Summer trades

[DAF86]

I read somewhere that the Cavs are open to trading Garland. I'm not super familiar with Garland's game (is he a complete negative on defense? Is he empty calories?), but I found that news weird.

[lefty20]

I read somewhere that the Cavs are open to trading Garland. I'm not super familiar with Garland's game (is he a complete negative on defense? Is he empty calories?), but I found that news weird.

I think this was confirmed to be a false rumor.

[scott]

Even the most remote of possibilities that the Spurs could potentially trade for Harden is giving me anxiety. He definitely tops my list of players I'd never want to see in Silver & Black.

[Ariel]

Even the most remote of possibilities that the Spurs could potentially trade for Harden is giving me anxiety. He definitely tops my list of players I'd never want to see in Silver & Black.
Relax. That's like panicking in fear that a meteorite may land over your head.

[Extra Stout]

Relax. That's like panicking in fear that a meteorite may land over your head.
It’s not a worry. The Sixers will work with Harden to send him someplace that fits his lifestyle, which is NOT San Antonio.

[baseline bum]

It’s not a worry. The Sixers will work with Harden to send him someplace that fits his lifestyle, which is NOT San Antonio.

Harden in a city that makes its exotic dancers wear granny panties would be hilarious.

[scott]

We should hang a banner of Manu blocking Harden's shot from the rafters if for no other reason than to forever prevent him from being a Spur.

[BatManu20]

Looking more and more likely he’ll be a Clipper.

1674651054439563264

[spurraider21]

According to the article, it seems Kawhi and George are under the impression Harden is joining their core… i assumed the deal would include George.

[scott]

Morey will facilitate another cry baby forcing his way out instead of doing what he should: trade his ass to Detroit for a couple of second rounders.

[buttsR4rebounding]

According to the article, it seems Kawhi and George are under the impression Harden is joining their core… i assumed the deal would include George.

If they were smart they’d ship Kawhi out. Both are oft-injured, but at least if he’s somehow healthy George could give you 75 games. Even if Scumbag is “healthy” his upside is 60 games.

[buttsR4rebounding]

Can you imagine team leadership on a Kawhi/Hardin team? One doesn’t talk to his teammates, the other has them out at strip clubs until dawn.

[Mr. Body]

It seems the Spurs are $30.9 now under the cap. That's enough, I believe, to absorb a player like Kyle Lowry outright, who is at $29.7.

[Ariel]

Looking more and more likely he’ll be a Clipper.

1674651054439563264
How can billionaires be so stupid?

[Spurs9]

How can billionaires be so stupid?
Balmer will still sell plenty of tickets

[exstatic]

How can billionaires be so stupid?

They think money can solve anything.

[Ariel]

If they were smart they’d ship Kawhi out. Both are oft-injured, but at least if he’s somehow healthy George could give you 75 games. Even if Scumbag is “healthy” his upside is 60 games.
If they were smart, they'd move Kawhi. If they were smarter, they'd move BOTH.

[Mr. Body]

If they were smart, they'd move Kawhi. If they were smarter, they'd move BOTH.

Don't think anyone will trade for Kawhi.

[Ariel]

Don't think anyone will trade for Kawhi.
I tend to agree, but then again, somebody took Ben Simmons from Philly... so you never know. Might as well try.

[ace3g]

Shams Charania ShamsCharania
The Indiana Pacers are nearing a trade sending guard Chris Duarte to the Sacramento Kings for draft compensation, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.

[exstatic]

Shams Charania ShamsCharania
The Indiana Pacers are nearing a trade sending guard Chris Duarte to the Sacramento Kings for draft compensation, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.

:rollin Drafted with pick #13 in the lottery, allegedly let go for one or two SRPs.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Harden in a city that makes its exotic dancers wear granny panties would be hilarious.

And most of them actually are grannies...so there's that as well.

[Mr. Body]

One of the teams that could have picked Sengun. That draft went really bad really fast. Some exceptions.

[Degoat]

:rollin Drafted with pick #13 in the lottery, allegedly let go for one or two SRPs.

Almost as funny as the spurs taking Primo 12th in the lottery.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Looking more and more likely he’ll be a Clipper.

1674651054439563264

What could the Clippers possibly give up? The Clips are a constant trainwreck.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Almost as funny as the spurs taking Primo 12th in the lottery.

Ouch....:lol

[Mr. Body]

Pacers are still paying Nik Stauskas $700,000 a year.

[Mr. Body]

Duarte got hurt and never got his shot back. Word is they're clearing salary for Kuzma. They just drafted a ton of guards, too.

[R. DeMurre]

Steve Balmer's worth something like $90 billion. His stock and real estate portfolio goes up or down more on one mildly volatile day than the entire Clipper yearly payroll, so I think he's not sweating anything on that front. From purely a basketball stance, the idea of pairing two wings like Kawhi and PG was a pretty good idea in terms of team building, but it just didn't work out. It reminds me of Orlando's plan about 20 years ago to pair Grant Hill with a young Tracy McGrady-- also a great concept that just never took off, again due to injuries.

[Seventyniner]

Steve Balmer's worth something like $90 billion. His stock and real estate portfolio goes up or down more on one mildly volatile day than the entire Clipper yearly payroll, so I think he's not sweating anything on that front.

I think this is why the rest of the owners wanted the second apron. Ballmer might start paying attention to his team's payroll when it costs him more than just money. I don't think the Clippers getting Harden would even be possible if all the second apron restrictions were already in effect.

[exstatic]

I think this is why the rest of the owners wanted the second apron. Ballmer might start paying attention to his team's payroll when it costs him more than just money. I don't think the Clippers getting Harden would even be possible if all the second apron restrictions were already in effect.

Not just Balmer. Lacob has shown no interest or ability to self regulate his payroll.

[mo7888]

The Nets are trading Joe Harris to Detroit, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium.

Shams

[spurraider21]

1674851007065358349

[JPB]

Steve Balmer's worth something like $90 billion. His stock and real estate portfolio goes up or down more on one mildly volatile day than the entire Clipper yearly payroll, so I think he's not sweating anything on that front. From purely a basketball stance, the idea of pairing two wings like Kawhi and PG was a pretty good idea in terms of team building, but it just didn't work out. It reminds me of Orlando's plan about 20 years ago to pair Grant Hill with a young Tracy McGrady-- also a great concept that just never took off, again due to injuries.

He sure isn't sweating although worth and money on the bank are two different things.

[Mr. Body]

Nets setting a market for absorbing twenty million dollars... two seconds.

[Chinook]

Another example of how SA's cap space doesn't have the leverage that some assumed it would. It's an interesting sign that the Spurs didn't sell their space in this deal. They really do seem to have a plan for it...

[Mr. Body]

Another example of how SA's cap space doesn't have the leverage that some assumed it would. It's an interesting sign that the Spurs didn't sell their space in this deal. They really do seem to have a plan for it...

Because there are no other deals available? This was the only one?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Yeah well cap space is cheap. Also, 2nd round picks are a valid NBA currency not only for minor trades.

[Mr. Body]

If the Spurs are looking to rent out their cap space, which I think they are doing, they're most likely waiting around to see what happens with the Harden-Kyrie-Lillard-otherbabies chaos.

They've been pretty close to the Heat lately, including the favor of absorbing Noah Vonleh's contract in exchange for a SRP.

[exstatic]

If the Spurs are looking to rent out their cap space, which I think they are doing, they're most likely waiting around to see what happens with the Harden-Kyrie-Lillard-otherbabies chaos.

They've been pretty close to the Heat lately, including the favor of absorbing Noah Vonleh's contract in exchange for a SRP.

Celtics

[Mr. Body]

Celtics

Alright, Dedmon.

[timvp]

Yeah, the days of getting a first round draft pick for cap space are over. Too many billionaire owners, too many firsts already traded away from contenders, too many teams with more cap room than they can spend in this weak FA market.

It's starting to look like the options for reaching the floor are:

1) Wait around for a few second round picks in a salary dump.
2) Re-sign the end of your bench for higher than their market value.
3) Go out and overpay a starter (Cam Johnson, Brook Lopez, Austin Reaves, etc.)
4) Give a role player an inflated one-year deal
5) Trade for a player on a team looking to lower their tax bill.

Of those, I think 4 is probably the best option. The Spurs get to pick the player in that scenario and have more control over the specifics of the contract.

The Spurs could wait around for 1 or 5 but even in the best case scenarios, I'm not even sure it's that much better than option No. 4. The Spurs have so many second rounders, getting two or three more doesn't really sound worth the effort.

[Chinook]

Because there are no other deals available? This was the only one?

This deal would've put the Spurs over the cap, which is a good place to be going into a new season. This wasn't the only one, but it might be the last one that has that benefit until next summer.

[Mr. Body]

This deal would've put the Spurs over the cap, which is a good place to be going into a new season. This wasn't the only one, but it might be the last one that has that benefit until next summer.

The Spurs just opened enough for Kyle Lowry's salary. If they picked up Mamu, they wouldn't have enough... although the Sidy guarantee I think wrecks that unless they do a Khem swap.

There's still a lot going on league-wide. We're going to be paralyzed for a while just like we were last summer as Durant dithered around. This summer there's Harden, George, Zach Lavine, all spinning around, not to mention Kyrie and Lillard. The Nets signaled they're bowing out with the Joe Harris trade. The Spurs might simply be waiting around to be 'very helpful' to these desperate squads.

[CGD]

Another example of how SA's cap space doesn't have the leverage that some assumed it would. It's an interesting sign that the Spurs didn't sell their space in this deal. They really do seem to have a plan for it...

I hope so man. The Harris deal is the exact type of deal I'm hoping to see them make this summer. Seems like a missed opportunity, unless, like you say, they have a plan in place.

[Chinook]

The Spurs just opened enough for Kyle Lowry's salary. If they picked up Mamu, they wouldn't have enough... although the Sidy guarantee I think wrecks that unless they do a Khem swap.

There's still a lot going on league-wide. We're going to be paralyzed for a while just like we were last summer as Durant dithered around. This summer there's Harden, George, Zach Lavine, all spinning around, not to mention Kyrie and Lillard. The Nets signaled they're bowing out with the Joe Harris trade. The Spurs might simply be waiting around to be 'very helpful' to these desperate squads.

The Spurs might be helpful, but they better like the player and not just be hoping for picks.

Also I'd've far preferred a Harris trade and having exceptions to a Lowry trade and only having the RE.

[Mr. Body]

The Spurs might be helpful, but they better like the player and not just be hoping for picks.

Also I'd've far preferred a Harris trade and having exceptions to a Lowry trade and only having the RE.

I don't think they'd take Lowry just by himself, not least of which Miami wants to get rid of his salary.

I figure the Spurs and Nets have at least some contact and might have touched base on a Joe Harris dump. You'd think his floor spacing would appeal, although they already have McDermott. Might suggest the Spurs have something else in mind.

[Chinook]

I don't think they'd take Lowry just by himself, not least of which Miami wants to get rid of his salary.

I figure the Spurs and Nets have at least some contact and might have touched base on a Joe Harris dump. You'd think his floor spacing would appeal, although they already have McDermott. Might suggest the Spurs have something else in mind.

Yep. The trade, even for just seconds, would've made a lot of sense for the Spurs unless they have something more specific in mind. Could just be a later Patty Mills trade. They could have a key role in Harden or Lillard being moved. I do think they know exactly what they intend to do though.

[Bruno]

Lowry ($30M salary) would put Spurs way above the salary floor (if they re-sign Tre). It will cost Spurs something like $20M more than taking, for example, an injured Oladipo ($10M salary). It will also take away some trade flexibily for the 2023-2024 season.

I'm not sure 1 year of Lowry, who might not be interested in playing for a rebuilding team, is worth $20M and some trade flexibility.

[CGD]

^ I agree, would much rather do what Detroit did with Joe Harris.

[Mr. Body]

Lowry ($30M salary) would put Spurs way above the salary floor (if they re-sign Tre). It will cost Spurs something like $20M more than taking, for example, an injured Oladipo ($10M salary). It will also take away some trade flexibily for the 2023-2024 season.

I'm not sure 1 year of Lowry, who might not be interested in playing for a rebuilding team, is worth $20M and some trade flexibility.

Yeah, I can see that.

Conversely, the Spurs might be able to get a first out of it. The trade would need Lowry to stay and man the PG spot. And the contract is still a thirty million expiring, which will still be valuable throughout the year as teams assess their player and financial needs.

[Ariel]

I made a few hypotheticals here: https://www.spotrac.com/nba/manage/16881582737782/
* sign Wemby (starting 12.2M)
* sign Sidy (starting 2M)
* re-sign Tre (starting 10M)
* re-sign KBD (starting 4M)
* re-sign Champagnie (starting 2M)
* re-sign Barlow (starting 2M)
* renounce Langford
* renounce Mamu
* renounce Dieng
By my estimation that puts us at 14 players + 2 2-way contracts (Barlow and Champagnie) for 120M with the salary floor at 122.4... you don't need to add 30M, we're almost there with all those moves. Just redistribute that figure, say overpay Tre's first year and have the contract frontloaded ant that's it.

PS: The site wouldn't let me add Champagnie, Barlow and Cissoko, so I'm throwing an extra 6M at its listing.

[slick'81]

I made a few hypotheticals here: https://www.spotrac.com/nba/manage/16881582737782/
* sign Wemby (starting 12.2M)
* sign Sidy (starting 2M)
* re-sign Tre (starting 10M)
* re-sign KBD (starting 4M)
* re-sign Champagnie (starting 2M)
* re-sign Barlow (starting 2M)
* renounce Langford
* renounce Mamu
* renounce Dieng
By my estimation that puts us at 14 players + 2 2-way contracts (Barlow and Champagnie) for 120M with the salary floor at 122.4... you don't need to add 30M, we're almost there with all those moves. Just redistribute that figure, say overpay Tre's first year and have the contract frontloaded ant that's it.

can we switch barlow for mamu?

[Ariel]

can we switch barlow for mamu?
You can sign Mamu and Sir'Jabari Rice (2-way) if you want and you're over the floor and have a complete roster

[JPB]

I also can see spurs overpaying a vet role player. Makes more sense than just giving a bigger bag to all their fringe, end of bench guys.

[Ariel]

Can't we renegotiate Zach Collin's deal? That's another way, extend and frontload his contract

[Ariel]

I also can see spurs overpaying a vet role player. Makes more sense than giving a bigger bag to all their fringe, end of bench guys.
I agree, but the point is meeting the salary floor as some huge problem is being overblown.
Personally I'd add a center and backup PG (Plumlee + trade Graham + 1 pick for Monte Morris)

[slick'81]

Can't we renegotiate Zach Collin's deal? That's another way, extend and frontload his contract

i was wondering that too. Extend and bump his pay a bit

[objective]

Can't we renegotiate Zach Collin's deal? That's another way, extend and frontload his contract

I was trying to figure it out from cbafaq

Answer is yes. Max he in particular could sign for is 120% of the average salary, so maybe 14-16 million?

15% can be paid as signing bonus, then would apply evenly over the total years including next year

I think

[Chinook]

Can't we renegotiate Zach Collin's deal? That's another way, extend and frontload his contract

They can't. You need to be signed to at least a four-year deal. But


I was trying to figure it out from cbafaq

Answer is yes. Max he in particular could sign for is 120% of the average salary, so maybe 14-16 million?

15% can be paid as signing bonus, then would apply evenly over the total years including next year

I think

So as I mentioned, the answer is no. But with the brand-new CBA, teams can actually give up to a 40-percent raise. In Collins' case, his actual starting salary would still be bumped up to the MLE, meaning his max extension is about $56M/4.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1648391157045673984/PeoZeyFY_normal.jpg
Shams Charania ShamsCharania
(https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania)9s (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1674975177015173129)
Wizards are trading guard Monte Morris to the Pistons, sources tell @TheAthletic (https://twitter.com/TheAthletic/) @Stadium (https://twitter.com/Stadium/).

[Chinook]

Pistons make another move the Spurs were believed to make.

[Spursfanfromafar]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1648391157045673984/PeoZeyFY_normal.jpg
Shams Charania ShamsCharania
(https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania)9s (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1674975177015173129)
Wizards are trading guard Monte Morris to the Pistons, sources tell @TheAthletic (https://twitter.com/TheAthletic/) @Stadium (https://twitter.com/Stadium/).

Miss from the Spurs, in my view. Retaining Tre Jones was a good move but he has limitations and Morris would have been a great fit. Now the Pistons should have their chock full of PGs in Morris, Cunningham and Kilian Hayes. Hayes is worse than Jones as of now. Spurs missing out on Morris is a bad one, I think.

Plus Pistons got him for just a future SRP.!

[Mr. Body]

No one thought the Spurs were going after Monte Morris.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1509990164415893517/qIuzsMq6_normal.jpg
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
(https://twitter.com/wojespn)now (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1674978462824640513)
Compensation update: The Wizards are trading Monte Morris to the Pistons for a second-round pick, sources tell ESPN. Wizards will create a $9.8M Traded Player Exception.

[Ariel]

No one thought the Spurs were going after Monte Morris.
I did (hoped). Realistically the Spurs have options, best case scenario being we get that starting caliber PG and Tre is the backup. But I liked Monte Morris better than Graham, and at the cost of ONE second round pick (of which the Spurs have 18 until '30 if I'm not mistaken) it was a good move IMO. Monte Morris is pretty underrated all around, he's a true PG who can be your floor general and also is a highly efficient shooting from 3 for those concerned with spacing. I'm not saying he's the long term solution, but he'd have been an adequate and cheap stop gap while we find "the one".

[mo7888]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1509990164415893517/qIuzsMq6_normal.jpg
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
(https://twitter.com/wojespn)now (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1674978462824640513)
Compensation update: The Wizards are trading Monte Morris to the Pistons for a second-round pick, sources tell ESPN. Wizards will create a $9.8M Traded Player Exception.

Send the Wizards Birch + a 2nd ...

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1648391157045673984/PeoZeyFY_normal.jpg
Shams Charania ShamsCharania
(https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania)now (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1674985559339532290)
Miami is trading Victor Oladipo to Oklahoma City, sources tell @TheAthletic (https://twitter.com/TheAthletic/) @Stadium (https://twitter.com/Stadium/).

[Mr. Body]

Cap clearing by Miami, wonder what they gave up.

[CGD]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1648391157045673984/PeoZeyFY_normal.jpg
Shams Charania ShamsCharania
(https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania)now (https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1674985559339532290)
Miami is trading Victor Oladipo to Oklahoma City, sources tell @TheAthletic (https://twitter.com/TheAthletic/) @Stadium (https://twitter.com/Stadium/).

You have to think the Spurs are in the mix for these salary dump moves (this and the Harris one). What are the preserving the space for?

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1509990164415893517/qIuzsMq6_normal.jpg
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
(https://twitter.com/wojespn)49s (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1674986964762738688)
Oklahoma City is acquiring Victor Oladipo and draft compensation to absorb his $9.45 million expiring contract, sources tell ESPN. Miami creates a trade exception of $9.45M with the deal.

[Ariel]

They can't. You need to be signed to at least a four-year deal. But

So as I mentioned, the answer is no. But with the brand-new CBA, teams can actually give up to a 40-percent raise. In Collins' case, his actual starting salary would still be bumped up to the MLE, meaning his max extension is about $56M/4.
Got it, thanks.

[BatManu20]

5-years/$260M for Haliburton wow

1674995296839892992

[Chinook]

That's probably not great for the Spurs' chances of extending Vassell to a cheap deal. Not that he has anyone on Hali, but they probably aren't getting him to sign for half or less of that right now. It's still possible they don't extend Vassell at all if they are looking at 2024 space or what to see if Branham is going to make Devin expendable. But if they still think he's going to get an extension, doing it early so they are free to do later deals during the summer would be a smart move. They arguably lost Murray last year because they drug their feet on an extension in 2019.

[jesterbobman]

I'd keep Vassell on a contract, but I think negotiation gets awkward with his lack of availability last year, and while he might become a player worthy of a max extension, I don't think you can have confidence in that now. The early lock up contract at something like 5 years 140m would be fine from my POV, though I'm a big Vassell believer. In a year, the start of that contract is probably equivalent to about a 4th starter - perfectly fine use of money.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1509990164415893517/qIuzsMq6_normal.jpg
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
(https://twitter.com/wojespn)9m (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1675125487700516865)
Free agent Max Strus has agreed on a four-year, $63M sign-and-trade with the Cleveland Cavaliers, agent Mark Bartelstein of @PrioritySports (https://twitter.com/PrioritySports/) tells ESPN. In three-team deal, Heat get a second-round pick and Spurs acquire Cedi Osman, Lamar Stevens and a second-rounder.

[Degoat]

Cedi Osman and Lamar Stevens and a 2nd rounder to the spurs!

[Ocotillo]

Detroit has a lot of pg depth now, another move coming up?

[ace3g]

Shams Charania ShamsCharania
Breaking: Trail Blazers star Damian Lillard has requested a trade out of Portland, sources tell @TheAthletic @Stadium. The Miami Heat and Brooklyn Nets are among leading suitors for one of the NBA’s 75 Greatest Players ever.

[LeBowen]

They just gave 150 million to Jerami fucking Grant. :lmao:lmao

What a trainwreck. They better start praying Scoot is the next Russ/Rose.

PATFO is far from perfect, but looking at how clueless most of the league is, we're lucky to have them.

[DesignatedT]

one of the NBA’s 75 Greatest Players ever.

Lol no.

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1509990164415893517/qIuzsMq6_normal.jpg
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
(https://twitter.com/wojespn)1m (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1675217596143001606)
Knicks are finalizing trade to send F Obi Toppin to the Pacers for two future second-round picks, sources tell ESPN. Deal gives Toppin an opportunity to play a more significant role in Indiana and stacks up more draft assets for New York. Deal can’t be completed until Thursday.

[Mr. Body]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1509990164415893517/qIuzsMq6_normal.jpg
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
(https://twitter.com/wojespn)1m (https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1675217596143001606)
Knicks are finalizing trade to send F Obi Toppin to the Pacers for two future second-round picks, sources tell ESPN. Deal gives Toppin an opportunity to play a more significant role in Indiana and stacks up more draft assets for New York. Deal can’t be completed until Thursday.

Obi Toppin is locked into a top 10 pick's salary scale, but I've seen him as a promising bench big, springy and activ if he hasn't fully taken off. But this is the sort of deal we may be seeing down the line when we're out of other teams' first round picks and our own picks are in the late 20s. This is where our SRPs will become valuable to add talent.

[Ariel]

Hey guys, an idea here: with Dame going to Miami almost a certainty, it seems likely that Lowry will be included for salary matching purposes. However, that doesn't seem to be a great match for Portland since they already have Scoot and Simmons, and maybe they'd want to seize the opportunity to shed a bit of salary. So maybe the Spurs could bet themselves involved here by taking Lowry and sending Portland, say, Graham and Birch or something like that. Portland saves money for a player they don't have much use for, and the Spurs get a vet PG by adding just 10M to their already guaranteed payroll. I thought about adding an extra second rounder, but I don't think Brian Wright wants to let go of his PRECIOUSSSS......
https://i.ibb.co/MR5py0q/precious.jpg

[scott]

Smart that the Knicks are now just trading away their FRPs rather than using them on guys who won’t get a 2nd contract. :lol

[scott]

Hey guys, an idea here: with Dame going to Miami almost a certainty, it seems likely that Lowry will be included for salary matching purposes. However, that doesn't seem to be a great match for Portland since they already have Scoot and Simmons, and maybe they'd want to seize the opportunity to shed a bit of salary. So maybe the Spurs could bet themselves involved here by taking Lowry and sending Portland, say, Graham and Birch or something like that. Portland saves money for a player they don't have much use for, and the Spurs get a vet PG by adding just 10M to their already guaranteed payroll. I thought about adding an extra second rounder, but I don't think Brian Wright wants to let go of his PRECIOUSSSS......
https://i.ibb.co/MR5py0q/precious.jpg

The seems like how we end up participating, but wouldn’t we get some draft capital coming our way for taking this on and facilitating? Or what if Miami included Jacquez to us for taking Lowry?

[Mr. Body]

Hey guys, an idea here: with Dame going to Miami almost a certainty, it seems likely that Lowry will be included for salary matching purposes. However, that doesn't seem to be a great match for Portland since they already have Scoot and Simmons, and maybe they'd want to seize the opportunity to shed a bit of salary. So maybe the Spurs could bet themselves involved here by taking Lowry and sending Portland, say, Graham and Birch or something like that. Portland saves money for a player they don't have much use for, and the Spurs get a vet PG by adding just 10M to their already guaranteed payroll. I thought about adding an extra second rounder, but I don't think Brian Wright wants to let go of his PRECIOUSSSS......
https://i.ibb.co/MR5py0q/precious.jpg

I've been sort of interested in Lowry since the start. It's a big chunk of money, but if he's willing to play for the Spurs and for his next contract somewhere, it's not a bad idea. I would want a first round pick for helping though. Otherwise I'd just stay out.

[Ariel]

The seems like how we end up participating, but wouldn’t we get some draft capital coming our way for taking this on and facilitating? Or what if Miami included Jacquez to us for taking Lowry?
I wouldn't call this "facilitating" as they can get it done without us, plus Portland will dry out every bit of draft capital Miami has and whatever compensation remains would have to come from Portland. In the end I suppose it comes down to what does Portland prefer, if they want Lowry of the capspace. If it's the latter, simply absorbing him might do, it's more like taking advantage of a mutually beneficial opportunity for both Portland and the Spurs (kind of a side deal, tbh).
Also, I hadn't really thought about it, but if Portland gets a hold of Jaquez simply as an asset but they're not super high on him, I'd love to get him by offering a few second rounders if possible. He's the guy I wanted at 33 all along.

[Ariel]

I've been sort of interested in Lowry since the start. It's a big chunk of money, but if he's willing to play for the Spurs and for his next contract somewhere, it's not a bad idea. I would want a first round pick for helping though. Otherwise I'd just stay out.
In my proposed deal Portland would be shedding about 10M (roughly Lowry 29M vs Graham 12M & Birch 7M), the going rate for that cap space in this market is just a 2nd (we just witnessed it ourselves). Plus Lowry is useful, he's not your regular dump. I think it'd be too greedy to expect to come out with both Lowry AND a first round pick in this deal.

[Mr. Body]

Lowry, as an expiring, might be flippable for Portland to get another actual asset for a team wanting to dump salary.

[scott]

I wouldn't call this "facilitating" as they can get it done without us, plus Portland will dry out every bit of draft capital Miami has and whatever compensation remains would have to come from Portland. In the end I suppose it comes down to what does Portland prefer, if they want Lowry of the capspace. If it's the latter, simply absorbing him might do, it's more like taking advantage of a mutually beneficial opportunity for both Portland and the Spurs (kind of a side deal, tbh).
Also, I hadn't really thought about it, but if Portland gets a hold of Jaquez simply as an asset but they're not super high on him, I'd love to get him by offering a few second rounders if possible. He's the guy I wanted at 33 all along.

But if Portland prefers the cap space over Lowry… then we are kind of facilitating, aren’t we? The important factor here being Lowry’s $30M. Someone is going to have to pay it, and even if the Spurs think Lowry is the perfect PG for this upcoming season, they certainly don’t want to pay him $30M… thus the need for some capital coming our way.

[Ariel]

But if Portland prefers the cap space over Lowry… then we are kind of facilitating, aren’t we? The important factor here being Lowry’s $30M. Someone is going to have to pay it, and even if the Spurs think Lowry is the perfect PG for this upcoming season, they certainly don’t want to pay him $30M… thus the need for some capital coming our way.
It depends on how much salary you take in, the more reasonable scenario is that they also take an expiring back and then it isn't the full 29M but the difference that they're moving out. In the scenario I laid out, they were taking Graham and Birch from us, so the difference came down to about 10M which should be about 1 2nd rounder. But if it were the full 29M some team is absorbing, then yes, that'd call for something more substantial.

[Cabrito]

Jacquez signed his rookie deal with the Heat so he cannot be traded for 30 days. He won’t be involved in any deal soon.

[CGD]

Spurs should trade Cedi & Berch for Fournier. 2 players for one. If they lock up Barlow they’ll likely have to just eat Berch’s deal anyway, so might as well get a player that could have value at the deadline.

[RC_Drunkford]

Cedi should have some value at the deadline for contenders with slim benches, which are basically all of them

[buttsR4rebounding]

Spurs should trade Cedi & Berch for Fournier. 2 players for one. If they lock up Barlow they’ll likely have to just eat Berch’s deal anyway, so might as well get a player that could have value at the deadline.

Add IQ in the deal and the Spurs have their starting PG.

[spurraider21]

Spurs notable expiring contracts:

McDermott - 13.75
Graham* - 12.1
Bullock - 10.5
Birch - 7.0
Osman - 6.7

*Graham also has 2.9 guaranteed in 24/25. Zollins is also expiring at 7.7 but cant really see him being traded. an extension seems a lot more likely imo

not including Zollins, thats just over 50 mil

given the roster right now though, at least 2 guys have to get cut to get the roster down to 15. lamar stevens seems to be a likely one. otherwise... would guess Birch

[mo7888]

Spurs notable expiring contracts:

McDermott - 13.75
Graham* - 12.1
Bullock - 10.5
Birch - 7.0
Osman - 6.7

*Graham also has 2.9 guaranteed in 24/25. Zollins is also expiring at 7.7 but cant really see him being traded. an extension seems a lot more likely imo

not including Zollins, thats just over 50 mil

given the roster right now though, at least 2 guys have to get cut to get the roster down to 15. lamar stevens seems to be a likely one. otherwise... would guess Birch

That's a good bit of value in itself and several of those guys can actually provide something for an acquiring team other than the contract.

[mo7888]

PICKS TRADE: The Memphis Grizzlies are trading three second-round picks to the Phoenix Suns for two first-round pick swaps (2024 and 2030) and Isaiah Todd, sources tell ESPN. The seconds are 2025 via Pels, and Memphis’ 2028 and 2029 picks.

Woj

Looks like BW has started a trend

[rankingtear]

PHX traded a swap twice. This is getting weird.

[Seventyniner]

Phoenix looks like another team that's trying to stockpile seconds in anticipation of being a perennial second apron team.

I would look for Golden State and the Clippers to get on this wagon soon.

[scott]

PICKS TRADE: The Memphis Grizzlies are trading three second-round picks to the Phoenix Suns for two first-round pick swaps (2024 and 2030) and Isaiah Todd, sources tell ESPN. The seconds are 2025 via Pels, and Memphis’ 2028 and 2029 picks.

Woj

Looks like BW has started a trend

These are going to come back and bite some of these teams in the ass so hard at some point and I'm here for it.

[mo7888]

I hope we can get in on this with a few more seconds..

[RC_Drunkford]

Nevermind

[scott]

Apparently the swap is for the LESSER of PHX/WAS in both 2024 and 2030... so not quite as juicy as the Swap Brian Wright got us

[scott]

Logistics question: can a team acquire multiple swaps for the same year?

For example, could the Spurs go and trade for 2030 Swap rights with Detroit and Denver? So they'd have Swap rights with Dallas, Denver and Detroit... and then just exercise the right with the best pick of the 3?

[spurraider21]

Apparently the swap is for the LESSER of PHX/WAS in both 2024 and 2030... so not quite as juicy as the Swap Brian Wright got us
2024 swap from phoenix is basically completely worthless. its basically the lesser of of the 2030 picks. 2030 is so far out its hard to tell what will be what for any of the 3 teams involved. but getting the lesser of 2 picks... the odds that either of them is a great pick is very slim

phoenix probably feels they're not going to really lose anything here anyway. kinda low risk low reward for both teams

[Seventyniner]

Logistics question: can a team acquire multiple swaps for the same year?

For example, could the Spurs go and trade for 2030 Swap rights with Detroit and Denver? So they'd have Swap rights with Dallas, Denver and Detroit... and then just exercise the right with the best pick of the 3?

I don't see what would prevent it, though I'd imagine a team could only exercise its swap rights once in a given draft.

For example, say the Spurs have unprotected 2030 swap rights with Dallas, Detroit, and Denver, and the draft slots are DET 8, DAL 18, DEN 21, SA 27 (some wishful thinking here).

The Spurs could swap with Detroit directly, but with no restrictions on how many swaps can be used they could swap with Denver, then Dallas, then Detroit. That would still leave the Spurs with the #8 pick but it would shuffle the order of the other teams: DAL 18/DEN 21/DET 27 if the Spurs swap directly with Detroit, or DET 18/DAL 21/DEN 27 if the Spurs go up the chain. 4 of the 6 orderings of those three teams would be possible, and it doesn't make sense to allow the Spurs to dictate that.

[scott]

I don't see what would prevent it, though I'd imagine a team could only exercise its swap rights once in a given draft.

For example, say the Spurs have unprotected 2030 swap rights with Dallas, Detroit, and Denver, and the draft slots are DET 8, DAL 18, DEN 21, SA 27 (some wishful thinking here).

The Spurs could swap with Detroit directly, but with no restrictions on how many swaps can be used they could swap with Denver, then Dallas, then Detroit. That would still leave the Spurs with the #8 pick but it would shuffle the order of the other teams: DAL 18/DEN 21/DET 27 if the Spurs swap directly with Detroit, or DET 18/DAL 21/DEN 27 if the Spurs go up the chain. 4 of the 6 orderings of those three teams would be possible, and it doesn't make sense to allow the Spurs to dictate that.

In your scenario of DET 8, DAL 18, DEN 21, SA 27, I'd assume that the result would only be SA 8, DAL 18, DEN 21, DET 27. SA would have the right to swap with any one of the picks (obviously you'd choose the highest) but it cannot dictate what happens with any of the others at that point.

[TD 21]

Stein reports: The Raptors "are far more inclined to trade Siakam than initially realized, it's increasingly conceivable he could be moved and the Pacers (joining Hawks) have emerged as a legit suitor".

Guessing Hawks offer is Hunter, Capela, Bufkin + draft capital and Pacers offer is Hield, Theis, Nembhard + draft capital.

Wonder if Spurs could be a third team facilitator. I don't want Capela and he's not their preferred C archetype, but he'd be an option. The Mavericks (Hardaway Jr., McGee + draft capital) and maybe Pelicans (Valanciunas + Lewis Jr.), could be suitors, but it wouldn't help them duck the tax.

[spurraider21]

Stein reports: The Raptors "are far more inclined to trade Siakam than initially realized, it's increasingly conceivable he could be moved and the Pacers (joining Hawks) have emerged as a legit suitor".

Guessing Hawks offer is Hunter, Capela, Bufkin + draft capital and Pacers offer is Hield, Theis, Nembhard + draft capital.

Wonder if Spurs could be a third team facilitator. I don't want Capela and he's not their preferred C archetype, but he'd be an option. The Mavericks (Hardaway Jr., McGee + draft capital) and maybe Pelicans (Valanciunas + Lewis Jr.), could be suitors, but it wouldn't help them duck the tax.
Get in on Bufkin. Send a 1, 2 SRPs, and eat some salary to get it done

[mo7888]

Stein reports: The Raptors "are far more inclined to trade Siakam than initially realized, it's increasingly conceivable he could be moved and the Pacers (joining Hawks) have emerged as a legit suitor".

Guessing Hawks offer is Hunter, Capela, Bufkin + draft capital and Pacers offer is Hield, Theis, Nembhard + draft capital.

Wonder if Spurs could be a third team facilitator. I don't want Capela and he's not their preferred C archetype, but he'd be an option. The Mavericks (Hardaway Jr., McGee + draft capital) and maybe Pelicans (Valanciunas + Lewis Jr.), could be suitors, but it wouldn't help them duck the tax.

I wonder if this is part of the expanded trade the Mavs are trying to do with the Grant Williams s&t?

[exstatic]

Get in on Bufkin. Send a 1, 2 SRPs, and eat some salary to get it done

Raps aren't burning it down. No reason to trade young, cheap players. They're shopping Siakam because they just lost FVV for nothing, and both Siakam and OG are FAs next summer, and they would probably lose another player for nothing.

[spurraider21]

Raps aren't burning it down. No reason to trade young, cheap players. They're shopping Siakam because they just lost FVV for nothing, and both Siakam and OG are FAs next summer, and they would probably lose another player for nothing.
Bufkin isn’t a raptor

[Mr. Body]

Stein reports: The Raptors "are far more inclined to trade Siakam than initially realized, it's increasingly conceivable he could be moved and the Pacers (joining Hawks) have emerged as a legit suitor".

Guessing Hawks offer is Hunter, Capela, Bufkin + draft capital and Pacers offer is Hield, Theis, Nembhard + draft capital.

Wonder if Spurs could be a third team facilitator. I don't want Capela and he's not their preferred C archetype, but he'd be an option. The Mavericks (Hardaway Jr., McGee + draft capital) and maybe Pelicans (Valanciunas + Lewis Jr.), could be suitors, but it wouldn't help them duck the tax.

The Mavs have been rumored to be in on Capela for a while.

[RC_Drunkford]

would be nice for our Raptors pick. Pick is Top 6 protected so if it lands between 7 and 10 that would be ideal

[Seventyniner]

Raps aren't burning it down. No reason to trade young, cheap players. They're shopping Siakam because they just lost FVV for nothing, and both Siakam and OG are FAs next summer, and they would probably lose another player for nothing.

If they were going to burn things down now would be the time to do so, when the only way they can be guaranteed to keep their first is to have a bottom 2 record.

But it would make more sense to try and be a middling team again this year, get rid of their obligation to the Spurs, and perhaps S&T Siakam and OG next summer and really tank. A lot of the players and FO would be unhappy, but the Raps seem to be stuck on the mediocrity treadmill.

[BacktoBasics]

The Mavs have been rumored to be in on Capela for a while.

He wouldn’t be an awful fit for the Mavs.

[Ariel]

Stein reports: The Raptors "are far more inclined to trade Siakam than initially realized, it's increasingly conceivable he could be moved and the Pacers (joining Hawks) have emerged as a legit suitor".

Guessing Hawks offer is Hunter, Capela, Bufkin + draft capital and Pacers offer is Hield, Theis, Nembhard + draft capital.

Wonder if Spurs could be a third team facilitator. I don't want Capela and he's not their preferred C archetype, but he'd be an option. The Mavericks (Hardaway Jr., McGee + draft capital) and maybe Pelicans (Valanciunas + Lewis Jr.), could be suitors, but it wouldn't help them duck the tax.
Siakam to a team other than Atlanta works great for us. They're not bad enough for a hard tank, but they should have a bottom 10 record, that's the sweet spot. Atlanta's picks are longer term, but Siakam is a better fit than they currently have, so I don't want him there.

[Mr. Body]

Siakam to a team other than Atlanta works great for us. They're not bad enough for a hard tank, but they should have a bottom 10 record, that's the sweet spot. Atlanta's picks are longer term, but Siakam is a better fit than they currently have, so I don't want him there.

Atlanta hired Quinn Snyder. Trae is starting to emphasize team chemistry. The team is making better moves (bailing on Collins) and looking for better balance.

There's a good chance the ATL picks won't be the manna we hope for. But they'll be mid-round at least.

[Ariel]

Atlanta hired Quinn Snyder. Trae is starting to emphasize team chemistry. The team is making better moves (bailing on Collins) and looking for better balance.

There's a good chance the ATL picks won't be the manna we hope for. But they'll be mid-round at least.
I think so too, Snyder was a good hire for them and they're starting to target pieces that make more sense. That said, they have little flexibility and not enough talent, middle of the pack seems most likely, which in all honesty isn't bad value for Dejounte.

[TD 21]

Siakam to a team other than Atlanta works great for us. They're not bad enough for a hard tank, but they should have a bottom 10 record, that's the sweet spot. Atlanta's picks are longer term, but Siakam is a better fit than they currently have, so I don't want him there.

I'd amend my Pacers fake trade to + Nesmith and Smith and - Theis.

Still think the Hawks ones is better though and it sounds like they're the most motivated.

Either way, they'd still be a non contender and volatile situation that could easily go sideways within' the next few years.

[mo7888]

If the Blazers can come out of this with four first-round picks, at least one or two young talents, and then salary-filler, that should get it done. I’m told that right now, Miami has three firsts, Tyler Herro, filler and maybe a young player already [as their offer], like willing to go with that. The question is finding that fourth first-round pick. And if you don’t want Herro, you just have to find someone to take Herro and give you another first-round pick. Then you’re at four firsts and at least one young player and salary filler, maybe even two young players. I’m told it’s pretty close, they just have to figure out. They hadn’t really spent much time working it out over the last couple of days.

Aaron Fentress

In this scenario it would seem that the only two rumored teams linked to Herro are us and the Nets. 'If' wewant him id think ots the Charlotte pick and filler. If it's the Nets(and I think it is) i wonder if we might get Dinwiddie for a year?

[scott]

If the Blazers can come out of this with four first-round picks, at least one or two young talents, and then salary-filler, that should get it done. I’m told that right now, Miami has three firsts, Tyler Herro, filler and maybe a young player already [as their offer], like willing to go with that. The question is finding that fourth first-round pick. And if you don’t want Herro, you just have to find someone to take Herro and give you another first-round pick. Then you’re at four firsts and at least one young player and salary filler, maybe even two young players. I’m told it’s pretty close, they just have to figure out. They hadn’t really spent much time working it out over the last couple of days.

Aaron Fentress

In this scenario it would seem that the only two rumored teams linked to Herro are us and the Nets. 'If' wewant him id think ots the Charlotte pick and filler. If it's the Nets(and I think it is) i wonder if we might get Dinwiddie for a year?

While I don’t think we are actually in play for Herro, this is why my best offer for him is the CHA pick. Miami and Portland need us to want Herro, and while I like him, it’s not like he is a golden acquisition for us. I want to find a way to move off the CHA pick, and if I can get Herro for it that seems like a win.

Might actually prefer flipping the CHA pick forward into a future, similarly protected, FRP though.

[Mr. Body]

If the Blazers can come out of this with four first-round picks, at least one or two young talents, and then salary-filler, that should get it done. I’m told that right now, Miami has three firsts, Tyler Herro, filler and maybe a young player already [as their offer], like willing to go with that. The question is finding that fourth first-round pick. And if you don’t want Herro, you just have to find someone to take Herro and give you another first-round pick. Then you’re at four firsts and at least one young player and salary filler, maybe even two young players. I’m told it’s pretty close, they just have to figure out. They hadn’t really spent much time working it out over the last couple of days.

Aaron Fentress

In this scenario it would seem that the only two rumored teams linked to Herro are us and the Nets. 'If' wewant him id think ots the Charlotte pick and filler. If it's the Nets(and I think it is) i wonder if we might get Dinwiddie for a year?

Utah supposedly has interest in Herro.

I don't think the Spurs have any interest.

[Big Empty]

Herro, 23 and can hit the 3! I think he would fit right in

[tonight...you]

Herro, 23 and can hit the 3! I think he would fit right in
Where?

[Seventyniner]

While I don’t think we are actually in play for Herro, this is why my best offer for him is the CHA pick. Miami and Portland need us to want Herro, and while I like him, it’s not like he is a golden acquisition for us. I want to find a way to move off the CHA pick, and if I can get Herro for it that seems like a win.

Might actually prefer flipping the CHA pick forward into a future, similarly protected, FRP though.

If the Spurs actually wanted Herro the deal would probably already be done.

[scott]

If the Spurs actually wanted Herro the deal would probably already be done.

I agree with this, those Jaime Jaquez complicates things slightly. If he’s part of the deal, it can’t go down for a few more weeks.

But like I said… I don’t think we are actually in play for Herro, which no one should lose any sleep over (including those of us who think he’d be a good addition, like me).

[bankshot]

Where?
Austin

[Seventyniner]

I agree with this, those Jaime Jaquez complicates things slightly. If he’s part of the deal, it can’t go down for a few more weeks.

But like I said… I don’t think we are actually in play for Herro, which no one should lose any sleep over (including those of us who think he’d be a good addition, like me).

Good point about Jacquez. Him, Jovic, Herro (to the extent a team views him as a positive), 2028/2030 unprotected firsts, and 2024/2027/2029 unprotected swaps are the only assets Miami has to offer. If the Heat can talk the Thunder into removing the protection on the 2025 pick (maybe throw them a second?), they could instead trade 2027/2029 unprotected firsts and 2024/2026/2028/2030 unprotected swaps instead.

Sending out only Lowry and Robinson makes salaries match, but the Heat just don't plain have enough assets to dump Robinson and acquire Lilliard unless some other team out there actually wants Herro. To me, Herro is a league average scorer that only put up his numbers due to high usage.

[exstatic]

Good point about Jacquez. Him, Jovic, Herro (to the extent a team views him as a positive), 2028/2030 unprotected firsts, and 2024/2027/2029 unprotected swaps are the only assets Miami has to offer. If the Heat can talk the Thunder into removing the protection on the 2025 pick (maybe throw them a second?), they could instead trade 2027/2029 unprotected firsts and 2024/2026/2028/2030 unprotected swaps instead.

Sending out only Lowry and Robinson makes salaries match, but the Heat just don't plain have enough assets to dump Robinson and acquire Lilliard unless some other team out there actually wants Herro. To me, Herro is a league average scorer that only put up his numbers due to high usage.

The 2025 pick is going from Miami to OKC, so Miami can remove it at their discretion. It’s their protection, not OKCs.

[MannyIsGod]

If the Spurs actually wanted Herro the deal would probably already be done.

If the Spurs weren't actively involved in trade talks they would finalize their summer signings and afaik they haven't.

[exstatic]

If the Spurs weren't actively involved in trade talks they would finalize their summer signings and afaik they haven't.

Those hypothetical trade talks don't have to be Portland related. It's possible that someone wants our ending contracts, and it may be one of the Portland deal parties, but there is already an extreme shortage of picks available in the deal, and we aren't selling cap space for free.

The Spurs don't close doors until they have to. Even if they're not actively in talks rn, they're not going to waive anyone until they have to. They'll keep those ending contracts available up to the last minute, just in case.

[spurraider21]

If the Spurs weren't actively involved in trade talks they would finalize their summer signings and afaik they haven't.
they did finalize champagnie fwiw

its Tre and Mamu who have not been formalized yet

Tre's cap hold pending the finalization of his contract is about 5.2 mil. barlow is at 1.8 right now. mamu is 2.2 so collectively, those 3 guys add up to about 9.2 mil

the spurs actual contracts + the primo dead cap hit add up to about 118.5 mil. if you add those cap holds, you are at 127.7. with the cap being at roughly 136, we have about 8.3 mil or so in cap space. ive rounded off all the numbers to this point, but thats a solid approximation

im also not completely clear on Lamar Stevens' contract. my understanding is that it is non-guaratneed, meaning we could clear about 1.9 by waiving him, but im not 100% as to that. hypothetically would get us to about 10.2 in space to make additional moves if that indeed is the case. trey/mamu and even potentially barlow could be signed above the cap via bird rights

[MannyIsGod]

they did finalize champagnie fwiw

its Tre and Mamu who have not been formalized yet

Tre's cap hold pending the finalization of his contract is about 5.2 mil. barlow is at 1.8 right now. mamu is 2.2 so collectively, those 3 guys add up to about 9.2 mil

the spurs actual contracts + the primo dead cap hit add up to about 118.5 mil. if you add those cap holds, you are at 127.7. with the cap being at roughly 136, we have about 8.3 mil or so in cap space. ive rounded off all the numbers to this point, but thats a solid approximation

im also not completely clear on Lamar Stevens' contract. my understanding is that it is non-guaratneed, meaning we could clear about 1.9 by waiving him, but im not 100% as to that. hypothetically would get us to about 10.2 in space to make additional moves if that indeed is the case

Tre's caphold can be dropped to a much lower amount by pulling his QO. Although Chinook mentioned there was a deadline for that and I don't remember what it is.

[spurraider21]

Tre's caphold can be dropped to a much lower amount by pulling his QO. Although Chinook mentioned there was a deadline for that and I don't remember what it is.
im not sure if we would retain bird rights or not by pulling his QO. i think we would still have them, the QO should just change his status from RFA to UFA. different step than renouncing him. but yeah thats interesting.

if we do get involved in one of the big rumored trades, whether it be lillard/harden/siakam, we dont necessarily have to absorb entire contracts the way we did with cedi/bullock either. we can still send back some salary. obviously would devalue the trade compensation we'd expect, but noteworthy nevertheless.

[spurraider21]

apparently miami wants to get a 2025 FRP for Herro, because it would free up their ability to move their 2024 and 2026 picks as part of a lillard deal. right now because they dont own their 2025 pick, they can only offer 2027 and 2029 (or 2028 and 2030)... if they get a 2025 first, they can give the 24/26/28/30

[Ariel]

If the Spurs weren't actively involved in trade talks they would finalize their summer signings and afaik they haven't.
That's not the same thing though. They may be involved in trade talks with whomever, not necessarily Miami/Portland. And even if they are, they may be interested in some other piece or asset, not necessarily Herro.

[Mr. Body]

That's not the same thing though. They may be involved in trade talks with whomever, not necessarily Miami/Portland. And even if they are, they may be interested in some other piece or asset, not necessarily Herro.

Right, there are still a lot of teams sitting above certain tax levels, the Harden situation hasn't been resolved. It's very unlikely the Spurs are involved in the Lillard trade if they don't want Herro since they're looking for draft assets and there are none to be had there. Although I can see a consolidation trade of guys-for-Kyle-Lowry maybe.

[Bruno]

If Spurs haven't signed Tre Jones, it's likely because they have some trade talks with other teams. After the Bullock trade, there was a report about Spurs still willing to take contracts for draft picks:

San Antonio remains open to taking on unwanted contracts around the league in exchange for draft pick compensation, league sources told HoopsHype.

I doubt it's linked to a potential Lillard trade. The Lillard trade could take weeks/months to be completed and Spurs won't ask Tre Jones to remain unsigned for that long. There are some rumors about Phoenix salary dumping Cameron Payne, it could be a trade like Payne and a second for Spurs' cap space.

[MannyIsGod]

That's not the same thing though. They may be involved in trade talks with whomever, not necessarily Miami/Portland. And even if they are, they may be interested in some other piece or asset, not necessarily Herro.

No, it doesn't limit it to Hero but knowing they're active in negotiations does mean Hero is more likely than it otherwise would be.
It all depends on how they value him which none of us know.

[exstatic]

No, it doesn't limit it to Hero but knowing they're active in negotiations does mean Hero is more likely than it otherwise would be.
It all depends on how they value him which none of us know.

If the valued him, at all, he’d be here already. They’re literally looking for one FRP.

[MannyIsGod]

If the valued him, at all, he’d be here already. They’re literally looking for one FRP.

If they were going to trade him straight up for one frp they would have done it by now. We know there are plenty of teams who would do that deal today. They likey need to fold it into the larger deal due to salary matching consideration since they are over the cap and Lillard's deal is massive.

[mo7888]

If the valued him, at all, he’d be here already. They’re literally looking for one FRP.

That's what i thought as well, but this morning, I woke up and read that Miami hasn't put their best assets on the table to Portland for Lillard because no one is bidding against them. If that's true it does have implications for what we may or may not be interested in.

[RC_Drunkford]

That's what i thought as well, but this morning, I woke up and read that Miami hasn't put their best assets on the table to Portland for Lillard because no one is bidding against them. If that's true it does have implications for what we may or may not be interested in.

from what has been reported prior they told Portland take whoever you want except for Jimmy and Bam. They offered the entire roster except those 2.

[mo7888]

from what has been reported prior they told Portland take whoever you want except for Jimmy and Bam. They offered the entire roster except those 2.

https://twitter.com/esidery/status/1680047289589432320?t=HGJvtFGFSMb3R19YBtCJLQ&s=19

Here Woj says Miami isn't in a hurry to get this deal done and put all their chips on the table because no one is bidding against them.

[MannyIsGod]

Any deal for Lillard almost certainly involves Hero because both his value and his contract. He may be rerouted but I have a hard time seeing how you realistically make the salaries work without him.

[TDMVPDPOY]

is port also moving their starting c?

spurs need a starting c and pg...if we are involve, we need 1 of the 2 pieces and draft picks to bail out both teams to get that trade done..or else the spurms aint doing anyone favors

[Kurik]

is port also moving their starting c?

spurs need a starting c and pg...if we are involve, we need 1 of the 2 pieces and draft picks to bail out both teams to get that trade done..or else the spurms aint doing anyone favors

We don’t want the contract Nurkic is on.

[Ariel]

Any deal for Lillard almost certainly involves Hero because both his value and his contract. He may be rerouted but I have a hard time seeing how you realistically make the salaries work without him.
They could do Lowry + Caleb Martin + Jaquez (once eligible in a couple weeks) + Jovic + filler, without Herro or Duncan Robinson. The problems are:
1) Fiding a taker for Herro that returns draft assets makes it more palatable for Portland and allows Miami to remove a couple assets they need (likely Caleb Martin and Jaquez).
2) Moving Duncan Robinson or Herro removes long term financial commitment for Miami that would give them a lot more flexibility.
I think they're both FOs are looking at each other to see who blinks first, if I'm Portland I demand all Miami assets (2 picks + 3 swaps) + Jaquez + at least one more pick from a 3rd team for Herro + expiring contracts (Lowry).

[exstatic]

We don’t want the contract Nurkic is on.

No one wants that contract, and it’s a pipe dream for Portland to think they can roll him into the Dame trade.

[CGD]

So now that the dust has settled (?) who has the finally tally of how the Spurs used their capspace this summer? I’ve lost track.

[mo7888]

https://twitter.com/TheRally/status/1681326992254287876?t=WqUxC92_9fx9PLv6DlHH3A&s=19

[CGD]

Interesting musings on the Fournier situation in NYC. He was asked about Wemby/Spurs. Fournier is a "consolidation trade" candidate -- Berch, Osman, Payne get you about there.

https://sports.yahoo.com/knicks-evan-fournier-has-no-relationship-with-tom-thibodeau-is-ready-to-leave-new-york-160927313.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMFSoHm_lujSvCSPQHNN9yhiAeJ5 n6l14QjxvlZSHOaGGHZIicQ9ufwHdV_Bck_nPAJfR6_MJ4nov2 BIX4zwxa4PDJv54Zd5Th7uRebf5hqlukzP7nOPZs8mNbpnocPl QadkIMvfk77wfwykuZAL_0Fj9jpwB-TeMOfH-xAKG2hO

[Chinook]

Issue with Don't Google is that he plays a position that is extremely crowded between Vassell, Johnson, Branham, Champagnie, McDermott, Cissoko and maybe others if they slide around. It's not like Lowry where you can at least hope the guy plays for you. Evan shouldn't a target for the Spurs without them getting incentive back at least.

[vander]

is port also moving their starting c?

spurs need a starting c and pg...if we are involve, we need 1 of the 2 pieces and draft picks to bail out both teams to get that trade done..or else the spurms aint doing anyone favors

yeah, I wouldn't mind taking Lowry and Nurk in thier trade for a couple pick swaps or something, I don't really like all these nobodies the Spurs have traded for.

[sfernald]

yeah, I wouldn't mind taking Lowry and Nurk in thier trade for a couple pick swaps or something, I don't really like all these nobodies the Spurs have traded for.

I think the guys they are picking up aren’t really nobodies. They just are past their hype period. Instead of getting Austin Reeves at his peek salary after one good year with the lakers, we are getting him five years later after he didn’t meet the crazy expectations and got traded to Detroit and is now on a contract year to year after injurying himself a bit. But in the end he is 80-90% of the same player and might just have a great comeback year with the spurs. These are the guys that are grabbing, all on reasonable expiring contracts. They all shoot the three pointer above average. They all are vets with experience. And either they love the system and exceed expectations and maybe we sign ‘em to a long term or we turn them before the end of the year for assets or maybe do a trade consolidation for someone better. Tons of options with these types of players.

[RC_Drunkford]

1681331105943658500

[BacktoBasics]

I haven’t followed Cleveland. I thought Allen had looked better this last year? Is he just an easier to move piece or do they not like his fit next to Mobley.

[exstatic]

I haven’t followed Cleveland. I thought Allen had looked better this last year? Is he just an easier to move piece or do they not like his fit next to Mobley.

Second Apron is looming, and he's the obvs candidate.

[CGD]

1681331105943658500

its funny how the inclusion of one word - should - takes this from a potentially interesting rumor to a mega nothingburger.

[exstatic]

The Timberwolves are SO screwed. They're a play in team with a $216M payroll. Fire sale incoming.

[CGD]

I haven’t followed Cleveland. I thought Allen had looked better this last year? Is he just an easier to move piece or do they not like his fit next to Mobley.

In someways paring Mobley with Allen is similar to the theory the spurs seem to have with Wemby. Aside from the $$ issues flagged by others, maybe CLE thought is was time for Mobley to spread his wings, again, something that will eventually happen with Wemby circa year 3.

Allen is a solid player, and unlike Jakob (who got similar $$) this guy will dunk the crap out of the ball and get those impact blocks that change the tone of a game. I like him, but i really didnt like how he got manhandled on the boards in the playoffs by the Knicks. That was supposed to be his calling card.

[CGD]

The Timberwolves are SO screwed. They're a play in team with a $216M payroll. Fire sale incoming.

Yup, and i would happily take Conley from them for the year.

[exstatic]

Yup, and i would happily take Conley from them for the year.

I wouldn't hate it, but he's not a contract they need to shed. He's an ending contract, and we can only offer them ending contracts, so it's a push for them unless their roster is short of players like Miami is/will be.

They need to literally dump KAT into someone's cap space for a SRP, or they're gonna have their 31 FRP frozen next summer.

[MultiTroll]

Interesting musings on the Fournier situation in NYC. He was asked about Wemby/Spurs. Fournier is a "consolidation trade" candidate -- Berch, Osman, Payne get you about there.

https://sports.yahoo.com/knicks-evan-fournier-has-no-relationship-with-tom-thibodeau-is-ready-to-leave-new-york-160927313.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAMFSoHm_lujSvCSPQHNN9yhiAeJ5 n6l14QjxvlZSHOaGGHZIicQ9ufwHdV_Bck_nPAJfR6_MJ4nov2 BIX4zwxa4PDJv54Zd5Th7uRebf5hqlukzP7nOPZs8mNbpnocPl QadkIMvfk77wfwykuZAL_0Fj9jpwB-TeMOfH-xAKG2hO
Fournier washed or just mismanaged?

[Mr. Body]

1681331105943658500

I realize no one watched the Spurs last year, but Zach Collins is more than good and he's a better fit than Allen.

[exstatic]

I realize no one watched the Spurs last year, but Zach Collins is more than good and he's a better fit than Allen.

I like Allen, but we don't need to be taking on external contracts of $20M+ ** at a time when we have a ton of FRPs on the roster and a ton more to be drafted in the next 6-7 years.

** exception is a superstar All NBA player.

[RC_Drunkford]

I realize no one watched the Spurs last year, but Zach Collins is more than good and he's a better fit than Allen.

I agree. Collins will look incredible next to Wemby and earn himself a nice contract. He also put up similar numbers to Allen once he got the starting gig.

[spurraider21]

I agree. Collins will look incredible next to Wemby and earn himself a nice contract. He also put up similar numbers to Allen once he got the starting gig.
i like collins quite a bit. offensively he's very talented. defensively... i mean he tries. he's willing to be physical. he's willing to contest shots. i just question his actual effectiveness on that end.

[duncan2150]

I haven’t followed Cleveland. I thought Allen had looked better this last year? Is he just an easier to move piece or do they not like his fit next to Mobley.

His season numbers were down in a lot of areas compared with last year, he was pretty bad against NY during the PO and outplayed by Mitch Robinson.

[exstatic]

i like collins quite a bit. offensively he's very talented. defensively... i mean he tries. he's willing to be physical. he's willing to contest shots. i just question his actual effectiveness on that end.

Rim protection isn't always 100% about blocking shots. One of the reasons they went after Zach was that in his second season, he was in the top 3-4 big men in opp/FG% at the rim. He's a lot like Splitter in that regard, an elite rim protector who doesn't block a ton of shots, but is always in position to contest.

[Mr. Body]

As for Minnesota, they need to get rid of KAT. He's never been that guy and he's tissue paper in the playoffs. They'll owe him between $50-62 million through 27-28. Just a horrendous contract. If Atlanta or the Knicks really want him, send him along before things get really bad.

[poopbox]

I haven’t followed Cleveland. I thought Allen had looked better this last year? Is he just an easier to move piece or do they not like his fit next to Mobley.

Seems they think Mobley can play center on defense so they are thinking about getting something for Allen while they still can.

I'm not so sure Mobley can play center on defense or is actually going to become the player people think he will...but cleveland gonna cleveland so we'll see.

[exstatic]

As for Minnesota, they need to get rid of KAT. He's never been that guy and he's tissue paper in the playoffs. They'll owe him between $50-62 million through 27-28. Just a horrendous contract. If Atlanta or the Knicks really want him, send him along before things get really bad.

The problem is, they need to get rid of him cleanly, either into cap room, or at worst, with ending contracts. They won't get much for him, either, pick wise, because of those stiplulations.

[Mr. Body]

The problem is, they need to get rid of him cleanly, either into cap room, or at worst, with ending contracts. They won't get much for him, either, pick wise, because of those stiplulations.

Right now he's not too far salary-wise from Dejounte. If the Hawks really want him, I'd dive for this in a heartbeat. Wolves get much more balanced and get out of that headache. Try to find filler, etc.

[exstatic]

Right now he's not too far salary-wise from Dejounte. If the Hawks really want him, I'd dive for this in a heartbeat. Wolves get much more balanced and get out of that headache. Try to find filler, etc.

I think a lot of team's wish lists and priorities have changed since the 2nd apron was first announced in April. ATL seemed dead set on getting a good return for Collins, and they settled for the corpse of Rudy Gay, and a SRP just to dump his salary. I highly doubt that they, or anyone else, is anxious to take on KAT's horrific deal.

[spurraider21]

The Timberwolves are SO screwed. They're a play in team with a $216M payroll. Fire sale incoming.
thats their payroll this year, and the KAT and Edwards extensions dont kick in until next season :lol

KAT's pay will jump from 36 to 52, and Edwards from 13.5 to 35.5

looking ahead to next season, their big 3 alone + the recently extended Naz Reid alone will account for 146 mil in salary against the cap. next years cap is gonna be 150 at most

[Seventyniner]

The thing is, KAT is actually a very good player. About the same level as AD imo. People can bag on his attitude and such all they want but there have been plenty of examples of All-Stars being branded as losers on treadmill teams that become key contributors to title teams. AD himself and KG come to mind.

As a percentage of the salary cap, and assuming that the cap rises 10% every year, KAT's contract is 26.5/35.0/34.3/33.6/32.6% of the cap over the next five seasons. If he can be an AD to some team's LeBron that's totally worth it in terms of salary.

For the Spurs specifically I don't think he's a great target because I don't know how well he would mesh with Wemby. KAT is an elite three point shooting big but might not want to spend all his time out there, and Wemby isn't (yet?) a good enough outside shooter to play the outside half of a your-turn-my-turn inside/out pairing with KAT.

Still, the Spurs have had trouble meeting the salary floor the last couple of seasons. While Wemby is on his rookie contract, paying KAT ~34% of the cap is not onerous at all. I wouldn't want to be the team that pays him his next contract but that's a long way down the road.

[spurraider21]

KAT doesnt have the defensive impact that made AD special

[couchman]

KAT wants to play PF and Wemby is currently set to play PF for a season or two. I don't see them co-existing.

[exstatic]

The thing is, KAT is actually a very good player. About the same level as AD imo. People can bag on his attitude and such all they want but there have been plenty of examples of All-Stars being branded as losers on treadmill teams that become key contributors to title teams. AD himself and KG come to mind.

As a percentage of the salary cap, and assuming that the cap rises 10% every year, KAT's contract is 26.5/35.0/34.3/33.6/32.6% of the cap over the next five seasons. If he can be an AD to some team's LeBron that's totally worth it in terms of salary.

For the Spurs specifically I don't think he's a great target because I don't know how well he would mesh with Wemby. KAT is an elite three point shooting big but might not want to spend all his time out there, and Wemby isn't (yet?) a good enough outside shooter to play the outside half of a your-turn-my-turn inside/out pairing with KAT.

Still, the Spurs have had trouble meeting the salary floor the last couple of seasons. While Wemby is on his rookie contract, paying KAT ~34% of the cap is not onerous at all. I wouldn't want to be the team that pays him his next contract but that's a long way down the road.

Super Teams are the dinosaurs looking up at the asteroid. I don't think most people here will really understand the second apron until someone get whacked by their second offense in 4 years, and has their FRP pushed to the end of the round, 5 maybe 6 years out when they won't naturally be there anyway.

It's not that KAT is a bad player, but the salary game has now changed in as profound a way as the 3 point shot changed the floor game. You cannot have one player, let alone two like Minny will have next year, making 1/3 of the cap. They're a fucking play in team, and if they're not careful, they will have their picks locked and moved to the end of the first round, and be hamstrung in their re-build.

[CGD]

KAT is a loser. Stay away

[Seventyniner]

Super Teams are the dinosaurs looking up at the asteroid. I don't think most people here will really understand the second apron until someone get whacked by their second offense in 4 years, and has their FRP pushed to the end of the round, 5 maybe 6 years out when they won't naturally be there anyway.

It's not that KAT is a bad player, but the salary game has now changed in as profound a way as the 3 point shot changed the floor game. You cannot have one player, let alone two like Minny will have next year, making 1/3 of the cap. They're a fucking play in team, and if they're not careful, they will have their picks locked and moved to the end of the first round, and be hamstrung in their re-build.

The Wolves' salary situation is totally untenable given what they have. They are fucked unless they are willing to take 50 cents on the dollar or less in trades.

You can totally have one player make 1/3 of the cap if they are good enough. Two won't work for very long if at all.

If the Spurs were to trade for KAT his contract would only overlap Wemby's extension by one year. That one year would suck, but if the Spurs think KAT is good enough (and available at the right price) it wouldn't necessarily be a deal-breaker. A single season above the second apron in 2027-2028, followed by letting KAT walk in free agency or taking a much smaller deal because he will be 32 by then, shouldn't be a problem if it is planned for carefully.

[exstatic]

The Wolves' salary situation is totally untenable given what they have. They are fucked unless they are willing to take 50 cents on the dollar or less in trades.

You can totally have one player make 1/3 of the cap if they are good enough. Two won't work for very long if at all.

If the Spurs were to trade for KAT his contract would only overlap Wemby's extension by one year. That one year would suck, but if the Spurs think KAT is good enough (and available at the right price) it wouldn't necessarily be a deal-breaker. A single season above the second apron in 2027-2028, followed by letting KAT walk in free agency or taking a much smaller deal because he will be 32 by then, shouldn't be a problem if it is planned for carefully.

That one year could lock one of our picks from being traded in the future if it kicks us into the 2nd apron. KAT puts up decent counting stats, but really, he's a loser. Don't care about his talent, because if you can't lead your team to the playoffs regularly, you're not worth 1/3 of the cap. We don't need to take on their problem.

[RC_Drunkford]

Teams with 2 bigs as their best players will never be successful in this era. You need a big, a wing and a PG as your big 3

[Chinook]

Whether you think Towns would be a good add or not, the idea that the Spurs are going to contend while avoiding other max contracts is ridiculous. The second apron is 34 percent above the cap. There's a lot of room for teams to give out multiple big contracts and stay under. The superteam era is still going on, with the Suns have four max contracts, Minny having three, Miami having three, Denver having three and others. Not all maxes are the same, and the Spurs are only looking at paying either 25 or 30 percent of the cap for Wemby. Towns and Wemby combined in 2027-2028 wouldn't even get the Spurs half-way to the second apron. Even if, say, Sochan or Branham got a max contract, the Spurs would still have almost 90 Million to fill out their rest of their roster. Yes, contracts are bigger, but the MLE that year would still be under $15 Million. The Spurs would also be inundated with rookie-scale players and second-round picks. The Spurs, more than a lot of teams would be able to fill out a competent roster that year.

What they might not really be able to do is keep all of their meh guys on mid-sized or higher contracts. Trying to lock guys like Keldon, Vassell, Jones or whomever into deals that stretch into that season would be risky. Obviously if they only have two max contracts, it would be even easier. Wemby's first max contract would not be anything to worry about in terms of fitting guys with him. The Spurs should 100 percent chase a max contract or two over the next couple of years. Is that Towns? I don't know. I can certainly see why it wouldn't be. But if the piece is there, the numbers aren't a problem. If Wemby's second max is the DPE, then that might be when the salary crunch kicks in.

[Seventyniner]

The Spurs should 100 percent chase a max contract or two over the next couple of years. Is that Towns? I don't know. I can certainly see why it wouldn't be. But if the piece is there, the numbers aren't a problem. If Wemby's second max is the DPE, then that might be when the salary crunch kicks in.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say. Thanks for putting it better.

Saying KAT is not worth his contract is perfectly defensible. Essentially saying that nobody is worth that amount isn't imo. The Spurs can easily operate under the second apron with Wemby and one huge contract for the next 4 years, and possibly the 4 after that.

[RC_Drunkford]

What they might not really be able to do is keep all of their meh guys on mid-sized or higher contracts. Trying to lock guys like Keldon, Vassell, Jones or whomever into deals that stretch into that season would be risky. Obviously if they only have two max contracts, it would be even easier. Wemby's first max contract would not be anything to worry about in terms of fitting guys with him. The Spurs should 100 percent chase a max contract or two over the next couple of years. Is that Towns? I don't know. I can certainly see why it wouldn't be. But if the piece is there, the numbers aren't a problem. If Wemby's second max is the DPE, then that might be when the salary crunch kicks in.

They should, to utilize the cap space and rotation players they got under rookie contracts right now to maximize their chance at winning. The problem is that there are only a handful of players who would fit here. Garland, Doncic, Giannis for example and none of these guys are available as of now.

[Kurik]

I think Donovan Mitchell could be someone to watch out for in 2025, if the Cavs don’t do much in the playoffs over the next year or two he may decide to move on or the Cavs may try to get some assets out of a trade.

[exstatic]

I think Donovan Mitchell could be someone to watch out for in 2025, if the Cavs don’t do much in the playoffs over the next year or two he may decide to move on or the Cavs may try to get some assets out of a trade.

That would be two teams he failed to advance in the playoffs. Not a great look, and not the way to use your cap.

[CGD]

I think Donovan Mitchell could be someone to watch out for in 2025, if the Cavs don’t do much in the playoffs over the next year or two he may decide to move on or the Cavs may try to get some assets out of a trade.

The 2025 UFA belles of the ball will be headlined by Murray (DEN), Ingram, AD, George, Nef, and Lauri (assuming they don’t cut extension deals before that). Believe Mitchell might still be under contract then.

[couchman]

Free agency isn't what it used to be.
Most players force their way out before they even hit FA or teams dump them before then.
Only players with very little leverage/market actually make it to free agency now.
Look at what happened with Harden and Irving and Porzingis and Kuzma.
I mean, Fred VanVleet was the biggest free agent to actually make a move this year lol
If the Spurs want to add a second (or third) star to play with Wemby they either need to develop that player or trade for them.

[TD 21]

In someways paring Mobley with Allen is similar to the theory the spurs seem to have with Wemby. Aside from the $$ issues flagged by others, maybe CLE thought is was time for Mobley to spread his wings, again, something that will eventually happen with Wemby circa year 3.

The Cavaliers should offer Allen and Okoro for Carter Jr. and Fultz. Carter Jr. can spread the floor and has the girth to defend C's, a combination Mobley requires to reach his full potential.



The 2025 UFA belles of the ball will be headlined by Murray (DEN), Ingram, AD, George, Nef, and Lauri (assuming they don’t cut extension deals before that). Believe Mitchell might still be under contract then.

For the moment. In reality, probably all will have re-signed by then since superstar and star players rarely make it to free agency anymore.

If it doesn't happen organically though their draft capital, the Spurs next star is likely to come via trade in a few years time.

[Kurik]

That would be two teams he failed to advance in the playoffs. Not a great look, and not the way to use your cap.

That’s true but players who do advance their teams in the playoffs are not likely to be a trade target unless an unbelievable offer is made or some breakdown with coaching/management happens. I’d much rather have someone like a Mitchell versus most of the free agents coming up over the next couple years.

[Kurik]

The 2025 UFA belles of the ball will be headlined by Murray (DEN), Ingram, AD, George, Nef, and Lauri (assuming they don’t cut extension deals before that). Believe Mitchell might still be under contract then.

Yeah Mitchell won’t be a free agent til 2026 but he’s extension eligible after this season I believe? The Cavs also have Mobley who will be up for an extension I believe in 2025. I just think the Cavs will have to make some tough decisions in a year or two and I wouldn’t be surprised if they trade Mitchell for a lot of capital if they underperform over the next 2 years.

[Obstructed_View]

Teams are not rewarded enough for successful draft picks. If you draft superstars, you shouldn't have to lose them to teams who don't.

[Mr. Body]

Teams are not rewarded enough for successful draft picks. If you draft superstars, you shouldn't have to lose them to teams who don't.

Hasn't this changed in the new CBA? I thought it had provisions to help teams keep their draftees.

[Obstructed_View]

Hasn't this changed in the new CBA? I thought it had provisions to help teams keep their draftees.

I hope so.

[Chinook]

Hasn't this changed in the new CBA? I thought it had provisions to help teams keep their draftees.

Nothing changed, and it shouldn't. The reward for successful draft picks is productive players on cheap contracts and great trade pieces, not the ability to work to pay max contracts to a bunch of stars at the same time. The league does not need more teams like GS

[exstatic]

Teams are not rewarded enough for successful draft picks. If you draft superstars, you shouldn't have to lose them to teams who don't.

LA would have zero championships since 88 in that world.

[exstatic]

Nothing changed, and it shouldn't. The reward for successful draft picks is productive players on cheap contracts and great trade pieces, not the ability to work to pay max contracts to a bunch of stars at the same time. The league does not need more teams like GS

Not true. When players are stolen from a team, it's usually to go form a super team somewhere. THAT just got a lot harder to do with the second apron. Draft pick freezing and possible subsequent forced move to the end of the round, and not being able to attach picks or cash to trades seems to be the line that simple financial penalties never established.

[Mr. Body]

Nothing changed, and it shouldn't. The reward for successful draft picks is productive players on cheap contracts and great trade pieces, not the ability to work to pay max contracts to a bunch of stars at the same time. The league does not need more teams like GS

In an effort to help teams retain players, veteran contract extensions can start as high as 140% of the previous year's salary (up from 120% in the current CBA). Also, non-max rookie contract extensions can now be five years. (Previously, only max rookie extensions could be five years, the rest had to be four.)

This didn't happen?

[Obstructed_View]

Nothing changed, and it shouldn't. The reward for successful draft picks is productive players on cheap contracts and great trade pieces, not the ability to work to pay max contracts to a bunch of stars at the same time. The league does not need more teams like GS
In my system, OKC could have kept Durant away from the warriors.

[scott]

In my system, OKC could have kept Durant away from the warriors.

Yeah, I wish there were some way to allow teams to benefit (cap-wise) by being good at drafting. Like a max player only counts 90% against the cap if you drafted them or something. I get the arguments against, and I don’t like the Superteam era, but I do have respect (as should we all as Spurs fans) for an Organic Big3, and I think it’s bullshit that players have to take “hometown discounts” to do it. Make the owners spend their money, the players earned that bag.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

In my system, OKC could have kept Durant away from the warriors.

Doubt anything would have kept him in OKC. They tried to address the issue by giving teams the ability to pay more because at the time OKC's best offer was the same as GS's money-wise, but this has backfired massively and has only led to teams having terrible contracts on the books like Beal's for example. Nowadays stars take the most money they can and then demand a trade anyway, and to specific teams at that. Free agency is broken. The system is also kind of broken when 99% of the players want to be in only 4 cities out of 28.

[exstatic]

Doubt anything would have kept him in OKC. They tried to address the issue by giving teams the ability to pay more because at the time OKC's best offer was the same as GS's money-wise, but this has backfired massively and has only led to teams having terrible contracts on the books like Beal for example. Nowadays stars take the most money they can and then demand a trade anyway, and to specific teams at that. Free agency is broken. The system is also kind of broken when 99% of the players want to be in only 4 cities out of 28.

I think anyone that takes a MAX bag should be with that team until it expires. A no trade clause, but for the team.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I think anyone that takes a MAX bag should be with that team until it expires. A no trade clause, but for the team.

Can't see any way NBPA would ever agree to this. Teams want to get rid of contracts like Beal's, KAT's, etc. as well.

[JPB]

I think anyone that takes a MAX bag should be with that team until it expires. A no trade clause, but for the team.

Yeah, seems hard to imagine. Not way NBPA accepts that and not good for the teams also actually. Being locked with a maxed guy for 4 or 5 years who may get depressed, lose motivation or whatever isn't what NBA teams would want to eventually constrain themselves into. Gotta always have a way out for both parts.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

In an effort to help teams retain players, veteran contract extensions can start as high as 140% of the previous year's salary (up from 120% in the current CBA). Also, non-max rookie contract extensions can now be five years. (Previously, only max rookie extensions could be five years, the rest had to be four.)

This didn't happen?

They may couch it as helping teams retain players, but all this does is allows team to give bigger contracts with more years when signing veteran extensions. Players can sign these contracts and then demand a trade after securing their bag. If a player wants out, there's not much a franchise can do besides move him.

That's one of the reasons that we are seeing fewer guys hit free agency. There is no downside to them signing as big of a contract as they can, even if they don't like the situation they're in. Don't like the coach? Trade me. Team isn't winning? Trade me. Team won't extend my contract? Trade me. Team is undergoing youth movement? Trade me. My uncle is a jackass? Trade me.

[Chinook]

In an effort to help teams retain players, veteran contract extensions can start as high as 140% of the previous year's salary (up from 120% in the current CBA). Also, non-max rookie contract extensions can now be five years. (Previously, only max rookie extensions could be five years, the rest had to be four.)

This didn't happen?

That happened, but that won't affect draftees besides the freedom to sign a non-max player for five years . First-rounders have their own extension system, and second-rounders make too little for the increase to matter. Like I mentioned way back when, the changes don't affect Collins at all. He was eligible for up to the MLE either way. Most second-rounders make way less on their initial deals.

[Russ]

I think anyone that takes a MAX bag should be with that team until it expires. A no trade clause, but for the team.

I think every team has a de facto no trade clause just by the nature of trades and how they unfold.

But even that can't trump the reality of a player who (publicly) doesn't want to be there.

Human behavior beats any clause you can write every time.

[exstatic]

Can't see any way NBPA would ever agree to this. Teams want to get rid of contracts like Beal's, KAT's, etc. as well.

It would be grandfathered in. Only new MAX deals, and yes, the NBAPA would balk, but I'd want to get them on the record doing so, because it's an admission that their guys sign MAX deal and then force their way out, and they want that to continue.

[Obstructed_View]

In an effort to help teams retain players, veteran contract extensions can start as high as 140% of the previous year's salary (up from 120% in the current CBA). Also, non-max rookie contract extensions can now be five years. (Previously, only max rookie extensions could be five years, the rest had to be four.)
This didn't happen?

If they didn't address the cap hit, then no. Some of these mid teams are already overpaying mid superstars and then they drown in luxury tax. Let the teams pay what they want and give a cap discount based on the number of contracts signed with the drafting team. Encourage front offices to draft well, cultivate their players and give them some ability to negotiate without throwing the entire cap at a player and then getting a trade demand afterward because they have to fill the roster with cast-offs.

[Chinook]

Why is drafting "the right way" to build a team though? If you try to make drafting the only viable way to get stars, you're just encouraging tanking. I agree with Ex and Body that the new CBA will help small-market teams and spread talent around. But it doesn't skew toward building cores through the draft, and that's a very good thing.

[CGD]

Why is drafting "the right way" to build a team though? If you try to make drafting the only viable way to get stars, you're just encouraging tanking. I agree with Ex and Body that the new CBA will help small-market teams and spread talent around. But it doesn't skew toward building cores through the draft, and that's a very good thing.

Think it’s somewhere in the middle. I think you want to “home grow” your two main guys via draft, and then go shopping for the finishing piece(s). Question for spurs is whether Vessel or Sochan are the “second” to Vics first. Not sure yet personally, as much as i love both players.

[Teamduncan21]

Think it’s somewhere in the middle. I think you want to “home grow” your two main guys via draft, and then go shopping for the finishing piece(s). Question for spurs is whether Vessel or Sochan are the “second” to Vics first. Not sure yet personally, as much as i love both players.


It should be middle. Spurs will probably be more biased with homegrown as spurs has always been homegrown. But NBA would like these trades and free agency stuff. Cause it keeps NBA relevant for another few weeks.
We still care about NBA. Talk about reeves until July. Weeks after finals. And this should generate some buzz and indirectly (or even directly) some revenue.

So while small markets can complain. It will be a meet in between

[Seventyniner]

If the league really wanted to reward teams for drafting they could just vote to make the rookie scale contracts 5 or 6 years long instead. Maybe 3 guaranteed years followed by 3 team option years. The only ones this would hurt relative to the current system are players not yet in the league and they don't get to vote. Taking that money from the 5th and 6th years for rookies means more for older players, the ones who would vote on this (though the effect wouldn't be felt until 4 or 5 seasons after the change).

[Ice009]

Yeah, seems hard to imagine. Not way NBPA accepts that and not good for the teams also actually. Being locked with a maxed guy for 4 or 5 years who may get depressed, lose motivation or whatever isn't what NBA teams would want to eventually constrain themselves into. Gotta always have a way out for both parts.

Yeah, that's terrible for a team and player to be locked in that long.

Does anyone know how NFL contracts work? I thought I read that they can have non-guaranteed ones, so you can cut a player if they're not performing, or for other reasons too I guess. Not sure how their contacts work

[mo7888]

Why is drafting "the right way" to build a? If you try to make drafting the only viable way to get stars, you're just encouraging tanking. I agree with Ex and Body that the new CBA will help small-market teams and spread talent around. But it doesn't skew toward building cores through the draft, and that's a very good thing.

In business, I don't think you can be rigid and say, "I'm only going to do it this way". You may have your focus on a particular way (in this case the draft), but you have to not only be open to other ways, you have to actively be seeking them. If you are so rigid that you won't deviate from your preferred path you'll never be able to reach your peak.

A simpler way of saying it is, you trade the picks if the player you want is there....

[exstatic]

The Spurs and GS, the two most successful teams of the 2000s, both drafted their core three or so players, and then used a variety of ways to fill out the roster. Obviously, you can't draft for every need and niche on your roster.

[Mr. Body]

Almost all championship-level teams draft their best players, other than Los Angeles and Miami that one time. There are rare exceptions like with Toronto and the Garnett/Ray Allen Celtics. Those flash in the pan teams don't stay together very long.

[CGD]

Who do we think has to kick an asset to the other team in this hypothetical trade?

SAS: Fournier
NYK: Bullock + Payne

[Mr. Body]

Who do we think has to kick an asset to the other team in this hypothetical trade?

SAS: Fournier
NYK: Bullock + Payne

Supposedly NYK already had interest in Payne. Fournier is completely out of their rotation so I would suppose some compensation comes the Spurs' way but I don't know. Maybe a second or two.

[exstatic]

Who do we think has to kick an asset to the other team in this hypothetical trade?

SAS: Fournier
NYK: Bullock + Payne

Fournier can be considered a salary dump, so NY would have to kick assets into the deal.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

I don't think the Knicks are going to kick in too much to get rid of an expiring contract, especially since they are still about $5 million away from being a taxpayer.

But they do need to move Fournier. He's unhappy and has asked out. I just can't see NY giving up much of anything unless it materially makes them better. And I can't see the Spurs giving up anything of value either, just to have another guy who speaks French on the team even though they could probably use his shooting. Other than there being a numbers crunch for roster spots, it's easier for the Spurs to move several smaller contracts than one big one.

[exstatic]

I don't think the Knicks are going to kick in too much to get rid of an expiring contract, especially since they are still about $5 million away from being a taxpayer.

But they do need to move Fournier. He's unhappy and has asked out. I just can't see NY giving up much of anything unless it materially makes them better. And I can't see the Spurs giving up anything of value either, just to have another guy who speaks French on the team even though they could probably use his shooting. Other than there being a numbers crunch for roster spots, it's easier for the Spurs to move several smaller contracts than one big one.

Supposedly, they like Payne? I'm not thrilled with Fournier without some sort of sweetener. He adds to our logjam at the 2/3 spots.

[TD 21]

Fournier can be considered a salary dump, so NY would have to kick assets into the deal.

The Spurs should target the Pistons '24 2nd, which the Knicks own.


Supposedly, they like Payne? I'm not thrilled with Fournier without some sort of sweetener. He adds to our logjam at the 2/3 spots.

More likely he'd be in competition for minutes with Graham. They could view it like between Sochan, Branham and him, they could have enough secondary ball handlers to get by. None can defend PG's, but it's not like they'd be a downgrade on Graham.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

Supposedly, they like Payne? I'm not thrilled with Fournier without some sort of sweetener. He adds to our logjam at the 2/3 spots.

That backcourt already looks plenty crowded to me with Brunson and Quickley at PG, RJ Barrett, Josh Hart, and they signed Dante DiVincenzo this offseason. Where would Payne even get minutes? Seems like they could use some more beef up front.

[Mr. Body]

That backcourt already looks plenty crowded to me with Brunson and Quickley at PG, RJ Barrett, Josh Hart, and they signed Dante DiVincenzo this offseason. Where would Payne even get minutes? Seems like they could use some more beef up front.

They were running three guard sets closer to the end of the year, which showed some success. I don't think they need Payne, though it does seem they were targeting him.

[Mr. Body]

Not that it applies to a Fournier trade, but the Knicks are one of the few semi-'contenders' who haven't blown their picks. I suppose they're waiting for a KAT to become available. They have all their firsts going forward and a good number of seconds.

This is kind of weird for 2024:

2024 - Own; DAL 11-30; DET 19-30 (via HOU to OKC); WAS 13-30 (via HOU to OKC)

It's highly doubtful they get all four firsts next draft, impossible even, but they will get two. The Detroit and Washington picks start dropping as they go on, but they may likely never see them. Detroit one is possible.

[sfernald]

Usually I am game for these kinds of trades. He's a good three point shooter so he fits with Wemby. But his contract at 18Mill might be too big to be really useful. I guess maybe for a big trade, but I like the under 10Mill contracts myself. Right idea, but just not a good fit I think, unless the Knicks were willing to throw in a first. Otherwise, tell em to f'off.

ps, that detroit first round pick is fools gold, it will never come in as a first.

[TD 21]

I suppose they're waiting for a KAT to become available. They have all their firsts going forward and a good number of seconds.

They're supposedly not interested in him and are instead waiting out Embiid.

[Mr. Body]

Usually I am game for these kinds of trades. He's a good three point shooter so he fits with Wemby. But his contract at 18Mill might be too big to be really useful. I guess maybe for a big trade, but I like the under 10Mill contracts myself. Right idea, but just not a good fit I think, unless the Knicks were willing to throw in a first. Otherwise, tell em to f'off.

ps, that detroit first round pick is fools gold, it will never come in as a first.

I would be surprised if Detroit can't make the playoffs in the next four years. They're making good moves and have a good coach. Might take a little luck though we'll see contenders crater in the next few years like Philadelphia.

Anyway, Fournier is as much a consolidation trade as anything. Lowry would be better, since he plays a position of need. I'd prefer to trade Payne/Bullock/Birch, etc., for a higher price expiring, hopefully with a bit of compensation, rather than having to cut them entirely. Fournier could be a bit of a headache if he is traded for and doesn't get playing time.

[exstatic]

Usually I am game for these kinds of trades. He's a good three point shooter so he fits with Wemby. But his contract at 18Mill might be too big to be really useful. I guess maybe for a big trade, but I like the under 10Mill contracts myself. Right idea, but just not a good fit I think, unless the Knicks were willing to throw in a first. Otherwise, tell em to f'off.

ps, that detroit first round pick is fools gold, it will never come in as a first.

The Detroit pick drops down to 1-9 protected in 2027. It’ll convey.

[Darkwaters]

Does anyone know how NFL contracts work? I thought I read that they can have non-guaranteed ones, so you can cut a player if they're not performing, or for other reasons too I guess. Not sure how their contacts work

NFL contracts are quite a bit different. Players get a big signing bonus up front as well as an annual salary. Additionally, they may have escalators that add extra bonuses based on performance.

The annual base salary may or may not be guaranteed. Usually on long deals the first couple of years are guaranteed and later years are not. This means that a player could be cut and the remaining non-guaranteed money is never paid or applied against the cap.

The signing bonus is where most of the manipulation and difficulties come. The signing bonus is paid to the player immediately but is amortized against the cap across the life of the contract. For instance, if a player signed a 5 year deal with a 50 million dollar signing bonus the team would pay the player 50 million dollars up front but then be responsible for 10 million dollars per year against the cap (plus the actual salary earned for that year). If after one year the team opted to then cut that player they could be obligated to amortize the entire remaining 40 million dollars in signing bonus in either one or two years (depending on when the player is cut). That's where the term "dead cap" comes from - signing bonus that still must be applied against the salary cap even though the player is no longer playing and may even have a non-guaranteed deal.

Zeke Elliott with the Dallas Cowboys is a great example. In 2019 he signed a six year, $90 million contract. The first three years were guaranteed while the latter three years were not. Dallas should have probably cut him a year or even two earlier based on declining performance. But they needed to give it time for the fully guaranteed years to play through and also for the signing bonus to amortize a little bit more.

One other note, if a team trades a player they are only trading the base salary elements and they are still responsible for amortizing the salary cap against the cap. That figure is not tradeable and the original team that authored the contract must apply it against their cap. Trading a player is the same as cutting him and the signing bonus is due against the cap in either one or two years depending on timing.

[sfernald]

The Detroit pick drops down to 1-9 protected in 2027. It’ll convey.

The team they are building is just such a mess though. Ivey isn't developing well, just pounds the ball and turns it over. And him next to Cade isn't a good fit. Cade is always injured. Wiseman is probably useless and also not a fit with Duren. They have a weird love for twin towers in an age when even one tower is a bit archaic. They are building a team to always lose it seems. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they are bottom 10 in 2027 honestly. Until I see them start to win a bit, I won't believe it.

[sfernald]

I would be surprised if Detroit can't make the playoffs in the next four years. They're making good moves and have a good coach. Might take a little luck though we'll see contenders crater in the next few years like Philadelphia.

Anyway, Fournier is as much a consolidation trade as anything. Lowry would be better, since he plays a position of need. I'd prefer to trade Payne/Bullock/Birch, etc., for a higher price expiring, hopefully with a bit of compensation, rather than having to cut them entirely. Fournier could be a bit of a headache if he is traded for and doesn't get playing time.

If it's just a trade consolidation and the alternative is to cut guys, then yeah that's probably fine. I would MUCH rather have them do this with any starting quality PG though. I mean, we just don't need any more SGs right now.

[CGD]

I don't think the Knicks are going to kick in too much to get rid of an expiring contract, especially since they are still about $5 million away from being a taxpayer.

But they do need to move Fournier. He's unhappy and has asked out. I just can't see NY giving up much of anything unless it materially makes them better. And I can't see the Spurs giving up anything of value either, just to have another guy who speaks French on the team even though they could probably use his shooting. Other than there being a numbers crunch for roster spots, it's easier for the Spurs to move several smaller contracts than one big one.

I agree with this. Was looking at this as a consolidation trade, not one for a guy that i thought would play meaningful minutes for the team. Good point about the many smaller contract v one larger one.

[Ocotillo]

I suppose they're waiting for a KAT to become available.

I don't know about them targeting Embid or not but I don't think Thibs and KAT were a great mix when Thibs was in Minny.

[TD 21]

The team they are building is just such a mess though. Ivey isn't developing well, just pounds the ball and turns it over. And him next to Cade isn't a good fit. Cade is always injured. Wiseman is probably useless and also not a fit with Duren. They have a weird love for twin towers in an age when even one tower is a bit archaic. They are building a team to always lose it seems. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they are bottom 10 in 2027 honestly. Until I see them start to win a bit, I won't believe it.

They're definitely too C heavy, but it's too soon to question Ivey's development and his fit next to Cunningham, which theoretically remains good.

The top 3 and 4 of the top 10 players in the league are "towers". Two big lineups are also making a comeback (teams starting 1.5-2 C's: Celtics, Cavaliers, Warriors, Grizzlies, Bucks, Timberwolves, Spurs; teams starting a true PF: Mavericks, Nuggets, Rockets, Pacers, Lakers, Knicks, Pelicans, Magic, Raptors, Jazz).

Considering they don't have a "unicorn" big, I'm thinking they run a rotation of: Bogdanovic, Thompson, Duren, Ivey, Cunningham, Stewart, Morris, Harris or Burks, Wiseman or Bagley III.

[JPB]

I would be surprised if Detroit can't make the playoffs in the next four years. They're making good moves and have a good coach. Might take a little luck though we'll see contenders crater in the next few years like Philadelphia.

Anyway, Fournier is as much a consolidation trade as anything. Lowry would be better, since he plays a position of need. I'd prefer to trade Payne/Bullock/Birch, etc., for a higher price expiring, hopefully with a bit of compensation, rather than having to cut them entirely. Fournier could be a bit of a headache if he is traded for and doesn't get playing time.

Seems to me Fournier is done. If he can't even show up for the french NT anymore (he was upposed to be the man in the last Euro but was a shadow on the floor, a 2018 Fournier an France win the chip'), I'm afraid he's also done as even a semi NBA contributor... I don't even know who would give him a new contract after next year (besides the minimum) and I can see him out of the NBA entirely before 2 years.

On a side note, his agent is (ofc) Bouna Ndiaye.

[R. DeMurre]

I think Donovan Mitchell could be someone to watch out for in 2025, if the Cavs don’t do much in the playoffs over the next year or two he may decide to move on or the Cavs may try to get some assets out of a trade.


Can you think of a single team starting a 6'2" SG that has won an NBA championship?

[exstatic]

Seems to me Fournier is done. If he can't even show up for the french NT anymore (he was upposed to be the man in the last Euro but was a shadow on the floor, a 2018 Fournier an France win the chip'), I'm afraid he's also done as even a semi NBA contributor... I don't even know who would give him a new contract after next year (besides the minimum) and I can see him out of the NBA entirely before 2 years.

On a side note, his agent is (ofc) Bouna Ndiaye.

It's pretty unusual for a player to be washed at 30. I wonder what happened.

[Leetonidas]

Can you think of a single team starting a 6'2" SG who has won an NBA championship?

Joe Dumars was like 6'2 wasn't he?

[JPB]

It's pretty unusual for a player to be washed at 30. I wonder what happened.

Hard to tell but these guys are human and also subject to depression, burn out or existentialist issues... At some point they may lose interest in putting a ball in a hole... Maybe Founrier lost his mojo (or his GF) but he looks like a scrub now... Don't know if he can get it back tbh.

A similar and even more fascinating case is Eden Hazard in Soccer. they guy went from Premier League MVP and top international star to totally unplayable (but still cashing in 25M/year in Real Madrid).

[sfernald]

It's pretty unusual for a player to be washed at 30. I wonder what happened.

I don’t think he’s done. He had a really bad year with the Knicks (disgruntled and demotivated for various reasons, tibs, etc) and needs to move on from them. But I don’t see any reason he couldn’t come back with the spurs, play 30 minutes and shoot 40% from three. He really is a very good player, at least offensively. Not much defense, but then what spur plays defense these days? I think they are hoping and praying that Wemby can cover for all these deadbeats. I’ve just been watching a bunch of video on him. Really looks like a spur to be honest. If he wants to be here, I’d give him a try. Assuming Knicks pockets open up a bit.

[R. DeMurre]

Joe Dumars was like 6'2 wasn't he?

He was 6'3", and Jordan once called him the best defender he'd ever faced. No one has ever said that about Donovan Mitchell, and it was 33 years ago that he won a title-- a very long time, which I think kinda proves the point that starting a 6'2" SG is almost always a good way to not win a championship.

[TD 21]

I don’t think he’s done. He had a really bad year with the Knicks (disgruntled and demotivated for various reasons, tibs, etc) and needs to move on from them. But I don’t see any reason he couldn’t come back with the spurs, play 30 minutes and shoot 40% from three. He really is a very good player, at least offensively. Not much defense, but then what spur plays defense these days? I think they are hoping and praying that Wemby can cover for all these deadbeats. I’ve just been watching a bunch of video on him. Really looks like a spur to be honest. If he wants to be here, I’d give him a try. Assuming Knicks pockets open up a bit.

30 mpg? Johnson and Vassell might be the only Spurs who crack that number, with Wembanyama hovering around it.

If they trade for Fournier, it won't be about him so much as it'll be somewhat alleviating the roster crunch and if McDermott is involved, clearing a path for Champagnie.