through drywall, that's why it's considered a decent home defense gun, penetration is much less than most popular hand gun rounds.

So it's just a caliber thing, has nothing to do with barrel length?
Im not a gun guy, but I know a bit of physics.

[CosmicCowboy]

.223 is not effective through drywall, that's why it's considered a decent home defense gun, penetration is much less than most popular hand gun rounds.

I totally disagree with this. I have shot steel flip targets with a .223 at 300 yards and it still has enough velocity and kinetic energy to punch right through 1/4" steel plate without flipping the target.

[CosmicCowboy]

So it's just a caliber thing, has nothing to do with barrel length?
Im not a gun guy, but I know a bit of physics.

It's a function of mass and velocity.

As far as barrel length, rule of thumb is the longer the barrel (out to about 20 inches) given the identical cartridge the higher the velocity because the powder has time for a more complete burn.

For example, a 9mm pistol has 383 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle, a .45 has 415 ft/#, and a 5.56(.223) has 1325 ft/lb at the muzzle because despite having a smaller mass than a .45 it is traveling much faster.

[pgardn]

It's a function of mass and velocity.

As far as barrel length, rule of thumb is the longer the barrel (out to about 20 inches) given the identical cartridge the higher the velocity because the powder has time for a more complete burn.

For example, a 9mm pistol has 383 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle, a .45 has 415 ft/#, and a 5.56(.223) has 1325 ft/lb at the muzzle because despite having a smaller mass than a >45 it is traveling much faster.


Absolutely what I was thinking. Except I'm using the ideas of impulse instead of energy. Kinetic energy is of course the best way to look at it when entering the target I would imagine. It's force X time which is impulse. So f and t both get bigger however, the force of the gas applied to the projectile must diminish as the barrel lengthens (unless the burn some how increases through time thus possibly amping up gas pressure)But you still increase the impulse (FXt) so the exit velocity should theoretically get bigger. But there comes a point of diminishing returns with barrel length. And then add in you are pushing a comparatively small mass when compared to a long distance hunting rifle for bigger game. So you get a large f on a small m and F/m = big ass acceleration (while in the barrel, after that you are done with gas pressure)

I do not know what an FXt graph would look like for this weapon with different length barrels but it would be very interesting. Your numbers up there are most likely averages and not force applied thru time which would be very difficult to keep constant. But it gives ballpark numbers.

Also air friction is going to most likely inhibit the smaller mass more but this is also highly shape dependent so again difficult.

Sorry for going on but this stuff fascinates me even though I don't own guns.

Oh, one correction. It's gotta be ft X lbs if you are talking energy, not ft/lb. / being divided by.

[pgardn]

I totally disagree with this. I have shot steel flip targets with a .223 at 300 yards and it still has enough velocity and kinetic energy to punch right through 1/4" steel plate without flipping the target.

And exactly what my friend stated. He said he would not be surprised if one projectile hit two people in that night club. He said he could see it tearing up walls therefore he did not get the home self defense part except with a tiny barrel.

Oh. This also explains why pure physics is just not good enough. You must talk to people who actually fire weapons and actually think about this stuff. There are just so many variables one must seek "data" from the experienced experimenters.

[CosmicCowboy]

Absolutely what I was thinking. Except I'm using the ideas of impulse instead of energy. Kinetic energy is of course the best way to look at it when entering the target I would imagine. It's force X time which is impulse. So f and t both get bigger however, the force of the gas applied to the projectile must diminish as the barrel lengthens (unless the burn some how increases through time thus possibly amping up gas pressure)But you still increase the impulse (FXt) so the exit velocity should theoretically get bigger. But there comes a point of diminishing returns with barrel length. And then add in you are pushing a comparatively small mass when compared to a long distance hunting rifle for bigger game. So you get a large f on a small m and F/m = big ass acceleration (while in the barrel, after that you are done with gas pressure)

I do not know what an FXt graph would look like for this weapon with different length barrels but it would be very interesting. Your numbers up there are most likely averages and not force applied thru time which would be very difficult to keep constant. But it gives ballpark numbers.

Also air friction is going to most likely inhibit the smaller mass more but this is also highly shape dependent so again difficult.

Sorry for going on but this stuff fascinates me even though I don't own guns.

Oh, one correction. It's gotta be ft X lbs if you are talking energy, not ft/lb. / being divided by.

I wasn't implying ft divided by pound, just using shorthand for foot pounds of energy

The actual formula is

E=1/2 M X V squared

v is the velocity of the bullet
m is the mass of the bullet.

[SpursforSix]

It's a function of mass and velocity.

As far as barrel length, rule of thumb is the longer the barrel (out to about 20 inches) given the identical cartridge the higher the velocity because the powder has time for a more complete burn.

For example, a 9mm pistol has 383 ft/lb of energy at the muzzle, a .45 has 415 ft/#, and a 5.56(.223) has 1325 ft/lb at the muzzle because despite having a smaller mass than a .45 it is traveling much faster.

I'm not sure your example is making your point about barrel length and power burn. I don't know the exact numbers but there is much more powder in a 223 cartridge than a 45. Unless your ultimate point was the barrel length allows you to use more powder.

[Sportcamper]

I have shot steel flip targets with a .223 at 300 yards and it still has enough velocity and kinetic energy to punch right through 1/4" steel plate without flipping the target.

I have always been a follower of Colonel Jeff Cooper who despised the .223 as a battle rifle…Then I saw those North Hollywood bank robbers hold off the LAPD with .223’s…Sort of changed my thinking…

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm not sure your example is making your point about barrel length and power burn. I don't know the exact numbers but there is much more powder in a 223 cartridge than a 45. Unless your ultimate point was the barrel length allows you to use more powder.

You missed the part about using the same cartridge with the barrel length being the only variable.

A 5.56 fired through a 10" barrel will have a lower velocity than the same 5.56 fired through a 20" barrel because of complete powder burn in the longer barrel.

[pgardn]

I wasn't implying ft divided by pound, just using shorthand for foot pounds of energy

The actual formula is

E=1/2 M X V squared

v is the velocity of the bullet
m is the mass of the bullet.

Yes.
Thats kinetic energy

Sorry. The / sign in physics is divided by... Different subjects do change symbols so that's what I thought you were writing.
You used it writing E=1/2 M X V squared One divided by 2... So I took ft/lbs to mean divided...

And F X t = change in Kinect energy (1/2 mv^2) So you go from v = 0 to v = something very big the m stays the same as long as pieces of the projectile don't come off in the barrel.

So there is the connection between our ways of looking at it.

[pgardn]

You missed the part about using the same cartridge with the barrel length being the only variable.

A 5.56 fired through a 10" barrel will have a lower velocity than the same 5.56 fired through a 20" barrel because of complete powder burn in the longer barrel.

Aha!

Another useful factoid I did not know. So the air pressure stay high, especially if the burn gets larger as the bullet moves through the barrel (I'm guessing it does not)
Good stuff.

[SpursforSix]

You missed the part about using the same cartridge with the barrel length being the only variable.

A 5.56 fired through a 10" barrel will have a lower velocity than the same 5.56 fired through a 20" barrel because of complete powder burn in the longer barrel.

No, I get that. Then it seemed like you were trying to provide an example with your 9/45/223 comparison. But since those are different calibers, it didn't really connect for me. Maybe I misunderstood.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I totally disagree with this. I have shot steel flip targets with a .223 at 300 yards and it still has enough velocity and kinetic energy to punch right through 1/4" steel plate without flipping the target.
Despite the popularity of the round, too few realize that 9mm ball ammo (http://www.guns.com/2012/01/26/can-cast-bullets-be-potent-personal-defense-rounds/) can easily punch through not just one but several interior walls. By contrast, .223 rifle ammunition (http://www.guns.com/2012/06/12/parody-song-pokes-fun-at-556-vs-223-confusion/) tends to tumble, turn (http://www.guns.com/2011/07/07/homebrew-12-gauge-slug-loads-the-punk-rock-rounds-of-handloading/) and slow down when penetrating barriers, even more than a 9mm fired from some pistols. Many shooters like to debate this point, and admittedly on the surface it doesn’t seem logical, but studies done by SWAT teams over a decade ago revealed this phenomenon to be fact and it was one of the main reasons a lot of tactical teams transitioned to M-4s/AR-15s (http://www.guns.com/reviews/colt-m4-carbine/) and gave up the H&K MP-5 SMG (http://www.guns.com/2011/09/28/heckler-and-kochs-mp5-made-in-germany-but-a-citizen-of-the-world/) in the 80s and 90s.

[Spurminator]

http://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com/

[da_suns_fan]

http://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com/

Thats fucking hilarious but so true.

Our thoughts and prayers are with you, but we wont limit highly lethal weapons to the general public because we simply dont care.

[Splits]

Home Should Not Be a War Zone (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/opinion/home-should-not-be-a-war-zone.html?ref=opinion&_r=0)

By STANLEY McCHRYSTAL
JUNE 16, 2016


A BATTLEFIELD on our soil.

That was my reaction on Sunday, like that of so many of my fellow Americans and fellow soldiers, as I began to learn about the horror that unfolded early that morning in Orlando, Fla., when a dangerous man opened fire in a nightclub with a high-powered, military-style rifle.

As Americans came together to celebrate the freedom that our great country affords and that our soldiers have given their lives to defend, 49 of them were murdered with a gun. Scores more were injured.

But that was just part of the bloodshed in our communities this past weekend, when at least 121 people across the country were fatally shot. The tragedy in Orlando wasn’t even the only mass shooting; in Roswell, N.M., a man was charged on Sunday with shooting his wife and their four children to death on Saturday. The oldest was 14; the youngest was 3.


In 2014, 33,599 Americans died from a gunshot wound. From 2001 to 2010, 119,246 Americans were murdered with guns, 18 times all American combat deaths in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.


That is a national crisis. And as a combat veteran and proud American, I believe we need a national response to the gun violence that threatens so many of our communities.


Those of us who served in the military were trained in the effective and safe use of firearms. We were taught about the responsibility that comes with carrying a gun. As combat infantrymen and special operators, we received thousands of hours of firearms training.


In combat operations in places like Afghanistan, we often confronted the specter of dangerous people with powerful weapons who were a threat to their community and to our soldiers. Our aim was to quickly determine who in that community was a legitimate actor who could be trusted with a firearm and who was not.

Today, some of our politicians and the people who back them seem to promote a culture of gun ownership that does not conform with what I learned in the military.

Here at home, many of us are alarmed by the carnage. We are alarmed by loopholes that let felons and domestic abusers get hold of guns without a background check. We are alarmed that a known or suspected terrorist can go to a federally licensed firearms dealer where background checks are conducted, pass that background check, legally purchase a firearm and walk out the door.

Now veterans are speaking out. Last Friday, two days before the tragedy in Orlando, a new initiative, the Veterans Coalition for Common Sense, led by the Navy combat veteran Capt. Mark Kelly and his wife, the former Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, was announced. Those of us serving on its advisory committee come from every branch of our military and virtually every rank. We are trained in the use of firearms, and many of us have served in combat. And we all think our country must do more to save lives from being cut short by gun violence.

As this national crisis continues to rage, I ask my fellow veterans — patriots who have worn the uniform, who took an oath to protect our Constitution and the Second Amendment, who served this great country — to add your voice to this growing call for change. America needs you.

In my life as a soldier and citizen, I have seen time and time again that inaction has dire consequences. In this case, one consequence of our leaders’ inaction is that felons, domestic abusers and suspected terrorists have easy access to firearms.

Some opponents of closing these gaps in our laws will continue to argue that dangerous people will obtain guns in our country no matter what, and therefore that taking steps to make it harder for them is fruitless. That is both poor logic and poor leadership.

Just as something as complex as a combat operation in a war zone meant that we could not eliminate every enemy combatant or prevent every American casualty, we cannot prevent every dangerous person from getting a gun, and we cannot prevent every gun tragedy. But wouldn’t preventing many of them be worth it? I believe it would.

We Americans are not a uniquely bloodthirsty people. We do not have more violent video games or movies than other countries. We do not have more dangerously mentally ill individuals than other countries. We are not unique in facing down the threat of global terrorism and active shooters.

But we have uniquely high rates of gun deaths and injuries that make us stand out in the worst of ways. Our communities should not feel like war zones. Our leaders can start by doing more to keep guns out of the hands of those who cannot be trusted to handle them responsibly. That must be our mission.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal is a former commander of U.S. and international forces in Afghanistan and of the Joint Special Operations Command, and a member of the Veterans Coalition for Common Sense.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Splits
i see no ideas or solutions from that article. What do you suggest? Specifically, what would have prevented Orlando?

[Splits]

Tons of good ideas out there, Boots had a great list a few months ago. But specifically to prevent mass shootings:

Outlaw all military-style weapons. Buyback all on the streets and make owning one a crime

Limit annual ammo purchases unless you're at a gun range where you can buy and use all you want but can't leave with them. Perhaps be able to rent military-style weapons at a range so gun nuts can have their "fun"

Require gun training similar to drivers Ed for anyone wanting a gun. Handgun, shotgun, hunting rifle all require different training courses much like motorcycle, car, 18-wheeler, etc. Paid for by the gun nut

National gun registry so feds know exactly who owns what weapons. Paid for by taxes on guns.

Background check is more than just filling out a questionairre and running criminal history. Must include psychiatric evaluation, repeated every 2 years. LE in-person interviews of family, friends, co-workers, neighbors. Paid for by the gun nut.

If a gun nut shoots up a place, whoever was involved in passing their background check is criminally liable.

Basically make it very expensive and cumbersome to be a gun nut.

[Splits]

Another good idea would be to fulfill the 2nd amendment militia requirement. In order to own a gun you must be active duty, national guard, reserve, etc. If you want to be a gun nut have some skin in the game.

[pgardn]

Despite the popularity of the round, too few realize that 9mm ball ammo (http://www.guns.com/2012/01/26/can-cast-bullets-be-potent-personal-defense-rounds/) can easily punch through not just one but several interior walls. By contrast, .223 rifle ammunition (http://www.guns.com/2012/06/12/parody-song-pokes-fun-at-556-vs-223-confusion/) tends to tumble, turn (http://www.guns.com/2011/07/07/homebrew-12-gauge-slug-loads-the-punk-rock-rounds-of-handloading/) and slow down when penetrating barriers, even more than a 9mm fired from some pistols. Many shooters like to debate this point, and admittedly on the surface it doesn’t seem logical, but studies done by SWAT teams over a decade ago revealed this phenomenon to be fact and it was one of the main reasons a lot of tactical teams transitioned to M-4s/AR-15s (http://www.guns.com/reviews/colt-m4-carbine/) and gave up the H&K MP-5 SMG (http://www.guns.com/2011/09/28/heckler-and-kochs-mp5-made-in-germany-but-a-citizen-of-the-world/) in the 80s and 90s.

Ok

So I personally watched his .223 go through a GD metal plate and at least a foot diameter tree.

Something is amiss. And he said the projectile does indeed tumble. So I can see why there is a debate.

[z0sa]

Another good idea would be to fulfill the 2nd amendment militia requirement. In order to own a gun you must be active duty, national guard, reserve, etc. If you want to be a gun nut have some skin in the game.

I think this alone would be a great deterrent against some of your... uh... "less"crazy folks. People want to believe they are a part of something bigger. And generally speaking, they dont want to bring shame to their communities. Turn every gun owner into a reserve member of their state militia, using the militias themselves as a means to incorporate some of the suggestions mentioned, like passing a training course and submitting to a detailed background check. This would be par for the course for joining an armed forces branch anyway.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Well worth the watch. DHS whistleblower Phillip Haney

8cxHqwyr2-0

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ok

So I personally watched his .223 go through a GD metal plate and at least a foot diameter tree.

Something is amiss. And he said the projectile does indeed tumble. So I can see why there is a debate.

It's inconsistent because of the rifling, or lack thereof from a carbine, combined with the ease of changing the kinetics of a low mass object. It was designed to penetrate a metal helmet and it does that just fine. the fact that it tumbles in odd directions as opposed to rifling through past body armor is a desired effect when the stuff behind it is human flesh. It shreds people.

This conversation has done a good job demonstrating that TSA doesn't know wtf they're talking about.

[CosmicCowboy]

The US Army changed from the 7.62 to 5.56 for two main reasons

1) lower felt recoil made it easier to train Vietnam draftees to shoot where they weren't afraid to pull the trigger
2) the 5.56 had equal accuracy to the 7.62 and with FMJ ammo was less lethal. The theory was that killing an enemy soldier took one guy off the battlefield and wounding an enemy took three guys off the battlefield...one that was hit and two to carry him.

That being said a .62 grain bullet traveling at 3200 fps is nothing to fuck with. I damn sure don't want to be shot with one. I shoot a 22-250 a lot that throws the same size bullet at 3800 fps and the impact with a conventional expansive bullet is freaking devastating.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Ok

So I personally watched his .223 go through a GD metal plate and at least a foot diameter tree.

Something is amiss. And he said the projectile does indeed tumble. So I can see why there is a debate.your friend was shooting full metal jacket. Would not be the same round your friend would use if it was loaded for self defense or in your hypothetical mass shooting incident.

The Overpenetration Question
Overpenetration has always been a concern when discussing the use of firearms in a dwelling, so the knee-jerk reaction has been to immediately eliminate a rifle as a suitable option. However, in the last several decades there have been exhaustive studies about what pistol and shotgun projectiles do when fired indoors, and those results are very interesting (and not in a good way).


Proponents of the pistol for home defense like to think that because it’s “just” a pistol round, overpenetration really won’t be an issue. Such is not the case. Drywall sheets and hollow-core doors (which are what you’ll find in the majority of homes and apartments in this country) offer almost no resistance to bullets. Unless brick or cinderblock was used somewhere in your construction, any pistol cartridge powerful enough to be thought of as suitable for self-defense is likely to fly completely through every wall in your abode. In fact, hollowpoint pistol bullets tend to plug up as they go through drywall, turning them—in effect—into round-nose bullets. Round buckshot pellets are just as bad, and shotgun slugs are worse.


These same concerns about overpenetration are what kept people away from considering the rifle for home defense. For years many people just assumed they knew what would happen to a rifle bullet fired indoors—it would go through every wall available and then exit the building. While armor-piercing and FMJ ammunition is specifically designed to do this, extensive testing has shown that light, extremely fast-moving .223 projectiles (including FMJs) often fragment when they hit a barrier as soft as thin plywood.


When talking about the effectiveness of rifle bullets on people, ballisticians and armchair commandos throw around a number of technical terms, such as “hydrostatic shock” and “temporary wound cavity.” The simple fact is that the more of its energy a bullet can dump into a target, the more effective it will be. Full metal jacketed ammunition has a tendency to zip right through, and while the resulting wound might cause the person to bleed to death, until they do there’s a good chance they’ll go on posing a threat. Projectiles designed either to stop in the body or cause a great deal of tissue upset work much better at immediately stopping the threat. That’s why police talk about the “stopping power” of a cartridge rather than its “killing power.”


When using rifle ammunition with projectiles designed specifically for personal defense, such as Winchester’s new .223 PDX1 loadings, fragmentation is assured. Bullets striking an intruder will separate into smaller, lighter pieces and—most likely—not overpenetrate and exit the body as errant shrapnel. All of the energy generated will then be transferred into the target. If the round fired is a miss and hits only wood or drywall, the projectile will break apart into smaller pieces—while these are still dangerous, their potential for injury, or penetration of additional walls, is much less than a pistol bullet or buckshot pellet. Many SWAT teams are using M4-type rifles, and overpenetration, when your teammate may be on the other side of the wall, is a major concern.






Read more: http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/#ixzz4C403iGii

[boutons_deux]

Because of Westboro, ALL Christians are bad

'Angels' to block Westboro Baptist Church's protest at Orlando memorial


http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Angels-to-block-Westboro-Baptist-Church-s-8303872.php

[CosmicCowboy]

Because of Westboro, ALL Christians are bad

'Angels' to block Westboro Baptist Church's protest at Orlando memorial


http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Angels-to-block-Westboro-Baptist-Church-s-8303872.php

Because of Boutons, all liberals are batshit crazy.

makes as much sense.

[pgardn]

While armor-piercing and FMJ ammunition is specifically designed to do this, extensive testing has shown that light, extremely fast-moving .223 projectiles (including FMJs) often fragment when they hit a barrier as soft as thin plywood.


When talking about the effectiveness of rifle bullets on people, ballisticians and armchair commandos throw around a number of technical terms, such as “hydrostatic shock” and “temporary wound cavity.” The simple fact is that the more of its energy a bullet can dump into a target, the more effective it will be. Full metal jacketed ammunition has a tendency to zip right through, and while the resulting wound might cause the person to bleed to death,

Yeah we talked about this. The word often is a problem. These rounds coming out so fast apparently do unpredictable things. The tumbling behavior is interesting even in a rifled barrel. I'm thinking the front of the bullet hitting a huge air pressure difference first compared to the back of the bullet might cause the torque thus tumbling on occasion.

And we have often discussed the distribution of Kinetic energy into very different type material from projectiles. Because he is a hunter and know some physics as well. Armor piercing rounds don't distribute ke well in human bodies. Unless you line up people, gut to back and observe where the bullet stops somewhere down the line of flesh, repeat.

Still seems like the wrong weapon for home defense. Seems like a great weapon for spray and kill that can be purchased. Punching off shots with a quick finger, magazines with many rounds available, ideal weapon for the bar. And reasonable easy to get in with.

[pgardn]

Because of Boutons, all liberals are batshit crazy.

makes as much sense.

Boots is the left's answer to Nixon at his worst moments.
Paranoia, out to get ya, hole up and fling shit.

[boutons_deux]

Boots is the left's answer to Nixon at his worst moments.
Paranoia, out to get ya, hole up and fling shit.

As always, your takes suck donkey dick.

[mingus]

Tons of good ideas out there, Boots had a great list a few months ago. But specifically to prevent mass shootings:

Outlaw all military-style weapons. Buyback all on the streets and make owning one a crime

Limit annual ammo purchases unless you're at a gun range where you can buy and use all you want but can't leave with them. Perhaps be able to rent military-style weapons at a range so gun nuts can have their "fun"

Require gun training similar to drivers Ed for anyone wanting a gun. Handgun, shotgun, hunting rifle all require different training courses much like motorcycle, car, 18-wheeler, etc. Paid for by the gun nut

National gun registry so feds know exactly who owns what weapons. Paid for by taxes on guns.

Background check is more than just filling out a questionairre and running criminal history. Must include psychiatric evaluation, repeated every 2 years. LE in-person interviews of family, friends, co-workers, neighbors. Paid for by the gun nut.

If a gun nut shoots up a place, whoever was involved in passing their background check is criminally liable.

Basically make it very expensive and cumbersome to be a gun nut.

I agree with some of these ideas. There's definitely common ground.

But, IMO, the most important thing that can be done is for people in this country to take their damn eyes off their phone all day and report suspicious people. This guy claimed he was connected to terrorist groups to his co-workers at one point... and a lot other pyscopaths (terrorist or not) that commit these atrocities usually leave a trail, but they're not dealt with due to negligence.

In in this particular case, the gun shop owners called authorities, but they didn't have any information on him. Why not follow his ass outside & get his tags?

People need to be educated on how to deal with this sort of shit.

We're focused on gun control, and that's fine it needs to be a focus IMO, but I wish politicians would also talk about that. But there's nothing political about it so they don't & won't.

[spurraider21]

If a gun nut shoots up a place, whoever was involved in passing their background check is criminally liable.

I can get behind everything on the list besides this. It's dumb to hold somebody criminally liable when the charge is essentially "not having a crystal ball that sees the future." If the seller dutifully performs every background check/requirement/formality, the buyer passes everything 100%, then after the fact goes nuts and does something illegal... It's irresponsible to have the seller criminally liable.

Now if they find that the seller wasn't diligent or intentionally bypassed checks just to make a sale, different story.


Another good idea would be to fulfill the 2nd amendment militia requirement. In order to own a gun you must be active duty, national guard, reserve, etc. If you want to be a gun nut have some skin in the game.
This one is a good idea but the Supreme Court will have work to do, since scalia took a big wet shit on the first clause of the 2nd amendment in DC vs Heller where he essentially called the militia thing a suggestion but not a limitation

[boutons_deux]

Fort Worth pastor calls Orlando shooting victims ‘the scum of the earth’

A Fort Worth pastor is defending a church leader in Sacramento, Calif., who said he was upset that more people hadn’t died in the Orlando gay club shooting (http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2016/06/mass-shooting-reported-at-orlando-nightclub-hostage-situation-feared.html/).

Donnie Romero of Stedfast Baptist Church in Fort Worth told his congregation that he agreed “100 percent” with the pastor in California.


“These 50 sodomites are all perverts and pedophiles, and they’re the scum of the earth,” Romero said in an animated sermon posted to YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqW1MsAQ_nA) on Thursday.

“And the earth is a little bit better place now.”

Romero joined a controversy sparked in California after pastor Roger Jimenez of Verity Baptist Church praised the Orlando massacre, saying the tragedy was that there hadn’t been more victims.

http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2016/06/fort-worth-pastor-calls-orlando-shooting-victims-the-scum-of-the-earth.html/

[tbdog]

I feel really bad for America. I have family there. You guys are shooting each other and the majority of you are just don't want to get rid of your number 1 issue.

[boutons_deux]

I feel really bad for America. I have family there. You guys are shooting each other and the majority of you are just don't want to get rid of your number 1 issue.

thanks, but the "mass murders" are not the real gun violence problem, are only a tiny part of the 10K gun homicides per year, every year.

BigGun corrupts corruptible legislative whores, makes govt policy for its own profits, duping, conning gun fellator assholes with a perversion of the 2nd Amendment, and slaughters many 1000s year after year as the $100Ms roll in reliably.

Gun violence, gun maiming, gun death is as American and unchallengeable as Apple Pie. yawn.

[boutons_deux]

http://www.truthdig.com/images/made/images/cartoonuploads/[email protected]

[CosmicCowboy]

thanks, but the "mass murders" are not the real gun violence problem, are only a tiny part of the 10K gun homicides per year, every year.

BigGun corrupts corruptible legislative whores, makes govt policy for its own profits, duping, conning gun fellator assholes with a perversion of the 2nd Amendment, and slaughters many 1000s year after year as the $100Ms roll in reliably.

Gun violence, gun maiming, gun death is as American and unchallengeable as Apple Pie. yawn.

Boo is right. The majority of gun homicides are criminals shooting criminals.

[pgardn]

Boo is right. The majority of gun homicides are criminals shooting criminals.

It would be nice if we could really say this with good numbers. We don't have any good studies because the NRA does not want any numbers out from the people who are experts at this stuff. The US does not properly fund the real studies that need to be done by scientists and statisticians.

[SpursforSix]

It would be nice if we could really say this with good numbers. We don't have any good studies because the NRA does not want any numbers out from the people who are experts at this stuff. The US does not properly fund the real studies that need to be done by scientists and statisticians.

56% of gun deaths occur with guns that were illegally transported from Mexico.

[CosmicCowboy]

It would be nice if we could really say this with good numbers. We don't have any good studies because the NRA does not want any numbers out from the people who are experts at this stuff. The US does not properly fund the real studies that need to be done by scientists and statisticians.

Here is one that you should find interesting.

http://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityHRC/reports/2011Reportv6.pdf

In this detailed study, 76% of the victims had prior criminal records and 90% of the suspects had prior criminal records.

[pgardn]

56% of gun deaths occur with guns that were illegally transported from Mexico.

Thats not a number I have confidence in as the people collecting and analyzing the data are NOT the experts. I have much more faith in the number of cancer deaths in the US caused by specific cancers etc... The reason why we continually go back and forth about studies on this site is because they are not done by experts. Epidemiologists should be handling this stuff. They can at least state how accurate their study is with confidence numbers.

Does your number above come with a degree of confidence?

[pgardn]

Here is one that you should find interesting.

http://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityHRC/reports/2011Reportv6.pdf

Statistics on degree of confidence?

Did people that come into the hospital claiming they shot themselves accidentally at 3 in the morning really checked out for this claim. The numbers on black homocides would be much higher possibly which would make you even more willing to put up the numbers. I could go on and on with this. We don't have near as good numbers as we could have. Police departments are supposed to be experts at serving and protecting. Let's give them some help in getting and reporting good numbers. Let's let hospitals learn to read gunshot wounds. Like doctors and hospitals do with diseased patients. Let's let the experts have access to government information on guns. And no, epidemiologists don't get full access. We have a structure in place for getting more accurate assessments, but we won't fund them or even let them see data. This is why boots and the gun guys will never agree on good numbers. They don't exist in any quantity and many times, quality.

[boutons_deux]

Boo is right.

superfluous comment

[pgardn]

I think all concerned are more comfortable with studies that confirm political agendas than with the actual truth which might even enable us to say gun ownership in these areas appear to have a high correlation with very low gun related crime. But some don't want to hear anything of worth. Mainly the NRA.

[Spurminator]

Here is one that you should find interesting.

http://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityHRC/reports/2011Reportv6.pdf

In this detailed study, 76% of the victims had prior criminal records and 90% of the suspects had prior criminal records.


Fuck them then, right?

[boutons_deux]

With 300M+ guns floating around, with even law enforcement unable to retain control of their guns successfully (1000s lost every year, guess who pays for new ones?), anybody in USA can obtain almost any kind of gun if they try hard enough.

Gun regulations are totally ineffective in the above nightmare. hey, BigGun makes big profits, that's ALL that counts.

[CosmicCowboy]

Statistics on degree of confidence?

Did people that come into the hospital claiming they shot themselves accidentally at 3 in the morning really checked out for this claim. The numbers on black homocides would be much higher possibly which would make you even more willing to put up the numbers. I could go on and on with this. We don't have near as good numbers as we could have. Police departments are supposed to be experts at serving and protecting. Let's give them some help in getting and reporting good numbers. Let's let hospitals learn to read gunshot wounds. Like doctors and hospitals do with diseased patients. Let's let the experts have access to government information on guns. And no, epidemiologists don't get full access. We have a structure in place for getting more accurate assessments, but we won't fund them or even let them see data. This is why boots and the gun guys will never agree on good numbers. They don't exist in any quantity and many times, quality.

Did you read it all? It looked like it was very detailed and objective study of a major metropolitan area.

Now if you want to deny the provided information because it doesn't fit your pre-existing opinion, that's on you.

[SpursforSix]

Thats not a number I have confidence in as the people collecting and analyzing the data are NOT the experts. I have much more faith in the number of cancer deaths in the US caused by specific cancers etc... The reason why we continually go back and forth about studies on this site is because they are not done by experts. Epidemiologists should be handling this stuff. They can at least state how accurate their study is with confidence numbers.

Does your number above come with a degree of confidence?

I came up with the number myself.

[CosmicCowboy]

Fuck them then, right?

Basically.

What new law do you propose that will keep criminals from killing each other? By definition these are people that are already predisposed to ignore or break laws.

[Spurminator]

Basically.

What new law do you propose that will keep criminals from killing each other? By definition these are people that are already predisposed to ignore or break laws.

I reject the idea that a history of varying degrees of crime makes someone's murder justified.

[spurraider21]

Basically.

What new law do you propose that will keep criminals from killing each other? By definition these are people that are already predisposed to ignore or break laws.
Why do we have laws of criminals will break them anyway. Why do you lock your doors if criminals are gna smash through your window anyway

[CosmicCowboy]

I reject the idea that a history of varying degrees of crime makes someone's murder justified.

Criminals doing biz with criminals.

Maybe you could counsel them not to shoot each other? Loan them your psychology 101 textbook?

[Spurminator]

Criminals doing biz with criminals.

That's not what the report says. All it states is that 76% of victims had a prior arrest. So some kid gets murdered in a robbery, but fuck him because he got arrested once for pot possession?


Maybe you could counsel them not to shoot each other? Loan them your psychology 101 textbook?

Maybe it shouldn't be so easy for them to shoot each other.

[CosmicCowboy]

Maybe it shouldn't be so easy for them to shoot each other.

Damn right! Say...why don't we make it against the law for them to shoot each other?

[Spurminator]

Damn right! Say...why don't we make it against the law for them to shoot each other?

I guess there's nothing else we could possibly do, you're right. Legislating the means by which someone would acquire a tool to shoot someone is just too hard. It would be like legislating body-alcohol content and access to alcohol instead of just making illegal to kill someone while driving drunk. Can you imagine?

[CosmicCowboy]

I guess there's nothing else we could possibly do, you're right. Legislating the means by which someone would acquire a tool to shoot someone is just too hard. It would be like legislating body-alcohol content and access to alcohol instead of just making illegal to kill someone while driving drunk. Can you imagine?

It's already against the law for criminals to buy guns.

In case you haven't seen the pattern yet, criminals don't give a fuck what laws you pass.

[baseline bum]

Boo is right. The majority of gun homicides are criminals shooting criminals.

Sometimes it's criminals shooting at criminals and hitting innocents though. My friend's wife was a victim of this while walking with their 9 year old son to the store. :depressed

[CosmicCowboy]

Sometimes it's criminals shooting at criminals and hitting innocents though. My friend's wife was a victim of this while walking with their 9 year old son to the store. :depressed

Absolutely no argument that sometimes it's criminals shooting innocents but the majority of gun crimes are criminal on criminal.

[Spurminator]

It's already against the law for criminals to buy guns.

In case you haven't seen the pattern yet, criminals don't give a fuck what laws you pass.

In case you haven't seen the pattern yet, we still have laws despite the fact they can be broken by criminals, but such laws typically lead to a reduction in those crimes.

You're playing the typical NRA talking point monkey that bases his argument on the point that banning all guns won't eliminate 100% of murders, so therefore all gun legislation is moot. I'm not suggesting we ban guns or that we can eliminate murder.

[CosmicCowboy]

In case you haven't seen the pattern yet, we still have laws despite the fact they can be broken by criminals, but such laws typically lead to a reduction in those crimes.

You're playing the typical NRA talking point monkey that bases his argument on the point that banning all guns won't eliminate 100% of murders, so therefore all gun legislation is moot. I'm not suggesting we ban guns or that we can eliminate murder.

So what law are you suggesting?

[Spurminator]

We can do a lot more to control access to and usage of high capacity weapons, for one thing.

Also, the terror watch list restriction should be a no-brainer.

Eliminate Gun Show exceptions.

Register all gun owners.

[pgardn]

Did you read it all? It looked like it was very detailed and objective study of a major metropolitan area.

Now if you want to deny the provided information because it doesn't fit your pre-existing opinion, that's on you.

Yep.

I have no opinion on those numbers whatsoever and the numbers don't surprise me one bit.
Does this mean it could not have been done better by more capable people so we would not be constantly going back and forth on numbers? Plus It's a fairly dry study. There are many more interesting questions.

You and SA vs. boots and others constantly disagreeing over numbers... Let the people who do these studies for all kinds of public health numbers have a go...? No way, NRA won't have it. People who know how to do proper studies are all liberal gun control advocates I guess.

[Spurminator]

Also, the terror watch list restriction should be a no-brainer.


And note, I have HUGE problems with the Terror Watch List but I believe we should deal with those issues directly, and hey, maybe something like this will cause GOP loyalists to care a little bit more about the suppression of rights based on questionable suspicion.

[spurraider21]

Sometimes it's criminals shooting at criminals and hitting innocents though. My friend's wife was a victim of this while walking with their 9 year old son to the store. :depressed
Jaywalkers are criminals

[Aztecfan03]

We can do a lot more to control access to and usage of high capacity weapons, for one thing.

Also, the terror watch list restriction should be a no-brainer.

Eliminate Gun Show exceptions.

Register all gun owners.
If it's as screwed up as the no-fly list, it needs to be fixed first.

[Winehole23]

you can't deny rights based on pure suspicion. the so-called terror list loophole is bunk because the terror watch list is bunk.

there aren't 1 million terrorists in the USA.

[Winehole23]

same for for the no fly list. certain erosion of liberties with no demonstrable gain in security.

[Winehole23]

pure opportunism on the part of the Dems. same goes for focusing on so-called assault weapons. they're not frequently used in mass killings: handguns are.

[Winehole23]

doing something just to say we did something this time, is pure bs.

[CosmicCowboy]

Holy Shit! WH and I agree. :lol

[Winehole23]

optics are bad, but Republicans got this one right.

[Winehole23]

wish they would've cared so much for liberty when they instituted a no-fly list and a terrorist watch list.

[Winehole23]

Dems too, for that matter, but 9/11 turned them into quivering jelly too.

[HI-FI]

damn, i agree with Winehole as well though i have before. was Cornyn's bill any better or more bullshit?

also, not sure if this true but I heard they lost contact with the shooter's wife. if true, how in the fuck is this possible? :lol the guy was already on their radar, feds dropped the ball, then they lost track of his wife?

[Spurminator]

If it's as screwed up as the no-fly list, it needs to be fixed first.

It needs to be fixed, but I don't know if "first" is realistic until people actually feel the impact.

[pgardn]

pure opportunism on the part of the Dems. same goes for focusing on so-called assault weapons. they're not frequently used in mass killings: handguns are.

Neither are nuclear weapons, but there is a reason why they are regulated.
Should we take NH3N03 off the watch closely list Winehole, it's paperwork for farmers?

[Winehole23]

not arguing for a regulation free environment, just saying this remedy is dubious. it wouldn't have worked for the case that prompted it.

[Winehole23]

are you cool with denying rights to citizens based on mere suspicion?

[Winehole23]

what does due process mean to you, pgardn?

[Winehole23]

damn, i agree with Winehole as well though i have before. was Cornyn's bill any better or more bullshit?more bullshit. Cornyn's made of it.

[spurraider21]

the terror watch list/no fly list bans are stupid. its just a way to score political points and say "look, we did something" even though it will have a minimal effect on reducing gun deaths and mass shootings

we need more sweeping reforms than this

[pgardn]

Neither are nuclear weapons, but there is a reason why they are regulated.
Should we take NH3N03 off the watch closely list Winehole, it's paperwork for farmers?

Notice my post did not concern people lists.

It concerns weapons that can be used to kill large numbers of humans very quickly. And monitoring the buying and selling of bomb material. It's common sense. Nothing to do with airplane lists for firearms.

[Spurminator]

same goes for focusing on so-called assault weapons. they're not frequently used in mass killings: handguns are.

I think it's time to stop lumping shootings like Sandy Hook and Orlando under the same "Mass Killing" umbrella as gang warfare where two or more people are killed.

I have no problem with focusing on preventing massacres of innocents like these using weapons that the vast majority of people should never need to own.

[boutons_deux]

Tearful Gun Manufacturers Thankful They All Made It Out Of Massacre Safely

WASHINGTON—Expressing their immense relief at their good fortune, the nation’s gun manufacturers tearfully told reporters Tuesday they were thankful to have made it out of the Orlando massacre safely.

“It’s truly a miracle that all of us got through this okay,” said visibly distraught Colt’s Manufacturing CEO Dennis Veilleux, who frequently choked up while voicing his gratitude that U.S. firearms producers were now free from the danger posed by the mass shooting.

“There was a point back there where I honestly feared the worst, and I had no idea if [Smith & Wesson CEO] James [Debney], [Bushmaster CEO] George [Kollitides], and everyone else would be all right. Now that this nightmare’s over, all I can do is thank God for keeping us out of harm’s way.”

The gun manufacturers went on to praise the NRA for the courage and grit they displayed in quickly responding to such a traumatic crisis.

http://www.theonion.com/article/tearful-gun-manufacturers-thankful-they-all-made-i-53133 (http://www.theonion.com/article/tearful-gun-manufacturers-thankful-they-all-made-i-53133)

[Aztecfan03]

Tearful Gun Manufacturers Thankful They All Made It Out Of Massacre Safely

WASHINGTON—Expressing their immense relief at their good fortune, the nation’s gun manufacturers tearfully told reporters Tuesday they were thankful to have made it out of the Orlando massacre safely.

“It’s truly a miracle that all of us got through this okay,” said visibly distraught Colt’s Manufacturing CEO Dennis Veilleux, who frequently choked up while voicing his gratitude that U.S. firearms producers were now free from the danger posed by the mass shooting.

“There was a point back there where I honestly feared the worst, and I had no idea if [Smith & Wesson CEO] James [Debney], [Bushmaster CEO] George [Kollitides], and everyone else would be all right. Now that this nightmare’s over, all I can do is thank God for keeping us out of harm’s way.”

The gun manufacturers went on to praise the NRA for the courage and grit they displayed in quickly responding to such a traumatic crisis.

http://www.theonion.com/article/tearful-gun-manufacturers-thankful-they-all-made-i-53133 (http://www.theonion.com/article/tearful-gun-manufacturers-thankful-they-all-made-i-53133)




of course you put the link in the smallest font possible and make it blend in with the background.

[Winehole23]

I think it's time to stop lumping shootings like Sandy Hook and Orlando under the same "Mass Killing" umbrella as gang warfare where two or more people are killed.

I have no problem with focusing on preventing massacres of innocents like these using weapons that the vast majority of people should never need to own.like, how?

[Winehole23]

what does due process mean to you, pgardn?

[Spurminator]

like, how?

Like limiting access and use of weapons that make it easy to kill dozens of people before anything can be done about it.

[ElNono]

the terror watch list/no fly list are stupid

fify

[Winehole23]

Like limiting access and use of weapons that make it easy to kill dozens of people before anything can be done about it.how are existing regs inadequate?

[Winehole23]

are you cool with denying citizens their rights without due process based on mere suspicion?

[Spurminator]

how are existing regs inadequate?

They allow people to own, for recreational use, weapons that make it easy to kill dozens of people before anything can be done about it.

[Winehole23]

They allow people to own, for recreational use, weapons that make it easy to kill dozens of people before anything can be done about it.seems to me the stronger case is to be made for limiting access to handguns, which in the aggregate are far more dangerous, but ok: what would reasonable limitations on semi-automatic weapons look like?

[Spurminator]

seems to me the stronger case is to be made for limiting access to handguns, which in the aggregate are far more dangerous, but ok: what would reasonable limitations on semi-automatic weapons look like?

I think it's easier to make the argument that handguns are necessary for self defense due to their portability but I'm certainly open to figuring out how to reduce their presence on the streets. For now, I'm content to focus on preventing the larger-scale shootings.

Ideally, I would like to see semi-automatic weapons limited to rental at gun ranges and for hunting. Ownership should be banned. If that's not reasonable then let's just start with requiring federal registration and closing the gun show loophole. Hell, I'd even be willing to open up sales across state lines if they're federally registered.

While we're at it, repeal the Dickey Amendment.

Here's how problem solving works: You agree on an objective, then you develop the tactics and steps to achieve that objective. We can't do anything to prevent further massacres like this because we can't even agree to pursue this simple objective (or even fund studies that could help prioritize or develop the tactics to do so) because the NRA has congress by the balls.

[Winehole23]

that's very well put

[TeyshaBlue]

The gunshow loophole seems to be the most egregious and readily addressable. Start there.

[pgardn]

Winehole:

NH3NO3 does not need due process, it's fertilizer, but can be used for bombs and is followed closely when people other than farmers etc buy it in large quantities. This is common sense. Actually most farmers have switched fertilizers.

I said nothing about using lists to keep people from flying because the list that is faulty and done with little investigation or care, and the people have no chance to explain. I think people who buy large amounts of materials used to make bombs should be asked what they are doing with all this Ammonium Nitrate. Is there anything wrong with this?

Its too too easy for a single nutty person to kill large numbers of people quickly. So we follow the chemical. If you buy unusual amounts someone will eventually question you.

[TheSanityAnnex]

They allow people to own, for recreational use, weapons that make it easy to kill dozens of people before anything can be done about it.

What percentage of gun homicides each year are committed with these semi auto rifles? What type of firearm did the Virginia Tech shooter use?

[TheSanityAnnex]

The gunshow loophole seems to be the most egregious and readily addressable. Start there.

Go to your next local gun show, try and buy a gun without having to pass a background check, report back.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Go to your next local gun show, try and buy a gun without having to pass a background check, report back.

California and other states have expanded their gun laws to include gun shows. He lives in Texas where those laws don't exist. For someone who likes to yap about gun control laws you are pretty ignorant.

[TheSanityAnnex]

California and other states have expanded their gun laws to include gun shows. He lives in Texas where those laws don't exist. For someone who likes to yap about gun control laws you are pretty ignorant.
I don't care what state you live in, take your faggot ass to a gun show and try and purchase a gun without a background check, report back.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't care what state you live in, take your faggot ass to a gun show and try and purchase a gun without a background check, report back.

Already been done. Bought my Beretta that way. Now fuck off.

[Spurminator]

What percentage of gun homicides each year are committed with these semi auto rifles? What type of firearm did the Virginia Tech shooter use?

I already addressed focusing on large scale mass shootings vs. every gun homicide.

I think you know what the VT shooter used, and you know what the Newtown, Aurora, San Bernardino and Orlando shooters used as well.

[Clipper Nation]

FBI investigators so far have not turned up persuasive evidence that Orlando gunman Omar Mateen was gay or pursuing gay relationships, according to two government officials familiar with the investigation.

The FBI began looking into that possibility after media reports last week quoted men as saying that Omar Mateen had reached out to them on gay dating apps and had frequented the gay nightclub where the June 12 massacre took place. One man claimed to be Mateen's gay lover in an interview with Univision that aired this week, while another recalled Mateen as a regular at the Pulse club who tried to pick up men.

http://bigstory.ap.org/3393d3b1376b48c1bf13df8824792913

[TheSanityAnnex]

Already been done. Bought my Beretta that way. Now fuck off.
State, name of gun show, model of Beretta, and price you paid.

[spurraider21]

lol fuzzy goes to gun shows?

[TheSanityAnnex]

I already addressed focusing on large scale mass shootings vs. every gun homicide.

I think you know what the VT shooter used, and you know what the Newtown, Aurora, San Bernardino and Orlando shooters used as well.

Why focus on large scale mass shootings when their occurrence is extremely rare and deaths caused by them are less than 1% of all total gun homicides? Why push for another assault weapons ban when the last one was proven to not do a damn thing? Why not as a country focus on where the majority of gun homicides occur and attack the root causes.

[Spurminator]

Why focus on large scale mass shootings when their occurrence is extremely rare and deaths caused by them are less than 1% of all total gun homicides? Why push for another assault weapons ban when the last one was proven to not do a damn thing? Why not as a country focus on where the majority of gun homicides occur and attack the root causes.

This is what I'm talking about with agreeing on an objective. Anytime someone suggests an area of gun violence can be prevented, it is said that we should focus on a different area. Or no area at all.

Large scale mass shootings are low hanging fruit. While they may not make up a large percentage of overall gun deaths, the victims in those instances are almost always completely random and completely innocent. And they're not nearly rare enough. Start there. Doing something about it doesn't require a whole lot of sacrifice or compromise compared to preventing deaths caused by more commonly-owned (and more reasonably-owned) guns.

[Spurminator]

Funny also how we don't hear how rare these shootings are when we're talking about keeping Syrian immigrants out of the country though.

[TheSanityAnnex]

This is what I'm talking about with agreeing on an objective. Anytime someone suggests an area of gun violence can be prevented, it is said that we should focus on a different area. Or no area at all.

Large scale mass shootings are low hanging fruit. While they may not make up a large percentage of overall gun deaths, the victims in those instances are almost always completely random and completely innocent. And they're not nearly rare enough. Start there. Doing something about it doesn't require a whole lot of sacrifice or compromise compared to preventing deaths caused by more commonly-owned (and more reasonably-owned) guns.
It's the wrong objective to focus on.

Banning the AR15 will not stop mass shootings, see Virginia Tech. CA toughest gun laws, bullet buttons, etc will not stop mass shootings, see San Bernardino. Multiple background checks and yearly psych evals will not stop mass shootings, see Orlando.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

State, name of gun show, model of Beretta, and price you paid.

irrelevant.

[Spurminator]

It's the wrong objective to focus on.

Banning the AR15 will not stop mass shootings, see Virginia Tech. CA toughest gun laws, bullet buttons, etc will not stop mass shootings, see San Bernardino. Multiple background checks and yearly psych evals will not stop mass shootings, see Orlando.

Like I expected, the classic deflection of "If you can't stop them all you shouldn't try." Bullshit.

Intoxication limits will not stop drunk driving accidents. But they give potential drunk drivers an additional obstacle.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

lol fuzzy goes to gun shows?

Yup and I own several guns too including a WW2 BAR. I'm not worried that they are going to take my guns away either.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Yup and I own several guns too including a WW2 BAR. I'm not worried that they are going to take my guns away either.
Why did you avoid having a NICS run when you purchased?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Like I expected, the classic deflection of "If you can't stop them all you shouldn't try." Bullshit.

Intoxication limits will not stop drunk driving accidents. But they give potential drunk drivers an additional obstacle.
There were already checks in place to stop all of the above mentioned, and in the case of Orlando multiple checks yearly for his certs. He passed gun controls wet dream of checks and wasn't stopped.

Mass shootings won't stop with your proposals, nor will they be any less lethal, see Virginia Tech and a couple of handguns.

Im just trying to figure out how you place the importance of stopping the rare mass shooting with a rifle over the daily shootings with handguns, which are far more prevalent and destructive to human life.

[TheSanityAnnex]

This is what I'm talking about with agreeing on an objective. Anytime someone suggests an area of gun violence can be prevented, it is said that we should focus on a different area. Or no area at all.

Large scale mass shootings are low hanging fruit. While they may not make up a large percentage of overall gun deaths, the victims in those instances are almost always completely random and completely innocent. And they're not nearly rare enough. Start there. Doing something about it doesn't require a whole lot of sacrifice or compromise compared to preventing deaths caused by more commonly-owned (and more reasonably-owned) guns.
The AR15 is the most popular rifle in the US, probably the most commonly owned rifle now too. You'd think there'd be an uptick in murders with them no?

http://knowledgeglue.com/20-years-of-fbi-data-assault-rifles-pose-little-threat-to-public-safety/


And here is a look at Chicago this weekend, one more added since I just copied and pasted this link
http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/map-chicago-weekend-shooting-tracker-for-june-24-27/

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Why did you avoid having a NICS run when you purchased?

I didn't look at as avoiding anything. We did fill out registration paperwork and submitted it.

You going to take ownership of being wrong in the context of the argument or continue to try and change the subject?

[TheSanityAnnex]

I didn't look at as avoiding anything. We did fill out registration paperwork and submitted it.

You going to take ownership of being wrong in the context of the argument or continue to try and change the subject?
What registration paperwork and submitted to whom? Be specific, what form?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What registration paperwork and submitted to whom? Be specific, what form?

Irrelevant.

Intellectual cowardice was indeed your choice.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Irrelevant.

Intellectual cowardice was indeed your choice.
Indeed relevant after proclaiming you purchased a Beretta at a gun show with no background check. So, what registration paperwork and submitted to whom? Be specific, what form?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Indeed relevant after proclaiming you purchased a Beretta at a gun show with no background check. So, what registration paperwork and submitted to whom? Be specific, what form?

Remains irrelevant no matter how much you repeat yourself like an idiot. Try some critical thinking. You need the practice.

[Trill Clinton]

you can purchase guns from private sellers at gun shows. they don't require background checks.

[Spurminator]

There were already checks in place to stop all of the above mentioned, and in the case of Orlando multiple checks yearly for his certs. He passed gun controls wet dream of checks and wasn't stopped.

Mass shootings won't stop with your proposals, nor will they be any less lethal, see Virginia Tech and a couple of handguns.

Im just trying to figure out how you place the importance of stopping the rare mass shooting with a rifle over the daily shootings with handguns, which are far more prevalent and destructive to human life.

There obviously weren't enough checks because he ended up acquiring a weapon that allowed him to easily kill 49 people. The fact that VT happened doesn't prove or guarantee that the same death toll would have happened in Orlando if Omar Mateen had not been able to own his MCX.

It's not about importance, it's about where we can realistically start to curb gun violence. If you feel handguns should be the priority, I have no problem with that at all.

So what do you suggest we do about handgun violence?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Remains irrelevant no matter how much you repeat yourself like an idiot. Try some critical thinking. You need the practice.
When discussing the "gun show loophole" and how you "used" it it is completely relevant to what registration paperwork you filled out and to whom you submitted it, as you claimed.

[TheSanityAnnex]

you can purchase guns from private sellers at gun shows. they don't require background checks.
% of private sellers not requiring background checks at gun shows?

[TheSanityAnnex]

There obviously weren't enough checks because he ended up acquiring a weapon that allowed him to easily kill 49 people. The fact that VT happened doesn't prove or guarantee that the same death toll would have happened in Orlando if Omar Mateen had not been able to own his MCX.

It's not about importance, it's about where we can realistically start to curb gun violence. If you feel handguns should be the priority, I have no problem with that at all.

So what do you suggest we do about handgun violence?

You start to realistically curb gun violence at its source, banning a semi auto rifle that is responsible for less than 1% of all gun murders is not the source. I'll get back to you on an interesting study regarding how to curb gun violence ( handguns/inner city) when I'm not on my phone. Some interesting methods that have been proven to work, lots of time/effort/willing people though

[CosmicCowboy]

% of private sellers not requiring background checks at gun shows?

aisle and parking lot sellers. About 1% maybe

he probably can't even tell you what color the "registration" paper was.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

When discussing the "gun show loophole" and how you "used" it it is completely relevant to what registration paperwork you filled out and to whom you submitted it, as you claimed.

That's not what I said and repeating yourself like an idiot isn't going to make it relevant.

[spankadelphia]

Are we still talking about guns?:lol

He and his family should not have been in the country to begin with. They are as American as I am Somalian.

"B-b-b-but muh proposition nation!"

:downspin:

[Winehole23]

anyone born in the US is a US citizen, end of story.

[spankadelphia]

:downspin:

Social engineers are responsible for this mess. But they will never take responsibility. Ever.

Doesn't mean they will never be held accountable... just don't expect to hear it from them until they're pissing their pants at the foot of the gallows.

[Clipper Nation]

Are we still talking about guns?:lol

He and his family should not have been in the country to begin with. They are as American as I am Somalian.

"B-b-b-but muh proposition nation!"

:downspin:
:cry "But, but, det magic American soil will make them stop hating us!" :cry

[Winehole23]

https://sharethesafety.org/

[FuzzyLumpkins]

https://sharethesafety.org/

Drum up demand and manipulate government all at the same time!

[spurtech09]

https://youtu.be/gQ96KHoYt6s

Ex muslim says Isis is in America....Repent forgive for your sins.....Turn to Jesus Christ

[spurraider21]

^ :lol

[boutons_deux]

Gun store raffles AR-15 for Orlando victims
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2016/0630/Gun-store-raffles-AR-15-for-Orlando-victims

[Harry Callahan]

I'm more interested in how the BAR from ww2 was acquired by the poster.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm more interested in how the BAR from ww2 was acquired by the poster.

Same way my Luger was. From a family member being in England and France from 1942 to the end of the war.

[TeyshaBlue]

I've got a buddy that inherited a large number of WW II arms just that way.

[Harry Callahan]

Same way my Luger was. From a family member being in England and France from 1942 to the end of the war.
Got it. The Luger would be a lot easier than the BAR. Did family member have to register the BAR in 1968 with LBJ's legislation or was there some other mechanism for the war bringbacks at the end of the war. Seems like a BAR would still be the property of the US government in 1945.

[ducks]

Another attack these are getting more common

[Chris]

The US Gov has revealed that the Pulse Night Club shooters father Omar Mateen’s was an FBI informant for 11 years! He tried to transfer $50k-$100 overseas for an attack against the Pakistani Gov. Noor Salman’s lawyers are seeking to dismiss the trial based on this.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZOYT0uVoAAMy_C.jpg

[baseline bum]

I've got a buddy that inherited a large number of WW II arms just that way.

I inherited an old foot; it was in a boot.

[Chris]

lol "not a terrorist"


978365389632688128

[Chris]

https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/1252369367402070016?s=19

[ChumpDumper]

https://twitter.com/Cernovich/status/1252369367402070016?s=19That's not what the article says.