Stephon Castle - 2024 NBA Draft Prospect

[Mr. Body]

Castle seems like the most reasonable pick at #4, but I most definitely don't want him and Jeremy playing together as long as they're non-shooters.
If we get rid of Keldon, Jeremy would be a perfect sixth man.

I'd like someone to enlighten me, but I just don't see a functional lineup with both Castle and Jeremy. Just doesn't work.

It probably doesn't work. If you get an exceptional perimeter scorer (Dillingham at his most upsideiest) then I think it potentially could work, expecting Vassell or another good spot-up shooter as the fifth guy. The theory is that Wembanyama has +++ gravity, Dillingham (at his most upsideiest) has + or even ++ gravity. So that's lethal enough that having Sochan and Castle abuse mismatches and cutting/setting screens and moving, the Spurs offense is hard to deal with even with two guys not totally spacing the floor.

It's more of an old school set-up but works in theory because you have an Alien making everything awful to handle. In essence, the Spurs wouldn't need a modern offense because of Wemby but then their defense is incredible.

[LeBowen]

It probably doesn't work. If you get an exceptional perimeter scorer (Dillingham at his most upsideiest) then I think it potentially could work, expecting Vassell or another good spot-up shooter as the fifth guy. The theory is that Wembanyama has +++ gravity, Dillingham (at his most upsideiest) has + or even ++ gravity. So that's lethal enough that having Sochan and Castle abuse mismatches and cutting/setting screens and moving, the Spurs offense is hard to deal with even with two guys not totally spacing the floor.

It's more of an old school set-up but works in theory because you have an Alien making everything awful to handle. In essence, the Spurs wouldn't need a modern offense because of Wemby but then their defense is incredible.

If Wemby continues developing on this trajectory, anything will work, but we want to make it as easy for him as possible.
Having two players who will be dared to shoot in 2024? I don't know about that.
Especially since you want Wemby playing in the paint as much as possible.

As for Castle, if he could have Butler-like development trajectory on offense, he'll be a parennial all-star and one of the best two way players in the league.
We just need him to have a reliable mid-range early on.

[rankingtear]

If the Spurs trully put more emphasis on small sample size workouts instead of months of evidence, they are fucking up, tbh.

Depends, there was a story where ORL brought Jabari for a workout and he was so bad in the ball handling part that they had to pivot to Banchero. There is barely any PNR tape with Castle you can probably have more in 1 workout than his whole college season.

[z0sa]

It’s hard for me to get excited about this guy Castle, watching him straight up looking to pass off wide open 3s. Shot 2 per at a very low mark. His release is sooo flat and has a slight hitch it seems like, at least sometimes. Also saw some sequences where he travelled or turned it over trying to make something happen when he’s set up beautifully wide open beyond 3.

Just sag off of him and his entire game seems like it collapses. I know he’s likely quality elsewhere but I don’t want Sochan 2.0, officially a pass at 4 for me but would love to be wrong about him (if we draft him).

[rankingtear]

I think he is a similar prospect to Jalen Hood-Schifino if he played lead guard in college. Moves like a star and built like a star.

[onechance87]

It’s hard for me to get excited about this guy Castle, watching him straight up looking to pass off wide open 3s. Shot 2 per at a very low mark. His release is sooo flat and has a slight hitch it seems like, at least sometimes. Also saw some sequences where he travelled or turned it over trying to make something happen when he’s set up beautifully wide open beyond 3.

Just sag off of him and his entire game seems like it collapses. I know he’s likely quality elsewhere but I don’t want Sochan 2.0, officially a pass at 4 for me but would love to be wrong about him (if we draft him).

thats why i want carter over castle.Carter will shoot with confidence open or not.He will take it to the rim with confidence.He will guard
with confidence not backing down.Hes like a smaller derrick white.Hes the perfect fit with wemby imo

[Extra Stout]

Evaluating players one year out of high school is hard. Back in the days when players stayed in college, the very best ones developed so much over two or three years. Now, so much of it is guesswork.

A Castle who played three years at Connecticut might have developed a shot and become an obvious future All-Star. Or, he might have plateaued and become an obvious fringe role player. It was up to the player to prove their mettle. Now, the risk of all that uncertainty falls upon the drafting team.

There are pluses and minuses. Diamonds in the rough can be found deeper in drafts. But high draft picks become nerve-wracking. An organization that is mediocre at scouting and player development can stay stuck in neutral indefinitely, even with high pick after high pick. Hopefully the current Spurs leadership is better than mediocre.

[objective]

This video I mentioned before, compares Castle to Jarrett Culver as far as point guard skills go


https://youtu.be/3Ku62cxnZRU?si=pxAFniGysUbxqgZl

[SouthernFryd]

I don't know how this guy is so high in the draft. Maybe his agent is greasing palms? I just don't see him, at this point, doing anything at the NBA level.

He should have at least had a shot down by now. Doesn't have to be a 3 point, but some sort of shot. Guards need to be able to shoot these days, not just a drive. And prospects should have one ready to go...not ready to "develop" one. Ready to go. Like his Jimmy Butler type of physicality, but he's not even close to being ready.

[Pauleta14]

Interesting interview of Dan Huley with Russilo about Castle

The doubters should take a listen :)

https://x.com/EricSal_7/status/1803987773239578755

[CGD]

Interesting interview of Dan Huley with Russilo about Castle

The doubters should take a listen :)

https://x.com/EricSal_7/status/1803987773239578755

Perfect Spurs in my view. I dont think its an accident that its coming out that WAS is now more interested in Castle at 2. This, and the fact that people are starting to throw some shade at the French prospects.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah Castle is absolutely the guy but I'm afraid Washington may nab him.

[Pauleta14]

Perfect Spurs in my view. I dont think its an accident that its coming out that WAS is now more interested in Castle at 2. This, and the fact that people are starting to throw some shade at the French prospects.

I know Harris is often full of shit but he mentioned Castle being a potential target of ATL... smh

It could make sense if they anticipate the departure of either Trae or Dj

ffs 5 more days to wait... :lol

[Mr. Body]

I know Harris is often full of shit but he mentioned Castle being a potential target of ATL... smh

It could make sense if they anticipate the departure of either Trae or Dj

ffs 5 more days to wait... :lol

IMO they've been trying to get the Spurs to trade up. At first they tried Risacher and that seems not to have worked. Now they're dangling Castle.

[rascal]

IMO they've been trying to get the Spurs to trade up. At first they tried Risacher and that seems not to have worked. Now they're dangling Castle.

They're desperate to get their unprotected picks back.

[exstatic]

Yeah Castle is absolutely the guy but I'm afraid Washington may nab him.

I’m seeing kind of a duplication between him and Avdija.

[Extra Stout]

IMO they've been trying to get the Spurs to trade up. At first they tried Risacher and that seems not to have worked. Now they're dangling Castle.
Assuming the Spurs like all of Risacher, Castle, Sarr, and Sheppard, Atlanta is just farting into the wind.

[Mr. Body]

Assuming the Spurs like all of Risacher, Castle, Sarr, and Sheppard, Atlanta is just farting into the wind.

I don't think they'll get a bite. Atlanta is desperate to move down, and that makes sense. Just reading between the lines, the Spurs didn't bite when Risacher was getting dangled.

[Mr. Body]

I’m seeing kind of a duplication between him and Avdija.

I agree, but the Wizards aren't in a place to think about fit. (For all the talk about how drafts at the high lottery are about BPA, this draft has become massively about fit.) At their spot, looking at Sarr, Sheppard, Castle, etc., the best pick may be Castle. I think Sarr wants to go to Washington and they probably like him best too, but it's not a total given. Avdija/Coulibaly/Castle are a pretty good basis. Avdija/Coulibaly/Sarr probably is better.

[FireMicoHalili]

Assuming the Spurs like all of Risacher, Castle, Sarr, and Sheppard, Atlanta is just farting into the wind.
they're the ones who NEED to trade down so it's natural for them to stir up waters. Nice to see them fail to even get a nibble lmao they know they have to contend the next few years.

[BatManu20]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GQm1SxDXMAAS1DG?format=jpg&name=large

[Strategic]

I’m more concerned with the fit with VW and Vassell, not Sochan. Sochan is on course to be a 4th or 5th offensive option. He was as awkward next to Victor the last game of the season as he was for the season opener. He’s not a point guard, not a rim protector, and sometimes looks out of place. He was able to raise his 3 point percentage up to 30 his second year with opposing teams’ worst defender sagging off. Not really pushing for Castle but if we’re working around Sochan’s shortcomings maybe the team needs a floor leader to point Jeremy where to stand on O. That’s how ridiculous some of these comments read. I don’t think it’s time to move on from Sochan. I would rather the team focus on contributing to their strengths and Jeremy isn’t on that list.

[DPG21920]

Yeah Castle is absolutely the guy but I'm afraid Washington may nab him.

If it goes Clingan castle Sarr I’d be thrilled with Reed and SA can trade 8 for 5 to secure Risacher possibly

[Extra Stout]

I don't know how this guy is so high in the draft. Maybe his agent is greasing palms? I just don't see him, at this point, doing anything at the NBA level.

He should have at least had a shot down by now. Doesn't have to be a 3 point, but some sort of shot. Guards need to be able to shoot these days, not just a drive. And prospects should have one ready to go...not ready to "develop" one. Ready to go. Like his Jimmy Butler type of physicality, but he's not even close to being ready.


I think it’s the woke mind virus

[CGD]

IMO they've been trying to get the Spurs to trade up. At first they tried Risacher and that seems not to have worked. Now they're dangling Castle.

Absolutely, and i wonder is WAS is trying the same playbook now too.

[KobesAchilles]

People on this board really don’t want to get with the current NBA. Boston just won a chip with 3 point shooting. Half of their attempts were 3 point shots. Even if you say that they had defenders who can switch (which obviously they did) they had the shooting to go along with it. This dude will never be a shooter. In a team of non-shooters. Imagine having 3 point snipers in Dilly, Reed, and Knect, and Risacher and coming into next season ranked 29th in made 3s. We aren’t going to win shit this way. Surround Wemby with shooters ffs

[rascal]

It will be a bad draft if the Spurs don't come away with either Sarr or Castle.

[rascal]

People on this board really don’t want to get with the current NBA. Boston just won a chip with 3 point shooting. Half of their attempts were 3 point shots. Even if you say that they had defenders who can switch (which obviously they did) they had the shooting to go along with it. This dude will never be a shooter. In a team of non-shooters. Imagine having 3 point snipers in Dilly, Reed, and Knect, and Risacher and coming into next season ranked 29th in made 3s. We aren’t going to win shit this way. Surround Wemby with shooters ffs

People think these Kentucky shrimps are going to shoot as well in the NBA as they did in college and just adding a couple of college shooters with huge defiencies in other parts of their game will turn the Spurs around.

We saw how Sheppard shriveled up in the NCAA tournament and was a no show and people in here want to burn a pick on him.

[LeBowen]

Boston just won a chip with 3 point shooting. Half of their attempts were 3 point shots.

They shot 70-207 in the finals. Good for 33%.
Everyone except Derrick was streaky from deep through the entire playoffs.


Even if you say that they had defenders who can switch (which obviously they did) they had the shooting to go along with it.

Agreed.
But defense won them the ring, not shooting.


This dude will never be a shooter.

I'm not saying Castle can get on that level, because his shot is even more questionable, but Derrick, Jrue and Brown were all subpar shooters in their early years.


In a team of non-shooters.

We don't have a team. We have Wemby, probably Devin and Jeremy.
Noone else has a good chance to stay on the roster long-term.
Maybe Tre, but he also made some big shooting improvement.
Jeremy is the only non-shooter and he's far from being a guaranteed long-term piece. If he doesn't develop a reliable shot, he'll be 7th/8th man in rotation when we start competing.


Imagine having 3 point snipers in Dilly, Reed, and Knect, and Risacher and coming into next season ranked 29th in made 3s. We aren’t going to win shit this way. Surround Wemby with shooters ffs

Every draft is a gamble, especially this one.
Either we gamble Castle develops a shot or we gamble Dillingham becomes a servicable defender.
Sheppard is every stat nerd'd favorite player, but eye test just isn't there. I'd rather take Dillingham and gamble on his defense.
Knecht is 23 and can't do much other than shoot. Bad defender.
We don't know if Risacher will be available.

I'd take Castle because I'm not that high on Jeremy and I don't think he'll be a long-term starter.
A lot of good players were bad shooters early on and developed their shot.
But very few bad defenders developed into elite defenders.

Back to Boston.
I'd say that they have zero elite shooters in their starting lineup.
Derrick was their best shooter and noone would put him into that elite shooter bracket.

But on the other end, three of them are elite defenders, Tatum is above average and KP is an elite rim protector.

[KobesAchilles]

People think these Kentucky shrimps are going to shoot as well in the NBA as they did in college and just adding a couple of college shooters with huge defiencies in other parts of their game will turn the Spurs around.

We saw how Sheppard shriveled up in the NCAA tournament and was a no show and people in here want to burn a pick on him.
Yeah I expect Sheppard to get better. He isn’t at his peak. He has so much skill that we need. He isn’t even a bad defender. People just are projecting that he is one. Castle isn’t even a point guard. We don’t need a combo guard, we need someone who can actually run the show. Both Dilly and Sheppard have shown they have the ability to do that just not the consistency. That takes practice and time. But Castle has so much to learn on the offense that I swear it’s like the same thing I said about Sochan. Everyone said how easy it is to learn how to play PG and run and offense and it’s hard af to do. You have to have a knack for it. Or come in with one elite thing offensively. The only player I can really think of that came into the league as a PG and just turned his game around with no offensive game at all is GP.

And please don’t bring up TP bc he was waaaay faster than Castle with the ball in his hands and could get to the rim at ease and was a one man fast break from day one.

[spurraider21]

It will be a bad draft if the Spurs don't come away with either Sarr or Castle.
nah. there are plenty of good scenarios where we land neither

[dbestpro]

Castle will develop his three and be the best player from this draft. His history of hard work, humility and determination along with the physical tools is impressive. He will either be the one we got lucky on or the one that got away.

[objective]

I have difficulty parsing just how good Castle is and how good the situation was to make things better for him

He came into a great situation with mature players who knew their role and executed. Title winning team. He didn't screw things up which is good, but I wonder how he would have looked in the Ignite where everyone ran around with their head cut off, only 1 shooter and a bunch of bricklayers, lots of freshman age players trying to get their own. Would people be so forgiving of his flaws?

[z0sa]

I have difficulty parsing just how good Castle is and how good the situation was to make things better for him

He came into a great situation with mature players who knew their role and executed. Title winning team. He didn't screw things up which is good, but I wonder how he would have looked in the Ignite where everyone ran around with their head cut off, only 1 shooter and a bunch of bricklayers, lots of freshman age players trying to get their own. Would people be so forgiving of his flaws?

More or less, this is what scares me. The Spurs aren't a squad full of guys who know how to win and/or are veterans now. They were good on defense with Wemby in, so Castle does get bonus points there - we would definitely improve defensively with him on the court. That said, unfortunately we are one of the youngest and worst clubs in the League. Will Castle really be able to make the same, much less more, magic happen on this type of team? Lots of people seem to think so, and if we draft him, I hope they're right. I'm not sold, though, tbh.

[rankingtear]

Sochan and Castle to me are competitors for the same spot. Neither are really projected to be volume shooters. I think there is 1 spot for that guy in the SL since Wemby would operate inside a lot. There is less friction with Sochan if he could just be a good wide open spot up guy than Castle working towards a Jrue Holiday outcome. The pelicans had their share of team building problems with Jrue running the show even with his elite defense and playmaking.

[rascal]

Sochan and Castle to me are competitors for the same spot. Neither are really projected to be volume shooters. I think there is 1 spot for that guy in the SL since Wemby would operate inside a lot. There is less friction with Sochan if he could just be a good wide open spot up guy than Castle working towards a Jrue Holiday outcome. The pelicans had their share of team building problems with Jrue running the show even with his elite defense and playmaking.

Castle looks like a better natural defender than Sochan. Sochan gets lost on defense often and isn't even in the right spot on the court as a defender.

Sochan also doesn't have the foot speed that Castle has to stay with quick players.

[spurraider21]

what i will say about Castle is that he does seem like a player who is unlikely to totally bust and be out of the league. think even if things go poorly for him he will have a role in the league

[AFBlue]

I think the Sheppard vs. Castle debate is interesting. Not sure why people feel the need to tear one down to build the other. I personally love both prospects. I'd choose Sheppard for the proven shooting, but I'd love Castle as well

[DAF86]

what i will say about Castle is that he does seem like a player who is unlikely to totally bust and be out of the league. think even if things go poorly for him he will have a role in the league

What role can he really have if he never learns to shoot? He can be excellent on every other facet of the game, but if he can't keep defenses honest, he will become unplayable.

[baseline bum]

I think the Sheppard vs. Castle debate is interesting. Not sure why people feel the need to tear one down to build the other. I personally love both prospects. I'd choose Sheppard for the proven shooting, but I'd love Castle as well

Yeah I'm taking whichever of the two is still there at 4, assuming Risacher is gone. Between the two Castle is my first choice but would be really happy to get Sheppard too.

[exstatic]

I have difficulty parsing just how good Castle is and how good the situation was to make things better for him

He came into a great situation with mature players who knew their role and executed. Title winning team. He didn't screw things up which is good, but I wonder how he would have looked in the Ignite where everyone ran around with their head cut off, only 1 shooter and a bunch of bricklayers, lots of freshman age players trying to get their own. Would people be so forgiving of his flaws?

What flaws does he have, besides his shooting? He’s the closest thing to a complete, right sized player in the draft.

[exstatic]

Sochan and Castle to me are competitors for the same spot. Neither are really projected to be volume shooters. I think there is 1 spot for that guy in the SL since Wemby would operate inside a lot. There is less friction with Sochan if he could just be a good wide open spot up guy than Castle working towards a Jrue Holiday outcome. The pelicans had their share of team building problems with Jrue running the show even with his elite defense and playmaking.

Jrue was never the problem. He proved that by going to Milwaukee and winning a title, and then going to Boston and winning another one. He’s an extremely low friction high efficiency player on offense, and a multiple time All D player. The problem in New Orleans was that Anthony Davis wasn’t an alpha, so it didn’t matter how the table was set.

[T Park]

People on this board really don’t want to get with the current NBA. Boston just won a chip with 3 point shooting. Half of their attempts were 3 point shots. Even if you say that they had defenders who can switch (which obviously they did) they had the shooting to go along with it. This dude will never be a shooter. In a team of non-shooters. Imagine having 3 point snipers in Dilly, Reed, and Knect, and Risacher and coming into next season ranked 29th in made 3s. We aren’t going to win shit this way. Surround Wemby with shooters ffs


Glad we’re doing this nonsense with a 19 year old on miniscule shooting attempts .

Yeah he could NEVER improve his shooting.

[objective]

What flaws does he have, besides his shooting? He’s the closest thing to a complete, right sized player in the draft.

It's mostly the shooting. But I put that to cover everything that people might see, there's plenty of videos and articles out there. I have seen critiques of him not being an elite athlete, not having point guard level skills, etc.

Arguably as a wing player Holland is just as complete besides the shooting and touch at the rim. Gold medal winner for usa youth teams, Great size, great motor, elite athlete, gets downhill, huge defensive event creation, promising playmaking as a wing. But few are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt it seems, being 8 months younger than Castle and being the number 1 in a bad situation doesn't matter.

[SpursFan86]

Look, I am a big fan of Castle and would love to end up with him…but you can’t just casually dismiss having no jumper as if it’s an afterthought :lol Especially considering we just watched the Spurs be one of the worst shooting teams in the league this past season.

There’s also reason to doubt he can be a legitimate PG who consistently initiates and generates offense. He has a great BBIQ and has shown nice flashes of passing so there’s hope but it’s not a given by any means.

If he struggles at PG in the NBA + doesn’t develop his jumper, suddenly it’s a pretty brutal fit considering the rest of our squad. Not saying he’s not worth the risk, but acting like he’s a no-brainer slam dunk over any other options just seems a little silly IMO.

[Mr. Body]

It's mostly the shooting. But I put that to cover everything that people might see, there's plenty of videos and articles out there. I have seen critiques of him not being an elite athlete, not having point guard level skills, etc.

Arguably as a wing player Holland is just as complete besides the shooting and touch at the rim. Gold medal winner for usa youth teams, Great size, great motor, elite athlete, gets downhill, huge defensive event creation, promising playmaking as a wing. But few are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt it seems, being 8 months younger than Castle and being the number 1 in a bad situation doesn't matter.

In the end, I just can't compare Holland to Castle. There's no way Holland could do what Castle did on UConn. There's simply a different level of impact, discipline, and understanding of the game. Holland is disruptive on defense, sure, and has great instincts there, but he was awful on offense, tunnel-visioned and not really understanding much nuance. Of course much of this is on the side of coaching, but he also just doesn't show higher level understanding of the game that Castle did. People seem to deeply discount or totally ignore both the tremendous defensive impact Castle had and the exceptional BBIQ. Holland is going to be erratic for a while, if he ever gets complicated sets. Castle won't. He's going to get NBA level O and D immediately.

[Mr. Body]

It's mostly the shooting. But I put that to cover everything that people might see, there's plenty of videos and articles out there. I have seen critiques of him not being an elite athlete, not having point guard level skills, etc.

Arguably as a wing player Holland is just as complete besides the shooting and touch at the rim. Gold medal winner for usa youth teams, Great size, great motor, elite athlete, gets downhill, huge defensive event creation, promising playmaking as a wing. But few are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt it seems, being 8 months younger than Castle and being the number 1 in a bad situation doesn't matter.

In the end, I just can't compare Holland to Castle. There's no way Holland could do what Castle did on UConn. There's simply a different level of impact, discipline, and understanding of the game. Holland is disruptive on defense, sure, and has great instincts there, but he was awful on offense, tunnel-visioned and not really understanding much nuance. Of course much of this is on the side of coaching, but he also just doesn't show higher level understanding of the game that Castle did. People seem to deeply discount or totally ignore both the tremendous defensive impact Castle had and the exceptional BBIQ. Holland is going to be erratic for a while, if he ever gets complicated sets. Castle won't. He's going to get NBA level O and D immediately.

[objective]

In the end, I just can't compare Holland to Castle. There's no way Holland could do what Castle did on UConn. There's simply a different level of impact, discipline, and understanding of the game. Holland is disruptive on defense, sure, and has great instincts there, but he was awful on offense, tunnel-visioned and not really understanding much nuance. Of course much of this is on the side of coaching, but he also just doesn't show higher level understanding of the game that Castle did. People seem to deeply discount or totally ignore both the tremendous defensive impact Castle had and the exceptional BBIQ. Holland is going to be erratic for a while, if he ever gets complicated sets. Castle won't. He's going to get NBA level O and D immediately.

I'm not comparing them as players so much as situations. Obviously Holland wouldn't be a connective passer want to be point guard at UConn. But just him as a prototype SF he fits the bill (and could bust into a 6-8 Okogie). As Castle might fit the profile of a big on ball creator, I don't think he would have made the Ignite g-league champs

Castle had the benefit of joining a great team with great coaching. If the Spurs take him, he won't be getting that benefit here. He might find himself treated like Derrick White and jerked around lol

This Spurs team is a closer analog to the Ignite than UConn.

[spurraider21]

if my only concern with castle was his shooting, i could buy that a guy like him who is a hard worker/character guy will put the time in the lab and get better, nor do i think his shot looks incredibly broken.

the reason i dont like him QUITE as much as others here is the point guard thing. he is a good ballhandler for an off-guard or wing. i dont think his handle is tight or creative enough for lead guard duties. he also doesnt have much burst or a great first step. its kind of just bully-ball with him and hesi/euro step moves. not particularly explosive when attacking the rim. he doesnt have the wiggle/shake/handle to get by most defenders, and then in the pick and roll game, the shooting rears its ugly head since defenders can just go below the screen comfortably.

he also doesnt have a midrange/pullup game to punish sagging defenders. theres just way more for him to get good at to be a viable PG than just to get by as a defensive/playmaking wing like lance stephenson

[rascal]

Castle is a no brainer. If he's there at 4 you take him. He is already an elite defender and fills a need for the spurs who often got cooked by the top pgs in the league.
His offense is solid, shot .544 on 2 point attempts and is a strong finisher at the rim. Spurs are lucky his 3 point % is low or else they wouldn't even have a shot to draft him at 4.

Castle gives you the flexibility in future roster construction(can still get a fututre PG and use Castle at times at both the 1 and 2) with his versatility that will sell the Spurs into taking him.

[exstatic]

It's mostly the shooting. But I put that to cover everything that people might see, there's plenty of videos and articles out there. I have seen critiques of him not being an elite athlete, not having point guard level skills, etc.

Arguably as a wing player Holland is just as complete besides the shooting and touch at the rim. Gold medal winner for usa youth teams, Great size, great motor, elite athlete, gets downhill, huge defensive event creation, promising playmaking as a wing. But few are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt it seems, being 8 months younger than Castle and being the number 1 in a bad situation doesn't matter.

Russillo and Veccini raised questions about Holland’s processing speed on both sides of the ball in that podcast. That’s kind of a huge bust red flag for a kid with nearly zero fundamentals.

[exstatic]

Look, I am a big fan of Castle and would love to end up with him…but you can’t just casually dismiss having no jumper as if it’s an afterthought :lol Especially considering we just watched the Spurs be one of the worst shooting teams in the league this past season.

There’s also reason to doubt he can be a legitimate PG who consistently initiates and generates offense. He has a great BBIQ and has shown nice flashes of passing so there’s hope but it’s not a given by any means.

If he struggles at PG in the NBA + doesn’t develop his jumper, suddenly it’s a pretty brutal fit considering the rest of our squad. Not saying he’s not worth the risk, but acting like he’s a no-brainer slam dunk over any other options just seems a little silly IMO.

This draft is a hot mess, but of all the players, he has more boxes checked and the right sized body than anyone else in the draft. I’m not dismissing his lack of shooting, but it is literally his only barrier to being a really good player. His size also gives him upside tails as a wing or off guard. To me, he is the no brainer in this very flawed draft, which is not the same as can’t miss. Veccini breaks his draft into tiers, but it’s not based on the players in the draft, but a set of criteria. Tier 1 is likely All NBA. He has none in this draft. Tier 2 is likely All Star. He also has none in this draft. It’s a grab bag, and none of these guys might pan out. I just think Castle give you the best shot, even if it a long shot.

[KobesAchilles]

Glad we’re doing this nonsense with a 19 year old on miniscule shooting attempts .

Yeah he could NEVER improve his shooting.
Unfortunately it’s not just his shooting. It would be way easier if it was. He would have to learn how to play point guard on top of not knowing how to shoot on top of not being an elite athlete. He looks like Antonio Daniels to me.

But don’t act like a shit ton of 19 year olds don’t learn how to shoot. Let me ask you a question. How good is our shooting coach? Do you even know? I don’t think people realize how far behind the 8 ball we are as a franchise. We just assume bc we used to develop players at a high level we will continue to do so. Theres no basis for it. We don’t have any good assistant coaches anymore for development. Chip is gone. Forcier is gone. Hardy is gone.

What do we have to really teach Reed? Basically game speed adjustments. Tighten up his handle. Tighten up his pocket passes. His release is already crazy quick. If he’s in the correct position on defense then he will be a positive on that side. He has great hands and anticipation already. People are really overrating PG defense. You don’t draft a future PG bc he can defend college kids. It’s just not smart.

[AFBlue]

Unfortunately it’s not just his shooting. It would be way easier if it was. He would have to learn how to play point guard on top of not knowing how to shoot on top of not being an elite athlete. He looks like Antonio Daniels to me.

But don’t act like a shit ton of 19 year olds don’t learn how to shoot. Let me ask you a question. How good is our shooting coach? Do you even know? I don’t think people realize how far behind the 8 ball we are as a franchise. We just assume bc we used to develop players at a high level we will continue to do so. Theres no basis for it. We don’t have any good assistant coaches anymore for development. Chip is gone. Forcier is gone. Hardy is gone.

What do we have to really teach Reed? Basically game speed adjustments. Tighten up his handle. Tighten up his pocket passes. His release is already crazy quick. If he’s in the correct position on defense then he will be a positive on that side. He has great hands and anticipation already. People are really overrating PG defense. You don’t draft a future PG bc he can defend college kids. It’s just not smart.

Do either Sheppard or Castle really have to learn to play PG? I mean it would significantly improve their long-term upside if they did, but both can still be incredibly valuable as connectors and secondary playmakers. I'm not sure either ends up as a primary on-the-ball guy, so for me it comes down to valuing shooting or defensive positional versatility. The Spurs desperately need both, so I don't think there's a bad choice between the two.

[Ariel]

But don’t act like a shit ton of 19 year olds don’t learn how to shoot. Let me ask you a question. How good is our shooting coach? Do you even know? I don’t think people realize how far behind the 8 ball we are as a franchise. We just assume bc we used to develop players at a high level we will continue to do so. Theres no basis for it. We don’t have any good assistant coaches anymore for development. Chip is gone. Forcier is gone. Hardy is gone.
I have to say, this is something I think about too. Every player that leaves the Spurs seems to improve their shooting (Dejounte, Derrick White, etc) while the Spurs own prospects seem mostly stagnant. Plenty of teams have had huge success helping their guys improve their shooting (Chicago, New Orleans, Toronto, etc), Detroit just pried from New Orleans the coach that rebuilt from the ground up Lonzo's shot. You'd think this would be a huge priority if you're drafting non shooters, but it doesn't seem to be the case. Honestly, this is partly why I want Risacher and Dillingham, and would take Sheppard as well.

[BackHome]

One thing the Spurs always had in the past was very good assistant coaches and probably very good skills coaches in the background. The last few years I would have to say our coaching staff has not been good to say it lightly as the main reason is no one knows when Pop is going to retire.

Drafting Wemby has changed a lot of things and one thing that needs to change is that we need better assistants - Heck bring in a vet seasoned coach and a new upcoming coach who can relate to these young players

[Mr. Body]

Do either Sheppard or Castle really have to learn to play PG? I mean it would significantly improve their long-term upside if they did, but both can still be incredibly valuable as connectors and secondary playmakers. I'm not sure either ends up as a primary on-the-ball guy, so for me it comes down to valuing shooting or defensive positional versatility. The Spurs desperately need both, so I don't think there's a bad choice between the two.

No. They're both more than good enough to play in the Spurs system, and both would get even better. They're smart basketball players. If the concern is getting Wemby the ball, Castle was very good at getting Clingan under the basket or in posts. That wouldn't be an issue.

[KobesAchilles]

Do either Sheppard or Castle really have to learn to play PG? I mean it would significantly improve their long-term upside if they did, but both can still be incredibly valuable as connectors and secondary playmakers. I'm not sure either ends up as a primary on-the-ball guy, so for me it comes down to valuing shooting or defensive positional versatility. The Spurs desperately need both, so I don't think there's a bad choice between the two.
I don’t think they need to be ball dominant. And I wouldn’t want a PG that is ball dominant. But they do need to learn how to slow down the tempo of the game, run a half court offense, and hit timely shots when called on. If we went all in on fast break offense then I think I would rather have Castle. But Pop is and always be a half court offense guy and the way to win a championship is through half court offense during crunch time. To me, Sheppard fits this bill perfectly. He just knows the game at a high level AND can shoot at a high clip. He isn’t going to be shooting 15 times a game, so we need someone who can consistently hit 6 shots a game on his 12-13 attempts.

Also Wemby getting like 10 free points a game off of lobs like Lively does during the playoffs has me salivating a bit. Harder to sag off of a guy like Sheppard than Castle

[SpursBills]

Do either Sheppard or Castle really have to learn to play PG? I mean it would significantly improve their long-term upside if they did, but both can still be incredibly valuable as connectors and secondary playmakers. I'm not sure either ends up as a primary on-the-ball guy, so for me it comes down to valuing shooting or defensive positional versatility. The Spurs desperately need both, so I don't think there's a bad choice between the two.

Both Castle and Sheppard can be "point guards", but not necessarily in the traditional sense like a Trae, CP3, or Luka.

Castle can probably be a point guard in the same way that smart or suggs is a point guard.
Sheppard can probably be a point guard in the same way that lonzo is a point guard.

[LeBowen]

Both Castle and Sheppard can be "point guards", but not necessarily in the traditional sense like a Trae, CP3, or Luka.

Castle can probably be a point guard in the same way that smart or suggs is a point guard.
Sheppard can probably be a point guard in the same way that lonzo is a point guard.

Lonzo most definitely is (was) a point guard.
I think we're too quick to dismiss if someone can or can't develop certain skills.

If we managed to develop Demar into an efficent point guard in his late 20s, anything could happen.
My biggest concern with Sheppard is if he can develop his self-creation, not passing.
I don't want to waste a high pick on a spot up shooter.

[BackHome]

I don’t think they need to be ball dominant. And I wouldn’t want a PG that is ball dominant. But they do need to learn how to slow down the tempo of the game, run a half court offense, and hit timely shots when called on. If we went all in on fast break offense then I think I would rather have Castle. But Pop is and always be a half court offense guy and the way to win a championship is through half court offense during crunch time. To me, Sheppard fits this bill perfectly. He just knows the game at a high level AND can shoot at a high clip. He isn’t going to be shooting 15 times a game, so we need someone who can consistently hit 6 shots a game on his 12-13 attempts.

Also Wemby getting like 10 free points a game off of lobs like Lively does during the playoffs has me salivating a bit. Harder to sag off of a guy like Sheppard than Castle

Yeah, at first I was thinking traditional PG who basically has the ball the majority of time but after seeing Wemby play I don't think he would be happy with that. He is going to want to get a lot of touches which is why I am leaning towards Castle

[Ice009]

Very interesting player and potential. Is it likely that Castle will be there at number 4, and if he is, would the Spurs take him?

[baseline bum]

Here's a short version of Vecenie's take: puts Castle as his #3 prospect and in Tier 3: High-Leverage Starters, behind Sarr and Sheppard and ahead of Clingan and Risacher in the tier. Highest tier he has anyone ranked in this draft:

SUMMARY: Castle is polarizing this year because of his jumper. If you believe the touch he’s shown from the free-throw line and around the rim will translate and you think his mechanics are workable, you will probably be higher on him. If you think he doesn’t have enough of a baseline level as a shooter, you probably rank him in the later portion of the lottery. Castle is my No. 3 player this year because I buy his jumper improving in time, and if it does, he has as much upside as any player in this class. He’s a potential big initiator who can already pass and is comfortable in ball screens. He’s elite on defense and has already showed that he can play a high-level role on a winning team. His floor is as a contributor who helps you win important games, even in the NBA, due to his defensive prowess and on-ball ability. If his jumper ever develops, he’s one of the few players in this class with a realistic All-Star ceiling. He’s an uncertain bet, but there are no sure things in this class. Castle is a player who could pay off most if things turn out well, but he also has a higher-end floor if it doesn’t.

[baseline bum]

More from Vecenie:

STRENGTHS: Castle has awesome measurements for an NBA wing at 6-5 1/2 without shoes and a 6-9 wingspan. His 8-6 standing reach will work well across the positional spectrum. He looked big for the college game and was also a strong athlete. He’s not elite in terms of explosiveness — he posted a 37-inch vertical leap and was sub-11 seconds in the lane agility drill at the NBA combine — but is extremely fluid and plays with physicality. He’s flexible for someone this big, strong and powerful when he drives. He has terrific body control and can maneuver around defenders on both ends. He absorbs contact well on both ends while maintaining his space. He's a very smart player with great spatial awareness when attacking opposing defenses on and off the ball. He processes the game well and plays hard.

Castle projects to be a big ballhandler, whether in a primary or secondary role. I think of him in the latter right now, which is how he played at Connecticut. The Huskies used a committee approach to the lead guard role, but Castle was excellent in ball screens in high school. In both situations, he showed a mature pace and understanding for how to use his body to create separation. He loved using hang dribbles on his drives. He was very comfortable getting to his spots by decelerating, then powering up for another step or two to go up to the rim. Sometimes, he settled for too many midrange shots in high school, but he was good at getting to the rim this year and displayed some terrific off-ball driving that included attacking closeouts. Castle doesn’t have a monster first step, but his decisiveness makes up for it. He’s aggressive in attacking directly off the catch if he recognizes that the shot won’t be there. Castle is an aggressive player who takes available space.

Castle moves well off the ball, and his terrific spatial awareness pops up in a big way as a cutter. He found many of his points this season by getting to open areas of the court on 45-degree or opposite-side baseline cuts. He has an excellent sense of timing and a knack for going at the exact instant his defender falls asleep. He flashes into the midrange areas intelligently, runs well off screens and curls and gets away from his man into dangerous spots.

From a skill perspective, Castle showed finishing ability and has always displayed terrific passing acumen. He made 61.1 percent of his shots at the rim this year — including 57.1 percent in half-court settings — but the percentages got even better as he got healthier following his knee injury. He uses his body well as he loads up to get to the rim. He displaces on-ball defenders with his shoulders and hips on drives. When he has some space, he can use Euro steps that allow for sudden deceleration to get away from his man. We’ll talk about some potential concerns in the next section, but he does well as a below-the-rim finisher. He has the kind of frame and physicality that has potential to move bigger players on his drives as he gets older.

Castle has always put together impressive moments as a passer. In high school, he would throw cross-corner skips regularly out of ball screens, but then would also display sharp touch lobs. This year, Castle was even more versatile in his execution. He makes early reads in transition to teammates filling lanes and to shooters spraying out to the wings and corners. He finds tight windows to get the ball to his roller out of ball screens or to the dunker spot when on the move. He understands when he forces the help as a driver and times his pass well to hit his teammate. This season, he also showed pinpoint decision-making in the run of play. He hit high-low lobs to his bigs and found creative quick reads on touch passes without dribbling. Castle understands how to manipulate help defenders, too. He throws some jump passes where his eyes will be looking one way, then dart the other to get the ball to an open kickout. He's already looking at the third level of the defense right as he comes open and can adjust to what they give him. He made the right decision regularly, only turning the ball over 1.5 times per game while averaging nearly three assists. I'm not sure Castle will be the kind of primary lead guard who can separate from his man without a ball screen, but I think he can lead the break and play as an initiator for stretches of games.

Castle had an excellent defensive season at Connecticut across the board. On the ball, he uses his footwork and length extremely well. He has great lateral quickness and flexibility for his size, allowing him to stay in front of his man and make opposing ballhandlers miserable. He is also very strong. Because he’s 210 pounds, it’s tough to go through his core if he keeps his chest in front of you. He will be very switchable in the NBA. Connecticut used him across the perimeter this season and asked him to play a shutdown role. He picks up lead initiators far out on the court and makes it tough for them to get into their team’s set. He stays low in his stance and slides with his man. He also does a good job navigating screens and getting skinny when necessary to get around them. After he cuts his man off, he stays high and keeps his hands up to reduce angles and contest shots. If someone beats him, he uses that length and willingness to stay high to recover well and contest from the side and behind.

Castle’s ability to navigate screens also pops up in his off-ball defensive game, where he was outstanding this season. He thrived when Connecticut occasionally used him in a shutdown role on elite off-ball movers such as Baylor Scheierman. Castle does a fantastic job of locking and trailing around off-ball actions, then using his length to recover with a strong closeout or his quickness to recover back if his man attacked off the bounce. He takes great routes around screens and stays attached to his man. He’s generally balanced with his closeouts in scramble situations and covers ground quickly. When not dealing with his primary assignment, he plays solid, rotational defense. He makes quality contests from the opposite side using his length and occasionally comes up with a block. He stays big and is responsible when gambling for steals.

[baseline bum]

Vecenie on Castle's weaknesses

WEAKNESSES: Castle is not overly explosive. He’s not deficient athletically and gets a lot out of his gifts on the court because of his strength, but he’s not someone who flies around. He can throw down and dunk, but typically must load up off two feet. He has some suddenness with his hesitation dribbles, but he doesn’t have a great first step off the bounce.

Those factors will limit Castle until he gets more creative as a ballhandler. He’s not stiff and can use his body to create pockets of space with hesitations and decelerating, but he’s also not yet shifty with the ball in his hands. In part, that’s because his handle is a bit high and loose, unsurprising for a bigger teenage guard.

He doesn’t regularly cross up defenders and can struggle to separate from his man. He needs a ball screen to bend defenses. Alternatively, he can excel at keeping the advantage for his team as a driver off a closeout, but only after someone else has already manipulated the defense.

Castle often must finish tough drives through contact. He’s capable of it, but it doesn’t lead to particularly efficient scoring; this is why he was an average finisher at the rim in half-court settings. He doesn’t have a wide margin for error athletically (his early-season knee injury caused an issue) and lacks the shiftiness to consistently break down his man against a set defense. He profiles best now as second-side wing who plays next to a primary initiator, much like his role is with Connecticut.

That’s fine and he’s big enough to do that, but he’s not yet a primary initiator himself.

To become a high-level player in his second-side wing role, he must shoot the ball better. Castle made just 26.7 percent from 3 this season and only attempted 2.2 3s per game. He didn't look strong as a shooter this year in any regard. His mechanics aren’t completely broken and he did make 75.5 percent of his free throws, but he has some flaws. Shot preparation is an issue, as it is for many players who grew up playing on the ball. His rhythm throughout his body is inconsistent and his balance looks funky. He takes spot-up looks on the left side of the court with a 1-2 step and then takes shots when he’s moving to his right off the hop. On the 1-2 step shots, his body gets twisted and his knees bent too far to the left, which results in him leaning to the left on his shot. He has a deep ball dip that slows his shot down, then has a hitch at the top. It ends up with him shooting the ball on the way down more often than he should. All the moving parts in his motion cause inconsistency. The fix looks simple: When Castle minimizes the hitch in his shot, his motion looks good. That tended to happen off the hop and when he was moving to his right. He needs to focus his efforts on getting to a one-motion jumper that is fluid.

Unsurprisingly that leads to issues shooting pull-up jumpers. He made just 25 percent of his pull-up midrange shots at Connecticut, and just 29.4 percent of his pull-up 3s, per Synergy. The best way for players who struggle to separate going forward is to develop a stepback jumper. Castle was able to get to his stepback in high school and college, but hasn’t made the shot regularly. Balance is the issue: He tends to lean back on his pull-up after his hitch, particularly when launching from the midrange. Lots of his shots come up short. I’m wary of his reliance on leaning backward as regularly as he does; his projection becomes more valuable if he shows the ability to use his length to shoot over the top of defenders. However, he needs to remove the hitch to get a better weight transfer throughout the shot. The momentum on his pull-up is being generated with his arms, as opposed to his legs.

[DAF86]

With each passing day I'm more and more in favour of trading down to get more shots. I'd rather have 2 mid-teens picks and getting Devin Carter and Carlton Carrington, than keep 4 and select Castle. They are similar tier prospects, imho, and I'd prefer to get more chances to get it right. This draft should be treated as an NFL one, imho: get value by trading down.

[objective]

Russillo and Veccini raised questions about Holland’s processing speed on both sides of the ball in that podcast. That’s kind of a huge bust red flag for a kid with nearly zero fundamentals.

I don't think there's any red flags as in do-not-draft on his processing speed other than being very young in a new role

And the reason is that if his processing was really that bad, he would have a lot fewer assists and a lot more turnovers. Instead, as a freshman age player being on ball creator for the first time in his career (his point guard as a hs junior for instance was Anthony Black who ran the show) ...

He had better A/T ratio and stats and a very high usage than freshman seasons from Kawhi, from Jaylen Brown, from Tatum, from Paul George, from Andrew Wiggins. As an 18 year old against pros.

If that's the kind of play he's providing as a still learning the game kid on offense, as well as the events generating on defense with such bad processing, then he's a monster in waiting if he gets enough help and also has it in him to mature and see the game slow down for him

[SouthernFryd]

I don't want to develop skills. I want players that already have skills.

Castle needs too much development. He needs at least 2 more years in college. Let another team develop him and then make a play/trade for him later after the development..."IF" he even develops. Wait and see. Spurs need to stop relying on the draft for potentials. Let other teams "develop" these way-too-raw-kids. Then work more in trades in the future. Use your draft picks to trade for people with already developed skills.

It's a different game...you need to do things differently. White was drafted by us...But Boston ended up with him. Don't do what the Spurs did. Do what Boston did...

But, If you're gonna rely on draft, get players with skills not "potential" skills that need to be developed. Who is the most skilled in the draft right now? Get them. This ain't hard ;)

[exstatic]

I don't want to develop skills. I want players that already have skills.

Castle needs too much development. He needs at least 2 more years in college. Let another team develop him and then make a play/trade for him later after the development..."IF" he even develops. Wait and see. Spurs need to stop relying on the draft for potentials. Let other teams "develop" these way-too-raw-kids. Then work more in trades in the future. Use your draft picks to trade for people with already developed skills.

It's a different game...you need to do things differently. White was drafted by us...But Boston ended up with him. Don't do what the Spurs did. Do what Boston did...

But, If you're gonna rely on draft, get players with skills not "potential" skills that need to be developed. Who is the most skilled in the draft right now? Get them. This ain't hard ;)

If your front office followed this model, you’d win 35-40 games per year, and never draft a star. You’d never draft a Giannis. You’d never draft a Jokic. You’ve gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet, and that includes some failed draft picks.

BTW, Castle needs some of the least development of any player in this draft, literally just the jumper.

[AFBlue]

I don't want to develop skills. I want players that already have skills.

Castle needs too much development. He needs at least 2 more years in college. Let another team develop him and then make a play/trade for him later after the development..."IF" he even develops. Wait and see. Spurs need to stop relying on the draft for potentials. Let other teams "develop" these way-too-raw-kids. Then work more in trades in the future. Use your draft picks to trade for people with already developed skills.

It's a different game...you need to do things differently. White was drafted by us...But Boston ended up with him. Don't do what the Spurs did. Do what Boston did...

But, If you're gonna rely on draft, get players with skills not "potential" skills that need to be developed. Who is the most skilled in the draft right now? Get them. This ain't hard ;)

The draft is ALL about projection. You get players with defined roles and set skills through free agency or trade. You use the draft to take upside swings on kids with a base set of skills that have the potential to grow beyond them.

I actually think that Castle is one of the more high-floor prospects in this draft (in spite of his age), due to his defense, size and positional versatility. The fact that he could develop as a shooter and on-ball creator is what makes him worthy of #4.

I will say it's ironic that you chose White for your example, since he was almost 24 when he got drafted and had shown significant production and growth across multiple levels. The Spurs also got him at 29, when the high-floor/high-ceiling players were off the board. The Spurs are in a different position, needing to get pairings with star upside next to Victor and having access to those type of players in the top-10.

[DPG21920]

It’s interesting in the “big board” world how divisive Castle is. I see a TON of Castle being ranked 14-25+ on boards and equally top 5.

Hes not some can’t miss guy with a safe floor based on this. He’s really either disliked or someone people buy into developing

[Ariel]

It’s interesting in the “big board” world how divisive Castle is. I see a TON of Castle being ranked 14-25+ on boards and equally top 5.

Hes not some can’t miss guy with a safe floor based on this. He’s really either disliked or someone people buy into developing
I like Castle (even took him first on Dejounte's big board thread), but this is a fair point. If his shot doesn't come around to even a passable level, he's a much lower caliber of prospect than we're willing to admit. In a normal draft I'd be much more comfortable taking him in the late lottery, but this draft has all sorts of red flags for just about every pick, so we're basically picking our poison.

[TD 21]

The draft is ALL about projection. You get players with defined roles and set skills through free agency or trade. You use the draft to take upside swings on kids with a base set of skills that have the potential to grow beyond them.

The Spurs are in a different position, needing to get pairings with star upside next to Victor and having access to those type of players in the top-10.

This lacks context, which is that the Spurs have the best prospect in 20 years if not ever, a terrible team and this draft lacks not only an obvious star, but someone with clear upside to being one.

Instead of treating it like a typical re-build or a better draft, they have to take it for what it is and make sure they get at least one high floor, plug and play type instead of multiple mystery box projects.

[Mr. Body]

It’s interesting in the “big board” world how divisive Castle is. I see a TON of Castle being ranked 14-25+ on boards and equally top 5.

Hes not some can’t miss guy with a safe floor based on this. He’s really either disliked or someone people buy into developing

In this draft, it's impossible to drop him into the teens. That's pure malpractice and a sign of not knowing what they're talking about.

[SpursFan86]

This lacks context, which is that the Spurs have the best prospect in 20 years if not ever, a terrible team and this draft lacks not only an obvious star, but someone with clear upside to being one.

Instead of treating it like a typical re-build or a better draft, they have to take it for what it is and make sure they get at least one high floor, plug and play type instead of multiple mystery box projects.

I mostly agree with this, but I do think Castle has a decently high floor. Even if his jumper doesn’t develop, he seems like the type of guy who would at least be a very solid 2nd unit guy.

But yeah, getting at least one guy who we already know can shoot well is a big priority IMO and why Sheppard is my #1 target. Carter is another guy I feel good about although there is some concern that his past season was a fluke/outlier in terms of his shooting ability. Dillingham would be another great pick because at least we know he can shoot and generate offense already.

Even someone like Knecht who isn’t super exciting - I’d gladly take him over Salaun…especially if we grabbed Castle at 4.

[Ariel]

Instead of treating it like a typical re-build or a better draft, they have to take it for what it is and make sure they get at least one high floor, plug and play type instead of multiple mystery box projects.
I kind of lean this way also. Spurs have more good picks to come in better drafts for upside swings, taking on not one but two projects that don't fit and take a lot of time and investment might put the Spurs in a tough spot next draft when the pressure will be much higher if this year's picks don't look good, resulting in bad decisions like selling low on the picks for immediate help or settling for safer prospect with actual high upside ones available. Point being, not taking fit into account in this draft isn't as harmless as it's being made out to be.

[LeBowen]

The thing is that there aren't many players with superstar upside.

I'd rather have Castle who would be a guaranteed two-way star with a respectable jumpshot than one of those theoretical wings who have nothing going for them.

If we're going the reasonable route, drafting Castle+Carter combo and both of them developing into high quality starters would mean we wouldn't need to look for any guards for the foreseeable future.
Considering how things are changing around the league, I'd say that elite role players like Derrick are worth more than 25ppg that don't offer much else.
If I'm in charge of building a playoff roster, I'm taking Derrick over Lavine or Ingram even their contracts were the same.

[Pauleta14]

It’s interesting in the “big board” world how divisive Castle is. I see a TON of Castle being ranked 14-25+ on boards and equally top 5.

Hes not some can’t miss guy with a safe floor based on this. He’s really either disliked or someone people buy into developing

Who is in this draft? (genuine question)

[baseline bum]

It’s interesting in the “big board” world how divisive Castle is. I see a TON of Castle being ranked 14-25+ on boards and equally top 5.

Hes not some can’t miss guy with a safe floor based on this. He’s really either disliked or someone people buy into developing

Who is ranking him 14-25?

[Ariel]

I mostly agree with this, but I do think Castle has a decently high floor. Even if his jumper doesn’t develop, he seems like the type of guy who would at least be a very solid 2nd unit guy.
A contender nowadays can have what, a single non shooter in the starting line up? Finding non shooters who are good elsewhere isn't hard, Ryan Dunn probably goes in the 2nd round and he projects to be an even better defender than Castle. Think about the stone in Detroit's foot that Ausar Thompson is, where they can't play him even with how good he is all around except shooting.

Also, you can get a solid 2nd unit guy for a few 2nd round picks. Point being, for all intents and purpuses whether he's a 7th or 8th guy if his shot doesn't develop shouldn't factor in our analysis on whether to take Castle or not, because the difference between that floor and a total bust is worth probably 2 to 3 second round picks.

[Pauleta14]

I kind of lean this way also. Spurs have more good picks to come in better drafts for upside swings, taking on not one by two projects that don't fit and take a lot of time and investment might put the Spurs in a tough spot next draft when the pressure will be much higher if this year's picks don't look good, resulting in bad decisions like selling low on the picks for immediate help or settling for safer prospect with actual high upside ones available. Point being, not taking fit into account in this draft isn't as harmless as it's being made out to be.

Totally agree.

I think the long wait made a lot of ppl forget how weak or without "sure" prospect this draft is. Some even ready to give up ATL's future picks

That's why i'm not high on older pospects like Carter and Knetch and want PATFO to focus on highest ceiling players to dev (ZR Castle Reed Dilli Cody Salaun)

[DPG21920]

Who is in this draft? (genuine question)

Reed, Risacher, Sarr and a few others that have at least some things they do really well that can be banked on I would say

[baseline bum]

With each passing day I'm more and more in favour of trading down to get more shots. I'd rather have 2 mid-teens picks and getting Devin Carter and Carlton Carrington, than keep 4 and select Castle. They are similar tier prospects, imho, and I'd prefer to get more chances to get it right. This draft should be treated as an NFL one, imho: get value by trading down.

I don't see it, you can only have five guys on the floor and everyone you draft needs minutes to develop. Would much rather have my choice of two guys than trade down for four and have way less control over who I'm getting. This isn't the NFL where you're trying to fill out a 53 man roster.

[DPG21920]

Who is ranking him 14-25?

Even from Timvps models: “ The analytic models aren’t overly optimistic about Castle; he grades out as a mid-to-late first round pick in most of the models I’ve looked at behind the scenes. What he did at UConn translated to winning but his numbers are much more pedestrian compared to someone like Reed Sheppard. And speaking of winning, it should be noted that UConn also won a championship the year before Castle arrived — so that takes at least a little bit of shine away from the winning part of the evaluation.”

But Im just seeing a ton of big boards posted on Twitter (some from guys I have no idea who they are so they aren’t notable or anything) and Im guessing they are ranking solely based on models without bias?

[DPG21920]

I don't see it, you can only have five guys on the floor and everyone you draft needs minutes to develop. Would much rather have my choice of two guys than trade down for four and have way less control over who I'm getting. This isn't the NFL where you're trying to fill out a 53 man roster.

Ehhh…I somewhat disagree. Spurs have so many holes that I think SA could add 4 rookies and not only have the minutes, but actually improve in wins too. Graham, Cedi, Branham, Blake all are either young or dont add to winning much and replacing those 4 guy (or if you trade Keldon too) means you have plenty of minutes and could simultaneously bring more to winning games even as rookies than those guys did.

[LeBowen]

Even from Timvps models: “ The analytic models aren’t overly optimistic about Castle; he grades out as a mid-to-late first round pick in most of the models I’ve looked at behind the scenes. What he did at UConn translated to winning but his numbers are much more pedestrian compared to someone like Reed Sheppard. And speaking of winning, it should be noted that UConn also won a championship the year before Castle arrived — so that takes at least a little bit of shine away from the winning part of the evaluation.”

But Im just seeing a ton of big boards posted on Twitter (some from guys I have no idea who they are so they aren’t notable or anything) and Im guessing they are ranking solely based on models without bias?

Or you can look at it the other way.
He managed to get into championship team's starting roster right away and was praised for doing all the right things.

I guess we should hype up Holland and Buzelis who are supposedly two top tier prospects who played together and couldn't win any games in G-league.
I'm not convinced Castle will ever develop his jumpshot, but I'm taking him over Holland and Buzelis and it's not even close.

[DPG21920]

Or you can look at it the other way.
He managed to get into championship team's starting roster right away and was praised for doing all the right things.

I guess we should hype up Holland and Buzelis who are supposedly two top tier prospects who played together and couldn't win any games in G-league.
I'm not convinced Castle will ever develop his jumpshot, but I'm taking him over Holland and Buzelis and it's not even close.

Sure - Im just presenting what Im seeing lol. Hence him being divisive. People like you love him. Others think hes not a lottery pick. He’s one of the wider range guys and honestly I would say Risacher is the same way due to analytics not liking him. Risacher is also a guy you see top 5 on a lot of main big boards, but on the non main stream boards hes like a tier 3 prospect.

[LeBowen]

People like you love him.

I don't love him, I just think he's the best choice in this poor draft considering our needs.


Others think hes not a lottery pick. He’s one of the wider range guys and honestly I would say Risacher is the same way due to analytics not liking him. Risacher is also a guy you see top 5 on a lot of main big boards, but on the non main stream boards hes like a tier 3 prospect.

Analytics are often wrong on European guys because it's a completely different environment.
Basically, ever since analytics had Ayton and Bagley over Luka, I've completely disregarded them when it comes to European prospects.

Imo, Dillingham is the only player with superstar upside. He's got the skillset, but not the body. Still, for every few hundred small guards that fail when they get into the league, one becomes a 25ppg scorer.
That's why I wouldn't mind taking a gamble with him on #8.

For #4 I'd be fine with either Castle or Risacher.
I'm just not that high on Sheppard. If he was such an outstanding shooter, why is his volume so low?
I'm not taking a 6'2 shooting guard if he's not a volume scorer or a primary playmaker. Would rather have Dillingham with boom or bust potential.

[DPG21920]

Ya - me saying what im seeing is not some indication that I think he sucks or whatever. I think its seems pretty damn likely SA ends up with Castle and I would be ok with it. He may bust, but I feel like most of these guys may. Feels like it will be the first draft with zero good players in it :lol

[Pauleta14]

Reed, Risacher, Sarr and a few others that have at least some things they do really well that can be banked on I would say

Those 3 also have a lot of interogations about them.

Reed bc of his lack of athleticism and size

Risacher lack of playmaking

Sarr played in a joke of a league without managing to shine

Every prospects in this draft have huge holes. tbh it's all about PATFO's prefered choice, probably imfluenced by infos we don't even have (character, IQ, work ethic etc)

In many aspects Castle offers more garantees than the 3 you named. He's shined in a complex system, on and off ball, best man to man defense of the lot, he's safe the ball in his hand, has great body type and touch (which tells me there's no reason he won't have a good shot with work)

[baseline bum]

Ehhh…I somewhat disagree. Spurs have so many holes that I think SA could add 4 rookies and not only have the minutes, but actually improve in wins too. Graham, Cedi, Branham, Blake all are either young or dont add to winning much and replacing those 4 guy (or if you trade Keldon too) means you have plenty of minutes and could simultaneously bring more to winning games even as rookies than those guys did.

Four more rookies seems like it would stretch the coaching staff out pretty thinly and wouldn't give much chance for playing time. They have two very high priority prospects to develop in Wemby and Sochan, and I expect they're not yet ready to cut the cord on Branham. So that's three young prospects getting heavy minutes. Add in Vassell, Tre Jones, Keldon, and Collins and you're at 7 rotation guys already (they're not going to not play Collins given what they pay him). I expect they'll want to keep Champagnie since he's on a cheap long term contract that's great value for the team. Only gives you two more slots in a 10-man rotation and that's assuming you don't sign anyone this summer. If you trade Keldon it'll probably be for another rotation player since we're talking about a scenario the team is trading down in the draft and not up. So you're still at only two slots.

Also gotta factor in having 2 to 3 firsts next year in a much better draft.

[exstatic]

Reed, Risacher, Sarr and a few others that have at least some things they do really well that can be banked on I would say

Castle has more boxes checked already than any of them.

[Mr. Body]

Even from Timvps models: “ The analytic models aren’t overly optimistic about Castle; he grades out as a mid-to-late first round pick in most of the models I’ve looked at behind the scenes. What he did at UConn translated to winning but his numbers are much more pedestrian compared to someone like Reed Sheppard. And speaking of winning, it should be noted that UConn also won a championship the year before Castle arrived — so that takes at least a little bit of shine away from the winning part of the evaluation.”

But Im just seeing a ton of big boards posted on Twitter (some from guys I have no idea who they are so they aren’t notable or anything) and Im guessing they are ranking solely based on models without bias?

I'm guessing it's a lot of casuals who never watched any of these players and just looked at basketball-reference. The main, number one, and primary reason you get Stephon Castle is defense, and most of these people don't understand that there are two sides of the court.

Timvp is kinda looking at some of the wrong stuff, too. With Clingan and Castle on the floor together, UConn's defense was incredible. When you dropped Clingan, those possessions moved down to very good. Thing is, when you dropped Castle and only had Clingan, the defensive rating went to about the same very good spot. What does this mean? A dominant defensive center in the NCAA is a massive anchor, but UConn was just as good when it was only Castle out there. Obviously the team defense was seriously good, but those were the two anchors.

And when Castle and Clingan played together, they were stifling.

What everyone misses on Castle is that you're getting a potentially elite defender, possibly a Jrue Holiday type who is actually taller and stronger. What's more, Castle has good handles, good vision, rebounds, knows how to play the game, high character, high work ethic, a winning pedigree already.

Obviously you rate this guy high in this draft. He'd go high last year - where Anthony Black went, one or the other. Anyone who has him past the midpoint of the lottery simply doesn't know what they're doing.

[exstatic]

Even from Timvps models: “ The analytic models aren’t overly optimistic about Castle; he grades out as a mid-to-late first round pick in most of the models I’ve looked at behind the scenes. What he did at UConn translated to winning but his numbers are much more pedestrian compared to someone like Reed Sheppard. And speaking of winning, it should be noted that UConn also won a championship the year before Castle arrived — so that takes at least a little bit of shine away from the winning part of the evaluation.”

But Im just seeing a ton of big boards posted on Twitter (some from guys I have no idea who they are so they aren’t notable or anything) and Im guessing they are ranking solely based on models without bias?

If you go by guys like Russillo, their sources are saying this draft starts at a normal #8 or even #10 pick caliber player, then having castle at around 4 is probably right.

[John B]

Castle has more boxes checked already than any of them.

Possibly Risacher, Clingan, Reed, Sarr..

Would you draft Castle if Sarr dropped to 4? I’d take Sarr and draft Carter at 8.

[exstatic]

Possibly Risacher, Clingan, Reed, Sarr..

Would you draft Castle if Sarr dropped to 4? I’d take Sarr and draft Carter at 8.

Sarr has almost no basketball skill boxes checked. Pretty much his whole game is hypothetical, and based off length and athleticism. I’d draft Castle at 4.

[Mr. Body]

Sarr has almost no basketball skill boxes checked. Pretty much his whole game is hypothetical, and based off length and athleticism. I’d draft Castle at 4.

Yeah, I think it's Head Cheerleader syndrome. Sarr has been Head Cheerleader for so long, people think he's the hottest girl in class. But you look around and say, "Hey, wait a minute." While everyone just lusts after what everyone else is lusting after.

Sarr is good, but Castle imm is objectively better and, for our purposes, fills a badly needed role much more. Sarr is a 'kinda maybe fit' while Castle is an immediate, desperate fit.

[DPG21920]

Four more rookies seems like it would stretch the coaching staff out pretty thinly and wouldn't give much chance for playing time. They have two very high priority prospects to develop in Wemby and Sochan, and I expect they're not yet ready to cut the cord on Branham. So that's three young prospects getting heavy minutes. Add in Vassell, Tre Jones, Keldon, and Collins and you're at 7 rotation guys already (they're not going to not play Collins given what they pay him). I expect they'll want to keep Champagnie since he's on a cheap long term contract that's great value for the team. Only gives you two more slots in a 10-man rotation and that's assuming you don't sign anyone this summer. If you trade Keldon it'll probably be for another rotation player since we're talking about a scenario the team is trading down in the draft and not up. So you're still at only two slots.

Also gotta factor in having 2 to 3 firsts next year in a much better draft.

I can see that but I just view this team as in such need of talent and upgrades that it would not be a task too big to overcome *assuming* there’s actually 4 players SA rates highly enough to push Tre/Branham/Blake/Cedi for minutes etc….

Putting Castle in SL over Tre
Risacher in SL over Champagnie
Replacing Branham & Blake mins with Carter and Ja’Kobe

Doesn’t seem like to big of a deal to me with regards to playing time or helping win games. But I agree it seems like a lot and probably not realistic at all

[DPG21920]

I'm guessing it's a lot of casuals who never watched any of these players and just looked at basketball-reference. The main, number one, and primary reason you get Stephon Castle is defense, and most of these people don't understand that there are two sides of the court.

Timvp is kinda looking at some of the wrong stuff, too. With Clingan and Castle on the floor together, UConn's defense was incredible. When you dropped Clingan, those possessions moved down to very good. Thing is, when you dropped Castle and only had Clingan, the defensive rating went to about the same very good spot. What does this mean? A dominant defensive center in the NCAA is a massive anchor, but UConn was just as good when it was only Castle out there. Obviously the team defense was seriously good, but those were the two anchors.

And when Castle and Clingan played together, they were stifling.

What everyone misses on Castle is that you're getting a potentially elite defender, possibly a Jrue Holiday type who is actually taller and stronger. What's more, Castle has good handles, good vision, rebounds, knows how to play the game, high character, high work ethic, a winning pedigree already.

Obviously you rate this guy high in this draft. He'd go high last year - where Anthony Black went, one or the other. Anyone who has him past the midpoint of the lottery simply doesn't know what they're doing.

Ya - I think its more of some people just make their boards off of tiers and not fit/etc…it’s analytical to remove bias and they compare all sorts of data and comps and come up with the highest probable outcomes for their rankings.

Theres that and then theres eye test and usually you get a blend of both to a degree. But some with no bias and no consequence or pressure to make an actual pick just rate guys differently.

[KobesAchilles]

Castle has more boxes checked already than any of them.
Is one of those boxes shooting? Bc that’s kinda important today. This isn’t the 90s

[LeBowen]

Is one of those boxes shooting? Bc that’s kinda important today. This isn’t the 90s

Defense is also kinda important. How many bad defenders were there on the floor for legit contenders this year? How many of them didn't get attacked over and over again? People say Luka is fine on defense due to his size, but he did no better than Trae would on that end in the finals.

There are way more elite defenders that didn't have a shot when they came into the league than elite shooters that managed to become good defenders over the years.
Can't teach size or athleticism.
Unfortunately this draft has no two way players other than Risacher.


With that being said, my realistic ceiling for Castle would be DDR/Jimmy level passer and Jrue level scorer.
I'd take something like 18/6/6 with all-NBA level defense over a 25ppg scorer that's a traffic cone.

With that being said, if we get Castle, he can't play with Jeremy until their shots develop and we can't afford to have any other non-shooters in the rotation.

[KobesAchilles]

Defense is also kinda important. How many bad defenders were there on the floor for legit contenders this year? How many of them didn't get attacked over and over again? People say Luka is fine on defense due to his size, but he did no better than Trae would on that end in the finals.

There are way more elite defenders that didn't have a shot when they came into the league than elite shooters that managed to become good defenders over the years.
Can't teach size or athleticism.
Unfortunately this draft has no two way players other than Risacher.


With that being said, my realistic ceiling for Castle would be DDR/Jimmy level passer and Jrue level scorer.
I'd take something like 18/6/6 with all-NBA level defense over a 25ppg scorer that's a traffic cone.

With that being said, if we get Castle, he can't play with Jeremy until their shots develop and we can't afford to have any other non-shooters in the rotation.
Point guard defense is extremely overrated. Now if you tell me he is our starting SG over the next decade then I’m fine with the pick. But he’s not a point guard. And he will never be an 18 6 and 6 player on our team. He just can’t score enough to be that player. It’s more realistic that he’s a 13, 3, and 3 player than Jrue Holiday at his peak.

[LeBowen]

Point guard defense is extremely overrated. Now if you tell me he is our starting SG over the next decade then I’m fine with the pick. But he’s not a point guard. And he will never be an 18 6 and 6 player on our team. He just can’t score enough to be that player.

Point of attack defense is one of the most important things. Just look at how hard Celtics made it on Luka.
Even when he got his numbers, he was gassed by 4th quarter.

He's not a point guard right now, but I don't think Pop gave up on his hybrid primary ballhandler experiment just because Jeremy couldn't do it.
Castle would definitely be way better in that role.
I dont' see why wouldn't he be able to average 6 to 7 assists.
Keldon, the player with worst case of tunnel vision ever, has been averaging 3 assists.
Devin had 4apg this season.


It’s more realistic that he’s a 13, 3, and 3 player than Jrue Holiday at his peak.

Obviousy. That's why there's so few all-star level players in the league.
But his chances of becoming Jrue are way better than let's say Buzelis' chances of becoming the next AK47 or Sheppard's chances of becoming the next all-time great shooter.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, POA defense is vital. We get set aflame by so many guards. Sixty by Brunson. All these guys destroy us. Whether you want to call Castle a pure PG or not isn't a big deal. The Spurs run an offense that won't depend on a ball-dominant point. He's more than good enough initiating and connecting. The whole thing with him is he goes on the top perimeter scoring threat.

I'd love for him to be half as good as Jrue. That'd be phenomenal.

But here I'll point out he was a better player than Jrue in college:

https://tankathon.com/players/compare?players=stephon-castle--jrue-holiday

He roundly beats him nearly everywhere. Except for steals, although UConn depressed steals as a team. And three point percentage, but both shot so few the variance is pretty high. Castle has Jrue everywhere else including advanced stats. Obviously those don't always translate... but what gets me about Castle's advanced stats is how his Offensive Win Shares almost always beat similar players. He was a strong offensive player despite not being a deep threat.

[baseline bum]

I can see that but I just view this team as in such need of talent and upgrades that it would not be a task too big to overcome *assuming* there’s actually 4 players SA rates highly enough to push Tre/Branham/Blake/Cedi for minutes etc….

Putting Castle in SL over Tre
Risacher in SL over Champagnie
Replacing Branham & Blake mins with Carter and Ja’Kobe

Doesn’t seem like to big of a deal to me with regards to playing time or helping win games. But I agree it seems like a lot and probably not realistic at all

I hated DAF's idea of trading down 1 for 2. Do that with 4 and 8 and Castle, Risacher, Carter are off the board and you're looking at more like four of the JaKobe, McCain, Collier, Edey tier of picks. That would be a mess.

[DPG21920]

I hated DAF's idea of trading down 1 for 2. Do that with 4 and 8 and Castle, Risacher, Carter are off the board and you're looking at more like four of the JaKobe, McCain, Collier, Edey tier of picks. That would be a mess.

Ya this would only happen if 2 of Reed castle Risacher are available when 4 comes around. If that happens then you swing the deal for 5. Pick 8 in this scenario is independent since you have that already. Then you only do pick 21 deal if Ja’Kobe is actually there or a guy you like. But doing the pick 5 deal is themain thing to ensure Reed/Castle or Castle/Risacher etc & you still get pick 8 for Carter or Cody or Holland etc

I don’t like trading back unless you guarantee one of your guys on the board still

[KobesAchilles]

Point of attack defense is one of the most important things. Just look at how hard Celtics made it on Luka.
Even when he got his numbers, he was gassed by 4th quarter.

He's not a point guard right now, but I don't think Pop gave up on his hybrid primary ballhandler experiment just because Jeremy couldn't do it.
Castle would definitely be way better in that role.
I dont' see why wouldn't he be able to average 6 to 7 assists.
Keldon, the player with worst case of tunnel vision ever, has been averaging 3 assists.
Devin had 4apg this season.



Obviousy. That's why there's so few all-star level players in the league.
But his chances of becoming Jrue are way better than let's say Buzelis' chances of becoming the next AK47 or Sheppard's chances of becoming the next all-time great shooter.
POA defense is only bad bc literally the whole roster is bad at it except Wemby. Vassell is out of position, KJ watches, Sochan over rotates, Champ watches too. Having Castle isn’t going to magically change POA defense like you think it will. The opposing team will set a screen on Castle and then all of our other players will still be out of position, over rotate, not pay attention, gamble for no reason, etc etc and it doesn’t fix anything. That’s why Castle would have to be a SG on defense for anything to improve bc once again PG defense doesn’t matter comparatively. They get screened all the time.

So if Castle is our SG then it changes things and I’m okay with drafting him. We can atleast have one side of the floor that we don’t have to worry about whether the player is in position. Makes corner 3s less likely on his side. But Castle should not be guarding PGs until crunch time. I also think yall really underestimate the nba when players can’t shoot. It’s hard for them on offense. He isn’t going to be an 18 ppg player

[LeBowen]

POA defense is only bad bc literally the whole roster is bad at it except Wemby. Vassell is out of position, KJ watches, Sochan over rotates, Champ watches too. Having Castle isn’t going to magically change POA defense like you think it will. The opposing team will set a screen on Castle and then all of our other players will still be out of position, over rotate, not pay attention, gamble for no reason, etc etc and it doesn’t fix anything. That’s why Castle would have to be a SG on defense for anything to improve bc once again PG defense doesn’t matter comparatively. They get screened all the time.

One player can't magically fix the entire team, but if Wemby is your PNR defense partner, it's way easier to recover back to your man.
And it's not like elite defenders don't go over screens.

You're making it sound like Castle wouldn't be a massive defensive upgrade over Tre or Sheppard.


So if Castle is our SG then it changes things and I’m okay with drafting him. We can atleast have one side of the floor that we don’t have to worry about whether the player is in position. Makes corner 3s less likely on his side. But Castle should not be guarding PGs until crunch time. I also think yall really underestimate the nba when players can’t shoot. It’s hard for them on offense. He isn’t going to be an 18 ppg player

Imo, he'd be starting at SF early on. We had Champ starting there in most games, he's a definitive upgrade.
Obviously, it would be one of him or Jeremy on the floor, can't have both.

He can't shoot right now, I didn't say he'd average 18ppg in his rookie year. Or even during his rookie contract.
But he could get there. Many players have.
To me he's not a worse shooter or playmaker than rookie Dejounte was.

And it's obviously not a guarantee. It's a really difficult draft to get the right picks, but Castle seems like the safest bet that still has enough upside.

[KobesAchilles]

One player can't magically fix the entire team, but if Wemby is your PNR defense partner, it's way easier to recover back to your man.
And it's not like elite defenders don't go over screens.

You're making it sound like Castle wouldn't be a massive defensive upgrade over Tre or Sheppard.



Imo, he'd be starting at SF early on. We had Champ starting there in most games, he's a definitive upgrade.
Obviously, it would be one of him or Jeremy on the floor, can't have both.

He can't shoot right now, I didn't say he'd average 18ppg in his rookie year. Or even during his rookie contract.
But he could get there. Many players have.
To me he's not a worse shooter or playmaker than rookie Dejounte was.

And it's obviously not a guarantee. It's a really difficult draft to get the right picks, but Castle seems like the safest bet that still has enough upside.
We basically agree on Castle. Neither one of us thinks he can shoot. Neither one thinks he should be PG. Both of us think he is a hard worker and smart. Where we differ though is how effective he will be on defense. People here make it seem like he will one day be all nba defense and I just don’t think so. That’s really the only difference between our opinions.

That being said I didn’t mean he would average 18 6 and 6 for his rookie year :lol
I just meant for the Spurs he better not average that or else it means he is stat padding on a bad team.

[FireMicoHalili]

Defense is also kinda important. How many bad defenders were there on the floor for legit contenders this year? How many of them didn't get attacked over and over again? People say Luka is fine on defense due to his size, but he did no better than Trae would on that end in the finals.

There are way more elite defenders that didn't have a shot when they came into the league than elite shooters that managed to become good defenders over the years.
Can't teach size or athleticism.
Unfortunately this draft has no two way players other than Risacher.


With that being said, my realistic ceiling for Castle would be DDR/Jimmy level passer and Jrue level scorer.
I'd take something like 18/6/6 with all-NBA level defense over a 25ppg scorer that's a traffic cone.

With that being said, if we get Castle, he can't play with Jeremy until their shots develop and we can't afford to have any other non-shooters in the rotation.
The fact Derrick Jones Jr. stayed on the floor more than Tim Hardaway Jr. in this year’s finals says a lot lol

[CGD]

FYI, here is the view from DC bloggers on their draft. Basically, if Sarr isn’t there at 2, Castle is the popular choice.

https://www.google.com/search?q=will+wizards.draft+castle&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS975US975&oq=will+wizards.draft+castle&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIR igATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRigATIHCAUQIRigAdIBCDk2MThq MGo3qAIZsAIB4gMEGAEgXw&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:3c97e0ab,vid:24UPYRqreEQ,st:0

[DPG21920]

Imagine this scenario:

Sarr goes 1 to ATL
Castle goes 2 to WAS
Reed goes 3 to HOU

At that point it feels like Risacher is easily the choice right? Im guessing that Spurs really hope to have the choice of 2 of Castle/Risacher/Reed just have to see if it breaks that way. ATL taking Clingan is the most likely path to Castle being there for SA.

[Mr. Body]

Imagine this scenario:

Sarr goes 1 to ATL
Castle goes 2 to WAS
Reed goes 3 to HOU

At that point it feels like Risacher is easily the choice right? Im guessing that Spurs really hope to have the choice of 2 of Castle/Risacher/Reed just have to see if it breaks that way. ATL taking Clingan is the most likely path to Castle being there for SA.

Personally I'd try to take and trade down with Clingan.

[Gandalf]

Imagine this scenario:

Sarr goes 1 to ATL
Castle goes 2 to WAS
Reed goes 3 to HOU



That would suck. I think I’ll be disappointed if we don’t get either Castle or Sheppard at 4, regardless of what else happens (assuming we don’t get either some other wacky way).

[Mr. Body]

The right pick for Washington if Sarr goes one is to either go Clingan or Castle. I mean, Risacher has no business being selected top 4. I can see Detroit taking him, but they may have better options. This would suck, but it's the smart play and might be what we see.

[z0sa]

Imagine this scenario:

Sarr goes 1 to ATL
Castle goes 2 to WAS
Reed goes 3 to HOU

At that point it feels like Risacher is easily the choice right? Im guessing that Spurs really hope to have the choice of 2 of Castle/Risacher/Reed just have to see if it breaks that way. ATL taking Clingan is the most likely path to Castle being there for SA.

It's a crap shoot, even if we knew where every player is going. I'm hoping Risacher is the man, and that he delivers, but he could easily be far down the actual PATFO's board. Even after it's all said and done, I think we'll be arguing all summer about whether it was the right choices or not. Fun time to be a Spurs fan, terrible season withstanding.

[scott]

Imagine this scenario:

Sarr goes 1 to ATL
Castle goes 2 to WAS
Reed goes 3 to HOU

At that point it feels like Risacher is easily the choice right? Im guessing that Spurs really hope to have the choice of 2 of Castle/Risacher/Reed just have to see if it breaks that way. ATL taking Clingan is the most likely path to Castle being there for SA.

Interesting scenario. I wonder in this case if you can't get CHA and MEM duking it out to move up to 4 for Clingan. If you can drop only to 6, it might be pretty nice as you'd pick up (some) asset and you'd still have whatever's left between Risacher and Buzelis at 6.

[Gandalf]

Interesting scenario. I wonder in this case if you can't get CHA and MEM duking it out to move up to 4 for Clingan. If you can drop only to 6, it might be pretty nice as you'd pick up (some) asset and you'd still have whatever's left between Risacher and Buzelis at 6.

I’d want Charlotte to take the protections on their first rounder way down, if possible.

[scott]

I’d want Charlotte to take the protections on their first rounder way down, if possible.

IMO, that's a bit of a bold ask unless you've got MEM on the line willing to cough up a FRP themselves. If you drop down to 9 and pick up an additional FRP, Carter/Salaun or Carter/Knecht become the most likely scenarios in my opinion.

[DPG21920]

Interesting scenario. I wonder in this case if you can't get CHA and MEM duking it out to move up to 4 for Clingan. If you can drop only to 6, it might be pretty nice as you'd pick up (some) asset and you'd still have whatever's left between Risacher and Buzelis at 6.

Ya - who knows. As of now I would feel pretty crappy leaving draft without one of Castle or Reed. I am more ok with a range of wings (Risacher, Cody, Buzelis, Holland) than I am with guards outside of maybe Carter at 8.

I’d honestly rather take Risacher and see if we can trade 8+a heavily protected first for 5 and just draft Clingan?

[Mr. Body]

IMO, that's a bit of a bold ask unless you've got MEM on the line willing to cough up a FRP themselves. If you drop down to 9 and pick up an additional FRP, Carter/Salaun or Carter/Knecht become the most likely scenarios in my opinion.

Interesting to game out I suppose. Going down to 6 and guessing Detroit takes Risacher, I'd probably take Buzelis, then Carter/Dillingham at 8.

Dropping down to 8, so having that and 9... Yeesh. It gets fairly bad. I don't think I can take both Carter and Dillingham but the players I want are pretty much gone. I probably go Carter and Cody Williams, but I leave the draft pretty disappointed. Maybe I'm hinging too much on getting Castle. I don't really like most of the wings.

I guess... Carter and then Topic with 9. Then I work the back end of the first round and try to move in and get a straggling wing with some promise like K George or Furphy. Leave Topic overseas for a year.

[BacktoBasics]

Seems like Castle is some kind of bizzaro world version of M. Smart. Seems he’d be an elite glue guy who might be able to eventually shoot well enough to not be a liability.

Vs.

Sheppard who’s a cross between a wannabe Stockton or smaller version of Reaves who everyone here wanted to give 80+ million to.

Castle has more flexibility between the two and the talk of Castle solely desiring the PG spot could probably be mitigated if he becomes a guy who routinely has the ball run through. I don’t think that means he has to be on ball. Just that he can be facilitator without having to be a flashy on ball pg.

Castle can definitely feed the post.

[rascal]

Interesting to game out I suppose. Going down to 6 and guessing Detroit takes Risacher, I'd probably take Buzelis, then Carter/Dillingham at 8.

Dropping down to 8, so having that and 9... Yeesh. It gets fairly bad. I don't think I can take both Carter and Dillingham but the players I want are pretty much gone. I probably go Carter and Cody Williams, but I leave the draft pretty disappointed. Maybe I'm hinging too much on getting Castle. I don't really like most of the wings.

I guess... Carter and then Topic with 9. Then I work the back end of the first round and try to move in and get a straggling wing with some promise like K George or Furphy. Leave Topic overseas for a year.

If Wash drafts Castle at 2 would you offer 4 and 8 to Wash for 2?

[Mr. Body]

If Wash drafts Castle at 2 would you offer 4 and 8 to Wash for 2?

No, but would see what else it would take. My guess is they took him because they liked him, though, so won't want to trade him.

[rascal]

No, but would see what else it would take. My guess is they took him because they liked him, though, so won't want to trade him.

That's why it'll cost you something like the 4 and 8 to get him. I'm not high on any player at 8.

[baseline bum]

Interesting scenario. I wonder in this case if you can't get CHA and MEM duking it out to move up to 4 for Clingan. If you can drop only to 6, it might be pretty nice as you'd pick up (some) asset and you'd still have whatever's left between Risacher and Buzelis at 6.

Could be interesting since if Castle is there at 4 he'll probably be there at 6 too if Charlotte does a pick swap to get Clingan 4, as the fit seems bad on Detroit. But yeah all Charlotte could offer me to do that deal would be dropping protections to say only top 4 protected on the 2025 pick. Which I don't think they'd do to get Clingan over Castle.

[scott]

Could be interesting since if Castle is there at 4 he'll probably be there at 6 too if Charlotte does a pick swap to get Clingan 4, as the fit seems bad on Detroit. But yeah all Charlotte could offer me to do that deal would be dropping protections to say only top 4 protected on the 2025 pick. Which I don't think they'd do to get Clingan over Castle.

If you felt VERY confident that no one was coming up to get Castle at 5 (which given that DET has talked about potentially moving out, I would not feel confident in at all) - I would probably accept a reduction to Top 6 or maaaaaybe 8 to move down two spots. CHA would have to go hard tank to fully protect that (which is not out of the question).

But in this scenario I was responding to… Castle got taken at 2, so it’s kind of moot. If Cligan and Castle are both there at 4 it means the top 3 was Risacher-Sarr-Reed, in which case I think DET will go Buzelis and you could have a little more confidence in dropping down to 6.

[ace3g]

https://youtu.be/P0_4zZiHB78?si=AGOOlrQHHZyUP32P

[FutureMan]

For those who know college basketball well.. who are the last few guards who shot under 27.5% from three that went on to be successful in the NBA?

[Borosai]

Castle is the main pick for me. I just feel he's going to take the Kawhi development route, minus the chronic issues he's had with his leg, and wiping his own ass. He'll be a day one contributor, and improve his offensive game along the way.

Shooters like Dillingham or Knecht with the second pick.

[spurraider21]

assuming the top 3 picks end up being Risacher/Sarr/Sheppard... then Castle/Dillingham is close to my ideal outcome

i think the player value is good, and it means they arent just wishcasting that Castle is the full time point guard

[Duncan2177]

Castle at 4
Cody at 8

[spurraider21]

this is wild :lol

from reddit

Givony talks about going to UConn games 2 hours early to watch Stephon Castle (projected #4 pick) warm up, trying to film 3 or 4 consecutive makes to post on instagram, and how it took 30-40 minutes to even get 2 consecutive makes from Castle — "this is alarming"
https://share.snipd.com/snip/f97820c7-8210-47ee-9eb3-156043f107bc

[lefty20]

this is wild :lol

from reddit

Givony talks about going to UConn games 2 hours early to watch Stephon Castle (projected #4 pick) warm up, trying to film 3 or 4 consecutive makes to post on instagram, and how it took 30-40 minutes to even get 2 consecutive makes from Castle — "this is alarming"


https://share.snipd.com/snip/f97820c7-8210-47ee-9eb3-156043f107bc

ST - "I can fix him"

[Ice009]

Wow, that is not good. I can do that without even if I hadn't shot the ball in 5 years (give me 20-30 minutes to get warmed up, get a feel again). That is NOT good. I really like what this kid brings on the court, but shooting is a huge part of basketball these days. If that is true, not sure what to think of that.

[Mr. Body]

this is wild :lol

from reddit

Givony talks about going to UConn games 2 hours early to watch Stephon Castle (projected #4 pick) warm up, trying to film 3 or 4 consecutive makes to post on instagram, and how it took 30-40 minutes to even get 2 consecutive makes from Castle — "this is alarming"
https://share.snipd.com/snip/f97820c7-8210-47ee-9eb3-156043f107bc

Givony has been making love to Risacher for months. He just claimed that Risacher was awesome at passing and loved contact in his recent workouts -- some of his biggest problems during actual games. He's the one who originated the trade where the Spurs were going to use 2+4 to trade up to get Risacher. And now he's attacking Castle with this preposterous claim out of the blue, one of the other key Spurs targets.

Just absurd.

[CGD]

Imagine this scenario:

Sarr goes 1 to ATL
Castle goes 2 to WAS
Reed goes 3 to HOU

At that point it feels like Risacher is easily the choice right? Im guessing that Spurs really hope to have the choice of 2 of Castle/Risacher/Reed just have to see if it breaks that way. ATL taking Clingan is the most likely path to Castle being there for SA.

I don’t see a world where the Spurs pass on ZR in this scenario.

[DPG21920]

I don’t see a world where the Spurs pass on ZR in this scenario.

True, which is what I think too, but seemingly less likely Risacher makes it to 4

[Sugus]

this is wild :lol

from reddit

Givony talks about going to UConn games 2 hours early to watch Stephon Castle (projected #4 pick) warm up, trying to film 3 or 4 consecutive makes to post on instagram, and how it took 30-40 minutes to even get 2 consecutive makes from Castle — "this is alarming"
https://share.snipd.com/snip/f97820c7-8210-47ee-9eb3-156043f107bc

https://media.tenor.com/7KvwCnSdBp0AAAAM/the-plot-thickens.gif

[BatManu20]

this is wild :lol

from reddit

Givony talks about going to UConn games 2 hours early to watch Stephon Castle (projected #4 pick) warm up, trying to film 3 or 4 consecutive makes to post on instagram, and how it took 30-40 minutes to even get 2 consecutive makes from Castle — "this is alarming"


https://share.snipd.com/snip/f97820c7-8210-47ee-9eb3-156043f107bc


He’s changed tbh. :cry

1790099019584110994

[SpursBills]

I put virtually zero stock in pretty much anything that happens after the NCAA tournament. You could tell me he missed or made 30 3s in a row in practice and my opinion probably still won't be changed.

History says he's got about a 50% chance of becoming a league average or better shooter. If he becomes one, he's a great starter for a contender with all-star upside in the vein of Suggs/Holiday. If he's a below average shooter hitting ~30% or below on low volume, he's probably an 8th man bench piece like current Dyson Daniels. If his shooting doesn't translate and his defense is only above average then he's probably an end of bench rotation guy. No warm up shooting should realistically affect anyone's perception of his shooting prospects down the line.

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302519&page=340&p=11069251&viewfull=1#post11069251

[Mr. Body]

The story is what the fuck is going on with Givony. He used to be highly respected, but I don't trust any ESPN employee whatsoever. What he's been doing is down low gross.

[Em-City]

Castle is feeling like the safest pick at 4 right now

[DPG21920]

Castle is feeling like the safest pick at 4 right now

Safe as in most likely? Because there are no safe picks IMO in terms of being sure you have a high caliber nba player

[Ariel]

He’s changed tbh. :cry

1790099019584110994
Even if you believe his shooting in practice is closer to his game average of 27% than his combine 72%, the only way he takes 30 or 40 minutes to make 2 in a row is if he takes his first shot, goes for a sandwich, and comes back to keep shooting half an hour later. I'd run the numbers but I'd be accused of derailing the thread :lol

[spurraider21]

Safe as in most likely? Because there are no safe picks IMO in terms of being sure you have a high caliber nba player
id say its the safest bet as far as what the outcome will be

i do think castle is "safe" in that even if things dont work out great for him, he still has a floor as an nba player, even if its just a bench defender type

[DPG21920]

id say its the safest bet as far as what the outcome will be

i do think castle is "safe" in that even if things dont work out great for him, he still has a floor as an nba player, even if its just a bench defender type

I disagree there (personally). Not that I don’t like Castle but I think his floor is out of the league like/passed around barely hanging on Winslow type if things dont go well.

[scott]

I put virtually zero stock in pretty much anything that happens after the NCAA tournament. You could tell me he missed or made 30 3s in a row in practice and my opinion probably still won't be changed.

History says he's got about a 50% chance of becoming a league average or better shooter. If he becomes one, he's a great starter for a contender with all-star upside in the vein of Suggs/Holiday. If he's a below average shooter hitting ~30% or below on low volume, he's probably an 8th man bench piece like current Dyson Daniels. If his shooting doesn't translate and his defense is only above average then he's probably an end of bench rotation guy. No warm up shooting should realistically affect anyone's perception of his shooting prospects down the line.

https://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302519&page=340&p=11069251&viewfull=1#post11069251

If you think his shooting is the key driver to the upper end of his outcomes, I'll take a coin-flip odds every time.

[PhantomDashCam]

1805248841978925530

The shooting concerns, illustrated. He’s my third favourite prospect though (behind Sheppard and Buzelis).

[spurraider21]

1805248841978925530

The shooting concerns, illustrated. He’s my third favourite prospect though (behind Sheppard and Buzelis).
now go find buzelis' chart

[rankingtear]

He did shoot 24% on unguarded C&S 3 that is a major oulier. Bad shooting prospects are in the low 30's.

[PhantomDashCam]

now go find buzelis' chart

From the college line too? This isn’t about tearing one prospect down to elevate another tbh.
I buy Buzelis’ shot more atm in a structured system, similar to what Castle had access to at UCONN.

Here it is though:

1773564238017290660

[offset formation]

now go find buzelis' chart

He's good from the left corner which tells you he can get better with reps. It's never a good sign to just be below average from all zones. But being a 40% shot maker on his highest volume shot from the left corner is a positive sign.

Bruce Bowen made a killing on those and was even good by the end of his career from the 45° 3 pt area.

I think Buzelis' numbers are a bit deceiving given they range from 20% to 40%. The high end gives you his cieling not the low end giving you his floor imo.

[objective]

I'm out on Castle, but even more out on Buzelis

[Mr. Body]

It's funny how Sarr and even Clingan are discussed as if they can develop to become three-point threats, but for other players it's too late. Draft season is all about creating rules and then not applying them equally.

[spurraider21]

It's funny how Sarr and even Clingan are discussed as if they can develop to become three-point threats, but for other players it's too late. Draft season is all about creating rules and then not applying them equally.
centers get more uncontested looks, so having a slow, uncomfortable release is less of an issue, especially given the naturally high release point of the shot

[DPG21920]

Yup and no one is truly drafting those guys based on realistic expectations they are shooters. Thats not even factored into their worth. Castles largely hinges on it.

[Mr. Body]

centers get more uncontested looks, so having a slow, uncomfortable release is less of an issue, especially given the naturally high release point of the shot

Nah, that's not it.

[Mr. Body]

Yup and no one is truly drafting those guys based on realistic expectations they are shooters. Thats not even factored into their worth. Castles largely hinges on it.

No it doesn't.

[DPG21920]

No it doesn't.

It very much does.

[DPG21920]

Just have to see how it shakes out! Hopefully he can at least be a Marcus Smart type where he can play point guard enough and defend at a high level and have the occasional 3PT make at 33%+

Is he Jimmy Butler? Is he Dante Exum or Evan Turner? Hard to tell

[DAF86]

No it doesn't.

It definitely does, if he doesn't develop his shot at a respectable level, he can be elite at everything else and it won't matter. Name me one championship level guard that can't shoot on today's NBA.

[CGD]

The story is what the fuck is going on with Givony. He used to be highly respected, but I don't trust any ESPN employee whatsoever. What he's been doing is down low gross.

I think he’s getting pressured to do the hot takes stuff by ESPN. Essentially to be the Woj of the draft. But he’s failing miserably.

[Dejounte]

You either die a hero or you live long enough to be a villain is what happened to Givony. But the gullible people here will eat up anything he shits out so…

[Atl Spur]

I think this kid has the right makeup for team, he will be a better pro than college athlete.

Still slinging shit Rc? Gold in this thread

[exstatic]

You either die a hero or you live long enough to be a villain is what happened to Givony. But the gullible people here will eat up anything he shits out so…

The same thing happened to both Givony and Zach Lowe. They were knowledgeable basketball guys that ESPN pressured to become hot take guys. Givony went along, and still has his job. Lowe did not, and he’s unemployed.

[exstatic]

Still slinging shit Rc? Gold in this thread

Dude, if you don’t stop that, you’ll go blind.

[Mr. Body]

It's only been three games, but I feel confident saying upthread that Castle's worth in the league exists even without a great jumpshot. I think he'll develop one, but even without he has a place in this league. A big, strong, good-defending guard who can distribute the ball and pressure the rim has value.

[scott]

Right now I think his ceiling is high-level starter/elite defender if the 3 ball never comes around... if he can develop a 3pt shot though... the ceiling is All-NBA IMO.

[exstatic]

Right now I think his ceiling is high-level starter/elite defender if the 3 ball never comes around... if he can develop a 3pt shot though... the ceiling is All-NBA IMO.
Yup. His handle is tight enough that he can get to the cup without a jump shot. He just moves around a defender, or bumps them out of his way.

[LeBowen]

Right now I think his ceiling is high-level starter/elite defender if the 3 ball never comes around... if he can develop a 3pt shot though... the ceiling is All-NBA IMO.

Jimmy got all-NBA selections in consecutive seasons while shooting 24% from 3pt.
I'm not saying he's going to get on Jimmy's level, but if he becomes an elite defender and averages like 18/8 he'll be more valuable than those negative defense 25ppg scorers.

[Ice009]

Jimmy got all-NBA selections in consecutive seasons while shooting 24% from 3pt.
I'm not saying he's going to get on Jimmy's level, but if he becomes an elite defender and averages like 18/8 he'll be more valuable than those negative defense 25ppg scorers.

I don't watch the Rockets at all, and I don't mean to trash the guy, but I assume Jalen Green is one of those players? Watching him against the Spurs, he scored great, but doesn't seem like he was doing much else. I don't remember him grabbing rebounds or passing the ball much. I'd rather a player like Castle if he can average something like 18/8 compared to a guy scoring 25 and doing nothing else.

[Atl Spur]

Dude, if you don’t stop that, you’ll go blind.

Stay in your lane; Rc asked for this and he’s gonna get it! Don’t say dumb shit and I won’t speak on you in any way.

[Atl Spur]

Just so you ex or whatever you call yourself, there’s levels to this. No fluff

[objective]

Shooting 0% on threes, already rattled passing up open 3s even in garbage time ...

Can only get better from here

[Ice009]

If this was 2012-15 or whatever those years were with Danny on the team, I'd be all over him saying I could hit a higher percentage of those wide open shots, but I'll leave Steph alone. Not good at all.

[objective]

It's weird how the combine numbers for Jalen Williams and Castle were so close in height and weight, Castle being 1.0 inches and 0.8 pounds bigger than Williams, but last night Williams looked huge in comparison. Looked like he had 1-2 inches and 25 pounds on Castle

[spurraider21]

It's weird how the combine numbers for Jalen Williams and Castle were so close in height and weight, Castle being 1.0 inches and 0.8 pounds bigger than Williams, but last night Williams looked huge in comparison. Looked like he had 1-2 inches and 25 pounds on Castle
while Castle has a solid 6'9 wingspan for his 6'5 height, J-Dub has an absurd 7'2 wingspan.

j-dub is also 4 years older so he's had more of a chance to develop his body

[onechance87]

Castle d has been good,But his offense so bad that its hurting him.Wont be suprised to see him get sent
to austin work on his offenssive game when tre returns.Hopefully castle can turn it around tonight or something.