Woj: Zach Collins Agrees to 3-Yr, $22M Deal with Spurs

[BackHome]

I wonder if when doing surgery on ankle did they do anything else with his foot a lot of times on a second break there is a reason as in the foots position is wrong - they might shave some of the heel bone or do other things to make sure the foot is properly aligned - With this injury I would be shocked if he is playing NBA ball by December as being with the Spurs I doubt they will want to fast track him to play

[Sugus]

So it looks like the only reason for signing Dieng late in the year was to have an extra big just in case the Spurs made the playoffs... interesting. If they didn't have a playoff run in mind, it seems like it would've made sense to just give those minutes to Eubanks for experience. I guess a couple months of a minimum contract isn't any kind of a risk financially, but I'd love to hear the conversation the FO had when the topic first came up.

Eh, I really think they wanted to bring Dieng back/into the team for good, not only for last season's possible run, especially considering his long/good relationship with RC. But seeing that he went to a contending team, it's far easier to imagine he looked at Atlanta's team and recent playoff run, and then looked at the Spurs' projected roster for next season... And thought to himself, RC hasn't helped Africa enough for me to make such a sacrifice, after all :lol

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/spurs/status/1425634626286981126

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/chase_shannon/status/1425637644319535106

[DPG21920]

So POR let’s him go for nothing…

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/TheTyJager/status/1425639364860723204

https://twitter.com/TheTyJager/status/1425637571024019457

[DPG21920]

Need them contract deets ASAP. If he’s healthy I’m good with him as a player and gamble but hopefully they didn’t pay the Primo price for that gamble.

[ace3g]

https://twitter.com/DanWeissPBP/status/1425640281190322180

[CGD]

I’ve been consistent on this and will stay the course: I like this signing.

Worthy gamble on a player that had been playing great before injury.

[widowmaker]

https://twitter.com/spurs/status/1425634626286981126


He looks sad. Maybe his ankles still hurt. What a fucking joke.

[Atl Spur]

Eh, I really think they wanted to bring Dieng back/into the team for good, not only for last season's possible run, especially considering his long/good relationship with RC. But seeing that he went to a contending team, it's far easier to imagine he looked at Atlanta's team and recent playoff run, and then looked at the Spurs' projected roster for next season... And thought to himself, RC hasn't helped Africa enough for me to make such a sacrifice, after all :lol

Yo that’s classic! ��������

[tbdog]

Eh, I really think they wanted to bring Dieng back/into the team for good, not only for last season's possible run, especially considering his long/good relationship with RC. But seeing that he went to a contending team, it's far easier to imagine he looked at Atlanta's team and recent playoff run, and then looked at the Spurs' projected roster for next season... And thought to himself, RC hasn't helped Africa enough for me to make such a sacrifice, after all :lol

The big Aussie has similar skill set but younger.

[ace3g]

CSdOruaLAP3

[Chinook]

With this being reported as a straight signing, the Spurs officially have no cap space as of right now. They could still create a couple million by withdrawing KBD's QO and waiting Eubanks. They could create more by stretching AFA or trading guys for less incoming salary. But likely Forbes and SOB get signed very soon, which basically locks the Spurs into being over the cap for the year.

It also suggests that KBD isn't getting a long-term deal and that Wieskamp isn't signing a better-than-min deal. Both of those are a shame, honestly. The Spurs did a good job leveraging cap space with the Hutch deal, but locking in end-of-rotation players to long-term, uber-cheap deals is one of the advantages of having cap space.

[BatManu20]

IF he manages to stay relatively healthy, then it’s a great signing tbh. The guy is skilled and mobile. I don’t trust those ankles though.

[Dejounte]

Let’s play around with the idea that he is healthy for most of the duration of his contract.

is he pretty much what we expected Samanic to be? Tall, versatile on defense, gives energy?

[DPG21920]

Min deal or part of BAE (was answer to Dejounte who asked how to sign Jock/Forbes

[Uriel]

Anyone have access to this article: https://theathletic.com/2709729/2021/07/15/free-agent-zach-collins-and-his-long-road-back-its-going-to-be-a-great-story/

https://twitter.com/EricSal_7/status/1422765319605600256

https://twitter.com/EricSal_7/status/1422764208500973570

https://twitter.com/AssassinateHate/status/1422759098773295104
Wow. This makes me feel so much better about this signing.

If years 2 and 3 are nonguaranteed and he returns to pre-injury form, this could easily end up being one of the more underrated signings of the offseason.

[Fusternino]

Could KBD be back on a two-way?

[Chinook]

Wow. This makes me feel so much better about this signing.

If years 2 and 3 are nonguaranteed and he returns to pre-injury form, this could easily end up being one of the more underrated signings of the offseason.

The issue is, Healthy Zach Collins is worth this deal, maybe. He wasn't a very good player when he was healthy. He'll have to stay on the court, and somehow get better at playing basketball while he's there in order for this to be a steal. We're talking about a guy who hasn't been as good as Drew Eubanks even when he has played. The potential is probably still there, but it was at best a huge risk with a lot less upside than these tweets would suggest.

[Chinook]

Could KBD be back on a two-way?

Nah. He's not two-way eligible. Neither is Hutch if guys were wondering. Wieskamp and Jeffries are.

[timvp]

I’ve been consistent on this and will stay the course: I like this signing.

Worthy gamble on a player that had been playing great before injury.

In theory, if there were a 23-year-old player who used to be great that was sidelined by multiple injuries, I'd like for the rebuilding Spurs to sign that theoretical player. The problem is Collins was never even that good. A big man prospect with zero double-doubles in his career, a career PER of 10.8 (it'd be tough to find a four-year big with a lower career PER; even Cristiano Felicio, the poster boy of bad contract bigs, has a career PER of 14) and a net-negative career plus/minus. On top of that, his main asset pre-injury was his mobility and now he's broken the same bone in his ankle three times. Is it fair to expect his mobility to return even if that ankle bone actually heals this time?

Big picture-wise, I'm glad the Spurs made this type of gamble. It's the exact type of gamble rebuilding teams should make: buying low on a young, distressed asset with extra cap room and roster flexibility. But Collins, specifically, just isn't that appealing. He was never good, much less great. The best you can say was he was a unique, interesting prospect whose career got derailed before he could show what he could do. If the second and third years are unguaranteed then, fine, whatev, a no-harm, no-foul gamble with cap space that would have otherwise gone to a limited vet on a rental.

[Uriel]

C: Poeltl / Landale / Eubanks
PF: Young / Collins / Samanic
SF: Johnson / McDermott / Vassell
SG: White / Walker / Primo
PG: Murray / Jones / Forbes

Not bad. Not bad at all. The roster is looking more balanced than in previous seasons.

[DPG21920]

Ya it’s not a gamble if you paid him fully guaranteed lol

[GAustex]

He was good not great at Gonzaga.
To me early in his career he was young and got taken advantage of due to lack of strength and know how.
Young bigs often take a while to blossom.
Maybe just maybe.

[Chinook]

Basically I see Collins as the bad version of trading a second for KPJ last year. Taking a flier on an uber-talented scorer when your team is going to be low on offense in future years? Yes. Paying at least market value for a guy with a ton of injuries? Like, why? Eubanks is a better player and is basically the same age signed to a great deal. This trade legit imperils his roster spot. Landale is an intriguing prospect that you only signed for two years. Why bring him over and then push him to the fringe of the rotation? If Collins were a legit PF prospect, I could see it. But he's a center. It's not a position where you can afford to use too many roster spots, and given how they were already planning on trading Young/Aminu, were likely talking to Landale and had interest in Forbes, they shouldn't've been looking at their roster and thinking they had the spot for an IR guy who at best is going to be worth his contract.

[Degoat]

ZC has definitely grown on me, IF he returns to his previous form we have a really talented young big on the squad. Hopefully between him or Jock they can replace Jakob eventually

[ace3g]

Here you go...

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1339319295457812481/e4_qfo3e_normal.jpg
Bobby Marks (https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42)Bob (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=9095)byMarks42
2m (https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/1425663063160655872)
Breakdown of the Zach Collins contract in San Antonio:
2021-22- $7M (full guarantee)
2022-23- $7.35M (50% guaranteed)
2023-24- $7.7M ($0 guaranteed)
Total guarantee is $10.675M This is a sold contract for both San Antonio and Collins.

[Chinook]

Obviously could've been worse. But it's upsetting they do Drew the way they did with this signing. He's been a far better player than Zach, even ignoring injuries. He shouldn't be at risk of getting cut because PATFO decided to pay a worse player way more to play his position.

[timvp]

Let’s play around with the idea that he is healthy for most of the duration of his contract.

is he pretty much what we expected Samanic to be? Tall, versatile on defense, gives energy?

I'd say they're somewhat similar. Collins is taller, longer and has a natural feel for the game. Samanic is more athletic in all areas (pre-injuries, Collins was maybe tied with him quickness-wise) and has more upside in terms of perimeter skills (passing, dribbling, playmaking). Basically, Collins is Samanic but with a much higher floor (if healthy, at worst he's a mobile big with just enough offensive game to be playable; Samanic isn't an NBA player at his lower outcomes) but a lower ceiling (Samanic is unlikely to reach his ceiling but it's sky high).

The best way to think of a great Collins outcome if he's healthy is that he becomes a skinnier, weaker Poeltl with a jumper and more fluidity on offense but not as good of defensive instincts.

[timvp]

Here you go...

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1339319295457812481/e4_qfo3e_normal.jpg
Bobby Marks (https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42)Bob (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=9095)byMarks42
2m (https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/1425663063160655872)
Breakdown of the Zach Collins contract in San Antonio:
2021-22- $7M (full guarantee)
2022-23- $7.35M (50% guaranteed)
2023-24- $7.7M ($0 guaranteed)
Total guarantee is $10.675M This is a sold contract for both San Antonio and Collins.

Ehhhhhhh. I was hoping for 33% guaranteed. Turned out to be 48.5% guaranteed. A $10 million gamble that you find Poeltl 2.0? Uh, I mean, I guess that's fine but a really weird gamble, IMO. You can find interesting bigs on the waiver wire -- it's tough to say what Collins has that makes him so interesting that you invest this much in him. For example, Jock Landale was way more interesting as a prospect and he's going to make less -- possibly a lot less.

[DPG21920]

This is typical Spurs. Not good enough to celebrate but not bad enough to be a real landmine and this year doesn’t matter. Eating only 3.7M next year is no biggie if needed but still. This is where the FO has been; nothing that gives you confidence but avoids making you completely hate them

[objective]

Zero doubt for me that Sengun will have more double doubles as a rookie than Zollins in his entire career

Waiting on the Jock and Forbes deals to give the Spurs a complete off season game 3, but it's looking like an F from me dawg

[Uriel]

This is typical Spurs. Not good enough to celebrate but not bad enough to be a real landmine and this year doesn’t matter. Eating only 3.7M next year is no biggie if needed but still. This is where the FO has been; nothing that gives you confidence but avoids making you completely hate them
Yup. That’s where I am too. I reject the sniffer vs exhaler dichotomy that’s been showing up on this board. The world isn’t black or white; reality is much more nuanced.

[Dejounte]

Ehhhhhhh. I was hoping for 33% guaranteed. Turned out to be 48.5% guaranteed. A $10 million gamble that you find Poeltl 2.0? Uh, I mean, I guess that's fine but a really weird gamble, IMO. You can find interesting bigs on the waiver wire -- it's tough to say what Collins has that makes him so interesting that you invest this much in him. For example, Jock Landale was way more interesting as a prospect and he's going to make less -- possibly a lot less.

IMO, only one of Samanic and Eubanks will be on the roster by opening night.

if Eubanks stays, then the Spurs view Collins’ role differently than what you describe here and he’s a 4.

if Samanic stays, then they’re betting on two pipeline players to battle it out for the future of the backup 4 position (or starter 4).

[timvp]

Eubanks is a better player and is basically the same age signed to a great deal.

Per minute, Eubanks averages more points, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, assists, steals and blocks than Collins. Eubanks also gets to the line more often, shoots for a higher percentage from everywhere and fouls less often.

The pluses for Collins are that he *checks notes* shoots 32.4% from three while shooting them less frequently than Keldon or Dejounte.

[Chinook]

Per minute, Eubanks averages more points, offensive rebounds, defensive rebounds, assists, steals and blocks than Collins. Eubanks also gets to the line more often, shoots for a higher percentage from everywhere and fouls less often.

The pluses for Collins are that he *checks notes* shoots 32.4% from three while shooting them less frequently than Keldon or Dejounte.

Yeah, it's not close. Drew has his problems and wasn't necessary for the roster, but he should've been competing either with a solid vet like Dieng or a rookie-scale center with eventual starter potential. He basically has no chance to actually win this competition, even though he's extremely likely to deserve to win it. The best he can hope for (assuming being sent elsewhere isn't actually what he prefers) is for the Spurs to follow the trend they set with Jimmer and be willing to eat dead money to keep the best players. Waiving Collins wouldn't be very different than waiving Carroll. But, like, shit -- that's not something to do twice. Even Collins being a PF doesn't fix the issue because Keldon and Johnson are there, and Samanic should get a chance to be in the rotation and not pushed aside for a guy who wasn't very good. It also completely shuts KBD out of the rotation and off the team, and Keita has been a better player than Collins too.

Just a really weird, gun-jumping move by PATFO. They had to have already been in contact with Landale before Collins. Unless they know a center is going out in an upcoming trade, the whole way they attacked that position this off-season doesn't make sense.

[timvp]

If Collins were a legit PF prospect, I could see it. But he's a center. It's not a position where you can afford to use too many roster spots

This is a key question: Can Collins play PF? I know he was drafted as a PF but things have changed even since he got drafted. "Stretch bigs" at PF have been replaced by big wings who have slid up to PF. So, in this environment, can Collins play PF?

I wouldn't close the door on it yet. Post-thrice-ankle-snappage, he's most likely a center whether he wants to be or not. But if he can retain most of his quickness, I can imagine him possibly being a PF. But it'd have to be next to a center who is an offensive threat. Collins is a 4th or 5th option on the court. You can't him next to a center who is also a 4th or 5th option. Poeltl and Collins together could be good on defense but they don't have enough firepower on offense for that to be a workable, long-term pairing, for example. Other teams would just go small and the Poeltl/Collins combo wouldn't have the wherewithal to make them pay.

[objective]

If Zollins had been undrafted and coming off these injuries then the Spurs would treat him like Kevin Pittsnogle

[rankingtear]

Obviously could've been worse. But it's upsetting they do Drew the way they did with this signing. He's been a far better player than Zach, even ignoring injuries. He shouldn't be at risk of getting cut because PATFO decided to pay a worse player way more to play his position.

Doubt it. Collins in his second year is already a major contributor to a WCF team. He was a big reason they made it past DEN in 2019.

[Dejounte]

^Keita played zero minutes at the PF position last year.

[Cardinal]

I’m not too worried as long as there’s still a strong chance that the Spurs are not gambling on Collins becoming a good long term fit on the roster but rather becoming a valuable asset to be traded to help with the rebuild. Look at how they took the risk with Gay coming off of his serious injury. He rehabilitated himself physically and improved his value on the court. The Spurs were trying to contend at the time so they kept him around, but in an alternate universe (as many here advocated) Gay could have been flipped for draft capital. Collins can bring value back if he demonstrates he can play at a high level again. I don’t see much risk here but a lot of upside

[DPG21920]

Side Note: not that it’s a big deal but why the hell did SA hard cap themselves unnecessarily with Doug for no asset if they weren’t going to S&T Collins too? Makes little sense.

[Chinook]

Doubt it. Collins in his second year is already a major contributor to a WCF team. He was a big reason they made it past DEN in 2019.

Nah, it's not even close. Collins sucks. Forbes had a great series against Denver too. The Nuggets are just like that.

[Chinook]

Side Note: not that it’s a big deal but why the hell did SA hard cap themselves unnecessarily with Doug for no asset if they weren’t going to S&T Collins too? Makes little sense.

Trading for McDermott was stupid, no doubt. But unless Portland was going to actually pay, there wasn't an inherent reason to trade for Collins. The Spurs would've had to give up something to make the deal legal, and I don't see why spending cash or worse further encumbering a pick would've been beneficial to them. There were combinations of the moves they committed to that would've allowed them to get Collins while preserving cap space. But a deal like McD got wasn't that.

[Degoat]

Y’all are sleeping on Collins tbh huge injury concerns but if he’s healthy he’s going to be great for the squad.

[Degoat]

Y’all are sleeping on Collins tbh huge injury concerns but if he’s healthy he’s going to be great for the squad.

[Chinook]

^Keita played zero minutes at the PF position last year.

Basically if Collins is a center, then Eubanks makes the most sense to get rid of. If he's a forward, KBD makes the most sense. How some scorers designated positions doesn't change that.

[KobesAchilles]

Yeah the dude isn’t going to play for us this year. I hope he plays well next year though.

[DPG21920]

Trading for McDermott was stupid, no doubt. But unless Portland was going to actually pay, there wasn't an inherent reason to trade for Collins. The Spurs would've had to give up something to make the deal legal, and I don't see why spending cash or worse further encumbering a pick would've been beneficial to them. There were combinations of the moves they committed to that would've allowed them to get Collins while preserving cap space. But a deal like McD got wasn't that.

No agree. I’m saying they had to know POr wasn’t going to pay for the ability to get a TE right? In my mind you don’t do the Doug trade unless you already have Collins trade worked out.

Definitely don’t do 2 doug deals just for sake of it. But that’s the point; how do you do Doug deal if you don’t already have the other done?

[slick'81]

Love the way spurs constructed this deal

[Dejounte]

Ever since the draft, this website hasn’t been the same. Refreshing takes forever + frequent double posting from everybody

Servers need to be restarted? timvp

[Mugen]

I'm counting 7 guys (Jak, Dougie, Thad, Collins, Eubanks, Samanic, Jock) for the 4 and 5 spot this upcoming season.

Any other front office and I'd be expecting a trade but i wouldn't be surprised if that dumbass Brian genuinely forgot about a few guys
I also completely expect Pop to roll out the stupidest possible rotations. Like it'd make sense to see what you have in Luka and Jock this upcoming year so I'm assuming they'll naturally be shafted out of any rotation minutes.

Collins was such a retarded signing, par for PATFO :lol

[timvp]

If Zollins had been undrafted and coming off these injuries then the Spurs would treat him like Kevin Pittsnogle

:lol That funny -- and probably not inaccurate, tbh.

Collins' main selling points:

-He's a former lottery pick
-He's a great towel waver and has entertaining bench reactions
-He has no character red flags (CREAM Team certified)
-Gritty, gutty, scrappy, plays the game the right way, possession receiver type

If Eubanks was the lottery pick and Collins was the undrafted player, Eubanks would be considering a job at HEB to make ends meet, tbh. The lottery shine got Collins $10 million.

I mean, I liked Collins in his draft. Great length, great mobility and he shot damn near 50% on threes (though it was a low sample size). I paid close attention to him in Portland because I was interested in seeing what happened to a draft prospect I was high on. But, man, he never really put it together and then his ankle exploded (after he had that labrum injury, which can also be a career-derailing injury in itself).

Strange, strange gamble. Obviously I hope it works out but I struggle to see why the Spurs decided to gamble on him of all players.

[Chinook]

No agree. I’m saying they had to know POr wasn’t going to pay for the ability to get a TE right? In my mind you don’t do the Doug trade unless you already have Collins trade worked out.

Definitely don’t do 2 doug deals just for sake of it. But that’s the point; how do you do Doug deal if you don’t already have the other done?

The problem wasn't doing the McD trade. It was being too cheap to just send cash to preserve the pick and/or not getting a real asset for the TE. If Indy was willing to pay and Portland wasn't or vice versa, it makes legit sense to do just one trade. Or if the Spurs had been able to wrap a Collins or McD trade into a bigger deal, then just doing one makes sense. But honestly, there's no reason to believe that doing one should've suggested the team was going to do the other. S&Ting like Chicago did is one thing. But the Spurs would've had to try hard to stay over the cap, including paying teams to make moves like Mills or Gay into S&Ts. McD was bad value, but even if the value was good, it still wouldn't've made a further Collins trade worse. In that same regard, there was probably a good Collins trade that would've remained good even within the reality that the McD deal was bad and shouldn't've been made.

[urunobili]

I have always liked Collins game, personally. Hopefully he pans out.

[timvp]

Ever since the draft, this website hasn’t been the same. Refreshing takes forever + frequent double posting from everybody

Servers need to be restarted? timvp

Yeah, trying to figure out why the Primo pick killed the server. Hopefully will get it fixed soon.

[objective]

Watching YouTube videos of Zollins is not encouraging.

He never 'pops' off the screen to me. He's a big, well, stiff.

He doesn't look like a stiff he just plays like one. Not a plus at anything. Especially with the ankle.

Eubanks has better clips.

I have much more confidence that Samanic can be a good player, and I'm no Samanic fan. He's always been bs fake shooter with T-Rex arms. But he is a lot more limber than I've seen from Zollins. And if Samanic moves better and is quicker up and down, then I don't think there's anything Zollins does better, especially on that ankle.

But I expect Samanic to be gone tbh, Zollins will get chances if cleared.

[pad300]

I'm counting 7 guys (Jak, Dougie, Thad, Collins, Eubanks, Samanic, Jock) for the 4 and 5 spot this upcoming season.
...

I only have 6. Dougie a) doesn't rebound enough to be a 4, b) isn't big enough to be a 4, and c) can't defend against a 4's strength (admittedly, he can't defend a 3's quickness either, but...). I think Dougie's a 3 on this roster.

[PhantomDashCam]

It’s weird to me that Spurs social media is making a big deal of this signing…
Everything about him is theoretical.

Zollins: “Young guys running around…Guys going fast…”
Not sure if he’s excited or intimidated by that tbh based on his reactions in the video. Probably envious…

Jock and Eubanks better get a fair shake at it this year.

[timvp]

Anyone have access to this article: https://theathletic.com/2709729/2021/07/15/free-agent-zach-collins-and-his-long-road-back-its-going-to-be-a-great-story/

https://twitter.com/EricSal_7/status/1422765319605600256

https://twitter.com/EricSal_7/status/1422764208500973570

https://twitter.com/AssassinateHate/status/1422759098773295104

That's basically an agent fed puff piece. The interesting tidbits are there in the tweets.

Of course Collins and his agent are going to say his third surgery went extremely well (the stitches are healing great!!!1!) and that he'll be back ASAP as he's heading into free agency. In reality, his second and third setbacks came out of the blue (he was barely doing anything when the bone snapped) and the Spurs are going to be very cautious. Collins missing the entire season sounds likely to me. Rushing him back when a fourth setback would probably end his career is unlikely, IMO.

[NASpurs]

I'm counting 7 guys (Jak, Dougie, Thad, Collins, Eubanks, Samanic, Jock) for the 4 and 5 spot this upcoming season.

Any other front office and I'd be expecting a trade but i wouldn't be surprised if that dumbass Brian genuinely forgot about a few guys
I also completely expect Pop to roll out the stupidest possible rotations. Like it'd make sense to see what you have in Luka and Jock this upcoming year so I'm assuming they'll naturally be shafted out of any rotation minutes.

Collins was such a retarded signing, par for PATFO :lol

To me it’s a fucking retarded signing because the guy might not play next year. I’m tired of this team running a Make-A-Wish Foundation.

[slick'81]

To me it’s a fucking retarded signing because the guy might not play next year. I’m tired of this team running a Make-A-Wish Foundation.

He def has a punchable face

[rankingtear]

Nah, it's not even close. Collins sucks. Forbes had a great series against Denver too. The Nuggets are just like that.

He was already starting for POR at the 4 before injuries. Eubanks can't even provide 4 good minutes at the backup 5 in a play in game. Why is this even a discussion, they brought in 2-3 guys that can play his spot.

[duncan2150]

Watching YouTube videos of Zollins is not encouraging.

He never 'pops' off the screen to me. He's a big, well, stiff.

He doesn't look like a stiff he just plays like one. Not a plus at anything. Especially with the ankle.

Eubanks has better clips.

I have much more confidence that Samanic can be a good player, and I'm no Samanic fan. He's always been bs fake shooter with T-Rex arms. But he is a lot more limber than I've seen from Zollins. And if Samanic moves better and is quicker up and down, then I don't think there's anything Zollins does better, especially on that ankle.

But I expect Samanic to be gone tbh, Zollins will get chances if cleared.

Are you serious ? eubanks with better clips ? I don't know what you watch but watching Collins with Gonzaga or Portland ( really good during the run in the PO 4 years ago) it's not the same kind of basketball compared to drew or luka. He looks way better than both.

The question is his health, the risk is there more than on his profile. Still the contract is well structured so not a bad deal imo.

[duncan2150]

He was already starting for POR at the 4 before injuries. Eubanks can't even provide 4 good minutes at the backup 5 in a play in game. Why is this even a discussion, they brought in 2-3 guys that can play his spot.


Maybe he is talking about another Collins lol or he missed a lot of his games ( not saying he is really good but saying he sucks is strange, mostly when you say the contrary about forbes...)

[objective]

Are you serious ? eubanks with better clips ? I don't know what you watch but watching Collins with Gonzaga or Portland ( really good during the run in the PO 4 years ago) it's not the same kind of basketball compared to drew or luka. He looks way better than both.

The question is his health, the risk is there more than on his profile. Still the contract is well structured so not a bad deal imo.

Yes, I'm serious.

This guy got charity starts after Portland was getting killed for passing on Bam. 12 career starts, 1 double digit scoring game of 11 points. Shot 33% from 3. No big deal, Portland was trying to salvage value for a bad pick, happens all the time.

Why should anyone celebrate a starting big getting 7 points a game, with half a block and half a steal and 1 free throw a game in 26 minutes?

Collins is a hasn't really done anything ever and I'm not expecting anything moreso now that he hasn't literally run for over 12 months and has a bum able ankle.

Eubanks has better career stats as a starter. Check their o-ratings and d-ratings. What's so impressive about Collins if he wasn't a lottery pick who went to Gonzaga?

And I'll join timvp, that Athletic article was pure puffery.

I remember when Charles Smith had ankle surgery in the off-season and the positive talk in the express news afterwards. "Oh, doctors went in and discovered scar tissue was restricting his mobility by 90%! But they cleaned it all up and just wait until you see him next season! Spurs fans will finally see the potential of who they traded for, the real Charles Smith!"

He never played again.

Times are different with medical advances, but I'm fine being very skeptical.

[CGD]

Here you go...

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1339319295457812481/e4_qfo3e_normal.jpg
Bobby Marks (https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42)Bob (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=9095)byMarks42
2m (https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/1425663063160655872)
Breakdown of the Zach Collins contract in San Antonio:
2021-22- $7M (full guarantee)
2022-23- $7.35M (50% guaranteed)
2023-24- $7.7M ($0 guaranteed)
Total guarantee is $10.675M This is a sold contract for both San Antonio and Collins.

Does this make people feel better now? At this salary structure it’s a no brainer to me.

[duncan2150]

Yes, I'm serious.

This guy got charity starts after Portland was getting killed for passing on Bam. 12 career starts, 1 double digit scoring game of 11 points. Shot 33% from 3. No big deal, Portland was trying to salvage value for a bad pick, happens all the time.

Why should anyone celebrate a starting big getting 7 points a game, with half a block and half a steal and 1 free throw a game in 26 minutes?

Collins is a hasn't really done anything ever and I'm not expecting anything moreso now that he hasn't literally run for over 12 months and has a bum able ankle.

Eubanks has better career stats as a starter. Check their o-ratings and d-ratings. What's so impressive about Collins if he wasn't a lottery pick who went to Gonzaga?

And I'll join timvp, that Athletic article was pure puffery.

I remember when Charles Smith had ankle surgery in the off-season and the positive talk in the express news afterwards. "Oh, doctors went in and discovered scar tissue was restricting his mobility by 90%! But they cleaned it all up and just wait until you see him next season! Spurs fans will finally see the potential of who they traded for, the real Charles Smith!"

He never played again.

Times are different with medical advances, but I'm fine being very skeptical.


The point is saying Samanic , Eubanks are looking better that's just the contrary for me. Collins is or was a way better player than both, maybe samanic can reach his ceilling one day, we'll see.

We just have a tottaly different opinion on him, that's fine. Imo a healthy Collins could be a good addition, i don't care about the report of his rehab.

[mo7888]

I'm not down on this signing at all myself. The protections are reasonable and i don't see a better gamble out there.

[objective]

The point is saying Samanic , Eubanks are looking better that's just the contrary for me. Collins is or was a way better player than both, maybe samanic can reach his ceilling one day, we'll see.

We just have a tottaly different opinion on him, that's fine. Imo a healthy Collins could be a good addition, i don't care about the report of his rehab.

I can only go on revisiting the clips on youtube, I don't have any games dvr'd or ripped of his

And yeah, if i want a big to move his feet on the perimeter, I think Samanic is someone I have a lot more confidence in. He can't shoot and is a turnover machine with a questionable attitude. But I think he moves better and would trust him more on defense.

Eubanks has other strengths. And I'm not a big Eubanks fan either. Milutinov would make him look like the third stringer he is. But I just think he has more pop than Zollins.

[spurraider21]

Does this make people feel better now? At this salary structure it’s a no brainer to me.
No.

Id rather just have kept Dieng

[Chinook]

He was already starting for POR at the 4 before injuries. Eubanks can't even provide 4 good minutes at the backup 5 in a play in game. Why is this even a discussion, they brought in 2-3 guys that can play his spot.

He was starting because Portland started him, not because he was good. Folks have to accept that all NBA players have talent. Every single one of them. Even at what you're considering his height, he was a below-average, net-negative player. Drew is better on both sides of the court and has a better contract. Again, it's not close.

[Chinook]

That's basically an agent fed puff piece. The interesting tidbits are there in the tweets.

Of course Collins and his agent are going to say his third surgery went extremely well (the stitches are healing great!!!1!) and that he'll be back ASAP as he's heading into free agency. In reality, his second and third setbacks came out of the blue (he was barely doing anything when the bone snapped) and the Spurs are going to be very cautious. Collins missing the entire season sounds likely to me. Rushing him back when a fourth setback would probably end his career is unlikely, IMO.

Depends on the way the guarantee is structured. If Collins can go into 2022-2023 without guaranteeing the entire year, the Spurs might do as you say. If they have to make a decision on him before the end of next season, he'll probably be back in time to let them see him play first.

[acoelho1]

I remember there was a lot of buzz on Collins after his first couple of years and he has an intriguing skillset for guy his size. Like the Primo pick, the Spurs are taking more calculated risks on players with potential. The guarantees are fine and perhaps could have been slightly lower but nothing to be upset about. This new strategy of going younger and finding players they like with upside seems to be a good plan. Time will tell.

This year will be the best version of the Spurs in years without LMA or DDR and their antiquated game. I'm not saying they will have more wins but it will definitely be a better product and aesthetically pleasing on the floor.

[rankingtear]

He was starting because Portland started him, not because he was good. Folks have to accept that all NBA players have talent. Every single one of them. Even at what you're considering his height, he was a below-average, net-negative player. Drew is better on both sides of the court and has a better contract. Again, it's not close.

He earned the start. He swang a playoff series and had a good preseason. This is a 2 position big that can protect the rim. Drew is strictly a 5 and does not know what is happening on the floor half the time. Compare Drew to other rim running back up bigs and see how he stacks up.

[Chinook]

He earned the start. He swang a playoff series and had a good preseason. This is a 2 position big that can protect the rim. Drew is strictly a 5 and does not know what is happening on the floor half the time. Compare Drew to other rim running back up bigs and see how he stacks up.

Drew compares well, actually. He's closer to Boucher than he is to dregs like Collins.

[The Truth #6]

Wow. Nice to see some unexpected love for Drew, albeit at Zach’s expense. From the little I’ve seen of Zach I’d say he passes the eyeball test better, has better form on his jumper, but I don’t expect him to ever contribute for us. That said, he can be a positive locker room guy, albeit a relatively expensive one. But he seems to pass Wright’s eyeball test—speaks well, has a good smile. I wish I was joking. I expect our new guys to do lots of ads for local dentists. Ok, that was a joke.

[rankingtear]

Drew compares well, actually. He's closer to Boucher than he is to dregs like Collins.

I would take a guess, you looked up Drew and Zach in Basketball Reference? Where Jakob has a better offensive rating than superstars?

[Manu&Duncan fan]

There is no better gamble than Zach Collins this season. He is mobile and has a record of being able to knock down 3s. Drew is better on so many other things, but not 3s. Centers without long range are not useful these days. This is the reason Drew cannot compare to Zach. This is the reason FO didn't draft Sengun over Josh Primo. Spurs clearly wants to evolve into modern basketball.

[Dejounte]

Drew is being massively overrated on here. Don’t come to ST for player evals (including mine), come here for the cap information. Those are gold.

makes me wonder if people watched a minute of last season or just gave up after the team traded away Aldridge…

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Drew is being massively overrated on here. Don’t come to ST for player evals (including mine), come here for the cap information. Those are gold.

makes me wonder if people watched a minute of last season or just gave up after the team traded away Aldridge…

Yep. There are so many center can play like Drew and better than Drew. But it's much harder to find mobile big guys who can knock down 3s. Yes Zach never had a good percentage on 3s in NBA. But at least he did in college and still shoots 3s in NBA. This gives the FO hope. Without those 32.3% on 3s, Spurs won't want him even if he wants to play for free.

[John B]

Zach is a low risk with huge upsides. A 50% guarantee next year? He’s a mobile big who can stretch the floor. He is what modern NBA is looking for, and the closest we got is Samanic, who may or may not pan out. Landale has yet to play a minute of NBA. He’s scheduled to be back by November or December if no setbacks from his surgery, which he says is the best he’s felt. He’s 23 years old and a former lottery pick. Like the Primo pick, PATFO is taking a low risk who could be huge for us. From what I’ve seen from highlights, I see a swagger in his game. And the guy is trying to prove himself, so that’s always good.

[JeffDuncan]

He earned the start. He swang a playoff series and had a good preseason. This is a 2 position big that can protect the rim. ...


Who are you talking about? It can’t be Zollins.

For example, Poeltl had a blk% last season of 5.7. When last seen Zollins was 1.5.

Where are you getting your alleged info?

[MannyIsGod]

Drew is being massively overrated on here. Don’t come to ST for player evals (including mine), come here for the cap information. Those are gold.

makes me wonder if people watched a minute of last season or just gave up after the team traded away Aldridge…

At times last year Drew was just as good defensively as Jakob (per the eye test not sure about actual stats) and is a better rim runner than him because he actually finishes strong. I don't think Drew is being overrated here at all. Eubanks is a very very good backup NBA big imo. Very much like Aaron Baynes.

[duncan2150]

At times last year Drew was just as good defensively as Jakob (per the eye test not sure about actual stats) and is a better rim runner than him because he actually finishes strong. I don't think Drew is being overrated here at all. Eubanks is a very very good backup NBA big imo. Very much like Aaron Baynes.


Drew is not a good post defender, jakob is better without a doubt. Offcourse Drew can block shots and is not that bad finishing at the rim but he lacks a lot of things like the one on one D. Imo he's a good 3rd big , not a good back up, maybe if he continues to improve.

[rankingtear]

Who are you talking about? It can’t be Zollins.

For example, Poeltl had a blk% last season of 5.7. When last seen Zollins was 1.5.

Where are you getting your alleged info?

Collins lead the league in DFG% at the rim his rookie year when he was playing most of his minutes at center. Sophomore he split time between 4 and 5, and being mobile defender he was not exclusively used in drop coverage and had to guard the perimeter. He has a rim protectors standing reach at 9'3 he can deter shots at the rim without jumping.

[JeffDuncan]

There is no better gamble than Zach Collins this season. ...


Bullshit. Beg your pardon, but it is.

He can’t walk.



He is mobile ...



Yeah, those wheelchairs can roll surprisingly fast as long as the hubs are well oiled.



Spurs clearly wants to evolve into modern basketball.

Um. And they’re going about it like mice evolving into horses, which should only take, oh, 100 million years.

[Dejounte]

At times last year Drew was just as good defensively as Jakob (per the eye test not sure about actual stats) and is a better rim runner than him because he actually finishes strong. I don't think Drew is being overrated here at all. Eubanks is a very very good backup NBA big imo. Very much like Aaron Baynes.

gonna have to disagree here. Drew was often the center of botched plays and looked like he had a brain lapse every other play. He would show flashes from time to time but was a huge liability most of the time because he wasn’t a very smart player (and that could be due to inexperience)

[Chinook]

Even though I don't think it's even a debate who's better, the fact that Drew is on a minimum deal and Collins is on a $21M/3 deal is a problem. Even if the Spurs just traded away a way better center or just signed one, those players are still comfortably better than Collins too. He's not good, never has been. That he's indistinguishable from a min guy even at his best is the issue.

[The Truth #6]

Weird they couldn’t have offered Dieng more. With Zollins it’s more like we’re paying him $14 million for next season and then we realize that major shoulder and ankle surgeries do take a toll. But like so much these days with the team, let’s hope we didn’t make a bad choice. Lots of hoping going on.

[SpurSpike]

I think people forget that Zach Collins is only 23. He is not a broke down old man... hes a broke down young man at least, lol.

[The Truth #6]

Zollins is our insurance if Drew and Jock don’t pan out? Hopefully that’s not the plan.

[Russ]

Zollins is our insurance if Drew and Jock don’t pan out? Hopefully that’s not the plan.

It's probably the other way around.

[timvp]

In a classic case of missing the forest for the trees, the more I think about it, the more I'm now convinced that the signings of Collins and Jock aren't a case of the Spurs looking for competition for Samanic and Eubanks but that the Spurs front office just doesn't view Poeltl as the long-term starter at center. If the Spurs are looking for the eventual Poeltl replacement before having to sign him to his next contract, then the timeline of Collins' contract makes more sense, as does the usage of multiple roster spots on a position (center) that looks to be reasonably set.

Poeltl has two years left on his contract. By the end of his contract, the Spurs seem to be aligning themselves to be able to move on to a modern center who can shoot.

Still don't love the Collins signing but if you think of it as the Spurs throwing a lot of center options on the wall to hope to find one that sticks before they'd be forced to hand Poeltl an even bigger contract even though he doesn't have a modern-friendly game, it makes a little bit more sense.

[John B]

In a classic case of missing the forest for the trees, the more I think about it, the more I'm now convinced that the signings of Collins and Jock aren't a case of the Spurs looking for competition for Samanic and Eubanks but that the Spurs front office just doesn't view Poeltl as the long-term starter at center. If the Spurs are looking for the eventual Poeltl replacement before having to sign him to his next contract, then the timeline of Collins' contract makes more sense, as does the usage of multiple roster spots on a position (center) that looks to be reasonably set.

Poeltl has two years left on his contract. By the end of his contract, the Spurs seem to be aligning themselves to be able to move on to a modern center who can shoot.

Still don't love the Collins signing but if you think of it as the Spurs throwing a lot of center options on the wall to hope to find one that sticks before they'd be forced to hand Poeltl an even bigger contract even though he doesn't have a modern-friendly game, it makes a little bit more sense.

Basically to fire-up Jak's behind to get him working on his shots. Got it. :wakeup

[Chinook]

Oh, I definitely think they see Poeltl as tradeable. I was very curious about his mentality right now, but it looks like he expects to be back. Outside of Young, Aminu and White or Murray, I think Kakob is the most likely to be dealt. He's a good player on a fair midsized deal. He'd fit on a number of rosters better than he fits in SA. That makes him positive filler in a trade, which could save the team a future first at least.

[spurraider21]

not a huge eubanks fan (low upside guy, but he does play with a high motor which i love), and collins theoretically had more upside than eubanks. but that was predicated on his mobility more than anything, and potentially his ability to play the 4, but those are also the aspects of his game most directly impacted by his injury. so bizarre to pay him as much as they did

[spurraider21]

imagine moving off poeltl at 9 mil per year because you really want to pay collins 7 lol

[RC_Drunkford]

Let’s play around with the idea that he is healthy for most of the duration of his contract.

is he pretty much what we expected Samanic to be? Tall, versatile on defense, gives energy?

A lot of people compare him to Al Horford. If he can be Al Horford for that price that’s great. Gotta see how this develops

[RC_Drunkford]

At times last year Drew was just as good defensively as Jakob (per the eye test not sure about actual stats) and is a better rim runner than him because he actually finishes strong. I don't think Drew is being overrated here at all. Eubanks is a very very good backup NBA big imo. Very much like Aaron Baynes.

This is a typical case of Spurs fans overrating their players. If we list all the back up bigs he’s probably in the lowest 5 if not the worst 2nd string big in the NBA. This is just like everybody saying Trey Lyles is a good starting 4 but when you list all starting 4s you see that 29 teams have a better player at that position

[The Truth #6]

It's probably the other way around.

Hmmm. How? Zollins likely won’t play for a long time, so it will take much longer to assess if he can even contribute at all, right? Drew and Jock will both play next year immediately and so they can at least make a fuller assessment of whether Drew is in the longer term plans, I think.

[Drom John]

At times last year Drew was just as good defensively as Jakob (per the eye test not sure about actual stats) and is a better rim runner than him because he actually finishes strong. I don't think Drew is being overrated here at all. Eubanks is a very very good backup NBA big imo. Very much like Aaron Baynes.

FiveThirtyEight Defensive Raptor 2020/2021 3 minutes (the lowest possible) minimum.

12) Clint Capela
13) Jakob Poeltl
14) Marquis Chriss, Matisse Thybule

94) Jared Dudley, Drew Eubanks, Daniel Gafford, Paul George, Montrezl Harrell, Mitchell Robinson

344) Gorgui Dieng, Goren Dragic, Kyle Lowry, Coby White


2019/2019 1 minute minimum

135) Zach Collins, C.J. Miles, Paul Millsap, Thabo Sefolosha, Tyrone Wallace

[The Truth #6]

As for Timvp’s idea that the new big men could replace Yak, I can see that. I still think they could have just signed Dieng instead of Zollins and still signed Jock. But that’s why, I suppose, Zach’s injury allows some more time to assess Jock and Drew in the process, while also seeing if Yak can improve his confidence or motivation and be an improved player.

[mo7888]

In a classic case of missing the forest for the trees, the more I think about it, the more I'm now convinced that the signings of Collins and Jock aren't a case of the Spurs looking for competition for Samanic and Eubanks but that the Spurs front office just doesn't view Poeltl as the long-term starter at center. If the Spurs are looking for the eventual Poeltl replacement before having to sign him to his next contract, then the timeline of Collins' contract makes more sense, as does the usage of multiple roster spots on a position (center) that looks to be reasonably set.

Poeltl has two years left on his contract. By the end of his contract, the Spurs seem to be aligning themselves to be able to move on to a modern center who can shoot.

Still don't love the Collins signing but if you think of it as the Spurs throwing a lot of center options on the wall to hope to find one that sticks before they'd be forced to hand Poeltl an even bigger contract even though he doesn't have a modern-friendly game, it makes a little bit more sense.

I've thought about that...I think it's a closer timeline than that... I think they will move Poeltl within the year and they see Collins and Jock as the initial replacements. I know we probably don't do the Simmons deal but, assuming we did for the sake of projection here, Collins/Jock would be a much better fit. If we moved out DJ (as Chinook suggests) with Poeltl it does make the rest of our moves make more sense. We might still need another PG to add to the roster but Frank Ntilikina would be the guy I'd guess.... the French connection...and kinda like Collins (sans injury) in that he was a lottery pick that didn't get developed in NY....

[The Truth #6]

Good lord. There may be a...plan? I will be impressed if they make major changes to fit what we are guessing is their vision for the team.

[Kurgan]

Where is this Zollins hype coming from? He's played 10 games in the past two years. Bigs that are injury prone early in their career tend to be injury prone for the rest of their career.

[JeffDuncan]

In a classic case of missing the forest for the trees, the more I think about it, the more I'm now convinced that the signings of Collins and Jock aren't a case of the Spurs looking for competition for Samanic and Eubanks but that the Spurs front office just doesn't view Poeltl as the long-term starter at center. If the Spurs are looking for the eventual Poeltl replacement before having to sign him to his next contract, then the timeline of Collins' contract makes more sense, as does the usage of multiple roster spots on a position (center) that looks to be reasonably set.

Poeltl has two years left on his contract. By the end of his contract, the Spurs seem to be aligning themselves to be able to move on to a modern center who can shoot.

Still don't love the Collins signing but if you think of it as the Spurs throwing a lot of center options on the wall to hope to find one that sticks before they'd be forced to hand Poeltl an even bigger contract even though he doesn't have a modern-friendly game, it makes a little bit more sense.


But taking even more of a look at the Zollins timeline, under that contract:

2021-22, medical recovery. Even if the recovery goes as well as everyone hopes, he isn’t going to be significant this season. He’ll still have to get back in shape, knock off the (thick) rust and rehone his skill, learn to fit into how the Spurs play, etc. Maybe he could get a little garbage time late in the season. More than that should not be expected.

‘22-23, see if he can still play. If all the above goes well, and also training camp and preseason, slot him into the rotation for a serious look. At backup center or pf. Even if everything has gone fabulously, the Spurs wouldn’t start him from the beginning of the season. Maybe at some point in the latter half of the season, if he sparkles irresistibly, they’d tentatively start him, while making sure somebody else is on hand to start instead, just in case. [add sound effect of a bone breaking]

‘23-24, he’s good. Alakazam, magic has happened. The Spurs make him a starter for sure, and he plays well. *And everybody in the NBA sees it.*

2024, he’s UFA. The Spurs find themselves bidding against a dozen other teams for him. And he’s gone.

Oh well, one good season from him. Maybe, possibly, could be. In the best case.

Then, the Spurs find themselves shopping for another center who’s any good. Or perhaps, they outbid everyone else, to keep Zollins. So the Spurs are then overpaying him, and it no longer looks like he was ever any bargain at all.

Again, that’s best case, where he has a delightful recovery. Worst case is, total failure, and the Spurs have wasted an opportunity to try somebody else, who could at least run and jump when they signed him.

How is this a good gamble?

[JeffDuncan]

Where is this Zollins hype coming from? He's played 10 games in the past two years. Bigs that are injury prone early in their career tend to be injury prone for the rest of their career.


The hype is coming from desperation. Pure, unadulterated desperation. It isn’t rational.

[LkrFan]

CROFL Could be a steal if your training staff can get him healthy tbh

[Robz4000]

Could be a steal if your training staff can get him healthy tbh

:lol he's had the same surgery three times in the past two years, and he wasn't even an average player before that.

[CGD]

In a classic case of missing the forest for the trees, the more I think about it, the more I'm now convinced that the signings of Collins and Jock aren't a case of the Spurs looking for competition for Samanic and Eubanks but that the Spurs front office just doesn't view Poeltl as the long-term starter at center. If the Spurs are looking for the eventual Poeltl replacement before having to sign him to his next contract, then the timeline of Collins' contract makes more sense, as does the usage of multiple roster spots on a position (center) that looks to be reasonably set.

Poeltl has two years left on his contract. By the end of his contract, the Spurs seem to be aligning themselves to be able to move on to a modern center who can shoot.

Still don't love the Collins signing but if you think of it as the Spurs throwing a lot of center options on the wall to hope to find one that sticks before they'd be forced to hand Poeltl an even bigger contract even though he doesn't have a modern-friendly game, it makes a little bit more sense.

Yes, I think this is absolutely about the tradeability of Yak. They’re kind of in a sell
High kind of situation with him now, unless he magically develops an outside shot this summer. Zollins and Jock pick ups suggests they’re looking for a big that can also space the floor.

Plus for all we know, that’s the piece other teams may prefer over some of the guards out there.

[JeffDuncan]

Could be a steal if your training staff can get him healthy tbh


The Fakers are always thinking about stealing.

[TD 21]

It's true Collins has not been good so far and that Eubanks has been better (albeit in a more ideal, streamlined role), but if we're going to still give Murray the benefit of the doubt development wise, we damn sure better be doing the same for a guy who's played 2691 minutes over 154 games from ages 20-22.

As I alluded to, due to roster construction he's spent 36% of his minutes being shoehorned into a "stretch four", when he's neither. Injuries have probably derailed it, but the best case scenario was (is?) probably something like a poor man's Turner.



I've thought about that...I think it's a closer timeline than that... I think they will move Poeltl within the year and they see Collins and Jock as the initial replacements. I know we probably don't do the Simmons deal but, assuming we did for the sake of projection here, Collins/Jock would be a much better fit. If we moved out DJ (as Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) suggests) with Poeltl it does make the rest of our moves make more sense. We might still need another PG to add to the roster but Frank Ntilikina would be the guy I'd guess.... the French connection...and kinda like Collins (sans injury) in that he was a lottery pick that didn't get developed in NY....

In theory, it makes sense that if the Spurs have strong interest in Simmons, utilize Poeltl as an asset to send to another team in the trade because he'd both be a poor fit with him and could net them another asset.

In reality, Simmons probably gets moved relatively soon and the teams who needed a C didn't prioritize it much financially/asset wise and now have stopgaps (Hornets, Mavericks, Raptors).

People keep mentioning the Warriors, but they're committed to Wiseman (until he can be packaged for a star) and with Green's inability to shoot, they can't afford another non shooting C.

[LkrFan]

The Fakers are always thinking about stealing.

If you not cheating you not trying :lol

[LkrFan]

:lol he's had the same surgery three times in the past two years, and he wasn't even an average player before that.

Aight, you got me :lol

[Trill Clinton]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v89UO69CnSk

If he can do this in 2021 I'll be happy

[MannyIsGod]

This is a typical case of Spurs fans overrating their players. If we list all the back up bigs he’s probably in the lowest 5 if not the worst 2nd string big in the NBA. This is just like everybody saying Trey Lyles is a good starting 4 but when you list all starting 4s you see that 29 teams have a better player at that position

Why are you even bringing up Lyles? I certainly never overrated Lyles, so how is that even relevant? I really doubt you can name 30 backup bigs who you'd rather have than Eubanks in this league. I know I don't have 30.

[Russ]

Where is this Zollins hype coming from? He's played 10 games in the past two years. Bigs that are injury prone early in their career tend to be injury prone for the rest of their career.

Especially bigs from Portland . . . :depressed

Bill Walton, Greg Oden, Sam Bowie.

But hope springs eternal (I like the signing).

[SAGirl]

Obviously could've been worse. But it's upsetting they do Drew the way they did with this signing. He's been a far better player than Zach, even ignoring injuries. He shouldn't be at risk of getting cut because PATFO decided to pay a worse player way more to play his position.
I am wondering if they see this guy as a potential starter next to Jakob, which drew can’t be for them. I am just trying to make sense of this.

[Robz4000]

I am wondering if they see this guy as a potential starter next to Jakob, which drew can’t be for them. I am just trying to make sense of this.

RC was drunk and thought he was John Collins tbh. Wright just nodded along with the signing while exploring ways in which the Spurs could do right by other franchises through trades.

[SAGirl]

Doubt it. Collins in his second year is already a major contributor to a WCF team. He was a big reason they made it past DEN in 2019.
The Spurs scouts surely watched that series and took notes. He has probably been on their radar since then.

[SAGirl]

Nah, it's not even close. Collins sucks. Forbes had a great series against Denver too. The Nuggets are just like that.
Well that explains it!
The scouts that loved Forbes so much to sign him back bc that series against Denver and the one against Miami !!!! Also loved Zollins in that series. Reason enough. I mean they drafted Primo after seeing him at the combine. Its not crazy to think that good showing in that series was enough to ink him.

[SAGirl]

No agree. I’m saying they had to know POr wasn’t going to pay for the ability to get a TE right? In my mind you don’t do the Doug trade unless you already have Collins trade worked out.

Definitely don’t do 2 doug deals just for sake of it. But that’s the point; how do you do Doug deal if you don’t already have the other done?
Even before FA began, Portland had already renounced Zollins. As I understand it, they were near the luxury tax, and hes been injured for 2 years and just reinjured his ankle a third time. The risk that he pans out somewhere else and they “Miss out” doesn’t outweigh the very real pressure situation they have to contend right now. They had to resign Norman Powell, etc. He is basically sunk cost for them at that point. There was no possible trade there.

[SAGirl]

Yes, I'm serious.

This guy got charity starts after Portland was getting killed for passing on Bam. 12 career starts, 1 double digit scoring game of 11 points. Shot 33% from 3. No big deal, Portland was trying to salvage value for a bad pick, happens all the time.

Why should anyone celebrate a starting big getting 7 points a game, with half a block and half a steal and 1 free throw a game in 26 minutes?

Collins is a hasn't really done anything ever and I'm not expecting anything moreso now that he hasn't literally run for over 12 months and has a bum able ankle.

Eubanks has better career stats as a starter. Check their o-ratings and d-ratings. What's so impressive about Collins if he wasn't a lottery pick who went to Gonzaga?

And I'll join timvp, that Athletic article was pure puffery.

I remember when Charles Smith had ankle surgery in the off-season and the positive talk in the express news afterwards. "Oh, doctors went in and discovered scar tissue was restricting his mobility by 90%! But they cleaned it all up and just wait until you see him next season! Spurs fans will finally see the potential of who they traded for, the real Charles Smith!"

He never played again.

Times are different with medical advances, but I'm fine being very skeptical.
Is Trey Lyles better than this guy… Lyles was another former lottery pick PF the Spurs tried to salvage. They have a type of project player the are looking for I think.

[SAGirl]

But taking even more of a look at the Zollins timeline, under that contract:

2021-22, medical recovery. Even if the recovery goes as well as everyone hopes, he isn’t going to be significant this season. He’ll still have to get back in shape, knock off the (thick) rust and rehone his skill, learn to fit into how the Spurs play, etc. Maybe he could get a little garbage time late in the season. More than that should not be expected.

‘22-23, see if he can still play. If all the above goes well, and also training camp and preseason, slot him into the rotation for a serious look. At backup center or pf. Even if everything has gone fabulously, the Spurs wouldn’t start him from the beginning of the season. Maybe at some point in the latter half of the season, if he sparkles irresistibly, they’d tentatively start him, while making sure somebody else is on hand to start instead, just in case. [add sound effect of a bone breaking]

‘23-24, he’s good. Alakazam, magic has happened. The Spurs make him a starter for sure, and he plays well. *And everybody in the NBA sees it.*

2024, he’s UFA. The Spurs find themselves bidding against a dozen other teams for him. And he’s gone.

Oh well, one good season from him. Maybe, possibly, could be. In the best case.

Then, the Spurs find themselves shopping for another center who’s any good. Or perhaps, they outbid everyone else, to keep Zollins. So the Spurs are then overpaying him, and it no longer looks like he was ever any bargain at all.

Again, that’s best case, where he has a delightful recovery. Worst case is, total failure, and the Spurs have wasted an opportunity to try somebody else, who could at least run and jump when they signed him.

How is this a good gamble?
This is the best projection I have seen of the best case scenario. You have convinced me they are looking for a center prospect that can shoot (not a PF)… maybe.

[timvp]

But taking even more of a look at the Zollins timeline, under that contract:

2021-22, medical recovery. Even if the recovery goes as well as everyone hopes, he isn’t going to be significant this season. He’ll still have to get back in shape, knock off the (thick) rust and rehone his skill, learn to fit into how the Spurs play, etc. Maybe he could get a little garbage time late in the season. More than that should not be expected.

‘22-23, see if he can still play. If all the above goes well, and also training camp and preseason, slot him into the rotation for a serious look. At backup center or pf. Even if everything has gone fabulously, the Spurs wouldn’t start him from the beginning of the season. Maybe at some point in the latter half of the season, if he sparkles irresistibly, they’d tentatively start him, while making sure somebody else is on hand to start instead, just in case. [add sound effect of a bone breaking]

‘23-24, he’s good. Alakazam, magic has happened. The Spurs make him a starter for sure, and he plays well. *And everybody in the NBA sees it.*

2024, he’s UFA. The Spurs find themselves bidding against a dozen other teams for him. And he’s gone.

Oh well, one good season from him. Maybe, possibly, could be. In the best case.

Then, the Spurs find themselves shopping for another center who’s any good. Or perhaps, they outbid everyone else, to keep Zollins. So the Spurs are then overpaying him, and it no longer looks like he was ever any bargain at all.

Again, that’s best case, where he has a delightful recovery. Worst case is, total failure, and the Spurs have wasted an opportunity to try somebody else, who could at least run and jump when they signed him.

How is this a good gamble?

:lol I come to the same conclusion no matter how I look at it. It's a relatively small amount of money but this looks like a gamble that wasn't really worth taking. Maybe there's like a 1% chance where Zollins' is like a Sabonis who will blossom away from ball dominant guards. But otherwise even the higher end outcomes where he's able to return, the Spurs only have him locked into a market rate contract. And then you still have a tough call to sign him in three years given his injury history.

It's just a weird gamble where it's difficult to imagine what a realistic "win" looks like.

[Russ]

Hmmm. How? Zollins likely won’t play for a long time, so it will take much longer to assess if he can even contribute at all, right? Drew and Jock will both play next year immediately and so they can at least make a fuller assessment of whether Drew is in the longer term plans, I think.

Look at the salaries -- you usually don't have a player making $7 million as an insurance policy for players making considerably less.

[ragas]

In a classic case of missing the forest for the trees, the more I think about it, the more I'm now convinced that the signings of Collins and Jock aren't a case of the Spurs looking for competition for Samanic and Eubanks but that the Spurs front office just doesn't view Poeltl as the long-term starter at center. If the Spurs are looking for the eventual Poeltl replacement before having to sign him to his next contract, then the timeline of Collins' contract makes more sense, as does the usage of multiple roster spots on a position (center) that looks to be reasonably set.

Poeltl has two years left on his contract. By the end of his contract, the Spurs seem to be aligning themselves to be able to move on to a modern center who can shoot.

Still don't love the Collins signing but if you think of it as the Spurs throwing a lot of center options on the wall to hope to find one that sticks before they'd be forced to hand Poeltl an even bigger contract even though he doesn't have a modern-friendly game, it makes a little bit more sense.

You're not totally wrong. 21/22 will be the last Spurs season for Poeltl. They'll try to get anything out of him either at the trade deadline or in the next offseason. I could even imagine that they trade him before the season begins. Looking into the future there's a chance that the Spurs don't want to pay too much for a non-shooting center given the construction of the roster and the rebuilding process they are in. He has more value for a contending team. And if he improves his shooting the Spurs won't have the money to pay him what he wants.

That said, I'm pretty sure that neither Zollins nor Landale are the solution for the starting 5 spot.

[RC_Drunkford]

Ok here it is:

1st year 100% guaranteed
2nd year 50% guaranteed
3rd year 0% guaranteed

that definitely makes the contract look better

[PrimeMinister]

What is the opportunity cost of signing Zollins to this deal?

Who did the spurs miss a chance on?

sounds to me like the gamble was worth it.

[RC_Drunkford]

I‘m not mad at it. They can easily get rid of him and open up cap space if they want to. It’s worth a gamble

[The Truth #6]

Look at the salaries -- you usually don't have a player making $7 million as an insurance policy for players making considerably less.

True. But the timing is totally backwards because Zollins likely won’t play for a long time. If Jock or Drew somehow becomes their guy, then why would they invest more money in Zollins? It’s a weird signing for that and other reasons. It feels like an overpay, and then, as others have outlined, it’s a weird road for him to succeed with us. But I don’t have all their info, so I’m speculating.

[objective]

50% for year 2 is a bit much, not too happy about that. Good work by Bartelstein.

Too high a chance they just pay him to rehab all year one then have to eat year 2. I guess they got used to having dead money from guys who can't play over the years

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Ok here it is:

1st year 100% guaranteed
2nd year 50% guaranteed
3rd year 0% guaranteed

that definitely makes the contract look better

That's night quite as painful. A year two salary dump in a trade if all hope is lost in his rehab efforts this year.

[raybies]

50% for year 2 is a bit much, not too happy about that. Good work by Bartelstein.

Too high a chance they just pay him to rehab all year one then have to eat year 2. I guess they got used to having dead money from guys who can't play over the years

f

don't remember how to posts gifs anymore....

https://media.giphy.com/media/26FPGI3ZgduhYYVTa/giphy.gif

[timvp]

So Zach Collins' 2022-23 season is guaranteed the day after the 2022 draft and his 2023-24 season is guaranteed the day after the 2023 draft. That's ... not what I was hoping for, tbh. If he doesn't play this season, the Spurs will have to decide whether to keep him or waive him before seeing him play at all -- they can't even wait until 2022 training camp to see how his body is responding.

Given those dates, the Spurs probably will want him to play this season if he's able to. Even if it's just March and April, the Spurs will want to see something before figuring out whether to guarantee his 2022-23 salary.

[TD 21]

So Zach Collins' 2022-23 season is guaranteed the day after the 2022 draft and his 2023-24 season is guaranteed the day after the 2023 draft. That's ... not what I was hoping for, tbh. If he doesn't play this season, the Spurs will have to decide whether to keep him or waive him before seeing him play at all -- they can't even wait until 2022 training camp to see how his body is responding.

Given those dates, the Spurs probably will want him to play this season if he's able to. Even if it's just March and April, the Spurs will want to see something before figuring out whether to guarantee his 2022-23 salary.

You keep saying the season, but there was a rumor about December-ish a while back.

The season would explain why they're employing 4 centers in '21 though.

[timvp]

You keep saying the season, but there was a rumor about December-ish a while back.

December was his agent talking in that puff piece when Zollins was a free agent and looking for a contract. Of course he would paint the rosiest picture possible. Along with the December date, they were also saying that the stitches healing well was a sign that "this time it's different than the other two times" :lol

Maybe the Spurs will hold Zollins to that December date but for a thrice broken ankle, I'm assuming more like All-Star break at the earliest.

[Seventyniner]

You keep saying the season, but there was a rumor about December-ish a while back.

The season would explain why they're employing 4 centers in '21 though.

Yeah, I would certainly hope that the guarantee dates point to the Spurs thinking Zollins will be ready sooner rather than later. The 4th center could be a backup plan in case he has a setback. But that's just me guessing.

[Degoat]

I think he’ll debut sometime late January if I was to guess, I think ZC will be wanting to get on the court ASAP tho

[TD 21]

December was his agent talking in that puff piece when Zollins was a free agent and looking for a contract. Of course he would paint the rosiest picture possible. Along with the December date, they were also saying that the stitches healing well was a sign that "this time it's different than the other two times" :lol

Maybe the Spurs will hold Zollins to that December date but for a thrice broken ankle, I'm assuming more like All-Star break at the earliest.

All-Star break or the season, they should still be looking to move either Young or Eubanks (or in the unlikely event of a Simmons trade, Poeltl to a third team).

It's a virtual lock neither is on the team beyond the season anyway and in the interim, they're a poor fit together and/or in lineups with any of Poeltl, Johnson, Murray.

[timvp]

I think ZC will be wanting to get on the court ASAP tho

If you're Zollins, I think you slow-roll the return as much as possible. If the bone breaks again, the Spurs waive him and his career is over. If it doesn't break, he'll get paid at least one more year. From Zollins' POV, there's no reason to rush back. If he plays 15 games at the end of the season and looks decent, that's most likely enough for him to get the next season of his contract guaranteed.

[Robz4000]

I don't think he ever plays again tbh.

[Chinook]

So Zach Collins' 2022-23 season is guaranteed the day after the 2022 draft and his 2023-24 season is guaranteed the day after the 2023 draft. That's ... not what I was hoping for, tbh. If he doesn't play this season, the Spurs will have to decide whether to keep him or waive him before seeing him play at all -- they can't even wait until 2022 training camp to see how his body is responding.

Given those dates, the Spurs probably will want him to play this season if he's able to. Even if it's just March and April, the Spurs will want to see something before figuring out whether to guarantee his 2022-23 salary.

Yeah, that was part of my issue with the deal:


Depends on the way the guarantee is structured. If Collins can go into 2022-2023 without guaranteeing the entire year, the Spurs might do as you say. If they have to make a decision on him before the end of next season, he'll probably be back in time to let them see him play first.

What's worse is that because half of that money is sunk cost, the decision they're likely to make is actually if Collins is worth $3.5 Million or whatever. My guess is unless he's horrendous, they're going to think he is. I'm assuming he has some waiver of his injury clause in his non-guaranteed years, or else the contract could be stupidly bad, so hopefully we don't have to worry about him getting hurt in March and hanging on the 22/23 roster again. But this contract was insanely unnecessary. They're making a huge investment in him a) getting healthy b) staying healthy c) knocking the rust off and d) improving to actually be an okay player. All of that just to justify paying him $7 Million a year. They're basically treating him like he was a top-10 pick from this year rather than a bust from four years ago.

[Kurgan]

I don't think he ever plays again tbh.

He'll play again but he won't have the plus impact some are expecting. And he's going to be injury prone for the rest of his career too. Weird gamble to make on someone that only has role player upside

[ismael-robert]

Disagree with karen.. I mean kurgan...next Tiago calling it now

[KingKev]

I’ve in other pieces 4-6 months recovery time from his June 29, 2021 surgery.

[John B]

I’ve in other pieces 4-6 months recovery time from his June 29, 2021 surgery.

He’s been walking about town freely. With his history, I’d think they would be on the safe side to let him strengthen until towards December

[KingKev]

He’s been walking about town freely. With his history, I’d think they would be on the safe side to let him strengthen until towards December

Yeah I’m all for precaution and injuries will probably always be a concern given his history but I think we get some decent insight in what he still has earlier than some ppl are expecting.

[tbdog]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264268/Zach-Collins-Return-To-Come-After-Christmas

[lefty20]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/264268/Zach-Collins-Return-To-Come-After-Christmas

That's still pretty vague, isn't it?

Is that timetable for him being cleared for full 5v5 practice or games?

Either way, considering his history & PATFO's conservative nature in dealing with injury returns, I'll be shocked if he sees actual playtime before All-Star break.

[tbdog]

He said return to playing.

[exstatic]

That's still pretty vague, isn't it?

Is that timetable for him being cleared for full 5v5 practice or games?

Either way, considering his history & PATFO's conservative nature in dealing with injury returns, I'll be shocked if he sees actual playtime before All-Star break.

I think they’ll want to see as much of him as they can, because they’ll need to make a decision on the other 50% of his salary for next year around draft time.

[KingKev]

I think they’ll want to see as much of him as they can, because they’ll need to make a decision on the other 50% of his salary for next year around draft time.

Bingo. It’s all upside. Let’s see what he can do.

[playbonner15]

Could be a steal he gets healthy this season

[KingKev]

Could be a steal he gets healthy this season

Between McD, Forbes and Collins he is the only one who might move the needle if healthy. Pop might leave him in the bench for 3 years to let him earn his stripes though lol

[spurraider21]

Could be a steal he gets healthy this season
even if he's healthy this contract would be an overpay based on his on-court performance so far in his career. they're gambling not only on him being healthy but also showing improvement to the point where he realizes the potential he had years ago

[The Truth #6]

It was a weird contract. Seems like a Spurs move in that sense.

[Poolboy5623]

Between McD, Forbes and Collins he is the only one who might move the needle if healthy. Pop might leave him in the bench for 3 years to let him earn his stripes though lol

When did Z Collins become a needle mover lol??

[KingKev]

When did Z Collins become a needle mover lol??

it is a pretty low bar these days. A potential floor spacing big who isn’t 35 is something we have not had in years.

[Atl Spur]

When healthy...... he is solid.

[Poolboy5623]

When healthy...... he is solid.


...and when has he been healthy??

[spurraider21]

...and when has he been healthy??
https://c.tenor.com/Kq9a0vc8XJcAAAAC/that-is-the-question-that-is-the-right-question.gif

[exstatic]

He has managed to play 154 nba games.

[koriwhat]

Definitely an intriguing prospect but damn he's getting paid big just to sit for most of if not the whole year and be a glorified spectator.

[KobesAchilles]

Definitely an intriguing prospect but damn he's getting paid big just to sit for most of if not the whole year and be a glorified spectator.
Pretty much my dream job tbh :lol

[koriwhat]

Pretty much my dream job tbh :lol

:lol :tu

[raybies]

Really wish we had that roster spot right now... but my only guess is that Poetl is gonna be in trade offers. Why would we have 4 centers in today's NBA... just crazy.

[spurraider21]

Definitely an intriguing prospect but damn he's getting paid big just to sit for most of if not the whole year and be a glorified spectator.
pretty much my job since my paralegal does everything for me

[spurraider21]

He has managed to play 154 nba games.
https://c.tenor.com/_sGI68MsHtIAAAAC/the-rock-smell.gif

[koriwhat]

pretty much my job since my paralegal does everything for me

You're not telling us anything we don't already know.

[HankChinaski]

That Dwayne The Rock Johnson gif is the very image of a man who enjoys smelling the boisterous cacophony of his own airy ass.

[spurraider21]

You're not telling us anything we don't already know.
cant even appreciate some self deprecating humor, sad!

[koriwhat]

cant even appreciate some self deprecating humor, sad!

It was clever and funny... I'm not takungthat away from you. However, you overlooked my subtle joke back at you.

:tu

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I kind of thought the Spurs were stockpiling players with guaranteed deals because they had a trade in the works. I guess I was incorrect in that assumption.

[KingKev]

I kind of thought the Spurs were stockpiling players with guaranteed deals because they had a trade in the works. I guess I was incorrect in that assumption.

Giving Brian Wright way too much credit. Also we are stockpiling players who have 0 trade value. After we make these two cuts I wouldnt be surprised we start and end of the season with the same team, including Thad.

[ace3g]

CVMKrTrpzFn

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'll be curious to see how the Spurs try to work Collins into the rotation should he become available before the season is too far along.

[SpursRussia]

But can he already wipe his ass?

[Ocotillo]

I'll be curious to see how the Spurs try to work Collins into the rotation should he become available before the season is too far along.

My guess is Drew sits more once Collins is ever healthy.

[rjv]

My guess is Drew sits more once Collins is ever healthy.

if drew keeps playing like he is now, i absolutely agree. dude has been in the league for several years now and sill can't set a screen without committing a foul.

[exstatic]

if drew keeps playing like he is now, i absolutely agree. dude has been in the league for several years now and sill can't set a screen without committing a foul.

Moving screens are usually the ball handler’s fault. They have to wait for the screen to be set and stationary. If they don’t the screener will be caught moving into his screen position.

[RC_Drunkford]

Fun fact: the Mavs had to play their 3rd string Center yesterday and he shitted on Eubanks. That just shows you how bad of a player he is

[John B]

Eubanks showed promises in the pre-season and got praises in this board, but has fallen flat in his face. I think he just needs to settle down. But definitely Zollins would be taking a lot of his minutes as soon as he starts hitting 3pts. Man I can’t believe I’m saying that. I’m okay with stretch 4’s, but C’s hanging in the 3pt lines? :wakeup

[rjv]

Moving screens are usually the ball handler’s fault. They have to wait for the screen to be set and stationary. If they don’t the screener will be caught moving into his screen position.

last night was a perfect example of what drew does often-vassell spotted up at the top of the key and as the defender started to move towards him, drew comes up with a full head of steam and drops his elbow into the defender, which is a habit that he can't seem to stop. so, it's not so much that drew is moving as it is that he can't stop using his elbows.

[jermaine]

I love Drew... I just feel Jock should get half of his mins.

[wildbill2u]

Moving screens are usually the ball handler’s fault. They have to wait for the screen to be set and stationary. If they don’t the screener will be caught moving into his screen position.

Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but some of the Spurs players are so raw they don't know how to set screens with a good angle and get set or they actually begin to deliberately move into the defender to knock him off. Some vets can get away with that lean in movement, but a player has to have some ability to disguise it. Drew doesn't.

[objective]

Quotes from Pop that Zollins won't be ready by Christmas, still only doing light individual activities.

Probably not to the surprise of anyone except Wright and RC.

[slick'81]

Lol waiting for this bum to save the day

[Chomag]

Lol waiting for this bum to save the day This!
It amazes me sometimes how much the homers here love their scrubs.

[exstatic]

This!
It amazes me sometimes how much the homers here love their scrubs.

His last healthy season, had one of the best rim defense FG%, and shoots the 3 ball. No one thinks he’s Duncan, just possibly a center that you can play more than situationally. His total guaranteed money for the deal is about $10M, roughly one year of an MLE deal. The guy had surgery in April, so, no, Wright and RC will not be surprised that he’s not ready until 2022.

[slick'81]

His last healthy season, had one of the best rim defense FG%, and shoots the 3 ball. No one thinks he’s Duncan, just possibly a center that you can play more than situationally. His total guaranteed money for the deal is about $10M, roughly one year of an MLE deal. The guy had surgery in April, so, no, Wright and RC will not be surprised that he’s not ready until 2022.

yea, I vaguely remember a few seasons ago him starting to put it together. Hes a walking injury but maybe spurs get lucky. Obviously we aren't holding are breaths ,and neither is sa on basically a one year deal

[Kurgan]

If the idea is to be competitive and try to make playoffs, the money they wasted on McNugget/Zollins should have been used to try to poach John Collins from the Hawks

[slick'81]

If the idea is to be competitive and try to make playoffs, the money they wasted on McNugget/Zollins should have been used to try to poach John Collins from the Hawks

pretty sure atl would of matched . Probably why sa didnt even try. Spurs apparently did the best they could with that 47 million

[Kurgan]

pretty sure atl would of matched . Probably why sa didnt even try. Spurs apparently did the best they could with that 47 million

You miss every shot you don't take. There's no downside to forcing ATL to match at a higher salary
ATL even got a bargain on Collins as a result of nobody even making the attempt.

[slick'81]

You miss every shot you don't take. There's no downside to forcing ATL to match at a higher salary
ATL even got a bargain on Collins as a result of nobody even making the attempt.

no I hear ya. I wanted jc. It def wouldn't of hurt to drive up the price but we know sa doesn't operate like that. Pf needs to be addressed in this off season though

[KingKev]

Zollins is an intriguing prospect if he can regain his athleticism.

[exstatic]

If the idea is to be competitive and try to make playoffs, the money they wasted on McNugget/Zollins should have been used to try to poach John Collins from the Hawks

Therefore????

[BackHome]

Quotes from Pop that Zollins won't be ready by Christmas, still only doing light individual activities.

Probably not to the surprise of anyone except Wright and RC.

Zollins will probably not play this season - I don’t think people realize how bad a injury he had it is a pretty complicated surgery with not a high degree that he will not be able to play competitive basketball

[Sugus]

You miss every shot you don't take. There's no downside to forcing ATL to match at a higher salary
ATL even got a bargain on Collins as a result of nobody even making the attempt.

Yes there is - the money you offer to a RFA on an offer sheet is tied up, and unusable, until the other team either matches the offer, or declines to match and then you can sign it, but they have no obligation of answering the offer until the very last second, so it can effectively mean tying up all of your capspace and money, until all the worthwile FAs have signed with other teams and are gone, and ultimately getting nothing for it, when ATL (most likely) matches.

It'll be the same conundrum next off-season, when the Spurs have the opportunity to make a max offer to Ayton. In that case, to the contrary of the Collins situation, the Spurs will probably offer him the max - both because he'd be by far the best possible FA to get, and because the Suns are already in a complicated spot salary-wise, so there's a tangible chance that they won't/can't max without going deep into the luxury tax, which Sarver famously tries to avoid. It's a much better situation than the Collins one to "risk out" for.

[KingKev]

Yes there is - the money you offer to a RFA on an offer sheet is tied up, and unusable, until the other team either matches the offer, or declines to match and then you can sign it, but they have no obligation of answering the offer until the very last second, so it can effectively mean tying up all of your capspace and money, until all the worthwile FAs have signed with other teams and are gone, and ultimately getting nothing for it, when ATL (most likely) matches.

It'll be the same conundrum next off-season, when the Spurs have the opportunity to make a max offer to Ayton. In that case, to the contrary of the Collins situation, the Spurs will probably offer him the max - both because he'd be by far the best possible FA to get, and because the Suns are already in a complicated spot salary-wise, so there's a tangible chance that they won't/can't max without going deep into the luxury tax, which Sarver famously tries to avoid. It's a much better situation than the Collins one to "risk out" for.

We’ll need to dump a contract like White or McLovin’ to go after Ayton. The way things are shaping up we will have ~20mm if we let Forbes, Thad and Walker go.

[ismael-robert]

Collins will get us into play in game. Calling it now...that's if we haven't jacked up our record bad enough

[spurraider21]

It amazes me sometimes how much the homers here love their scrubs.
case in point

His last healthy season, had one of the best rim defense FG%, and shoots the 3 ball. No one thinks he’s Duncan, just possibly a center that you can play more than situationally. His total guaranteed money for the deal is about $10M, roughly one year of an MLE deal. The guy had surgery in April, so, no, Wright and RC will not be surprised that he’s not ready until 2022.

[KingKev]

case in point

Ex made some great points here. Zollins check many boxes when healthy. He has the potential to be a very solid and versatile role player in a position of need.

[Atl Spur]

case in point

This won’t age well.....

[Atl Spur]

Collins will be really nice if healthy......mobile enough to go twin towers

[objective]

Not sure I would still expect Collins to have whatever mobility rep he had after his foot exploding three times

[Degoat]

I’m setting myself up for disappointment but I have high hopes for ZC… I know it’s a big IF but if ZC comes back fully healthy we may have our next big man. I love and appreciate Jakob but he’s a liability not being able to shoot

[MI21]

I will be shocked if this guy ever contributes to meaningful basketball for the Spurs even if healthy.

[Rocalcio]

I’m setting myself up for disappointment but I have high hopes for ZC… I know it’s a big IF but if ZC comes back fully healthy we may have our next big man. I love and appreciate Jakob but he’s a liability not being able to shoot

Jakob developed a nice teardrop shot this season, he’s improving on the offensive side.

[John B]

Zollins would be a pleasant change over Eubanks. Drew has just been too short for teams with big men

[Sugus]

We’ll need to dump a contract like White or McLovin’ to go after Ayton. The way things are shaping up we will have ~20mm if we let Forbes, Thad and Walker go.

You sure about that? I was under the impression the Spurs, even with DJ, White and McLovin's (:lol) contracts, would still have enough cap space for a max offer sheet, even if it would likely put them over the cap and maybe even into lux-tax territory. At that point, it'd kinda be a win-win situation: Suns don't match, and you've snagged a #1 pick from a rival team without having to tank for it, or they do match, and you've made their salary cap situation hell, while also not tying yourself up to a full-on max deal. I like both outcomes, obviously would rather have the former though.

I'm no cap-ologist though, you might be right. In any case, I don't see a single player on this Spurs team being truly "untouchable" in that regard if it means getting a chance at Ayton. I like DWhite... But it's buh-bye if that chance arises, tbh.

[Sugus]

Jakob developed a nice teardrop shot this season, he’s improving on the offensive side.

Not to mention made huge strides getting to the basket, setting up the offense, and rim-running, which was getting him consistent double-digits scoring games early in the season, before he got COVID/was held out for H&S protocols.

Sadly, he didn't look the same to me after he came back, at least aggressiveness-wise... Looked like he lost that "edge" or spark that fueled him at the beginning of the season. I'm giving him a long leash, because we saw the dude play very different literally three weeks ago, but still, I'd like him to get back to that form. And if he does - that's far from a liability. Just goes to show how shooting-obsessed the NBA is becoming, sadly.

[wildbill2u]

ssome people have longer lasting after effects such as balance problems. Not saying this is the case here with a professsional athlete, but it takes some time to recover from any serious illness, even when the virus itself appears to have been stopped.

[John B]

Not to mention made huge strides getting to the basket, setting up the offense, and rim-running, which was getting him consistent double-digits scoring games early in the season, before he got COVID/was held out for H&S protocols.

Sadly, he didn't look the same to me after he came back, at least aggressiveness-wise... Looked like he lost that "edge" or spark that fueled him at the beginning of the season. I'm giving him a long leash, because we saw the dude play very different literally three weeks ago, but still, I'd like him to get back to that form. And if he does - that's far from a liability. Just goes to show how shooting-obsessed the NBA is becoming, sadly.

Hate to rant on Poeltl, but that’s my criticism of him. He fizzles until he gets another kick in the ass. He’s the most important part of the Spurs with him anchoring defense, and if he’s aggressive on scoring, including posting, Spurs could be very good. With what little I’ve seen of Zollins, he has that swagger in him. I like to see a little competition in the position for Poeltl to get going.

[KingKev]

You sure about that? I was under the impression the Spurs, even with DJ, White and McLovin's (:lol) contracts, would still have enough cap space for a max offer sheet, even if it would likely put them over the cap and maybe even into lux-tax territory. At that point, it'd kinda be a win-win situation: Suns don't match, and you've snagged a #1 pick from a rival team without having to tank for it, or they do match, and you've made their salary cap situation hell, while also not tying yourself up to a full-on max deal. I like both outcomes, obviously would rather have the former though.

I'm no cap-ologist though, you might be right. In any case, I don't see a single player on this Spurs team being truly "untouchable" in that regard if it means getting a chance at Ayton. I like DWhite... But it's buh-bye if that chance arises, tbh.

By my math looks like we will have 20-25mm depending on where the cap comes in (I suspect it will be higher than the this years $112mm). Wouldn’t be too tough to clear some room to max Ayton which would start around 30mm I believe.

[exstatic]

By my math looks like we will have 20-25mm depending on where the cap comes in (I suspect it will be higher than the this years $112mm). Wouldn’t be too tough to clear some room to max Ayton which would start around 30mm I believe.

Won’t be difficult. Cap holds for Thad and Lonnie total over 33M. Forbes is another 5.4M. Cacok is somewhere north of 1M, the total holds being around 40-41M. Easy to clear that room if they decide to mess with PHO.

[Poolboy5623]

These "when he's healthy" comments are hilarious. Z Collins is NEVER healthy...

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

By my math looks like we will have 20-25mm depending on where the cap comes in (I suspect it will be higher than the this years $112mm). Wouldn’t be too tough to clear some room to max Ayton which would start around 30mm I believe.

Yeah, barring trades, Spurs will have about $83 mil on 12 contracts next summer if they keep Zollins, KBD, Tre, Landale and Ewbanks and renounce Lonnie. The big unknowns are next year's cap and the Spurs future pick's contract, which depends on the draft position. They could create more room if they waive Zollins's contract if they need to but it seems doable to get a max slot for next summer and go after Ayton or Lavine. Problem is it's very doubtful they'd get either of them even if they try.

[KingKev]

Yeah, barring trades, Spurs will have about $83 mil on 12 contracts next summer if they keep Zollins, KBD, Tre, Landale and Ewbanks and renounce Lonnie. The big unknowns are next year's cap and the Spurs future pick's contract, which depends on the draft position. They could create more room if they waive Zollins's contract if they need to but it seems doable to get a max slot for next summer and go after Ayton or Lavine. Problem is it's very doubtful they'd get either of them even if they try.

White, Jak and Collins could all be usable trade pieces to target free agents via sign and trade. We will likely have a top 5 lottery pick and pretty good cap flexibility next off season but I don’t see us making much of a splash in free agency. Lavine is definitely getting the max, which is probably starting at ~35mm.

[Mr. Body]

Landale is literally never going to play, is he?

[poopbox]

Its sad that with all of Collins injuries the second he steps on the court he will be our second best big and the second he makes two 3's in a game he will be our best big

[Chomag]

I think there is a decent chance that Jock might just as good as Collins at this point, its not like Collins has set the bar very high even on that rare time he has been healthy. However we may never know since Pop seems to not favor him for giving him playing time.

Unless you are a vet you really do get the short end of the stick especially your first year here because of Pop seems to have a phobia for young players there first year here.

I just would love a legit explanation on why a player can't be asked to contribute unless they are old when they arrive here. Just because they are inexperienced doesn't mean that they are retarded.

[The Truth #6]

Landale is literally never going to play, is he?

Was wondering the same thing. My guess is that Pop still sees training camp as something where players earn their minutes for the year, and Jock was out. Not sure what else it could be because Drew has not taken a step I thought he would. And so more broadly, if Jock can’t get minutes, then there’s no way Luka was getting any all year.

[jermaine]

Landale is literally never going to play, is he?

I've come to realize this. Not as long as Pop is head coach. Our bigs can't an won't attempt a shot not in near the rim. As a matter of fact, they really don't look to shoot at all.(Purtel kinda does that push/hookshot) Landle could truly spread the floor for our guards, but Pop knows best. I guess

[spurraider21]

Brian Wright bullying ST in the paint with this one

[Mr. Body]

Yeah I didn't think Collins was this good.

[Ariel]

Truth be told, the outrage was more at the perceived 3 years, than the signing itself. The contract ended up being about 2/3 non guaranteed, it was almost risk free. Under THOSE terms the deal is an entirely different proposition. Props given to Wright when they're due, though. Great job on this one.

[Mr. Body]

Portland could use some size right now.

[tonight...you]

Portland could use some size right now.
I'd keep Zach. His "toughness" is needed.
Sochan got grit, but these young guys need to see a "take no shiv" attitude right now and Zach has it, along with actually being a darn good player and there is no real reason to get rid of him as of this moment.

Maybe I'm wrong...

[exstatic]

Truth be told, the outrage was more at the perceived 3 years, than the signing itself. The contract ended up being about 2/3 non guaranteed, it was almost risk free. Under THOSE terms the deal is an entirely different proposition. Props given to Wright when they're due, though. Great job on this one.

It didn’t “end up” being partially guaranteed, it was from the beginning, and was announced as such in any article. Any outrage was just typical ST bile and rage.

[RC_Drunkford]

Loved the signing from the jump cause best case scenario that’s what was supposed to happen. Collins gets healthy, plays consistent minutes and then takes the 3rd year leap. This is basically his 3rd full season so to say.

[CGD]

I’ll own it: I like this signing. It’s worth the gamble, plus in all likelihood these are the type of deals we’d been left with anyway. It’s a shitty crop this summer. People just pissed it’s happening st 12:01 again.

His deal will start in the 6M range, and we’ll see what year 3 protections there are. Spurs still have moved to make.

[RC_Drunkford]

A lot of people compare him to Al Horford. If he can be Al Horford for that price that’s great. Gotta see how this develops

[Ariel]

It didn’t “end up” being partially guaranteed, it was from the beginning, and was announced as such in any article. Any outrage was just typical ST bile and rage.


Blazers pull one-year, $7 million qualifying offer. Spurs sign him to three-year, $22 million contract.

Brian Wright goes ahead and gives him a 3 year 22 million dollar deal.

One of the worst signings in NBA history.

Just waiting on the excuses to come with, "Spurs had intel that other teams wanted him at like, 3/21, so the Spurs HAD TO ACT! Intel!"

[PhantomDashCam]

Happy to eat crow on this one. He's been fantastic and arguably the most consistent Spur this entire season.

[Mr. Body]

I'd keep Zach. His "toughness" is needed.
Sochan got grit, but these young guys need to see a "take no shiv" attitude right now and Zach has it, along with actually being a darn good player and there is no real reason to get rid of him as of this moment.

Maybe I'm wrong...

I'm not saying the Spurs should trade him, I'm saying the Blazers made a mistake by not keeping him.

[exstatic]

It didn’t “end up” being partially guaranteed, it was from the beginning, and was announced as such in any article. Any outrage was just typical ST bile and rage.

[timtonymanu]

Zollins coming back from his injury was my biggest worry but he has delivered. I’ll eat my crow. Better than eating crow for some shitstain like primo.

[slick'81]

:lol Spurs going total rebuild. If this guy can learn to walk without breaking something maybe next year they have something to work with

[Dex]

Zollins coming back from his injury was my biggest worry but he has delivered. I’ll eat my crow. Better than eating crow for some shitstain like primo.

Bringing up Primo is a very low bar.

Crazy that a guy who was considered to be high character and "a good kid" ended up letting his dong flop around where it wasn't warranted. Frankly, it's hard to research that kind of stuff for someone who was 18 coming into the NBA.

[TeKu]

Given this approach worked out reasonably well for Wright, and we have cap space to burn next off season anyway, there's probably a high likelihood he goes this route again.

Free Agent previous 1st round picks who have not managed to hold down a rotation spot yet due to play/injury... Jaxson Hayes, Coby White, Dennis Smith Jr, Darius Bazley or Nickell Alexander Walker anyone?

[exstatic]

Given this approach worked out reasonably well for Wright, and we have cap space to burn next off season anyway, there's probably a high likelihood he goes this route again.

Free Agent previous 1st round picks who have not managed to hold down a rotation spot yet due to play/injury... Jaxson Hayes, Coby White, Dennis Smith Jr, Darius Bazley or Nickell Alexander Walker anyone?

None of those do anything for me. Smith is barely hanging on to an NBA career. Last season, he just escaped being the last cut in Portland.

I’m not looking for washouts. Zollins actually showed promise in season 2. He had one of the lowest opp rim FG% rates in the league. Find me another injury or surgery recoup.

[DPG21920]

I didnt love the Collins signing on talent alone (didnt think he could be THIS good even if he got healthy) but once I found out about the contract I was fine with it. Was meh for me but hes really played great

[Ariel]

His contract is expiring, and he'll want both a pay raise and long term security, so I very much doubt he'll agree to a largely non guaranteed contract like he did his previous one.
What's a good compromise? 3 years guaranteed? maybe 4th team option?
He'll command over MLE surely... how much would get it done?
Given that the Spurs would no longer have the luxury to dodge the risk of long term injury, would you be willing to trade him for a good enough offer? What would that be?

[TeKu]

None of those do anything for me.

Oh, I agree, but that's the point really. While Collins had shown promise he was quickly released by Portland and was seen by most as a minimum contract at the time. He didn't do anything for most on this board, so it won't be anyone we like.

Assuming we don't get the #1 pick, I can see Jaxson Hayes as fitting the profile and likely gettable with a similar large non-guaranteed offer give the Pels cap situation.

[DPG21920]

His contract is expiring, and he'll want both a pay raise and long term security, so I very much doubt he'll agree to a largely non guaranteed contract like he did his previous one.
What's a good compromise? 3 years guaranteed? maybe 4th team option?
He'll command over MLE surely... how much would get it done?
Given that the Spurs would no longer have the luxury to dodge the risk of long term injury, would you be willing to trade him for a good enough offer? What would that be?

There were rumors SA was very open to trading him this deadline and teams just passed. They have to be kicking themselves if true. First round pick quality player now which is amazing.

[Ariel]

Given this approach worked out reasonably well for Wright, and we have cap space to burn next off season anyway, there's probably a high likelihood he goes this route again.

Free Agent previous 1st round picks who have not managed to hold down a rotation spot yet due to play/injury... Jaxson Hayes, Coby White, Dennis Smith Jr, Darius Bazley or Nickell Alexander Walker anyone?
Maybe a couple young FA with upside like Naz Reid or Jalen McDaniels could be targets

[Atl Spur]

Gonzaga Zollins showed a ton of versatility…… he just needed to get healthy and playing time.