Stephon Castle - 2024 NBA Draft Prospect

[timvp]

https://www.spurstalk.com/stephon-castle-spurs-2024-nba-draft/

[Uriel]

It’s disappointing to hear that Castle grades out as a mid-late first round pick in analytics models. Could that be because he was used as a system player within UConn’s offense (thereby dampening his numbers)?

[jesterbobman]

I think the Castle being low (ish) in analytic models is due to a few things:
1. Mostly, you assume that there's a relationship between usage% and efficiency. Castle was low usage and middling efficiency, and his strengths don't fit well in an off ball role. He's probably going to be a flat, low efficiency scorer regardless of his role.
2. His defensive strengths are in being a brick shithouse (is this a term in the States. I've never really known) and not being bumped off the ball, rater than event generation that shows up in stats.

I think the Castle case is that there are multiple skills that are close to being good enough to be playable. If he can be a secondary playmaker who's a bit better than he is now or become a midlevel playmaking PG, or a bit better as a shooter, or generate a few more events on defense with the coaching to up his risk taking, or...

He's a solid player if he hits one of those, really good if he hits 2/3, an all star ish player if he hits 3.

[DAF86]

Castle and Sochan in a starting lineup can’t work if the other team is able to ignore both players when parked behind the three-point arc. Add Tre Jones in the starting lineup and things would get muddy very fast

:vomit:

[DAF86]

Serious question for folks that really want Castle, what kind of player do you expect from him?

I want Risacher but because I expect a Nicolas Batum type player. I'm not really expecting an all-star type player. For Castle to be worth the pick, I think he would need to become a borderline all-star player (a Jrue Holiday type) and I just don't see it, tbh.

[Spurs Homer]

Of course- houston likely will pass...because of shooting...

Spurs - who are in dire need of shooters - will grab the non-shooter because?

Watching brick after brick after brick all last season while the opponents hit 3 after three after three from all five people on their team...

and the spurs draft MOAR BRICK-LAYERS!

[DAF86]

Of course- houston likely will pass...because of shooting...

Spurs - who are in dire need of shooters - will grab the non-shooter because?

Exactly. :lol

I would be fine with Castle if he would have shown any kind of sign of being able to develop his shot, but he didn't. He might be like Sochan and shoot a respectable % on low volume someday, but that won't be enough.

[LeBowen]

Of course- houston likely will pass...because of shooting...

Because we have zero point of attack defenders. Jeremy is too slow to keep up with elite guards, noone else is good enough.
Houston has Amen who's exactly the same type of player, was an even better prospect.


Spurs - who are in dire need of shooters - will grab the non-shooter because?

Because Spurs also need defense and none of these prospects are projected to be two-way players.
Defenders have a chance of developing a shot, while the likes of Sheppard, Dillingham and Knecht will always be limited with their lack of size or athleticism.

I honestly have no clue what's the better option, it's a really hard decision to make.
I just don't want Topic or Buzelis who are NBA players in theory and have nothing going for them right now.

Risacher won't be there at #4, everyone else is a gamble.

[kobyz]

Serious question for folks that really want Castle, what kind of player do you expect from him?

I want Risacher but because I expect a Nicolas Batum type player. I'm not really expecting an all-star type player. For Castle to be worth the pick, I think he would need to become a borderline all-star player (a Jrue Holiday type) and I just don't see it, tbh.
If he develops a 3 point shot he's J-Dub

[Spurs Homer]

Because we have zero point of attack defenders. Jeremy is too slow to keep up with elite guards, noone else is good enough.
Houston has Amen who's exactly the same type of player, was an even better prospect.



Because Spurs also need defense and none of these prospects are projected to be two-way players.
Defenders have a chance of developing a shot, while the likes of Sheppard, Dillingham and Knecht will always be limited with their lack of size or athleticism.

I honestly have no clue what's the better option, it's a really hard decision to make.
I just don't want Topic or Buzelis who are NBA players in theory and have nothing going for them right now.

Risacher won't be there at #4, everyone else is a gamble.


My EYES say:

Dillingham @4
Buzelis (or sheppard or even Knecht) @8

Done

Wemby with two premium shooters along with Sochan and Vassell is a good start and trading away vassell and zollins for another vet will be the cherry on top...

[couchman]

That jumper is absolutely horrible.
For starters, the mechanics look bad. This is a total rebuild.
The 26% 3pt number is even worse when you look at the tape.
Most of the ones he took are wide open (many without a contest) and he still hit a pathetic percentage.
If the goal is to get guys compatible with Wemby I just don’t see how we take this guy at 4. Maybe at 8.

[LeBowen]

My EYES say:

Dillingham @4
Buzelis (or sheppard or even Knecht) @8

Done

Wemby with two premium shooters along with Sochan and Vassell is a good start and trading away vassell and zollins for another vet will be the cherry on top...

1) Why would you pick Dillingham at #4? Blazers, Hornets and Pistons aren't taking a 160lbs guard with awful defense, they have their star guards. He'll be there at #8 if he's there at #4.
2) Buzelis can't shoot.
3) Sheppard is an undersized shooting guard.

[BatManu20]

Castle's still my guy at 4 as of right now. Risacher will be long gone and any prospect we take is going to be a gamble cause it's a shit draft. Just the way it is unfortunately. Castle at least offers great (and potentially elite) Defense right off the bat and has the size and length to defend 1-3.

I don't see him as a PG personally, despite his claims that he is one and was simply being held back at UCONN due to positional fit (he was ranked as a 5-Star PG coming out of HS, to be fair), so using the #8 pick on someone like Dillingham (if he's available) would be just fine with me. As a matter of fact, those are the 2 guys I want. I think their skill sets compliment each other and both would be a considerable upgrade to what we currently have on the roster. You get a lead scoring Guard in Dilly whose defensive limitations can be somewhat offset by Wemby and Castle, and you get an off-ball wing defender in Castle who, if he improves his 3-point shot, could easily turn out to be one of the best players in this draft down the line.

[Mr. Body]

In this draft, there are two players who combine shooting and defense in any measure, Risacher and Reed Sheppard. But they appear to top out as role players. Too slow, limited handles, limited in defensive upside, etc. I'll leave out Carter for now.

That's it.

Or, you go for a player who is very strong in key categories and believe you can improve what is missing. Someone posted how often players of Castle's skillset hit in the lottery and it's actually pretty high, with results from Kawhi to Oladipo, and the reason, I'd say, is that these guys are good at basketball. Once you get shooting to league average, they are seriously good.

I'm not worried about advanced analytics, whatever those are. I think jesterbobman is absolutely correct. He doesn't have the flash stats that some like. Castle did not get big stocks. (A player who also did not get big stocks: Kawhi.)

The value of Castle's defense is that he's relentless, but very smooth and measured, meaning he regains position without rush. His rotations are extremely fluid, he sees what to do very, very well, and he harasses without being chaotic. He does foul a bit too much, but that's seasoning. Most important, he walls up superbly. He contests with strength, length, tightness, without gambling. In a league where defense is practically illegal, this is really important.

In the end, you have to pick someone in this draft. It's easy to say, "I want a shooter!" and then bitch when that guy is a bad defender. It's easy to say, "I want a defender!" and then whine when their shooting isn't great. Don't you realize nearly everyone in this draft is a questionable shooter? Nearly everyone in the top 10 last year was a questionable shooter.

Get the guy who is good at basketball and whose final skill is shooting. At worst you have a very strong defender who is a great glue guy. If he improves, you've just raised your floor and ceiling at the same time.

[DAF86]

If he develops a 3 point shot he's J-Dub

It is very unlikely that he ever develops his 3pt shot to that extent. Even if he did, Castle doesn't the handles, nor the pull-up game to become an all-star type player. He basically would need to improve his entire offensive repertoire.

[BatManu20]

It is very unlikely that he ever develops his 3pt shot to that extent. Even if he did, Castle doesn't the handles, nor the pull-up game to become an all-star type player. He basically would need to improve his entire offensive repertoire.

Scouting reports said the same about Jimmy Butler coming out of Marquette. Not saying Castle will become Jimmy, but he at least has the physical tools to become a similar type of player. He's also a high-character kid who reportedly loves the game and really wants to be great, if you believe the scouting reports and his head coach Dan Hurley at UCONN who raves about him. Castle comes across that way in interviews as well. That goes a long way with teams.

Here is DraftExpress' breakdown of Jimmy Butler coming out of Marquette:


Butler has two major obstacles in emerging as a high-level draft prospect. First, he is not a tremendous physical specimen. Built similarly to former Memphis prospect Shawne Williams, Butler is very smooth on the court, using rangy strides to get to the rim. However, he lacks explosiveness, a strong frame, and great lateral quickness. Butler does have a long wingspan and good size for a small forward, the position he's projected to play in the NBA, but scouts will put his athleticism under the microscope as he faces NBA caliber athletes virtually every night in Big East play.

The second obstacle Butler faces in proving his mettle as a prospect revolves around the roles he's played offensively. Spending some time out on the perimeter where he showed remarkable progress as a junior, Butler spent a large portion of his minutes as a sophomore acting as the de facto power forward when injuries plagued Marquette's undersized lineup, getting almost half of his touches off of cuts and offensive rebounds. Endearing himself to Williams with his play defensively, efficiency crashing the glass, and knack for finishing opportunities his teammates created for him, Butler branched out considerably last season, but could still use more touches out on the wing to continue refining his budding perimeter game.

Butler's development last season, coupled with his solid basketball IQ and functional, albeit simple ball-handling repertoire allowed him to score effectively in both spot-up and isolation situations last season while not turning the ball over at a high rate. Though Butler's jumper gives him intrigue as a prospect, his ability to get to the basket is what made him such a versatile threat last season. He isn't going to blow by anyone off the dribble, but he's developed his right hand to the point that he can take what defenders give him on the perimeter. He uses his body exceptionally well to shield the ball and exploits his rangy strides to create some good looks for himself around the rim. Able to create easy looks by attacking in one-on-one situations, crashing the glass, or ducking in when his teammates penetrate, Butler shows a knack for capitalizing on his ability to be in the right place at the right time. A very solid finisher despite the fact that he gets his shots blocked by more athletic defenders on occasion, lacks great strength, and seldom plays above the rim, Butler shows good body-control and a good feel for using angles to make plays.

Defensively, Butler shows excellent discipline. Much like Lazar Hayward last season, Butler does an excellent job of staying in position and has excellent fundamentals, but doesn't have the lateral quickness to recover when he's beat. Unlike Hayward, who could use his strength to defend much bigger players in the paint, Butler's best asset is his wingspan. Though he does his best to prevent his man from getting position, his lack of great strength hurts him in the post, but he contests shots well and can make an impact in the passing lanes. His lack of leaping ability limits him as a rebounder, but he gives ample effort cleaning the glass.

Though there is a ton to like about Butler on the college level, he has some work to do on his NBA draft stock. His physical limitations will make his play this season that much more important to his pro-prospects, but if he's able to become a high caliber shooting threat and more dynamic in one-on-one situations, he could garner some attention. A strong candidate for the Portsmouth Invitational Tournament, Butler's transition from roleplayer to potential first option will be one to keep an eye on, as he could make a splash if he remains as efficient as he has been.

This sounds a lot like Castle to me tbh. Again, not saying he'll ever reach Jimmy's level, but the upside to do so is there. They're very similar players coming out of college, with almost identical measurables, and using Jimmy as a template for Castle imo makes him very intriguing to teams, especially in a weaker draft. It's easy to see why the Spurs would be interested in him tbh.

[Mr. Body]

As for the workout thing... gaming this out.

If dude truly wants to be a 30% usage PG, he's mistaken. This isn't his future. He's too slow, his vision isn't the greatest.

But I get his point: he doesn't want to exclusively play off-ball watching LaMello or Scoot do everything. Rumor included him thinking about his career. Recognizes, I think, that he taps out as a role player for the first five or six years at least on those teams, mostly forgotten. A defensive specialist only doing a lot of ball watching.

Now, if he means he wants to be LaMello Ball, he's crazy.

But he's not crazy. I don't get that impression. He has a good camp on his side (it seems). He made a very heady decision in picking UConn right before UConn became this "two dominant championship seasons" UConn.

But it's still pretty risky for a semi-marginal point to say he wants to run point. Honestly the most fascinating thing in this draft so far.

Because this boxes out almost every team in the top 10. So... either he's cool with sliding. Which may be true. He really, really hates Tre Jones and Tyus Jones, which may be true. He's signaling to the world what he has to offer. Or he's targeting either the Wizards or the Spurs with or without any promise from their side.

I think, if he legit thinks he's LaMello Ball, that's a problem, because on offense he's not LaMallo Ball. If he legit is cool with sliding to a later team (which ones?), that's pretty fascinating, as he's placing longterm thinking over short term money. And if he's legit targeting the Spurs, that's wild because it's risky.

My gut says that he's going to be absolutely okay with a Spurs system where he can handle the ball a lot, organize up sets, but is far from exclusive in that role, but that his ability to make quick read-and-reacts in a motion offense is what he wants. Or even that he doesn't really want to be a pure PG, but that's trying to avoid going to dodgy situations in Charlotte, etc.

[Ginobili2Duncan]

In this draft, there are two players who combine shooting and defense in any measure, Risacher and Reed Sheppard. But they appear to top out as role players. Too slow, limited handles, limited in defensive upside, etc. I'll leave out Carter for now.

That's it.

Or, you go for a player who is very strong in key categories and believe you can improve what is missing. Someone posted how often players of Castle's skillset hit in the lottery and it's actually pretty high, with results from Kawhi to Oladipo, and the reason, I'd say, is that these guys are good at basketball. Once you get shooting to league average, they are seriously good.

I'm not worried about advanced analytics, whatever those are. I think jesterbobman is absolutely correct. He doesn't have the flash stats that some like. Castle did not get big stocks. (A player who also did not get big stocks: Kawhi.)

The value of Castle's defense is that he's relentless, but very smooth and measured, meaning he regains position without rush. His rotations are extremely fluid, he sees what to do very, very well, and he harasses without being chaotic. He does foul a bit too much, but that's seasoning. Most important, he walls up superbly. He contests with strength, length, tightness, without gambling. In a league where defense is practically illegal, this is really important.

In the end, you have to pick someone in this draft. It's easy to say, "I want a shooter!" and then bitch when that guy is a bad defender. It's easy to say, "I want a defender!" and then whine when their shooting isn't great. Don't you realize nearly everyone in this draft is a questionable shooter? Nearly everyone in the top 10 last year was a questionable shooter.

Get the guy who is good at basketball and whose final skill is shooting. At worst you have a very strong defender who is a great glue guy. If he improves, you've just raised your floor and ceiling at the same time.

Quit it bro you’re making too much sense. Don’t you realize this is a competition to see who can be the most edgy and pessimistic fan on this board?

[Spurs Homer]

1) Why would you pick Dillingham at #4? Blazers, Hornets and Pistons aren't taking a 160lbs guard with awful defense, they have their star guards. He'll be there at #8 if he's there at #4.
2) Buzelis can't shoot.
3) Sheppard is an undersized shooting guard.

Dillingham FITS WITH WEMBY better than all other options and that should be the #1 priority imo

why gamble he will be there at 8 if he is the best fit with wemby? Dillingham can shoot lights out, is sneaky fast, wants to be in S.A. and the spurs need a PG now

buzelis - if you watch some film- looks fluid, has size, has great mechanics in his shot, handles are good, and just looks comfortably competent to my eyes

sheppard is a true pure shooter and you cannot teach that
sheppard is needed to offset bricklayers like sochan, zollins, wesley, tre jones, keldon, etc

[DAF86]

Quit it bro you’re making too much sense. Don’t you realize this is a competition to see who can be the most edgy and pessimistic fan on this board?

It would only be pessimistic if we had already drafted Castle and we would be here bitching about him, tbh. :lol

So far, we are only showing concern about a prospect that might or might not end up being a Spur.

[DAF86]

Scouting reports said the same about Jimmy Butler coming out of Marquette. Not saying Castle will become Jimmy, but he at least has the physical tools to become a similar type of player. He's also a high-character kid who reportedly loves the game and really wants to be great, if you believe the scouting reports and his head coach Dan Hurley at UCONN who raves about him. Castle comes across that way in interviews as well. That goes a long way with teams.

Here is DraftExpress' breakdown of Jimmy Butler coming out of Marquette:



This sounds a lot like Castle to me tbh. Again, not saying he'll ever reach Jimmy's level, but the upside to do so is there. They're very similar players coming out of college, with almost identical measurables, and using Jimmy as a template for Castle imo makes him very intriguing to teams, especially in a weaker draft. It's easy to see why the Spurs would be interested in him tbh.

Butler shot 38% from 3 in college.

[BatManu20]

Butler shot 38% from 3 in college.

On less than 1 attempt per game. Castle attempted over 2 as a Freshman, which knocks is percentage. Butler didn't even attempt 3's his first year at Marquette. He didn't start shooting them until his Sophomore season and then finally attempted 1.5 per game his Junior year at 35%. All we know is what Castle looked like as a Freshman. He could easily improve the same way Jimmy did over the next 2 years. Even if Castle doesn't ever become a knockdown shooter, he will almost certainly improve enough to become a respectable one in due time. Couple that with his elite Defense and you have a really good player to surround Wemby with.

[Mugen]

If he had absolutely no semblance of playmaking nor passing ability, then he'd be a lock to play point for the old man tbh :lol

[Ginobili2Duncan]

It would only be pessimistic if we had already drafted Castle and we would be here bitching about him, tbh. :lol

So far, we are only showing concern about a prospect that might or might not end up being a Spur.

Not you in particular but I’ve been lurking on this board since high school and the amount of whining and cliff jumping is wild. There’s discourse and there’s acting like an emotional bussy at every decision made by the FO. There’s way more of the latter.

[NASpurs]

The dude reminds me of Jimmy Butler and is a proven winner. Do it RC

[SpursFan86]

I like Castle, just please get a fucking shooter with the other pick. Castle/Sheppard is my ideal duo probably, although seems like a bit of a long shot.

[Kevin]

I like Castle, just please get a fucking shooter with the other pick. Castle/Sheppard is my ideal duo probably, although seems like a bit of a long shot.

I feel the same way. Castle's size, defense and driving ability give him a really nice floor. Its not like his shot is completely broken like Sochan either. Good chance he can turn into a good shooter.

[mo7888]

In this draft, there are two players who combine shooting and defense in any measure, Risacher and Reed Sheppard. But they appear to top out as role players. Too slow, limited handles, limited in defensive upside, etc. I'll leave out Carter for now.

That's it.

Or, you go for a player who is very strong in key categories and believe you can improve what is missing. Someone posted how often players of Castle's skillset hit in the lottery and it's actually pretty high, with results from Kawhi to Oladipo, and the reason, I'd say, is that these guys are good at basketball. Once you get shooting to league average, they are seriously good.

I'm not worried about advanced analytics, whatever those are. I think jesterbobman is absolutely correct. He doesn't have the flash stats that some like. Castle did not get big stocks. (A player who also did not get big stocks: Kawhi.)

The value of Castle's defense is that he's relentless, but very smooth and measured, meaning he regains position without rush. His rotations are extremely fluid, he sees what to do very, very well, and he harasses without being chaotic. He does foul a bit too much, but that's seasoning. Most important, he walls up superbly. He contests with strength, length, tightness, without gambling. In a league where defense is practically illegal, this is really important.

In the end, you have to pick someone in this draft. It's easy to say, "I want a shooter!" and then bitch when that guy is a bad defender. It's easy to say, "I want a defender!" and then whine when their shooting isn't great. Don't you realize nearly everyone in this draft is a questionable shooter? Nearly everyone in the top 10 last year was a questionable shooter.

Get the guy who is good at basketball and whose final skill is shooting. At worst you have a very strong defender who is a great glue guy. If he improves, you've just raised your floor and ceiling at the same time.

Your post does bring out a couple philosophical points to consider:

1) Upside vs Floor- I'm most cases you want to err in the direction of choosing upside, but in a draft as poor as this one does that calculus change? Does upside have a lesser chance of 'hitting' than in other drafts to the point that taking the 'floor' just makes more sense?

2) Is this draft really as poor as we think? Or have we been overly influenced by media types telling is that it is?

[DAF86]

On less than 1 attempt per game. Castle attempted over 2 as a Freshman, which knocks is percentage. Butler didn't even attempt 3's his first year at Marquette. He didn't start shooting them until his Sophomore season and then finally attempted 1.5 per game his Junior year at 35%. All we know is what Castle looked like as a Freshman. He could easily improve the same way Jimmy did over the next 2 years. Even if he doesn't ever become a knockdown shooter, he will almost certainly improve enough to become a respectable one in due time.

Yeah, he could improve, but what are the chances of him becoming a Jimmy Butler? Less than very slim.

What are the chances of him becoming a true reliable 3pt threat? Again, very slim.

My problem with Castle is that his most likely outcome is becoming an Anthony Black, tbh.

[exstatic]

As for the workout thing... gaming this out.

If dude truly wants to be a 30% usage PG, he's mistaken. This isn't his future. He's too slow, his vision isn't the greatest.

But I get his point: he doesn't want to exclusively play off-ball watching LaMello or Scoot do everything. Rumor included him thinking about his career. Recognizes, I think, that he taps out as a role player for the first five or six years at least on those teams, mostly forgotten. A defensive specialist only doing a lot of ball watching.

Now, if he means he wants to be LaMello Ball, he's crazy.

But he's not crazy. I don't get that impression. He has a good camp on his side (it seems). He made a very heady decision in picking UConn right before UConn became this "two dominant championship seasons" UConn.

But it's still pretty risky for a semi-marginal point to say he wants to run point. Honestly the most fascinating thing in this draft so far.

Because this boxes out almost every team in the top 10. So... either he's cool with sliding. Which may be true. He really, really hates Tre Jones and Tyus Jones, which may be true. He's signaling to the world what he has to offer. Or he's targeting either the Wizards or the Spurs with or without any promise from their side.

I think, if he legit thinks he's LaMello Ball, that's a problem, because on offense he's not LaMallo Ball. If he legit is cool with sliding to a later team (which ones?), that's pretty fascinating, as he's placing longterm thinking over short term money. And if he's legit targeting the Spurs, that's wild because it's risky.

My gut says that he's going to be absolutely okay with a Spurs system where he can handle the ball a lot, organize up sets, but is far from exclusive in that role, but that his ability to make quick read-and-reacts in a motion offense is what he wants. Or even that he doesn't really want to be a pure PG, but that's trying to avoid going to dodgy situations in Charlotte, etc.

I don’t think he wants to be a 30% guy so much as he doesn’t want to be an 18% guy playing 100% off ball.

[exstatic]

Butler shot 38% from 3 in college.

Butler shot 0% from 3 as a freshman, which is was Castle is. That 38% was based on 0.9 attempts per game over his last two seasons. Not exactly a decent sample size.

[exstatic]

Yeah, he could improve, but what are the chances of him becoming a Jimmy Butler? Less than very slim.

What are the chances of him becoming a true reliable 3pt threat? Again, very slim.

My problem with Castle is that his most likely outcome is becoming an Anthony Black, tbh.

Anthony black shot 39.4% on 1.4 attempts in 17 minutes from a further 3 point line than Jimmy did in college.

[LeBowen]

Dillingham FITS WITH WEMBY better than all other options and that should be the #1 priority imo

why gamble he will be there at 8 if he is the best fit with wemby? Dillingham can shoot lights out, is sneaky fast, wants to be is S.A. and the spurs need a PG now


Why is he the best fit with Wemby? We don't know if his skillset will translate to the NBA.
I'm all for taking a gamble with high upside player with #8 pick, but we need someone who's guaranteed to contribute from day1 with #4.


buzelis - if you watch some film- looks fluid, has size, has great mechanics in his shot, handles are good, and just looks comfortably competent to my eyes

He played for Ignite that's getting disbanded, most players from Ignite are busts.
I don't care about mechanics if he's shooting 27% in G-league's worst team.
Before you mention Wemby's 3pt% in France, he was playing with grown men.


sheppard is a true pure shooter and you cannot teach that

Yeah, let's get the next Patty Mills with #4 pick.


sheppard is needed to offset bricklayers like sochan, zollins, wesley, tre jones, keldon, etc

We offset those bricklayers by removing them from rotation.

[Kevin]

Crazy at how much love Anthony Black had around here a year ago at this time and now everyone is down on him. I strongly suspect this is the case because Black doesn't play for the Spurs and he had a pretty normal rookie campaign that came with some bumps and bruises.

If Black played for the Spurs we would be chest deep in DJM comparisons right now.

[Extra Stout]

The Spurs should draft a player who is good at both shooting and defense, and is immediately ready to contribute, and should not allow the lack of existence of such a player in this draft to stop them. If they are so smart, they should be able to conjure a player into existence.

[DAF86]

Anthony black shot 39.4% on 1.4 attempts in 17 minutes from a further 3 point line than Jimmy did in college.

So, a much better shooter than Castle. In fact, a much better prospect all around. Black in this year's draft might even go #1. Still, the chances of Black ever becoming a rotation piece are 50/50, at best. The chances of him becoming a top 5 player in a team are even lower. Those are the same odds Castle has, I fear.

I much rather have a guy like Sheppard, that projects as a Patty Mills with defensive playmaking, at worst.

[exstatic]

So, a much better shooter than Castle. In fact, a much better prospect all around. Black in this year's draft might even go #1. Still, the chances of Black ever becoming a rotation piece are 50/50, at best. The chances of him becoming a top 5 player in a team are even lower. Those are the same odds Castle has, I fear.

I much rather have a guy like Sheppard, that projects as a Patty Mills with defensive playmaking, at worst.
Black shot 30% at Arkansas, and improved his shot in the NBA. Imagine that. Not a real pretty form, either.

[DesignatedT]

I think the floor for Castle is a Marcus Smart type of player but I do think his shooting will improve and I do like the Jimmy Butler comp if he can put it all together. Just not sure there is that many other guys who have that type of upside.

[Extra Stout]

So, a much better shooter than Castle. In fact, a much better prospect all around. Black in this year's draft might even go #1. Still, the chances of Black ever becoming a rotation piece are 50/50, at best. The chances of him becoming a top 5 player in a team are even lower. Those are the same odds Castle has, I fear.

I much rather have a guy like Sheppard, that projects as a Patty Mills with defensive playmaking, at worst.
Saying that Black would go #1 is more an argument for dumping the #4 and #8 pick for whatever you can get and punting until 2025 than it is an argument for Sheppard.

[exstatic]

So, a much better shooter than Castle. In fact, a much better prospect all around. Black in this year's draft might even go #1. Still, the chances of Black ever becoming a rotation piece are 50/50, at best. The chances of him becoming a top 5 player in a team are even lower. Those are the same odds Castle has, I fear.

I much rather have a guy like Sheppard, that projects as a Patty Mills with defensive playmaking, at worst.

Nope (https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=stephon-castle--anthony-black)

I like Anthony Black,and am one of his few supporters here, but the link above shows a similar physical profile, and the green dots are split about evenly.

[DAF86]

Why is he the best fit with Wemby? We don't know if his skillset will translate to the NBA.
I'm all for taking a gamble with high upside player with #8 pick, but we need someone who's guaranteed to contribute from day1 with #4.

Dillingham's shooting is a lot more "translatable" than Castle's defense. There will always be open looks to be had in the NBA. Being able to defend on the NBA as well as you did in college is a bigger challenge than knocking down open shots.


He played for Ignite that's getting disbanded, most players from Ignite are busts.
I don't care about mechanics if he's shooting 27% in G-league's worst team.
Before you mention Wemby's 3pt% in France, he was playing with grown men.

So you have a problem with 27% from NBA 3pt line on bigger volume, but no problem with 26% on wide ass open looks from the college 3pt line? :lol


Yeah, let's get the next Patty Mills with #4 pick.

Better than getting the next Blake Wesley, tbh.


We offset those bricklayers by removing them from rotation.

So your idea is to remove those bricklayers, only to draft more bricklayers and remove them somewhere down the line? :lol

[Mugen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfU8XHOXyPY

It's a high school mixtape so take with a giant grain of salt but his shot looks so much smoother here than at UCONN tbh. I don't know if he'll ever be a decent 3pt shooter but I think there's a hope for a Derozan like midrange J.

[DAF86]

I think the floor for Castle is a Marcus Smart type of player but I do think his shooting will improve and I do like the Jimmy Butler comp if he can put it all together. Just not sure there is that many other guys who have that type of upside.

I'm thinking Marcus Smart could be one of the best case scenarios. The floor is, without a doubt, being out of the league before his rookie contract runs out, tbh.

[exstatic]

The Venn Diagram of posters who are out on Topic and/or Castle (actual basketball players) because of their 3 ball and posters who are still enthused about the Thompson bricklaying twins who shot.138 and .186 when faced with actual NBA competition is a circle.

[DesignatedT]

Yeah, I don't see that at all. He's too good of a defender and has great intangibles. The shooting is a little shaky so I get the concern there especially since the Spurs can't shoot already but his form isn't broken and I believe he can improve his shot much like Leonard did.

[rankingtear]

I think they draft that Primo 2.0 kid before Castle. I don't see where the fit is.

[Knoxxx]

You mean he's going to be given wide open 3 PT shots? Sold!

San Antonio Spurs Interested in Drafting UConn Star (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/san-antonio-spurs-interested-in-drafting-uconn-star/ar-BB1nf3RL?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=57559f907d794d80890a15dceefc3d53&ei=9)

[Mr. Body]

Your post does bring out a couple philosophical points to consider:

1) Upside vs Floor- I'm most cases you want to err in the direction of choosing upside, but in a draft as poor as this one does that calculus change? Does upside have a lesser chance of 'hitting' than in other drafts to the point that taking the 'floor' just makes more sense?

2) Is this draft really as poor as we think? Or have we been overly influenced by media types telling is that it is?

I don't think this draft is as poor as advertised, to be honest. Last year, minus Wemby, might have been more questionable than advertised. Even if not, it got questionable pretty quickly after pick #5.

My philosophy is probably this: we have our super-duper-franchise-king. It's astounding how good he could become. Raising the floor around him is the goal. Get guys who won't make tons of mistakes, have good individual skill-sets, and could become serious long-term role-players or even more. I see a philosophy where a role-player like Risacher provides structure just by doing a role pretty well. Reason why I'm tagging Castle and Dillingham so much is one raises the floor (Castle) and the other provides star possibility while goosing the offense in a big way.

[Mr. Body]

I'm thinking Marcus Smart could be one of the best case scenarios. The floor is, without a doubt, being out of the league before his rookie contract runs out, tbh.

I would be stunned if Castle is out of the league after his rookie contract. He's just going to provide too much utility/defense to not constantly be picked up as a bench guy as a worst result. He's going to keep playing in this league for a while, imo, even if he's not a star.

[Eaglenole2002]

People need to stop talking about teams 5-7 not taking a point guard because those rosters are not static and we don’t know if they’re willing to simply take BPA in a so-called weaker draft. Who’s to say the Pistons won’t have a trade lined up to deal Ivey for a wing and like how Dilly pairs with Cunningham as a playmaking and shooting backcourt? That doesn’t even take into account many teams thinking 8 is the floor for Dillingham and could maneuver ahead of SA to grab him or whatever point guard.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I think the floor for Castle is a Marcus Smart type of player but I do think his shooting will improve and I do like the Jimmy Butler comp if he can put it all together. Just not sure there is that many other guys who have that type of upside.

The floor being the only guard DPOY since Gary Payton is setting expectations way too high for the poor fella.

[ginobilized]

The draft is always a risk, of course. I like Castle, a LOT.

I feel his dog qualities will propel him past other players year after year. That intangible is what makes a great player. There's enough to work with there between a Marcus Smart floor and a possible Butler/DeRozan ceiling. Just having that doggishness in practices will improve the team. I do wonder if he can handle playing with lower IQ players than he's used to at UCONN. That can make for a tough NBA transition. His NCAA squad was super high IQ and executed to perfection.
His cutting was elite within the UCONN system. If Tre Jones can get 1-2 layups/game off backdoor cuts, Castle can do more with Wemby. I can see him as a Vassell/JC backup to start and he might fight his way into the starting lineup. At the very least, he takes Wesley/Branham minutes and improves the team by being more efficient. He would force the issue on renewing those 2 players, too.

If the Spurs don't take him, I trust that they have a great reason to make that decision. If he's available and Risacher/Sarr are off the board, he's the most likely pick.

[exstatic]

People need to stop talking about teams 5-7 not taking a point guard because those rosters are not static and we don’t know if they’re willing to simply take BPA in a so-called weaker draft. Who’s to say the Pistons won’t have a trade lined up to deal Ivey for a wing and like how Dilly pairs with Cunningham as a playmaking and shooting backcourt? That doesn’t even take into account many teams thinking 8 is the floor for Dillingham and could maneuver ahead of SA to grab him or whatever point guard.

You also don’t know if those 3 teams will be making those 3 picks.

[Mr. Body]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft8ohWgyQGo

I know this has been posted before, but it's worth putting it here, too.

That possession at :47 is so fucking good. I assume he had direction to double at the start, but then how he handles everything else is next level. How he sees the open man instantly, sort of gravitates to him in his measured way, and then totally swallows him up, like double teaming him all by himself. Insta-boner for the coaching staff.

Wemby-Sochan-Castle could be the basis of one of the best defenses in the league. Which is crazy given that defense is nearly banned. Obviously there are struggles on the other end, but you can figure things out as you go. Sochan and Castle are both excellent cutters, and so on. But you have a strong 1-3 defender, a strong 2-4 defender, and WembGod.

[spurraider21]

Serious question for folks that really want Castle, what kind of player do you expect from him?

I want Risacher but because I expect a Nicolas Batum type player. I'm not really expecting an all-star type player. For Castle to be worth the pick, I think he would need to become a borderline all-star player (a Jrue Holiday type) and I just don't see it, tbh.
i think with castle you are hoping for something in between tony allen and andre iguodala, but less springy of an athlete than either

[Knoxxx]

The draft is always a risk, of course. I like Castle, a LOT.

I feel his dog qualities will propel him past other players year after year. That intangible is what makes a great player. There's enough to work with there between a Marcus Smart floor and a possible Butler/DeRozan ceiling. Just having that doggishness in practices will improve the team. I do wonder if he can handle playing with lower IQ players than he's used to at UCONN. That can make for a tough NBA transition. His NCAA squad was super high IQ and executed to perfection.
His cutting was elite within the UCONN system. If Tre Jones can get 1-2 layups/game off backdoor cuts, Castle can do more with Wemby. I can see him as a Vassell/JC backup to start and he might fight his way into the starting lineup. At the very least, he takes Wesley/Branham minutes and improves the team by being more efficient. He would force the issue on renewing those 2 players, too.

If the Spurs don't take him, I trust that they have a great reason to make that decision. If he's available and Risacher/Sarr are off the board, he's the most likely pick.

Castle has that man among boys look about him which is impressive for a college freshman. The knock on having him and Sochan, two nonshooters, is valid but they don't have to be on the floor together a lot at first. Obviously if the two developed a shot and with their defense, that would be amazing. Let's finish that thought by reminding that you choose either a shooter or defender this draft, not both. Unless of course you have two picks. Castle could make a non-defender like Knecht more pallatable at 8, for example.

Now if Castle and Sochan never develop a shot, it is probably FIFO for those of you familiar with accounting terms, there will be roster attrition.

[NASpurs]

What I like about Castle besides his defense is that yeah ok, he barely has any semblance of an outside shot so he drives to the basket a lot but it's not like he doesn't have an inside package. The dude can use his body, floaters, dunk, drop off a pass, you name it, etc. If he had an outside shot, he would be drafted #1.

[KobesAchilles]

We are taking Topic anyways

[Knoxxx]

https://youtu.be/Ft8ohWgyQGo?si=zzn2ZEcodE2N2hQF

[Knoxxx]

What I like about Castle besides his defense is that yeah ok, he barely has any semblance of an outside shot so he drives to the basket a lot but it's not like he doesn't have an inside package. The dude can use his body, floaters, dunk, drop off a pass, you name it, etc. If he had an outside shot, he would be drafted #1.

He's high BB IQ and he catches lob dunks and throws them. He can get to the rim, has handles, lots to like.

Mainly what i think about is getting defenders that can harass SGA and Doncic like no other, and he looks great for that too. Castle can guard the 1-3, Sochan the 2-4, Wemby, that's a lot of defense!

[Raven]

It makes no sense to draft a pg at 4

[LeBowen]

Dillingham's shooting is a lot more "translatable" than Castle's defense. There will always be open looks to be had in the NBA. Being able to defend on the NBA as well as you did in college is a bigger challenge than knocking down open shots.

A player of Dillingham's size has to be way more than just a spot up shooter. We need someone to collapse defenses, force them to make difficult decisions and get everyone involved.
You can't have a 160lbs player be just a spot up shooter. My biggest concern with him is if he'll be able to get to penetrate into the paint and finish at the rim.
He's more or less guaranteed to be an awful defender, meaning that if he's not a triple threat on offense from day1, he'll be a net negative.

Castle will surely be a positive defender. We really need those. I honestly wouldn't be opposet do drafting both of them. Their skillset complement each other well and we need a POA defender.


So you have a problem with 27% from NBA 3pt line on bigger volume, but no problem with 26% on wide ass open looks from the college 3pt line? :lol

No, I just have a problem with the fact that Buzelis has the potential to be everything, but he's not guaranteed to be anything. Entirety of his upside is theoretical. He's not guaranteed to be good at anything.


Better than getting the next Blake Wesley, tbh.

Agreed, but still. Castle is a way better prospect than Wesley.


So your idea is to remove those bricklayers, only to draft more bricklayers and remove them somewhere down the line? :lol

Draft bricklayers that can defend and maybe develop a shot. :lol

Right now Wemby is our entire defense.
Jeremy is solid when he doesn't have to chase guards around, Devin is neutral defender when he can be assed, others are trash.
Tre puts maximum effort in every possession, but always gets torched.

Tbh, my biggest concern for next season's rotation is Collins.
If he's still getting 20mpg, we're not going anywhere. He has to go.

[Chinook]

To put things into perspective, Castle is taller than Kawhi Leonard. He doesn't have Leonard's strength or length, but we're talking about a guy who can easily hold his own at SF once he matures. I think people shouldn't worry about his fit with Sochan. It'll either work, or one will be moved. If they're both good players who just can't work with each other, the odd man out will fetch a high trade price. If one develops and the other stagnates, you replace the other with a better shooter and keep it pushing. If both bust, you keep rolling that dice.

The Spurs are not trying to build a winning core this year. They have the time to figure these things out. If Castle is BPA, you pick him and let the chips fall where they may. You do not pass up on him because you're worried about him not working with Sochan or Tre. No one besides Wemby should be considered a lock to be on the roster in two years. If the Spurs were the best defense in the league next season but still a play-in team because their offense was horrible outside of Wemby and Vassell's individual talent, that's still a lot of progress.

[Chinook]

It makes no sense to draft a pg at 4

It makes a ton of sense to draft a guy who can defend Morant, Edwards, Doncic and all of the stars in between. Some team is going to draft Clingan in the top 10 specifically in hopes he can slow Wemby down. Castle stands to be more useful if the correct combination of skill improvements and role definition can occur.

[brrx89]

Castle announcing not working out with teams with a PG is basically publicly begging to be Wembys lob thrower

[Raven]

It makes a ton of sense to draft a guy who can defend Morant, Edwards, Doncic and all of the stars in between. Some team is going to draft Clingan in the top 10 specifically in hopes he can slow Wemby down. Castle stands to be more useful if the correct combination of skill improvements and role definition can occur.

What makes you think he can defend doncic? He doesn't have the necessary wingspan to contest him. And the assumption is that he obviously isn't the bpa at #4, he averaged 11 points and less than 3 assists.. While i love the pick in principle, I don't love it at #4 when nobody needs a point guard and there are at least 3 still available at #8.

[Raven]

Castle announcing not working out with teams with a PG is basically publicly begging to be Wembys lob thrower

people pretend like that's an easy job, but the massive difference in passing between irving and donut, should tell everyone that it is not.

[rjv]

the spurs need better defenders and more length but they also need shooters. this draft does not offer someone who can bring both of these things to the table so the spurs are going to have to make a choice. i, personally, would rather have someone who can defend and is long with the potential to improve his shot than a shooter who is barely 6'2" and not as good a defender. we all know that kawhi was a less than 30% shooter at san diego state.

[brrx89]

people pretend like that's an easy job, but the massive difference in passing between irving and donut, should tell everyone that it is not.

i agree, major red flag that a guy in a flat trash draft like this should be gassing himself up as 1st overall ready to come in and take Trae Youngs job, not dodging competition

[AFBlue]

People may consider it a "red flag" that he is so adamant about being considered a PG, but I honestly dig it. Dude has a level of self-confidence and the reported work ethic to help realize what his potential may be.

[LeBowen]

People may consider it a "red flag" that he is so adamant about being considered a PG, but I honestly dig it. Dude has a level of self-confidence and the reported work ethic to help realize what his potential may be.

His camp has to push the point guard narrative since he can't shoot.
Thompson twins were way better prospects and have been really underwhelming just because they don't have a shot, despite doing everything else well.

Risacher is out of reach, other wing prospects aren't that convincing.
I'd be fine with Castle and Dillingham, would give us complementary players with clear roles.

Tre/Dillingham and Jeremy/Castle as players who can't share the floor.
Devin as the best perimeter player can fit in any lineup, then a couple more 3-D guys with Champagnie being the last man in SG-SF-PF rotation.
Or just one more 3-D guy if Keldon isn't traded.

But we must get rid of Collins.

[Knoxxx]

What makes you think he can defend doncic? He doesn't have the necessary wingspan to contest him. And the assumption is that he obviously isn't the bpa at #4, he averaged 11 points and less than 3 assists.. While i love the pick in principle, I don't love it at #4 when nobody needs a point guard and there are at least 3 still available at #8.

He can possibly guard SGA, Doncic, Fox on the Kings, any smaller G up to a SF. Do you know what the 1-3 position is in basketball? Sochan can guard the 2, but that's not his specialty.

As far as your take on alternative PG prospects, way off. All the other PG prospects have their share of warts such as lack of size, defense, shooting, injuries, etc.

If Castle went 3, Sheppard would be fine at 4 though. Then we'd have some nice wing options, leaning to the defensive side, at 8.

[Knoxxx]

People may consider it a "red flag" that he is so adamant about being considered a PG, but I honestly dig it. Dude has a level of self-confidence and the reported work ethic to help realize what his potential may be.

Castle has a 5-star "Alpha" mentality, and young players have trouble maintaining that kind of confidence coming into the NBA.

[Mr. Body]

What makes you think he can defend doncic? He doesn't have the necessary wingspan to contest him. And the assumption is that he obviously isn't the bpa at #4, he averaged 11 points and less than 3 assists.. While i love the pick in principle, I don't love it at #4 when nobody needs a point guard and there are at least 3 still available at #8.

I'm curious about Castle guarding Doncic. To me, Sochan guards Doncic and Irving is guarded by Castle. I think Doncic is too big for Castle, but he does have the snakey ability to keep up with guys with the ball in their hands or stay close on jump shots. Luka's advantage other than supernatural IQ and handles, is his strength. I don't think Castle can do it full time.

[Mr. Body]

This just got me thinking about whether Dallas winning the chip might have teams shifting priorities and strategies. Like, Minny sort of built themselves to beat Denver, are teams going to try to build to counter Dallas? Maybe? But I think the Spurs know what they need and won't alter course. It may be hubristic to say, but if they build right, teams will have to counter them. If they can get a good team around Wembanyama (defense, offense, etc.) they'll be calling the shots.

That said, this might require/include defending Doncic.

[Chinook]

What makes you think he can defend doncic? He doesn't have the necessary wingspan to contest him. And the assumption is that he obviously isn't the bpa at #4, he averaged 11 points and less than 3 assists.. While i love the pick in principle, I don't love it at #4 when nobody needs a point guard and there are at least 3 still available at #8.

Is there a formula on how to defend Doncic? If so, it must be secret from every NBA team so far. As far as I can tell, the only plan with Doncic is to not foul and to stay with him. That's staying in front of his when he has the ball and staying connected to him when he doesn't. Shutting a guy down is extremely rare and has been for more than a decade. Bowen basically never did it. The Medium Three Spurs only did it rarely. What the Spurs can do is kill possessions by denying Doncic the ball and letting Irving go at Sochan and the rest of the team. Castle's ability to both navigate screens and absorb contact is rare. Of course, you'd want to buy into his offensive game working if you take him at 4. But I wouldn't say he has worse potential there than Smart did, and he was also taken in the top five.

[LeBowen]

This just got me thinking about whether Dallas winning the chip might have teams shifting priorities and strategies. Like, Minny sort of built themselves to beat Denver, are teams going to try to build to counter Dallas? Maybe? But I think the Spurs know what they need and won't alter course. It may be hubristic to say, but if they build right, teams will have to counter them. If they can get a good team around Wembanyama (defense, offense, etc.) they'll be calling the shots.

That said, this might require/include defending Doncic.

I guess we'll see how things go in the finals matchup.
On paper, Celtics are a perfect counter to Kyrie and Luka. Two elite defenders for each of them.

In three years Wemby will surely be the best player in the league and then it will be on everyone else to adapt.

[DAF86]

Nope (https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=stephon-castle--anthony-black)

I like Anthony Black,and am one of his few supporters here, but the link above shows a similar physical profile, and the green dots are split about evenly.

Irrelevant.

If I were to show those samd metrics but with Dillingham or Sheppard compared to Castle, the Kentucky guyd would blow Castle away, yet most here prefer Stephon.

[DAF86]

i think with castle you are hoping for something in between tony allen and andre iguodala, but less springy of an athlete than either

Would much rather have a Nicolas Batum, tbh.

[exstatic]

His camp has to push the point guard narrative since he can't shoot.
Thompson twins were way better prospects and have been really underwhelming just because they don't have a shot, despite doing everything else well.

Risacher is out of reach, other wing prospects aren't that convincing.
I'd be fine with Castle and Dillingham, would give us complementary players with clear roles.

Tre/Dillingham and Jeremy/Castle as players who can't share the floor.
Devin as the best perimeter player can fit in any lineup, then a couple more 3-D guys with Champagnie being the last man in SG-SF-PF rotation.
Or just one more 3-D guy if Keldon isn't traded.

But we must get rid of Collins.

:lol. Thompson’s were better ATHLETES, not better prospects. They played in a trash nothing league, while Castle took a master’s level course at UConn.

[exstatic]

Irrelevant.

If I were to show those samd metrics but with Dillingham or Sheppard compared to Castle, the Kentucky guyd would blow Castle away, yet most here prefer Stephon.

Yeah, but then the anthro is no contest, with Castle overwhelming him. You compared him to Black because they are a similar physical type, but when your statement about Black being a clear better prospect got steamrolled, you tried the old goalpost move.

[LeBowen]

:lol. Thompson’s were better ATHLETES, not better prospects. They played in a trash nothing league, while Castle took a master’s level course at UConn.

They were way more hyped than Castle and would be in serious consideration for #1 pick this year.
Some people even tried to push the agenda that Amen should go #2, behind Wemby.

[exstatic]

They were way more hyped than Castle and would be in serious consideration for #1 pick this year.
Some people even tried to push the agenda that Amen should go #2, behind Wemby.

I don’t care about hype at all. That’s driven by shoe companies and agents.

[HankChinaski]

I like Castle's upside. His current floor would still provide an improvement. His shooting is a concern. If they pick Castle, have to be curious what if any moves they make with the current roster to create spacing on the floor.

[Spurs Homer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft8ohWgyQGo

I know this has been posted before, but it's worth putting it here, too.

That possession at :47 is so fucking good. I assume he had direction to double at the start, but then how he handles everything else is next level. How he sees the open man instantly, sort of gravitates to him in his measured way, and then totally swallows him up, like double teaming him all by himself. Insta-boner for the coaching staff.

Wemby-Sochan-Castle could be the basis of one of the best defenses in the league. Which is crazy given that defense is nearly banned. Obviously there are struggles on the other end, but you can figure things out as you go. Sochan and Castle are both excellent cutters, and so on. But you have a strong 1-3 defender, a strong 2-4 defender, and WembGod.



just fuckin awesome…

wemby will be wide fuckin open near the basket just begging for a lob

sochan will refuse to make the lob and pass to a double-teamed castle

castle will brick the shot

just fuckin great!

[Payote75]

I know I might be in the minority but I'm sick of "upside" by the time castle learns to shoot we will have waster at least two seasons we need a 3 point shooter and a facilitator if we can acquire one that does both then I'm ok with upside but Wemby needs a legitimate point guard that can score sochan and castle in lineup and we may not score over 60 and 30 of those will be Wemby we will shorten his career. I'd rather take a chance on edey then who at least can take physical burden of Wemby at the very least while we wait for "upside" with any luck edey has some offensive skills that translate but more wings and guards that can't score is a recipe to shorten Wembys career or leave like Duncan almost did and kawitter actually did. I don't want to burn our options and treasure chest but we do have enough to accomplish both in my opinion.

[AFBlue]

I know I might be in the minority but I'm sick of "upside" by the time castle learns to shoot we will have waster at least two seasons we need a 3 point shooter and a facilitator if we can acquire one that does both then I'm ok with upside but Wemby needs a legitimate point guard that can score sochan and castle in lineup and we may not score over 60 and 30 of those will be Wemby we will shorten his career. I'd rather take a chance on edey then who at least can take physical burden of Wemby at the very least while we wait for "upside" with any luck edey has some offensive skills that translate but more wings and guards that can't score is a recipe to shorten Wembys career or leave like Duncan almost did and kawitter actually did. I don't want to burn our options and treasure chest but we do have enough to accomplish both in my opinion.

You ain't finding a ready-made point guard through the draft. Even Dillingham, who has lead guard credentials, is a question mark defensively and isn't close to developing an NBA body Both of which will limit his ability to stay on the floor.

You draft for upside in any case.

[TrainOfThought5]

I know I might be in the minority but I'm sick of "upside" by the time castle learns to shoot we will have waster at least two seasons we need a 3 point shooter and a facilitator if we can acquire one that does both then I'm ok with upside but Wemby needs a legitimate point guard that can score sochan and castle in lineup and we may not score over 60 and 30 of those will be Wemby we will shorten his career. I'd rather take a chance on edey then who at least can take physical burden of Wemby at the very least while we wait for "upside" with any luck edey has some offensive skills that translate but more wings and guards that can't score is a recipe to shorten Wembys career or leave like Duncan almost did and kawitter actually did. I don't want to burn our options and treasure chest but we do have enough to accomplish both in my opinion.

so who do you want to draft? Dillingham? Sheppard? Trade up for Risacher?

[Pauleta14]

so who do you want to draft? Dillingham? Sheppard? Trade up for Risacher?

Use both picks in a trade for an elite player, whoever is availaible / whatever team willing to trade. PG, SG, Wing whatever BPA in a trade.

25' and 26' are the years to puck players to dev

[TD 21]

Exactly. :lol

I would be fine with Castle if he would have shown any kind of sign of being able to develop his shot, but he didn't. He might be like Sochan and shoot a respectable % on low volume someday, but that won't be enough.


It is very unlikely that he ever develops his 3pt shot to that extent. Even if he did, Castle doesn't the handles, nor the pull-up game to become an all-star type player. He basically would need to improve his entire offensive repertoire.

I've tried; they don't get it. This is Sochan redux, just a guard version.

If everything checks out with his back, they could just pursue Melton in free agency to fill this role.


It makes a ton of sense to draft a guy who can defend Morant, Edwards, Doncic and all of the stars in between. Some team is going to draft Clingan in the top 10 specifically in hopes he can slow Wemby down. Castle stands to be more useful if the correct combination of skill improvements and role definition can occur.

He doesn't have the strength to defend Doncic. Of course you need someone with the physical tools to at least hold their own, but with a "target" ball extraordinaire practitioner, it's more important that you don't have a small guard or immobile big (unless either is a superstar/star offensively) for him to generate a switch on.

Clingan is the antithesis of a Wembanyama defender. Big, mobile wings/forwards are (at least until he proves he can exploit them on the block), with the rim protector lurking as the weakside defender, are the current modus operandi.

[Payote75]

No agreed 1000 percent that's why I use those assets to get a garland love him or hate him he can score pass and shoot then you can figure out what you want to give up etc. If the price is what clan and others are reporting than it's not that bad at all.

[Mr. Body]

No agreed 1000 percent that's why I use those assets to get a garland love him or hate him he can score pass and shoot then you can figure out what you want to give up etc. If the price is what clan and others are reporting than it's not that bad at all.

Nah man, just draft Dillingham. Chances are good Dillingham is straight up better. If not, you didn't break the bank.

[Payote75]

Depends on package. The dopey media clan etc. Saying Chicago pick Charlotte fake pick Johnson branham. Maybe 8th pick.
I'd try not to give 8th pick that said people hate on Keldon and I get it but Keldon still averaging points not 10 he still young as is malaki and home grown id figure out from that pot how to make a garland trade work.

[The Truth #6]

I like Castle's attitude. That's the most Butler part possibly. He seems intense and determined. Hopefully he just wants to play with VW and it's cool if that's the case. Now, if SF is his actual calling, how well he adjusts could be the problem. And, he might chafe at some of our soft players but hey, I'm open to a change in identity. If he can do that, that's still a win. Dillingham I like generally, but his demeanor might not be intense enough. Hard to say.

[exstatic]

I know I might be in the minority but I'm sick of "upside" by the time castle learns to shoot we will have waster at least two seasons we need a 3 point shooter and a facilitator if we can acquire one that does both then I'm ok with upside but Wemby needs a legitimate point guard that can score sochan and castle in lineup and we may not score over 60 and 30 of those will be Wemby we will shorten his career. I'd rather take a chance on edey then who at least can take physical burden of Wemby at the very least while we wait for "upside" with any luck edey has some offensive skills that translate but more wings and guards that can't score is a recipe to shorten Wembys career or leave like Duncan almost did and kawitter actually did. I don't want to burn our options and treasure chest but we do have enough to accomplish both in my opinion.

Have you even followed the draft for the last 20 years? Barring a LeBron AD Zion Wemby type, EVERYONE is drafted on upside. EVERYONE. That’s why the first round is almost purely 18 and 19 year olds. That’s also the only place a small market team can grab a superstar.

[Mr. Body]

I know I might be in the minority but I'm sick of "upside" by the time castle learns to shoot we will have waster at least two seasons we need a 3 point shooter and a facilitator if we can acquire one that does both then I'm ok with upside but Wemby needs a legitimate point guard that can score sochan and castle in lineup and we may not score over 60 and 30 of those will be Wemby we will shorten his career. I'd rather take a chance on edey then who at least can take physical burden of Wemby at the very least while we wait for "upside" with any luck edey has some offensive skills that translate but more wings and guards that can't score is a recipe to shorten Wembys career or leave like Duncan almost did and kawitter actually did. I don't want to burn our options and treasure chest but we do have enough to accomplish both in my opinion.

We really should draft Michael Jordan and I don't get why we won't.

[Payote75]

But why? What if it takes him 2-3 years to develop then get stiff experience and you still have to keep other parts of team together and could be adding with more picks. It's ok to use a little of the treasure chest next year's draft will be really good

[exstatic]

Use both picks in a trade for an elite player, whoever is availaible / whatever team willing to trade. PG, SG, Wing whatever BPA in a trade.

25' and 26' are the years to puck players to dev

Elite players rarely come onto the open market, trade or FA. When they’re traded, they pick the team. Even if one came on the market, 4&8 in this draft ain’t getting that done.

[Payote75]

We have Wemby we are lucky enough so luck only lasts so long. We can wait until we draft another Duncan and Wemby will be 30.

[Mr. Body]

But why? What if it takes him 2-3 years to develop then get stiff experience and you still have to keep other parts of team together and could be adding with more picks. It's ok to use a little of the treasure chest next year's draft will be really good

You're right, we should trade for Jokic.

[BatManu20]

just fuckin awesome…

wemby will be wide fuckin open near the basket just begging for a lob

sochan will refuse to make the lob and pass to a double-teamed castle

castle will brick the shot

just fuckin great!

You're right. We should just draft Dalton Knecht at 4 and call it a day.

[Knoxxx]

For the PG prospects:

1 Castle
2 Sheppard
3 Dilly
4 Topic
5 Booker
6 Carter

And i know some of you sneaky buggers have some targets at 35, 48, or somewhere later in the first round with a trade down, etc.

Salary cap management is going to be an issue. Best to bring in several rookies a year and keep turning them over until we get it right. Play lots of players, diliute their stats so they don't become too expensive to keep. You are welcome for crystallizing the master plan that was so obvious you could almost see it.

[Knoxxx]

You're right. We should just draft Dalton Knecht at 4 and call it a day.

Shaddup he's a statue on defense!

[Knoxxx]

Elite players rarely come onto the open market, trade or FA. When they’re traded, they pick the team. Even if one came on the market, 4&8 in this draft ain’t getting that done.

People are giving at least 3 FRPs and their first born for a decent player who makes $45 million a year while averaging 15 PPG. These fools want to trade nothing for someone and keep all our picks too!

[Mr. Body]

I just want to say Knecht means knight in German. So with Castle we could have some medieval thing going.

[Chinook]

I just want to say Knecht means knight in German. So with Castle we could have some medieval thing going.

Well given that they're a couple of rooks, I figured it was more of a chess thing.

[SpursBills]

Serious question for folks that really want Castle, what kind of player do you expect from him?

I want Risacher but because I expect a Nicolas Batum type player. I'm not really expecting an all-star type player. For Castle to be worth the pick, I think he would need to become a borderline all-star player (a Jrue Holiday type) and I just don't see it, tbh.

Some hybrid between Jalen Suggs and Marcus Smart as his 75 percentile outcome. I think he's not very high in stat based models because of mainly his shooting efficiency obviously, but also his low steal rate. But Hurley's defenses depress steal rates big time, Castle averaged 3 ST and 2 BL per game as a high school senior so it's not like he can't generate defensive events. Normalize his ST% this year against by comparing Cam spencer's STL% last year at Rutgers vs this year and he ends up with almost a 3 STL%, which is way more palatable. Also UConn's defense with Castle and without Clingan was about the same as its defense with Clingan without Castle, so it's not like he's just riding Clingan's coattails on defense. Plus the guy's built like he's going to be SGA kryptonite so he's got that going for him.

Dude knows how to play, he's got better bball IQ than most freshmen and he's a good decision maker, which gives him a way higher floor than most non-shooting prospects. I like him less than Wallace from last year but more than Black, mostly because of his off-ball ability; I think he'd be able to fit into a Wemby motion offense better than Black. If you're going to take a bet on a non-shooting prospect, it's this guy who's a lot less raw in every other aspect of the game.

[Payote75]

Correct and no need to talk down simply having a spurs conversation....and I'm talking about time and striking while iron is hot and getting hotter players are starting to want to join up. Everyone knows upside but it's time we are fighting why would I want to even waste one season with Wemby. Get him some players and some playoff experience.

[heyheymymy]

Castle is my pick at #4 barring Risacher or maybe Sarr.

Cool thing with Castle is Spurs fans talk about taking a SF and a PG but with Castle being wing ish size while also saying he wants to play PG you can take him at #4 and then take whomever you want with #8 because wing or guard Castle flexes both so either way you got your PG & SF in a sense lol

[Payote75]

Yea that's exactly what I was thinking amazing let's all just agree with your take

[BatManu20]

Shaddup he's a statue on defense!

Was being sarcastic...

[Knoxxx]

Castle is my pick at #4 barring Risacher or maybe Sarr.

Cool thing with Castle is Spurs fans talk about taking a SF and a PG but with Castle being wing ish size while also saying he wants to play PG you can take him at #4 and then take whomever you want with #8 because wing or guard Castle flexes both so either way you got your PG & SF in a sense lol

Genius! i never thought about considering pick 8 in relation to pick 4.

[Raven]

He can possibly guard SGA, Doncic, Fox on the Kings, any smaller G up to a SF. Do you know what the 1-3 position is in basketball? Sochan can guard the 2, but that's not his specialty.

As far as your take on alternative PG prospects, way off. All the other PG prospects have their share of warts such as lack of size, defense, shooting, injuries, etc.

If Castle went 3, Sheppard would be fine at 4 though. Then we'd have some nice wing options, leaning to the defensive side, at 8.

yes, doncic is far longer, he's not going to defend him.

[Raven]

I guess we'll see how things go in the finals matchup.
On paper, Celtics are a perfect counter to Kyrie and Luka. Two elite defenders for each of them.

In three years Wemby will surely be the best player in the league and then it will be on everyone else to adapt.

?

[Knoxxx]

yes, doncic is far longer, he's not going to defend him.

And who, pray tell, can guard the donkey at all then?!

I think the strategy is throw competent fresh defenders on him all game, so that when the time comes to hit a clutch shot he's running out of gas. Make more sense? I haven't seen the perfect defender for him, that's why he averages 34-9-9. Maybe we can try putting Wemby on him. I dare him try to guard Wemby in the post the same way he was punking Gobert, OMG.

[LeBowen]

?

Jrue and Derrick for Kyrie.
Brown and Tatum for Luka.
I guess Tatum is weakest of the four, but still a very good defender.

[Raven]

And who, pray tell, can guard the donkey at all then?!

I think the strategy is throw competent fresh defenders on him all game, so that when the time comes to hit a clutch shot he's running out of gas. Make more sense? I haven't seen the perfect defender for him, that's why he averages 34-9-9. Maybe we can try putting Wemby on him. I dare him try to guard Wemby in the post the same way he was punking Gobert, OMG.

antetokumpo, kawhi... guys like that. You need a really long armed, athletic sf that doesn't make stupid fouls. That's the blueprint.

[Raven]

Jrue and Derrick for Kyrie.
Brown and Tatum for Luka.
I guess Tatum is weakest of the four, but still a very good defender.

tatum has been getting scorched all playoffs and he has no chance to defend donut. Donut is going to feast 42 per game without problem.. only chance is porzingis coming from the weak side to make donut pass, but quite farfetched. They are prepared for irving, that i agree.

[Raven]

Is there a formula on how to defend Doncic? If so, it must be secret from every NBA team so far. As far as I can tell, the only plan with Doncic is to not foul and to stay with him. That's staying in front of his when he has the ball and staying connected to him when he doesn't. Shutting a guy down is extremely rare and has been for more than a decade. Bowen basically never did it. The Medium Three Spurs only did it rarely. What the Spurs can do is kill possessions by denying Doncic the ball and letting Irving go at Sochan and the rest of the team. Castle's ability to both navigate screens and absorb contact is rare. Of course, you'd want to buy into his offensive game working if you take him at 4. But I wouldn't say he has worse potential there than Smart did, and he was also taken in the top five.

even dillingam can make donut pass the ball if it's on a double.. perhaps only marco belinelli wouldn't make him pass, he just does it automatically... That's not saying much imo.

[TD 21]

Some hybrid between Jalen Suggs and Marcus Smart as his 75 percentile outcome. I think he's not very high in stat based models because of mainly his shooting efficiency obviously, but also his low steal rate. But Hurley's defenses depress steal rates big time, Castle averaged 3 ST and 2 BL per game as a high school senior so it's not like he can't generate defensive events. Normalize his ST% this year against by comparing Cam spencer's STL% last year at Rutgers vs this year and he ends up with almost a 3 STL%, which is way more palatable. Also UConn's defense with Castle and without Clingan was about the same as its defense with Clingan without Castle, so it's not like he's just riding Clingan's coattails on defense. Plus the guy's built like he's going to be SGA kryptonite so he's got that going for him.

Dude knows how to play, he's got better bball IQ than most freshmen and he's a good decision maker, which gives him a way higher floor than most non-shooting prospects. I like him less than Wallace from last year but more than Black, mostly because of his off-ball ability; I think he'd be able to fit into a Wemby motion offense better than Black. If you're going to take a bet on a non-shooting prospect, it's this guy who's a lot less raw in every other aspect of the game.

Despite not being your cup of tea, I respect your knowledge, but I've heard this spiel so many times about this archetype. They're almost always described in similar fashion and almost always bust.

Even most of the ones who succeed don't do so as lead guards and become bit players in the playoffs (Daniels looks to be this in the making).

For every Smart, Suggs and (Amen) Thompson (all better prospects, the former a better play maker, the latter two way more athletic), there's Winslow (even though he was listed as a forward), Exum, Ntilikina, Culver, Daniels, Black (too soon) and to a lesser extent (more true PG's) Payton, Mudiay, Dunn, Hayes.

[rascal]

Spurs are going to need to add some backcourt defense, a player with good size and enough strenght and athleticism, Castle fills that need on the roster in this draft.

What are you going to do, add a couple of undersized shooters in this weak draft , neglect the defensive side of the game and draft a defensive player next year while leaving all star offensive players much better than what you'll get this year on the board.

Next year the Spurs can target high upside offensive players wih all star potential who will be much better than anyone in this year's draft on the offensive side.

Fill the defensive need this year and round out the roster in next year's draft with higher upside players.

[DAF86]

Yeah, but then the anthro is no contest, with Castle overwhelming him. You compared him to Black because they are a similar physical type, but when your statement about Black being a clear better prospect got steamrolled, you tried the old goalpost move.

No, my comment was about Black being way more hyped as a prospect than Castle, which is undeniable true. Had a much bigger role, scored more pts, had more assists, more blocks, more steals, more rebounds, was more efficient, and just overall was seen as a better player

[Pauleta14]

Elite players rarely come onto the open market, trade or FA. When they’re traded, they pick the team. Even if one came on the market, 4&8 in this draft ain’t getting that done.

- Spurs are attractive again

- I meant 4&8 PLUS players

I'd add a financial aspect considering the garanteed HIGH salaries of both picks for 3 years.

Considering the value of 25' and 26' I think it's worth passing on this one to focus on the team's lack of experience and low BBIQ that draft can't fix.

We'll see but it'd make a lot of sense to me.

[DAF86]

I like Castle's upside. His current floor would still provide an improvement. His shooting is a concern. If they pick Castle, have to be curious what if any moves they make with the current roster to create spacing on the floor.

His current floor isn't an improvement over anyone, tbh.

[rascal]

His current floor isn't an improvement over anyone, tbh.

Forget about it DAF.

Spurs are drafting Castle or Topic at 4.

[SpursBills]

Despite not being your cup of tea, I respect your knowledge, but I've heard this spiel so many times about this archetype. They're almost always described in similar fashion and almost always bust.

Even most of the ones who succeed don't do so as lead guards and become bit players in the playoffs (Daniels looks to be this in the making).

For every Smart, Suggs and (Amen) Thompson (all better prospects, the former a better play maker, the latter two way more athletic), there's Winslow (even though he was listed as a forward), Exum, Ntilikina, Culver, Daniels, Black (too soon) and to a lesser extent (more true PG's) Payton, Mudiay, Dunn, Hayes.

I can't argue with any of those examples, it's definitely a valid point, and I've accepted possibly being Charlie brown again this year as lucy pulls the football with this viewpoint as it pertains to Castle. That said, it might be too early to judge both Black and Daniels, especially their impact with incremental improvements to their shooting over the next 4-5 years if they get to say .360 on 5 attempts per game as opposed to .320 on 2 attempts per game. I also think I'd be less likely to swing if I didn't know that we had a significant amount of draft capital coming in over the next few years.

[spurraider21]

Well given that they're a couple of rooks, I figured it was more of a chess thing.
Plus at center we have the French defense

[Uriel]

Castle seems to be moving up many big boards and has reached as high as #2 (The Athletic) or #3 (The Ringer, CBS, Yahoo Sports).

[AFBlue]

Castle seems to be moving up many big boards and has reached as high as #2 (The Athletic) or #3 (The Ringer, CBS, Yahoo Sports).

The Rockets aren't a fit. If the Wizards take Castle at 2, then either Sarr or Risacher are available.

[objective]

Don't know if I can take the Spurs having 2 players with shogun topknot ponytails

[BatManu20]

The Rockets aren't a fit. If the Wizards take Castle at 2, then either Sarr or Risacher are available.

Is Castle went 2, Rockets would take Risacher 3 and the Spurs would be left holding their dicks. Let’s hope this doesn’t happen tbh.

[Knoxxx]

Is Castle went 2, Rockets would take Risacher 3 and the Spurs would be left holding their dicks. Let’s hope this doesn’t happen tbh.

Most would say Sheppard is a fine pick at 4 and have been hoping he didn’t go at the 3 to HOU.

Edit: at least the math skills being displayed over here are slightly better than on the Dilly thread where 1 + 1 + 1 = 4 apparently.

[onechance87]

I like castle,But feel like we need a more faster pg who moves the pace and breaks the defense down and gets
easy shots for his teammates.Think thats what topic and dilly do imo,Can read the defence and push the ball
make plays to get shots for themselves or teammates.Castle plays smart and safe basketball,Dont know if has
another level to be aggressive and dominate.

[SpursBills]

Most would say Sheppard is a fine pick at 4 and have been hoping he didn’t go at the 3 to HOU.

Edit: at least the math skills being displayed over here are slightly better than on the Dilly thread where 1 + 1 + 1 = 4 apparently.

Judging by the reactions I've seen on this board, the only semi-likely pick at 4 that would truly trigger a meltdown here would be if the spurs took Topic at 4

[rankingtear]

I think if he did not go to UCONN and just bought in to play the connector wing role, he is a similar prospect to Jalen Hood Schifino. Two-way guard , high IQ with some star upside because of the size and strenght. His unselfishness changed his trajectory up until the combine when he demanded what looks like a starting PG spot.

[TD 21]

Three final points . . .

1. I don't put much stock in the "I'm a PG" comment. Nobody is handing him "the keys" in terms of running volume p-n-r. What I could see is them trading for Brogdon, starting them together and having every starter have some level of agency in terms of offensive initiation, while increasing their switch ability.

2. The "pick him if you deem him BPA and don't worry about fit with Sochan and/or Jones" notion sounds great in theory. In reality, with their aversion to movement (don't be fooled by them disassembling the last core; that was to add beaucoup picks and the best odds at Wembanyama) and obsession with continuity, at least the former stands a good chance of being entrenched.

3. "Almost anyone at 4 will be a questionable shooter", ignores that Sheppard might be available, they have the goods to trade up for Risacher and there's always the trading one of the picks in a package for a starter option.

[BatManu20]

Risacher ain’t worth trading both 4 + 8 for, and he sure as hell ain’t worth trading 4 + one of ATL’s Unprotected picks for. He’s going to be a Wizard.

[TD 21]

^ I don't recall saying it had to be either iteration you proposed or that it even had to happen (we know it won't) period.

The point is, they have options and don't have to settle for some non shooter.

[DAF86]

If both, Castle and Sheppard are available, I'm taking Sheppard without thinking twice.

To me both have about the same celing, with Sheppard having the much higher floor and being able to contribute right away. Sheppard's shooting is gonna be way more valuable than Castle's defense, and Sheppard's playmaking on defense will help him be less of a liability on that side of the floor, than Castle on offense with his lack of shooting.

If the Rockets draft Sheppard, then I would rather go with Buzelis over Castle at #4, before the Pistons take him at 5, and draft a guard at #8, which will no doubt have 2 or 3 interesting options (Dillingham, Topic or even Castle himself).

[exstatic]

No, my comment was about Black being way more hyped as a prospect than Castle, which is undeniable true. Had a much bigger role, scored more pts, had more assists, more blocks, more steals, more rebounds, was more efficient, and just overall was seen as a better player

Black wasn’t even a FRP at the beginning of his season.

[Eaglenole2002]

If both, Castle and Sheppard are available, I'm taking Sheppard without thinking twice.

To me both have about the same celing, with Sheppard having the much higher floor and being able to contribute right away. Sheppard's shooting is gonna be way more valuable than Castle's defense, and Sheppard's playmaking on defense will help him be less of a liability on that side of the floor, than Castle on offense with his lack of shooting.

If the Rockets draft Sheppard, then I would rather go with Buzelis over Castle at #4, before the Pistons take him at 5, and draft a guard at #8, which will no doubt have 2 or 3 interesting options (Dillingham, Topic or even Castle himself).

How do you think Reed’s game compares to Podziemski’s?

[rascal]

I like castle,But feel like we need a more faster pg who moves the pace and breaks the defense down and gets
easy shots for his teammates.Think thats what topic and dilly do imo,Can read the defence and push the ball
make plays to get shots for themselves or teammates.Castle plays smart and safe basketball,Dont know if has
another level to be aggressive and dominate.

Castle doesn't have to be the primary pg. He can spend time at both the 1 and 2 and the Spurs can still add a primary pg who gets more minutes at pg than Castle. Castle's roster flexibility will be attractive for the Spurs.

[dbestpro]

Castle doesn't have to be the primary pg. He can spend time at both the 1 and 2 and the Spurs can still add a primary pg who gets more minutes at pg than Castle. Castle's roster flexibility will be attractive for the Spurs.
If you are getting Castle to be a 2 then it is a bad pick at 4.

[rascal]

If you are getting Castle to be a 2 then it is a bad pick at 4.

Castle will be sharing time at 1 and 2. Spurs like the versatility, not a bad pick.

[Mugen]

Is Castle went 2, Rockets would take Risacher 3 and the Spurs would be left holding their dicks. Let’s hope this doesn’t happen tbh.

I'd be fine with Sheppard at #4 tbh.

[DAF86]

Black wasn’t even a FRP at the beginning of his season.

So? I'm talking about when the draft took place. :lol

[DAF86]

How do you think Reed’s game compares to Podziemski’s?

I think Sheppard will prove to be a better player. Sheppard is elite at the most important skill you can have in today's NBA. In top of that, he's good in many other areas. There's almost no chance he doesn't become, at least, a solid rotation piece.

[ChumpDumper]

Judging by the reactions I've seen on this board, the only semi-likely pick at 4 that would truly trigger a meltdown here would be if the spurs took Topic at 4This draft is so flat and the picks so divisive, there will be a meltdown no matter whom gets picked.

[mo7888]

This draft is so flat and the picks so divisive, there will be a meltdown no matter whom gets picked.

I agree with this... I've got Sheppard and Castle 4 and 5 on my board, but I'm not so high on anybody that I'm going to get frustrated no matter which way we go. Even if we go topic I won't be upset because this thing is so flat from 3 or 4-10 or 11...

[rjv]

This draft is so flat and the picks so divisive, there will be a meltdown no matter whom gets picked.

this is the one draft prediction that is 100% going to happen.

[Mr. Body]

this is the one draft prediction that is 100% going to happen.

Lol and yet me trying to put a positive spin on the Primo pick is still brought up by the cellar dwellars.

[LeBowen]

I agree with this... I've got Sheppard and Castle 4 and 5 on my board, but I'm not so high on anybody that I'm going to get frustrated no matter which way we go. Even if we go topic I won't be upset because this thing is so flat from 3 or 4-10 or 11...

I'd be upset with Topic or Dillingham at #4 because Hornets, Pistons and Blazers won't pick them. They have their star guards and don't need another guard that can't defend.
If they're available at #8, fine.

I also don't want Sheppard at #4 because we desperately need a guard that's going to collapse defenses and actually run the team.
Sheppard and Devin would mean more point Sochan unless we find an actual point forward.

Get Castle or the best forward at #4 because three of those will be gone by #8.

[mo7888]

I'd be upset with Topic or Dillingham at #4 because Hornets, Pistons and Blazers won't pick them. They have their star guards and don't need another guard that can't defend.
If they're available at #8, fine.

I also don't want Sheppard at #4 because we desperately need a guard that's going to collapse defenses and actually run the team.
Sheppard and Devin would mean more point Sochan unless we find an actual point forward.

Get Castle or the best forward at #4 because three of those will be gone by #8.

I don't want topic at 4 or 8 or Dilly at 4... Sheppard I'd be fine with. However, I'm not as invested in specific players after my top 3 because this thing is so flat. Topic could very well be the top player in this draft if his health works out, even though I have him outside the top 10 on my Spurs board. That's how flat this thing is between 4-11...

[exstatic]

This draft is so flat and the picks so divisive, there will be a meltdown no matter whom gets picked.

I think last years draft was the first time in a while that there wasn’t a significant subsection that hated the pick. What you described is pretty much every year.

[baseline bum]

the spurs need better defenders and more length but they also need shooters. this draft does not offer someone who can bring both of these things to the table so the spurs are going to have to make a choice. i, personally, would rather have someone who can defend and is long with the potential to improve his shot than a shooter who is barely 6'2" and not as good a defender. we all know that kawhi was a less than 30% shooter at san diego state.

Problem is the Spurs don't have Chip anymore and you gotta wonder if Kawhi would have been another MKG without Chip given how terrible his jumpshot was (e.g. going behind his head and chunking it forward)

[exstatic]

I'd be upset with Topic or Dillingham at #4 because Hornets, Pistons and Blazers won't pick them. They have their star guards and don't need another guard that can't defend.
If they're available at #8, fine.

I also don't want Sheppard at #4 because we desperately need a guard that's going to collapse defenses and actually run the team.
Sheppard and Devin would mean more point Sochan unless we find an actual point forward.

Get Castle or the best forward at #4 because three of those will be gone by #8.

you're building in a massive assumption that those three teams will be making those three picks.

[baseline bum]

His camp has to push the point guard narrative since he can't shoot.
Thompson twins were way better prospects and have been really underwhelming just because they don't have a shot, despite doing everything else well.

Risacher is out of reach, other wing prospects aren't that convincing.
I'd be fine with Castle and Dillingham, would give us complementary players with clear roles.

Tre/Dillingham and Jeremy/Castle as players who can't share the floor.
Devin as the best perimeter player can fit in any lineup, then a couple more 3-D guys with Champagnie being the last man in SG-SF-PF rotation.
Or just one more 3-D guy if Keldon isn't traded.

But we must get rid of Collins.

Disagree, Amen looked really good even without the jumper, and Portland has to be kicking themselves now taking Scoot ahead of him.

[LeBowen]

you're building in a massive assumption that those three teams will be making those three picks.

Do tell where's the logic in Pistons, Hornets or Blazers taking Dillingham/Topic.
Castle and Sheppard are only realistic guard picks for them, imo.


Disagree, Amen looked really good even without the jumper, and Portland has to be kicking themselves now taking Scoot ahead of him.

He did look good, but he's still a perimeter player with no jumpshot whatsoever.

[baseline bum]

I'd be upset with Topic or Dillingham at #4 because Hornets, Pistons and Blazers won't pick them. They have their star guards and don't need another guard that can't defend.


Kings would never take Haliburton when they have Fox

[LeBowen]

Kings would never take Haliburton when they have Fox

Spurs would never take Haliburton when they have DJ and Derrick.

Anyhow, I get your point, but drafting a 160lbs guard when you need everything else seems like a really bad idea.

[Knoxxx]

I wasn’t high on Castle at first then looked at the choices, his positional versatility, his defense, BBIQ and also realized on the shooting front we can either get Dilly at 8 or at least Knecht so we are still checking a good number of boxes across the 2 picks.

I also don’t fault those that say Dilly at 4 because he’s dynamic, can shoot, can pass and it opens up plenty of remaining wing options with length at 8.

[exstatic]

Do tell where's the logic in Pistons, Hornets or Blazers taking Dillingham/Topic.
Castle and Sheppard are only realistic guard picks for them, imo.

What I’m saying is that one or more of those teams could trade their picks to teams that DO want guards.

[onechance87]

I wasn’t high on Castle at first then looked at the choices, his positional versatility, his defense, BBIQ and also realized on the shooting front we can either get Dilly at 8 or at least Knecht so we are still checking a good number of boxes across the 2 picks.

I also don’t fault those that say Dilly at 4 because he’s dynamic, can shoot, can pass and it opens up plenty of remaining wing options with length at 8.

can knecht be playmaker...Feel like we need sum type of playmaker.Dont really trust castle to do that constsiently.

[BacktoBasics]

I wasn’t high on Castle at first then looked at the choices, his positional versatility, his defense, BBIQ and also realized on the shooting front we can either get Dilly at 8 or at least Knecht so we are still checking a good number of boxes across the 2 picks.

I also don’t fault those that say Dilly at 4 because he’s dynamic, can shoot, can pass and it opens up plenty of remaining wing options with length at 8.
I don’t know a ton about Knecht but he’s quite a bit older. I don’t see why we would draft someone who is already pretty much at his ceiling.

[mo7888]

I don’t know a ton about Knecht but he’s quite a bit older. I don’t see why we would draft someone who is already pretty much at his ceiling.

Because he's not remotely at his ceiling. He's just closer to it than the younger players.

[Knoxxx]

can knecht be playmaker...Feel like we need sum type of playmaker.Dont really trust castle to do that constsiently.

Not really, Knecht was my fall back. Remember, we don't expect to get defense, shooting, playmaking, and length all in this draft.

[Mr. Body]

I don't see why Detroit shouldn't consider Dillingham pretty seriously. Badly need scoring and star wattage. Put him out there and see if he can get 22 ppg. At least there's some talent.

[DAF86]

I don’t know a ton about Knecht but he’s quite a bit older. I don’t see why we would draft someone who is already pretty much at his ceiling.

Derrick White was an old rookie and look at him. Knecht I think could contribute right awat and be a rotation piece for years to come. He has a higher floor than prospects like Castle, Topic, etc.

[DAF86]

I don't see why Detroit shouldn't consider Dillingham pretty seriously. Badly need scoring and star wattage. Put him out there and see if he can get 22 ppg. At least there's some talent.

Detroit is going to draft Buzelis, if the Spurs don't.

[Dverde]

Knecht would be a safe pick and I don’t mind it. He is going be play in the league for a long time. Probably never an all star but solid rotation player.

[rascal]

Problem is the Spurs don't have Chip anymore and you gotta wonder if Kawhi would have been another MKG without Chip given how terrible his jumpshot was (e.g. going behind his head and chunking it forward)

Chip gets too much credit. Kawhi made Kawhi not Chip.

[mystargtr34]

I don't see why Detroit shouldn't consider Dillingham pretty seriously. Badly need scoring and star wattage. Put him out there and see if he can get 22 ppg. At least there's some talent.

I also think Dillingham is in play at 5 with the Pistons. Buzelis is a better fit positionally because he can play the big wing/forward position but the Pistons badly need shooting and there really isn’t any at big wing/forward other than Risacher who will be off the board.

[baseline bum]

Chip gets too much credit. Kawhi made Kawhi not Chip.

Then why was Kawhi's shot so shit until working with Chip?

[rascal]

you're building in a massive assumption that those three teams will be making those three picks.

In fantasy footbal, you're at pick 11 and the guy at pick 12 already has a QB
you drafting a QB in the 5th round or taking another top player and playing that the guy at 12 doesn't draft another QB at the 5/6 turn?

I'm gambling that he doesn't go QB again and get my QB on the return swing in round 6.

Spurs have to view this draft with getting the max value out of BOTH picks. It's not every draft they will have the advantage of having two close picks to one another.

[rascal]

Then why was Kawhi's shot so shit until working with Chip?

Kawhi matured as a player in his all around game. Without chip I still believe Kawhi improves his shot.

What did Chip do to improve his shot? Sometimes it's just a matter of the player working on it on his own.

Everyone can believe what they want, that's what I believe.

[rascal]

Detroit is going to draft Buzelis, if the Spurs don't.

Let them

[baseline bum]

Kawhi matured as a player in his all around game. Without chip I still believe Kawhi improves his shot.

What did Chip do to improve his shot? Sometimes it's just a matter of the player working on it on his own.

Everyone can believe what they want, that's what I believe.

The team rushed him to San Antonio after the draft specifically so Chip could teach him an entirely new jumpshot before the 2012 lockout officially started. Kawhi deserves the credit for the work he did all summer because the shot Chip taught him had become his jumpshot once he returned for training camp after the lockout, but he didn't come up with that shot on his own.

[Biggems]

Castle helped lead his team to a Title at UConn. He has good size and a high BBIQ. He may not be an athletic freak, but he has good athleticism. He sells out on the defensive end of the court and takes it personal when his man scores. He has a fire, passion, and hunger to be the best and to win. He doesn't just go through the motion, pout, sulk, or rely on his athletic ability. He puts in the work on and off the court.

Yes, I want Castle at 4. The only other player I would take at 4 would be Sarr, if by some chance he fell that far. That isn't happening, so take Castle.

Then, at 8, you can take an athletic freak in Holland, also a defensive stalwart, or go with a sharpshooter.

[rascal]

Castle helped lead his team to a Title at UConn. He has good size and a high BBIQ. He may not be an athletic freak, but he has good athleticism. He sells out on the defensive end of the court and takes it personal when his man scores. He has a fire, passion, and hunger to be the best and to win. He doesn't just go through the motion, pout, sulk, or rely on his athletic ability. He puts in the work on and off the court.

Yes, I want Castle at 4. The only other player I would take at 4 would be Sarr, if by some chance he fell that far. That isn't happening, so take Castle.

Then, at 8, you can take an athletic freak in Holland, also a defensive stalwart, or go with a sharpshooter.

I also have them

1. Sarr
2. Castle

[Pauleta14]

Chip gets too much credit. Kawhi made Kawhi not Chip.

Before Kawhi there was Tony

He made TP unguardable with his mid range shot

+ Almost every Okc players had their % up not by chance

[poopbox]

Is Castle went 2, Rockets would take Risacher 3 and the Spurs would be left holding their dicks. Let’s hope this doesn’t happen tbh.

Would force them to take the only logical player they should be taking at 4, Dilli. We should hop it plays out just like this tbh :clap

[Chinook]

I think people are catastrophizing picks that aren't their guys. There are probably 20 players in this draft I'd be perfectly fine with the Spurs taking at 4 or 8. The thing I care about is them getting two early shots to take guys they like -- who those guys actually are is basically irrelevant. Free agency and the possibility of trades is where the real action is in my mind. The draft will be a huge factor in what approach the Spurs take to the off-season, but there are ways to respond to any selections the team makes. The important thing is that the Spurs get there, not the path they take. I have posited various scenarios for how this particular summer could go and will continue to do so. With Wemby as pluripotent as he is and the team's assets and flexibility, there are so many different ways to try to skin this cat. Some will involve prioritizing shooting. Some will involve prioritizing defense. Some involve drafting guards. Some forwards. Hell maybe Edey even gets in there somehow. No matter what specific scenario happens, it'll probably still be a fine enough next step in the path. They haven't gotten to the consequential part yet.

[TD 21]

:lmao How long have you been a Spurs fan? "Free agency and trades" are not where the "real action is at", it's where it goes to die. The mere mention of those worried probably terrifies them.

Expect the Spurs specialty: two perceived choir boy picks who can't shoot and the best player they might sign or trade for is probably Brogdon, who could be the only other rotational addition.

[taps]

One thing I like about the Castle pick is Spurs are taking their best opportunities to build the one-and-done defensive DNA to the team body. The motion offense is there and should improve with a motion playmaker who timvp thinks might start right away.
-Also looking forward to Dilly filling it up.

[T Park]

im stunned by people that say "Will he improve? doubtful" of a kid who's 19.

what the actual fuck,

[T Park]

You're right. We should just draft Dalton Knecht at 4 and call it a day.


dear god

[T Park]

His current floor isn't an improvement over anyone, tbh.

lol hes 100% an improvement over Jones or Champegnie.
lol wtf are we doing here?

[T Park]

I like castle,But feel like we need a more faster pg who moves the pace and breaks the defense down and gets
easy shots for his teammates.Think thats what topic and dilly do imo,Can read the defence and push the ball
make plays to get shots for themselves or teammates.Castle plays smart and safe basketball,Dont know if has
another level to be aggressive and dominate.

Topic is a horrific shooter with meh athleticism. hes a giant ass bust waiting to happen

[T Park]

If both, Castle and Sheppard are available, I'm taking Sheppard without thinking twice.

To me both have about the same celing, with Sheppard having the much higher floor and being able to contribute right away. Sheppard's shooting is gonna be way more valuable than Castle's defense, and Sheppard's playmaking on defense will help him be less of a liability on that side of the floor, than Castle on offense with his lack of shooting.

If the Rockets draft Sheppard, then I would rather go with Buzelis over Castle at #4, before the Pistons take him at 5, and draft a guard at #8, which will no doubt have 2 or 3 interesting options (Dillingham, Topic or even Castle himself).

lol Buzelis is a fucking nightmare offensively wtf lol

[DAF86]

Topic is a horrific shooter with meh athleticism. hes a giant ass bust waiting to happen

You literally described Castle, tbh. :lol

[kobyz]

If you don't go for Castle to be your PG, i think it's better to draft Cody Williams over him

[DAF86]

lol hes 100% an improvement over Jones or Champegnie.
lol wtf are we doing here?

Right now? He isn't even close.

Did you see the March Madness games? Coaches were putting bigmen on him and giving him 15 feet of cushion, and the guy still couldn't buy a jumper.

Now imagine that next to Wembanyma, wait, you don't have to imagine, it already happens with Sochan. Imagine teams leaving two of our guys wide ass open to triple team Wemby at all times.

That's why he's not an improvement over Champagnie yet. Opposing teams at least need to have a guy on Julien.

[R. DeMurre]

Castle helped lead his team to a Title at UConn. He has good size and a high BBIQ. He may not be an athletic freak, but he has good athleticism. He sells out on the defensive end of the court and takes it personal when his man scores. He has a fire, passion, and hunger to be the best and to win. He doesn't just go through the motion, pout, sulk, or rely on his athletic ability. He puts in the work on and off the court.


I don't know how accurate it is to say that Castle helped lead UConn to a title. Of guys with significant minutes on the UConn team, Castle is 5th in scoring, 5th in BPM, 5th in WS, and 7th in DBPM... it's probably more accurate to say he was a good young role player on a deep experienced team with great coaching.

[Mr. Body]

im stunned by people that say "Will he improve? doubtful" of a kid who's 19.

what the actual fuck,

Ron Holland can develop a jump shot and develop team basketball skills
Reed Sheppard can develop point guard skills and become Mark Price
Cody Williams can develop into a good defender and a point forward

Stephon Castle is a finished product

It's like winning a national championship as a key player hurts him somehow. All of these players are the same high school class, but somehow he's an exception.

My concern about him is less his jump shot, which I think will come around, and more a lack of burst and speed. But then I've never thought he'd be a supreme offensive point guard. What I'm getting is an exceptional defenders and a guy who will understand everything about the motion offense. A guy who will know how and where to get Wemby the ball and work off him.

But yeah, people think he's a finished product because he fit in seamlessly on a dominant team.

[BatManu20]

dear god

Your inability to understand sarcasm on this board is impressive.

[Strategic]

While I’m not so much against Castle’s game, I’d rather see the Spurs pick up a mid career point guard to help out this year. Draft the best couple versatile forwards available. Either way it’s gonna be wait and see how they pan out.

[Extra Stout]

Stephon Castle is an overrated non-shooter with a broken jump shot who benefitted from playing on a deep Connecticut team, and who knows whether his defense will translate. Also, he is such a great prospect that somebody will trade up to #3 to get him. This is the 1984 NBA draft.

[Raven]

Castle helped lead his team to a Title at UConn. He has good size and a high BBIQ. He may not be an athletic freak, but he has good athleticism. He sells out on the defensive end of the court and takes it personal when his man scores. He has a fire, passion, and hunger to be the best and to win. He doesn't just go through the motion, pout, sulk, or rely on his athletic ability. He puts in the work on and off the court.

Yes, I want Castle at 4. The only other player I would take at 4 would be Sarr, if by some chance he fell that far. That isn't happening, so take Castle.

Then, at 8, you can take an athletic freak in Holland, also a defensive stalwart, or go with a sharpshooter.

Holland isn't a freak, he has perfectly normal measurables.

[Mr. Body]

Castle going to Houston would truly suck. Not as in not getting him, but having to play that team. I don't care if they get Risacher. I don't think he helps them much. Getting Sheppard would be worse, and then Castle could be a headache.

[rascal]

:lmao How long have you been a Spurs fan? "Free agency and trades" are not where the "real action is at", it's where it goes to die. The mere mention of those worried probably terrifies them.

Expect the Spurs specialty: two perceived choir boy picks who can't shoot and the best player they might sign or trade for is probably Brogdon, who could be the only other rotational addition.

Agree, a very conservation, fearful for a big change, franchise the Spurs are.

Spurs hate to shakeup the roster with a big trade even with one of the worst roster's in the league.

[T Park]

Right now? He isn't even close.

Did you see the March Madness games? Coaches were putting bigmen on him and giving him 15 feet of cushion, and the guy still couldn't buy a jumper.

Now imagine that next to Wembanyma, wait, you don't have to imagine, it already happens with Sochan. Imagine teams leaving two of our guys wide ass open to triple team Wemby at all times.

That's why he's not an improvement over Champagnie yet. Opposing teams at least need to have a guy on Julien.

he'll make the shots.

draft the best player and thats Castle. this isn't hard

[T Park]

Your inability to understand sarcasm on this board is impressive.

sure it was

[BackHome]

Castle helped lead his team to a Title at UConn. He has good size and a high BBIQ. He may not be an athletic freak, but he has good athleticism. He sells out on the defensive end of the court and takes it personal when his man scores. He has a fire, passion, and hunger to be the best and to win. He doesn't just go through the motion, pout, sulk, or rely on his athletic ability. He puts in the work on and off the court.

Yes, I want Castle at 4. The only other player I would take at 4 would be Sarr, if by some chance he fell that far. That isn't happening, so take Castle.

Then, at 8, you can take an athletic freak in Holland, also a defensive stalwart, or go with a sharpshooter.

Nice take and I have to say I would not mind at all with picking Castle and Holland as both I think will very be VERY good one on one and team defenders. I know some are not high on Holland but I think he was in a very bad situation the coaching and the team set up was just a complete train wreck. His personality to me seems very much like Castle they both play hard on both ends and both do not like getting scored on. Is he a day one starter "Nope" but I think he is a more athletic Murray was when he was drafted as I remember he could not dribble the ball without looking like a hunchback and he turned out OK...

[DAF86]

he'll make the shots.

draft the best player and thats Castle. this isn't hard

Why would he suddenly start hitting his shots in the NBA, when he didn't in college, against lesser competition and a shorter 3pt line?

[DAF86]

Castle going to Houston would truly suck. Not as in not getting him, but having to play that team. I don't care if they get Risacher. I don't think he helps them much. Getting Sheppard would be worse, and then Castle could be a headache.

A team of Thompson, Castle and Sengun can only be a headache for Rockets' fans, tbh.

[Atl Spur]

Castle & Holland = dream draft

[Extra Stout]

I really like Castle, but given team needs around shooting and spacing if it’s a choice between Sheppard and Castle at 4, I think Sheppard is the right pick. Castle is unlikely to fall to 8.

[TrainOfThought5]

Castle & Holland = dream draft

we need SOME shooting and spacing

[BackHome]

In this case I would say Castle getting maybe 15 minutes a game and Holland playing a lot more in G League and coming up and with the big boys every now and then. If your counting on both of our picks getting Wemby type minutes and making any thing close to his impact your going to be very disappointed

[CGD]

we need SOME shooting and spacing

I think they’ll find that in FA if need be. Draft of only one part of the offseason.

That said, I’m a hard pass on Holland and his MKG looking shot. Rather roll the dice with Salaun.

[CGD]

A team of Thompson, Castle and Sengun can only be a headache for Rockets' fans, tbh.

I believe Houston will successfully trade their pick to a team hot for Clingon.

[R. DeMurre]

Castle's likely better because of ball-handling and passing chops, but I can see a concern with a Michael Kidd-Gilchrist comp. MKG was coming off a championship with Kentucky, was seen as an elite defender, a poor shooter, and had good but not great advanced stats. So, very similar to Castle. I understand why people like him, but throwing out phrases like "no brainer" or "it's an easy decision" is a tad overconfident imo...

[Knoxxx]

Castle's likely better because of ball-handling and passing chops, but I can see a concern with a Michael Kidd-Gilchrist comp. MKG was coming off a championship with Kentucky, was seen as an elite defender, a poor shooter, and had good but not great advanced stats. So, very similar to Castle. I understand why people like him, but throwing out phrases like "no brainer" or "it's an easy decision" is a tad overconfident imo...

Yeah! It's a no brainer that we could pick any of the top 12 players in this draft and argue they are almost as good as the others, though. Which is good for the Spurs.

[Mr. Body]

Castle's likely better because of ball-handling and passing chops, but I can see a concern with a Michael Kidd-Gilchrist comp. MKG was coming off a championship with Kentucky, was seen as an elite defender, a poor shooter, and had good but not great advanced stats. So, very similar to Castle. I understand why people like him, but throwing out phrases like "no brainer" or "it's an easy decision" is a tad overconfident imo...

Kidd-Gilchrist was improving as a complete player before injuries derailed his career, including a labrum tear to his shoulder.

[exstatic]

Castle's likely better because of ball-handling and passing chops, but I can see a concern with a Michael Kidd-Gilchrist comp. MKG was coming off a championship with Kentucky, was seen as an elite defender, a poor shooter, and had good but not great advanced stats. So, very similar to Castle. I understand why people like him, but throwing out phrases like "no brainer" or "it's an easy decision" is a tad overconfident imo...

Have you ever seen MKG’s form? You can’t just compare percentages,and say Castle is a comp.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/esk45_DUq4g/maxresdefault.jpg

[R. DeMurre]

Have you ever seen MKG’s form? You can’t just compare percentages,and say Castle is a comp.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/esk45_DUq4g/maxresdefault.jpg

Recheck the post-- the comp was more than just shooting. And I don't buy the idea that a poor shooter is going to necessarily improve because his shot "looks" good or looks ok. If anything, that can be a red flag-- having decent form and still shooting a bad percentage.

[rascal]

Recheck the post-- the comp was more than just shooting. And I don't buy the idea that a poor shooter is going to necessarily improve because his shot "looks" good or looks ok. If anything, that can be a red flag-- having decent form and still shooting a bad percentage.

Shooting form is important.

If the form looks good it might just be a minor correction or not rushing the shot so fast so just a timing issue.

If the shooting form is bad the whole shot needs to be corrected and reworked and it shows awkwardness with the player and it may never be able to be improved upon if the athletic ability and coordination isn't there with the player.

[Mr. Body]

I would take Kidd-Gilchrist with an improvable jump shot out of this draft, definitely. It's the same type that also got you a Kawhi.

[exstatic]

Recheck the post-- the comp was more than just shooting. And I don't buy the idea that a poor shooter is going to necessarily improve because his shot "looks" good or looks ok. If anything, that can be a red flag-- having decent form and still shooting a bad percentage.

Shooting blows up your comp completely. Shooting form, upstairs, can look fine, but if your base is wrong, poor results. That was Wemby’s problem early. They very well could fix his form and shot, but there was no fixing that monstrosity of MKGs. Terrible comp, even if you’re looking at other things. MKGs career was doomed from the start.

[R. DeMurre]

Shooting form is important.

If the form looks good it might just be a minor correction or not rushing the shot so fast so just a timing issue.

If the shooting form is bad the whole shot needs to be corrected and reworked and it shows awkwardness with the player and it may never be able to be improved upon if the athletic ability and coordination isn't there with the player.


There's a correlative relationship, I agree, but it's not written in stone. Lots of folks pointed out Haliburton's funky form and said his college 3pt% was probably a fluke, but he's been a consistently good shooter for half a decade now.

[Mr. Body]

Form is an uncertain thing. A player can have good form but bad touch. This is one reason I'm not high on Risacher, despite good shooting numbers generally this season and upper form that looks good (footing isn't always great). When he misses, there's no give, no softness or bounce.

[Extra Stout]

If Castle develops a shot, his upside is complementary superstar. If he doesn’t, he’s a marginal contributor. Worth the boom/bust risk?

[Mr. Body]

If Castle develops a shot, his upside is complementary superstar. If he doesn’t, he’s a marginal contributor. Worth the boom/bust risk?

In this draft? To get a potential lock-down defender? Yeah x1000.

Some reason people getting obsessed with one aspect of things without seeing the overall value. If he never shoots above .300 from deep and is an exceptional perimeter defender you take this player.

[R. DeMurre]

DeRozan is a great example: good form, good midrange shooting, good free throw shooter. All the signs are positive, so making him a good 3 pt shooter shouldn't be too difficult, right? And now he's 34 and slightly better than he used to be, but still not a real three point threat. I certainly don't think it's impossible, but people tend to be a little cavalier about the likelihood of future shooting improvement.

[Mr. Body]

DeRozan is a great example: good form, good midrange shooting, good free throw shooter. All the signs are positive, so making him a good 3 pt shooter shouldn't be too difficult, right? And now he's 34 and slightly better than he used to be, but still not a real three point threat. I certainly don't think it's impossible, but people tend to be a little cavalier about the likelihood of future shooting improvement.

Interesting case. A player that just is comfortable in the mid-range. Deep shots just don't work for him. Then you have a toddler in Dillingham who launches from pretty far out, or Curry.

[R. DeMurre]

Interesting case. A player that just is comfortable in the mid-range. Deep shots just don't work for him. Then you have a toddler in Dillingham who launches from pretty far out, or Curry.


Granted, with DeRozan i think it was mental. He was comfortable taking a shot with his heel on the three point line, but not his toe... and even on three point attempts, he had more shots called twos than I've seen with other players because his toe was on the line, as if even on three point attempts he had this psychological need to be as close to the line as possible.

[TD 21]

Shooting form is important.

If the form looks good it might just be a minor correction or not rushing the shot so fast so just a timing issue.

If the shooting form is bad the whole shot needs to be corrected and reworked and it shows awkwardness with the player and it may never be able to be improved upon if the athletic ability and coordination isn't there with the player.

I remember one of my old coaches telling me early on that despite how good of a shooter I appeared to be, I'd supposedly have to change my shot in order to get it off in games (despite not lacking size) since the release point was too low . . . after seeing me obliterate that theory in short order, he apologized.

One of the GOAT shooters, Stojakovic, had unorthodox form, as does the aforementioned Haliburton and others good-great ones.


If Castle develops a shot, his upside is complementary superstar. If he doesn’t, he’s a marginal contributor. Worth the boom/bust risk?

There's no such thing as a "complementary superstar", since there's only five currently (Jokic, Embiid, Antetokounmpo, Doncic, Gilgeous-Alexander) and only one other obvious one (Wembanyama) in the making, which is more or less a typical number at a given time.

Castle's ceiling is almost certainly elite role player and he more than likely won't hit that either.


I think they’ll find that in FA if need be. Draft of only one part of the offseason.

That said, I’m a hard pass on Holland and his MKG looking shot. Rather roll the dice with Salaun.

How many times have we seen this though? They've repeatedly tried signing one dimensional specialists like Forbes or McDermott, playing them in outsized roles and hoping that would solve the issue.

Granted, their current two best players are volume 3-point shooters for the first time ever, but still. Proficiency wise, it's got to come from other core players.

[R. DeMurre]

It's interesting how some have dismissed Nikola Topic as a "non-shooter"-- despite his excellent 3 year large sample FT% of 87%-- while also holding out an optimistic view that Castle's 3 pt shot will come around... I think objectively speaking it would make more sense to bet on Topic's 3pt shot coming around than Castle's.

[LeBowen]

It's interesting how some have dismissed Nikola Topic as a "non-shooter"-- despite his excellent 3 year FT% of 87%-- while also holding out an optimistic view that Castle's 3 pt shot will come around... I think objectively speaking it would make more sense to bet on Topic's 3pt shot coming around than Castle's.

The problem is that Topic needs to improve in more areas.

Castle should be an all-elite defender and a solid secondary playmaker at the very least. Questionable if he can be the primary point guard and if his shot will develop.
Topic will be an elite passer, but every other aspect of his game is a huge question mark. Can't shoot as of now and is an awful defender.

If Castle doesn't improve his shot or playmaking, he'll still be a solid glue guy.
If Topic doesn't improve his shooting, he's out of the league.

[Mr. Body]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYry-lcKbi4

Great breakdown of defensive possessions from Castle. Shows why he's not simply an elite on-ball defender but elite in the team concept as well. At the beginning, he points out that UConn with Castle and Clingan on the floor was 99th percentile defensive rating in the country. When Castle played without Clingan, the drop was to 'very good,' but the same drop was seen with Clingan without Castle. In simple terms, they were both nearly equals in making the Huskies a smothering defense, despite Castle being a freshman.

A comment points out that had Castle hit three more 3 pointers, his season average would have been .307 instead of .267, which is what Jrue Holiday shot at UCLA. That's how much of a variance there is.

https://tankathon.com/players/compare?players=stephon-castle--jrue-holiday

And Castle is bigger and stronger at the same position. Who doesn't want Jrue Holiday out of this draft?

[R. DeMurre]

The problem is that Topic needs to improve in more areas.

Castle should be an all-elite defender and a solid secondary playmaker at the very least. Questionable if he can be the primary point guard and if his shot will develop.
Topic will be an elite passer, but every other aspect of his game is a huge question mark. Can't shoot as of now and is an awful defender.

If Castle doesn't improve his shot or playmaking, he'll still be a solid glue guy.
If Topic doesn't improve his shooting, he's out of the league.


Yeah, I can see that view of Castle, and I'd say that puts his median outcome at about Dyson Daniels, who I actually like and who at 20 years old is still underrated imo. It'll be cool to watch over the next few years and see how they both develop.

[DAF86]

Have you ever seen MKG’s form? You can’t just compare percentages,and say Castle is a comp.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/esk45_DUq4g/maxresdefault.jpg

How the fuck do you pick up a ball as a kid and start shooting like that? Why did nobody else correct him?

[baseline bum]

I really like Castle, but given team needs around shooting and spacing if it’s a choice between Sheppard and Castle at 4, I think Sheppard is the right pick. Castle is unlikely to fall to 8.

Sheppard seems like the obvious pick for Houston though unless Risacher is still on the board.

[Mr. Body]

Sheppard seems like the obvious pick for Houston though unless Risacher is still on the board.

If I had a bet, Houston's pick goes to Brooklyn in a Bridges trade or to a team that really wants Clingan.

[DAF86]

The problem is that Topic needs to improve in more areas.

Castle should be an all-elite defender and a solid secondary playmaker at the very least. Questionable if he can be the primary point guard and if his shot will develop.
Topic will be an elite passer, but every other aspect of his game is a huge question mark. Can't shoot as of now and is an awful defender.

If Castle doesn't improve his shot or playmaking, he'll still be a solid glue guy.
If Topic doesn't improve his shooting, he's out of the league.

Neither of those things are even close to being locks, tbh. Vassell came to the league as an elite defensive prospect, he's average now, at best. Castle's handles and playmaking are far from being a lock in the next level also. As it is, he was barely a secondary playmaker in college, why would he be a lock to be a secondary playmaker in the NBA?

If you draft Castle, it is because of the believe of him developing his game. He's not even close to a sure thing or a high floor guy, like a Reed Sheppard could be, tbh.

[SpursBills]

Yeah, I can see that view of Castle, and I'd say that puts his median outcome at about Dyson Daniels, who I actually like and who at 20 years old is still underrated imo. It'll be cool to watch over the next few years and see how they both develop.

To your point re Castle and Topic, it just really depends heavily on team context. Who would you rather have, Dyson Daniels or Josh Giddey? Totally depends on the team. Most spurs fans would probably say Daniels since Spurs already have Wemby who's going to use up a lot of possessions and projects to do at least some creation, and they really want another defender to throw at elite playmakers in the west. If you're a Wizards or Nets fan though? Probably lean heavily towards Giddey, as they're more willing to risk a useless player to get an initiator.

[LeBowen]

What? Neither of those things are even close to being locks. Vassell came to the league as an elite defensive prospect, he's average now, at best. Castle's handles and playmaking are far from being a lock in the next level also. As it is, he was barely a secondary playmaker in college, why would he be a lock to be a secondary playmaker in the NBA?

Vassell wasn't as good as Castle on defense and Castle has a way better build.
UConn system working against him if we talk playmaking has already been explained.

Anyhow, not a single player in this draft is a sure thing. We can just hope PATFO gets the right players. At least one of them needs to become an important rotation member or we wasted a season for nothing.

[baseline bum]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYry-lcKbi4

Great breakdown of defensive possessions from Castle. Shows why he's not simply an elite on-ball defender but elite in the team concept as well. At the beginning, he points out that UConn with Castle and Clingan on the floor was 99th percentile defensive rating in the country. When Castle played without Clingan, the drop was to 'very good,' but the same drop was seen with Clingan without Castle. In simple terms, they were both nearly equals in making the Huskies a smothering defense, despite Castle being a freshman.

A comment points out that had Castle hit three more 3 pointers, his season average would have been .307 instead of .267, which is what Jrue Holiday shot at UCLA. That's how much of a variance there is.

https://tankathon.com/players/compare?players=stephon-castle--jrue-holiday

And Castle is bigger and stronger at the same position. Who doesn't want Jrue Holiday out of this draft?

Though gotta say Holiday was a supremely disappointing player his season at UCLA. I remember when they got him I was thinking he'd be an absolutely dominant PG based on his HS play and it took him until his second season in the NBA to figure things out and live up to that sky high potential he showed in HS.

[baseline bum]

If I had a bet, Houston's pick goes to Brooklyn in a Bridges trade or to a team that really wants Clingan.

Brookyln really should trade Bridges to Houston (which would royally suck for the rest of the West), but thankfully they seem as stubborn as Masai was with Anunoby when teams were making wild over the top offers for him.

[KobesAchilles]

I want Topic over Castle. Him being out a year doesn’t hurt our timeline at all. I feel like the Spurs would take Sheppard over all of them though from an analytics standpoint

[baseline bum]

God damn I wish we still had Chip. If so Castle would be my obvious first choice after he taught Kawhi chunk the ball over his head Leonard to have near perfect Kobe like form on his jumper. I'd even take Castle #1 if Chip was still here. But without him and looking at how Sochan, Wesley, and Branham haven't developed much on their shot in two years (outside of Sochan's free throw) I think I'm leaning Dillingham over Castle. Though if the Spurs think Castle has a Kawhi like work ethic I wouldn't fault them taking him.

[SpursBills]

Neither of those things are even close to being locks, tbh. Vassell came to the league as an elite defensive prospect, he's average now, at best. Castle's handles and playmaking are far from being a lock in the next level also. As it is, he was barely a secondary playmaker in college, why would he be a lock to be a secondary playmaker in the NBA?

If you draft Castle, it is because of the believe of him developing his game. He's not even close to a sure thing or a high floor guy, like a Reed Sheppard could be, tbh.

One minor point about Vassell, even though he had great stock% in college, I think the context of his defensive projection at the next level was that he was going to be a very strong team and off-ball defender but would have trouble as a POA defender due to his slighter build and difficulty handling physicality, which to a certain extent we have seen at the next level.

I do agree with the rest of your post though, as I think too often we underestimate prospects' floors. In fact, probably the 2 surest attributes in the draft to me right now are 1) Sarr's defensive versatility and 2) Edey's ability to score in the post

[baseline bum]

I want Topic over Castle. Him being out a year doesn’t hurt our timeline at all. I feel like the Spurs would take Sheppard over all of them though from an analytics standpoint

Topic will likely still be there at #8, you could have both.

[DAF86]

If Castle develops a shot, his upside is complementary superstar. If he doesn’t, he’s a marginal contributor. Worth the boom/bust risk?

If Castle doesn'g develop his shot, he could easily be out of the league before his rookie contract runs out. Why are folks speaking of Castle as if he were this high floor prospect? Those are guys like Risacher, Sheppard, Knecht, imho. Heck, I see Dillingham and his shooting as more of a sure thing than Castle, tbh.

[baseline bum]

If Castle doesn'g develop his shot, he could easily be out of the league before his rookie contract runs out. Why are folks speaking of Castle as if he were this high floor prospect? Those are guys like Risacher, Sheppard, Knecht, imho. Heck, I see Dillingham and his shooting as more of a sure thing than Castle, tbh.

Castle's floor is probably Swiss army knife off the bench. No way this guy doesn't have a 10-15 year career, short of injury.

[R. DeMurre]

To your point re Castle and Topic, it just really depends heavily on team context. Who would you rather have, Dyson Daniels or Josh Giddey? Totally depends on the team. Most spurs fans would probably say Daniels since Spurs already have Wemby who's going to use up a lot of possessions and projects to do at least some creation, and they really want another defender to throw at elite playmakers in the west. If you're a Wizards or Nets fan though? Probably lean heavily towards Giddey, as they're more willing to risk a useless player to get an initiator.

Agreed generally, but I think the Spurs are so in need of talent that the context probably doesn't matter much, as I'm going with the supposition that most of the current players on the roster won't be on Wemby's first title level contending team.

[Mr. Body]

If Castle doesn'g develop his shot, he could easily be out of the league before his rookie contract runs out. Why are folks speaking of Castle as if he were this high floor prospect? Those are guys like Risacher, Sheppard, Knecht, imho. Heck, I see Dillingham and his shooting as more of a sure thing than Castle, tbh.

Because Castle projects at worst as a solid to very good defender? And one who can do multiple things on the court to help a team? It's not astonishing. There are many players in the league who fit that mold very directly. If there's anyone in this lottery who I project to not fall out of the league in their first or second contracts, it's Stephon Castle. His skill set is most likely to translate, translate well, and be in demand.

[R. DeMurre]

Because Castle projects at worst as a solid to very good defender? And one who can do multiple things on the court to help a team? It's not astonishing. There are many players in the league who fit that mold very directly. If there's anyone in this lottery who I project to not fall out of the league in their first or second contracts, it's Stephon Castle. His skill set is most likely to translate, translate well, and be in demand.

If Castle's not available, would you trade the 8th pick for Dyson Daniels? He's already established as a good NBA defender, a pretty good passer, and shoots over 31% from 3.

[Mr. Body]

One minor point about Vassell, even though he had great stock% in college, I think the context of his defensive projection at the next level was that he was going to be a very strong team and off-ball defender but would have trouble as a POA defender due to his slighter build and difficulty handling physicality, which to a certain extent we have seen at the next level.

I do agree with the rest of your post though, as I think too often we underestimate prospects' floors. In fact, probably the 2 surest attributes in the draft to me right now are 1) Sarr's defensive versatility and 2) Edey's ability to score in the post

One thing that's provocative and wasn't mentioned in that YT video I posted upstairs in the thread, is how Castle's defense is affecting his teammates. They're all playing very good defense -- it was a very well coached team. One thing I think you pointed out, superbly, is how the advanced stats of each player on UConn took a hit for their defensive scheme. Castle has a very poor steal % for a supposedly great defender. But the transferees (Newton, Spencer) saw their percentages drop, and it's because they played a non-gamble defense. That video pointed out Castle was about 40th percentile for his position in the NCAA for steals... but about 90th percentile for his position in the NCAA for blocks. He was such a suffocating defender because he wasn't gambling for steals.

Anyway... what I was trying to say was that you can see how often Castle's teammates are staying at home on their perimeter assignments even as offensive players are rolling into the rim, because they seem to know that Castle (as part of the screen and other actions) is going to pick them up. It's pretty fascinating how they're sometimes not budging to tag rolls because they know it's covered, and I think this helped the entire team suffocate opponents.

This is a long way of going into what you're saying, that Vassell may not be a great point of attack defender, but a Castle-Wemby kind of defender could unlock more of his potential as a help-side defender, take away more of his POA duties as they come up. Basically, a potentially elite perimeter defender adds on to everyone else on the floor.

[DAF86]

Castle's floor is probably Swiss army knife off the bench. No way this guy doesn't have a 10-15 year career, short of injury.

How many of those prototypes are there in the league now? A 15 minutes off the bench guard that can't shoot? There must be some, but I can't think of any right now.

Edit: Wesley. But he's more a project than a real rotation guy, tbh.