Kawhi's offensive game is "antiquated."

[midnightpulp]

I don't like the fact that Jordan-esque midpost/midrange play is obsolete in favor of the shitty brand of basketball Harden, et al plays, but it is what it is. If you're a perimeter player, the game you need to have today is dribble-drive penetration combined with being an off-the-dribble threat from deep. Kawhi is just slightly above average in both areas.

The data has spoken. Shots from the post are about the worst shot in basketball now, and Kawhi takes the most and hardest shots from the post out of any NBA player.

Grim business.

[140]

Stick to being "pulled back in" by porker :lol

[jag]

We've known this for a long time. He molded his game off of Kobe's midrange game and footwork.

These are things we shit on Harden, Kobe, etc for...

[Benoit]

he didnt know what to do when he saw Matt Barnes on the other team lmao

[FkLA]

You're making a habit out of basing things off one/a handful of games. That antiquated game has looked just fine against GS in the past. Bad game today, nothing more. Plus he's continuing to see double teams.

[Benoit]

Autist tried to model his game from the 2nd best player in history and closest thing to MJ

Problem is that he doesnt have Mamba's natural basketball instincts and iq

[midnightpulp]

We've known this for a long time. He molded his game off of Kobe's midrange game and footwork.

These are things we shit on Harden, Kobe, etc for...

The worst model. That game just doesn't work today. Good for filling up the PPG column, but it doesn't pressure defenses like it once did.

[still.focused]

Its not antiquated
Its actually productive &rather dominant
Rarely is there a night where he doesnt have that advantage on the block
For whatever reason the Spurs wont milk it
And as of late hes been making moves trying to facilitate others as opposed to scoring
He needs to just take the shots
Take the pick and go
Id take a good shot by a great player over a great shot by a mediocre player every trip
And for Gods sake stop jackin up those bad 3s

[Darius Bieber]

No. Teams have figured out his offense. It's pretty one dimensional. He'll never be an MVP player.

[RD2191]

Lol, OP is the biggest faggot on this site.

[100%duncan]

His 3 is off. He has no confidence shooting it anymore. His game is one-dimensional when his 3 is not hitting, if it is, he can get his easily.

[Arcadian]

I love his style. Carrying on Timmy's legacy with the Beautiful Post Game.

[KDKSpurs24]

I kind of just realized something.. Kawhi hasn't really had a single season where he has had to do this much for this many games in his career. Not making an excuse for him because he didn't play well. But I think he's getting tired legs. It's time to start resting him up for the playoffs. Some people might want to call me out for this but I really think we can't say this is right or wrong. We just have to see if rest will help him or not because it's time to do it.

[Chinook]

As I said, and have been saying for a long time, Kawhiso is a terrible basis for an offense. It hurts them on both ends unless the shots go in at a high rate. Fortunately, they usually do. But without a working three-point shot, he just doesn't have anything to counter a team bottling his drives up, and between him and Pop, there's nothing they're doing to counter it.

[gambit1990]

Stick to being "pulled back in" by porker :lol

Lol, OP is the biggest faggot on this site.

[midnightpulp]

You're making a habit out of basing things off one/a handful of games. That antiquated game has looked just fine against GS in the past. Bad game today, nothing more. Plus he's continuing to see double teams.

What's Kawhi primary method of attack?

"Um, mid range and post!"

What's the least efficient shot in basketball?

"Um, mid range jumpers."

Which shot has been shown to have a comparatively low PPS compared to other shot types?

"Um, shots from the post."

I don't care about double teams. Penetration of the Harden type or off-the-dribble 3 point shooting pressure defenses A LOT more.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

If he had another all star on the team like a Lillard or Chris Paul to take some pressure off having to do all the play making then maybe he'd do alot better against the warriors who threw everything at him.

[RD2191]

As I said, and have been saying for a long time, Kawhiso is a terrible basis for an offense. It hurts them on both ends unless the shots go in at a high rate. Fortunately, they usually do. But without a working three-point shot, he just doesn't have anything to counter a team bottling his drives up, and between him and Pop, there's nothing they're doing to counter it.

He's surrounded by shit, you're acting as if he's surrounded by knock down shooters.

[RD2191]

What's Kawhi primary method of attack?

"Um, mid range and post!"

What's the least efficient shot in basketball?

"Um, mid range jumpers."

Which shot has been shown to have a comparatively low PPS compared to other shot types?

"Um, shots from the post."

I don't care about double teams. Penetration of the Harden type or off-the-dribble 3 point shooting pressure defenses A LOT more.

And how many titles does harden ball have? I'll wait..

[100%duncan]

He's surrounded by shit, you're acting as if he's surrounded by knock down shooters.

Inb4 this team without kawhi is a great team

[Chinook]

He's surrounded by shit, you're acting as if he's surrounded by knock down shooters.

He's not surrounded by bad players. He's surrounded by somewhat inconsistent players who don't get to play in rhythm nowadays.

[FkLA]

What's Kawhi primary method of attack?

"Um, mid range and post!"

What's the least efficient shot in basketball?

"Um, mid range jumpers."

Which shot has been show to have a comparatively low PPS compared to other shot types?

"Um, shots from the post."

I don't care about double teams. Penetration of the Harden type or off-the-dribble 3 point shooting pressure defenses A LOT more.

I couldnt care less if the midrange is inefficient for the rest of the league. It isn't for Kawhi. One game doesnt change that. Would it be nice if he had all-world vision and plamaking like Harden? Sure but that doesn't diminish his greatness on offense.

[RD2191]

He's not surrounded by bad players. He's surrounded by somewhat inconsistent players who don't get to play in rhythm nowadays.

Crofl. His center and pg had 2 points combined tonight. LMA is a soft faggot and Green has 5 bad games for every good one. Come on man, just stop it.

[spurraider21]

its impossible for fans to accept that kawhi had a bad game by his standards :lol

[Chinook]

Crofl. His center and pg had 2 points combined tonight. LMA is a soft faggot and Green has 5 bad games for every good one. Come on man, just stop it.

Both Green and LMA outplayed Kawhi. The team lost the lead exactly because they went to Kawhi to close the first quarter. It didn't make any sense. Yes Parker didn't play well, but he only used six possessions, so who cares? Dedmon was fine. There's no way to spin this game other than Kawhiso ground the offense to a halt, and they never got back into rhythm.

[DMC]

I don't like the fact that Jordan-esque midpost/midrange play is obsolete in favor of the shitty brand of basketball Harden, et al plays, but it is what it is. If you're a perimeter player, the game you need to have today is dribble-drive penetration combined with being an off-the-dribble threat from deep. Kawhi is just slightly above average in both areas.

The data has spoken. Shots from the post are about the worst shot in basketball now, and Kawhi takes the most and hardest shots from the post out of any NBA player.

Grim business.

UTSA thinks he's more of an offensive threat than Klay Thompson though, who can do both of what you mentioned.

[DMC]

I couldnt care less if the midrange is inefficient for the rest of the league. It isn't for Kawhi. One game doesnt change that. Would it be nice if he had all-world vision and plamaking like Harden? Sure but that doesn't diminish his greatness on offense.

*slurp*

[Keepin' it real]

His game wasn't antiquated vs. Houston.

[Chinook]

its impossible for fans to accept that kawhi had a bad game by his standards :lol

He also had an objectively bad game. He scored 19 points on 28 possessions, a ppp of .68. That's horrible no matter who you are. Him shooting bad is one thing, but he kept shooting, completely ignoring other players. It felt exactly like the LAC series.

[140]

And how many titles does harden ball have? I'll wait..
:wow

[RD2191]

Both Green and LMA outplayed Kawhi. The team lost the lead exactly because they went to Kawhi to close the first quarter. It didn't make any sense. Yes Parker didn't play well, but he only used six possessions, so who cares? Dedmon was fine. There's no way to spin this game other than Kawhiso ground the offense to a halt, and they never got back into rhythm.

So you're basing your entire theory off of 1 game? :lmao you're delusional man, I can't even take you seriously TBH

[Darius Bieber]

So you're basing your entire theory off of 1 game? :lmao you're delusional man, I can't even take you seriously TBH

My niqqa Rob going in hard tbh

[DMC]

its impossible for fans to accept that kawhi had a bad game by his standards :lol

Sure he had a bad game by his standards, but against the GSW it is indistinguishable from being shut down. Had it happened against the Magic, easy to dismiss. KL did great against the Rockets, and he got tons of credit, so he has to get the blame when he shits the bed.

[RD2191]

Yeah, your no defense playing PG had zero points tonight but that isn't a problem. :lol

[FkLA]

UTSA thinks he's more of an offensive threat than Klay Thompson though, who can do both of what you mentioned.

:lmao

Now you've just gone full retard, fat boy.

[midnightpulp]

Kawhi fanboys are dumb.

This isn't a slight against Kawhi. The NBA has changed. Post play and midrange jumpshooting are deader than disco, proven time and time again by big data crunching to be the worst shots on the court. Why?

Obviously a 3 point attempt is worth 50% more than a two, and it's a shot that isn't 50% harder than a 2, so it makes more logical sense to shoot a 3 instead of 2. This forces teams to scramble on closeouts, opening up the floor for penetration. A post-player doesn't stress a defense like that.

"Double teams!"

Perimeter players are longer and quicker than ever before, so they can double off their man and still recover to a shooter. Compare this to penetration. Harden, Westbrook, Lebron will draw in an entire defense and send defenses scrambling to cover secondary action. Look here:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2854357/1_2.jpg

Penetration forces every defender out of position. Unless you're Shaq or prime Duncan drawing triple teams, post-play simply doesn't force as many defenders out of position as penetration.

I don't like it, but this is the modern NBA, and until the 3 point shot is made "harder," this trend will stay.

[Chinook]

So you're basing your entire theory off of 1 game? :lmao you're delusional man, I can't even take you seriously TBH

I've been saying this all year. But it's kinda pathetic that you can't admit that Kawhi took too many shots in this game, even when his supporting cast stepped up. His bad numbers are all on him/Pop. No amount of laughing can take that away.

[DMC]

:lmao

Now you've just gone full retarretard, fat boy.

Calling someone a retard then needing to edit because you misspelled retard.. that's retarded.

[ElNono]

That's not Kawhi's fault though. That's the way PATFO decided to build this team. They could've easily added another shooter instead of Joel Anthony, tbh...

EDIT: talking about the modern 3 point ball game

[Budkin]

He's surrounded by shit, you're acting as if he's surrounded by knock down shooters.

Rob on point per par

[RD2191]

I've been saying this all year. But it's kinda pathetic that you can't admit that Kawhi took too many shots in this game, even when his supporting cast stepped up. His bad numbers are all on him/Pop. No amount of laughing can take that away.

Kawhi had a shit game, I always call him out when he has a bad game. So what do you suggest we do? Who is going to run the offense? Our 2 assist starting PG? Danny "can't dribble without turning it over" green? :lmao this ain't 2014 son, we ain't running the beautiful game with the sad piles of shit starting on this team.

[DMC]

That's not Kawhi's fault though. That's the way PATFO decided to build this team. They could've easily added another shooter instead of Joel Anthony, tbh...

No one blamed Kawhi. It's not Parker's fault Pop keeps playing him even when he blows goats.

[ElNono]

No one blamed Kawhi. It's not Parker's fault Pop keeps playing him even when he blows goats.

Well, mid kinda did.

[spurraider21]

Sure he had a bad game by his standards, but against the GSW it is indistinguishable from being shut down. Had it happened against the Magic, easy to dismiss. KL did great against the Rockets, and he got tons of credit, so he has to get the blame when he shits the bed.be careful, you're starting to sound like a kawhi hating porker-tard

[RD2191]

I'm pretty sure if Pop thought we could run the beautiful game with this current roster he would've done it by now. He knows this teams strengths and weaknesses better than any of us, he's obviously doing the best that he can with the way this team is built.

[apalisoc_9]

No one blamed Kawhi. It's not Parker's fault Pop keeps playing him even when he blows goats.

You're an Idiot. Mills wasn't going to play 48 minutes.

funny, how all of a sudden the same Assholes admitting they we're wrong about Kawhi are the same people coming out of a woodwork because the team lost against the second best defensive team in the league and the best team in the world.

[DMC]

be careful, you're starting to sound like a kawhi hating porker-tard

Actually I am a Kawhi loving Porker hater. You gotta put the hot poker in the right asshole though.

[midnightpulp]

Well, mid kinda did.

How?

Show me the last time a post-centric offense won anything.

He's a great player, top 3 individual player in the league, but you can't build an offense around him. He needs a Westbrook. This isn't 1999-2010 anymore.

[Chinook]

Kawhi had a shit game, I always call him out when he has a bad game. So what do you suggest we do? Who is going to run the offense? Our 2 assist starting PG? Danny "can't dribble without turning it over" green? :lmao this ain't 2014 son, we ain't running the beautiful game with the sad piles of shit starting on this team.

I've already made my suggestion. Pop needs to run more plays. You don't need anyone to constantly freelance.

[FkLA]

Calling someone a retard then needing to edit because you misspelled retard.. that's retarded.

Simple typo. Those fat hands of yours are just ready to pounce today so you caught it before I could edit literally a few seconds later. Big deal.

Tell us some more about how Klaynus can penetrate and dish though, fat boy. :lol

[DMC]

You're an Idiot. Mills wasn't going to play 48 minutes.

funny, how all of a sudden the same Assholes admitting they we're wrong about Kawhi are the same people coming out of a woodwork because the team lost against the second best defensive team in the league and the best team in the world.

The Spurs gave up 35 points after going up by 22, at home.

At home.

[RD2191]

I've already made my suggestion. Pop needs to run more plays. You don't need anyone to constantly freelance.

Well call Pop and let him know.

[ElNono]

How?

Show me the last time a post-centric offense won anything.

He's a great player, top 3 individual player in the league, but you can't build an offense around him. He needs a Westbrook. This isn't 1999-2010 anymore.

He plays exactly from the same spots Lebron operates... Lebron is the defending champ. Kawhi had a bad game, there's no excusing that.

But, Pop could've built this team with a lot more shooters if he wanted to, but he decided to "be different"...

[DMC]

Simple typo. Those fat hands of yours are just ready to pounce today so you caught it before I could edit literally a few seconds later. Big deal.

Tell us some more about how Klaynus can penetrate and dish though, fat boy. :lol

No one said anything about dishing, UTSA educated b3aner. The comment was he needed to be able to drive (which he can) and shoot from the perimeter off the dribble (which he can). He's not the player KL is, not even close, but he's a better scorer.

[midnightpulp]

He plays exactly from the same spots Lebron operates... Lebron is the defending champ. Kawhi had a bad game, there's no excusing that.

But, Pop could've built this team with a lot more shooters if he wanted to, but he decided to "be different"...

:lol

Kawhi isn't half the penetrator Lebron is. C'mon, son. We all love Kawhi, I know, but his game is stuck in the mid-00s.

[apalisoc_9]

How?

Show me the last time a post-centric offense won anything.

He's a great player, top 3 individual player in the league, but you can't build an offense around him. He needs a Westbrook. This isn't 1999-2010 anymore.

He doesn't need a westbrook. He needs a competent PG that can drive and penetrate to take the pressure of him. The Warriors were legit throwing every defender at him and he was almost always double teamed.

The current offense as constrcuted will not work against GSW if they can't find a legit drive threat. This is why I called for Parker to be a little bit more aggressive and see if he has anything left in his game.

This is also why I strongly agree with MaNu4Tres that Murray needs burn. The spurs have legit one dual threat player, Leonard.

[FkLA]

Actually I am a Kawhi loving Porker hater. You gotta put the hot poker in the right asshole though.

the one game fat boy

[TheGreatYacht]

If he had another all star on the team like a Lillard or Chris Paul to take some pressure off having to do all the play making then maybe he'd do alot better against the warriors who threw everything at him.
Did the poopsucking mods end up closing your thread? Can't find it

[ElNono]

:lol

Kawhi isn't half the penetrator Lebron is. C'mon, son. We all love Kawhi, I know, but his game is stuck in the mid-00s.

Come on man, he's legitimately in the MVP conversation, you just called him a top 3 individual player in the league... you can't be that if you're not supremely good, no matter where you're shooting from. Good players have bad nights, and this Spurs team is really built around him. Even our #2 option is a post option that kinda likes to be along for the ride...

[DMC]

the one game fat boy

The right asshole shows up on cue.

[apalisoc_9]

I've already made my suggestion. Pop needs to run more plays. You don't need anyone to constantly freelance.

Coaches at most call 10 plays a game, 90% of the time the Players decided the Sets they call. Don't be obtuse.

Leonard is The best offensive player in the team by a margin of two Galactic Stars, He isn't going to see a decrease in touches specially against Big teams when Role players clearly lack the confidence to take more than 10 shots.

That's how the lineup is constructed and that's how pop has choosen the team to be constrcuted.

[apalisoc_9]

Did the poopsucking mods end up closing your thread? Can't find it

I made a thread about Pop a minute before the fourth and it got deleted after 30 seconds..It wasnt even a trash thread. It was a strategic critisizm.

I'm sure Floyd's thread was deleted in like a minute.

[DMC]

Come on man, he's legitimately in the MVP conversation, you just called him a top 3 individual player in the league... you can't be that if you're not supremely good, no matter where you're shooting from. Good players have bad nights, and this Spurs team is really built around him. Even our #2 option is a post option that kinda likes to be along for the ride...

I wouldn't call Russ supremely good. He's a shitty 3pt shooter, and other than his short range jumper and bowling ball down the lane attacks that get him to the line, he's not nearly the offensive threat Curry or Lebron are. Give Russ 14 shots a game and see how he does. Still, he will likely win the MVP. Doesn't defend for shit. Neither does Harden, 2nd in line for MVP. Being a great defender can compensate for being just pretty good on offense. Leonard is pretty good on offense. He has his nights, but he's not as prolific a scorer as Harden, Curry, Lebron or even Klay. He's just relied on and he's usually very efficient.

[UZER]

Kawhi was getting swarmed tonight with constant double teams and helping defense.

The warriors force others to beat them and they couldn't.

---------


Pop has 4 rings with Tony and Manu. He will never show them the door. As long as they want to be on the roster, he will continue to play them as major contributors. He is loyal to the detriment of the franchise with playing time and salary.

It's just ridiculous that Tony is still the starting point guard for this team, and Manu is still being used so much to facilitate the offense. :lol

[FkLA]

No one said anything about dishing, UTSA educated b3aner. The comment was he needed to be able to drive (which he can) and shoot from the perimeter off the dribble (which he can). He's not the player KL is, not even close, but he's a better scorer.

You think he's a much better offensive player. Don't sell your shitty take short.

Mid brought up Harden, so I'm pretty sure Klaynus doesn't fit that mold. He's worse at penetrating than Kawhi, you moronic fat boy. :lol

[Atl Spur]

no kawhi = lottery for the next 6 years!! think about that before some of you post asinine statements. We are basically playing a team that crowded the perimeter shooters and dared us to drive the ball....... only person who can effectively penetrate is ..........Kawhi Leonard!! Can't do everything people; No one person can.

[TheGreatYacht]

I made a thread about Pop a minute before the fourth and it got deleted after 30 seconds..It wasnt even a trash thread. It was a strategic critisizm.

I'm sure Floyd's thread was deleted in like a minute.
I got pinked for making a Pop thread after Game 2 against OKC last year. Mods must be crater face's nephews

[midnightpulp]

He doesn't need a westbrook. He needs a competent PG that can drive and penetrate to take the pressure of him. The Warriors were legit throwing every defender at him and he was almost always double teamed.

The current offense as constrcuted will not work against GSW if they can't find a legit drive threat. This is why I called for Parker to be a little bit more aggressive and see if he has anything left in his game.

This is also why I strongly agree with MaNu4Tres that Murray needs burn. The spurs have legit one dual threat player, Leonard.

No. This team needs more than just a decent penetrating PG. We need an all-star level penetrating PG, who is a threat for 30 points any given night, which Kawhi fanboys would probably complain about since this hypothetical guard would be taking "touches" away.

Every top team, from GS to Boston to Houston to Cleveland (I don't care we beat them by 30. :lol Regular season) has both elite penetration and 3 point volume shooting. We have neither, and Kawhi can't provide either. Yeah, he's a good 3 point shooter, but he takes good spot up 3s. All those teams have players that shoot the 3 off the dribble at a relatively high percentage.

I have slim, slim hope that the old adage of size kills in the post-season will come through for us, and I want it to happen because I hate the modern brand of basketball, but the writing seems to be on the wall.

[FkLA]

The right asshole shows up on cue.

^one game fat boy

[apalisoc_9]

Kawhi was getting swarmed tonight with constant double teams and helping defense.

The warriors force others to beat them and they couldn't.

---------


Pop has 4 rings with Tony and Manu. He will never show them the door. As long as they want to be on the roster, he will continue to play them as major contributors. He is loyal to the detriment of the franchise with playing time and salary.

It's just ridiculous that Tony is still the starting point guard for this team, and Manu is still being used so much to facilitate the offense. :lol

Exactly.

That was pretty clear.

I have no idea why this is even an issue. The warriors treated Leonard like the best offensive player in the world and it worked.

[DMC]

You think he's a much better offensive player. Don't sell your shitty take short.

Mid brought up Harden, so I'm pretty sure Klaynus doesn't fit that mild. He's worse at penetrating than Kawhi, you moronic fat boy. :lol

He didn't say anything about dishing. You don't get to make that argument then ignore it when you're smacked back across the border by the talon of the eagle.

[apalisoc_9]

I got pinked for making a Pop thread after Game 2 against OKC last year. Mods must be crater face's nephews

Wouldn't surprise me if the Spurs organization run Spurstalk now. No one seems to know who the Mods and new owners are. Suspicious.

[DMC]

^one game fat boy
That game was head to head and though Kawhi was the focal point of SA's offense, Klay wasn't the focal point of GS's offense.

[ElNono]

I wouldn't call Russ supremely good. He's a shitty 3pt shooter, and other than his short range jumper and bowling ball down the lane attacks that get him to the line, he's not nearly the offensive threat Curry or Lebron are. Give Russ 14 shots a game and see how he does. Still, he will likely win the MVP. Doesn't defend for shit. Neither does Harden, 2nd in line for MVP. Being a great defender can compensate for being just pretty good on offense. Leonard is pretty good on offense. He has his nights, but he's not as prolific a scorer as Harden, Curry, Lebron or even Klay. He's just relied on and he's usually very efficient.

Russ is a stat-padder on a non-contender, IMO. And I love Russ' motor, but I wouldn't put him at top 3 anything, despite the numbers. Kawhi is now discovering double teams, it's going to be a learning process for him, on how to affect the game when that happens. Happened to every other great player that draws them.

[FkLA]

He didn't say anything about dishing. You don't get to make that argument then ignore it when you're smacked back across the border by the talon of the eagle.

:lmao

Its called common sense. Its obvious he's talking about playmaking. Klaynus isn't better at it than Kawhi, moronic fat boy.

[apalisoc_9]

No. This team needs more than just a decent penetrating PG. We need an all-star level penetrating PG, who is a threat for 30 points any given night, which Kawhi fanboys would probably complain about since this hypothetical guard would be taking "touches" away.

Every top team, from GS to Boston to Houston to Cleveland (I don't care we beat them by 30. :lol Regular season) has both elite penetration and 3 point volume shooting. We have neither, and Kawhi can't provide either. Yeah, he's a good 3 point shooter, but he takes good spot up 3s. All those teams have players that shoot the 3 off the dribble at a relatively high percentage.

I have slim, slim hope that the old adage of size kills in the post-season will come through for us, and I want it to happen because I hate the modern brand of basketball, but the writing seems to be on the wall.

The Spurs are 61+ team with no Dual Threat players except for Leonard. This isn't a a Strategic or a School of thought mistake by the Spurs, this is just the warriors being too damn good. They've dominated the Cavs and Houston this year.

It's not a bad system. They're not going to shy away from the currently constructed team because of Golden State. The spurs have never built their organization around the idea of countering specific ball clubs. It has always been about developing the best team they can possibly develop.

So this school of thought that spurs are making a strategic mistake on offense is bunkers. They're doing the right things. The Warriors just happen to be the best team in NBA history.

The spurs as far as back as 2012 had a decent mix of bigs so dont think these frontcourt heavy team is specificly built to play against the warriros.

[RD2191]

People in here acting like supposed top 10 player of all time LeBrick James didn't have to team up with two stars in their primes to win 2 rings(should've been 1) :lol

[Arcadian]

Remember when people thought Kawhi could never be a good shooter because his hands were too big?

One does not simply tell Kawhi what he can't do!

[HarlemHeat37]

This team will never win another championship without a star PG, but the issue is deeper than just roster-building, tbh..

There's the human element that is in play with the Spurs..Parker is a Spurs' legend and Pop isn't going to bench him, as we have seen..this team isn't going anywhere until his contract is off the books, which everybody should have already accepted heading into the season:lol

They did the best job they could do to compete while keeping TP in the mix and not disrespecting him..

[DMC]

Russ is a stat-padder on a non-contender, IMO. And I love Russ' motor, but I wouldn't put him at top 3 anything, despite the numbers. Kawhi is now discovering double teams, it's going to be a learning process for him, on how to affect the game when that happens. Happened to every other great player that draws them.

But you said "legitimately in the MVP conversation". So is Russ, he'll likely win it. So if it's that MVP talk we're discussing, we have to consider that neither Harden nor Russ are even good defenders, much less Kawhi level defenders. I still think KL is the best defender in the league, and that means he doesn't have to be as good on offense as stat padder and Harden to be in the talks. Take KL down to Harden's level defensively and he's not even in the top 10 in the NBA.

[FkLA]

That game was head to head and though Kawhi was the focal point of SA's offense, Klay wasn't the focal point of GS's offense.

So we ignore all the other SA/GS games just bc it suits your argument, fat boy?

Also way to point out why comparing them is a joke, moron. Its hilarious that you continue to act like Kawhi being a first option somehow strengthens your argument. Lmk when Klaynus makes the jump to being a first option.

[RD2191]

Another league MVP and future hall of famer just joined a record game winning team to win a ring. Let's chill on the Kawhi hate TBH.

[ElNono]

But you said "legitimately in the MVP conversation". So is Russ, he'll likely win it. So if it's that MVP talk we're discussing, we have to consider that neither Harden nor Russ are even good defenders, much less Kawhi level defenders. I still think KL is the best defender in the league, and that means he doesn't have to be as good on offense as stat padder and Harden to be in the talks. Take KL down to Harden's level defensively and he's not even in the top 10 in the NBA.

Fair enough, but I don't know about that last part. A guy that's averaging 26ppg likely is a top 10 guy in the NBA today.

[DMC]

This team will never win another championship without a star PG, but the issue is deeper than just roster-building, tbh..

There's the human element that is in play with the Spurs..Parker is a Spurs' legend and Pop isn't going to bench him, as we have seen..this team isn't going anywhere until his contract is off the books, which everybody should have already accepted heading into the season:lol

They did the best job they could do to compete while keeping TP in the mix and not disrespecting him..

And the super team in GS is >> than the super team in Miami or Cleveland, and the Spurs would have to catch lightning in a bottle to beat Houston, much less the Warriors to even get to the Finals. If they could though, I like their chances against the Cavs.

[Chinook]

Below is every Kawhi-related play in the PbP from ESPN during GS' 62-38 run. I've even kept the four points Kawhi scored to cauterize the wound:



Quarter
TIME
PLAY
SCORE


1
2:43
Kawhi Leonard makes 2-foot layup (Manu Ginobili assists)
10 - 31


1
2:43
JaVale McGee shooting foul (Kawhi Leonard draws the foul)
10 - 31


1
2:43
Kawhi Leonard misses free throw 1 of 1
10 - 31


1
1:47
Kawhi Leonard defensive rebound
13 - 31


1
1:38
Kawhi Leonard misses
13 - 31


1
0:08
Kawhi Leonard misses 26-foot three point pullup jump shot
15 - 33


2
7:24
Kawhi Leonard enters the game for Kyle Anderson
29 - 41


2
7:11
Kawhi Leonard misses 26-foot three point jumper
29 - 41


2
6:46
Kawhi Leonard makes 17-foot two point shot
29 - 43


2
5:00
Kawhi Leonard traveling
38 - 45


2
3:56
Kawhi Leonard offensive rebound
43 - 45


2
2:10
LaMarcus Aldridge makes 16-foot jumper (Kawhi Leonard assists)
45 - 52


2
1:28
Kawhi Leonard misses 8-foot jumper
47 - 52


2
0:09
Kawhi Leonard lost ball turnover (Andre Iguodala steals)
54 - 57


2
0:01
Kawhi Leonard defensive rebound
54 - 57


3
11:23
Kawhi Leonard bad pass (Draymond Green steals)
54 - 57


3
10:21
Zaza Pachulia personal foul (Kawhi Leonard draws the foul)
59 - 57


3
10:11
Kawhi Leonard misses 26-foot three point jumper
59 - 57


3
9:37
Kawhi Leonard misses 25-foot three point jumper
59 - 57


3
8:56
Kawhi Leonard misses 5-foot jumper
62 - 57


3
7:13
Matt Barnes personal foul (Kawhi Leonard draws the foul)
67 - 59


3
6:09
Matt Barnes shooting foul (Kawhi Leonard draws the foul)
67 - 61


3
6:09
Kawhi Leonard makes free throw 1 of 2
67 - 62


3
6:09
Kawhi Leonard makes free throw 2 of 2
67 - 63


3
4:52
Kawhi Leonard offensive rebound
72 - 65


3
4:50
Kawhi Leonard makes 6-foot two point shot
72 - 67


3
4:20
Kawhi Leonard makes 21-foot two point shot
72 - 69


3
3:47
Kawhi Leonard bad pass (Andre Iguodala steals)
72 - 69




There's just a lot of bad in there, a lot of horrible. There's some good, but still just horrible in general

[DMC]

Fair enough, but I don't know about that last part. A guy that's averaging 26ppg likely is a top 10 guy in the NBA today.

I don't consider Isaiah Thomas to be in the top 10. He wouldn't be in mine. I'd take the Greek Freak over him any day. I'd take Chris Paul over him in fact.

[ElNono]

I mentioned it at halftime, if he couldn't hit his shots, he needed to get to the line... Curry did...

[RD2191]

Below is every Kawhi-related play in the PbP from ESPN during GS' 62-38 run. I've even kept the four points Kawhi scored to cauterize the wound:



Quarter
TIME
PLAY
SCORE


1
2:43
Kawhi Leonard makes 2-foot layup (Manu Ginobili assists)
10 - 31


1
2:43
JaVale McGee shooting foul (Kawhi Leonard draws the foul)
10 - 31


1
2:43
Kawhi Leonard misses free throw 1 of 1
10 - 31


1
1:47
Kawhi Leonard defensive rebound
13 - 31


1
1:38
Kawhi Leonard misses
13 - 31


1
0:08
Kawhi Leonard misses 26-foot three point pullup jump shot
15 - 33


2
7:24
Kawhi Leonard enters the game for Kyle Anderson
29 - 41


2
7:11
Kawhi Leonard misses 26-foot three point jumper
29 - 41


2
6:46
Kawhi Leonard makes 17-foot two point shot
29 - 43


2
5:00
Kawhi Leonard traveling
38 - 45


2
3:56
Kawhi Leonard offensive rebound
43 - 45


2
2:10
LaMarcus Aldridge makes 16-foot jumper (Kawhi Leonard assists)
45 - 52


2
1:28
Kawhi Leonard misses 8-foot jumper
47 - 52


2
0:09
Kawhi Leonard lost ball turnover (Andre Iguodala steals)
54 - 57


2
0:01
Kawhi Leonard defensive rebound
54 - 57


3
11:23
Kawhi Leonard bad pass (Draymond Green steals)
54 - 57


3
10:21
Zaza Pachulia personal foul (Kawhi Leonard draws the foul)
59 - 57


3
10:11
Kawhi Leonard misses 26-foot three point jumper
59 - 57


3
9:37
Kawhi Leonard misses 25-foot three point jumper
59 - 57


3
8:56
Kawhi Leonard misses 5-foot jumper
62 - 57


3
7:13
Matt Barnes personal foul (Kawhi Leonard draws the foul)
67 - 59


3
6:09
Matt Barnes shooting foul (Kawhi Leonard draws the foul)
67 - 61


3
6:09
Kawhi Leonard makes free throw 1 of 2
67 - 62


3
6:09
Kawhi Leonard makes free throw 2 of 2
67 - 63


3
4:52
Kawhi Leonard offensive rebound
72 - 65


3
4:50
Kawhi Leonard makes 6-foot two point shot
72 - 67


3
4:20
Kawhi Leonard makes 21-foot two point shot
72 - 69


3
3:47
Kawhi Leonard bad pass (Andre Iguodala steals)
72 - 69




There's just a lot of bad in there, a lot of horrible. There's some good, but still just horrible in general

Damn son, you really are salty. Like I said, call Pop and let him know. I'm surprised you aren't coaching in the NBA yet. TBH

[midnightpulp]

The Spurs are 61+ team with no Dual Threat players except for Leonard. This isn't a a Strategic or a School of thought mistake by the Spurs, this is just the warriors being too damn good. They've dominated the Cavs and Houston this year.

It's not a bad system. They're not going to shy away from the currently constructed team because of Golden State. The spurs have never built their organization around the idea of countering specific ball clubs. It has always been about developing the best team they can possibly develop.

So this school of thought that spurs are making a strategic mistake on offense is bunkers. They're doing the right things. The Warriors just happen to be the best team in NBA history.

The spurs as far as back as 2012 had a decent mix of bigs so dont think these frontcourt heavy team is specificly built to play against the warriros.

The game has changed massively since 2012. The title winning Miami Heat took only 16 3PA per game, which would be an inconceivable amount of attempts for a 2017 title contender. And the 2012 Spurs also had good penetration since Parker and Manu weren't turning to dust yet.

Forget about the Warriors, the 67 win Spurs couldn't even get out of the 2nd round last season. I don't care what this team does in the regular season. It's a flawed team build vis a vis what works in the NBA now. You can't beat math. 3 pointer is too mathematically effective.

[ElNono]

I don't consider Isaiah Thomas to be in the top 10. He wouldn't be in mine. I'd take the Greek Freak over him any day. I'd take Chris Paul over him in fact.

Well, if we all could choose, we all probably had a different top 10, tbh... What's Isaiah is doing is legit though, IMO. Boston is a well coached team.

[John Petrucci]

These kind of losses aren't on Pop. Kawhi is supposed to be a top 3-5 player in league. Show up.

[DMC]

:lmao

Its called common sense. Its obvious he's talking about playmaking. Klaynus isn't better at it than Kawhi, moronic fat boy.

He didn't say anything about dishing. You can infer anything that blows your skirt up, Julio.

[Chinook]

Damn son, you really are salty. Like I said, call Pop and let him know. I'm surprised you aren't coaching in the NBA yet. TBH

You gonna come back here and mop up this butt-hurt before you go? This is a thread about Kawhi/the Spurs offense as it relates to Kawhi putting the team at risk. You want to pretend this never happened, there are multiple threads to go to.

[DMC]

Well, if we all could choose, we all probably had a different top 10, tbh... What's Isaiah is doing is legit though, IMO. Boston is a well coached team.

It is legit, but it's a situational thing. It doesn't mean he's better than Chris Paul or Lillard or Irving.

[Atl Spur]

wow chinook...... would you rather he not shoot? what would be most ideal solution for you?

[RD2191]

We have the 2nd best record in the league, the only team ahead of us is a team that won a record amount of games last season and added an MVP in the off-season. But yeah, Kawhi ball is the problem. :lol

[midnightpulp]

This team will never win another championship without a star PG, but the issue is deeper than just roster-building, tbh..

There's the human element that is in play with the Spurs..Parker is a Spurs' legend and Pop isn't going to bench him, as we have seen..this team isn't going anywhere until his contract is off the books, which everybody should have already accepted heading into the season:lol

They did the best job they could do to compete while keeping TP in the mix and not disrespecting him..

Even if Parker is benched, Mills, Murray, Forbes don't provide any solutions (maybe Murray in the future). If Kawhi played like Harden but combined with his defense, this team would be a much bigger title threat. You're an analytics guy and you should know that midrange/midpost are "bad" shots.

Anyone have the tweet showing the PPS of post-play? It has one of the lowest values.

[ElNono]

It is legit, but it's a situational thing. It doesn't mean he's better than Chris Paul or Lillard or Irving.

I would take him over Lillard... heck, even Paul if we're building something now...

[DMC]

We have the 2nd best record in the league, the only team ahead of us is a team that won a record amount of games last season and added an MVP in the off-season. But yeah, Kawhi ball is the problem. :lol

Photograph that 2nd best record in the league banner and post it here when it arrives.

[Chinook]

wow chinook...... would you rather he not shoot? what would be most ideal solution for you?

Did you watch the game? If you did, I'd rather him not do what he did during that GS run. At no point during that time was there any reason to go "Kawhi, go get us a bucket" outside of the end-of-quarter plays.

[RD2191]

You gonna come back here and mop up this butt-hurt before you go? This is a thread about Kawhi/the Spurs offense as it relates to Kawhi putting the team at risk. You want to pretend this never happened, there are multiple threads to go to.

The team at risk? BAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHA. WE HAVE THE 2ND BEST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE. THE ONLY TEAM AHEAD OF US IS A TEAM WITH TWO MVPS. JUST TAKE THE L SON.

[John Petrucci]

We have the 2nd best record in the league, the only team ahead of us is a team that won a record amount of games last season and added an MVP in the off-season. But yeah, Kawhi ball is the problem. :lol

No problem with the style, but he's just gotta hit shots and not turn the ball over. These are those games he practices countless hours in gym for. You either got it or you don't.

[RD2191]

Photograph that 2nd best record in the league banner and post it here when it arrives.

I'm sorry Kawhi didn't bitch out and join the dubs like "superstar" Kevin Durant.

[apalisoc_9]

The team is at risk because they have Kawhi

:cry

[Chinook]

We have the 2nd best record in the league, the only team ahead of us is a team that won a record amount of games last season and added an MVP in the off-season. But yeah, Kawhi ball is the problem. :lol

You can literally replace "Kawhi ball" with anything.


We have the 2nd best record in the league, the only team ahead of us is a team that won a record amount of games last season and added an MVP in the off-season. But yeah, Parker starting is the problem. :lol


We have the 2nd best record in the league, the only team ahead of us is a team that won a record amount of games last season and added an MVP in the off-season. But yeah, Danny missing shots is the problem. :lol


We have the 2nd best record in the league, the only team ahead of us is a team that won a record amount of games last season and added an MVP in the off-season. But yeah, PATFO bringing back a TOSB backcourt is the problem. :lol

[midnightpulp]

Photograph that 2nd best record in the league banner and post it here when it arrives.

:lol

It's like last year never happened.

"We're a 67 win team!"

- lost in the 2nd round.

[FkLA]

He didn't say anything about dishing. You can infer anything that blows your skirt up, Julio.

lol stubborn fat boy

Not going to bother with that shit. Even if you were right, Kawhi is better at penetrating. So what's your point?

[DMC]

So we ignore all the other SA/GS games just bc it suits your argument, fat boy?

Also way to point out why comparing them is a joke, moron. Its hilarious that you continue to act like Kawhi being a first option somehow strengthens your argument. Lmk when Klaynus makes the jump to being a first option.

Klay scored 60 in 29 minutes when he was the 1st option. He scored 37 in a quarter when he was the 1st option. Yes it matters. No one argues that Danny Green is a better offensive player than Klay, or that Aldridge is better, or any other Spur player. In fact, you only wish to argue the 1st option for the team with the 2nd best record in the league is a better offensive player than the 3rd option on the team just 2 games up on them. Even then you cannot hold your ground.

[Chinook]

The team at risk? BAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHA. WE HAVE THE 2ND BEST RECORD IN THE LEAGUE. THE ONLY TEAM AHEAD OF US IS A TEAM WITH TWO MVPS. JUST TAKE THE L SON.

Shut the fuck up. It's so annoying hearing this same shit over and over. The team is at risk of losing the same way they've lost for two years now. If you want the Spurs to be a "great regular-season team" that's fine. I don't care. But to hell with trying to rest on that when we already know that what they're doing now doesn't mean they'll win anything.

[RD2191]

You can literally replace "Kawhi ball" with anything.

Take the L son and move on, the record speaks for itself. The dubs have 4 all stars, we have 1 and still have the 2nd best record in the association.

[midnightpulp]

The team is at risk because they have Kawhi

:cry

When's the last time an offense built around a midpost centric perimeter player won a title?

You position yourself as this "forward thinking NBA fan" with a disdain for nostalgia, but fail to acknowledge what the numbers and trends are telling you. Believe me, I wanted Kawhi to dominate tonight. I want the NBA paradigm shifted away from Moreyball, Wardellball, etc and back to a game where post-play kills, but that's not happening.

[FkLA]

Klay scored 60 in 29 minutes when he was the 1st option. He scored 37 in a quarter when he was the 1st option. Yes it matters. No one argues that Danny Green is a better offensive player than Klay, or that Aldridge is better, or any other Spur player. In fact, you only wish to argue the 1st option for the team with the 2nd best record in the league is a better offensive player than the 3rd option on the team just 2 games up on them. Even then you cannot hold your ground.

The one game fat boy strikes again. :lmao

37 points in 1 quarter :cry
60 points :cry

[DMC]

lol stubborn fat boy

Not going to bother with that shit. Even if you were right, Kawhi is better at penetrating. So what's your point?

He's no where near the 3pt threat that Klay is (more of a liability since he's ok from out there, like Tony), and Klay can still score in the post and can drive. You'd get points faster with Klay on the floor than with Kawhi on the floor. You might give them back at the other end though.

[Chinook]

Take the L son and move on, the record speaks for itself. The dubs have 4 all stars, we have 1 and still have the 2nd best record in the association.

Built-in excuse in your mind.

[DMC]

The one game fat boy strikes again. :lmao

37 points in 1 quarter :cry
60 points :cry

ppg for a 1st option vs 3rd option :cry

[RD2191]

Shut the fuck up. It's so annoying hearing this same shit over and over. The team is at risk of losing the same way they've lost for two years now. If you want the Spurs to be a "great regular-season team" that's fine. I don't care. But to hell with trying to rest on that when we already know that what they're doing now doesn't mean they'll win anything.

What part of the team isn't built that way do you not understand? We aren't the dubs, we have 1 all star you delusional fuck. You honestly think Pop isn't running the best system that he can with the personnel that he has? Like I said, call RC and let him know you can give us the best shot at winning a title.

[HarlemHeat37]

Even if Parker is benched, Mills, Murray, Forbes don't provide any solutions (maybe Murray in the future). If Kawhi played like Harden but combined with his defense, this team would be a much bigger title threat. You're an analytics guy and you should know that midrange/midpost are "bad" shots.

Anyone have the tweet showing the PPS of post-play? It has one of the lowest values.

I know the alternatives for Parker aren't the solution, either, I've never said otherwise, tbh..

I don't disagree with your assessment on Kawhi, for the most part, but I still believe the Spurs can win with him as their best player..part of my belief is that they would be running a different style of basketball with a star PG, though(obviously this wouldn't change the way Kawhi plays, but his usage would drop and he's a very capable off-ball player)..

I've repeatedly said that it's very difficult to build a championship offense around a SF, though, unless it's a historic point-forward like Lebron..

[RD2191]

Blow it up Kawhi ball sucks! The only team with a better record than us has 4 all stars and 2 league MVPs in their primes! :lmao

[UZER]

Most people complaining about Parker aren't just complaining about this season. The writing has been on the wall for years that once he lost his quickness, his game would fall off a cliff which is exactly what has happened. The Spurs have not addressed the Tony aging problem and have handcuffed themselves of resolving it by paying him all that money this late in his career.

But we can bitch all we want on here back and forth, myself included. Ultimately, pop gives 0 shits and will do what he wants and after they lose in the playoffs, he'll go have some wine with Tony and Manu in France.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Did the poopsucking mods end up closing your thread? Can't find it

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267109

[FkLA]

He's no where near the 3pt threat that Klay is (more of a liability since he's ok from out there, like Tony), and Klay can still score in the post and can drive. You'd get points faster with Klay on the floor than with Kawhi on the floor. You might give them back at the other end though.

Now Kawhi is a liability from deep? Jesus you're an opportunistic fat ass. Maybe I should've called Klay and Steph liabilities when they were going 0-10 from deep during their losing streak.

He'll explode once in a while but on average you wouldn't get more points out of Klay.


ppg for a 1st option vs 3rd option :cry

FGAs are around the same and scoring as a first option is harder than scoring as a third option, idiot.

but but 37 points :cry

[DMC]

Blow it up Kawhi ball sucks! The only team with a better record than us has 4 all stars and 2 league MVPs in their primes! :lmao

KL and LMA both all stars. Pau Gasol has been an all star many times. Spurs have probably 3 HOFers on the floor and a HOF coach. Spurs might even have 4 HOFers considering Pau. Don't get all "not fair" on us. Everyone starts out with a payroll and an option to sign players.

[RD2191]

Pass it to our fat over the hill PG Kawhi!
Give it to our D league 2 point scoring center!
Toss it to our can't dribble without turning it over shooting guard!

:lmao

[RD2191]

KL and LMA both all stars. Pau Gasol has been an all star many times. Spurs have probably 3 HOFers on the floor and a HOF coach. Spurs might even have 4 HOFers considering Pau. Don't get all "not fair" on us. Everyone starts out with a payroll and an option to sign players.

Who said anything about fair? The only team ahead of us has 4 all stars and two league MVPs in their primes. Facts are facts.

[midnightpulp]

I know the alternatives for Parker aren't the solution, either, I've never said otherwise, tbh..

I don't disagree with your assessment on Kawhi, for the most part, but I still believe the Spurs can win with him as their best player..part of my belief is that they would be running a different style of basketball with a star PG, though(obviously this wouldn't change the way Kawhi plays, but his usage would drop and he's a very capable off-ball player)..

I've repeatedly said that it's very difficult to build a championship offense around a SF, though, unless it's a historic point-forward like Lebron..

Yeah, I'm not suggesting Kawhi isn't our best player, just that you can't take him and him alone and then "build" an offense around him. He'll very much need a 1B penetrating/3 point shooting guard as his running mate. Fanboys seem to think that because you can't build around him, it somehow "insults" his playing ability or his status as a top 3 NBA player.

[DMC]

Now Kawhi is a liability from deep? Jesus you're an opportunistic fat ass. Maybe I should've called Klay and Steph liabilities when they were going 0-10 from deep during their losing streak.

He'll explode once in a while but on average you wouldn't get more points out of Klay.

You don't understand basketball. This is well known. A liability is someone who has the green light because they've been successful in the past, but they are struggling but continue to fire away. Consider Kawhi instead takes the ball inside and gets to the FT line instead of taking another 3 and airballing or clanking it (his shot has been more of a line drive lately, he's lost some arc).

On average you'd get more points out of Klay if the team was built to get him the ball like they do with Leonard. You saying otherwise is just you flapping your gums.



FGAs are around the same and scoring as a first option is harder than scoring as a third option, idiot.

but but 37 points :cry
1st option means you have the play drawn up for you to score. I don't care how hard it is. That's not even the argument. Sure, KL can make tougher scoring drives than Klay can make, but Klay doesn't need to. So which point are you trying to argue now? Klay's best game and best quarter dwarf KL's and he holds the NBA record for points in a quarter. KL is very efficient, but not a volume scorer.

[DMC]

Who said anything about fair? The only team ahead of us has 4 all stars and two league MVPs on their primes. Facts are facts.

So they have guys who were voted into awards. Which of these people you mention ever won a Finals MVP? Spurs have 2 Finals MVP winners on the floor, should be 3 if Pau got justice, 4 if Manu got justice as well.

The Warriors didn't have Durant tonight, so they only have one league MVP on the floor and 3 all stars. Spurs have 2 All stars and 4 HOFers and a HOF coach. It wasn't a talent issue.

[DMC]

Yeah, I'm not suggesting Kawhi isn't our best player, just that you can't take him and him alone and then "build" an offense around him. He'll very much need a 1B penetrating/3 point shooting guard as his running mate. Fanboys seem to think that because you can't build around him, it somehow "insults" his playing ability or his status as a top 3 NBA player.
The ball seems to stop moving when KL gets it. It's almost like he's not part of the "beautiful game" as much as the other, less talented folks are, that he's determined to score once he gets it or he just passes right away, but not necessarily for better ball position.

[RD2191]

So they have guys who were voted into awards. Which of these people you mention ever won a Finals MVP? Spurs have 2 Finals MVP winners on the floor, should be 3 if Pau got justice, 4 if Manu got justice as well.

The Warriors didn't have Durant tonight, so they only have one league MVP on the floor and 3 all stars. Spurs have 2 All stars and 4 HOFers and a HOF coach. It wasn't a talent issue.

Cut the bullshit, our players aren't in their primes. And those players were voted into the all star game for a reason. And crofl and not a talent issue. So it's not a talent issue when your starting PG and center had 2 combined points? What was the issue then? Enlighten me.

[RD2191]

The ball seems to stop moving when KL gets it. It's almost like he's not part of the "beautiful game" as much as the other, less talented folks are, that he's determined to score once he gets it or he just passes right away, but not necessarily for better ball position.

It also stops moving with lafatcan, I don't see you calling him out.

[midnightpulp]

RobD is melting down :lol

Such a fanboy.

Look:


An NBA analysis of shooting from specific distances helps to clarify some of the idea of what is a good and bad shot. They analyzed shooting percentages for a season from various spots.

0-5 feet- 57% 1.14 point per shot
6-11 feet- 37% 0.74 points per shot
12-17 feet- 38% 0.76 points per shot
18- the line- 39% 0.78 points per shot
Threes- 35% 1.05 points per shot
Foul Shots- 77% 1.54 points per trip to line (2 shots)

The most efficient three ways to score are:
#1- Shooting free throws
#2- Shooting layups
#3- Shooting three point shots

Kawhi takes over 50% of his shots from the midrange:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/4vlk0l.jpg

James Harden takes 27% of his shots from the midrange.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2l8yjgg.jpg

The Rockets are a 51 win team and the second best player on that squad is Trevor Ariza :lol

Now before Diaz, Apa, and other helmets have a hissy fit, no, I would not want Harden over Kawhi. I'm just illustrating that it's easier to build a team in a vacuum around Harden type players than it is Kawhi type players. Ultimately, Kawhi + right talent >> Harden + right talent. But Harden is compatible with more types of talent.

[DMC]

Cut the bullshit, our players aren't in their primes. And those players were voted into the all star game for a reason. And crofl and not a talent issue. So it's not a talent issue when your starting PG and center had 2 combined points? What was the issue then? Enlighten me.

Why did we beat them on opening night with the same players?

Did they get more talented with Durant out?

[RD2191]

RobD is melting down :lol

Such a fanboy.

Look:



Kawhi takes over 50% of his shots from the midrange:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/4vlk0l.jpg

James Harden takes 27% of his shots from the midrange.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2l8yjgg.jpg

The Rockets are a 51 win team and the second best player on that squad is Trevor Ariza :lol

Now before Diaz, Apa, and other helmets have a hissy fit, no, I would not want Harden over Kawhi. I'm just illustrating that it's easier to build a team in a vacuum around Harden type players than it is Kawhi type players. Ultimately, Kawhi + right talent >> Harden + right talent. But Harden is compatible with more types of talent.

How many rings does harden ball have? Who has the better record? Try harder bruh.

[FkLA]

You don't understand basketball. This is well known. A liability is someone who has the green light because they've been successful in the past, but they are struggling but continue to fire away. Consider Kawhi instead takes the ball inside and gets to the FT line instead of taking another 3 and airballing or clanking it (his shot has been more of a line drive lately, he's lost some arc).

On average you'd get more points out of Klay if the team was built to get him the ball like they do with Leonard. You saying otherwise is just you flapping your gums.

lol if the team was built around Klay

Lmk when that happens. Until then your argument is shit, fat boy. He isn't capable of carrying that weight.


1st option means you have the play drawn up for you to score. I don't care how hard it is. That's not even the argument. Sure, KL can make tougher scoring drives than Klay can make, but Klay doesn't need to. So which point are you trying to argue now? Klay's best game and best quarter dwarf KL's and he holds the NBA record for points in a quarter. KL is very efficient, but not a volume scorer.

lol implying Klay does have plays run for him
lol implying Klay can be a first option but just 'doesn't need to be'
lol but but 37 points

Fuck outta here with your weak shit, fat boy.

[RD2191]

Why did we beat them on opening night with the same players?

Did they get more talented with Durant out?

You mean a team with a new starting small forward who had never played in their system? You're trolling right?

[midnightpulp]

How many rings does harden ball have? Who has the better record? Try harder bruh.

How many rings does Kawhiball have?

Oh, you think the 2014 Spurs were built around him :lmao

And you're still missing the fuckin' point.

[RD2191]

Kind of funny how no one ever seemed to have a problem when Tony porker was chucking us out of games.

[sasaint]

The ball seems to stop moving when KL gets it. It's almost like he's not part of the "beautiful game" as much as the other, less talented folks are, that he's determined to score once he gets it or he just passes right away, but not necessarily for better ball position.

Of course it stops with Kawhi and LMA. That's by design. That's what iso-ball is. I don't like it at all, but that's Pop's offense now.

[RD2191]

How many rings does Kawhiball have?

Oh, you think the 2014 Spurs were built around him :lmao

And you're still missing the fuckin' point.

Doesn't matter, Kawhi has a ring and finals MVP. He also has the 2nd best record in the league this season. And what's the point? Harden ball is a better system than Kawhi ball? Says who? You? And when the spurs beat the roxs in the playoffs then what?

[midnightpulp]

Doesn't matter, Kawhi has a ring and finals MVP. He also has the 2nd best record in the league this season. And what's the point? Harden ball is a better system than Kawhi ball? Says who? You? And when the spurs beat the roxs in the playoffs then what?

Yeah. Hardenball is a better system in a vacuum. Not says me, says cold hard numbers.

The Spurs should win that series considering Trevor Ariza is their 2nd best player.

[RD2191]

Yeah. Hardenball is a better system in a vacuum. Not says me, says cold hard numbers.

The Spurs should win that series considering Trevor Ariza is their 2nd best player.

Cold hard shit more like it. Let me know when harden wins a ring.

[DMC]

lol if the team was built around Klay

Lmk when that happens. Until then your argument is shit, fat boy. He isn't capable of carrying that weight.

On that team he doesn't need to. He's a all star even with Steph and KD on the team. He pulled their ass out of the fire last year in the WCF. I don't recall Kawhi doing that for SA. :lol so you're saying if he doesn't leave and go to a team where he's the 1st option, then by default your shit take is correct? :lol desperate times...


lol implying Klay does have plays run for him
lol implying Klay can be a first option but just 'doesn't need to be'
lol but but 37 points

Fuck outta here with your weak shit, fat boy.
Klay doesn't have plays run for him. Are you a fucking idiot? He's not a 1st option.
Klay can be a 1st option and has been and won the fucking WCF because of it.
lol but recovering from a 3-1 deficit to beat the team that beat Kawhi..

:lol dumbass

[FkLA]

RobD is melting down :lol

Such a fanboy.

Look:



Kawhi takes over 50% of his shots from the midrange:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/4vlk0l.jpg

James Harden takes 27% of his shots from the midrange.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/2l8yjgg.jpg

The Rockets are a 51 win team and the second best player on that squad is Trevor Ariza :lol

Now before Diaz, Apa, and other helmets have a hissy fit, no, I would not want Harden over Kawhi. I'm just illustrating that it's easier to build a team in a vacuum around Harden type players than it is Kawhi type players. Ultimately, Kawhi + right talent >> Harden + right talent. But Harden is compatible with more types of talent.

Compatible with more types of talent, sure. But how much does that really matter if the ceiling isn't higher? Harden' s teams haven't done shit in the playoffs. Nash's teams never got over the hump.

[DMC]

Of course it stops with Kawhi and LMA. That's by design. That's what iso-ball is. I don't like it at all, but that's Pop's offense now.

I know what iso ball is, but there's no real iso play, as KL has to work his way through the crowd. The ball just stops. It did that as well before KL was the 1st option.

[midnightpulp]

Cold hard shit more like it. Let me know when harden wins a ring.

Harden led teams have had more success in the post-season than Kawhi-led teams.

Kawhi has never been to a WCF as "the man."

But yeah, 2014, even though Duncan was the best player on the Spurs over the playoffs.

[RD2191]

And since when do harden and the roxs play defense? Would be pretty easy for kawhi and the spurs to chuck 50 3s a game if all they did was sucks dick on defense like harden and the rockets.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't think it's insulting to question an offense built around a SF, tbh..not just Kawhi, you could say the same thing about Durant, Carmelo, etc..it's just more natural to build an offense around a guard or a post big(in previous eras), as we've seen throughout history..

[spursistan]

He has a lot of proving to do in the playoffs as the #1 option, tbh. The Clippers series demons are still not fully exorcised..

I think it's part-personnel, part-style, but he shouldn't be getting taken out of games like that..Green/Aldridge legitimately had bigger impact on the ball game tonight..

[DMC]

Compatible with more types of talent, sure. But how much does that really matter if the ceiling isn't higher? Harden' s teams haven't done shit in the playoffs. Nash's teams never got over the hump.

You act as if the goal is to get the ring without getting by the Warriors and Rockets first. The Thunder haven't rang but they've rang the Spurs bells a few times.

[midnightpulp]

Compatible with more types of talent, sure. But how much does that really matter if the ceiling isn't higher? Harden' s teams haven't done shit in the playoffs. Nash's teams never got over the hump.

Have Kawhi-led teams?

2015, first round exit.

2016. 67 wins, 2nd round exit.

Harden got to the WCF one year.

And don't give me the 2014 bullshit. Kawhi led that team as much as Kirby led the 3 peat Lakers.

[RD2191]

Harden led teams have had more success in the post-season than Kawhi-led teams.

Kawhi has never been to a WCF as "the man."

But yeah, 2014, even though Duncan was the best player on the Spurs over the playoffs.

Yeah, because Timmy wasn't losing to 8 seeds before he got Kawhi. Who was finals MVP again? Who outplayed the top 2 players in the league on his way to a title?

[DMC]

I'm sorry Kawhi didn't bitch out and join the dubs like "superstar" Kevin Durant.

Now you're melting down.

[RD2191]

Have Kawhi-led teams?

2015, first round exit.

2016. 67 wins, 2nd round exit.

Harden got to the WCF one year.

And don't give me the 2014 bullshit. Kawhi led that team as much as Kirby led the 3 peat Lakers.

LMAO. False narrative just because you're getting your shit pushed in.

[midnightpulp]

I don't think it's insulting to question an offense built around a SF, tbh..not just Kawhi, you could say the same thing about Durant, Carmelo, etc..it's just more natural to build an offense around a guard or a post big(in previous eras), as we've seen throughout history..

Pretty much this.

[RD2191]

Now you're melting down.

Facts are facts bruh. Kawhi isn't surrounded by all stars, it is what is.

[ElNono]

To be fair (and regardless of his shitty game), Kawhi's been much more than anybody expected, IMO... don't want to derail this, but I thought Carmelo Aldrige was a legit star on his own when we signed him up? I don't see this level of scrutiny on what appears to be your #2 option...

[midnightpulp]

LMAO. False narrative just because you're getting your shit pushed in.

Oh, yeah, you're really thrashing me with that oh-so-clever rings argument. Are you secretly a Lakers fan in disguise time warped back to 2010 and arguing Kobe>Duncan cuz rings!

Where's your numbers? Facts?

And like those Kobe fans, you won't have any.

[RD2191]

Pretty much this.

You forgot one thing though, where is this guard that you speak of? Is he on the roster? Is he a draft and stash?

[DMC]

Yeah, because Timmy wasn't losing to 8 seeds before he got Kawhi. Who was finals MVP again? Who outplayed the top 2 players in the league on his way to a title?

Kobe was missing the playoffs before he got Pau and won 3 WCF in a row afterward. KL didn't do that for SA. Close though. As far as "outplayed". Andre Iguodala comes to mind. He won the Finals MVP over Lebron James and Steph Curry.

[RD2191]

Oh, yeah, you're really thrashing me with that oh-so-clever rings argument. Are you secretly a Lakers fan in disguise time warped back to 2010 and arguing Kobe>Duncan cuz rings!

Where's your numbers? Facts?

And like those Kobe fans, you won't have any.

Did Kawhi not win finals MVP? Is that not a fact?

[DMC]

Facts are facts bruh. Kawhi isn't surrounded by all stars, it is what is.

When he wins it's all KL. When he loses it's the team. Typical homer takes.

[midnightpulp]

Yeah, because Timmy wasn't losing to 8 seeds before he got Kawhi. Who was finals MVP again? Who outplayed the top 2 players in the league on his way to a title?

Timmy was also winning 4 titles as the man.

Kawhi outplayed Durant in that series?

News to me.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-western-conference-finals-thunder-vs-spurs.html

But in your irrational world, I'm sure 11.8 on .412 shooting is better than 25.8 on .475 shooting.

Furthermore, that OKC series was the toughest challenge the Spurs had in that run. Tell me who was the best player for us in the series?

[midnightpulp]

Did Kawhi not win finals MVP? Is that not a fact?

Tony Parker won a Finals MVP. Was he the leader of the 2007 Spurs?

Vernon Maxwell won a Finals MVP. So did Andre Iguodala.

Were they the "man" on their respective teams?

[RD2191]

Kobe was missing the playoffs before he got Pau and won 3 WCF in a row afterward. KL didn't do that for SA. Close though. As far as "outplayed". Andre Iguodala comes to mind. He won the Finals MVP over Lebron James and Steph Curry.

Yeah, because going from losing to 8 seeds to back to back titles is obviously a small accomplishment.

[TheGreatYacht]

Fuckn Mid :wow

[RD2191]

Timmy was also winning 4 titles as the man.

Kawhi outplayed Durant in that series?

News to me.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-western-conference-finals-thunder-vs-spurs.html

But in your irrational world, I'm sure 11.8 on .412 shooting is better than 25.8 on .475 shooting.

Furthermore, that OKC series was the toughest challenge the Spurs had in that run. Tell me who was the best player for us in the series?

Tell me where this team was before Kawhi?

[FkLA]

On that team he doesn't need to. He's a all star even with Steph and KD on the team. He pulled their ass out of the fire last year in the WCF. I don't recall Kawhi doing that for SA. :lol so you're saying if he doesn't leave and go to a team where he's the 1st option, then by default your shit take is correct? :lol desperate times...

Ironic coming from the guy that wanted to throw out PPG earlier in the year bc it was a future prediction based on :cry only half a season :cry. Now you want to not only predict he could be a first option, but that he could be a better one than Kawhi. Desperate times indeed, fat ass. :tu


Klay doesn't have plays run for him. Are you a fucking idiot? He's not a 1st option.
Klay can be a 1st option and has been and won the fucking WCF because of it.
lol but recovering from a 3-1 deficit to beat the team that beat Kawhi..

:lol dumbass

Had no idea only first options had plays run for them. Klay must be freelancing off of all those screens that get him open shots. You're such an imbecile. :lol

Leading a team in scoring for some games here or there doesn't make you a first option, idiot. It just means you got hot. By that logic Kawhi decided to be a first option in '14 and won a fuckibg title bc of it.

[RD2191]

Tony Parker won a Finals MVP. Was he the leader of the 2007 Spurs?

Vernon Maxwell won a Finals MVP. So did Andre Iguodala.

Were they the "man" on their respective teams?

Tony Parker has always been a faggot so no.

[RD2191]

You forgot one thing though, where is this guard that you speak of? Is he on the roster? Is he a draft and stash?

So where is he?

[DMC]

You mean a team with a new starting small forward who had never played in their system? You're trolling right?

So we beat them by 30 because one of the MVPs you mentioned as a disadvantage to us? The same MVP that wasn't playing tonight? The same team that lost its center and other crucial pieces? That team? The team that had David fucking West scoring at will? That team? Yeah David West is a beast. Too bad Diaw wasn't out there to make the worst duo in Spurs history, right?

The excuses you come up with don't even make sense. The Spurs had Pau Gasol and lost Tim Duncan. That's not a change at all though, right?

[midnightpulp]

Tell me where this team was before Kawhi?

Do you not see the stupidity of your logic?

Kawhi was the missing piece the post-07 Spurs needed, but what does this prove? That Kawhi was a great role player contra Duncan, Parker, and Manu?

I mean, Duncan was losing to the Lakers every year until Manu came along. What's this prove exactly?

[RD2191]

And yes Timmy won titles, but he had help. He had two all stars and clutch shooters playing next to him on a few of those title runs. Who does Kawhi have? Can't get past the 2nd round LMA?

[midnightpulp]

And yes Timmy won titles, but he had help. He had two all stars and clutch shooters playing next to him on a few of those title runs. Who does Kawhi have? Can't get past the 2nd round LMA?

Who does Harden have?

Trevor Ariza?

[DMC]

Ironic coming from the guy that wanted to throw out PPG earlier in the year bc it was a future prediction based on :cry only half a season :cry. Now you want to not only predict he could be a first option, but that he could be a better one than Kawhi. Desperate times indeed, fat ass. :tu

Only on offense. He'd be a liability on defense compared to Kawhi but the 1st option isn't a defensive assignment.

:lol you needing to go apeshit on the emojis because you don't have a point.


Had no idea only first options had plays run for them. Klay must be freelancing off of all those screens that get him open shots. You're such an imbecile. :lol

If Klay has a play run for him, he's by default the 1st option, idiot.

:lol not understanding what "1st option" means, as if it's some official team position. Ever seen a play drawn up? Who is the guy that gets the "shoot the ball" assignment 1st? I'll give you a hint.. it ends with "option". Klay isn't the 1st option most of the time, he's 3rd. Kawhi is the 1st option most of the time.


Leading a team in scoring for some games here or there doesn't make you a first option, idiot. It just means you got hot. By that logic Kawhi decided to be a first option in '14 and won a fuckibg title bc of it.

It does if the plays are run for you most of the time, dipshit. Again, learn the verbiage before you open your border patrol pleaser.

[RD2191]

Do you not see the stupidity of your logic?

Kawhi was the missing piece the post-07 Spurs needed, but what does this prove? That Kawhi was a great role contra Duncan, Parker, and Manu?

I mean, Duncan was losing to the Lakers every year until Manu came along. What's this prove exactly?

Missing piece LMAO. He's the reason why Timmy just retired last season. You're telling me we win it all without Kawhi? Kawhi has been more than a role player or missing piece. A role player can get you the 2nd best record in the league? Since when?

[RD2191]

Who does Harden have?

Trevor Ariza?

Doesn't matter, what has he won? What has he accomplished? And WTF is your dumbass point anyway? Harden ball is a better system? Ok, well where is our star guard to build this winning system around? Oh that's right, we don't have one, which makes your entire stupid argument pointless.

[FkLA]

Have Kawhi-led teams?

2015, first round exit.

2016. 67 wins, 2nd round exit.

Harden got to the WCF one year.

And don't give me the 2014 bullshit. Kawhi led that team as much as Kirby led the 3 peat Lakers.

Yeah, obviously a Kawhi-led Spurs team hasn't rung yet. I'm just asking if you feel confident saying a team built around a guy like Harden has a higher ceiling? Their '15 WCF run they rode Josh Smith while Harden was on the bench. Sucked last year. Aren't as good as the Spurs this year-- that despite the fact that Harden's team is built around his strengths better than the Spurs are around Kawhi imo.

[midnightpulp]

Missing piece LMAO. He's the reason why Timmy just retired last season. You're telling me we win it all without Kawhi? Kawhi has been more than a role player or missing piece. A role player can get you the 2nd best record in the league? Since when?

Are you this retarded?

Kawhi was very much a role player from his rookie year until his 2014 coming out party. He didn't do much scoring prior to the showdown with Miami. He was basically a 3 and D guy who was just getting his feet wet with more sophisticated offensive moves.

I'm not talking about current Kawhi. But you're acting like Kawhi's Finals MVP somehow proves he's an easier player to build around than Harden. That doesn't make any sense. I guess Parker's 07 Finals MVP "proves" he's an easier player to build around than Chris Paul.

[RD2191]

And what does it matter if a Kawhi led team hasn't rang yet? When did a KD led team ring? When did LeBron ring before he joined two all star players in their primes?

[RD2191]

Are you this retarded?

Kawhi was very much a role player from his rookie year until his 2014 coming out party. He didn't do much scoring prior to the showdown with Miami. He was basically a 3 and D guy who was just getting his feet wet with more sophisticated offensive moves.

I'm not talking about current Kawhi. But you're acting like Kawhi's Finals MVP somehow proves he's an easier player to build around than Harden. That doesn't make any sense. I guess Parker's 07 Finals MVP "proves" he's an easier player to build around than Chris Paul.

You never answered my question, where is this supposed star guard that we're supposed to bulld our system around?

[DMC]

Cold hard shit more like it. Let me know when harden wins a ring.


And what does it matter if a Kawhi led team hasn't rang yet? When did a KD led team ring? When did LeBron ring before he joined two all star players in their primes?

:lol

[midnightpulp]

Yeah, obviously a Kawhi-led Spurs team hasn't rung yet. I'm just asking if you feel confident saying a team built around a guy like Harden has a higher ceiling? Their '15 WCF run they rode Josh Smith while Harden was on the bench. Sucked last year. Aren't as good as the Spurs this year-- that despite the fact that Harden's team is built around his strengths better than the Spurs are around Kawhi imo.

No. I've stated such. Kawhi + right pieces>Harden + right pieces.

But the right pieces are harder to find for the former. Doesn't mean I want Kawhi traded or think he's overrated, just that the Spurs are limited in what type of personnel they can surround him with. As Harlem illustrated, it's not easy to build around SFs.

[DMC]

You never answered my question, where is this supposed star guard that we're supposed to bulld our system around?

So because the player you have isn't going to be the world beater on offense you hoped, there must, of necessity, be a better option? Why can't it just be that you're fucked?

[midnightpulp]

You never answered my question, where is this supposed star guard that we're supposed to bulld our system around?

Don't know.

Hope Murray blossoms. His style solves a lot of this team's problems.

[RD2191]

:lol

Supposedly hasn't rang yet, because we obviously ring without Kawhi in 14. Am I right?

[RD2191]

Don't know.

Hope Murray blossoms. His style solves a lot of this team's problems.

So then WTF was the point of your thread?

[DMC]

Don't know.

Hope Murray blossoms. His style solves a lot of this team's problems.

Murray's peak is poor man's Reggie Jackson imo.

[midnightpulp]

Supposedly hasn't rang yet, because we obviously ring without Kawhi in 14. Am I right?

No one ever said that. Quit strawmanning.

[DMC]

Supposedly hasn't rang yet, because we obviously ring without Kawhi in 14. Am I right?

What does it matter? You said so yourself. If Manu doesn't go nuclear in the 1st we might not have won. Had KL hit that FT in 13 we might have another ring. The Spurs played hella-basketball. KL's feats were just slightly above Manu's. It wasn't a clear run away performance, but he was impressive.

[RD2191]

So because the player you have isn't going to be the world beater on offense you hoped, there must, of necessity, be a better option? Why can't it just be that you're fucked?

What was the point of this thread then? We have what we have and Kawhi is who he is. Yeah, it would be awesome if we had an all star guard but we don't, which is why this is a stupid fucking thread.

[DMC]

What was the point of this thread then? We have what we have and Kawhi is who he is. Yeah, it would be awesome if we had an all star guard but we don't, which is why this is a stupid fucking thread.

Why would there be a point to it? No one here can make personnel decisions for the Spurs. It's just an observation. Settle down, Paco.

[james evans]

it would help if the rest of the team could consistently hit open jumpers. In the 4th, Kerr sent double and triple teams at Leonard knowing we couldnt hit shit wide open. I don't think any other team in the league outside of the sixers and Kings miss as many open jumpers as we do. If you can't consistently hit an open jump shot as an nba player, that's a fucking problem that can't be fixed. The sad thing is that danny green was hot tonight. wtf

[RD2191]

Why would there be a point to it? No one here can make personnel decisions for the Spurs. It's just an observation. Settle down, Paco.

A stupid and pointless observation.

[Mikeanaro]

Harden went to the WCF because all teams were injured excepting the Warrefs.

[RD2191]

Harden went to the WCF because all teams were injured excepting the Warrefs.

Shhh, this won't fit midnight's false narrative.

[midnightpulp]

What was the point of this thread then? We have what we have and Kawhi is who he is. Yeah, it would be awesome if we had an all star guard but we don't, which is why this is a stupid fucking thread.

Because people here are under the impression that all the Spurs need to do to win the title is more forcefeeding Kawhi and/or Kawhi just needs an "okay" perimeter player to run with and all will be solved. But the one issue no one has touched on is that Kawhi's offensive style just isn't compatible with what works in the NBA and is somewhat part of the problem of why this team will struggle to get to the WCF, never mind beating the Warriors. Point is Kawhi is never constructively criticized on here. It's always Porker's fault, LMA's fault, House's fault, etc.

So either: Kawhi needs to do more magical work during the off-season and develop an ELITE dribble-drive game that he starts from the top of the key (i.e. Harden) and develop a better off-the-dribble 3 point shot.

Or the Spurs need to find/develop a 20ppg point guard threat with Kawhi scaling back his midrange game and looking to dribble-drive more.

[midnightpulp]

Shhh, this won't fit midnight's false narrative.

Clippers were healthy, the team that beat us.

Try again.

[Mikeanaro]

Clippers were healthy, the team that beat us.

Try again.
CP3 injured vs Spurs, never recovered and he is the soul of that team.
His magical shot over timmy, pulled a willis reed.

[RD2191]

Because people here are under the impression that all the Spurs need to do to win the title is more forcefeeding Kawhi and/or Kawhi just needs an "okay" perimeter player to run with and all will be solved. But the one issue no one has touched on is that Kawhi's offensive style just isn't compatible with what works in the NBA and is somewhat part of the problem of why this team will struggle to get to the WCF, never mind beating the Warriors. Point is Kawhi is never constructively criticized on here. It's always Porker's fault, LMA's fault, House's fault, etc.

So either: Kawhi needs to do more magical work during the off-season and develop an ELITE dribble-drive game that he starts from the top of the key (i.e. Harden) and develop a better off-the-dribble 3 point shot.

Or the Spurs need to find/develop a 20ppg point guard threat with Kawhi scaling back his midrange game and looking to dribble-drive more.

You need talent to win titles period. That's where it ends. The heat had plenty and the dubs have plenty. It's really that simple, Kawhi needs better talent around him. Why did LeBron join the Heat? Because of their system? No, he formed a superteam because he needed other stars to win.

[FkLA]

Only on offense. He'd be a liability on defense compared to Kawhi but the 1st option isn't a defensive assignment.

:lol you needing to go apeshit on the emojis because you don't have a point.

:lol He'd be better on offense why because your fatness says so? You're an arrogant fat ass who wants his predictions to be passed off as facts.


If Klay has a play run for him, he's by default the 1st option, idiot.

:lol not understanding what "1st option" means, as if it's some official team position. Ever seen a play drawn up? Who is the guy that gets the "shoot the ball" assignment 1st? I'll give you a hint.. it ends with "option". Klay isn't the 1st option most of the time, he's 3rd. Kawhi is the 1st option most of the time.

:lol You're such an insufferable fat fuck. It's pretty common practice to refer to a #1 on a team as a first option. Or a #3 as a third option. Talking big picture here not one individual play.

Klay isn't a 1st option most of the time for a reason. There's other things besides getting more plays run for you that comes with being a first option. You know like more game planning from defenses, more double teams. It's idiotic to nonchalantly assume Klaynus could handle those things better than Kawhi.


t does if the plays are run for you most of the time, dipshit. Again, learn the verbiage before you open your border patrol pleaser.

More verbiage semantics by the fat boy. He was still a #2 during that WCF. Got hot at the right time and deserves tons of credit for coming up big but that doesn't make him a #1. :lol

[RD2191]

Why did Kevin Durant join a talented team to join an even more talented team?

[Pablo Escobar]

Sup

[midnightpulp]

You need talent to win titles period. That's where it ends. The heat had plenty and the dubs have plenty. It's really that simple, Kawhi needs better talent around him. Why did LeBron join the Heat? Because of their system? No, he formed a superteam because he needed other stars to win.

Yeah, but Kawhi could further work to develop a game that is more in line with what is proven to work, which would give us more roster flexibility (i.e. we can get away with having just a "good" PG instead of an All-Star level PG).

If Kawhi continues to imitate Jordan, then the Spurs are very much forced to find that star PG.

That said, he just might not be capable of developing an elite penetration game (not a slight, no one can be the perfect player), so the FO will have to build accordingly.

[Mikeanaro]

Why did Kevin Durant join a talented team to join an even more talented team?
Because he is a filthy rich loser.

[RD2191]

Will this team win it all as constructed? Probably not. Is Kawhi that good that he has us with the 2nd best record in the league? Yes. Just because we don't win it all does that mean Kawhi is a failure? No. If Pop had better players would he run a different system? Probably. But the fact of the matter is that we don't and we have to roll with what we got.

[FkLA]

No. I've stated such. Kawhi + right pieces>Harden + right pieces.

But the right pieces are harder to find for the former. Doesn't mean I want Kawhi traded or think he's overrated, just that the Spurs are limited in what type of personnel they can surround him with. As Harlem illustrated, it's not easy to build around SFs.

Idk he's had a corpse at PG these past two years. I'd like to see what this Kawhi can do with an upgrade there. Decent PGs are a dime a dozen, I think Rique's contract has more to do with with the problem there than with Kawhi being tough to build around.

I also don't think this is Kawhi's final form. His playmaking is continually improving.

[RD2191]

Yeah, but Kawhi could further work to develop a game that is more in line with what is proven to work, which would give us more roster flexibility (i.e. we can get away with having just a "good" PG instead of an All-Star level PG).

If Kawhi continues to imitate Jordan, then the Spurs are very much forced to find that star PG.

That said, he just might not be capable of developing an elite penetration game (not a slight, no one can be the perfect player), so the FO will have to build accordingly.

I don't believe any of that. Why is this Kawhi's fault? He's an MVP level player, we wouldn't even be having this discussion if Kawhi had better players around him.

[FkLA]

Yeah, but Kawhi could further work to develop a game that is more in line with what is proven to work, which would give us more roster flexibility (i.e. we can get away with having just a "good" PG instead of an All-Star level PG).

If Kawhi continues to imitate Jordan, then the Spurs are very much forced to find that star PG.

That said, he just might not be capable of developing an elite penetration game (not a slight, no one can be the perfect player), so the FO will have to build accordingly.

The Spurs don't have a good PG. Far from it.

[RD2191]

:lol He'd be better on offense why because your fatness says so? You're an arrogant fat ass who wants his predictions to be passed off as facts.



:lol You're such an insufferable fat fuck. It's pretty common practice to refer to a #1 on a team as a first option. Or a #3 as a third option. Talking big picture here not one individual play.

Klay isn't a 1st option most of the time for a reason. There's other things besides getting more plays run for you that comes with being a first option. You know like more game planning from defenses, more double teams. It's idiotic to nonchalantly assume Klaynus could handle those things better than Kawhi.



More verbiage semantics by the fat boy. He was still a #2 during that WCF. Got hot at the right time and deserves tons of credit for coming up big but that doesn't make him a #1. :lol

:lol going in raw

[Fireball]

Kawhi's 3 has disappeared ... thats alarming

[BillMc]

Because he is a filthy rich loser.
:lol

[YGWHI]

Because people here are under the impression that all the Spurs need to do to win the title is more forcefeeding Kawhi and/or Kawhi just needs an "okay" perimeter player to run with and all will be solved. But the one issue no one has touched on is that Kawhi's offensive style just isn't compatible with what works in the NBA and is somewhat part of the problem of why this team will struggle to get to the WCF, never mind beating the Warriors. Point is Kawhi is never constructively criticized on here. It's always Porker's fault, LMA's fault, House's fault, etc.

Do you "constructively" critice his game in this thread?

Saying "if he plays like Harden..." without context.

This is the most stupid thing I heard from you. Even more that your "Parker can score 25 against GSW" of last year.

Just in case you forget...

846473177983340544

846894914969358337

Kawhi has been better than Harden as scorer.

Then tell me who opted to sign Pau and Manu instead of completing Kawhi's game with a guard who can drive, or at least, can shoot.

This is how RC/Pop wanted to build the Spurs, if you have an issue BLAME THEM, not Kawhi.


I still believe the Spurs can win with him as their best player..part of my belief is that they would be running a different style of basketball with a star PG

Like it or not, a part of LeBron success is related to being surrounded by elite guards like Wade and Irving. Kawhi's the only elite-team leading scorer who doesn't have a perimeter threat to take pressure off.

If Kawhi would have that type of star PG, they would be like KD and Russ in OKC but more efficient and successful.

[YGWHI]

it would help if the rest of the team could consistently hit open jumpers. In the 4th, Kerr sent double and triple teams at Leonard knowing we couldnt hit shit wide open. I don't think any other team in the league outside of the sixers and Kings miss as many open jumpers as we do. If you can't consistently hit an open jump shot as an nba player, that's a fucking problem that can't be fixed. The sad thing is that danny green was hot tonight. wtf

Agreed. When Curry, LeBron, have an off night, their teams have the personnel to solve it. But the Spurs are just Kawhi, if his shot struggles like tonight, they're fucked, like in OKC series they have a ton of good looks they just missed them badly.

[YGWHI]

wow chinook...... would you rather he not shoot? what would be most ideal solution for you?

I guess you missed his idea of how Kawhi offense should be...He literally said "Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait"

Parking in the corner, catch and shoot. In his mind, Kawhi has to be reduced to just a 3D guy.

But we already know his mind works in a weird way, like tonight when he said


The team lost the lead exactly because they went to Kawhi to close the first quarter

When the Spurs had the lead at first half and lost it in the 3rd quarter...

[YGWHI]

its impossible for fans to accept that kawhi had a bad game by his standards :lol

Agreed. He had a bad game, an off night.

Then you have fans overreacting here, like OP and Chinook saying that "Kawhi puts the team at risk"

Sadly, the Spurs can't survive against elite teams if Kawhi doesn't play at MVP level all his minutes. That's the only reason of their low ceiling, it's not Kawhi's style of game, the issue is no one step up/take over games if he's off.

And Kawhi is human, nobody will play great ALL games of a playoffs series, neither beat the GSW alone.

[midnightpulp]

Do you "constructively" critice his game in this thread?

Saying "if he plays like Harden..." without context.

This is the most stupid thing I heard from you. Even more that your "Parker can score 25 against GSW" of last year.

Just in case you forget...

846473177983340544

846894914969358337

Kawhi has been better than Harden as scorer.

Then tell me who opted to sign Pau and Manu instead of completing Kawhi game with a young guard who can drive or at least shoot? Kawhi?

This is how RC/Pop wanted to build this team, if you have an issue BLAME THEM, not Kawhi.

Demarcus Cousins (a post player) ranks 3rd. How's that working out for his teams (Sac/NO)?

I'm not blaming Kawhi for anything. Stating a fact. Post-play isn't effective in pressuring team defenses like it used to be. It doesn't tire defenses out, like scrambling to cover shooters or collapsing on penetrators. It's harder to playmake from the post (how's Kawhi's playmaking compare to Harden?). It's amazing Kawhi's averages that PPP when his offense is 50% midrange jumpers, but it's not going to work in the playoffs against 3 point shooting attacks. You can't beat math. I also want to see what Kawhi is averaging (PPS) from the midrange.

And I didn't say say Parker "can" score 25 against GS last year. I said we'll need him to be a threat for 25. And I'm right. Guess what sank us this game? A combined 6 points from the PGs. 25 from Parker or even Mills would've come in handy.

[midnightpulp]

Oh, and Harden still averages more PPS than Kawhi.

Clever, you were, comparing their points per possession, when Harden is essentially a point guard who will have more possessions where he's looking to playmake.

James Harden leads the lead in touches, yet averages only a sliver less points-per-possession.

http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1

You almost threw that one by me. Nice try :lol

[YGWHI]

Demarcus Cousins (a post player) ranks 3rd. How's that working out for his teams (Sac/NO)?

I'm not blaming Kawhi for anything. Stating a fact. Post-play isn't effective in pressuring team defenses like it used to be. It doesn't tire defenses out, like scrambling to cover shooters or collapsing on penetrators. It's harder to playmake from the post (how's Kawhi's playmaking compare to Harden?). It's amazing Kawhi's averages that PPP when his offense is 50% midrange jumpers, but it's not going to work in the playoffs against 3 point shooting attacks. You can't beat math. I also want to see what Kawhi is averaging (PPS) from the midrange.

I wouldnt say that Kawhi is just a post-up player when he was leading the league on PPP in P&Rs as ball-handler.

Also, you forget that he's averaging almost 5 apg in the last 5 games in part because he improved a lot his drive and kick's

You can repeat he's one of the best perimeter post-up players of last 15 years, that's old style, blah blah...While I say he's one of most versatile scorer in today-NBA



And I didn't say say Parker "can" score 25 against GS last year. I said we'll need him to be a threat for 25. And I'm right. Guess what sank us this game?

Let me see...Kawhi? Since he's MVP candidate, top 3-5 player in the league but he "puts the team at risk" this season.


A combined 6 points from the PGs. 25 from Parker or even Mills would've come in handy.

a-You said he was still able to score 25 in a game against Warriors.

b-What you don't understand is that Kawhi's style of game doesn't matter when this team has many holes to fill...

He could be Magic out there making plays for everyone and still shooters would miss wide open looks, opposite guards would kill Parker, Mills, Manu, the same with Pau in P&Rs.

You say it's a matter of style of play, I say it's a supporting cast issue.

We wouldn't talk of post-up style if Kawhi would have at least one or two teammates putting numbers consistently.

[YGWHI]

Oh, and Harden still averages more PPS than Kawhi.

Clever, you were, comparing their points per possession, when Harden is essentially a point guard who will have more possessions where he's looking to playmake.

James Harden leads the lead in touches, yet averages only a sliver less points-per-possession.

http://stats.nba.com/players/touches/#!?sort=TOUCHES&dir=1

You almost threw that one by me. Nice try :lol

We use per 100 possessions stats to compare players who don't play the same minutes, nor have the same USG%, FGAs, touches.

Like in Kawhi-Harden case, per 100 are fairer than ppg.

[midnightpulp]

I wouldnt say that Kawhi is just a post-up player when he was leading the league on PPP in P&Rs as ball-handler.

Doesn't matter. If the result of the pick-and-roll play is a midrange jumper, it's basically the same thing. Even if he's efficient on midrange shots, it's just not a sustainable style.


Also, you forget that he's averaging almost 5 apg in the last 5 games in part because he improved a lot his drive and kick's

Needs to do it more.


You can repeat he's one of the best perimeter post-up player of last 15 years, that's old style...While I say he's one of most versatile scorer in today-NBA

Versatility doesn't matter anymore. Two shots work in the NBA. 3 pointers/layups. Also FTs, and that's one thing he's elite at.


Let me see...Kawhi? Since he's MVP candidate, top 3-5 player in the league but he "puts the team at risk" this season.


I never said he puts the team at risk, but I do agree that a midrange centric game is "riskier" than what the Rockets or Celtics play. It comes down to math. Simple as that.


a-You said he was still able to score 25 in a game against Warriors.

b-What you don't understand is that Kawhi's style of game doesn't matter when this team has many holes to fill...

He could be Magic out there making plays for everyone and still shooters would miss wide open looks, opposite guards would kill Parker, Mills, Manu, the same with Pau in P&Rs.

You say it's a matter of style of play, I say it's a supporting cast issue.

We wouldn't talk of post-up style if Kawhi would have at least one or two teammates putting numbers consistently.

Maybe I did say it. Find me the quote. But Parker last season was the only back court player who seemed even capable of scoring 25, so I was "all in" on him. And I was right, again. The 3rd option by committee idea blew up in your faces against the Thunder.

I agree a huge part of the problem is the backcourt. I've made threads about it, but Kawhi isn't "blameless." Certain parts of his game just don't "work" anymore with how the NBA has evolved (devolved in my mind). You think I'm slighting Kawhi. No. I want his style (and the Spurs overall "size kills" style) to work. I was hoping he'd have a monster game tonight using his style, after which I would've made a thread nicknaming him "The Paradigm Shift." Had it all planned out. But it's obvious his style isn't sustainable against top teams, especially over a 7 game series.

And Kawhi does have consistent helpers. LMA is a 20ppg per 36 scorer. And Gasol and Lee have been great off the bench. If he didn't have help, the Spurs wouldn't have the 2nd best record in the league.

That said, the Warriors are far better on paper, so I'm not expecting a title, but if we don't reach the WCF, then the writing will really be on the wall.

Calm down. He's still a top 3 player, but he needs a backcourt player who is near his equal offensively, like an Isaiah Thomas.

[Slippy]

Both Green and LMA outplayed Kawhi. The team lost the lead exactly because they went to Kawhi to close the first quarter. It didn't make any sense. Yes Parker didn't play well, but he only used six possessions, so who cares? Dedmon was fine. There's no way to spin this game other than Kawhiso ground the offense to a halt, and they never got back into rhythm.

Summed up well.

Kawai was a letdown. We have to give Igs & barnes credit. They forced him into shots that were ill- advised or out of his comfort zone. When Kawai tried to make play's for teammates his decison making was woeful usally doing it when driving into a crowd.

Great thing is kawai is a quick study & probably needed game like this to learn from . Glad its the regular season.

Now onto the other big issue. Whos going to step up at point

[Down Under]

I'd compare Kawhiso more to 2nd three-peat Jordan than Kobe. He's a much more efficient midrange shooter and won't shoot some ridiculous fadeaway even if he's double teamed - he's a very willing passer. It's not an efficient prototype to base your game on today, but he is extremely good at it.

[MultiTroll]

Oh, and Harden still averages more PPS than Kawhi
With ABC-NBAs agenda to promote beard, the amount of bogus FTs is staggering.

But don't get me wrong, completely agree with this thread.
Pops offense is not best suited to Kwa.
And sadly Kwa has had far too many trips down the floor that he goes into Kobme mode.
Jesus a couple of those forced treys last night vs Golden were pathetic. 100% Kobme possessions.

[DMC]

Harden went to the WCF because all teams were injured excepting the Warrefs.

Harden went because JET and JSmoove bailed his ass out.

[Arcadian]

So...the take-home message of this thread is, "If we had a star PG we'd be a better team."

How fucking insightful.

[horsielove]

kawhi is the new robinson. both are great in regular season, both choker in the playoffs. now we just need kawhi to break his back or something so we can draft the next duncan, tbh. the sooner the better.

[RD2191]

So...the take-home message of this thread is, "If we had a star PG we'd be a better team."

How fucking insightful.

:lol TBH

[RD2191]

With ABC-NBAs agenda to promote beard, the amount of bogus FTs is staggering.

But don't get me wrong, completely agree with this thread.
Pops offense is not best suited to Kwa.
And sadly Kwa has had far too many trips down the floor that he goes into Kobme mode.
Jesus a couple of those forced treys last night vs Golden were pathetic. 100% Kobme possessions.

He has us with the 2ND best record in the league, Kawhi isn't the problem, his teammates are.

[dabom]

I have never seen OP to be correct tbh. :lol

[MultiTroll]

He has us with the 2ND best record in the league, Kawhi isn't the problem, his teammates are.
When he gets doubled and fails to move the ball, they both are.
As orchestrated by 4 Dumb coach.
Lots of times it's not "who can you pass it to so they can shoot" but rather two passes need to be made.
That's what Golden does. All the fucking time.
It's not rocket scientist basketball.

[coachmac87]

Spurs don't need an ALL-Star point guard..I mean it'd be nice but it's not what they need.

But I do agree this team needs dribble-drive players..who can pass and score..we really don't have any tbh

Parker-He can't really do much other than get shots for himself and was never a great passer. Can only play limited minutes

Manu- Great passer and by far the best on the team but can't penetrate to score or finish/draw fouls. Strictly a passer these days..Can also play limited minutes

Simmons-Can get in the paint and finish/draw fouls but has tunnel vision and struggles to make right pass or read when needed.

Murray- Probably our best overall dribble/drive player but tooooo many turnovers and honestly can't rely on him come postseason. He can help next year but I don't think he can this year.

Kawhi- Tunnel vision. Can get into paint but doesn't get to the rim enough. And he drives to strictly score and not ignite ball movement by kicking it out.

Patty/Green- Neither can get into the paint and are strictly shooters.

Bottom line is Spurs don't have the personnel to do what OP wants so yes the Spurs must rely on LMA/Kawhi ISO midrange games. Is it good enough? Probably not. But they're the 2nd best team in the league regardless

And BTW yes Spurs won 67 games last year but they lost against OKC due to lack of size (Diaw/West) and Duncan 40yr old knees calling it quits. You can't compare the teams and suggest the teams downfall last year will be the same this year. Just simply not true....and let's also not that series was controversial (Game 2, Game 5)

[SAGirl]

I mentioned it at halftime, if he couldn't hit his shots, he needed to get to the line... Curry did...
You had a good point. Specially bc when he's playing with Lamarcus and Pau, both jumpshooting bigs, and Pop even takes Tony out, he's surrounded by shooters and needs to get to the basket. If his 3 isn't falling it's in part bc he is forcing it too much. Forget the 3 unless you are spotted up and Lamarcus or someone creates that shot.... get to the basket Kiwi.
:claw

[024]

True. Leonard making tough midrange 2's may get him points but don't really open up any shots for his teammates. Nothing exactly wrong with that but Spurs need someone to draw in defenders to create shots for it's shooters. They don't have curry or Thompson level shooters so the shooters need some space to make shots.

Problem is no one is getting into the paint and scoring except off offensive boards. LMA can't even post up people 5 inches shorter than him. Parker can no longer penetrate and everyone else only shoots jumpers. Leonard gets into the paint but he doesn't destroy defenses by doing it like Lebron or Harden. Spurs desperately needs Murray to develop. Hopefully by then, spurs would also get rid of parker and Softridge.

[bic50]

kawhi is the new robinson. both are great in regular season, both choker in the playoffs. now we just need kawhi to break his back or something so we can draft the next duncan, tbh. the sooner the better.
kys

[rjv]

he needs to get better at handling the double teams. leonard has not yet hit his ceiling.

[Chinook]

People don't fucking get it. A star PG would only fix the problem in the sense that the non-Kawhi half of the offense would be better. It won't actually make the Kawhi half better. I feel like it's been years now that the Spurs have had these same problems with Kawhiso, and so many posters ignore it.

It very obviously hurts the D to have a wing so low for most possessions. When Kawhi makes his shots, it's easier to adjust to the poor defensive spacing. But in a game like last night where he misses or turns it over repeatedly, it consistently gets the Spurs in bad positions. You need two perimeter players above the FTLE to have defensive integrity, and too often, Kawhiso leads to either four players below the line or a big and a small as the above-FTLE players. This lack of integrity is the primary reason why continues to have a horrible defensive on-off.

There are games where everybody else sucks and Kawhi has to keep pounding the rock. But this wasn't one of those games. Leonard has to understand that sometimes he doesn't have the hot hand and that he needs to find the guys who do. Tim, Tony and Manu all understand/understood that and gave the ball to role-players at times even at the expense of their own touches. Kawhi has to develop that level of understanding to be the type of stars those guys were.

This is also on Pop, because independent of Kawhi's decision-making, Pop should have run plays for other guys. I don't know if he ran any non-OOB play all night. He tries to take control at really pointless times, but then when the team is floundering, he seems to be unable to do anything past benching guys (even if those guys aren't the particular problem). I want to say he's just saving up plays for the WCF, but as we all know, the Spurs may well not even get there.

[dabom]

Let me paraphrase. Kawhi is good when he makes baskets. Kawhi is not good when he doesn't make baskets. That's really what you just said right now. :lol

[SAGirl]

Of course it stops with Kawhi and LMA. That's by design. That's what iso-ball is. I don't like it at all, but that's Pop's offense now.

It can't be helped when the best players have their game based on the post, and the offense is structured for them.

I do think Pop is constantly pushing guys to move without the ball and to pass the ball as well. They don't execute well though bc:

No. 1: they don't have an elite passer in that starting lineup which causes them to miss shot opportunities often. Kawhi is creating a lot more. In fact, he's probably the best in the starting lineup right this moment creating for others and is generating 5 or 6 assists per game lately, but he's also TO over too much, and having too many Kawhobe moments Or Kobme as Multitroll calls them. Aside from him, Tony is done, which is a shame bc some of his best games he was generating a lot of ball movement and assists. Lamarcus is also trying to pass more but his 2 man game with Green can get cringe worthy... etc. and he doesn't have good court vision. I don't think he's selfish quite honestly, just doesn't have that passing talent that other talented bigs have. Danny actually has a good A/TO ratio and knows the offense well enough to make good passes, but he's also going to have shaktin a fool passes every so often. Then Dedmon is a guy you really don't want to make anything but the easiest of passes like a hand off.

No. 2: they don't have good off the ball players in that lineup. Danny is the best bc he can shoot, he runs off screens and tries to cut and stay active. They don't find him enough. He then engages in this 2 man game with Lamarcus more than anything bc of Lamarcus not bc he wouldn't rather be running of screens to get open for example. Dedmon is limited off the ball bc he can only screen and roll and he doesn't have such great hands that you can throw him a lob unless his man completely abandoned his assignment. If his man is in his vicinity you can't lob to him.. it will be a steal... he really doesn't have the best hands... not quite Jeff Errors but it's risky unless he's clearly open. Against the good defenses that doesn't happen that often.

Tony doesn't play off the ball well at all. It's probably one of the reasons he stopped fitting in with the group (aside from just looking done). He's not active cutting, he doesn't launch a 3 with no conscience unless he's wide open and no one is coming to bother him, he doesn't set screens for others, etc. He's one of the least useful players in that group. I think he played with the ball all his career and playing without the ball just doesn't suit him. Might be too old to adapt. Manu plays off the ball better, he cuts, he screens, he can shoot the 3, he has a good sense of when to come in and help a ball handler in trouble through a cut for example. Tony doesn't do any of that.

Kawhi gets the heat as he should bc he's an MVP candidate but Pop needs to get an above average passer in that group to help out. I believe that is what he had in mind with Pau, but unfortunately him being like the statue of liberty on defense got him sent to the bench.

They just have flaws and Kawhi has tried to compensate for everything but he could really use a PG with a better court vision and off the ball play will help them out more. Maybe Murray is that guy in the future. One can hope.

[dabom]

Sagirl gets it here. Pop would love to go back to 2014. Everyone would. Including kawhi. The problem is those players are old and can't do it anymore. You need to be able to attack the basket. Green Manu and Tony can't do that anymore. When we do it looks tragic and a pile of shit. I can't believe no one has told Pop why we can't go back to 2014 team ball movement. :lol

[SAGirl]

People don't fucking get it. A star PG would only fix the problem in the sense that the non-Kawhi half of the offense would be better. It won't actually make the Kawhi half better. I feel like it's been years now that the Spurs have had these same problems with Kawhiso, and so many posters ignore it.

It very obviously hurts the D to have a wing so low for most possessions. When Kawhi makes his shots, it's easier to adjust to the poor defensive spacing. But in a game like last night where he misses or turns it over repeatedly, it consistently gets the Spurs in bad positions. You need two perimeter players above the FTLE to have defensive integrity, and too often, Kawhiso leads to either four players below the line or a big and a small as the above-FTLE players. This lack of integrity is the primary reason why continues to have a horrible defensive on-off.

There are games where everybody else sucks and Kawhi has to keep pounding the rock. But this wasn't one of those games. Leonard has to understand that sometimes he doesn't have the hot hand and that he needs to find the guys who do. Tim, Tony and Manu all understand/understood that and gave the ball to role-players at times even at the expense of their own touches. Kawhi has to develop that level of understanding to be the type of stars those guys were.

This is also on Pop, because independent of Kawhi's decision-making, Pop should have run plays for other guys. I don't know if he ran any non-OOB play all night. He tries to take control at really pointless times, but then when the team is floundering, he seems to be unable to do anything past benching guys (even if those guys aren't the particular problem). I want to say he's just saving up plays for the WCF, but as we all know, the Spurs may well not even get there.
You make a lot of interesting points here. Not only Tim, Tony and Manu, other HoF players like Lebron for example also pass the ball to teammates recognizing better options all the time. If Lebron didn't have that talent he would just be a freak athlete... but it's how smart he is on the court that makes him so dangerous IMO (coupled with all of his other physical gifts and talents of course). I think Kawhi is still growing as a player and learning from situations like this (I hope).

I also think Pop sometimes lets guys out there to see what they do. Sometimes he's a spectator, maybe he gave them a plan and wanted to see how they executed what he planned without constant direction. He is more involved at times, but there are games or moments he just sits back. The 1 seed wasn't as important as the growth and learning opportunity. I want to think Pop still has that fire in his belly and that an observant passive Pop like we saw last night at moments is just a Pop that is learning (the CIA Pop?) and will adapt. I don't want to think Pop is done either.

[skulls138]

We definitely need ball movement or theres no use even trying. Kawhi really forced the issue with being ISO last night. Understandable considering the great D of GSW but even with that he went overboard and should have tried to remain calm amid the storm. I agree with SAGirl that KL has been passing the ball alot more lately and thats great but he should have tried a little harder to pass last night. When it gets to be nervous time instinct says dont pass, do it yourself and thats the challenge, to believe in your teammates when you want to take over. Its a battle of composure as much as anything. Having said that KL was trying to drive to the hoop in order to open things up not be selfish necessarily.

I think the biggest disappointment was Parker. Yes he doesnt have what he used to but we still need what he CAN give. Seemed like when things were in the balance he admitted to himself that he wasnt up to the challenge. He still couldve driven and passed or if missed we could crash the glass.

I thought we did good up until D West did what he did. He single handedly took away what was supposed to be our advantage which was size and strength.

I still feel we have the blueprint to beat GSW but we have to win the battle of hustle and composure.

[DMC]

Why did Kevin Durant join a talented team to join an even more talented team?

Why join a non-talented team, so he can struggle more to get a ring? He could have done that anywhere.

[DMC]

People don't fucking get it. A star PG would only fix the problem in the sense that the non-Kawhi half of the offense would be better. It won't actually make the Kawhi half better. I feel like it's been years now that the Spurs have had these same problems with Kawhiso, and so many posters ignore it.

It very obviously hurts the D to have a wing so low for most possessions. When Kawhi makes his shots, it's easier to adjust to the poor defensive spacing. But in a game like last night where he misses or turns it over repeatedly, it consistently gets the Spurs in bad positions. You need two perimeter players above the FTLE to have defensive integrity, and too often, Kawhiso leads to either four players below the line or a big and a small as the above-FTLE players. This lack of integrity is the primary reason why continues to have a horrible defensive on-off.

There are games where everybody else sucks and Kawhi has to keep pounding the rock. But this wasn't one of those games. Leonard has to understand that sometimes he doesn't have the hot hand and that he needs to find the guys who do. Tim, Tony and Manu all understand/understood that and gave the ball to role-players at times even at the expense of their own touches. Kawhi has to develop that level of understanding to be the type of stars those guys were.

This is also on Pop, because independent of Kawhi's decision-making, Pop should have run plays for other guys. I don't know if he ran any non-OOB play all night. He tries to take control at really pointless times, but then when the team is floundering, he seems to be unable to do anything past benching guys (even if those guys aren't the particular problem). I want to say he's just saving up plays for the WCF, but as we all know, the Spurs may well not even get there.

If there was a star PG who was a legit scoring threat from outside and who could attack the paint, it would make the Kawhi part of the offense better because it reduces the amount of defense the other team and assign to Kawhi. That same principle is why the Warriors are so hard to guard. It's not a paradigm shift, old as the game itself. Better players make players better.

[Chinook]

If there was a star PG who was a legit scoring threat from outside and who could attack the paint, it would make the Kawhi part of the offense better because it reduces the amount of defense the other team and assign to Kawhi. That same principle is why the Warriors are so hard to guard. It's not a paradigm shift, old as the game itself. Better players make players better.

The point is that it has nothing to do with Kawhi's skill level or success rate. So long as he keep shooting from those parts of the floor, the team will be at the mercy of his FG%. Him being able to score from his spots if not an issue right now, and it would be at best marginally improved with a better PG.

You're correct in that teams couldn't double him as much if there were some star guard who split the offense with Kawhi. I'm not arguing that. But Kawhi didn't use 28 possessions because his supporting cast sucked.

[dabom]

Kawhi lost a game and all ya bitch like little faggots. Literally 1 game all year. That's it. :lol

[dabom]

If anything, this game is an outlier for all ya stat nerds. :lmao

[skulls138]

But Kawhi has been passing more so dont think he really wants to play the ISO game as much as he feels he needs to because someones got to attract the double team to create the open shooter. LAs post game is very unrefined, the only thing hes really good at is shooting. If we had a more dangerous PG, Im sure Kawhi would have no problem letting him control things more.

[UZER]

Kawhi lost a game and all ya bitch like little faggots. Literally 1 game all year. That's it. :lol

Yeah I dont get the Kawhi bashing. Pop still wants to run Parker and Manu out there as major contributors of this team.

[gambit1990]

He's still a top 3 player, but he needs a backcourt player who is near his equal offensively, like an Isaiah Thomas.
so you're saying he needs someone better than tony parker... the same tony parker that you made threads so you can rave about him?

you have no foresight.


So...the take-home message of this thread is, "If we had a star PG we'd be a better team."

How fucking insightful.

[gambit1990]

Yeah I dont get the Kawhi bashing. Pop still wants to run Parker and Manu out there as major contributors of this team.