Call Your Ideal Off-Season

[scott]

While we are one-day fresh off the end of our season, I thought it might be fun to post your ideal off-season (that is within reason, not "Trade for Luka and Giannis), based on the information you have now. I imagine there will be some takes that will age quite poorly and be fun to look back on later.

I'll start (speaking of things that will likely age poorly).

Draft:

Toronto pick conveys at 7 or 8
Spurs select Risacher and Buzelis in the first, double dipping on wing prospects in the Lauri/MPJ archetype, with switchability between the 3 and 4.
With our natural SRP, we select Juan Nunez as a PG prospect (I'd also be very happy with Comeche guy). The Lakers SRP is traded or used on a draft-and-stash or someone who will take a two-way.


Current Roster:

Graham waived.
Bassey also released. I think it is well known that I am a huge Bassey stan and love the elite rebounding and rim protection numbers he puts up... but homie can't stay healthy and I'm afraid his knees might be done
Mamu not retained. Mamu is one of those perfect fan-favorite 15th man kind of guys, but


Free Agency

Sign Malik Monk, right now I'd say 3/65 might be a fair estimate, maybe 4/83 as the 4th year might be what gets something done. He would be signed explicitly in a high-end 6th man role (as in, perennial 6OTY contender kind of role)
Sign Gordon Hayward. This one is harder to pin down, but I think 2/20 might be sufficient. He was putting up good numbers this season before being traded to OKC but hasn't done much since. Coming off a $30MM/yr deal it's hard to pin down what his real market value is.


Trades

I would love if the Spurs put something together for a high end starting PG, but I don't think they will, and that's okay for now
The Spurs trade some SRPs for Malcom Brogdon
Keldon will need to be moved, either this offseason or during the season. For now I'm going to assume he stays in the off-season but is moved at/by the deadline
Blake Wesley shipped off for some protected future SRP to get him a chance to make it somewhere else. If not, cut as a simple casualty of a 15-man roster


Opening Day Roster

PG: Brogdon/Tre/Nunez
SG: Vassell/Monk/Branham
SF: Risacher/Hayward/Johnson/Champagnie
PF: Sochan/Buzelis
C: Wembanyama/Collins/Barlow

Why I like this:

Major upgrade to the guard rotation, especially in solidifying the bench guard/wing scorer roles currently occupied by Johnson and Branham
Stopgap starting PG upgrade. Maybe Nunez is a developmental gem, otherwise you're still in a position to find the long-term piece later
All draft assets preserved for a potential big move down the line (though that clock is ticking as those picks begin to convey)
Still emphasizes organic/internal growth. Monk is a huge addition in terms of on the court impact but is still relatively minor as far a "big FA splashes" go. This is still a very "Spurs Way" kind of approach. Vassell and Sochan are still major parts of the core, and you have two new draft picks put in a good position to contribute and grow as well.
Flexibility if Risacher or Buzelis hit a wall or need some time on the bench/G-league to refine things. Especially early in the season before you trade Keldon, but even then Champagnie at least provides someone with starting experience who can fill in (I'm assuming Risacher can slide down to the 4 if Buzelis is the one who struggles).


What I don't like:

PG is still below league average, though considerably better than this year. Still just a stopgap, but we can't solve all our problems at once
PF depth. You basically will have Sochan, Buzelis, and Risacher - all young guys who will go through slumps (hopefully not all at the same time). You might be able to slide Hayward down to the 4 from time to time the way the Spurs played Cedi at the 4, but in that case you get forced into needing to keep Keldon on the team (which long term cuts into the PT and development of your two top-10 picks)
Still heavily relies on Zach Collins. Hopefully dude puts this season behind him and returns to the form that earned him that extension... but who knows.
Maybe some confusion around your closing lineup. Can Monk be the PG in your closing lineup?

[LeBowen]

Draft:
Regardless of Toronto's pick conveying, I want wings. I don't want point guards from this draft.
A bunch of prospects that can't shoot or defend. In some cases neither. Two years away from being two years away.

Current Roster:
Collins has to go, he's atrocious.
I'd also get rid of Keldon, I hate low IQ, no defense players.
Devin and Jeremy should stay unless there are big trades to be made.
Others are irrelevant, insignificant contracts and barely NBA level players.
Mamu and Tre should stay, that's about it. Champagnie will also stay.

Free Agency:
With Grayson Allen gone, there's noone I'd really take.
Maybe give Tobias a two year overpay if there's cap space left and no other targets to be had.
Something like 50/2, he's not worth more.
Not sure about Monk, depends on the PG situation.
If we're talking veterans, I guess Batum could be an option because of Wemby. He announced he'll retire after the season, but maybe he'd change his mind for Wemby.
Get a solid backup big if Bassey and Barlow are gone.

Trades:
We simply must get a competent point guard and one good 3-D wing.
The market is pretty dry, I don't want Brogdon, he's always injured and noone likes him.
Maybe we can hope Boston crashes out and decides to retool. Derrick would be available then, would be perfect.
Garland won't be available because Mitchell will most likely leave.
I'd take Trae for a fair price.
Naz Reid is my favorite wing target.
Would also look at NOLA and Brooklyn wing situation and maybe Okoro.

Something like:
Derrick-Devin-Jeremy-Reid-Wemby
Tre, Branham, rookie wing (x2?), Champagnie, Mamu, perimeter veteran, veteran big
Cissoko and this year second rounders to complete the roster.

[baseline bum]

Impossible until we see the draft lottery results next month.

[spurraider21]

Mugen already got his wish

1779570712203731276

[CorrectCrusader]

​​Additions



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â€â€‹Subtractions
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[baseline bum]

But if we can dream on good lottery results:

1. Trade our pick, the Toronto pick, the Dallas swap, Keldon, and Graham for Mikal Bridges
2. Trade Atlanta back their 2025 and 2027 picks, rip up the 2026 swap, plus the Chicago pick and Zollins and Bassey for Trae Young
3. Retain Champagnie, Mamu, Barlow on cheap deals

Ten man rotation could be:

PG: Young/Jones
SG: Vassell/Branham
SF: Bridges/Champagnie
PF: Sochan/Mamu
C: Wemby/Barlow

Then 2025 focus on getting some bigman depth with the MLE.

[jeebus]

I foresee a lot of disappointment in here when the Spurs keep their picks and add a couple of older cheaper vets, while dumping off a few randos.

[DPG21920]

Draft:
Toronto pick conveys at 7 or 8
Spurs select 2 of Castle, Cody Williams or Buzelis in the first? I dont have too strong of leanings in this draft so trusting the Spurs FO here. Reed and Dillingham intrigue and scare me some. Just do not take a center with lottery picks.


Current Roster:
Graham waived.
Keep Mamu. He’s a great locker room guy and provides a different look at back up 4 alongside fitting well with Wemby. For his price, cannot be understated how nice that is.
Keep Champganie on his deal.



Free Agency
Dont spend big money unless it’s someone that fits the timeline and has great upside. Cap signings to 2 years even if you have to overpay APY some. Take a look at Claxton perhaps. Fontecchio?

OG would be a big money guy Im possibly OK with if he is going to leave NY (seems doubtful though). Monk im fine with but not on huge money. If hes over 15M I say no. Take a peak at Tyus Jones or Quickley but dont spend too much.


Trades

The Spurs trade some SRPs for Malcom Brogdon (definitely think this a great path)
Trade Keldon and CHI pick back that they owe us for Patrick Willams
Look for any opportunity to offload Collins for cap relief. He’s overpaid at C position with Wemby being full time and Spurs can definitely use 15M much better than him. We have a ton of 2nd rounders so use them to offload Zach if you need to. But hopefully he can have a strong start to next season and be moved.


At the end of the day, big picture I would like to see 5+ guys on the roster turned over. 2 via incoming draft picks (Spurs and hopefully TOR), 2 via free agency and maybe 1-2 via trade.

Everyone but Wemby, Vassell, Sochan is on the block. But would want to see Cedi, Graham, Collins, and Blake prioritized to be replaced, with Branham and Bassey on the block as well depending on draft/fa. But I want 5 new faces on team next season at a minimum.

[Dejounte]

Tre/ Wesley/ Graham
Vassell/ Branham
Champagnie/ Keldon/ Sidy
Sochan/ Cedi/ Mamu
Wemby/ Collins/ Barlow/ Bassey

^the roster after my perfect offseason tbh

[Mugen]

Mugen (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=15519) already got his wish

1779570712203731276

https://i.imgur.com/LT753Dqg.jpg

[DPG21920]

Thankfully Collins ended the year on a higher note. Hope that translates to a strong off season and ups his trade value.

[cjw]

Given the roster crunch in the immediate and medium term with all of the draft picks on horizon, and that nobody beyond Wemby/Vassell (+ I’d add Sochan to that duo too as a keeper) provide above league average production or upside, the Spurs shouldn’t hesitate to move on from anyone else. Any trade that gives upside for Keldon while taking on his contract, you run to the phone to call into the league office. Anyone willing to take on Collins without a FRP attached, you do the same. Tre is a nice role player, but need to significantly upgrade the PG spot to maximize the key cogs on team.

You do whatever you can to add top 100 guys in the league. If even the guys available at the Spurs’ pick or Toronto pick if it conveys don’t project as that within a few years, you use those picks in a trade.

With a transcendent player like Wemby, you don’t have space for 15 man developmental rosters anymore. You’re going to have vets banging down the door to play with him and backfill 8th through 12th man duties.

[KobesAchilles]

It doesn’t matter. The Spurs have zero interest in winning next year. More “stealth” tanking to come

[Mugen]

Thankfully Collins ended the year on a higher note. Hope that translates to a strong off season and ups his trade value.

I doubt any NBA GM is over-indexing his performance during a bunch of meaningless games tbh.

[mo7888]

While we are one-day fresh off the end of our season, I thought it might be fun to post your ideal off-season (that is within reason, not "Trade for Luka and Giannis), based on the information you have now. I imagine there will be some takes that will age quite poorly and be fun to look back on later.

I'll start (speaking of things that will likely age poorly).

Draft:

Toronto pick conveys at 7 or 8
Spurs select Risacher and Buzelis in the first, double dipping on wing prospects in the Lauri/MPJ archetype, with switchability between the 3 and 4.
With our natural SRP, we select Juan Nunez as a PG prospect (I'd also be very happy with Comeche guy). The Lakers SRP is traded or used on a draft-and-stash or someone who will take a two-way.


Current Roster:

Graham waived.
Bassey also released. I think it is well known that I am a huge Bassey stan and love the elite rebounding and rim protection numbers he puts up... but homie can't stay healthy and I'm afraid his knees might be done
Mamu not retained. Mamu is one of those perfect fan-favorite 15th man kind of guys, but


Free Agency

Sign Malik Monk, right now I'd say 3/65 might be a fair estimate, maybe 4/83 as the 4th year might be what gets something done. He would be signed explicitly in a high-end 6th man role (as in, perennial 6OTY contender kind of role)
Sign Gordon Hayward. This one is harder to pin down, but I think 2/20 might be sufficient. He was putting up good numbers this season before being traded to OKC but hasn't done much since. Coming off a $30MM/yr deal it's hard to pin down what his real market value is.


Trades

I would love if the Spurs put something together for a high end starting PG, but I don't think they will, and that's okay for now
The Spurs trade some SRPs for Malcom Brogdon
Keldon will need to be moved, either this offseason or during the season. For now I'm going to assume he stays in the off-season but is moved at/by the deadline
Blake Wesley shipped off for some protected future SRP to get him a chance to make it somewhere else. If not, cut as a simple casualty of a 15-man roster


Opening Day Roster

PG: Brogdon/Tre/Nunez
SG: Vassell/Monk/Branham
SF: Risacher/Hayward/Johnson/Champagnie
PF: Sochan/Buzelis
C: Wembanyama/Collins/Barlow

Why I like this:

Major upgrade to the guard rotation, especially in solidifying the bench guard/wing scorer roles currently occupied by Johnson and Branham
Stopgap starting PG upgrade. Maybe Nunez is a developmental gem, otherwise you're still in a position to find the long-term piece later
All draft assets preserved for a potential big move down the line (though that clock is ticking as those picks begin to convey)
Still emphasizes organic/internal growth. Monk is a huge addition in terms of on the court impact but is still relatively minor as far a "big FA splashes" go. This is still a very "Spurs Way" kind of approach. Vassell and Sochan are still major parts of the core, and you have two new draft picks put in a good position to contribute and grow as well.
Flexibility if Risacher or Buzelis hit a wall or need some time on the bench/G-league to refine things. Especially early in the season before you trade Keldon, but even then Champagnie at least provides someone with starting experience who can fill in (I'm assuming Risacher can slide down to the 4 if Buzelis is the one who struggles).


What I don't like:

PG is still below league average, though considerably better than this year. Still just a stopgap, but we can't solve all our problems at once
PF depth. You basically will have Sochan, Buzelis, and Risacher - all young guys who will go through slumps (hopefully not all at the same time). You might be able to slide Hayward down to the 4 from time to time the way the Spurs played Cedi at the 4, but in that case you get forced into needing to keep Keldon on the team (which long term cuts into the PT and development of your two top-10 picks)
Still heavily relies on Zach Collins. Hopefully dude puts this season behind him and returns to the form that earned him that extension... but who knows.
Maybe some confusion around your closing lineup. Can Monk be the PG in your closing lineup?


I like most of that. A few changes for me personally..

Draft- I only take Nunez if it's a stash. I'd rather keep Wesley next year.

Roster- I probably keep Mamu unless I just need the space because of FA/trades.

FA- I like Monk here, but I might see if I can get Okoro before I offer Monk. Caleb Martin would be on my radar here too in that 'Hayward' category. I'd be happy with either.

Trades- I like the Brogdon play here. I'd also like to see us acquire Deni Avdija (hopefully in a 3 team deal that moves Zach or KJ).

[DPG21920]

I doubt any NBA GM is over-indexing his performance during a bunch of meaningless games tbh.

Maybe. Either way it cant hurt that he ended strong.

[scott]

Draft:
Toronto pick conveys at 7 or 8
Spurs select 2 of Castle, Cody Williams or Buzelis in the first? I dont have too strong of leanings in this draft so trusting the Spurs FO here. Reed and Dillingham intrigue and scare me some. Just do not take a center with lottery picks.


Current Roster:
Graham waived.
Keep Mamu. He’s a great locker room guy and provides a different look at back up 4 alongside fitting well with Wemby. For his price, cannot be understated how nice that is.
Keep Champganie on his deal.



Free Agency
Dont spend big money unless it’s someone that fits the timeline and has great upside. Cap signings to 2 years even if you have to overpay APY some. Take a look at Claxton perhaps. Fontecchio?

OG would be a big money guy Im possibly OK with if he is going to leave NY (seems doubtful though). Monk im fine with but not on huge money. If hes over 15M I say no. Take a peak at Tyus Jones or Quickley but dont spend too much.


Trades

The Spurs trade some SRPs for Malcom Brogdon (definitely think this a great path)
Trade Keldon and CHI pick back that they owe us for Patrick Willams
Look for any opportunity to offload Collins for cap relief. He’s overpaid at C position with Wemby being full time and Spurs can definitely use 15M much better than him. We have a ton of 2nd rounders so use them to offload Zach if you need to. But hopefully he can have a strong start to next season and be moved.


At the end of the day, big picture I would like to see 5+ guys on the roster turned over. 2 via incoming draft picks (Spurs and hopefully TOR), 2 via free agency and maybe 1-2 via trade.

Everyone but Wemby, Vassell, Sochan is on the block. But would want to see Cedi, Graham, Collins, and Blake prioritized to be replaced, with Branham and Bassey on the block as well depending on draft/fa. But I want 5 new faces on team next season at a minimum.

I don't think you've adapted to the new NBA economics yet. Monk isn't going to be gettable for $15MM/year, just like Grayson Allen wasn't going to be gettable for the 3/$40 you threw out in another thread. I get the sense that $15MM AAV is your mental cut of big money, but that's barely above the MLE next year ($12.9MM). You aren't going to get very far if $15MM/year is your individual cap, unless you just want to fill the roster with some MLE-type players.

[DPG21920]

I don't think you've adapted to the new NBA economics yet. Monk isn't going to be gettable for $15MM/year, just like Grayson Allen wasn't going to be gettable for the 3/$40 you threw out in another thread. I get the sense that $15MM AAV is your mental cut of big money, but that's barely above the MLE next year ($12.9MM). You aren't going to get very far if $15MM/year is your individual cap, unless you just want to fill the roster with some MLE-type players.

My friend - I understand it fully. Im talking about what the Spurs should be willing to pay. Not the market as in if they cannot get him for their price they need to move on. I also understand fully that means they likely dont get them and Im ok with that.

I even explained this in the Grayson Allen example where I said his market was likely 4/70 which was pretty close.

[scott]

So the Spurs should only be willing to vastly underpay players like Allen and Monk? Sounds like a real recipe for success.

[DPG21920]

So the Spurs should only be willing to vastly underpay players like Allen and Monk? Sounds like a real recipe for success.

Correct. Success is measured differently. The gist here is they should be looking for ways to improve but for the same reasons you shouldn’t be going all in for Trae Young and trading bunch of picks, you shouldn’t be paying market value for good role players that just eat up usage (Monk more than Allen in that case) when you still need Dev/Wemby/Sochan to soak that all up.

Is it the end of the world to pay Monk 20M? Nah - hopefully you can trade that deal if you need to and if its just a one year or two year deal Im ok with it; but seems obvious to me at least that Spurs should have a cap on paying big money (especially longer than 2 years) on guys who are just high end role players and have no shot at really truly growing or leaping the team (like Dillon Brooks deal for HOU).

Just doesn’t seem like a smart idea and I’d rather just hunt for value. Good news is the market will take care of this for me and likely prevent Spurs from overpaying those types so Im not worried.

But if how like Oubre fell through the cracks after so many thinking he would land a much bigger deal, that’s more the point Im making here..

[DPG21920]

Spurs are going to have Dev, Sochan and Wemby and maybe 3-5 lottery talents on the roster between this draft and next. Thats up to 8 guys who should all have upside and need roles expanded etc….so paying 20M for a guy like Monk to block them, even if that’s fair value, doesnt seem prudent to me but I would love for SA to add someone like that if the deal is really good because then it becomes not only a great value but a real trade asset as well amongst other things and you dont feel the need to cater to said player either

But I have no issue replacing Keldon with Monk for example money wise; but these are all the factors I think about alongside age, upside and opportunity costs.

[bluebellmaniac]

​
So the Spurs should only be willing to vastly underpay players like Allen and Monk? Sounds like a real recipe for success.

It is supposed to be IDEAL.

[Mr. Body]

Draft:
I don't want to draft for position, that doesn't seem wise. Williams and Risacher are more than underwhelming. It doesn't make sense to burn a pick on someone who you'll just complain about a year from now, and we all know you'll all just be bitching about them as much as you do the players we have. Why do I know this? Because all most anyone here does is bitch.

Anyway, I think the guards have more projectable skillsets and I want someone who has some elite core skills already, which CW and ZR don't have. I wouldn't be surprised to see Reed Sheppard. The most we can get out of this draft is a piece or two.

Trades:
I don't see any trades on the horizon at all. At most a minor one.

Free Agents:
I doubt there will be any free agents signed. A while back I thought a veteran or two would do wonders, but I think the team will stay the course. There's not even any roster spaces anyway.

Roster:
The core as I see it - for the next couple years - is Wembs, Sochan, Vassell, Keldon, Branham, Collins, in starkly descending order after Vassell. Keldon means more to the team than what he could get in exchange. No idea why you'd want to trade him. Branham has more of a ceiling than that the asylum inmates here think. Collins is a player that we cannot replace right now. I don't want to waste a pick getting Clingan or Filipowski when Collins is perfectly fine. No, he's not as bad as you say, you dopes.

The rest are players who will determine their future in the next year. Champ is a must-keep because there are no other options. If we do get a starting SF, he can be great off the bench. No, Williams or Risacher are not going to be starting next year. Wesley, unfortunately, I think has a short window, but there's no reason to move on from him yet. Mamu should be kept if possible. Barlow and Bassey are question marks, but it's hard to move on them given a need for bigs.

Verdict:
I don't see a lot of changes other than clearing spots for a couple of rookies. They might wait until trade deadline, but this team is going to grow slowly, as they've said multiple times. I think they'll take hard consideration at getting a veteran point, like even Chris Paul, but Tre has been great. He's perfectly fine for a while going forward. People who are frantic to get a starting point and willing to give up a treasure trove are mistaken. If you want Trae Young, the vastly better option is ensuring you get Dillingham. Far cheaper, more coachable, so if he doesn't work you didn't just cut your dick off.

Key needs: a first-level perimeter option, perimeter defense, a good bulky defensive big, perimeter shooting. You can maybe solve one of the first two issues in this draft. The rest will have to be found shrewdly or found later.

[DPG21920]

​

It is supposed to be IDEAL.

Yup. My thoughts were in what’s good for the Spurs and what I hope/think they should do. It doesnt mean anything else is awful, but just like HOU paying Brooks 4/80 and Spurs fans ripping HOU for that? I dont think those types of deals right now are ideal even if they can be still ok.

[scott]

​

It is supposed to be IDEAL.

Sure, but there is a difference between "ideal" and "realistic". Sure, it would be IDEAL if Paul George came here for a vet min deal, but it's not realistic, so it's not worth thinking about. If you're only willing to pay a player a fraction of his market value, then you really just don't want that player - in which case just say so.

[DPG21920]

Draft:
I don't want to draft for position, that doesn't seem wise. Williams and Risacher are more than underwhelming. It doesn't make sense to burn a pick on someone who you'll just complain about a year from now, and we all know you'll all just be bitching about them as much as you do the players we have. Why do I know this? Because all most anyone here does is bitch.

Anyway, I think the guards have more projectable skillsets and I want someone who has some elite core skills already, which CW and ZR don't have. I wouldn't be surprised to see Reed Sheppard. The most we can get out of this draft is a piece or two.

Trades:
I don't see any trades on the horizon at all. At most a minor one.

Free Agents:
I doubt there will be any free agents signed. A while back I thought a veteran or two would do wonders, but I think the team will stay the course. There's not even any roster spaces anyway.

Roster:
The core as I see it - for the next couple years - is Wembs, Sochan, Vassell, Keldon, Branham, Collins, in starkly descending order after Vassell. Keldon means more to the team than what he could get in exchange. No idea why you'd want to trade him. Branham has more of a ceiling than that the asylum inmates here think. Collins is a player that we cannot replace right now. I don't want to waste a pick getting Clingan or Filipowski when Collins is perfectly fine. No, he's not as bad as you say, you dopes.

The rest are players who will determine their future in the next year. Champ is a must-keep because there are no other options. If we do get a starting SF, he can be great off the bench. No, Williams or Risacher are not going to be starting next year. Wesley, unfortunately, I think has a short window, but there's no reason to move on from him yet. Mamu should be kept if possible. Barlow and Bassey are question marks, but it's hard to move on them given a need for bigs.

Verdict:
I don't see a lot of changes other than clearing spots for a couple of rookies. They might wait until trade deadline, but this team is going to grow slowly, as they've said multiple times. I think they'll take hard consideration at getting a veteran point, like even Chris Paul, but Tre has been great. He's perfectly fine for a while going forward. People who are frantic to get a starting point and willing to give up a treasure trove are mistaken. If you want Trae Young, the vastly better option is ensuring you get Dillingham. Far cheaper, more coachable, so if he doesn't work you didn't just cut your dick off.

Key needs: a first-level perimeter option, perimeter defense, a good bulky defensive big, perimeter shooting. You can maybe solve one of the first two issues in this draft. The rest will have to be found shrewdly or found later.

Theres tons of roster space tbh…at a minimum Cedi/Graham are gone. But guys like Blake, Barlow, Branham, Bassey etc…are all more than easily replaced to open up spots and should not have any sort of guarantee of a roster spot unless they absolutely earn it over others.

[scott]

I'll put Mr. Body in the camp of "Run it back, this roster is good enough, just needs time to develop"

[DPG21920]

I'll put Mr. Body in the camp of "Run it back, this roster is good enough, just needs time to develop"

Ya - Im not in that camp :lol. I said I wanted 5 guys replaced. Im just cautioning spending too big too fast unless you are damn sure it’s a player you see fitting long term with this team. But I also know that means we likely miss out on guys like Monk too and Im ok with that.

But guys like Keldon/Collins who make 16-19M? Im ok swapping those guys out for players like Monk who make similar money if you can. I would love to swap Keldon for Patrick Williams (something like that archetype) though.

[scott]

Ya - Im not in that camp :lol. I said I wanted 5 guys replaced. Im just cautioning spending too big too fast unless you are damn sure it’s a player you see fitting long term with this team. But I also know that means we likely miss out on guys like Monk too and Im ok with that.

But guys like Keldon/Collins who make 16-19M? Im ok swapping those guys out for players like Monk who make similar money if you can. I would love to swap Keldon for Patrick Williams (something like that archetype) though.

Yeah, I didn't put you in that camp. If I had to basically build different buckets for folks to fall in, I think I'd draw them up this way:

Group A: This roster needs a major overhaul ASAP. Everyone but Wemby must go NOW. (Plenty of people on this board fall in here)
Group B: This roster needs a major overhaul, but not quite as drastic and with some semblance of long-term vision in mind. Within 2 seasons the core 10-man rotation should look pretty different. (I'd put myself here)
Group C: We should look to improve the roster via the draft and frugal moves. Don't spend too much to maintain flexibility for a potential big move TBD at some point in the future should it present itself. (I'd put you here, DPG)
Group D: Run it back, this roster is good enough, just needs time to develop. (Where Mr. Body appears to be)

We could undoubtedly come up with a lot of shades of gray between these, but these are the main buckets IMO. I'd curious and what bucket posters fall into... but mostly I am hoping to see some roster constructions that people would want to pursue this offseason based on what we know now.

[DPG21920]

Yup - out of those I would definitely say I fall in group C, but I will move to group B after this off season.

[MannyIsGod]

I haven't looked at free agents enough to know who I really want, but offseason priority #1 is for Wemby not to get hurt during the Olympics.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't think you've adapted to the new NBA economics yet. Monk isn't going to be gettable for $15MM/year, just like Grayson Allen wasn't going to be gettable for the 3/$40 you threw out in another thread. I get the sense that $15MM AAV is your mental cut of big money, but that's barely above the MLE next year ($12.9MM). You aren't going to get very far if $15MM/year is your individual cap, unless you just want to fill the roster with some MLE-type players.

I'm not so sure this is right. I think there will be bargains out there as stars scoop up even bigger portions of the cap and not many teams have cap room. Maybe you are right, but I can also see scenarios where there just isn't a ton of open money available for free agents. The NBA not allowing all of the money from a new TV deal to hit all at once will probably help with this.

[MannyIsGod]

If Collins is perfectly fine, why would we have to use a pick to move him? Picks are only needed to sweeten the deal to take bad money on, but if Collins is, "perfectly fine" then it doesn't make sense that we would need to send a pick off in a trade with him but rather that we could get value back for him instead, no?

[poopbox]

Draft Sarr.

Trade for Tre only giving the Hawks their picks back and Keldon.
If not Trae, trade for Garland giving the Cavs one future first and Keldon.
Mamu replaces Sochan as the starting 4.

[CGD]

Group D: Run it back, this roster is good enough, just needs time to develop. (Where Mr. Body appears to be)

.

This option probably needs to be nuanced. There will be up to 5-6 guys who could just roll off as a result of their contracts this summer, and I don’t think people in this camp would necessarily advocate for the spurs to reup them. Add to that decisions on Year 4 options for Blake and Malaki (though latter is unlikely) and Tre’s free agency, and this roster could naturally different by the end of 2025.

At the same time the core of VW-Dev-Jermey could still be developed, with ideally this year’s pick.

[MannyIsGod]

Out of the current roster, in an ideal summer, I would only want the following back:

Wemby
Sochan
Vassel
Keldon
Tre Jones
Cedi
Branham
Wesley
Mamu

Even though Branham is back in this scenario, I do NOT want the Spurs to pick up his option. I don't want the Spurs to pick up Blake's option either and I would not want either to be rotation players unless they do something dramatic over the summer. Both of them would then have their 3rd year to show they are NBA players but they shouldn't be given minutes.

Cedi is definitely a rotation level player and I would like him as a bench piece who can occasionally fill in as a starter. Not sure what salary he'll command, but I think he's a worthwhile player to have at the end of a rotation.

Champagne
Barlow
Bassey
Sidy

They've had plenty of chances but on a bad team they never showed enough IMO. Being a fringe player on a 20 win team means that you're not an NBA level rotation player for a winning team. Sidy is a bit different I suppose, but I just dont' think there's enough to keep him around and I'd rather use the roster spot on someone else.

Assuming we draft 2-3 rookies, I just want the players in Free agency who are capable of starting on an NBA team. I want a starting point guard. I think Tre is a serviceable backup and he tries so damn hard, but he is not a point guard that starts on a good NBA team and I don't think we'll see him take another step. He is what he is.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, I didn't put you in that camp. If I had to basically build different buckets for folks to fall in, I think I'd draw them up this way:

Group A: This roster needs a major overhaul ASAP. Everyone but Wemby must go NOW. (Plenty of people on this board fall in here)
Group B: This roster needs a major overhaul, but not quite as drastic and with some semblance of long-term vision in mind. Within 2 seasons the core 10-man rotation should look pretty different. (I'd put myself here)
Group C: We should look to improve the roster via the draft and frugal moves. Don't spend too much to maintain flexibility for a potential big move TBD at some point in the future should it present itself. (I'd put you here, DPG)
Group D: Run it back, this roster is good enough, just needs time to develop. (Where Mr. Body appears to be)

We could undoubtedly come up with a lot of shades of gray between these, but these are the main buckets IMO. I'd curious and what bucket posters fall into... but mostly I am hoping to see some roster constructions that people would want to pursue this offseason based on what we know now.

I would guess I'm a mix of B/C. I don't want to make bad deals that limit our flexibility moving forward, but I also don't want to be frugal. The Spurs need to use their damn cap space and at some point they're going to have to cash in the draft equity they built via trade because I don't think it makes sense for them to play it out via the draft. Not with the current roster make up anyway.

[MannyIsGod]

This option probably needs to be nuanced. There will be up to 5-6 guys who could just roll off as a result of their contracts this summer, and I don’t think people in this camp would necessarily advocate for the spurs to reup them. Add to that decisions on Year 4 options for Blake and Malaki (though latter is unlikely) and Tre’s free agency, and this roster could naturally different by the end of 2025.

At the same time the core of VW-Dev-Jermey could still be developed, with ideally this year’s pick.

How is that not just Group C?

[CGD]

How is that not just Group C?

It’s kinda my point. Not sure there is a Group D per se.

[scott]

It’s kinda my point. Not sure there is a Group D per se.

How I read Mr. Body's post sounds firmly Group D to me.

[scott]

Out of the current roster, in an ideal summer, I would only want the following back:

Wemby
Sochan
Vassel
Keldon
Tre Jones
Cedi
Branham
Wesley
Mamu

Even though Branham is back in this scenario, I do NOT want the Spurs to pick up his option. I don't want the Spurs to pick up Blake's option either and I would not want either to be rotation players unless they do something dramatic over the summer. Both of them would then have their 3rd year to show they are NBA players but they shouldn't be given minutes.

Cedi is definitely a rotation level player and I would like him as a bench piece who can occasionally fill in as a starter. Not sure what salary he'll command, but I think he's a worthwhile player to have at the end of a rotation.

Champagne
Barlow
Bassey
Sidy

They've had plenty of chances but on a bad team they never showed enough IMO. Being a fringe player on a 20 win team means that you're not an NBA level rotation player for a winning team. Sidy is a bit different I suppose, but I just dont' think there's enough to keep him around and I'd rather use the roster spot on someone else.

Assuming we draft 2-3 rookies, I just want the players in Free agency who are capable of starting on an NBA team. I want a starting point guard. I think Tre is a serviceable backup and he tries so damn hard, but he is not a point guard that starts on a good NBA team and I don't think we'll see him take another step. He is what he is.

This could easily be Group B, C, or D - depending on how you replace those four guys you are moving on from. If you are replacing them with (for example) a starting SF, a starting PG, your backup SG, and a rotational big while Bran/Wesley/Mamu/Cedi get pushed to third stringers... then it's Group B (this is more aligned what I assume you want, based on your other post on the topic). If you just replace them with different end of bench guys... then it's Group D, IMO.

[MannyIsGod]

This could easily be Group B, C, or D - depending on how you replace those four guys you are moving on from. If you are replacing them with (for example) a starting SF, a starting, your backup SG, and a rotational big while Bran/Wesley/Mamu/Cedi get pushed to third stringers... then it's Group B (this is more aligned what I assume you want, based on your other post on the topic). If you just replace them with different end of bench guys... then it's Group D, IMO.

We desperately need starters IMO. We need capable NBA level starters at 3 positions and the only one where I could potentially see a current player becoming an NBA level starter is at the 4 with Sochan.

[scott]

We desperately need starters IMO. We need capable NBA level starters at 3 positions and the only one where I could potentially see a current player becoming an NBA level starter is at the 4 with Sochan.

I agree. I think our biggest needs, in order, are:

1. Starting SF
2. Starting PG
3. Backup SG

I'm okay with Sochan continuing as the starting 4 because he at least continues to show the potential to be a capable starter, assuming the proper archetype is placed next to him as the starting 3 (Julian is a compatible archetype, just not good enough).

Even upgrading those 3 spots to a bare minimum of Gordon Hayward, Malcom Brogdon and Gary Trent Jr. would have a huge impact on this team. I think it you did nothing else but make those 3 moves and bring back the same team otherwise and you'd have a team capable of play-in contention, and that is before factoring what you hope is one or two Top-10 picks who make some kind of positive contribution their rookie seasons.

[itzsoweezee]

At a minimum, they need to grab a cheap, quality veteran point guard like Brogdon or Schroeder. Perhaps also select a backup big with one of the second round picks. Probably a stretch, but they should try to find a team desperate enough to trade for the first round pick.

[skin27]

Draft topic or dillingham and one wing(if we get toronto pick), trade keldon.

[Leetonidas]

If there is a move out there to accelerate the timeline that doesn't break the bank and it makes sense, do it. Otherwise adding some vets, (hopefully) two top 10 rookies, and playing out next season isnt the worst idea. I'm on the trade for Trae Young bandwagon but it has to be the right price.

[MultiTroll]

New coach
Players who realize Wemby is better then them and are not jealous. Able to throw simple pass to wide open Wama.
Spurs Dance Team brought back.

Wama completes his stint in the silly greedy World Commercialism Games healthy.

[SpursBills]

Trades:
Toronto pick, Chicago pick, Zach Collins for Deni Avdija + Wiz 2nd rounder
Wizards basically get 2 potential lottery picks for a 23 year old combo forward who can shoot some, pass well, defend well, and is continuing to improve year after year on what is essentially an MLE contract for 4 years. Also we get to offload Collins' contract; I hate selling low on Collins, but I don't see him playing well next to Wemby and the things that he does well aren't the things I want from my backup center

Draft:
Reed Sheppard (1st round) - higher on him than many; gives you elite off-ball shooting and untapped on-ball potential; should synergize well with Vassell, Wemby, and Deni's creation
Package Spurs, Wiz 2nd rounder to move up to early 20s, draft Devin Carter - immediate defensive stopper at the guard spot, improving dramatically year after year, college shot profile was basically high volume 3s and rim attempts as which is exactly what you want in the modern NBA and for this team

FA:
Goga Bitadze - 3 years, 20 million
Magic have too many centers with Wagner and Carter and are also playing Isaac; Bitadze gives you elite defense and a bruiser at backup center prices

Depth Chart:
Sheppard/Vassell/Avdija/Sochan/Wemby
Tre Jones/Carter/Champagnie/Keldon/Goga
Malaki gets spot minutes and continues developing in G-league

With some development, this probably allows you to contend for a play in spot. Among your starters, you have 2 great shooters, Deni continues to increase his volume of shooting (shot 0.374 last year so hopefully continuing to improve his shot). 2 good perimeter wing defenders to hide Sheppard. Among your backups, everyone except Goga is probably at least an average shooter (Jones dramatically improved the second half of the year) and you've got multiple good defenders in Goga, Carter, and even Champagnie to hide Keldon who can go bull rush the rim and slack on defense as much as he wants.

You've given up none of our own picks and none of ATL's picks, you've consolidated some of your picks for actual players, and you've got a decent defensive unit that has shooting potential.

[Knoxxx]

Big picture Wemby likes Pop and his teammates. So if you don’t like Pop, get real and get on board. There will be some strategic cuts, trades, a huge signing is not likely but if something nice falls into our laps of course you capitalize. The notion that we might get lucky in free agency is not crazy, we have the best young prospect perhaps ever which is a draw and no state income tax. Guys we want should be smart enough to not consider only $ in their decisions.

Good on Scott and others though for thinking on it much more deeply than I, chicken soup for the soul in what was often a very trying season.

One other reminder, continuity is also valuable that was part of our recipe for past success.

[Chinook]

So I'm going to leave out the team acquiring any current of former MVP winners or close-losers as being unrealistic. I'm also going to assume the Spurs have about $20 Million in cap space. The real number is variable, and I don't wanna calculate it until we know where those variables end up. For the draft, I'm assuming the Spurs end up with the sixth-, seventh-, 35th- and 46th-overall picks.

Trade:

SAS: Trades Collins, Graham, Branham, 35, 46, ATL25 and CHA25 for Middleton, Portis and 22
MKE: Trades Middleton, Portis, 22 and 34 for Capela, Murray, Branham and 46
ATL: Trades Murray and Capela for Collins, Graham, 34, 35, ATL 25 and CHA25

Draft:

6 -- Dillingham
7 -- Holland
22 -- Smith

Free Agency:

Royce O'Neale for full room exception

Roster:

Dilligham, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Holland, Champangie
Middleton, Johnson, Cissoko
Sochan, O'Neale, Smith
Wembanyama, Portis, Bassey

Comments:

I really like the mix of youth and experience in that rotation. Middleton and Portis bring championship experience while also having experience playing in a system similar to that of the Spurs and of having a unicorn front-court player lead their team. Khris helps Dillingham grow into the starting PG role as well as providing a body in what should be a very strong defensive core. Holland may seem like an awkward fit as the backup SG, but he and Johnson basically share wing duties. If Jones' shooting has really come around, that second unit has enough spacing to let Holland come along slowly and threaten the rim the way only he can. His size, athleticism and instincts would be the final piece of the defensive core, and he'd hopefully progress to the point of taking over for Middleton or Sochan in a couple of years. Smith is an interesting player who just seems to be flying under the radar. He has the size to be the fourth-string center but might end up being the long-term PF. Snagging him on a rookie-scale contract is the final piece to the trade that makes it palatable to give up an unprotected pick from a team on the verge of rebuilding.

If Wemby grows as quickly as some expect him to, the Spurs could be legit contenders with this roster. The point of it is to provide a strong trellis for Victor, Devin, Jeremy, Rob and Ron to grow. But that team's talented and versatile, and if a couple of guys take some steps, the team could support a superstar Victor as a dark horse. A more likely outcome would be the Spurs use the decent contracts and remaining assets to make another splash move But in that scenario, there's already redundancy and contingency plans in place to absorb the impact of meeting the seller's price.

[scott]

I don’t necessarily love the exact moves you’re making SpursBills and Chinook, but if the Spurs went in either of directions I’d be happy at the steps and do think we’d see some nice improvement.
Chinook - who is Smith that you are taking at 22? The name isn’t connecting with the prospect for me.

[Chinook]

I don’t necessarily love the exact moves you’re making SpursBills (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=18470) and Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557), but if the Spurs went in either of directions I’d be happy at the steps and do think we’d see some nice improvement.
Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) - who is Smith that you are taking at 22? The name isn’t connecting with the prospect for me.

Tyler Smith -- 6-11 forward from the Ignite


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wUzHnhcRxE&ab_channel=NBAGLeague

[scott]

^Thanks Chinook. Forgot about him, though I think I’ve been seeing him mocked quite a bit earlier as of late. This draft is all over the place.

[stnick2261]

This is how I see the team:

https://imgur.com/a/ewqmmVj
https://i.imgur.com/uGbCoUs.jpg

??? / Tre Jones
Devin Vassell / ???
??? / Keldon Johnson
??? / Jeremy Sochan
Victor Wemby / ???

I really don't want another tanking year (especially with how good Wemby is), but I don't see the available players in trade or FA to make us contenders this summer. I would have a 2 year plan to get our entire 2-deep to be at least "starter quality". I wouldn't mind drafting "projects" with high upside. I would do what I could to make sure there is cap room for 2025 Free Agency (which it looks like we have plenty of room).

Summer of 2025:

Nikola Topic* / Tre Jones
Devin Vassell / ('24 or '25 Draft)
OG Anunoby / Keldon Johnson
Lauri Markkanen / Jeremy Sochan
Victor Wembanyama / ('24 or '25 Draft)

*I'm still high on Topic, but I wouldn't be disappointed in getting someone else. We are going to have like 6 first round draft picks; someone is bound to be good.

[spurraider21]

Dilly/Holland would be a nice pairing imo

[Guru of Nothing]

As I've mentioned before, if next season is going to be round 2 of figuring shit out, my suggestion is that PATFO address PG and 3&D first. As for the PF, I see an opportunity to go super cheap and roll out Mamu and Barlow and let them fight it out for their share of the 48 minutes. If PG and 3&D are shored up, and we still have a PF issue, then address it a year from now, and then hopefully the team hits the ground running at full speed in Wemby's third year.

Also, bring in someone like a Tobias Harris on a heavy 2-year contract and give Sochan marching orders to take the starting position from "old man" Tobias (or Gordon Heyward as another example) in 2024, or he's out the door sooner than later (light a fire under his ass, in other words).

[vy65]

So I'm going to leave out the team acquiring any current of former MVP winners or close-losers as being unrealistic. I'm also going to assume the Spurs have about $20 Million in cap space. The real number is variable, and I don't wanna calculate it until we know where those variables end up. For the draft, I'm assuming the Spurs end up with the sixth-, seventh-, 35th- and 46th-overall picks.

Trade:

SAS: Trades Collins, Graham, Branham, 35, 46, ATL25 and CHA25 for Middleton, Portis and 22
MKE: Trades Middleton, Portis, 22 and 34 for Capela, Murray, Branham and 46
ATL: Trades Murray and Capela for Collins, Graham, 34, 35, ATL 25 and CHA25

Draft:

6 -- Dillingham
7 -- Holland
22 -- Smith

Free Agency:

Royce O'Neale for full room exception

Roster:

Dilligham, Jones, Wesley
Vassell, Holland, Champangie
Middleton, Johnson, Cissoko
Sochan, O'Neale, Smith
Wembanyama, Portis, Bassey

Comments:

I really like the mix of youth and experience in that rotation. Middleton and Portis bring championship experience while also having experience playing in a system similar to that of the Spurs and of having a unicorn front-court player lead their team. Khris helps Dillingham grow into the starting PG role as well as providing a body in what should be a very strong defensive core. Holland may seem like an awkward fit as the backup SG, but he and Johnson basically share wing duties. If Jones' shooting has really come around, that second unit has enough spacing to let Holland come along slowly and threaten the rim the way only he can. His size, athleticism and instincts would be the final piece of the defensive core, and he'd hopefully progress to the point of taking over for Middleton or Sochan in a couple of years. Smith is an interesting player who just seems to be flying under the radar. He has the size to be the fourth-string center but might end up being the long-term PF. Snagging him on a rookie-scale contract is the final piece to the trade that makes it palatable to give up an unprotected pick from a team on the verge of rebuilding.

If Wemby grows as quickly as some expect him to, the Spurs could be legit contenders with this roster. The point of it is to provide a strong trellis for Victor, Devin, Jeremy, Rob and Ron to grow. But that team's talented and versatile, and if a couple of guys take some steps, the team could support a superstar Victor as a dark horse. A more likely outcome would be the Spurs use the decent contracts and remaining assets to make another splash move But in that scenario, there's already redundancy and contingency plans in place to absorb the impact of meeting the seller's price.

Giving up a potential lottery pick with ATL25 makes this an overpay. Don’t like Middleton; he’s had injury issues in the past, played 55 games this year, and is 32 years old. Not saying that he’s a hard no - but I’d be more comfortable giving us SAS25 than ATL25 in that deal.

[spurraider21]

Giving up a potential lottery pick with ATL25 makes this an overpay. Don’t like Middleton; he’s had injury issues in the past, played 55 games this year, and is 32 years old. Not saying that he’s a hard no - but I’d be more comfortable giving us SAS25 than ATL25 in that deal.
i definitely paused for a bit to process the full scope of chinook's scenario. instinctively didnt like it, seeing the ATL 25. but the more i thought the more i realized its quite a good deal tbh, though im not sure the other teams would do it.

you are also getting back 22 in this year's draft and portis is quite a good player too. finding a natural way to offload zollins is nice, and you still hang onto keldon has a future trade chip as well.

[ginobilized]

After watching the season end with a high IQ player in the lineup with Wemby, I think that 's what he requires. Just one other starter that can pass well could unlock the offense a bit more.
Wemby's ungodly abilities include unselfishness and an uncanny ability to read his teammates. Sochan, Vassell, KJ, Wesley, and Branham are hard to read because they are not savvy on either side of the ball quite often. I see Pop working to teach them the game, but, I'm not sure how much Bball IQ can be learned.

Jokic is on his way toward a likely 3rd MVP this season. It's a (albeit slight) possibility that the Nuggets would be better with Wemby. This season. Swap Wemby with Embiid, Giannis, Porzingis or AD and those teams are not looking worse. He can play with just about anyone. It was sad to see him struggle with the highly questionable decision-making of his teammates and coaches to begin the year. The Spurs have seen the light regarding Wemby, undoubtedly. I hope the leashes shorten on the bone-headed plays that these guys make.

Better players with high IQ would be my prime offseason wish. Moving on from a couple of the guys would be my secondary wish.

[DPG21920]

If Collins is perfectly fine, why would we have to use a pick to move him? Picks are only needed to sweeten the deal to take bad money on, but if Collins is, "perfectly fine" then it doesn't make sense that we would need to send a pick off in a trade with him but rather that we could get value back for him instead, no?

Let me clarify…I meant play him and look to move him if his value is high enough to warrant not giving anything up. But if heading into FA this year or next that opportunity has not presented itself and SA needs the space, hes an obvious salary to dump even if it costs 2nds which we have an abundance of.

[jesterbobman]

So, rough idea.

Draft
Sarr (Our pick) and Sheppard (Raptors pick). Doesn't address the wing / SF minutes, but I think those are the best prospects that are likely to be available there (Sarr should be gone earlier, but shit happens). Sarr as a pure Centre doesn't work, but I think there's a value in being able to go huge at the big spots and I think he's mobile enough to cover out on the perimeter well enough, and Wemby is a good enough range shooter that spacing shouldn't be the issue completely that it is in places like Cleveland, and defensively you have more size to cover / help behind Wemby, so that he can be more than a drop big and potentially be a scary roamer.

Trade:
35 and 46 to somewhere in the late first, draft one of Tyler Smith, KyShawn George, Jonny Furphy (SGF below). Just jumping up a few spots to target someone specific.

Trade:
Keldon Johnson, Malaki Branham, Charlotte 25, Chicago 25, 2 second round picks (one each in 25, 26) to Cleveland, Darius Garland to San Antonio (this is basically the "Mitchell has decided to stay" trade). Those second round picks should be around 40 / early in the second, so it's making a trade of a lot of depth picks to a team light on picks from the Mitchell trade, where the Mitchell / Garland pairing is not working. I don't think Garland is amazing, but I think he fits well as a shooter.

FA:
Gap to fill is SF. Ideal is probably that Paul George goes to Philly, and we can fit in Tobias Harris as a 2 - 3 year at a bit of an overpay. Don't think we have room for that, but I'm going to be generous in our wish list scenario that we're one of the teams with the most space, a clear starting role, and the other cap space teams aren't looking for him (Detroit is probably a pass from Tobias, I'm assuming Philly has moved on, OKC could (would fit well there, depends on his preference), Utah is in tank mode, Charlotte has Brandon Miller etc).

Team:

Garland / Tre / Blake
Vassell / Sheppard
Tobias Harris / Champagnie / SGF / Sidy
Sarr / Sochan
Wemby / Collins

Idea is that you have shooters in the starting lineup with enough juice that Wemby doesn't need to do too much, and Sarr can cover the dunker spot / weak side rotations, and this should be a playoff team. Bench should be much better.

[Joseph Kony]

:lol the sniff crew thinks we should basically stand pat. not really surprising though considering most of these dolts were certain spurs would be a play in team at least and shit on anyone who predicted the under on Vegas' o/u last summer

newsflash - the team is full of low iq, one dimensional players who cannot create for themselves or others and cant guard a traffic cone. they arent going to magically mature into impact players

[Joseph Kony]

Spurs should maximize Wemby on a rookie deal as long as they can and go all-in ASAP imo. He will be a MVP level player next season and he doesnt need Luka or Giannis to compete for the chip

trade/waive/renounce/whatever basically everyone besides Wemby/Vassell/Sochan and maybe Mamu if he can re-sign on a good deal. offer PG the max, trade for Young. Wemby/PG/Trae trio is good enough to win a title next season

[DPG21920]

Spurs should maximize Wemby on a rookie deal as long as they can and go all-in ASAP imo. He will be a MVP level player next season and he doesnt need Luka or Giannis to compete for the chip

trade/waive/renounce/whatever basically everyone besides Wemby/Vassell/Sochan and maybe Mamu if he can re-sign on a good deal. offer PG the max, trade for Young. Wemby/PG/Trae trio is good enough to win a title next season

Lmao what???? Trae with Dejounte and other solid players cant even make the playoffs and PG has Kawhi playing most games hes ever played and James Harden and cant win a title.

[baseline bum]

Out of the current roster, in an ideal summer, I would only want the following back:

Wemby
Sochan
Vassel
Keldon
Tre Jones
Cedi
Branham
Wesley
Mamu

Even though Branham is back in this scenario, I do NOT want the Spurs to pick up his option. I don't want the Spurs to pick up Blake's option either and I would not want either to be rotation players unless they do something dramatic over the summer. Both of them would then have their 3rd year to show they are NBA players but they shouldn't be given minutes.

Cedi is definitely a rotation level player and I would like him as a bench piece who can occasionally fill in as a starter. Not sure what salary he'll command, but I think he's a worthwhile player to have at the end of a rotation.

Champagne
Barlow
Bassey
Sidy

They've had plenty of chances but on a bad team they never showed enough IMO. Being a fringe player on a 20 win team means that you're not an NBA level rotation player for a winning team. Sidy is a bit different I suppose, but I just dont' think there's enough to keep him around and I'd rather use the roster spot on someone else.

Assuming we draft 2-3 rookies, I just want the players in Free agency who are capable of starting on an NBA team. I want a starting point guard. I think Tre is a serviceable backup and he tries so damn hard, but he is not a point guard that starts on a good NBA team and I don't think we'll see him take another step. He is what he is.

In an ideal summer I'd really want to cash out on Keldon before his trade value zeroes out and get someone who fits next to Victor.

[DPG21920]

Im on the Keldon for Patrick Williams trade personally.

Beyond that, keep Tre + Mamu + Champagnie IMO and everyone else can go (outside of Wemby/Dev/Vassell) or has to compete for a roster spot.

Getting a Brogdon or Tyus type PG makes sense if cost is cheap enough.

From a big move perspective, I would keep an eye on Giannis situation….

[baseline bum]

Giving up a potential lottery pick with ATL25 makes this an overpay. Don’t like Middleton; he’s had injury issues in the past, played 55 games this year, and is 32 years old. Not saying that he’s a hard no - but I’d be more comfortable giving us SAS25 than ATL25 in that deal.

Would be a hard no for me. Old and injury prone isn't a good combination and if Milwaukee is trading him they're probably blowing everything up anyways because Giannis asked out. In which case just offer Milwaukee picks, swaps, Keldon, and maybe Devin for Giannis.

[baseline bum]

Spurs should maximize Wemby on a rookie deal as long as they can and go all-in ASAP imo. He will be a MVP level player next season and he doesnt need Luka or Giannis to compete for the chip

trade/waive/renounce/whatever basically everyone besides Wemby/Vassell/Sochan and maybe Mamu if he can re-sign on a good deal. offer PG the max, trade for Young. Wemby/PG/Trae trio is good enough to win a title next season

They only have $20 million in capspace so would need the Clippers to agree to say a Keldon + Graham for PG13 sign and trade to pull it off. Would still be really tough to then put together the matching salary for Trae without including Vassell.

[vy65]

I’ve been in the Type B camp of “be aggressive, but don’t go all out.” That said, and the more I think about it, Wemby’s progress figures to be asymptotic. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s a top-10 player next year, while still being on a rookie contract. So I think a borderline all-in move probably makes sense (call it a Type A-/B+).

Lauri Markenen would be absolutely killer. I’d send UTA some package of: SAS24, TOR24/25, CHI, CHA, ATL25, Keldon, Wesley, and Branham for Lauri. We could add more picks (depending on what the other offers are, if any). Lauri only has 1 more year on his contract, and if he isn’t staying, then UTA is going to have to monetize him - so that’d be the incentive for them to deal).

I’d try to package our two SRPs this year, with maybe a future SRP, to move into the 20s and take Kyshawn George as the guy to develop behind Tre as our future starter. I’d look free agency or make a minor-ish trade for a backup G/F.

Tre/Kyshawn George
Vassel/Champagnie
Lauri/Sidy/G-F placeholder
Sochan/Mamu/G-F placeholder
Wemby/Zollins

[DPG21920]

The only way Spurs should do something like that is if PG wants to take less money. Spurs can ship out Collins to get to 30M in (roughly) salary cap space and if PG is willing to sign for that? Ok maybe. But dont give up players and picks.

But if they will take something like Collins/Keldon? Then I dont mind paying someone like PG the money Keldon/Collins are getting and consolidating their money into one player.

[LeBowen]

In an ideal summer I'd really want to cash out on Keldon before his trade value zeroes out and get someone who fits next to Victor.

Exactly.
Keldon is a net negative on both ends if we talk serious basketball. Luckily for us, most teams haven't caught up with it yet.
Him and Collins are a perfect combo to be paired for a star player. Keldon even has positive value and isn't just a contract to match salaries.


They only have $20 million in capspace so would need the Clippers to agree to say a Keldon + Graham for PG13 sign and trade to pull it off. Would still be really tough to then put together the matching salary for Trae without including Vassell.

If Spurs are to trade for multiple players with big contracts, Vassell has to go. Won't happen, but can't have Trae, PG and Vassell on the roster, we'd need some depth.
While PG has been great this season, he's about to turn 34 and always has those nagging injuries.

The only reasonable Trae trade would look something like Collins+Keldon+Hawks picks and maybe Chicago pick for Trae.

But the issue is that even if we get let's say Trae, Naz Reid and a forward, we'd still be left with Tre, Sochan, rookie, Mamu, veteran big bench.
Way too early to blow your load.

For the next season I just want a competent point guard and a veteran forward so Wemby can play to his full potential. We probably get to the play-in, which would be satisfactory.
Too many moving parts in the 2025 draft with all those picks. But we should really be a playoff team in 25/26 season.

[Seventyniner]

A sign-and-trade for PG13 is interesting. The Clippers' future drafts are completely fucked: they owe their 2024/2026/2028 firsts outright and other teams have swap rights with them in 2025/2027/2029. They don't have any second round picks at all from 2025 to 2029.

If George wants to come to San Antonio, the Spurs want him, and they can agree on a contract (he will likely want at least 4/190), the Spurs have plenty of assets to get the deal done. Keldon and Collins provide enough matching salary and the Spurs have extra picks for days.

There is no way Ballmer will let George go over money, especially with the Clippers moving into a new arena, so the only way this would happen is if George threatens to walk if he doesn't get dealt to the Spurs. Certainly a longshot.

That's a huge contract for someone who will be 34 to start next season, but if the Spurs really want to win now it's hard to imagine a better free agent. If George wants to be a Spur he will know that he's going to be at best the second option, and probably more like 2a/2b with Vassell. There would be no reason to trade for Trae Young at that point. A starting lineup of Tre Jones/Vassell/George/Sochan/Wemby is definitely playable, especially if Jones's 3 point shooting as a starter can carry over.

[$pursDynasty]

Spurs get lottery magic get picks #2 and Toronto's #7, the Spurs draft Sarr and Dilly with those two picks, and somehow Eddy slides to them in the 2nd round. Then the Celtics have to release or trade to us for something minimal Derrick White. DW can become the defensive point mature leader under Wemby's team. Dilly can be more of instant offense off the bench where his lack of defense won't be as much of an issue. Sarr buys into the "Rodman" role on the team, dedicated to defense and rebounds, allowing Wemby to flourish on offense and pick his spots on defense. Eddy has issues but he can be a much more effective Boban so it increases length which seems to be important for the Spurs. Imagine a lineup of Wemby, Sarr and Eddy on the court, lol. I can't think of an outcome much better than that and it doesn't seem that far out of reach either.

[Seventyniner]

I hadn't realized just how fucked the Clippers' drafts are for the next 6 years. From 2024 to 2029 they have a total of three firsts and one second.

2024: Only #47
2025: A first that the Thunder have swap rights to, no second
2026: No picks at all
2027: A first that the Thunder have swap rights to, no second
2028: No picks at all
2029: A first that the Sixers have swap rights to, no second

That's on top of being a luxury tax team for at least the next 2 years if they give George and Harden new contracts, at least if they don't take big pay cuts.

I wonder at what point the Clippers bite the bullet and realize they have no way to improve the team as things stand. That becomes even more likely if they flame out in the first round.

[LeBowen]

I hadn't realized just how fucked the Clippers' drafts are for the next 6 years. From 2024 to 2029 they have a total of three firsts and one second.

2024: Only #47
2025: A first that the Thunder have swap rights to, no second
2026: No picks at all
2027: A first that the Thunder have swap rights to, no second
2028: No picks at all
2029: A first that the Sixers have swap rights to, no second

That's on top of being a luxury tax team for at least the next 2 years if they give George and Harden new contracts, at least if they don't take big pay cuts.

I wonder at what point the Clippers bite the bullet and realize they have no way to improve the team as things stand. That becomes even more likely if they flame out in the first round.

Steve Ballmer is worth 125 billion dollars and it looks like Clippers are his favorite toy. He's going to pay all the luxury tax and then some more.
They're opening their new arena next season, no way they blow it up.
The only way any of those stars leaves is if they ask out.

With that being said, I don't see a single reason why would PG13 prefer Spurs that aren't on his timeline over Sixers that will be in for a full rebuild, more or less. The only players they have on the payroll for the next season are Embiid and Maxey.

[spurraider21]

A sign-and-trade for PG13 is interesting. The Clippers' future drafts are completely fucked: they owe their 2024/2026/2028 firsts outright and other teams have swap rights with them in 2025/2027/2029. They don't have any second round picks at all from 2025 to 2029.

If George wants to come to San Antonio, the Spurs want him, and they can agree on a contract (he will likely want at least 4/190), the Spurs have plenty of assets to get the deal done. Keldon and Collins provide enough matching salary and the Spurs have extra picks for days.

There is no way Ballmer will let George go over money, especially with the Clippers moving into a new arena, so the only way this would happen is if George threatens to walk if he doesn't get dealt to the Spurs. Certainly a longshot.

That's a huge contract for someone who will be 34 to start next season, but if the Spurs really want to win now it's hard to imagine a better free agent. If George wants to be a Spur he will know that he's going to be at best the second option, and probably more like 2a/2b with Vassell. There would be no reason to trade for Trae Young at that point. A starting lineup of Tre Jones/Vassell/George/Sochan/Wemby is definitely playable, especially if Jones's 3 point shooting as a starter can carry over.
i think george is much more likely to go to philly if he leaves the clippers

but yeah PG is probably my dream scenario. and he absolutely would not be in a 2a/2b situation with vassell, he'd clearly be ahead of him in the pecking order

[TD 21]

Skimming through this, so many delusional takes in terms of potentially available names, what it would take to get them, disregarding whether they'd fit the precious "culture" (which is always the number one consideration from PATFO), etc.


From a big move perspective, I would keep an eye on Giannis situation….

:lmao At thinking he'll be attainable. Big ego, fiercely competitive, guard like skilled big man in probably his late prime (considering how athletically reliant he is) is going to want to age into being the Robinson to Wembanyama's Duncan? Not good for the "legacy".

If/when he wants out, the Thunder will be the overwhelming favorites. Best assets, would fill a need, out of conference and a more natural fit with Gilgeous-Alexander.

[Mugen]

Ingram is an interesting target tbh. His injury history is concerning though.

[spurraider21]

Ingram is an interesting target tbh. His injury history is concerning though.
It’s also what could make the pelicans inclined to trade him in the first place. Tho they aren’t in cap trouble just yet

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

light a candle wemby stays healthy

that's it

[TD 21]

Ingram is an interesting target tbh. His injury history is concerning though.

That and he's overrated.

The thing with him, Murray and Garland is, if they're to be traded, that means Young, Mitchell and Williamson aren't, which means those remain win now situations so pick based packages probably aren't going to be their number one priority.

The Pelicans supposedly had interest in Murray at the deadline and have long sought a rim protecting C. I could see Murray and Capela for Ingram and Nance Jr.

[Chinook]

i definitely paused for a bit to process the full scope of chinook's scenario. instinctively didnt like it, seeing the ATL 25. but the more i thought the more i realized its quite a good deal tbh, though im not sure the other teams would do it.

you are also getting back 22 in this year's draft and portis is quite a good player too. finding a natural way to offload zollins is nice, and you still hang onto keldon has a future trade chip as well.

The Hawks would do this trade as an attempt to go all-in around Trae and Johnson. They can take Zach into a TE and basically make two new TEs for Murray and Capela in addition to the two firsts and two high-seconds. That gives them a lot of firepower to try to get some help.

Milwaukee is rumored to be interested in Murray, and they simply don't have the picks to get a trade done. They have to trade ballast that can bring picks from a third team, and Middleton and Portis seem to be it. Of course, they could try to redirect Lillard, but that would be a tough pill for the team to swallow, and swapping out Dame for DeJounte doesn't actually get the Bucks closer to a title.


Giving up a potential lottery pick with ATL25 makes this an overpay. Don’t like Middleton; he’s had injury issues in the past, played 55 games this year, and is 32 years old. Not saying that he’s a hard no - but I’d be more comfortable giving us SAS25 than ATL25 in that deal.

ATL25 would be the Hawks' price for letting the Spurs into the conversation. I don't see it as negotiable, so the next step would be to see how much value the Spurs could get for that pick. There are other second teams that could want Murray and/or Young and trade players the Spurs might want. This was my pick for ideal scenario because Middleton checks all the boxes and Portis is probably the second-best flex big in the league right now with Horford declining. I also think there is talent in the second half of the first that should be part of the discussion, especially if the Toronto pick doesn't convey. Considering the real chance ATL gets its shit together next year after a trade like this, I'm okay with giving up the pick here.


Would be a hard no for me. Old and injury prone isn't a good combination and if Milwaukee is trading him they're probably blowing everything up anyways because Giannis asked out. In which case just offer Milwaukee picks, swaps, Keldon, and maybe Devin for Giannis.

As mentioned, the Bucks are looking to retool around Giannis in the same way they were about him when they traded Holiday. They would struggle to come up with a credible offer for Murray without trading one or Lillard or Middleton, and I doubt their intention is to swap Dame out for a borderline All-Star after they gave up so much to get him. So I don't see any reason why Giannis would be on the table.

Anyway, I don't actually see Middleton's condition as a huge downer, seeing as the Spurs just drafted a high-upside SF in this scenario who would already be slated to take over from Khris anyway. That Holland would get some starts in during the season doesn't particularly bother me, and having a guy who knows how to be an elite perimeter defender there to teach a guy with all the physical tools to do the same seems like a huge bonus. This isn't supposed to be an off-season scenario that sees them become contenders. It's one more appropriate to where Wemby actually is and more of an evolution from where I think the team SHOULD have been this year had they brought in some lower-level vets and let them compete for minutes with the young guys. It's racheting up that competition while ultimately supporting the growth of the young guys.

[heyheymymy]

Dilly/Holland would be a nice pairing imo

Been looking at tons of diff combos should the TOR convey and that's indeed an interesting pairing I've yet to consider, thanks. My main priority is at least one shooter and guard/wing combo though I've been looking at two guard parings as well.

[baseline bum]

The Hawks would do this trade as an attempt to go all-in around Trae and Johnson. They can take Zach into a TE and basically make two new TEs for Murray and Capela in addition to the two firsts and two high-seconds. That gives them a lot of firepower to try to get some help.

Milwaukee is rumored to be interested in Murray, and they simply don't have the picks to get a trade done. They have to trade ballast that can bring picks from a third team, and Middleton and Portis seem to be it. Of course, they could try to redirect Lillard, but that would be a tough pill for the team to swallow, and swapping out Dame for DeJounte doesn't actually get the Bucks closer to a title.



ATL25 would be the Hawks' price for letting the Spurs into the conversation. I don't see it as negotiable, so the next step would be to see how much value the Spurs could get for that pick. There are other second teams that could want Murray and/or Young and trade players the Spurs might want. This was my pick for ideal scenario because Middleton checks all the boxes and Portis is probably the second-best flex big in the league right now with Horford declining. I also think there is talent in the second half of the first that should be part of the discussion, especially if the Toronto pick doesn't convey. Considering the real chance ATL gets its shit together next year after a trade like this, I'm okay with giving up the pick here.



As mentioned, the Bucks are looking to retool around Giannis in the same way they were about him when they traded Holiday. They would struggle to come up with a credible offer for Murray without trading one or Lillard or Middleton, and I doubt their intention is to swap Dame out for a borderline All-Star after they gave up so much to get him. So I don't see any reason why Giannis would be on the table.

Anyway, I don't actually see Middleton's condition as a huge downer, seeing as the Spurs just drafted a high-upside SF in this scenario who would already be slated to take over from Khris anyway. That Holland would get some starts in during the season doesn't particularly bother me, and having a guy who knows how to be an elite perimeter defender there to teach a guy with all the physical tools to do the same seems like a huge bonus. This isn't supposed to be an off-season scenario that sees them become contenders. It's one more appropriate to where Wemby actually is and more of an evolution from where I think the team SHOULD have been this year had they brought in some lower-level vets and let them compete for minutes with the young guys. It's racheting up that competition while ultimately supporting the growth of the young guys.

Those Atlanta picks and the swap are far and away the best trading chips the Spurs have and the 25 pick is the best asset of the three. You gotta get something better than the middle of the downswing of Middleton's career in the best case for that 25 pick. Holland is nowhere near a good enough prospect to throw away a 25 mid to late lottery pick for a past his prime used to be a secondary star who would only be under contract for one more year and becomes a very expensive free agent the year the new TV / Streaming deal kicks in.

[Chinook]

Those Atlanta picks and the swap are far and away the best trading chips the Spurs have and the 25 pick is the best asset of the three. You gotta get something better than the middle of the downswing of Middleton's career in the best case for that 25 pick. Holland is nowhere near a good enough prospect to throw away a 25 mid to late lottery pick for a past his prime secondary star who would only be under contract for one more year and becomes a very expensive free agent the year the new TV / Streaming deal kicks in.

I'm not really worried about Middleton opting out if he's anything but spectacular next year. If he is, the pejoratives you're using wouldn't apply. Hell, I'd argue that a Middleton playing well enough to seriously consider opting out of that last year would be a great trade piece if the Spurs don't think they can re-sign him. If he's more limited to the point where opting in is an overpay, he still provides the intangibles the team needs. Given his familiarity with Pop, I thin the team would know if they think Khris would be a locker room issue.

The 2025 ATL pick is not really valuable in a world where the Hawks keep Young and trade Murray as a way to get win-now help. They're on track to get the 10th pick this year and shouldn't be worse next year. I'd say the 2026 swap and 2027 are more likely to convey a high pick because that's after the period where the Young trade window truly opens up.

Anyway, the team is trying to win titles, not free agencies. They should be making moves to reinforce and widen their window and not blow it chasing names like basically every team who's failed to hold onto a generational talent has done. Of course, I can't make you like Middleton, but I'd rather him for this price than Young for his projected price every day of the week.

[cutewizard]

Whiteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee is coming

[cutewizard]

Sign Kai Sotto

[baseline bum]

I'm not really worried about Middleton opting out if he's anything but spectacular next year. If he is, the pejoratives you're using wouldn't apply. Hell, I'd argue that a Middleton playing well enough to seriously consider opting out of that last year would be a great trade piece if the Spurs don't think they can re-sign him. If he's more limited to the point where opting in is an overpay, he still provides the intangibles the team needs. Given his familiarity with Pop, I thin the team would know if they think Khris would be a locker room issue.

The 2025 ATL pick is not really valuable in a world where the Hawks keep Young and trade Murray as a way to get win-now help. They're on track to get the 10th pick this year and shouldn't be worse next year. I'd say the 2026 swap and 2027 are more likely to convey a high pick because that's after the period where the Young trade window truly opens up.

Anyway, the team is trying to win titles, not free agencies. They should be making moves to reinforce and widen their window and not blow it chasing names like basically every team who's failed to hold onto a generational talent has done. Of course, I can't make you like Middleton, but I'd rather him for this price than Young for his projected price every day of the week.

Completely disagree, Atlanta tried to trade Murray for win now help this year and all they got offered was D'Angelo Russell. That 25 Hawks pick is likely to be a lottery pick for a much better draft you're giving away to try to groom a prospect who looks to have very high bust potential. Keldon's more the kind of trade piece I'd use to go after a vet mentor.

[cutewizard]

Klay with 0 points

[playbonner15]

Sign Kai Sotto
why?

[vander]

such a bad draft yet everyone wants that Toronto pick to convey?
I hope Toronto keeps their pick, and Spurs draft Sheppard

then I hope they make a Collins/Keldon trade during the season with a team that needs to change course or blow it up

[Em-City]

Yeah, I didn't put you in that camp. If I had to basically build different buckets for folks to fall in, I think I'd draw them up this way:

Group A: This roster needs a major overhaul ASAP. Everyone but Wemby must go NOW. (Plenty of people on this board fall in here)
Group B: This roster needs a major overhaul, but not quite as drastic and with some semblance of long-term vision in mind. Within 2 seasons the core 10-man rotation should look pretty different. (I'd put myself here)
Group C: We should look to improve the roster via the draft and frugal moves. Don't spend too much to maintain flexibility for a potential big move TBD at some point in the future should it present itself. (I'd put you here, DPG)
Group D: Run it back, this roster is good enough, just needs time to develop. (Where Mr. Body appears to be)

We could undoubtedly come up with a lot of shades of gray between these, but these are the main buckets IMO. I'd curious and what bucket posters fall into... but mostly I am hoping to see some roster constructions that people would want to pursue this offseason based on what we know now.

You should make a poll tbh

[TDMVPDPOY]

doesnt dame want out of the bucks? then again from bucks to spurs is still teh same shit city for a rich stud who just wants to living it up and fck hot bitches...

how about that pos CP3?

[baseline bum]

such a bad draft yet everyone wants that Toronto pick to convey?
I hope Toronto keeps their pick, and Spurs draft Sheppard

then I hope they make a Collins/Keldon trade during the season with a team that needs to change course or blow it up

Mostly because the Spurs need players now so they don't have another 22 win season and because they should have three firsts next year even if the Toronto pick conveys this season thanks to the Chicago pick they own.

[Chinook]

Completely disagree, Atlanta tried to trade Murray for win now help this year and all they got offered was D'Angelo Russell. That 25 Hawks pick is likely to be a lottery pick for a much better draft you're giving away to try to groom a prospect who looks to have very high bust potential. Keldon's more the kind of trade piece I'd use to go after a vet mentor.

It's hard to agree with this. Like we don't know what ATL was actually offered. We only know they didn't do a trade. It was an odd strategy to trade DeJounte mid-season anyway, and the way he finished the year should reassure folks that he's actually a decent player rather than getting spooked the way they did by the Hawks' reported fervor to make a move. Moreover, the Hawks aren't trading Murray for win-now help in his trade. They're trading him for the ability to offer a number of picks for a win-now player and to create big trade exceptions to facilitate that. We don't know Atlanta's true plan of course. But an Atlanta that wants and is able to do this trade would probably be one that can make the improvements they need to take advantage of the 2025 tankaton coming up.

Draft picks aren't lottery tickets. The Spurs shouldn't draft Holland or anyone thinking of them that way. He's either going to succeed or fail based on his development, not some random dice roll. If they're going to draft two guys in the top 10, they should definitely support them. Not doing so is how you get the jerky development that Wesley, Branham and Sochan have received. Most folks want the Spurs to draft wings and forwards, and whoever they pick should get the same level of support and not be forced to start. The time for starting prospects and giving young guys guaranteed minutes is over.

Finally, mentors aren't cheap, especially not good ones who can stabilize a locker room and lead on the court. The Nuggets didn't trade for Millsap, but he cost $90M/3 when they signed him, which in today's cap dollars would be $127M/3. That's less than what Middleton and Portis make combined. I've talked a lot about the benefits these guys would have for the team leveling up. It's not just Holland who would be supported here. Vassell gets another vet wing to learn from with a skill-set a bit closer to his own. Dillingham gets a guy who can help take play-making pressure off him. Sochan gets another good to switch with. Wemby gets a very good compliment both as his main backup who has already proven he can play next to other bigs and Giannis. If the goal is to win titles, this is a much better step toward that than trading for Young is. They can trade less now to get to a point where a Young trade potentially puts them over the top rather than trade for him now, still not be close to being a contender and be forced to give him a giant extension while hoping to acquire the depth to win.

[baseline bum]

It's hard to agree with this. Like we don't know what ATL was actually offered. We only know they didn't do a trade. It was an odd strategy to trade DeJounte mid-season anyway, and the way he finished the year should reassure folks that he's actually a decent player rather than getting spooked the way they did by the Hawks' reported fervor to make a move. Moreover, the Hawks aren't trading Murray for win-now help in his trade. They're trading him for the ability to offer a number of picks for a win-now player and to create big trade exceptions to facilitate that. We don't know Atlanta's true plan of course. But an Atlanta that wants and is able to do this trade would probably be one that can make the improvements they need to take advantage of the 2025 tankaton coming up.

Draft picks aren't lottery tickets. The Spurs shouldn't draft Holland or anyone thinking of them that way. He's either going to succeed or fail based on his development, not some random dice roll. If they're going to draft two guys in the top 10, they should definitely support them. Not doing so is how you get the jerky development that Wesley, Branham and Sochan have received. Most folks want the Spurs to draft wings and forwards, and whoever they pick should get the same level of support and not be forced to start. The time for starting prospects and giving young guys guaranteed minutes is over.

Finally, mentors aren't cheap, especially not good ones who can stabilize a locker room and lead on the court. The Nuggets didn't trade for Millsap, but he cost $90M/3 when they signed him, which in today's cap dollars would be $127M/3. That's less than what Middleton and Portis make combined. I've talked a lot about the benefits these guys would have for the team leveling up. It's not just Holland who would be supported here. Vassell gets another vet wing to learn from with a skill-set a bit closer to his own. Dillingham gets a guy who can help take play-making pressure off him. Sochan gets another good to switch with. Wemby gets a very good compliment both as his main backup who has already proven he can play next to other bigs and Giannis. If the goal is to win titles, this is a much better step toward that than trading for Young is. They can trade less now to get to a point where a Young trade potentially puts them over the top rather than trade for him now, still not be close to being a contender and be forced to give him a giant extension while hoping to acquire the depth to win.

You want to give away the Spurs best trade asset in the hope it improves an extremely high risk draft choice when that draft pick you're sending out is very likely to be a better prospect than Holland. If you want a veteran mentor to teach the young guys how to play defense and what it takes to win titles Klay would be way cheaper both in terms of assets needed to make the deal and dollars paid out, assuming you'd have wanted Middleton for more than a one season rental.

[Chinook]

You want to give away the Spurs best trade asset in the hope it improves an extremely high risk draft choice when that draft pick you're sending out is very likely to be a better prospect than Holland. If you want a veteran mentor to teach the young guys how to play defense and what it takes to win titles Klay would be way cheaper both in terms of assets needed to make the deal and dollars paid out, assuming you'd have wanted Middleton for more than a one season rental.

You insisting ATL25 is the best asset isn't the same thing as it actually being so. It's based on a number of assumptions you're equating with facts or even consensus. I'm not saying you can't think whatever you want. But I think you should adjust your framing a bit.

I also think the impulse you have for the Spurs to be cheap in this transitional stage would put the team at risk if it's shared by PATFO. Thompson and Middleton aren't comparable pieces. Klay is pretty cooked and was pretty one-dimensional even when he had good games. He was always a non-factor on offense outside of scoring and had overrated defense even before he lost his mobility. I've never heard even a good thing about Thompson in the locker room, whereas Middleton has been noted as a strong presence. I'm not saying that the team shouldn't have Klay as a backup plan, but I don't think it's particularly close who's the better option for starting SF.

Trading ATL25 for two better fits and a 2024 first makes sense to me rather than trading what folks think is a negative contract in Johnson, using only the modest amount of cap space the team has to try to haggle for talent. You're welcome to have the opposite opinion there. For me, these transitional years are extremely important in terms of building up the core talent around Wemby. They won't be able to afford to buy it all when the time comes. I don't believe the Spurs NEED to trade ATL25 or anything, but they shouldn't go into the fall banking on that becoming something great. It's more important in my mind that they give the 2024 and earlier guys the best chance they have to develop before they take on a full win-now posture. They won't do that bargain shopping or dismissing their prospects because the grass under next year's draft crop looks greener.

[baseline bum]

You insisting ATL25 is the best asset isn't the same thing as it actually being so. It's based on a number of assumptions you're equating with facts or even consensus. I'm not saying you can't think whatever you want. But I think you should adjust your framing a bit.

I also think the impulse you have for the Spurs to be cheap in this transitional stage would put the team at risk if it's shared by PATFO. Thompson and Middleton aren't comparable pieces. Klay is pretty cooked and was pretty one-dimensional even when he had good games. He was always a non-factor on offense outside of scoring and had overrated defense even before he lost his mobility. I've never heard even a good thing about Thompson in the locker room, whereas Middleton has been noted as a strong presence. I'm not saying that the team shouldn't have Klay as a backup plan, but I don't think it's particularly close who's the better option for starting SF.

Trading ATL25 for two better fits and a 2024 first makes sense to me rather than trading what folks think is a negative contract in Johnson, using only the modest amount of cap space the team has to try to haggle for talent. You're welcome to have the opposite opinion there. For me, these transitional years are extremely important in terms of building up the core talent around Wemby. They won't be able to afford to buy it all when the time comes. I don't believe the Spurs NEED to trade ATL25 or anything, but they shouldn't go into the fall banking on that becoming something great. It's more important in my mind that they give the 2024 and earlier guys the best chance they have to develop before they take on a full win-now posture. They won't do that bargain shopping or dismissing their prospects because the grass under next year's draft crop looks greener.

The Atlanta 25 pick is the Spurs best trade asset because it's a likely lottery pick, unprotected, in what's expected to be a very strong draft and would convey soon. Keldon has already shown he can't play with Wemby which is why he was rightfully demoted to the bench in favor of a guy who should be an eighth or ninth man in a playoff team's rotation at best in Champagnie, and his trade value is likely to only decrease from here on out. Especially if the Spurs pick a forward like Holland as you're arguing for. Which is why I would move him this summer for a better fitting veteran. That pick is way too important to give away for a stopgap. I don't know why you're so against Trae who would instantly solve our PG problem and be someone they could still build longterm around. Then the Spurs could use their own picks plus the MLE in future years to try to find rotation players to put around Wemby, Trae, and hopefully Vassell. And that 25 pick could really be incredible if the Hawks panic and say trade Trae to the Lakers for their picks and Reaves; then we could be talking top 5. And #22 in this draft, gross.

[z0sa]

Yeah, I didn't put you in that camp. If I had to basically build different buckets for folks to fall in, I think I'd draw them up this way:

Group A: This roster needs a major overhaul ASAP. Everyone but Wemby must go NOW. (Plenty of people on this board fall in here)
Group B: This roster needs a major overhaul, but not quite as drastic and with some semblance of long-term vision in mind. Within 2 seasons the core 10-man rotation should look pretty different. (I'd put myself here)
Group C: We should look to improve the roster via the draft and frugal moves. Don't spend too much to maintain flexibility for a potential big move TBD at some point in the future should it present itself. (I'd put you here, DPG)
Group D: Run it back, this roster is good enough, just needs time to develop. (Where Mr. Body appears to be)

We could undoubtedly come up with a lot of shades of gray between these, but these are the main buckets IMO. I'd curious and what bucket posters fall into... but mostly I am hoping to see some roster constructions that people would want to pursue this offseason based on what we know now.

I was a mixture of B and C before the season. There was every reason to believe we'd be over on the Vegas win prediction.

Not any longer. I'm firmly B leaning hard towards A. If by the ASB of 2025 we are not fighting for the play-in, PATFO has fucked up. It's honestly that simple - for me. I understand many will likely disagree with this, but it just reeks of saving money and squeezing every drop of $$ out of the city if they don't have winning, at least enough for a play-in spot, in their sights for season 2. Wemby and the fanbase deserve better. It was a bit different in the 90s, I'd wager, though I was too young to have an opinion about such "complex" sports topics. The reason being, the Spurs hadn't won a 'ship. We're now 5 deep, and if we don't win, we are underachieving. That is the new reality, whether or not PATFO want to accept it. Again, this is all just my opinion and based off of your groupings, Scott. Not a direct response to the exchange that was occurring in the post.

Circling round, therefore, my ideal off-season would be picking up one of the two Atlanta players on the trading block - preferably Trae Young. However, I'd be ok with DJM as well. I can't comment on the draft until we know our position. From there, we've got choices. I wouldn't be against trading a #1 pick in this draft at all, however, if it netted us someone who can help us win now. I'm trusting PATFO - one last time - to do the right thing here. I think they do have the ability, but do they have the balls?

[MultiTroll]

Replace McDonald with:

https://www.the-sun.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2023/09/taken-without-permission-meet-lauren-848555042.jpg?w=620

[KobesAchilles]

There are zero people I still want on this team in two years time. Get rid of half this season and the other half next season. None of the starters on our team fits with Wemby. They are either not good enough (in Jones and Champ) too one dimensional in Vassell, or just undersized and not skilled at enough in Sochan.And too those idiots who claim to "wait and see," I will permaban myself if any of those players make an all-star team in our jersey. He is surrounded by bad basketball players. It doesn't help that they are too dumb to know how to play too.

As far as our bench go, Collins, Graham, and Mumu have to go. Tbh we could replace all our bench too and I would be ok with that. But if you want to wait on Branham and Wesley to somehow miraculously learn how to play basketball to where they would actually be useful on a winning team, it won't happen, then we can keep them for one more season. But again they will be gone in two years as well.

So my team is Wemby, FRP, FRP and that's it.

Also ideal is Pop is fired. The dude can't coach anymore. He's lost whatever it was that made him a good coach. You can still be very knowledgeable and be bad at coaching. It happens to older coaches all the time. He has no idea how to connect with this team to teach them how to do anything positive

[jesterbobman]

Chinooks Middleton / Portis option is pretty good, if we want to get better, we have to give up assets. I think it's too early for a full all in move (s), but some draft assets for good players is fine.

Everyone is going to have differing opinions on draft prospects and the exact guys, but the concept of getting real contributing vets, and building the roster up so that the development of young guys is in meaningful roles that are close to what they're best at, with some room to move around and stretch a bit is pretty important. Good vets, in both the aspect of being good players who contribute to winning, and have a meaningful, respected voice in the locker room is valuable.

The other detailed thing that I'd think of as a dream / ideal is moving down in the draft after the lottery, getting off of Collins.

Dallas went from 10 -> 12 last year to get off of Bertans' contract, which is (IMO) similar in negative value to Zach's deal. This draft doesn't seem as strong, but if we could move down from 5 to 8 or so (or 1 to 3, or ...) and get off Collins (and still get the player we wanted at 5, as this is such a beauty in the eye of the beholder draft) that'd be perfect.

[Chinook]

The Atlanta 25 pick is the Spurs best trade asset because it's a likely lottery pick, unprotected, in what's expected to be a very strong draft and would convey soon.

It's not necessarily a lotto pick. The Hawks will have nothing to tank for next year (this year, they chose to accept a tank because they could keep their pick), and multiple other teams will have an incentive to tank just as they did for 2023. So even if they stay the same, the bottom half of the league will be worse. Young's most likely trade window would be in 2025-2026 from July to Feburary. That's when the Hawks would be at real risk of bottoming out whether they want to or not and why the 2026 and 2027 picks could easily be more valuable. It doesn't hurt that 2026 has the Boozer twins rather than just Flagg, meaning there's a higher chance of getting one.


Keldon has already shown he can't play with Wemby which is why he was rightfully demoted to the bench in favor of a guy who should be an eighth or ninth man in a playoff team's rotation at best in Champagnie, and his trade value is likely to only decrease from here on out.

Who cares? You don't trade players because they suck. That you think Keldon has little value but should be used to bring in a mentor is another way of saying you want a mentor for cheap. You can want that, sure. But we aren't disagreeing on the value difference between the two, like you might be assuming.


That pick is way too important to give away for a stopgap.

It's not a stop gap. Next year is important, even though it's quite unlikely to end with a deep playoff run. The point of Middleton and Portis is to level the young guys up, not to take up space. Getting Wemby to something close to his final form is the path to a title, which is facilitated by a support structure. Pretending his already there and blowing assets on lesser win-now pieces is a slower path.


I don't know why you're so against Trae who would instantly solve our PG problem and be someone they could still build longterm around.

The Spurs are building around Wemby long term. That's going to mean rotating in multiple supporting casts. I don't think it's wise at all to value Young beyond what he will provide on his current contract. His age is a hindrance here, not a help. The Spurs have never been a team that's won titles with stars who are all the same age. Most winning teams don't have that either. There are better win-now and win-later pathways than Young, Mitchell and Markkanen.


Then the Spurs could use their own picks plus the MLE in future years to try to find rotation players to put around Wemby, Trae, and hopefully Vassell. And that 25 pick could really be incredible if the Hawks panic and say trade Trae to the Lakers for their picks and Reaves; then we could be talking top 5.

You say that like it's an opportunity rather than a sentence. The Spurs would be restricted to lesser means to fill out their roster. They lock themselves into a core way too soon or let Young walk and have pissed away those assets for a worse version of Middleton.

You seem to be relying on the Hawks making an awful trade at the worst team but then passing that off like it's a reasonable outcome. If the Hawks have their 2025 pick, they might do that, which means the 2026 and 2027 picks legit gain a boost. If they don't have their pick, they probably don't make a panic move in the middle of the season, because they're likely to get back worse picks.


And #22 in this draft, gross.

Players are not dice.

[mo7888]

It's not necessarily a lotto pick. The Hawks will have nothing to tank for next year (this year, they chose to accept a tank because they could keep their pick), and multiple other teams will have an incentive to tank just as they did for 2023. So even if they stay the same, the bottom half of the league will be worse. Young's most likely trade window would be in 2025-2026 from July to Feburary. That's when the Hawks would be at real risk of bottoming out whether they want to or not and why the 2026 and 2027 picks could easily be more valuable. It doesn't hurt that 2026 has the Boozer twins rather than just Flagg, meaning there's a higher chance of getting one.



Who cares? You don't trade players because they suck. That you think Keldon has little value but should be used to bring in a mentor is another way of saying you want a mentor for cheap. You can want that, sure. But we aren't disagreeing on the value difference between the two, like you might be assuming.



It's not a stop gap. Next year is important, even though it's quite unlikely to end with a deep playoff run. The point of Middleton and Portis is to level the young guys up, not to take up space. Getting Wemby to something close to his final form is the path to a title, which is facilitated by a support structure. Pretending his already there and blowing assets on lesser win-now pieces is a slower path.



The Spurs are building around Wemby long term. That's going to mean rotating in multiple supporting casts. I don't think it's wise at all to value Young beyond what he will provide on his current contract. His age is a hindrance here, not a help. The Spurs have never been a team that's won titles with stars who are all the same age. Most winning teams don't have that either. There are better win-now and win-later pathways than Young, Mitchell and Markkanen.



You say that like it's an opportunity rather than a sentence. The Spurs would be restricted to lesser means to fill out their roster. They lock themselves into a core way too soon or let Young walk and have pissed away those assets for a worse version of Middleton.

You seem to be relying on the Hawks making an awful trade at the worst team but then passing that off like it's a reasonable outcome. If the Hawks have their 2025 pick, they might do that, which means the 2026 and 2027 picks legit gain a boost. If they don't have their pick, they probably don't make a panic move in the middle of the season, because they're likely to get back worse picks.



Players are not dice.

To your point about the 26 draft, it also has AJ Dybantsa at the top...

[baseline bum]

It's not necessarily a lotto pick. The Hawks will have nothing to tank for next year (this year, they chose to accept a tank because they could keep their pick), and multiple other teams will have an incentive to tank just as they did for 2023. So even if they stay the same, the bottom half of the league will be worse. Young's most likely trade window would be in 2025-2026 from July to Feburary. That's when the Hawks would be at real risk of bottoming out whether they want to or not and why the 2026 and 2027 picks could easily be more valuable. It doesn't hurt that 2026 has the Boozer twins rather than just Flagg, meaning there's a higher chance of getting one.


I don't buy this year was a tank for them. But fine, they might be an 8-seed in a really bad case scenario where they bring the band back and you draft #15 in what's expected to be a really solid draft. I think it's more likely they keep being a team with poor chemistry frustrated with each other and you end up with a mid to late lottery pick instead. Or maybe you get lucky and they have injuries or panic and trade Trae to the Lakers for Reaves and picks and you're in the Cooper Flagg / Ace Bailey hunt with that pick.




Who cares? You don't trade players because they suck. That you think Keldon has little value but should be used to bring in a mentor is another way of saying you want a mentor for cheap. You can want that, sure. But we aren't disagreeing on the value difference between the two, like you might be assuming.


Yes, I want to trade assets not very useful to this team as opposed to assets that are critically important to put talent around Victor.



It's not a stop gap. Next year is important, even though it's quite unlikely to end with a deep playoff run. The point of Middleton and Portis is to level the young guys up, not to take up space. Getting Wemby to something close to his final form is the path to a title, which is facilitated by a support structure. Pretending his already there and blowing assets on lesser win-now pieces is a slower path.


It's an expensive trade to make. What makes you think Middleton is going to turn Holland into Kawhi? And Portis, the guy who beat his teammate's ass in practice and sent him to the hospital? He's going to level up the young guys? Plus Middleton has one year remaining on his deal before he can opt out, and he surely will with the cap likely to jump a good amount from a new TV/streaming deal in 25-26. So you either give a big raise to the 34 year old or you let him walk and then you really have pissed a great asset away for little in return.



The Spurs are building around Wemby long term. That's going to mean rotating in multiple supporting casts. I don't think it's wise at all to value Young beyond what he will provide on his current contract. His age is a hindrance here, not a help. The Spurs have never been a team that's won titles with stars who are all the same age. Most winning teams don't have that either. There are better win-now and win-later pathways than Young, Mitchell and Markkanen.


So don't put a talented PG next to Wemby because he'll grow his game better in a bottom tier offense? How is being 25 a hindrance for Young? It means he's still probably in his prime as Victor begins hitting his and you hopefully built up some real chemistry by the time Wemby is a top 5 player in the league. Also can't sell short how excited Young would likely be to play here given he grew up a Spurs fan and the way he raves about Wemby to the media every chance he gets.

And the bolded part? Tim is like a year older than Manu.



You say that like it's an opportunity rather than a sentence. The Spurs would be restricted to lesser means to fill out their roster. They lock themselves into a core way too soon or let Young walk and have pissed away those assets for a worse version of Middleton.


So lock themselves into 34 year-old Middleton instead in the summer of 25? Or let him walk and pray cap space gets you someone?



You seem to be relying on the Hawks making an awful trade at the worst team but then passing that off like it's a reasonable outcome. If the Hawks have their 2025 pick, they might do that, which means the 2026 and 2027 picks legit gain a boost. If they don't have their pick, they probably don't make a panic move in the middle of the season, because they're likely to get back worse picks.


I don't think it's an awful trade for a team going nowhere that gets a chance to blow it up and tank for what look to be two very strong drafts. Something like the ATL 25+27, ripping up the 26 swap, and the Chicago 25 pick plus salary is way better than they're likely to get anywhere else.



Players are not dice.

Draft picks in the 20s are absolutely rolls of the dice, and especially in a weak draft. Looks like they rolled snake eyes with Branham and Wesley for example.

[scott]

I don't buy this year was a tank for them. But fine, they might be an 8-seed in a really bad case scenario where they bring the band back and you draft #15 in what's expected to be a really solid draft.

One important note... you're saying that pick #15 in next year's "strong draft" will be valuable, but next year is only considered a strong draft because of Flagg and Bailey at the top. From 3-15, it may in fact end up being utter shit, we just don't know yet. This year was actually supposed to be a strong year for PG prospects, but a lot of the top names (Collier, Wagner, Proctor) just ended up not living up to expectations. So I think the basic idea that maybe you're better off trading a potential #15 next year (ATL25) for Middleton, Portis and #22 this year isn't all that bad. If that ATL25 ends up being a top 2 pick however, then you're going to have some regrets of course.

I don't think Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557)'s idea is all that bad from a value perspective, I just don't like it because Middleton is a little TOO ripe on the vine for my liking AND I don't want 3 FRPs this year. I'm less concerned about Middleton opting out as I am him opting in, tbh. I think that $33MM in 2025-26 is going to be well above his market value at that point and he'll opt in and you're stuck with an old guy not worth his salary for a year.

[baseline bum]

One important note... you're saying that pick #15 in next year's "strong draft" will be valuable, but next year is only considered a strong draft because of Flagg and Bailey at the top. From 3-15, it may in fact end up being utter shit, we just don't know yet. This year was actually supposed to be a strong year for PG prospects, but a lot of the top names (Collier, Wagner, Proctor) just ended up not living up to expectations. So I think the basic idea that maybe you're better off trading a potential #15 next year (ATL25) for Middleton, Portis and #22 this year isn't all that bad. If that ATL25 ends up being a top 2 pick however, then you're going to have some regrets of course.

I don't think Chinook (https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557)'s idea is all that bad from a value perspective, I just don't like it because Middleton is a little TOO ripe on the vine for my liking AND I don't want 3 FRPs this year. I'm less concerned about Middleton opting out as I am him opting in, tbh. I think that $33MM in 2025-26 is going to be well above his market value at that point and he'll opt in and you're stuck with an old guy not worth his salary for a year.

Are you not expecting a jump in the cap from a new TV/streaming deal kicking in the year he can opt out? My expectation is a new contract for Middleton would close most of the gap with the money Young has due that people are scared of. I mean Van Vleet got Trae Young money last summer.

And I have #15 as a worst case scenario for that pick. I expect the Atlanta 2025 pick to be better than Holland or Cody Williams or Jakobe Walter who would be the player Middleton would supposedly be brought in to mentor. If you can get Middleton for Keldon and change by all means I'd be for it but I don't want to give up such a great asset in the Atlanta 25 unprotected pick for a guy who is past his prime and seems to be injured a lot. That's not going to get any better with age.

Anyways, pooling lottery picks is how you can trade for stars and I don't want to peel one off, probably the best one off, just for Middleton.

[timtonymanu]

Anything but “run back the same 22 win team.” Knowing pop though, we’re giving extensions to sochan and calling it an offseason.

[timtonymanu]

There are zero people I still want on this team in two years time. Get rid of half this season and the other half next season. None of the starters on our team fits with Wemby. They are either not good enough (in Jones and Champ) too one dimensional in Vassell, or just undersized and not skilled at enough in Sochan.And too those idiots who claim to "wait and see," I will permaban myself if any of those players make an all-star team in our jersey. He is surrounded by bad basketball players. It doesn't help that they are too dumb to know how to play too.

As far as our bench go, Collins, Graham, and Mumu have to go. Tbh we could replace all our bench too and I would be ok with that. But if you want to wait on Branham and Wesley to somehow miraculously learn how to play basketball to where they would actually be useful on a winning team, it won't happen, then we can keep them for one more season. But again they will be gone in two years as well.

So my team is Wemby, FRP, FRP and that's it.

Also ideal is Pop is fired. The dude can't coach anymore. He's lost whatever it was that made him a good coach. You can still be very knowledgeable and be bad at coaching. It happens to older coaches all the time. He has no idea how to connect with this team to teach them how to do anything positive

These idiots keep comparing our young guys to Manu like they’re gonna break out without realizing Manu was already fundamentally talented.

[MultiTroll]

I just don't like it because Middleton is a little TOO ripe on the vine for my liking AND I don't want 3 FRPs this year. I'm less concerned about Middleton opting out as I am him opting in, tbh. I think that $33MM in 2025-26 is going to be well above his market value at that point and he'll opt in and you're stuck with an old guy not worth his salary for a year.
Followed Middleton for years. His Championship was definitely the apex and he's been injured / declining ever since.
Short of some Kobme / Lebron level PEDs and Lebron/Brady level dieting, he will continue to decline.

I don't buy the mentorship thing at all. Who the hell mentored this years Spurs to NOT throw a farking pass that a 9 year old could do?

Timmy Dunks, GNob and Parker occasionally if not often are around and yet look at the ish that took place.

That having been said, yes i would take Middleton for 1 year only, next season. He fills about 5 needs the Spurs are lacking in. If he could give 20 minutes per game either starting or coming off the bench would be very helpful.

[scott]

Are you not expecting a jump in the cap from a new TV/streaming deal kicking in the year he can opt out? My expectation is a new contract for Middleton would close most of the gap with the money Young has due that people are scared of. I mean Van Vleet got Trae Young money last summer.

And I have #15 as a worst case scenario for that pick. I expect the Atlanta 2025 pick to be better than Holland or Cody Williams or Jakobe Walter who would be the player Middleton would supposedly be brought in to mentor. If you can get Middleton for Keldon and change by all means I'd be for it but I don't want to give up such a great asset in the Atlanta 25 unprotected pick for a guy who is past his prime and seems to be injured a lot. That's not going to get any better with age.

Anyways, pooling lottery picks is how you can trade for stars and I don't want to peel one off, probably the best one off, just for Middleton.

I think whatever new TV/streaming deal to come is already priced into the salary cap. IIRC, the maximum per-year increase in the cap is 10% per the new CBA, so even if the cap maxes out at $155MM, Middleton's opt-in will be 21.29% of the cap. I personally do not think 34-year old Khris Middleton is going to do better than his $33MM opt-in number (21.29% of the cap).

Even if the Atlanta pick projects at number 8 (12.3% chance at a top-2 pick), my point is that we don't know that 2025's draft will be any stronger than this year's after pick 2 (and even then, we are still just projecting though we have a fairly strong degree of confidence). So I wouldn't simply assume that a pick next year is better than a pick this year. A lot of folks (not you, per se) have said they'd rather the TOR pick convey next year when it will be a stronger draft... but picks 7 and onward may be just as terrible as this year's. We don't know.

[baseline bum]

I think whatever new TV/streaming deal to come is already priced into the salary cap. IIRC, the maximum per-year increase in the cap is 10% per the new CBA, so even if the cap maxes out at $155MM, Middleton's opt-in will be 21.29% of the cap. I personally do not think 34-year old Khris Middleton is going to do better than his $33MM opt-in number (21.29% of the cap).

Even if the Atlanta pick projects at number 8 (12.3% chance at a top-2 pick), my point is that we don't know that 2025's draft will be any stronger than this year's after pick 2 (and even then, we are still just projecting though we have a fairly strong degree of confidence). So I wouldn't simply assume that a pick next year is better than a pick this year. A lot of folks (not you, per se) have said they'd rather the TOR pick convey next year when it will be a stronger draft... but picks 7 and onward may be just as terrible as this year's. We don't know.

IDK the FVV contract gets me thinking there will be good money on the market for Middleton in 25 with a ~15% higher salary cap than FVV signed under.

I'm conditioning on this looking to be the shittiest draft since at least 2013, but probably even worse with no one who looks to be an enormous upside swing like Giannis was that year. I mean is there anyone in this draft you have any excitement about? Dillingham is it for me, but I expect there is no way in hell the Spurs will take him since they like drafting big PGs in the first ever since George Hill.

[Chinook]

I don't buy this year was a tank for them. But fine, they might be an 8-seed in a really bad case scenario where they bring the band back and you draft #15 in what's expected to be a really solid draft. I think it's more likely they keep being a team with poor chemistry frustrated with each other and you end up with a mid to late lottery pick instead. Or maybe you get lucky and they have injuries or panic and trade Trae to the Lakers for Reaves and picks and you're in the Cooper Flagg / Ace Bailey hunt with that pick.

Eh, I had a response typed, but it was just getting silly how long it was. I think we're at the point were we're both dug into our positions, and unless something happens to actually make the debate relevant, we will just go back and forth on something not likely to matter.

[DAF86]

-If the Raptors' pick conveys, I want to end up with a PG/wing combo of Dillingham/Sheppard and Risacher/Buzellis.

-Draft Ulrich Chomche with the second round pick.

-Sign Royce O'neale.

-Convince Batum to play one more season so that he can team-up with the eventual French GOAT.

Depth chart:

-Tre / Dilly-Sheppard / Wesley
-Vassell / Keldon / Branham
-Risacher-Buzellis / O'Neale / Champaigne
-Sochan / Batum / Chomche
-Wemby / Collins / Barlow

Just go into next season and see if the improvement shown at the end is for real. Keep your options open for a midseason or 2025 offseason splash.

[TDMVPDPOY]

mike conley anyone? vet pg

[skin27]

mike conley anyone? vet pg
Its better to pick dillingham or topic

[tbdog]

mike conley anyone? vet pg

Signed a no trade clause extension

[CGD]

Anything but “run back the same 22 win team.” Knowing pop though, we’re giving extensions to sochan and calling it an offseason.

I’m all for the improvements, but I’m also encouraged that the Spurs had a record of 11-16 after the All-Star Game. Obviously we can’t project that it will carry over neatly into the next year, but adding a few pick and pieces around the edges could get them in the mix for the play-in. That, while holding their powder dry for a right trade down the road.

Seems like a smart goal for next year.

[Pauleta14]

-If the Raptors' pick conveys, I want to end up with a PG/wing combo of Dillingham/Sheppard and Risacher/Buzellis.

-Draft Ulrich Chomche with the second round pick.

-Sign Royce O'neale.

-Convince Batum to play one more season so that he can team-up with the eventual French GOAT.

Depth chart:

-Tre / Dilly-Sheppard / Wesley
-Vassell / Keldon / Branham
-Risacher-Buzellis / O'Neale / Champaigne
-Sochan / Batum / Chomche
-Wemby / Collins / Barlow

Just go into next season and see if the improvement shown at the end is for real. Keep your options open for a midseason or 2025 offseason splash.

Bring Brogdon instead of Wesley (can play 1-2, mentor and shoot the 3)

Bring a real defensive big instead of Barlow. Collins is un-tradable, could be better offensively but will alwaya suck on D. We need inside presence wehn Vic is on the bench

Batum is my hope for months but his hype has gone way up with his game vs the Heat. They already love him in Philly so it'll be tough imo

[DAF86]

I’m all for the improvements, but I’m also encouraged that the Spurs had a record of 11-16 after the All-Star Game. Obviously we can’t project that it will carry over neatly into the next year, but adding a few pick and pieces around the edges could get them in the mix for the play-in. That, while holding their powder dry for a right trade down the road.

Seems like a smart goal for next year.

This past season's record was hindered by Pop playing mad scientist to start the season, Wemby's minutes restriction, and just blatant tanking at the end.

Just playing Wemby around 35 minutes should increase the victories. Also, the lineup of Tre, Vassell, Keldon, Sochan and Wemby was the 5th best in the entire league at some point. The Spurs' record should be a lot better just by Pop playing the right rotation. Add lottery talent and a couple of veterans to the mix and, yeah, I think that would provide all the improvement you need to see from year 1 to year 2, while giving you more time to really assess how to build a serious contender in the near future, instead of rushing the process and giving up vital assets to build a pretender sooner.

[baseline bum]

This past season's record was hindered by Pop playing mad scientist to start the season, Wemby's minutes restriction, and just blatant tanking at the end.

Just playing Wemby around 35 minutes should increase the victories. Also, the lineup of Tre, Vassell, Keldon, Sochan and Wemby was the 5th best in the entire league at some point. The Spurs' record should be a lot better just by Pop playing the right rotation. Add lottery talent and a couple of veterans to the mix and, yeah, I think that would provide all the improvement you need to see from year 1 to year 2, while giving you more time to really assess how to build a contender in the near future.

The blatant tanking at the end might have helped the record since no more Vassell and Keldon calling their own numbers :lol

[DAF86]

The blatant tanking at the end might have helped the record since no more Vassell and Keldon calling their own numbers :lol

You skipped the part where those players were part of the 5th best lineup in the NBA at some point, tbh.

[baseline bum]

You skipped the part where those players were part of the 5th best lineup in the NBA at some point, tbh.

What point was that? Keldon looked terrible next to Wemby. Vassell was playing great defense early on but seemed to get lazy on it by 30 games into the season.

[DAF86]

What point was that? Keldon looked terrible next to Wemby. Vassell was playing great defense early on but seemed to get lazy on it by 30 games into the season.

Don't remember exactly, but it was well into the season, past the all-star break.

[spurraider21]

-If the Raptors' pick conveys, I want to end up with a PG/wing combo of Dillingham/Sheppard and Risacher/Buzellis.

-Draft Ulrich Chomche with the second round pick.

-Sign Royce O'neale.

-Convince Batum to play one more season so that he can team-up with the eventual French GOAT.

Depth chart:

-Tre / Dilly-Sheppard / Wesley
-Vassell / Keldon / Branham
-Risacher-Buzellis / O'Neale / Champaigne
-Sochan / Batum / Chomche
-Wemby / Collins / Barlow

Just go into next season and see if the improvement shown at the end is for real. Keep your options open for a midseason or 2025 offseason splash.
i agree with all the bolded, though i know you wont like it, i'd add Holland to the list of wings.

im not as crazy about O'Neale as others, but he'd be fine. batum would be awesome on a one year deal but i dont see it happening.

[MVPCues]

I can't help myself....
Sign Boban to a final 1 year vet min contract...and then do what you experts collectively say.

[DAF86]

i agree with all the bolded, though i know you wont like it, i'd add Holland to the list of wings.

im not as crazy about O'Neale as others, but he'd be fine. batum would be awesome on a one year deal but i dont see it happening.

I'm far from crazy about O'Neale, tbh. He just seems like the only reasonable 3 and D guy available, now that Allen is off the table.

[TD 21]

I'm far from crazy about O'Neale, tbh. He just seems like the only reasonable 3 and D guy available, now that Allen is off the table.

Caleb Martin, Naji Marshall and Gary Harris.

[NASpurs]

Do they downgrade the server during the summer and pay for the better package during the season? :lol Replace the hamster in the fall.

Site is so slow.

[spurraider21]

Do they downgrade the server during the summer and pay for the better package during the season? :lol Replace the hamster in the fall.

Site is so slow.
just wait till the draft lotto

[SPURt]

Wemby stays healthy through the Olympics and training camp. I’m cool with anything else.

[Ignazzz]

Whats about:
spurs: Fox and fillers maybe 1st 24 from Kings ( swap if top 3)
Hax: draft capital from Hax/spurs, Keldon, fillers
kings: Young and High pick 2024 from spurs ( with hope top 3)

[CorrectCrusader]

What do we have to do to get Jonathan Isaac

[LeBowen]

Watching this game got me into full overreaction mode and I'd give up two mediocre FRPs for Naz Reid.
As good as it gets for Wemby's frontcourt partner if we talk role players and not star forwards.

[spursince#99]

Get Pat Williams through sign & trade. Keldon and their top 10 protected 1st should get it done. Then draft Kyshawn George.

[MultiTroll]

koriwhat receiving proper tattoo removing training.

Then helping the SA community by providing safe, quality removals at select Spurs games.

[JPB]

Chet and OKC thriving in the POs pust even more on the enormous pressure spurs have to build a PO team around Wemby this summer already.

It's OK, first year Wemby could shock the world and show his incredible talent independently of the losing (he had to do a lot for that, tho). But spurs have to play meaningfull games as soon as next year or people won't care that much and it's not gonna look good for the media, the fans, and first of all for Victor to see him do his thing in another losing season...

Vic wants to break records and make history, and there's no better place than the POs for that, where it really matters, when champions write their legend and legacy. Wemby's not gonnna watch for the next 2 or 3 years Chet and other stars make history while spurs are trying to develop an army of no name rookies, having to deal with Wesleys, Champagnies, Branhams or Barlows... Just adding one or two rookies this June, plus a couple of vets this summer is not gonna do it. And he solution isn't putting Devonte' Graham and Mamu in the starting lineup next year.

Trade for Trae or Dejounte add another couple vets (and draft Risacher or another wing if you can).

[TD 21]

I keep hearing from the apologists/homers that the Thunder, who lucked into Gilgeous-Alexander and Holmgren (if you want to give them credit for Williams, fine, but if given truth serum, they'd probably admit they didn't think he'd be this good, at least this soon), are an ideal template because they took a slow, steady approach.

In reality, like most things in sports, they fell ass backwards into it.

Gilgeous-Alexander was thought to have All-Star, not MVP potential. Him initially being the former allowed them to organically do what they did and do so without pressure to accelerate it.

This is a completely different situation and I can't recall a similar one where an organization attempted to treat it otherwise.

[Ariel]

I keep hearing from the apologists/homers that the Thunder, who lucked into Gilgeous-Alexander and Holmgren (if you want to give them credit for Williams, fine, but if given truth serum, they'd probably admit they didn't think he'd be this good, at least this soon), are an ideal template because they took a slow, steady approach.

In reality, like most things in sports, they fell ass backwards into it.

Gilgeous-Alexander was thought to have All-Star, not MVP potential. Him initially being the former allowed them to organically do what they did and do so without pressure to accelerate it.

This is a completely different situation and I can't recall a similar one where an organization attempted to treat it otherwise.
That shouldn't take any credit away from OKC, they may not have known just how good SGA (and JDubb) would become, but neither did Denver with Jokic, Milwaukee with Giannis, or even the Spurs with Manu. But they hit on the best players on the board, and from that point on you just develop and hope for the best.

The obvious comparisons for the Spurs current situation are Dallas post Doncid, and Cleveland post LeBron. Both tried to speed it up too much, both got burnt. Clearly the Spurs have to do SOMETHING, but they better think twice before they pull the trigger on any blockbuster, because a couple bad moves may be all it takes and it's all downhill from there.

[paperboy77]

But if we can dream on good lottery results:

1. Trade our pick, the Toronto pick, the Dallas swap, Keldon, and Graham for Mikal Bridges
2. Trade Atlanta back their 2025 and 2027 picks, rip up the 2026 swap, plus the Chicago pick and Zollins and Bassey for Trae Young
3. Retain Champagnie, Mamu, Barlow on cheap deals

Ten man rotation could be:

PG: Young/Jones
SG: Vassell/Branham
SF: Bridges/Champagnie
PF: Sochan/Mamu
C: Wemby/Barlow

Then 2025 focus on getting some bigman depth with the MLE.

Hell yeah I'll take that. I hate to see Champ back BUT..... Bridges is like just under 40-minute type guy so Champ would not be important.

[Silverheart80]

If we're talking "ideal" off-season....

1) Get the #1 pick again in the Lottery. And if we don't get it on May 12th -- trade up and get it without using any ATL draft assets.

Ideal package would be our Lottery pick + Vassell, straight up. Addition by subtraction. Spurs will never be more than .500 with Vassell as a 2nd or 3rd option. He doesn't create a mismatch advantage on his own. He doesn't have it between the ears.

Use the #1 to draft Alexandre Sarr. Mismatches win playoff series. He creates another mismatch advantage every night along with Victor. Run those two in high-low game + pick and roll. Keep developing Sarr's long-range shot mechanics, which leads to....

2) Hire a better shooting coach. Ideally -- Chris Jent, Lebron's longtime shooting coach, currently with the Lakers, who will hopefully soon be in disarray if they get swept.

3) Agree with baseline bum -- retain Mamu and Barlow on cheap deals. Not attached to Champagnie at all.

4) Do not make long-term, high-salary, free agency panic moves. Especially for players who are defensive liabilities like Trae Young.

5) Hope the Celtics win the ring and that DWhite plays a big part in it. Need a veteran mentor with a recent ring under their belt. Would love to see him return to the Spurs in 2025, if not sooner.

[JPB]

That shouldn't take any credit away from OKC, they may not have known just how good SGA (and JDubb) would become, but neither did Denver with Jokic, Milwaukee with Giannis, or even the Spurs with Manu. But they hit on the best players on the board, and from that point on you just develop and hope for the best.

The obvious comparisons for the Spurs current situation are Dallas post Doncid, and Cleveland post LeBron. Both tried to speed it up too much, both got burnt. Clearly the Spurs have to do SOMETHING, but they better think twice before they pull the trigger on any blockbuster, because a couple bad moves may be all it takes and it's all downhill from there.

I suppose you meant Dallas post Dirk, but it's 2024 and none of these teams had Victor, a kid who arguably put the best rookie season in history, may be named DPOTY this year and compete for first all NBA team next one, if not MVP. Not to mention Vic's ambitions and mindset.

It makes sense waiting if you don't have your future franchise player or he's still 3-5 year away from reaching top 10 player level. there's no point in waiting, just for the sake of it or "wisdom" when Wemby will be just that next season. It's actually counter-productive and you're hurting Victor's development, not giving him a team he deserves and needs to reach his full potential with high caliber players around him.

It's not just about the spurs, it's also about Wemby. This is Victor's world here. Let's not fool ourselves believing Vic is quietly gonna eat whatever spurs decide to do and be OK waiting 4 years to make the POs, playng with third stringers, borderline NBA players and rooks who will take 4-5 years to develop into whatever they will, then 7 years to contend... He won't...

POs spots ain't cheap in the West, even for an average team, missing them next year would put the spurs under enormous pressure. Not sure losing picks just for a couple of rental vets for 2 years who won't move that much the needle is the way to go. And you have no guarantees waiting is gonna put in you in a better place regarding available stars.

[Pauleta14]

That shouldn't take any credit away from OKC, they may not have known just how good SGA (and JDubb) would become, but neither did Denver with Jokic, Milwaukee with Giannis, or even the Spurs with Manu. But they hit on the best players on the board, and from that point on you just develop and hope for the best.

The obvious comparisons for the Spurs current situation are Dallas post Doncid, and Cleveland post LeBron. Both tried to speed it up too much, both got burnt. Clearly the Spurs have to do SOMETHING, but they better think twice before they pull the trigger on any blockbuster, because a couple bad moves may be all it takes and it's all downhill from there.

I get your points like most but I genuinely don't get it.

We keep comparing very diff situations, timmings, rosters, eras, markets etc

It makes no sense...

Most comparisons are closer to correlations than causations and too many "chance" factors that can't be transposed

Not only there aren't any comparable rookie since maybe Shaq but Spurs's roster, draft capital, floor, needs etc have zero comparisons in the past or with other franchises past situations.

Basically anyone can find "arguments" to support any strategy lol. It's absurd

Whatever your prefered strategy is there isn't a past one that can support it imho

[JPB]

I get your points like most but I genuinely don't get it.

We keep comparing very diff situations, timmings, rosters, eras, markets etc

It makes no sense...

Most comparisons are closer to correlations than causations and too many "chance" factors that can't be transposed

Not only there aren't any comparable rookie since maybe Shaq but Spurs's roster, draft capital, floor, needs etc have zero comparisons in the past or with other franchises past situations.

Basically anyone can find "arguments" to support any strategy lol. It's absurd

Whatever your prefered strategy is there isn't a past one that can support it imho

I also respect any opinion but I agree that the "this is the way it should be done no matter what" argument, independently of context and situation both for the spurs, Wemby and the NBA, isn't a legit one for me either.

Even if I precisely disagree, I prefer people telling me they believe It's too early to help Wemby now, he's not ready, he should keep develping among rookies and role players the next 4 years, this isn't important to make the POs and really compete now, or just adding more rookies and a couple vets, this team is a surefire PO team anyway, and there will necessarily be great opportunities to sign the "right" star in a few years... than we just shouldn't hurry things because that's not the way it should be done in a vaccum and this team or that team did it and failed (without having a Wemby).

Unique player, unique situation, unique flexibility for the spurs, unique NBA, unique decisions.

[Ariel]

I suppose you meant Dallas post Dirk, but it's 2024 and none of these teams had Victor, a kid who arguably put the best rookie season in history, may be named DPOTY this year and compete for first all NBA team next one, if not MVP. Not to mention Vic's ambitions and mindset.

It makes sense waiting if you don't have your future franchise player or he's still 3-5 year away from reaching top 10 player level. there's no point in waiting, just for the sake of it or "wisdom" when Wemby will be just that next season. It's actually counter-productive and you're hurting Victor's development, not giving him a team he deserves and needs to reach his full potential with high caliber players around him.

It's not just about the spurs, it's also about Wemby. This is Victor's world here. Let's not fool ourselves believing Vic is quietly gonna eat whatever spurs decide to do and be OK waiting 4 years to make the POs, playng with third stringers, borderline NBA players and rooks who will take 4-5 years to develop into whatever they will, then 7 years to contend... He won't...

POs spots ain't cheap in the West, even for an average team, missing them next year would put the spurs under enormous pressure. Not sure losing picks just for a couple of rental vets for 2 years who won't move that much the needle is the way to go. And you have no guarantees waiting is gonna put in you in a better place regarding available stars.
I wasn't clear, I meant Clevelant post DRAFTING LeBron and Dallas post DRAFTING Luka (there isn't a post Luka Dallas -yet-, obviously), in the sense that they were bad teams that found themselves with an All NBA player overnight (or close enough). Both teams tried to speed up the process and made bad decisions which set them back and in Cleveland's case ultimately led to LeBron leaving after his rookie extension.

Now, I have said over and over, that I DON'T think the Spurs should stand pat and hard tank again, in fact even last offseason I wanted to trade for a PG (called for trading for Malcom Brogdon or Monte Morris at least) and another rim protector and some shooting, and was against the "Sochan experiment", Victor and the rest of the young core should have a solid structure behind them so that they can develop properly. If you do all three of those then I think the team drastically changes and is probably fighting for the play in and winning about 35/40 games.

What I am against is going "all in" overpaying for fringe/flawed stars that will help stat pad in the regular season but likely set your ceiling in the playoffs as well. Case in point, the Trae Young proposals that have the Spurs sending Atlanta back all their picks plus some more, or overpaying for Mikal Bridges who isn't really a star and has 2 more years before he'll require a huge pay raise, or getting Khris Middleton, etc. The Spurs can get better right now without the need to go that far, and wait for a better opportunity that really gives the Spurs a real chance as soon as the season after next. My real target would be '25 free agency that has a lot of interesting players whose current situation isn't set in stone (Donovan Mitchell, Markkanen, Derrick White, etc). Also, the next 2 drafts are supposed to be loaded, and I would hesitate to burn all those picks right now for a 2 year improvement that may then plateau.

So to be clear, there's a middle way between "hard tank for 3 more years" and "burn the war chest of picks right now", and that's where I am right now. Do whatever improvements are cost efficient RIGHT NOW: Brodgon would cost the Spurs what, 2 2nd riound picks? See if you can trade down or away and poach a young vet from a tanking team (say Avdija from Washington, Simons from Portland, etc), and keep your powder dry when an opportunity presents itself, or go all out in '25 free agency. My goal would be making the play in next season and the playoffs (6th seed or better and advance at least one round) the one following.

[Ariel]

I get your points like most but I genuinely don't get it.

We keep comparing very diff situations, timmings, rosters, eras, markets etc

It makes no sense...

Most comparisons are closer to correlations than causations and too many "chance" factors that can't be transposed

Not only there aren't any comparable rookie since maybe Shaq but Spurs's roster, draft capital, floor, needs etc have zero comparisons in the past or with other franchises past situations.

Basically anyone can find "arguments" to support any strategy lol. It's absurd

Whatever your prefered strategy is there isn't a past one that can support it imho
Yes, if you're looking for an exact match, there obviously isn't one. So the best you can do is find reasonable comparisons and learn some lessons from them. When I look at past blockbuster trades, the common trend is they all end up in gross overpays and buyer's remorse (Durant to Phoenix, Harden to Brooklyn, Paul George to the Clippers, etc). Trades that work best are usually opportunistic (like Aaron Gordon to Denver, Derrick White or Porzingis to Boston, etc) and make sense all around. If Trae Young costs what is being proposed here (4+ likely lottery picks + youngsters) then I think the Spurs can do better than that by being a little patient and I don't mean YEARS.

[Pauleta14]

Unique player, unique situation, unique flexibility for the spurs, unique NBA, unique decisions.

This should always be kept in mind imo

Every rules have exceptions and Wemby is the definition of one.

[Pauleta14]

Yes, if you're looking for an exact match, there obviously isn't one. So the best you can do is find reasonable comparisons and learn some lessons from them. When I look at past blockbuster trades, the common trend is they all end up in gross overpays and buyer's remorse (Durant to Phoenix, Harden to Brooklyn, Paul George to the Clippers, etc). Trades that work best are usually opportunistic (like Aaron Gordon to Denver, Derrick White or Porzingis to Boston, etc) and make sense all around. If Trae Young costs what is being proposed here (4+ likely lottery picks + youngsters) then I think the Spurs can do better than that by being a little patient and I don't mean YEARS.

But why? Why would you put blinders on something that has to comparison?

Actually if you search you can find countless contradictives (and misleading) examples!

Just use common sense and the data/infos (that presently tell us not to use past examples in a way^^) we have without over speculating on what we don't control.

It's not just Wemby that is different, it's the Spurs's floor compared to most teams that aquired that type of rookie in the past, had

It's the specific draft capital that Spurs have

It's not just about the Spurs present situation but what's happening and will happen around the league. Like unpredictable opportunities that you have to be ready (not scared of ) to jump on

All these points have nothing to do with the past. I get where's you're at but I really think we're overrating/using examples from the past.

They're often misleading and subject to confusion between correlations and real causations.

[baseline bum]

That shouldn't take any credit away from OKC, they may not have known just how good SGA (and JDubb) would become, but neither did Denver with Jokic, Milwaukee with Giannis, or even the Spurs with Manu. But they hit on the best players on the board, and from that point on you just develop and hope for the best.

The obvious comparisons for the Spurs current situation are Dallas post Doncid, and Cleveland post LeBron. Both tried to speed it up too much, both got burnt. Clearly the Spurs have to do SOMETHING, but they better think twice before they pull the trigger on any blockbuster, because a couple bad moves may be all it takes and it's all downhill from there.

I don't get this Cleveland tried to speed it up narrative. Cleveland fucked it all up by losing Carlos Boozer when the owner thought he could trick him into signing a below market value contract. And right before that making their own Primo pick in Luke Jackson. Then the next year the Larry Hughes signing was disastrous. None of those things were Cleveland trading future for present.

[LeBowen]

Tanking would be idioitc because Wemby is already too good and I have no doubt that he'll be even better when the next season starts.
Pistons, Wizards, Portland are guaranteed to be garbage again. If Wemby is healthy, there's no way Spurs are worse than them.
Nets and Raptors are a mess, Spurs were clearly better than them at the end of the season. Yeah, they shut some players down and tried to tank, but they don't have enough talent.
Hornets have talent, but are a joke and always find a way to implode.

That's 6 bad teams already.
Then we have teams that are past their expiry date.
Bulls, Hawks, Warriors, Lakers, even Suns and Clippers.
Not all of them will decide it's pointless to continue with current roster, but I bet that at least 2 of those 6 will blow it up.
And there's obviously Jazz. They'll either make trades to improve and keep Markkanen happy or they blow it up, which is undoubtedly Ainge's wish.

I'm against Spurs going all in and trading away a lot of picks, but we simply need two quality starters for the next season. Not necessarily all-stars, but two players that will actually allow us to function like a proper basketball team out there.
It depends on if we get a point guard, but I don't think Tre+rookie is a good idea. Tre isn't good enough to start and none of the rookies in this draft will be ready day one. Just get a competent point guard and have rookie as a backup if that's what they want. But I'd rather just draft wings. And obviously get a 3-D wing we desperately need, we went over the names plenty of times.

But the most important thing is to get rid of Collins. Priority #1.
Bassey's knees are shot and Barlow is just too small. Get a veteran as a backup. Someone like Drummond or Plumlee.

PG: Quality starter with Tre or rookie as backup. Give Wesley another season as a third stringer.
SG: Vassell, Champagnie and Branham.
SF: Jeremy and a rookie. If rookie can't shoot, Jeremy starts. Sidy as third stringer.
PF: Quality 3-D wing to be the glue guy. Mamu as backup. Another rookie if Raptors' pick conveys.
C: Wemby and veteran. Barlow as third stringer.

Should be enough for a play-in spot contention. Quality PG would enable everyone to develop as quickly as possible and into the best version of themselves.
Then go big in 2025 depending on available targets and how the draft goes. By then, all those West teams I mentioned being close to their expiry date will surely be done.

[TD 21]

That shouldn't take any credit away from OKC, they may not have known just how good SGA (and JDubb) would become, but neither did Denver with Jokic, Milwaukee with Giannis, or even the Spurs with Manu. But they hit on the best players on the board, and from that point on you just develop and hope for the best.

The obvious comparisons for the Spurs current situation are Dallas post Doncid, and Cleveland post LeBron. Both tried to speed it up too much, both got burnt. Clearly the Spurs have to do SOMETHING, but they better think twice before they pull the trigger on any blockbuster, because a couple bad moves may be all it takes and it's all downhill from there.

They get no credit for Gilgeous-Alexander. That was a no brainer trade that they were basically forced into (not technically, but by the politics of that NBA).

I've never advocated for "blowing their load" at all costs. All I've essentially said is the typical Spurs off season isn't going to cut it either. They need to (minimally) find a middle ground.

[SpursBills]

This embarrassing showing by the Pelicans this year has me wondering if they're going to consider a major move this offseason. In theory a Pelicans-Hawks trade with the Pels giving up Ingram for Dejounte Murray/OO potentially works.

Pelicans roll out
Dejounte-TMIII-Herb-Zion-OO for lots of length and switchability around Zion

Hawks get a second star forward to pair with Trae and Jalen Johnson

Add a few picks each way to grease the wheels, makes a lot of sense for both teams

If they end up doing that, our Hawks picks get a lot worse but I wonder if it'd be worth it to try and get CJ McCollum for cheap (maybe Hornets pick or something) - he'd provide shooting and some playmaking at the PG spot. I don't expect him to be in our long term plans, but he may be a cheap addition as a bridge PG for the future.

[TD 21]

McCollum is overrated, but he'd be a good fit as a stop gap . . .

Hawks receive: Ingram, Graham, moderate draft capital from Pelicans
Pelicans receive: Murray, Okongwu, minor draft capital from Spurs
Spurs receive: McCollum

[scott]

The only problem I see with that above plan for NOP is that is all hinges upon the thought that they will continue to want to build around Zion. This is the third straight season NOP has been in the play-offs or play-in and Zion has yet to appear in a single one of those games. At some point you’d have to start thinking that this ain’t the guy. Of course, every other team knows this as well - so who is going to take him off their hands? No matter what NOP does, they might be stuck in this play-in purgatory unless they truly blow it up - which might mean moving of Zion while getting relatively little in return.

[mo7888]

As long as we're talking about other teams making moves and trying to get in on the fringe to gease wheels, I'm kinda hoping NY tries to add a major piece and that we can facilitate and get McBride out of the deal.

[SpursBills]

The only problem I see with that above plan for NOP is that is all hinges upon the thought that they will continue to want to build around Zion. This is the third straight season NOP has been in the play-offs or play-in and Zion has yet to appear in a single one of those games. At some point you’d have to start thinking that this ain’t the guy. Of course, every other team knows this as well - so who is going to take him off their hands? No matter what NOP does, they might be stuck in this play-in purgatory unless they truly blow it up - which might mean moving of Zion while getting relatively little in return.

I see your point, but as it pertains to this offseason in particular I think it's most likely that NOP wants to continue to build around Zion. This year in particular in the regular season Zion showed a renewed commitment on the defensive end and showed improved playmaking chops. He also played 70 games this year which is a career high.

Now, I personally agree with you that Zion's probably never going to stay healthy enough to be a major contributor in the postseason, but if you're the Pelicans what choice do they have? They can't straddle this no-man's land where they both keep Zion and don't fully commit to building around him. They have too much talent to fully tank. As you said, if they trade Zion they're probably not getting great value and a healthy Zion is enough of a talent where they don't want to see him go on to have an Embiid-like career later on with another team. Give it a couple more years of Zion being fat and injured and I think they may think differently, but after this particular season I don't think they have the stomach to hedge on Zion yet.

From their standpoint, Ingram's a good player but he's going to be overpaid soon and they have an abundance of talented wings that need more playing time. A trade like this shores up a lot of their weaknesses and gives them an identity. Us helping them by taking CJ off their hands potentially allows them to stomach paying their wings more in the future. The drawback of this is trade is it definitely decreases the value of our Hawks picks, but if both the Hawks and Pels decide to move forward with this we may as well try and get something out of it.

[CGD]

The only problem I see with that above plan for NOP is that is all hinges upon the thought that they will continue to want to build around Zion. This is the third straight season NOP has been in the play-offs or play-in and Zion has yet to appear in a single one of those games. At some point you’d have to start thinking that this ain’t the guy. Of course, every other team knows this as well - so who is going to take him off their hands? No matter what NOP does, they might be stuck in this play-in purgatory unless they truly blow it up - which might mean moving of Zion while getting relatively little in return.

Agree on Zion, but I think they desperately want to keep him for non-basketball reasons.

Honestly, their best line up is Jones-Murphy-Ingram at the 2-3-4. And then a mobile C and PG. Move CJ to the bench.

But they’ll end up moving Ingram.

[Ariel]

Problem with McCollum is that his contract runs 2 more years at 33.3M and 30.7M, so he likely takes you out of '25 free agency (unless you have Zach Collins and Keldon going out in the same deal, for instance). For me that takes away the appeal for any deal that has the Spurs taking salary beyond next season, unless you're getting back a building block, which McCollum isn't. The '25 FA class includes names such as Donovan Mitchell, Markkanen, Derrick White, Alex Caruso, etc, and the Spurs could be big time players, I know people are often dismissive of free agency because of negative historic precedents, but these Wemby led Spurs could be the exception.

Beyond next season, the Spurs have a few guaranteed contracts: Wemby, Vassell, Keldon, Zach Collins. You'd probably want to add Sochan plus this year's picks. Other than that, every contract is expiring this season (Mamu, Osman, Barlow) or next (Tre, Graham), non guaranteed (Cissoko, Champagnie, Bassey) or team option (Branham and Wesley, team has to decide on 4th year -25/26- options by October).

Assuming Wemby, Vassell and Sochan plus 1-3 '24 draft picks are keepers (lets say, 5th and 7th picks, assuming 20% over rookie scale 2nd year salary would be roughly 8.7M and 7.2M respectively), then if the Spurs move Collins and Keldon for expirings by the trade deadline they could be looking at about 63.4M in guaranteed salary beyond '25 (Wemby + Vassell + Sochan + 5th pick in '24 + 7th pick in '24 = 13,4 + 27 + 7,1 + 8,7 +7,2 = 63.4) which with a salary cap at about 155M would give you 92M in cap space, not quite 2 max slots but close, which would be more than enough for 1 max player plus a couple elite role players (say, Markkanen/Donovan Mitchell, Caruso and Naz Reid).

For that, the Spurs would have to move from Keldon (probably neutral value at this point or slightly positive for the right team) and Zach Collins (clearly negative) by the trade deadline at the latest. Assuming you take back 1 year of dead salary then the receiving team would have to pay for 1 extra year for Zach Collins ('25, at about 18M, it'd probably take 2/3 SRPs), and some team would probably take a gamble on Keldon if needed but you could also keep him lowering just 17.5M the available cap figure.

A rough framework could look something like this:
Spurs send: Zach Collins + Devontae Graham + 4 SRPs and receive Malcom Brogdon
Portland sends Malcom Brogdon and receives 2 SRPs + equivalent expirings
Third team sends 20M expiring and receives Zach Collins + Graham + 2 SRPs

Obviously Zach Collins can't go back to Portland directly, which why the proposed deal accounts for that. Third team could be the Wizards sending Richaun Holmes, Johnny Davis and/or Patrick Baldwin Jr or something like that.

In short, every move should consider not only immediate basketball aspects, but long term financial implications, and I'd hesitate to add salary beyond '25 in anticipation of free agency. We'd likely get a preview of how the Spurs feel about his in the way they approach this offseason (picks and long term signings, whether they pick up the options for Branham and Wesley, etc).

[TD 21]

I don't see how this would hurt the value of the Hawks picks. This would at best probably allow them to maintain.


The only problem I see with that above plan for NOP is that is all hinges upon the thought that they will continue to want to build around Zion.

It's not so much a want as it is there's no practical reason not to or better alternative. He's more valuable to them (once projected MVP caliber ship has sailed, but All-NBA caliber hasn't) than anything they could receive, still young and finally seems to have his priorities in order.


As long as we're talking about other teams making moves and trying to get in on the fringe to gease wheels, I'm kinda hoping NY tries to add a major piece and that we can facilitate and get McBride out of the deal.

Dirt cheap and more of a 3 and D type than creator, so no incentive for the Knicks to move him or the Spurs to give up anything of value for him.


Problem with McCollum is that his contract runs 2 more years at 33.3M and 30.7M, so he likely takes you out of '25 free agency (unless you have Zach Collins and Keldon going out in the same deal, for instance). For me that takes away the appeal for any deal that has the Spurs taking salary beyond next season, unless you're getting back a building block, which McCollum isn't. The '25 FA class includes names such as Donovan Mitchell, Markkanen, Derrick White, Alex Caruso, etc, and the Spurs could be big time players, I know people are often dismissive of free agency because of negative historic precedents, but these Wemby led Spurs could be the exception.

Free agency has changed. It's highly unlikely any of the players you mentioned even make it to it and only Mitchell would be of the caliber where you don't make a trade like this to wait on an off chance.

I'm not a McCollum fan, but he's about the best fit all around for this situation and two years is perfect because they probably won't even have a potential heir apparent in place for at least another season.

[scott]

Markkanen will likely make it to FA, just because of the nature of his current deal - he can’t extend for what he is worth, so he is best off waiting for FA. If he was extendable, he’d be my #1 trade target.

[LeBowen]

Markkanen will likely make it to FA, just because of the nature of his current deal - he can’t extend for what he is worth, so he is best off waiting for FA. If he was extendable, he’d be my #1 trade target.

There's no way he makes it past the deadline without an extension or a trade, Ainge isn't that stupid.

They'll either offer him the max or trade him, depending on their future plans. I'm sure Ainge would like to blow it up and start over, but Jazz never tanks. The only franchise in the league that never lost 60 games.

[TD 21]

No, he won't. He'll either extend (fellow fringe All-Stars such as Randle, Sabonis, Murray, Holiday have done so recently) or if the Jazz aren't all but certain he'll re-sign in free agency, he'll be traded to a team that's confident he will, like Anunoby, Siakam, etc.

Only the Craptors (Van Vleet) have been dumb enough to lose a significant player in free agency in recent years.

The value of cap space now is to either take dead money (which there's less of) for draft capital or if you're past that stage, like the Spurs now are, to make a lopsided trade like this where a team is forced to dump a starter for little.

[Ariel]

Free agency has changed. It's highly unlikely any of the players you mentioned even make it to it and only Mitchell would be of the caliber where you don't make a trade like this to wait on an off chance.

I'm not a McCollum fan, but he's about the best fit all around for this situation and two years is perfect because they probably won't even have a potential heir apparent in place for at least another season.
There's reasons to believe each and every player I mentioned could get to free agency:
Donovan Mitchell's future in Cleveland looks murky as he might not want to remain there long term and signing an extension gives him much less control over where he lands.
Markkanen's max extension is less than what he could get in free agency (roughly 4 years 200M vs 5 years 250M),
Boston's tax bill will be huge if they give Derrick White a big contract
Caruso is underpaid so his max extension is below his market value.

Surely some won't make it to free agency but others might and the Spurs wouldn't be smart to put themselves out of the race before it even starts. And in any case, the Spurs aren't in any rush to make a decision, they could wait and see how this offseason goes (who signs and extension and who doesn't, whether there's turmoil concerning any of those players future, etc). They have until october to make a decision on 4th year rookie contracts, and until the February trade deadline to shed salary, so by then they should have a much clearer picture of what is possible and what isn't, and make decisions accordingly. Say they all sign extensions, then you can add salary for '25/'26 without much worry. Otherwise, the scenario I laid out makes a lot more sense than going for a marginal improvement over other much cheaper and more flexible options (like Brogdon).

[TD 21]

There's reasons to believe each and every player I mentioned could get to free agency:
Donovan Mitchell's future in Cleveland looks murky as he might not want to remain there long term and signing an extension gives him much less control over where he lands.
Markkanen's max extension is less than what he could get in free agency (roughly 4 years 200M vs 5 years 250M),
Boston's tax bill will be huge if they give Derrick White a big contract
Caruso is underpaid so his max extension is below his market value.

Surely some won't make it to free agency but others might and the Spurs wouldn't be smart to put themselves out of the race before it even starts. And in any case, the Spurs aren't in any rush to make a decision, they could wait and see how this offseason goes (who signs and extension and who doesn't, whether there's turmoil concerning any of those players future, etc). They have until october to make a decision on 4th year rookie contracts, and until the February trade deadline to shed salary, so by then they should have a much clearer picture of what is possible and what isn't, and make decisions accordingly. Say they all sign extensions, then you can add salary for '25/'26 without much worry. Otherwise, the scenario I laid out makes a lot more sense than going for a marginal improvement over other much cheaper and more flexible options (like Brogdon).

Mitchell is an All-NBA player and what the cool kids nowadays do if they can't get where they want to immediately, is take the money, give the incumbent team an opportunity to reorient the team so that it fits better and in a few years when it fails to yield the results he seeks, force a trade to a preferred destination then.

Again, recent history suggests fringe All-Stars like Markkanen take the extension and either way, it gets sorted out before he goes to market.

They'll figure it out later. Anyone but Tatum might come available if they fail to get at least one championship out of this core.

Caruso might get to free agency, but he's also 30 and unlikely to last long guarding up a position(s) and playing the style he does, so he'll likely be eager to lock in money ASAP too. Either way, as good as he is, he's not worth not doing something a year in advance for.

This is the kind of overly cautions approach the Spurs need to avoid.

[mo7888]

I don't see how this would hurt the value of the Hawks picks. This would at best probably allow them to maintain.



It's not so much a want as it is there's no practical reason not to or better alternative. He's more valuable to them (once projected MVP caliber ship has sailed, but All-NBA caliber hasn't) than anything they could receive, still young and finally seems to have his priorities in order.



Dirt cheap and more of a 3 and D type than creator, so no incentive for the Knicks to move him or the Spurs to give up anything of value for him.



Free agency has changed. It's highly unlikely any of the players you mentioned even make it to it and only Mitchell would be of the caliber where you don't make a trade like this to wait on an off chance.

I'm not a McCollum fan, but he's about the best fit all around for this situation and two years is perfect because they probably won't even have a potential heir apparent in place for at least another season.

Sure, but I'm not talking about a straight up deal for him. I'm talking about a 3 team deal where we have to provide something for a deal to get done and it gives us leverage.

As for Mcbride himself, a 3D PG would fit nicely if we bring in a SF that can facilitate. I'm not saying he's a long term answer, but he'd be a nice situational piece, at worst.

[Ariel]

Mitchell is an All-NBA player and what the cool kids nowadays do if they can't get where they want to immediately, is take the money, give the incumbent team an opportunity to reorient the team so that it fits better and in a few years when it fails to yield the results he seeks, force a trade to a preferred destination then.
And that's how the "cool kids" end up freezing in Milwaukee rather than sipping margaritas in Miami, maybe Donovan learned a lesson (already got burned when he was sent to Cleveland rather than NY).

Again, recent history suggests fringe All-Stars like Markkanen take the extension and either way, it gets sorted out before he goes to market.
Randle, Sabonis, Murray, Holiday wanted to remain in their teams long term at the time of their extensions, Lauri might not

Caruso might get to free agency, but he's also 30 and unlikely to last long guarding up a position(s) and playing the style he does, so he'll likely be eager to lock in money ASAP too. Either way, as good as he is, he's not worth not doing something a year in advance for.
I'm not advocating the Spurs hold off on all their plans for him, I'm saying he's one in a list that the Spurs could find interesting.

This is the kind of overly cautions approach the Spurs need to avoid.
Overly cautious out of fear of losing CJ McCallum?? As in you can't wait until the offseason progresses to find out whether they signed extensions or not and THEN pick a path? As in there's no players in his tier or close that could be available later on? What you call "overly cautious" I call "not jumping the gun". We're not agreeing on this one.

[TD 21]

And that's how the "cool kids" end up freezing in Milwaukee rather than sipping margaritas in Miami, maybe Donovan learned a lesson (already got burned when he was sent to Cleveland rather than NY).

Randle, Sabonis, Murray, Holiday wanted to remain in their teams long term at the time of their extensions, Lauri might not

I'm not advocating the Spurs hold off on all their plans for him, I'm saying he's one in a list that the Spurs could find interesting.

Overly cautious out of fear of losing CJ McCallum?? As in you can't wait until the offseason progresses to find out whether they signed extensions or not and THEN pick a path? As in there's no players in his tier or close that could be available later on? What you call "overly cautious" I call "not jumping the gun". We're not agreeing on this one.

I'm not saying Mitchell will re-sign, I'm saying one way or another it'll be sorted out this off season.

Markkanen supposedly does too, which is not surprising. It's the first time he's got to be "the man", a role he wouldn't play on many other teams.

No, as in not making a no brainer trade because of delusions of grandeur. Brogdon is at best equivalent, but more injury prone and there's no other alternative that checks this many boxes without having to expend any of the "good" draft capital.

[scott]

Lauri won’t sign an extension because he only makes $18MM next year, which means an extension would start at $25.2MM/year (140% of the final year of his previous deal). There is always room for players to sign dumb deals, but I can’t see any circumstance in which Lauri Markkenen signs a deal that starts at only $25.2MM/year.

Yes, a team could always acquire him with a handshake deal that he’ll resign, but there is risk inherent in that as well. A team would need to understand that acquiring Lauri may end up being only be a one-year rental. Ainge might get better value by assisting Lauri in a S&T.

[scott]

Markkenen’s situation (extension would start at $25.2MM) is nothing like Sabonis (extension starts at $39MM). Randle’s deal is more comparable, but happened a few years ago when the cap was in a different space.

Murray’s is the most comparable, and if you recall there was thought that the Spurs would not be able to extend DJM because of the exact same situation Lauri’s contract creates. A lot of people were surprised when Dejounte signed that extension with Atlanta for that reason (starting at $25MM).

Is it possible that Lauri takes an extension starting at $25MM? Sure… but again I think it’s highly highly unlikely (for starters, because it starts a year later’s than DJM, it would actually be a lower relative starting point that Dejounte’s extension). Thus, regardless of whether Lauri gets traded or not… it is still likely he hits FA (whether his existing team will have a firm leg up in resigning him, is another question)

[Ariel]

Markkenen’s situation (extension would start at $25.2MM) is nothing like Sabonis (extension starts at $39MM). Randle’s deal is more comparable, but happened a few years ago when the cap was in a different space.

Murray’s is the most comparable, and if you recall there was thought that the Spurs would not be able to extend DJM because of the exact same situation Lauri’s contract creates. A lot of people were surprised when Dejounte signed that extension with Atlanta for that reason (starting at $25MM).

Is it possible that Lauri takes an extension starting at $25MM? Sure… but again I think it’s highly highly unlikely (for starters, because it starts a year later’s than DJM, it would actually be a lower relative starting point that Dejounte’s extension). Thus, regardless of whether Lauri gets traded or not… it is still likely he hits FA (whether his existing team will have a firm leg up in resigning him, is another question)
That's usually true, but Utah will have cap space so they can renegotiate Markkanen's salary and then offer an extension of 140% over the renegotiated value, so they can offer significantly more than that. I think it will come down to whether he feels confortable in Utah or going to a third team of their choice, or he is willing to wait the year to get some more money but fundamentally total control over his career. In any case, any renegotiation and extension is surely to happen as soon as allowed, so we'll find out early into the offseason which way he'll go.

[scott]

That's usually true, but Utah will have cap space so they can renegotiate Markkanen's salary and then offer an extension of 140% over the renegotiated value, so they can offer significantly more than that. I think it will come down to whether he feels confortable in Utah or going to a third team of their choice, or he is willing to wait the year to get some more money but fundamentally total control over his career. In any case, any renegotiation and extension is surely to happen as soon as allowed, so we'll find out early into the offseason which way he'll go.

Thanks for that info - I was unaware of the renegotiate and extend capability.

I presume that if that gets done early in the offseason, then he could be tradable around Dec 15? If that is the case and he extends, I’d be on the horn immediately to see if there is a possible deal. However, based on the value Ainge likes to (and is successful at) extracting in trades, I’d almost prefer to try to acquire him on an expiring or just wait until he hits FA.

[Ariel]

Thanks for that info - I was unaware of the renegotiate and extend capability.
Yup, basically in contracts of at least 4 years and starting in the 3rd year, the team can renegotiate to increase the salary of the player by a number up to the available cap space. Not used a lot but it happens, most recent examples are Myles Turner and Sabonis. In the first case it was used to move forward some of the extension money and not let the available cap space go to waste (they had to spend it on something), while in the latter it was used to raise the number of the last year of the contract so that they could offer a richer extension and avoid free agency, which otherwise would not have been possible. This is exactly Markkanen's case.
https://cbabreakdown.com/contract-types/
https://kings-beat.beehiiv.com/p/kings-renegotiate-extend-star-center-domantas-sabonis
https://theathletic.com/4134410/2023/01/29/leroux-myles-turners-unusual-deal-could-be-a-win-win-for-him-and-pacers/

I presume that if that gets done early in the offseason, then he could be tradable around Dec 15? If that is the case and he extends, I’d be on the horn immediately to see if there is a possible deal. However, based on the value Ainge likes to (and is successful at) extracting in trades, I’d almost prefer to try to acquire him on an expiring or just wait until he hits FA.
Yeah, I agree, which is why I didn't bring up that possibility. Ainge is savage when he has leverage, so I'd even feel more confident in trading for Donovan Mitchell if Markkanen agrees to an extension. I'd say it's likely he signs, but there may be a 30% chance he doesn't and that is enough to be vigilant.

[TD 21]

Yes, a team could always acquire him with a handshake deal that he’ll resign, but there is risk inherent in that as well. A team would need to understand that acquiring Lauri may end up being only be a one-year rental. Ainge might get better value by assisting Lauri in a S&T.

This is not how business is conducted within' the league. Teams don't just go into advanced trade discussions for superstar or star players blind. There's rampant tampering, so if it gets to that stage, it'll do so because the inquiring team knows the player is all but certain to re-sign.

[Silverheart80]

Spurs starters in the fall of 2025:

Derrick White (UFA signing, summer 2025)
Alexandre Sarr (if Spurs don't land the #1 via lottery, trade their lottery pick + Vassell to go get it)
Jeremy Sochan (keep developing him)
Stephon Castle (fates are kind again, and we get Toronto's pick)
Victor Wembanyama (nuff said)

Ideal 2024 off-season is acquiring Sarr and Castle -- and not squandering draft capital / mega cap space on point guards that can't play defense. Solution for a championship point guard doesn't happen in the 2024 draft. It happens in next year's free agency.

[skin27]

What about bringing back Demar?

Starting 5 next season would be:

Topic/Dillingham
Demar
Vassell
Sochan
Wemby

[spurraider21]

What about bringing back Demar?

Starting 5 next season would be:

Topic/Dillingham
Demar
Vassell
Sochan
Wemby
topic/demar/sochan in the starting lineup i might just nacho varga myself

derozan is obviously a good player but he doesnt add shooting and doesnt add defense

[skin27]

topic/demar/sochan in the starting lineup i might just nacho varga myself

derozan is obviously a good player but he doesnt add shooting and doesnt add defense

No worries wemby can protect the paint

[Silverheart80]

What about bringing back Demar?

Starting 5 next season would be:

Topic/Dillingham
Demar
Vassell
Sochan
Wemby

Congratulations on making one of the NBA's worst defensive teams even lousier.

Dilly + Demar + Vassell = defensive suicide. Vassell cannot stay in front of his man on any given possession. Seen four years of that. We already know it's the same with Demar, and he's even older now. Dilly doesn't even pretend to play defense. Sochan and VW cannot make up for that level of incompetence.

Trade Vassell + 2024 lottery pick to move up in the draft, if we don't get the #1. Go all in on Alexandre Sarr. Put him on the floor with Sochan and Wembanyama and then we're building a core vs. developing a farm system of lottery dwellers.

[scott]

Spurs starters in the fall of 2025:

Derrick White (UFA signing, summer 2025)
Alexandre Sarr (if Spurs don't land the #1 via lottery, trade their lottery pick + Vassell to go get it)
Jeremy Sochan (keep developing him)
Stephon Castle (fates are kind again, and we get Toronto's pick)
Victor Wembanyama (nuff said)

Ideal 2024 off-season is acquiring Sarr and Castle -- and not squandering draft capital / mega cap space on point guards that can't play defense. Solution for a championship point guard doesn't happen in the 2024 draft. It happens in next year's free agency.

Wemby might have to average 40ppg just for us to score 90ppg with this lineup. Where's the shooting?

[Chinook]

Portis and Middle combine for 58 points on 51 possessions to win without Giannis. Snagging both, getting an additional first and moving Collins money for less than half of what it'd take to get Young, Mitchell or Markkanen still feels like a great deal.

[Chinook]

Vassell is not a bad defender per se. He's just clearly a guy who has to be on a team that's already good defensively. It's the same with DJM. The team's lack of a POA defender is hurting them. Sochan looks like he'll eventually be able to guard 97 percent of the PG-PF players in the league, but championships are won against that 3 percent.

I think Vassell and Dillingham or Vassell and Murray could only work in the context of finding that unicorn defensive wing who can combined with Wemby to make the team a stout defense. Then they can do their part disrupting. DeRozan/Vassell can work somewhat with Jones for a couple of years, but you'd want a sturdier PG who can potential guard 1-3. Castle is the choice there, but I still think Collier has a legit chance to be that kind of guy. I think Dillingham/Vassel/DeRozan is something you do if the goal next year is to just get the offense on track and not to make a serious playoff run. That starting five has a lot of play-making potential, but I don't think sharing the ball would be a huge problem. It's just hard to see them winning much with such a lopsided defense. Starting Jones might fix that, but it's still not a great defense, and you miss out on some offensive explosion.

[skin27]

I dont get the idea of getting sarr. We dont need him cause we already have wemby. Dillingham and topic is the most logical pick plus 3 and D SF.

Also in today's era defense in not that important anymore unlike 2 decades ago..offense wins championship in today's NBA

[Chinook]

If Sarr is the best player, take him. He and Wemby don't have to play every minute together for it to be a good pick. They should be able to play some minutes together, but if Sarr is good, the team could always trade him as part of a package for a star later. They shouldn't be looking at the path to a championship so linearly that every move they make should have to be justified in how it fits that future roster.

[poopbox]

Portis and Middle combine for 58 points on 51 possessions to win without Giannis. Snagging both, getting an additional first and moving Collins money for less than half of what it'd take to get Young, Mitchell or Markkanen still feels like a great deal.

Middleton is physically breaking down. Hard no on him. We'd just be left holding the bag while he a shell of his former self.

[Ignazzz]

So. Overpay OG.

[JPB]

Spurs starters in the fall of 2025:

Derrick White (UFA signing, summer 2025)
Alexandre Sarr (if Spurs don't land the #1 via lottery, trade their lottery pick + Vassell to go get it)
Jeremy Sochan (keep developing him)
Stephon Castle (fates are kind again, and we get Toronto's pick)
Victor Wembanyama (nuff said)

Ideal 2024 off-season is acquiring Sarr and Castle -- and not squandering draft capital / mega cap space on point guards that can't play defense. Solution for a championship point guard doesn't happen in the 2024 draft. It happens in next year's free agency.

Adding two more rookies to give time to and develop, to this already awful, NBA bottom team, for Wemby to "play" with next year won't do it for alot fo poeple, starting with Vic. Who honestly wants to watch a third year of painful spurs ball, only to end up with #5 pick, next year, much less playing it when you're Victor Wembanayama.

What if Sarr and Castle are busts or just random role players? And who do you get FOR SURE in 2025 free agency?

[Silverheart80]

Adding two more rookies to give time to and develop, to this already awful, NBA bottom team, for Wemby to "play" with next year won't do it for alot fo poeple, starting with Vic. Who honestly wants to watch a third year of painful spurs ball, only to end up with #5 pick, next year, much less playing it when you're Victor Wembanayama.

What if Sarr and Castle are busts or just random role players? And who do you get FOR SURE in 2025 free agency?

Neither of those guys are gonna be busts, so long as they stay relatively healthy. Defensive IQ translates to the NBA, and they both have it in spades. Sarr plays like a wing and would complement VW beautifully. This isn't a Twin Towers situation. Sarr can defend like a maniac on the perimeter. He's got a solid stroke and can shoot from three, and he and VW would be murder, in high-low, and pick-and-roll. Defensively -- he'll instantly improve the whole squad playing with VW and Sochan. When you look at Sarr's measurements, you think 'center'. But when you watch his game, he plays best as a wing.

No Spurs fan wants to see another losing season, but considering that no current Spur other than Victor can create any offensive mismatch whatsoever -- we're gonna be in the Lottery again this year. It is what it is. Almost all of the guards in this draft have major deficiencies. Castle seems like the one with skillsets that translate fastest to success in the NBA, even if he's not gonna be a sniper from Day One, like everybody wants. His process, and the process of upgrading almost the entire lineup, is not gonna be over in one summer. You can try rushing the process with a desperation free agent signing, but the road to dynasty runs through making smart draft picks, and the Spurs need at least one great pick this summer. Sarr is the one. Best player in this draft and will fit with VW right away.

[Silverheart80]

If Sarr is the best player, take him. He and Wemby don't have to play every minute together for it to be a good pick. They should be able to play some minutes together, but if Sarr is good, the team could always trade him as part of a package for a star later. They shouldn't be looking at the path to a championship so linearly that every move they make should have to be justified in how it fits that future roster.

Yup. Second sentence is key.

As much as I think Sarr's game is big wing, rather than center, and thus will fit extremely well with VW from Day One -- VW is not gonna play 82 games next season. He's just not. I think Chinook is saying Sarr can play minutes in the interior when VW catches his breath, and this is true. But we also need young stars who can carry the team when Victor is sitting out, whether for the inevitable 8-10 games when Pop sits him down for 'management', or when he's legitimately injured. Devin chucking desperation, contested, turnaround bombs because he can't make an entry pass and can't lose his man is the extent of our "star" abilities without Victor right now. Vassell's decision-making has a lot to do with why this team is as bad as it is. Same with KJ.

Even as a rookie, Sarr's positional versatility will create terrific mismatch options with VW, and won't leave the cupboard bare when VW is out.

[Silverheart80]

Wemby might have to average 40ppg just for us to score 90ppg with this lineup. Where's the shooting?

White's shooting 40% from three for the season. And he's more than carrying his scoring weight under playoff pressure. His game would fit beautifully alongside Victor but he's not a free agent 'til summer 2025. Only one more year.

Sarr's got a solid, all-around shooting stroke and he can hit threes. The "Twin Towers" analogy is wrong. He plays like a wing. He's gonna be a star.

Sochan will continue to develop. Too much shooting improvement from last year to this year to give up on him. I believe in his development, even from long-range.

Castle's got a strong midrange game, playing alongside a big man. He hit big shots in the Final Four. He's got a solid stroke that needs some work, but he's not broken. It'll take a year to work his offense up to starter level, but his defense will translate immediately.

I think the point guard improvement that many are clamoring for doesn't happen until summer 2025. The right answer isn't in this year's Lottery. Too many small players with massive deficiencies. But if we make the right upgrades before that 'right' player arrives (probably via free agency), we'll be a contender in very short order pending good fortune, health-wise.

[Chinook]

Middleton is physically breaking down. Hard no on him. We'd just be left holding the bag while he a shell of his former self.

He's signed for another year or two. That's the same length or less than Collins. What bag are you assuming the Spurs are holding?

[MultiTroll]

Who honestly wants to watch a third year of painful spurs ball, only to end up with #5 pick, next year, much less playing it when you're Victor Wembanayama.
:pop:

[mo7888]

He's signed for another year or two. That's the same length or less than Collins. What bag are you assuming the Spurs are holding?

Both KM and Portis are contracted next year and both have a PO for the following. As with most things, it comes down to price (in assets we'd be giving up) and possibly agreements to have them opt in if possible could effect how much we'd be willing to give up.

From a purely basketball perspective it would be intriguing if we could add those guys and pull a starting level PG to pair with them.

[Mitch Cumsteen]

Hard no on CJ McCollum. Old, bad contract, poor defender, volume scorer who looked completely washed against OKC. The Spurs already have plenty of guys who can shoot 24% from three in the playoffs.

[couchman]

Get the #1 and #7 picks in lotto
Trade down from #1 to gain future FRP swap + lower lotto pick this year
Draft Sheppard or Dilly, Clingan, and Bronny (2nd round)
Sign and trade for Maxey (likely requires Kelton, Collin and 3 or 4 FRP)
Sign LeBron

SL
Maxey
Vassell
Sochan
LeBron
Wemby

That’s a playoff team right away and a 3&D wing away from title contention.
Clingan gets a lot of backup center minutes
Dilly or Sheppard get to develop as a backup role player

[LeBowen]

Both KM and Portis are contracted next year and both have a PO for the following. As with most things, it comes down to price (in assets we'd be giving up) and possibly agreements to have them opt in if possible could effect how much we'd be willing to give up.

From a purely basketball perspective it would be intriguing if we could add those guys and pull a starting level PG to pair with them.

We're lacking a lot of things with this roster, but we got Middleton at home.

Season 4 Middleton: 18.2/3.8/4.2 on 44/39/88
Season 4 Vassell: 19.5/3.8/4.1 on 47/37/80

Obviously numbers don't tell the whole story, not even close.
But Devin got a big contract and Spurs should either enable him to reach his full potential or trade him away before that contract is seen as an overpay.

[JPB]

Neither of those guys are gonna be busts, so long as they stay relatively healthy. D

We have no idea how they will fare in the NBA. Maybe not busts, but not starting material either. We also can't repeat this draft is weak and rave at all these kids.

https://i.postimg.cc/0Qgp8rRd/expectationse.jpg

You have around 40% chances to end up with a back up in the lottery, around 30% a starter, something like 16-17% with an all star and 10% with an end of bench guy...

Sure, the higher in the lottery the better the chances of success but again, this draft is considered weak, so those numbers probalby have to be lowered, or more exactly how high next june prospects would be drafted in your average draft (and then their expected success). For example Sarr or Risacher expected to be drafted top 3 this year certainly have a much lower probability to end up all stars than top 3 guys in most other years.

(I'll try to find the the table, pick by pick, I posted last year).

[JPB]

Get the #1 and #7 picks in lotto
Trade down from #1 to gain future FRP swap + lower lotto pick this year
Draft Sheppard or Dilly, Clingan, and Bronny (2nd round)
Sign and trade for Maxey (likely requires Kelton, Collin and 3 or 4 FRP)
Sign LeBron

SL
Maxey
Vassell
Sochan
LeBron
Wemby

That’s a playoff team right away and a 3&D wing away from title contention.
Clingan gets a lot of backup center minutes
Dilly or Sheppard get to develop as a backup role player

Philly is not trading Maxey.

[mo7888]

We're lacking a lot of things with this roster, but we got Middleton at home.

Season 4 Middleton: 18.2/3.8/4.2 on 44/39/88
Season 4 Vassell: 19.5/3.8/4.1 on 47/37/80

Obviously numbers don't tell the whole story, not even close.
But Devin got a big contract and Spurs should either enable him to reach his full potential or trade him away before that contract is seen as an overpay.

But we wouldn't be getting year 4 Middleton, we'd be getting a vet that understands the game much better. Also, this Middleton is more of a 3 now while Vassell is a 2. It's not an 'either-or' situation with those guys.

[Chinook]

Both KM and Portis are contracted next year and both have a PO for the following. As with most things, it comes down to price (in assets we'd be giving up) and possibly agreements to have them opt in if possible could effect how much we'd be willing to give up.

From a purely basketball perspective it would be intriguing if we could add those guys and pull a starting level PG to pair with them.

Yep, that's why I said "a year or two". Basically, the "bag" would be paying like $12 Million more for Middleton than they're already slated to be giving Collins. I don't consider that a bad risk. Now if he's starts breaking down, and they get him to opt in and sign a big extension or give him a new big contract, that could be its own thing. But that trade wouldn't require Middleton or Portis do anything but play out his contract

[couchman]

Philly is not trading Maxey.

I'll acknowledge that it is very unlikely, but what if Maxey demands it?
He's a Texas kid.
How much does he like Embiid? Does he believe in their future vs Knicks and Celtics?
Would teaming up with Wemby for the next 10 years be enticing to him?

Things happen fast in the NBA and Morey seems unafraid of making big moves when he has to.
We have significant draft capital and salary filler.
When we talk about using that to find Wemby a running mate THIS is the kind of brave move it will probably require.

Again, I agree that it is very unlikely, but I was asked to post my ideal offseason and this is it.

-Couchie

[Chinook]

But we wouldn't be getting year 4 Middleton, we'd be getting a vet that understands the game much better. Also, this Middleton is more of a 3 now while Vassell is a 2. It's not an 'either-or' situation with those guys.

Yep, Vassell being on track to become Middleton would be more reason to bring in Khris to mentor him. Then in a couple of years, Middleton steps back or moves on, Vassell takes his role, and a young SF like Holland moves into the starting lineup.

Instead of trading draft picks to bring in a young vet SF at a premium, they're bringing in an actualized SF while using fewer picks to draft his successor. It's significantly more sustainable while also being more likely to lead to immediate success.

[LeBowen]

But we wouldn't be getting year 4 Middleton, we'd be getting a vet that understands the game much better. Also, this Middleton is more of a 3 now while Vassell is a 2. It's not an 'either-or' situation with those guys.

I know, but Middleton wouldn't move to the Spurs for anything less than max money and he wouldn't solve all of our playmaking issues. And he's not a great defender anymore. And is injury prone.

If we're talking about veterans to throw the bag at, I wouldn't mind Harden on a two year max deal.
Nephw looks ready for retirement, if PG leaves Harden won't stay there by himself.
It would be between Orlando and Spurs for him if he's still looking to get paid.

Also, I read that Pistons are getting a new GM. Who knows what's his plan. Maybe he doesn't want to give Cade the max while they're still two years away, because that team really has nothing to work with even after all these years.
Maybe Cade isn't up for some more years of losing. I'd go for it if Cade became available.

[mo7888]

Yep, that's why I said "a year or two". Basically, the "bag" would be paying like $12 Million more for Middleton than they're already slated to be giving Collins. I don't consider that a bad risk. Now if he's starts breaking down, and they get him to opt in and sign a big extension or give him a new big contract, that could be its own thing. But that trade wouldn't require Middleton or Portis do anything but play out his contract

Yes, the amount of money left on their contracts are almost irrelevant to me. It's the assets we'd be giving up that is more relevant. I'd be more in favor of giving up significant assets if they were willing to opt-in on year two.

[mo7888]

I know, but Middleton wouldn't move to the Spurs for anything less than max money and he wouldn't solve all of our playmaking issues. And he's not a great defender anymore. And is injury prone.

If we're talking about veterans to throw the bag at, I wouldn't mind Harden on a two year max deal.
Nephw looks ready for retirement, if PG leaves Harden won't stay there by himself.
It would be between Orlando and Spurs for him if he's still looking to get paid.

Also, I read that Pistons are getting a new GM. Who knows what's his plan. Maybe he doesn't want to give Cade the max while they're still two years away, because that team really has nothing to work with even after all these years.
Maybe Cade isn't up for some more years of losing. I'd go for it if Cade became available.

We aren't talking about paying him max money in this scenario. He's under contract for $31.6 next season with a PO for the following.

Also, if were sending out Collins etc, as in Chinook's trade suggestion, there are still ways to throw a bag at Harden if we wanted to go that route or trade for another max guy on a contract.

[scott]

We have no idea how they will fare in the NBA. Maybe not busts, but not starting material either. We also can't repeat this draft is weak and rave at all these kids.

https://i.postimg.cc/0Qgp8rRd/expectationse.jpg

You have around 40% chances to end up with a back up in the lottery, around 30% a starter, something like 16-17% with an all star and 10% with an end of bench guy...

Sure, the higher in the lottery the better the chances of success but again, this draft is considered weak, so those numbers probalby have to be lowered, or more exactly how high next june prospects would be drafted in your average draft (and then their expected success). For example Sarr or Risacher expected to be drafted top 3 this year certainly have a much lower probability to end up all stars than top 3 guys in most other years.

(I'll try to find the the table, pick by pick, I posted last year).

This is a great chart. Mind sharing where you found it (or is it one you built?)?

[LeBowen]

We aren't talking about paying him max money in this scenario. He's under contract for $31.6 next season with a PO for the following.

Usually when trades happen, players opt out of their options to get longer deals.
I don't see a reason why would 33 year old Middleton want to join the Spurs only to get the same contract security he would with the Bucks and to be out of contract as a 34 year old, injury prone veteran.
Tbh, idk why are we even discussing him. As long as Giannis is with the Bucks, Middleton will also be there.


Also, if were sending out Collins etc, as in Chinook's trade suggestion, there are still ways to throw a bag at Harden if we wanted to go that route or trade for another max guy on a contract.

Yeah, it's a given that Collins+Keldon are a perfect package for salary matching.
If we're going Harden route, my next move would be to call the Nets.
Keldon+Collins for Bridges+DFS. With 2 FRPs. Chicago and Toronto.
Or even Bridges+Cam Johnson, but that would likely require one more pick. Or anyone on the roster except Jeremy if they're into any of our scrubs.
I'd maybe even consider Devin for Bridges straight up.

Harden/Tre
Devin/Branham
Bridges/rookie
DFS/Sochan
Wemby/veteran (Drummond or Plumlee)

Guaranteed play-in team, would still keep all the valuable picks and cap flexibility because there would be no contracts running past 2026.

With that being said, no chance Harden comes here, but getting him would be ideal.

[poopbox]

He's signed for another year or two. That's the same length or less than Collins. What bag are you assuming the Spurs are holding?

Holding the bag as in if we got Middleton he going to spend more times on the sideline hurt than he going to spend on the court.

You don't want to be the team paying a player when his body is broken down and he can't consistently stay on the court.

Kawhi is a perfect example. He had his best years as a Spur and we got a title out of it. He actually played through pain in Toronto and limped them to a title. Then he went to the clippers and they have only done two noetworthy things since he got there. Blow a 3 - 1 lead to Denver and make the WCF while he was hurt. Between the Spurs, Raptors, and Clippers, the Clippers are the one who got left holding the bag playing premium money for a player who can never be healthy for them in the most important games. Even if it was only 2 years with Middleton we would be better served giving those minutes to someone else. Almost anyone else really.

[mo7888]

Usually when trades happen, players opt out of their options to get longer deals.
I don't see a reason why would 33 year old Middleton want to join the Spurs only to get the same contract security he would with the Bucks and to be out of contract as a 34 year old, injury prone veteran.
Tbh, idk why are we even discussing him. As long as Giannis is with the Bucks, Middleton will also be there.



Yeah, it's a given that Collins+Keldon are a perfect package for salary matching.
If we're going Harden route, my next move would be to call the Nets.
Keldon+Collins for Bridges+DFS. With 2 FRPs. Chicago and Toronto.
Or even Bridges+Cam Johnson, but that would likely require one more pick. Or anyone on the roster except Jeremy if they're into any of our scrubs.
I'd maybe even consider Devin for Bridges straight up.

Harden/Tre
Devin/Branham
Bridges/rookie
DFS/Sochan
Wemby/veteran (Drummond or Plumlee)

Guaranteed play-in team, would still keep all the valuable picks and cap flexibility because there would be no contracts running past 2026.

With that being said, no chance Harden comes here, but getting him would be ideal.

The word is that several 2nd level stars are interested in Wemby, so KM should be right there especially since he's a little lower than that. Also, he can only opt out after he's played 1 season, which is why I'd preger he opt-in as part of the deal. Even if he doesn't though, is anyone really paying him more in year 2 than he can get by opting in? I doubt it, which open up the opportunity to extend at a lower future number.

[JPB]

This is a great chart. Mind sharing where you found it (or is it one you built?)?

I'm flattered you considered it could be my own built but...:

https://www.draftexpress.com/

there's the exact % if you mouse over the columns (just saw that lol).

[LeBowen]

The word is that several 2nd level stars are interested in Wemby, so KM should be right there especially since he's a little lower than that. Also, he can only opt out after he's played 1 season, which is why I'd preger he opt-in as part of the deal. Even if he doesn't though, is anyone really paying him more in year 2 than he can get by opting in? I doubt it, which open up the opportunity to extend at a lower future number.

Imo, those second level stars would be some younger players.
Odds of Spurs winning a ring in 2025 or 2026 are really low, I dom't think any star older than 30 is on the list.

If the word is true, those stars would most likely be along the lines of players in their mid-late 20s looking to finally win like Mitchell, Lavine, Bridges, Trae, Markkanen, Fox or upcoming stars looking to get out of shitty franchises like Lamelo and Cade.

[JPB]

An here's a few interesting stats, before if I find (or not) the pick by pick career expectations. Source seems reliable (somehow).

https://gitnux.org/average-nba-career-length/



Average NBA Career Length Statistics
.
The average career length of an NBA player is 4.5 years.
Only 5% of NBA players last more than 14 seasons in the league.
Nearly 60% of NBA players have careers that span two seasons or less.
Players on guaranteed contracts average a length of 4.8 years.
players who have All-Star appearance average 11.7 career years in the NBA.
The average career length of an NBA first-round pick is about six years.
On average, NBA players retire at age 34.
Only 20% of NBA players play past their fifth season.
Shooting guards have the second longest career average at 4.8 years.
Players who make the NBA All-Rookie First Team average more than 9 seasons.
Power forwards have the third longest career average at 4.7 years.
The average age of NBA draft picks since 2000 is 21.
14% of NBA players have a career that lasts ten seasons or longer.
Players who make the NBA All-Star team at least once, on average, last 12.2 seasons.
Small forwards average 4.6 years in their careers.
The average player drafted in the lottery since 2000 played in the NBA for 10.6 years.
Point guards average 4.5 years in their careers.
NBA players who are 7 feet tall or taller average careers of nearly 10 seasons.

[Ignazzz]

Nets got offer 4 FRP for Bridges and said NO.

[CGD]

Nets got offer 4 FRP for Bridges and said NO.

They’re idiots.

[BacktoBasics]

An here's a few interesting stats, before if I find (or not) the pick by pick career expectations. Source seems reliable (somehow).

https://gitnux.org/average-nba-career-length/



Average NBA Career Length Statistics
.
The average career length of an NBA player is 4.5 years.
Only 5% of NBA players last more than 14 seasons in the league.
Nearly 60% of NBA players have careers that span two seasons or less.
Players on guaranteed contracts average a length of 4.8 years.
players who have All-Star appearance average 11.7 career years in the NBA.
The average career length of an NBA first-round pick is about six years.
On average, NBA players retire at age 34.
Only 20% of NBA players play past their fifth season.
Shooting guards have the second longest career average at 4.8 years.
Players who make the NBA All-Rookie First Team average more than 9 seasons.
Power forwards have the third longest career average at 4.7 years.
The average age of NBA draft picks since 2000 is 21.
14% of NBA players have a career that lasts ten seasons or longer.
Players who make the NBA All-Star team at least once, on average, last 12.2 seasons.
Small forwards average 4.6 years in their careers.
The average player drafted in the lottery since 2000 played in the NBA for 10.6 years.
Point guards average 4.5 years in their careers.
NBA players who are 7 feet tall or taller average careers of nearly 10 seasons.

This should be mandatory reading material for this board. The constant complaining about picks panning out without any reasonable basis to go off of.

[spurraider21]

Nets got offer 4 FRP for Bridges and said NO.
a) i dont believe them
b) if they are telling the truth, then the nets are idiots

[LeBowen]

a) i dont believe them
b) if they are telling the truth, then the nets are idiots

It's accurate and the entire story is kind of hillarious because it turned out to be a massive L for the Nets.
Before the season started, Memphis offered 4 FRPs for Bridges.
Still, it made sense since Memphis already has their core and those picks were supposed to be bad. I guess at least one was also lottery protected Wizards/Suns swap.

Anyhow, they didn't take the offer because they bought into the Bridges hype. He averaged 26ppg in 27 games after the trade last season.
He comes down to his actual level this season, his value tanks and Memphis pick will be top10 due to all the injuries they had. :lmao

Supposedly they asked for 3 FRP at the deadline and noone even tried to negotiate it.
They'll be lucky to get two average picks and a solid player this summer.
And it looks like Bridges is done with the Nets. He's about to turn 28, he's not good enough to be the first option and he wants to win.

If the cost is just something like I mentioned a few posts ago, then Spurs should go for it regardless of other roster developments.

[Chinook]

I'll say this: I don't think any vet acquired by the team this year is likely to be a prominent member of the roster by the time the team is ready to contend. They'll either be too old or too expensive in the world of the second apron. Trading for Bridges is making a trade for two or three years from now while paying as if he's the missing piece right now. It's a very similar move to Young, though with less upside and down.

[vy65]

Yep, Vassell being on track to become Middleton would be more reason to bring in Khris to mentor him. Then in a couple of years, Middleton steps back or moves on, Vassell takes his role, and a young SF like Holland moves into the starting lineup.

Instead of trading draft picks to bring in a young vet SF at a premium, they're bringing in an actualized SF while using fewer picks to draft his successor. It's significantly more sustainable while also being more likely to lead to immediate success.

I think you had floated the idea of KD before. With the Suns being a round one sweep/second apron team, you’d have to think that they’ll do something with their core. I’d rather KD than Middleton.

[LeBowen]

I'll say this: I don't think any vet acquired by the team this year is likely to be a prominent member of the roster by the time the team is ready to contend. They'll either be too old or too expensive in the world of the second apron. Trading for Bridges is making a trade for two or three years from now while paying as if he's the missing piece right now. It's a very similar move to Young, though with less upside and down.

Depends if those vets would be willing to take paycuts in order to stay with the team and contend.
But we really have to start somewhere. Right now this roster is disgustingly bad and Wemby obviously won't accept tanking for a couple more years.
What are we supposed to do? We've got two NBA players and two more who could be NBA players. Put all our hopes on a couple of rookies in a bad draft and then some more hope in the next draft?
Wait for those rookies and sophmores to develop?

Being outside of play-in contention the next season would be disastrous for everyone.
Wemby, PATFO's reputation, fanbase and attendance.

[TD 21]

Hard no on CJ McCollum. Old, bad contract, poor defender, volume scorer who looked completely washed against OKC. The Spurs already have plenty of guys who can shoot 24% from three in the playoffs.

In an ideal world, I agree. Within' the confines of what I believe this overly conservative organization wants to or is willing to do, if he could be had in the context discussed, he should be a consideration.



I don't see a reason why would 33 year old Middleton want to join the Spurs only to get the same contract security he would with the Bucks and to be out of contract as a 34 year old, injury prone veteran.
Tbh, idk why are we even discussing him. As long as Giannis is with the Bucks, Middleton will also be there.

There's no reason to think he would at any point or that the Spurs would want him too and Portis wouldn't fit their precious "culture" (which is code for avoiding inner city stereotypes unless the value is too good to pass up, like Murray at 29).


But we really have to start somewhere. Right now this roster is disgustingly bad and Wemby obviously won't accept tanking for a couple more years.
What are we supposed to do? We've got two NBA players and two more who could be NBA players. Put all our hopes on a couple of rookies in a bad draft and then some more hope in the next draft?
Wait for those rookies and sophmores to develop?

Being outside of play-in contention the next season would be disastrous for everyone.
Wemby, PATFO's reputation, fanbase and attendance.

Don't worry, if they're just patient, in short order they'll either draft the Parker and Ginobili to Wembanyama's Duncan or one of the handful of MVP caliber players will demand a trade, naturally to here specifically and they'll acquire them for pennies on the dollar.

[Chinook]

This thread is very specifically not about what the Spurs would "actually do". It's about what posters would consider to be their ideal off-season. Some of us have put limits on what that means for sanity, but for the most part this is our chance to say what we want independent of what PATFO thinks. It makes zero sense to try to criticize that while also criticizing folks who defer all judgment on player moves to PATFO.

[TD 21]

I'm aware and was speaking generally.

Even so, you might want to operate within' the basis of reality and if you follow the league closely enough, you'd know that Middleton isn't going anywhere as long as Antetokounmpo is around and Portis wouldn't fit their precious "culture".

You're far from the only one, but this is the one I scrolled across and I don't care enough to bother going through the rest.

[Chinook]

Depends if those vets would be willing to take paycuts in order to stay with the team and contend.

Yes, like Middleton might take a paycut and lesser role to stay. Guys who are popular on here are going to be in the back half of their primes and at the peak of their earning potential. It's very unlikely the NBA culture shifts enough that fast in order for it to be kosher to give up money to form a good team.


But we really have to start somewhere. Right now this roster is disgustingly bad and Wemby obviously won't accept tanking for a couple more years.

This is insecurity brought on by Leonard's situation. It's not rational to worry about that. Wemby doesn't actually give off vibes that he wants his teammates gone. That's fans and the media assuming it. He seems to like his teammates and probably hopes to win with them. Given that the team was much closer to a .500 club after the ASB, I don't think Wemby's as worried as you are.


What are we supposed to do? We've got two NBA players and two more who could be NBA players. Put all our hopes on a couple of rookies in a bad draft and then some more hope in the next draft?
Wait for those rookies and sophmores to develop?

I've given my opinion on what the Spurs could do that is nothing like what you're proposing. They don't have to make some overpay for meh "young" players in an attempt to build a long-lasting team around Victor. They need to embrace how evanescent the NBA is and bring in guys who can be good examples in the locker room and on the court while the young players develop. The first mistake that teams that lose their star do is try to spent a bench on a "young co-star" for their franchise player. It's basically always the wrong move. I believe they should get older, good players and continue to draft guys to replace them. Along the lines of what folks are talking about in this thread, there are older vets who'd be interested in playing on the Spurs. They don't all have the compulsion to seek a ring, nor are all of them willing to take min deals to be bit players on one few true contenders assuming those teams have spots for them at all. The Spurs should absolutely be aggressive in finding those players. They just need to stay away from all of the popular targets mentioned here.


Being outside of play-in contention the next season would be disastrous for everyone.
Wemby, PATFO's reputation, fanbase and attendance.

Eh, it really wouldn't. It depends on how the season goes. Most of us expect the team to compete for a playoff spot. But there are a lot of scenarios where it doesn't happen and it not be a bad thing. I don't think folks have to worry about attendance numbers for a long time given Victor's abilities.

[MultiTroll]

I think you had floated the idea of KD before. With the Suns being a round one sweep/second apron team, you’d have to think that they’ll do something with their core. I’d rather KD than Middleton.
What they say and what they do can always vary.
That being said, they are claiming the trades for Durbeta, Beal and the BookerDashian extention were all made with a 3-4 year plan that they are sticking to.
I didn't save the link.
Believe it was Bookerdashian who was quoted. Can't recall if any of the FO chimed in.

[MultiTroll]

I'm not getting a stiffy over Middleton.
Indiana is very injured themselves so i would not judge by this R1 win.

Didn't he miss like half this season?

[TD 21]

You love to bring up insecurity/fear of the Scumbag saga, yet you do the same with the team x who drafted "generational" prospect and it didn't pan out at least to the level intended (as if it'd be destined to be the Spurs fate).

You also love to bring up stages to championship contention, yet act like any significant trade would be the end game as far as their assets are concerned.

[Chinook]

I'm aware and was speaking generally.

Even so, you might want to operate within' the basis of reality and if you follow the league closely enough, you'd know that Middleton isn't going anywhere as long as Antetokounmpo is around and Portis wouldn't fit their precious "culture".

You're far from the only one, but this is the one I scrolled across and I don't care enough to bother going through the rest.

Why might I want to operate within the basis of reality when it comes to what PATFO wants in a thread about what I would want? That doesn't make sense on the face of it. This is accepting the idea you keep pushing about the Spurs avoiding "hood culture" and the assumption that Portis is part of that culture. There happens to be a thread already about a "realistic off-season" where folks are supposed to cleave as snuggly as they can to reality.

As far as Middleton goes, as I said, we'll see. The Bucks were trying to make a trade for Murray this season according to reports. They have no picks and nothing else of value to make such a deal. Middleton is definitely third behind Giannis and Lillard when it comes to guys the team would avoid moving last year. Giannis will eventually have to decide what he wants more, because he probably won't be able to call shots on a true contender for much longer. He's too far in his career, too expensive and has forced the Bucks into too many expensive moves for those dots to line up.

Of course, there are other scenarios out there to talk about.

[scott]

Usually when trades happen, players opt out of their options to get longer deals.
I don't see a reason why would 33 year old Middleton want to join the Spurs only to get the same contract security he would with the Bucks and to be out of contract as a 34 year old, injury prone veteran.
Tbh, idk why are we even discussing him. As long as Giannis is with the Bucks, Middleton will also be there.



Yeah, it's a given that Collins+Keldon are a perfect package for salary matching.
If we're going Harden route, my next move would be to call the Nets.
Keldon+Collins for Bridges+DFS. With 2 FRPs. Chicago and Toronto.
Or even Bridges+Cam Johnson, but that would likely require one more pick. Or anyone on the roster except Jeremy if they're into any of our scrubs.
I'd maybe even consider Devin for Bridges straight up.

Harden/Tre
Devin/Branham
Bridges/rookie
DFS/Sochan
Wemby/veteran (Drummond or Plumlee)

Guaranteed play-in team, would still keep all the valuable picks and cap flexibility because there would be no contracts running past 2026.

With that being said, no chance Harden comes here, but getting him would be ideal.

I hate that we are even discussing Harden being a Spur. He tops my list of Never-Spurs.

I do like the idea of Bridges, however, if we could find a way to get Bridges, Cam Johnson and Cam Thomas (Thomas I consider to be a prototypical sixth man).

Edit: wrote "third man" instead of "sixth man" in regards to Thomas.

[Chinook]

You love to bring up insecurity/fear of the Scumbag saga, yet you do the same with the team x who drafted "generational" prospect and it didn't pan out at least to the level intended.

So no. Being scarred about one player asking out in his seventh year and using that to worry about a rookie asking out is way different than looking at trends of teams overleveraging themselves trying to build and contender and seeing their star walk. As you were just high-fiving yourself about, the situations with Davis, Zion, Lebron, etc follow the league "reality", while the Kawhi situation is completely divorced from Wemby's situation in basically every way besides both players being on the Spurs.


You also love to bring up stages to championship contention, yet act like any significant trade would be the end game as far as their assets are concerned.

So I've typed too many words in your "Be Patient for Who" thread for you to act like I didn't give multiple ideas for major trades or explain why the specific trades we're talking about are bad. Trading for Mitchell, Young, Markkanen and even Bridges isn't a major move compared to acquring Middleton and drafting Holland and Dillingham. Both are attempts to address the short- and long-term needs of the club. The former does so by trying to split the difference at a premium for a guy who will be good now and in the future, while the latter covers both bases with different players with a hopefully graceful transition between the two but with the added benefit of costing less. I think the team should be built sustainably if there isn't a chance to bring in a championship centerpiece to pair with Wemby. Durant is now becoming more realistic, but the team would have to protect a fair bit of assets from the negotiation which might back it too hard to pull out. But if they could get Durant and draft a PG while holding onto Vassell and Sochan, it would be a no-brainer. Better than any of those other guys by a mile.

[LeBowen]

Yes, like Middleton might take a paycut and lesser role to stay. Guys who are popular on here are going to be in the back half of their primes and at the peak of their earning potential. It's very unlikely the NBA culture shifts enough that fast in order for it to be kosher to give up money to form a good team.


My bad, should've clarified better. I wasn't talking about Middleton who'd already be 34/35 when he takes the paycut, but potential co-stars in their prime.
Like for example 30 year old Bridges or Trae giving Spurs a discount instead of pushing them into cap hell.


This is insecurity brought on by Leonard's situation. It's not rational to worry about that. Wemby doesn't actually give off vibes that he wants his teammates gone. That's fans and the media assuming it. He seems to like his teammates and probably hopes to win with them. Given that the team was much closer to a .500 club after the ASB, I don't think Wemby's as worried as you are.

Actually, it's just my opinion on current roster.
I've seen all 164 games from these past two seasons and I don't think anyone on the roster except Devin and Jeremy is worth keeping past 2025.
Wesley and Branham will get another year because there's space on the roster, but no way they get another contract.
If we talk current trajectories, Devin needs to take another step or he's not worth that contract. On his current level, he's a ~20M per year player in my eyes.
Jeremy as things stand now can be a glue guy off the bench. SlowMo role, more or less.
Others are just scrubs.


I've given my opinion on what the Spurs could do that is nothing like what you're proposing. They don't have to make some overpay for meh "young" players in an attempt to build a long-lasting team around Victor. They need to embrace how evanescent the NBA is and bring in guys who can be good examples in the locker room and on the court while the young players develop. The first mistake that teams that lose their star do is try to spent a bench on a "young co-star" for their franchise player. It's basically always the wrong move. I believe they should get older, good players and continue to draft guys to replace them. Along the lines of what folks are talking about in this thread, there are older vets who'd be interested in playing on the Spurs. They don't all have the compulsion to seek a ring, nor are all of them willing to take min deals to be bit players on one few true contenders assuming those teams have spots for them at all. The Spurs should absolutely be aggressive in finding those players. They just need to stay away from all of the popular targets mentioned here.

We're just talking about realistic targets. It's hard to find players where all the variables allign.
Trade availability, contract situation, personality, basketball fit, age.
For example, I think Markkanen would be a perfect fit in every way possible...but Ainge is his GM and it's just not worth bothering. Won't even pick up the phone without a massive haul.


Eh, it really wouldn't. It depends on how the season goes. Most of us expect the team to compete for a playoff spot. But there are a lot of scenarios where it doesn't happen and it not be a bad thing. I don't think folks have to worry about attendance numbers for a long time given Victor's abilities.

I wrote about it in that other topic. Wemby wants to be on the GOAT trajectory. Another season of nothing wouldn't be a good look.
I'm not saying he'd become unhappy, I just think that Spurs have enough rescources to enable him, but it takes a competent front office.
And that's the biggest question mark. We can throw shit at the wall in here all we want, but we're just a bunch of randoms killing time on an irrelevant forum.
People working for competent front offices are way more knowledgeable than us and a lot of them would do wonders with the assets Spurs have. Is Brian Wright one of them? I'm honestly not sure.
That's what causes my insecurity, not the Leonard situation you mentioned earlier.


I hate that we are even discussing Harden being a Spur. He tops my list of Never-Spurs.


Imagine the glorious Clutchfans meltdown, would be worth it just because of that. :lmao


I do like the idea of Bridges, however, if we could find a way to get Bridges, Cam Johnson and Cam Thomas (Thomas I consider to be a prototypical third man).

The way is fairly straightforward. Would maybe need to find a third team with a legit player because Nets can't tank unless Rockets give them their picks back, but Spurs have enough picks to get those three and not deplete their stash too much.

[TD 21]

Why might I want to operate within the basis of reality when it comes to what PATFO wants in a thread about what I would want?

This is accepting the idea you keep pushing about the Spurs avoiding "hood culture" and the assumption that Portis is part of that culture.

Fine, then I want an MVP caliber player for a top 55 protected '30 2nd and matching salary ballast.

You're not honestly going to debate otherwise, are you? Whether Portis is or not, he projects himself as such and they'd almost certainly perceive him that way too.



So no. Being scarred about one player asking out in his seventh year and using that to worry about a rookie asking out is way different than looking at trends of teams overleveraging themselves trying to build and contender and seeing their star walk. As you were just high-fiving yourself about, the situations with Davis, Zion, Lebron, etc follow the league "reality", while the Kawhi situation is completely divorced from Wemby's situation in basically every way besides both players being on the Spurs.

Durant is now becoming more realistic, but the team would have to protect a fair bit of assets from the negotiation which might back it too hard to pull out. But if they could get Durant and draft a PG while holding onto Vassell and Sochan, it would be a no-brainer. Better than any of those other guys by a mile.

The point is, they're not doomed or screwed for the remainder of Wembanyama era if they make a significant trade that you don't approve of relatively soon, just because those other teams, with far less assets, were.

I don't think anyone rationale is worried about him asking out anytime (relatively) soon, we're concerned about having him for the long term and that means not continuing on the close minded path, at a snail's like pace, that we all know they'd prefer to operate on.

He'd have to be interested (no, he doesn't have a no trade clause, but when you're of his stature, it's how the league works), even in the highly unlikely event he were, he'd cost too much in assets relative to age. The Knicks are the obvious spot for him (I'd say Thunder, but too much baggage), but probably by the '25 off season.

[scott]

Re: Middleton - I've said this before in other threads, but I'm far less concerned about him opting-out in 2025-26, than him being completely broken and opting-in at $34MM. I definitely don't see his next deal starting at $34MM, honestly he may even end up being an MLE vet on his next deal if he doesn't flat out retire. He's on a clear decline, only averaging 15.1ppg while playing 88 games over the last two seasons.

I do think he'd be a nice mentor and vet on the team, but I don't want him eating up $34MM in cap space in Wemby Year 3 if it possibly hamstrings us from making other vital moves in that critical off-season. I'm more interested in the Terry Cummings-like vet (TC came to us at Age 28, coming off an All-Star appearance and All-NBA 3rd Team honors), and IMO Middleton is a little bit past that at this point in his career.

On the plus side, Middleton probably wouldn't cost much to acquire (or at least, he shouldn't). A lotto protected FRP is probably his max true value given his ability to stay healthy, performance in the last two years, and his contract. Bridges is probably a closer Terry Cummings-like acquisition, but will cost more.

I'm also with LeBowen. I think Lauri would be the ideal acquisition... but I don't want to even bother with Ainge.

[heyheymymy]

It's accurate and the entire story is kind of hillarious because it turned out to be a massive L for the Nets.
Before the season started, Memphis offered 4 FRPs for Bridges.
Still, it made sense since Memphis already has their core and those picks were supposed to be bad. I guess at least one was also lottery protected Wizards/Suns swap.

Anyhow, they didn't take the offer because they bought into the Bridges hype. He averaged 26ppg in 27 games after the trade last season.
He comes down to his actual level this season, his value tanks and Memphis pick will be top10 due to all the injuries they had. :lmao

Supposedly they asked for 3 FRP at the deadline and noone even tried to negotiate it.
They'll be lucky to get two average picks and a solid player this summer.
And it looks like Bridges is done with the Nets. He's about to turn 28, he's not good enough to be the first option and he wants to win.

If the cost is just something like I mentioned a few posts ago, then Spurs should go for it regardless of other roster developments.

Thanks for the info

If that's true lol

[buttsR4rebounding]

1. Trade Spurs 24 FRP + Keldon for DJM.
2. If the Tpups need to get under the 2nd apron trade the Toronto pick for Naz Reid.

DJM/Tre/Wesley
Vassell/Branham
Sochan/Champ/Cedi
Reid/Mamu
Wemby/Zollins/Barlow

1st team improves defense, rebounding and 3 point shooting. 2nd team still sucks on defense but should be able to score. Look to next year for draft help.

[Chinook]

Fine, then I want an MVP caliber player for a top 55 protected '30 2nd and matching salary ballast.

You're not honestly going to debate otherwise, are you? Whether Portis is or not, he projects himself as such and they'd almost certainly perceive him that way too.

I don't think you understood my point.

If you said that, I wouldn't care. That's what you want. Like so many other posts in this thread that post ideas that don't make sense to me, I'd just ignore it. As I mentioned, the boundaries for "realism" are at our convenience in this thread. If you want to limit your ideal off-season to the worldview you have where Portis is a "hood" player the Spurs would avoid due to their prejudice, that's fine. I personally, I don't buy into either of those premises, and I certainly don't think it makes sense to put them at the core of the assumptions I set out for these scenarios in the same way of trades being mathematically possible or lotto odds not being optimized are.

You do you, man. It's just weird to criticize people for saying they trust PATFO to pick the best guys and then to come back and criticize people for picking guys you don't think PATFO would pick. Are these folks sheep or pie-in-the-sky dreamers?


The point is, they're not doomed or screwed for the remainder of Wembanyama era if they make a significant trade that you don't approve of relatively soon, just because those other teams, with far less assets, were.

It's like how you can still run a marathon if you cut your foot off. Just because it's possible doesn't mean it doesn't hinder the process. The Spurs prioritizing gathering elite prospects when they are in a position to develop them isn't a period of time they can replicate. I've talked about a sustainable to way to grow talent, and trades like this eat into the seed corn of that talent for very little gain. There are Young-esque talents available for leverage trades every year. If they build organically for another season, there will be a trade like this available. The acceleration option never leaves the table. But once you light that burner, you can't stop it. If you aren't ready to move at that time, you're just burning fuel while sitting in idle.


I don't think anyone rationale is worried about him asking out anytime (relatively) soon, we're concerned about having him for the long term and that means not continuing on the close minded path, at a snail's like pace, that we all know they'd prefer to operate on.

There are a myriad of opinions on this that can't be summed up by either of us speaking for them. There are a hundred positions between "sell the farm" and "do nothing". We don't actually know where the Spurs are sitting on that line right now. Mark Stein and Brian Windhorst don't either. If you think you do, I can't stop you. But I'm also not going to take your interpretation as the basis for reality.


He'd have to be interested (no, he doesn't have a no trade clause, but when you're of his stature, it's how the league works), even in the highly unlikely event he were, he'd cost too much in assets relative to age. The Knicks are the obvious spot for him (I'd say Thunder, but too much baggage), but probably by the '25 off season.

We don't know what Phoenix wants for him. I'm not sure OKC or New York even want him after seeing his recent history. Both of those teams would make the move primarily to contend, and Durant hasn't instilled that much confidence there. The Spurs would be bringing him in as a super mentor for Wemby and Vassell with a chance at them being a dark horse if everything breaks right. With cap space, prospects and assets, the Spurs can be a lot more flexible with the packages they offer or multi-team scenarios they join than those other teams.

Like as a example of a proto-deal:

SAS: Durant
PHX: Murray
ATL: Vassell

Hawks trade Murray out for an actual shooting guard on a great long-term deal who is from the area
Suns shave a critical $20 Million off their salary and get a point-guard
Spurs get a legit co-star and mentor to Wemby and still have the ability to draft or sign a starting SG.

I'm assuming other assets would flow around there, as the Suns and Spurs especially would want to make moves to capitalize on their roster change. But neither New York or OKC can provide the Suns a lesser-star PG help stave on the effects of the second apron as easily. For a team as locked in as the Suns, value plays second fiddle to mechanics.

[CGD]

^ I’ve been following your Durant lark some. I’m warming to it, but I’d like to keep Dev. He’d be the perfect no. 3.

The hope is people get unhappy in PHX quick, and Durant starts to agitate. Build a draft day trade around 24FRP(s) + Keldon as the starting point for talks.

[vy65]

Re: Durant, I didn't realize that Beal (the obvious #3 and prime candidate to trade) has a no-trade clause. It's hard to envision a deal that PHX, its counter-party, and Beal all would agree to. Then, the question becomes what, if anything, does PHX do. If they stand pat, they likely remain a second apron team (https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryantoporek/2024/04/30/how-the-nbas-second-apron-helped-fuel-the-phoenix-suns-playoff-collapse/?sh=58b9f1f5b01d). I don't see a world where they would entertain offers for Booker given his age and length of contract. Do they try to trade Nurkic? What would be the market for that - and - what moves involving him could they do that would be a needle-mover? Moving Nurkic would deplete already minimal depth at the 5. The same needle-moving comments could be made about a Grayson Allen deal too.

This could be wishcasting, but if I were PHX, I'd think long and hard about trying to sell a reset/mini-reset to Booker. He's 27. Adding a high draft pick this year, tanking the 24-25 season in the hopes of winning the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes, and re-orienting for 25-26 sounds a whole lot better than maintaining the status quo, with an aging KD, while being constrained from being able to do much, if anything, due to the second apron.

All of which is to say that PHX has to do something, but it seems like their best option is to do a KD deal for a handful of higher-end roleplayers and 24/25 draft capital.

[Chinook]

^ I’ve been following your Durant lark some. I’m warming to it, but I’d like to keep Dev. He’d be the perfect no. 3.

The hope is people get unhappy in PHX quick, and Durant starts to agitate. Build a draft day trade around 24FRP(s) + Keldon as the starting point for talks.

The idea in that case would be to draft someone like Dillingham to be the third option and bring in a defensive two-guard to balance the lineup. I wouldn't want to trade Vassell either, as he'd benefit from being KD's teammate. Just talking about the ways the Spurs can offer different type of packages than the teams already trying to contend can.

[spurraider21]

Re: Durant, I didn't realize that Beal (the obvious #3 and prime candidate to trade) has a no-trade clause. It's hard to envision a deal that PHX, its counter-party, and Beal all would agree to. Then, the question becomes what, if anything, does PHX do. If they stand pat, they likely remain a second apron team (https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryantoporek/2024/04/30/how-the-nbas-second-apron-helped-fuel-the-phoenix-suns-playoff-collapse/?sh=58b9f1f5b01d). I don't see a world where they would entertain offers for Booker given his age and length of contract. Do they try to trade Nurkic? What would be the market for that - and - what moves involving him could they do that would be a needle-mover? Moving Nurkic would deplete already minimal depth at the 5. The same needle-moving comments could be made about a Grayson Allen deal too.

This could be wishcasting, but if I were PHX, I'd think long and hard about trying to sell a reset/mini-reset to Booker. He's 27. Adding a high draft pick this year, tanking the 24-25 season in the hopes of winning the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes, and re-orienting for 25-26 sounds a whole lot better than maintaining the status quo, with an aging KD, while being constrained from being able to do much, if anything, due to the second apron.

All of which is to say that PHX has to do something, but it seems like their best option is to do a KD deal for a handful of higher-end roleplayers and 24/25 draft capital.
owner basically came out and said booker isn't going anywhere and will be the face of the franchise for the next 10 years or until he retires. short of booker demanding a trade... seems thats not an option for them.

like you said, its going to be virtually impossible to find a deal that the suns, beal, and a receiving team would all agree to, so they are stuck there.

their only way to gain flexibility would be to move durant for whatever haul they still can. wonder if a warriors reunion is possible, where the suns come out of it with some assets. deal with the last couple of years of wiggins' contract for matching purposes, take on kuminga/moody/picks

[vy65]

owner basically came out and said booker isn't going anywhere and will be the face of the franchise for the next 10 years or until he retires. short of booker demanding a trade... seems thats not an option for them.

like you said, its going to be virtually impossible to find a deal that the suns, beal, and a receiving team would all agree to, so they are stuck there.

their only way to gain flexibility would be to move durant for whatever haul they still can. wonder if a warriors reunion is possible, where the suns come out of it with some assets. deal with the last couple of years of wiggins' contract for matching purposes, take on kuminga/moody/picks

Bill Simmons floated that idea. The package would have to be Wiggins/Kuminga/Podz + picks. I’d be very reluctant to do that if I were GSW because that guts your depth, increases reliance on Klay, and depletes your ability to maneuver post Steph.

[scott]

tbqh, I just love seeing GSW and PHX in such terrible positions. I honestly can't believe PHX convinced themselves into taking Beal in the first place.

[R. DeMurre]

tbqh, I just love seeing GSW and PHX in such terrible positions. I honestly can't believe PHX convinced themselves into taking Beal in the first place.


The Beal move seems especially egregious after everybody just finished watching what happened with Westbrook and the Lakers.

[JPB]

owner basically came out and said booker isn't going anywhere and will be the face of the franchise for the next 10 years or until he retires. short of booker demanding a trade... seems thats not an option for them.

like you said, its going to be virtually impossible to find a deal that the suns, beal, and a receiving team would all agree to, so they are stuck there.

their only way to gain flexibility would be to move durant for whatever haul they still can. wonder if a warriors reunion is possible, where the suns come out of it with some assets. deal with the last couple of years of wiggins' contract for matching purposes, take on kuminga/moody/picks

That GS team is broken with Klay and Draymond being a shadow of otheir prime selves. If they were a 4th or 5th seed being one 36 yo. Durant away from contending maybe but they entirely missed the POs... Curry deserves better, but not sure I would pull the trigger for an aging KD and the couple of decent years he may still have is worth it

Evne Kerr seems washed up.

[TD 21]

I personally, I don't buy into either of those premises

You do you, man. It's just weird to criticize people for saying they trust PATFO to pick the best guys and then to come back and criticize people for picking guys you don't think PATFO would pick. Are these folks sheep or pie-in-the-sky dreamers?

Then you're either naive at best or blind at worst to how the Spurs operate.

A little of column A, a little of column B. If you (not specifically, but generally) want to propose things that aren't realistic, knock yourself out. I just don't see the point, but that's me.



The Spurs prioritizing gathering elite prospects when they are in a position to develop them isn't a period of time they can replicate. I've talked about a sustainable to way to grow talent, and trades like this eat into the seed corn of that talent for very little gain. There are Young-esque talents available for leverage trades every year. If they build organically for another season, there will be a trade like this available. The acceleration option never leaves the table. But once you light that burner, you can't stop it. If you aren't ready to move at that time, you're just burning fuel while sitting in idle.

Be prepared for the Craptors to weasel their way out of the pick conveying and the Spurs to focus on their usual perceived choir boys who don't possess dynamism in any area.

Even with minimal upgrades, if Wembanyama plays 71ish games again, they're probably looking at a picking near or around 10ish and none of the other picks figure to be much better (though we'll see what the Hawks do first).

Again with the obsession with Young. I said significant (as in starter caliber) player, but since you brought him up, no it's not easy to get stars who fit and you clearly have the assets that the opposing team would want.

Just look at the current bunch that are or are thought to possibly come available soon outside of the names discussed ad nauseam: LaVine, Towns, Ingram, Randle.



There are a myriad of opinions on this that can't be summed up by either of us speaking for them. There are a hundred positions between "sell the farm" and "do nothing". We don't actually know where the Spurs are sitting on that line right now. Mark Stein and Brian Windhorst don't either. If you think you do, I can't stop you. But I'm also not going to take your interpretation as the basis for reality.

I'm only basing mine off of how the organization has operated for 30 years under PATFO, with the only caveat being that they've never been in this position . . but hey, if you want to dismiss that based on ?, go for it.



We don't know what Phoenix wants for him. The Spurs would be bringing him in as a super mentor for Wemby and Vassell.

Like as a example of a proto-deal:

SAS: Durant
PHX: Murray
ATL: Vassell

But neither New York or OKC can provide the Suns a lesser-star PG help stave on the effects of the second apron as easily. For a team as locked in as the Suns, value plays second fiddle to mechanics.

Again, it's highly unlikely he comes available until at least the trade deadline, but more likely next off season. He's not a mentor type and giving up Vassell for a then going on 37 year old, expiring contract Durant, who likely wouldn't have any interest in being here, would be absurd.

You clearly haven't been paying to attention to Ishbia (owner). The Suns focus will be keeping Booker happy and since they're stuck with Beal, that means finding someone who can help them remain in pseudo contention. Randle and draft capital is perfect for that situation, while the Thunder can offer Giddey, salary filler and draft capital.

[CGD]

Re: Durant, I didn't realize that Beal (the obvious #3 and prime candidate to trade) has a no-trade clause. It's hard to envision a deal that PHX, its counter-party, and Beal all would agree to. Then, the question becomes what, if anything, does PHX do. If they stand pat, they likely remain a second apron team (https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryantoporek/2024/04/30/how-the-nbas-second-apron-helped-fuel-the-phoenix-suns-playoff-collapse/?sh=58b9f1f5b01d). I don't see a world where they would entertain offers for Booker given his age and length of contract. Do they try to trade Nurkic? What would be the market for that - and - what moves involving him could they do that would be a needle-mover? Moving Nurkic would deplete already minimal depth at the 5. The same needle-moving comments could be made about a Grayson Allen deal too.

This could be wishcasting, but if I were PHX, I'd think long and hard about trying to sell a reset/mini-reset to Booker. He's 27. Adding a high draft pick this year, tanking the 24-25 season in the hopes of winning the Cooper Flagg sweepstakes, and re-orienting for 25-26 sounds a whole lot better than maintaining the status quo, with an aging KD, while being constrained from being able to do much, if anything, due to the second apron.

All of which is to say that PHX has to do something, but it seems like their best option is to do a KD deal for a handful of higher-end roleplayers and 24/25 draft capital.

For these reasons (Beal and Booker won’t be moved), the only options are to (a) stand pat, or (b) trade Durant. Complicating matters is that they face a decision of Royce O’Neal.

You have to think they’ll scapegoat Vogel, but I don’t think that’ll be enough to fix their dumpster fire.

[Chinook]

Then you're either naive at best or blind at worst to how the Spurs operate.

A little of column A, a little of column B. If you (not specifically, but generally) want to propose things that aren't realistic, knock yourself out. I just don't see the point, but that's me.

You have a thread to push what you think is realistic, and last I checked, you policed it pretty heavily for who "understood the assignment". That you come into a thread with the opposite conceit maintaining the same mindset suggests you may not "understand this assignment." This thread is for unlikely scenarios. Fans are free to make their own scenarios, which few restrictions. I'm not going to belabor the point, but setting aside minor elements like what PATFO would want in a player is exactly what this thread calls for.

A lot of this is cookout talk, but I think you need to go back and look into Portis before assuming he's too "black" for the Spurs. I think you'll find he's far more of a "Pop" player than you're assuming. Part of what happens when you try to pass off an interpretation as the basis for reality is you start to not take responsibility for having that interpretation. You should question those assumptions, because if you did, you'd find a lot of counter evidence. Otherwise, you just call other people naive without ever providing any defense for your stance other than "Just look and you'll agree with me."


Be prepared for the Craptors to weasel their way out of the pick conveying

Man, the Leonard trade was six years ago.


Again with the obsession with Young. I said significant (as in starter caliber) player, but since you brought him up, no it's not easy to get stars who fit and you clearly have the assets that the opposing team would want.

Just look at the current bunch that are or are thought to possibly come available soon outside of the names discussed ad nauseam: LaVine, Towns, Ingram, Randle.

I'm not obsessed with Young. I used "Young-esque" to capture him, Mitchell, Markannen and maybe Bridges. You don't get to claim "starting caliber" as something we're debating. There are more than 100 starters in the league. There's a massive difference between them and the class and cohort of player in question.

Yes, it's pretty easy to get those stars when you're willing to make an all-in trade for one. So many of them have been traded recently. Lavine was totally obtainable if the Spurs wanted to fork over a destructive amount of trade capital to secure him. Even these particular Young-esque players are likely to still be on the market or to have returned to the market within the next few years.



Again, it's highly unlikely he comes available until at least the trade deadline, but more likely next off season. He's not a mentor type and giving up Vassell for a then going on 37 year old, expiring contract Durant, who likely wouldn't have any interest in being here, would be absurd.

I don't think you've looked into Durant if you think this. Dude has talked quite a bit about enjoying teaching basketball. It would be like saying Kobe and Duncan weren't mentor types. Durant's going to resist taking a step back to a younger SF if a team tries to push him down the chart. But Vassell wouldn't be taking his spot. The same is true for Wemby. Don't mix up the structure I showed to demonstrate how the Spurs could outbid contenders with what the "idea" KD trade is. I think anyone who wants Durant wants him, Vassell and Wemby together. However, there are pathways forward if that trade were to happen.


You clearly haven't been paying to attention to Ishbia (owner). The Suns focus will be keeping Booker happy and since they're stuck with Beal, that means finding someone who can help them remain in pseudo contention. Randle and draft capital is perfect for that situation, while the Thunder can offer Giddey, salary filler and draft capital.

I don't know why you think Giddy or Randle would be more attractive to them than Murray. The Suns badly need a PG, and Booker doesn't have the same limitations than Young has in terms of fit. Add in the large TE or the chance for the Suns to dodge the second apron, it's a much better rebuilding situation than the Knicks would offer. OKC would be unwilling to give up their actual good players, which is the primary thing Phoenix would seem to want. They could offer real savings, but the Suns would have to spend a certain amount of those savings on win-now players anyway. We don't know which approach would be a better deal.

[lrrr]

Trading for Mitchell (ideal) or DJM (close 2nd choice) to upgrage the PG position. Keldon would probably need to be included to makes salaries match.
Next, pry Herb Jones from the Pels (not sure if realistic). I'd imagine they are quite high on him, so could cost much more than matching his 12M salary. Failing that, or in addition, trade for Matisse Thybulle. Hear the Blazers don't want to pay the tax, a salary dump could be possible, (throw in some 2nds if they need convincing). Devonte's non-guaranteed would be useful here.
A starting 5 of DJM, Vassell, Jones or Thybulle, Sochan and Wemby would be an elite defensive lineup.
Get Sochan to improve his 3-pt shot.
Draft one of the Kentucky guards, I really don't care which one. Just PLEASE not another short non-shooter to satisfy Pops quest to find the next Tony Parker.

[Sugus]

Draft a wing instead of a PG, and get Chris Paul, not only to get the ball to Wemby but also to teach him the "game within the game" stuff. Trade a far-out pick for proven veteran shooting, someone to replace Champagnie in the starting lineup. Some other personnel changes here and there.

Then go into the season, and gauge at the trade deadline. Next year's FA looks like the real prize -- I'd love DWHITE back tbh. Wonder how much he'll cost to get.

[scott]

Draft a wing instead of a PG, and get Chris Paul, not only to get the ball to Wemby but also to teach him the "game within the game" stuff. Trade a far-out pick for proven veteran shooting, someone to replace Champagnie in the starting lineup. Some other personnel changes here and there.

Then go into the season, and gauge at the trade deadline. Next year's FA looks like the real prize -- I'd love DWHITE back tbh. Wonder how much he'll cost to get.

Personally, I'm hoping the FO isn't putting much stock in the 25 FA class because I don't think many of those guys will end up actual FAs. Extensions will start to roll in this summer and that impressive FA class will quickly thin out to look a lot like this one (IMO). Extension rules (among other things) have essentially killed FA at this point.

[TD 21]

You have a thread to push what you think is realistic, and last I checked, you policed it pretty heavily for who "understood the assignment". That you come into a thread with the opposite conceit maintaining the same mindset suggests you may not "understand this assignment." This thread is for unlikely scenarios. Fans are free to make their own scenarios, which few restrictions. I'm not going to belabor the point, but setting aside minor elements like what PATFO would want in a player is exactly what this thread calls for.

A lot of this is cookout talk, but I think you need to go back and look into Portis before assuming he's too "black" for the Spurs. I think you'll find he's far more of a "Pop" player than you're assuming. Part of what happens when you try to pass off an interpretation as the basis for reality is you start to not take responsibility for having that interpretation. You should question those assumptions, because if you did, you'd find a lot of counter evidence. Otherwise, you just call other people naive without ever providing any defense for your stance other than "Just look and you'll agree with me."

This again? All I did was make one of my patented sarcastic comments, which as usual you took overly seriously, threw a hissy fit, took a bunch of shots, pontificated and are now pretending I don't understand something that is basic when I was merely agreeing with another poster.

Says the guy telling me, who actually follows the league closely, to "look into Portis" without actually saying anything specific to counter what I said.


Man, the Leonard trade was six years ago.

Yeah and they're still as shady as ever. Instead of your preconceived notion of why I don't like them, maybe you and others who have some issue with it should be asking yourself how I have some of the information I do instead of questioning virtually everything I say.



I'm not obsessed with Young. I used "Young-esque" to capture him, Mitchell, Markannen and maybe Bridges. You don't get to claim "starting caliber" as something we're debating. There are more than 100 starters in the league. There's a massive difference between them and the class and cohort of player in question.

Yes, it's pretty easy to get those stars when you're willing to make an all-in trade for one. So many of them have been traded recently. Lavine was totally obtainable if the Spurs wanted to fork over a destructive amount of trade capital to secure him. Even these particular Young-esque players are likely to still be on the market or to have returned to the market within the next few years.

Again, starting caliber is what I meant, so I'm "claiming" it despite your desire to make it about Young again.

Right, but do those other names fit at all?



I don't think you've looked into Durant if you think this. Dude has talked quite a bit about enjoying teaching basketball. It would be like saying Kobe and Duncan weren't mentor types. Durant's going to resist taking a step back to a younger SF if a team tries to push him down the chart. But Vassell wouldn't be taking his spot. The same is true for Wemby. Don't mix up the structure I showed to demonstrate how the Spurs could outbid contenders with what the "idea" KD trade is. I think anyone who wants Durant wants him, Vassell and Wemby together. However, there are pathways forward if that trade were to happen.

Yeah, within' a perceived championship context. The notion that he'd be fine spending his twilight here is ludicrous for so many reasons.


I don't know why you think Giddy or Randle would be more attractive to them than Murray. The Suns badly need a PG, and Booker doesn't have the same limitations than Young has in terms of fit. Add in the large TE or the chance for the Suns to dodge the second apron, it's a much better rebuilding situation than the Knicks would offer. OKC would be unwilling to give up their actual good players, which is the primary thing Phoenix would seem to want. They could offer real savings, but the Suns would have to spend a certain amount of those savings on win-now players anyway. We don't know which approach would be a better deal.

Giddey, possibly Dort for salary/value and a portion of their unprecedented draft capital would be far better than Murray and ?

Randle and significant draft capital could actually improve them depending on what they did with the latter.