Pick #2 - Strategies

[mo7888]

If Harper is the max player we think he is and Castle is the other max player we think he is, wouldn’t that all be a problem with Fox and Wemby already having max contracts by then?

At some point, if they all pan out, two of them have to go. I don't think 3 max players are feasible anymore with the CBA we currently have. The question is when do you do it to extract the best value.

[poopbox]

You don’t hire Mitch Fn Johnson as your head coach before trading for Giannis, it’s not happening :lol

if they get an absolute godfather offer to trade down then go for it. But Harper is a stud and they can figure out fit later. It’s an amazing problem to have tbh.

Yeah this is the most telling sign that the Giannis talk is a pipe dream.

Hire a "rookie" head coach so you can trade for a guy who specifically got a rookie head coach fired WHILE they had a top 5 record in the east:lol

[Seventyniner]

I know Dallas has to take Flagg, to appease the fan base, but

Mavs - Giannis
Spurs - #1, PJ Washington
Bucks - #2, #14, Vassell, Gafford, multi SRPs.

Ok, I just run it, and there is no way to do it. Dallas cannot absorb Giannis contract, they would have to trade Washingon, Gafford, Klay, Christie and more, re-sign Irving to lower cap hit from 42 to like 30, which would mean he would need to sign 150/5 type of deal, at age 33 after ACL tear.

If the Spurs send out more salary, they can take back Kyrie's contract which would help Dallas with the salary matching part. Then the Spurs just have him never report to the team and leave in free agency next summer.

[RC_Drunkford]

If Harper is the max player we think he is and Castle is the other max player we think he is, wouldn’t that all be a problem with Fox and Wemby already having max contracts by then?

not really tbh. We can extend Fox, so we'd have him for 4 years. Then we can trade him with 1 year left on his deal when he's 31 and sign Harper to an extension, so he can take over. Having all 3 of them should also bring down their stats and we might be able to extend Castle and Harper for less. We'd have Harper on a rookie deal in Wemby's 2nd year of his max deal. That leaves us plenty of wiggle room to load up on role players.

[poopbox]

At some point, if they all pan out, two of them have to go. I don't think 3 max players are feasible anymore with the CBA we currently have. The question is when do you do it to extract the best value.

3 max players are possible in the new cba, you just have to have 2 of them on your team already so you can go over the cap to sign them, and of course it's going to put you in the second apron.

Now due to the second apron restrictions as far as trades go, the only scenario that makes sense for staying in the second apron is that you actually have a team that prints money and you don't plan on changing it up much in the future anyway. Like Boston.

[mo7888]

If the Spurs send out more salary, they can take back Kyrie's contract which would help Dallas with the salary matching part. Then the Spurs just have him never report to the team and leave in free agency next summer.

He's not leaving in FA just coming off that injury. So you'd be taking on two years.

[mo7888]

3 max players are possible in the new cba, you just have to have 2 of them on your team already so you can go over the cap to sign them, and of course it's going to put you in the second apron.

Now due to the second apron restrictions as far as trades go, the only scenario that makes sense for staying in the second apron is that you actually have a team that prints money and you don't plan on changing it up much in the future anyway. Like Boston.

Exactly... we won't ever be a secondary apron team...so two will have to go..

[LeBowen]

Let's assume Spurs go with their usual approach and keep the pick, which is obviously the most likely outcome.
Guard rotation would be fine, but there would be no space for Jeremy as a forward and he's obviously not big enough to be the backup big.
Keldon's best minutes were when he had the ball to attack the rim, but we don't want him to have the ball anymore.
Barnes must be kept because he's by far the best shooter on the team and Champagnie must be kept because he's a shooter with size on a negligible contract.
We simply must get a starting PF, next season's West will likely have AD, Gordon, Lebron, JJJ, nephew, Randle, Zion, Chet all playing PF, we have noone on the roster to match up with them. Well, other than Jeremy, but his offense is unplayable with the guards we'll have. I'd also get rid of Devin, but unfortunately that probly won't happen.

Keldon and either Jeremy or #14 for John Collins.
Adams or Kornet as the veteran insurance policy at C.

240 minutes available, 48 per position.

PG: Fox (34), Harper (14), Wesley
SG: Castle (32), Harper (16), Branham
SF: Barnes (20), Devin (28), Champagnie
PF: Collins (18), Barnes (8), Jeremy or #14 (22), Mamu
C: Wemby (34), Collins (14), veteran backup

Obviously not set in stone, but you get the point.
If #14 pick is used it should be a big forward or even Sorber.

Collins would open up a lot of possibilities for Bench lineups that could just ran most benches off the floor.
Something like Harper/Castle/Champagnie/Barnes/Collins positionless basketball, just push the pace up and blow games wide open.
Wemby sits early, then we push the pace on the already tired opposition big.

Playing Nuggets or Minnesota? Can easily size up and even go with Wemby/veteran frontcourt.
If we draft Sorber, then we don't need a veteran backup big, but Collins won't play C minutes.

Sounds kind of dumb because he's not some all-star, but considering what's available on the market, Collins should be the priority because he won't be expensive and is perfect age/archetype.

[couchman]

No way am I trading away #2 unless we get a star player in return.
I said before the draft that picks 1&2 were picks you keep while 3&4 were picks you could trade down from.
Flagg is Tier 1 by himself.
Harper is Tier 2 by himself.
Everyone else has big issues they have to fix before becoming good NBA players.

Harper is a special prospect who may be better than Castle the moment he shows up in San Antonio.
I’m even open to having Harper start and have Castle come off the bench as our “Manu.”
Harper has good 3pt % on catch and shoot 3s. Combine that with his ability to penetrate and he’d be deadly as an off ball guard with Fox. On paper he is a better fit with Fox than Castle.

The real question to me in a Giannis trade if would we rather have Castle or Harper still be a Spur after the trade?
It’s a tough call.
I’m inclined to keep both and let Giannis go elsewhere unless Giannis does what Fox did and lower his trade value while demanding to be a Spur.
Castle + Harper is a beautiful backcourt of the future for us.

[Seventyniner]

He's not leaving in FA just coming off that injury. So you'd be taking on two years.

He has a player option this summer, and if he opts in he will only have one season left on his contract. If he opts out he would be a free agent this summer.

The Spurs would only have his contract for one year. If he recovers enough by the end of the season, the Spurs could even buy him out and he could go wherever he wants, saving the Spurs a bit of money.

[mo7888]

He has a player option this summer, and if he opts in he will only have one season left on his contract. If he opts out he would be a free agent this summer.

The Spurs would only have his contract for one year. If he recovers enough by the end of the season, the Spurs could even buy him out and he could go wherever he wants, saving the Spurs a bit of money.

Touche'

[sfernald]

Are you joking? Dude was basically 31/12/7 last year with an over 30 PER.

If they make a deal with the lakers* the league will probably throw in the #1 pick next year and they can draft dybantsa lol.

[poopbox]

I think drafting Bailey would be f'ing it up, man I really don't like him when he has no handle. He's a high ceiling - high bust potential project IMO, especially coming in shorter than anticipated as his size was a huge part of the upside appeal.

Funny thing is Bailey profiles as the type of player who rarely bust, the "I score alot in isolation forward". Now not saying you can build a winner around a player like that, but they almost always do what they are drafted to do, which is score.

Obviously if he is in SA he won't be asked to carry and offense and try to go 1 on 2 or 3 alot so his handle specifically in SA will mean almost nothing coming out the gate.

I think it's way more risky drafting Harper when he knows he won't have the ball in his hand much for possibly years in a row. Those type of players become malcontents pretty quick. I am 100% positive that if you polled every point guard in this draft and said "what team would you want to play for" all of the good ones would say "Not San Antonio":lol

Matter fact I can easily see some stories in a few weeks along the lines of "Harper questions is fit in San Antonio"

Circumstances matter and the Spurs have one of the worst circumstances in the league for a young point guard who thinks he's a franchise player, cause he won't even get a chance to prove it until some other players are moved off the team.

[LeBowen]

Circumstances matter and the Spurs have one of the worst circumstances in the league for a young point guard who thinks he's a franchise player, cause he won't even get a chance to prove it until some other players are moved off the team.

Have you seen our offense whenever there was no CP3/Tre/Fox on the floor? I believe Castle can get to all-star level, but he doesn't look like a natural point guard, he's a Jimmy Butler.
We still had Devin, Keldon and even Jeremy bringing the ball up, ffs.

The only way Harper ends up unhappy is if power of friendship isn't dismantled and Devin keeps the green light to do whatever he wants.
We needed a 6th man triple threat guard before the lottery and we still need one. Harper looks overqualified for the job, 6th man role in his rookie year with 30mpg won't derail his development.

[spursparker9]

Let's fleece Nico for Flagg

[sfernald]

Yes I'd imagine if Harper and Castle pan out we'd move on from Fox and trade him, but their expensive contracts are a looong ways away. We could be looking at a very expensive team of Fox Giannis Wemby much sooner. I guess I'm just not convinced about giving up one of Harper or Castle and a ton of our assets we've been stashing for 4-5 years of Giannis. When was the last time an expensive team trading for a championship worked?

I guess the main thing as always is what are we giving up. Obv if Milwakee is stupid and gives us Giannis for an easy package you just eat up the cost of the team and do it, but I have a feeling they'll be looking for a fleece.

Boston last year when they traded in their last chips for Porzy and Holiday.

[Spurs9]

I wonder if MATFO are regretting that Fox trade right about now.

Why? The Spurs fleeced them in that trade. Fox is a valuable player they can still trade for more value if they want to.

[ginobilized]

#2 Strategy- Pick Dylan Harper and let the chips fall where they may.
His dad was one of the greatest defensive guards in the league. So good, that MJ insisted he be his teammate because he didn't like going against him in the playoffs.
Dylan's potential is somewhere between Shai and Harden with some untapped defensive prowess that the Spurs will harness. AND, are you sitting down SpursTalk? Harper will eventually make Vassell redundant unless he takes the role of spot-up shooter.

Wemby, Fox, Castle and Harper would be a lot to contend with for most teams. Even with Barnes at the 4, there's always going to be someone open. That could become a very dynamic offensive machine and get Wemby freed up to reach his historic potential. Defensively, we need some size and muscle.

[Spurs9]

Let's fleece Nico for Flagg
Dallas should avoid him at all costs tbh
https://i.imgur.com/BfpDM7K.png

[BatManu20]

Spurs aren't trading Fox :lol. They literally just traded for him with the intent to sign him to a long-term deal so he can pair up with Wemby for years to come. Spurs are just gonna have a log-jam in the backcourt and Harper's gonna have to come off the bench for a while. Weird situation for us and it sucks for him certainly,but it's a good problem to have.

[itzsoweezee]

Are you joking? Dude was basically 31/12/7 last year with an over 30 PER.

Wemby + Giannis would be unbeatable. Imagine teams trying to score on the spurs. And both Giannis and Wemby can handle the ball and are excellent passers. This could be one of the best front courts ever.

Don’t overthink it, San Antonio. This is why you collect all those assets. Cash them in for the superstar to pair with wemby.

[Extra Stout]

Klutch handed the Spurs Fox for some bench players, two fake draft picks, and two real picks years down the road. Spurs aren’t going to slap them in the face just because they have a “logjam” of elite/potentially elite guards.

It they don’t think all three can work, either Castle or Harper are extremely valuable chips — young premier talent — to swap for quality frontcourt players or other assets.

[poopbox]

Have you seen our offense whenever there was no CP3/Tre/Fox on the floor? I believe Castle can get to all-star level, but he doesn't look like a natural point guard, he's a Jimmy Butler.
We still had Devin, Keldon and even Jeremy bringing the ball up, ffs.

The only way Harper ends up unhappy is if power of friendship isn't dismantled and Devin keeps the green light to do whatever he wants.
We needed a 6th man triple threat guard before the lottery and we still need one. Harper looks overqualified for the job, 6th man role in his rookie year with 30mpg won't derail his development.

You don't need to be a natural point guard to run an nba offense. Speaking of Jimmy Butler he is keeping the warriors competitive in the second round missing the player who makes their hole team work. You need someone who can handle the ball, pass at a high level, and score. Doesn't matter if they are a point guard or not.

I think Harper ends up instantly unhappy. He is not going to have the ball much playing with Castle and Fox. The only way you get the ball in his hand is making him the backup point guard and no number 2 pick wants to come in and instantly have to come off the bench. Or you put Harper at the two and you move Castle to the bench and now Castle his pissed cause he is fresh off ROY but now ANOTHER guard with his skillset has leapfrogged him?

The more I think about it the more I start to feel like having Harper in SA would be a disaster :lol. Fox is like I haven't even signed my extension and you guys drafting my replacement wtf. Castle like I won ROY and I got to compete with someone else for touches now. Harper like I would be the number 1 pick in any other draft but I might have to play small forward AND be a backup point guard playing with the worst players on the team. And I haven't even mentioned Devin who aint never turned down a long two he could aimlessly spend 12 seconds dribbling into :lol.

Yeah...no, not the type of shit the youngest team in the nba with the second youngest coach in the nba needs to be dealing with. Draft Bailey and keep it moving. Drafting Harper is going to turn this team into a reality tv show. :lol

Harper is better than Bailey, but he not so much better than Bailey I'm willing to deal with some highly likely team friction with him until I get rid of 1 or maybe 2 of Fox, Castle, and Devin. That's doing to much for a guy who's numbers aren't that much better than Bailey's, who I really only have to send Sochan to the bench for, and that bum should be coming off the bench anyway.

[poopbox]

Klutch handed the Spurs Fox for some bench players, two fake draft picks, and two real picks years down the road. Spurs aren’t going to slap them in the face just because they have a “logjam” of elite/potentially elite guards.

It they don’t think all three can work, either Castle or Harper are extremely valuable chips — young premier talent — to swap for quality frontcourt players or other assets.

You could make the case that drafting Harper would be a slap in the face to Klutch.

"Hey thanks for all you did but we are drafting the guy to replace Fox so sure we will pay him now but win lose or draw he is out of here in year 3 maybe even year 2 if the price is right"

[LeBowen]

You don't need to be a natural point guard to run an nba offense. Speaking of Jimmy Butler he is keeping the warriors competitive in the second round missing the player who makes their hole team work. You need someone who can handle the ball, pass at a high level, and score. Doesn't matter if they are a point guard or not.

I think Harper ends up instantly unhappy. He is not going to have the ball much playing with Castle and Fox. The only way you get the ball in his hand is making him the backup point guard and no number 2 pick wants to come in and instantly have to come off the bench. Or you put Harper at the two and you move Castle to the bench and now Castle his pissed cause he is fresh off ROY but now ANOTHER guard with his skillset has leapfrogged him?

The more I think about it the more I start to feel like having Harper in SA would be a disaster :lol. Fox is like I haven't even signed my extension and you guys drafting my replacement wtf. Castle like I won ROY and I got to compete with someone else for touches now. Harper like I would be the number 1 pick in any other draft but I might have to play small forward AND be a backup point guard playing with the worst players on the team. And I haven't even mentioned Devin who aint never turned down a long two he could aimlessly spend 12 seconds dribbling into :lol.

Yeah...no, not the type of shit the youngest team in the nba with the second youngest coach in the nba needs to be dealing with. Draft Bailey and keep it moving. Drafting Harper is going to turn this team into a reality tv show. :lol

Harper is better than Bailey, but he not so much better than Bailey I'm willing to deal with some highly likely team friction with him until I get rid of 1 or maybe 2 of Fox, Castle, and Devin. That's doing to much for a guy who's numbers aren't that much better than Bailey's, who I really only have to send Sochan to the bench for, and that bum should be coming off the bench anyway.

I'm somewhat of a pessimist myself, but you're a complete doomer. :lol
I'm sure Harper's dad will tell him all about wasting his prime on garbage Clippers teams and that Wemby is this generation's MJ.

If we get rid of either Fox or Castle, we'd still need another point guard to fill the rotation.
Devin is an issue because he's not a good off the ball player and is undersized, Jeremy is an issue because he's a non-factor on offense.
Keldon is an issue because he's not a good player.
Those are my only concerns for this summer. Power of frienship crew needs to go.

[jjspur]

Just draft Harper at 2 and Sorber at 14. Then, find a way to get Johnni Broome later in the draft and we are set.

Fox, Harper
Castle, Champ
Vassell, Johnson, Ingram
Sochan, Broome, Mamu
Wemby, Sorber, Bassey

I like this plan a lot, just maybe someone more durable than Bassey.

[Poolboy5623]

Crazy how far this team has come in a year at the guard position.

[spursparker9]

How did we come from no PG to do lob city with Wemby to now too many ball handlers ??? :lol

[exstatic]

Wonder if the Spurs could get Klay from Dallas somehow. He signed with Dallas to win a title with Luka, not to babysit a rebuilding team.

He’s washed.

[exstatic]

If Harper is the max player we think he is and Castle is the other max player we think he is, wouldn’t that all be a problem with Fox and Wemby already having max contracts by then?

Dylan Harper won’t be a MAX player for four years, and Castle for three, hypothetically. Extensions are signed after year three, but kick in after year four. They’ll also likely be what I’ve heard referred to as Fun Max guys, 25% of the cap. In four years, before Harper hypothetically gets the Max and when Fox still has a year or two left on his extension, you flip him. No hard feelings at that point.

[exstatic]

At some point, if they all pan out, two of them have to go. I don't think 3 max players are feasible anymore with the CBA we currently have. The question is when do you do it to extract the best value.

I think only Fox would have to go away down the line. Unless Castle and Harper both turn into All NBA players, they will likely sign what is known as the Fun Max, 25% of the cap. Wemby will be at 35% as a SuperMax guy, and I think Fox will be at 30%, the veteran Max. Or Maybe Fox is also a Fun Max guy. I think you can carry 2 Fun Max guys and a SuperMax, at least for a while.

[baseline bum]

Funny thing is Bailey profiles as the type of player who rarely bust, the "I score alot in isolation forward". Now not saying you can build a winner around a player like that, but they almost always do what they are drafted to do, which is score.

Obviously if he is in SA he won't be asked to carry and offense and try to go 1 on 2 or 3 alot so his handle specifically in SA will mean almost nothing coming out the gate.

I think it's way more risky drafting Harper when he knows he won't have the ball in his hand much for possibly years in a row. Those type of players become malcontents pretty quick. I am 100% positive that if you polled every point guard in this draft and said "what team would you want to play for" all of the good ones would say "Not San Antonio":lol

Matter fact I can easily see some stories in a few weeks along the lines of "Harper questions is fit in San Antonio"

Circumstances matter and the Spurs have one of the worst circumstances in the league for a young point guard who thinks he's a franchise player, cause he won't even get a chance to prove it until some other players are moved off the team.

At 6'10" you might have sold me on his potential but not at 6'7". Not sure how he profiles as a player who rarely busts when scorers at the SF position usually have decent handles and thus good ability to get to the rim, of which Bailey has neither. The 69% at the line is highly concerning too for a guy who is supposed to be a shooter. He has been so wildly disappointing this year, almost on par with Traore. If the Spurs are keeping the pick I think you do it with the idea that if Harper develops according to plan you probably trade one of Fox or Castle in three years. The odd man out now should be Vassell.

[exstatic]

He's not leaving in FA just coming off that injury. So you'd be taking on two years.

This summer is his option, which he will pick up. He rolls off in July 2026, so just one season.

[Joseph Kony]

I think a three guard lineup can work, provided the Spurs get a legit defensive PF who can shoot to pair next to Wemby. A player like OG would be ideal (obviously not available though). 3 big guards plus two stud defensive players in the front court should be playable together. we just have to hope that Castle and Harper can develop their three point shot. guess we can hold out hope that Sochan magically develops a three point shot :lol

I'm fine with the spurs going all in for Giannis, but honestly with the ability to take a stud like Harper I think the best option may be letting the Castle/Harper/Wemby trio grow together and using our assets to fill out the roster with depth. give that trio a few vets who can D up and they're playoff bound. Fox's future on the team becomes a little more hazy though

[baseline bum]

At some point, if they all pan out, two of them have to go. I don't think 3 max players are feasible anymore with the CBA we currently have. The question is when do you do it to extract the best value.

If Castle and Harper really pan out they're probably 25% max salaries on that second contract while Wemby is a 30% supermax. Thankfully not eligible for the 35% supermax until his third contract. Two 25s and a 30 can be carried, especially with 10% annual bumps to the cap. But it's why I expect Fox would be traded in three years if Castle and Harper both show they're worthy of max deals. He will still have good trade value at 31 too most likely. And if one of Castle or Harper isn't a max player by the time they're up for their second contract you just keep Fox. The fact that Giannis will be on a 35% supermax is the biggest thing dissuading me from trading Harper for him.

[exstatic]

Crazy how far this team has come in a year at the guard position.

It was always going to happen, one way or another. Getting Fox and #2 in a short period of time certainly turbocharged it.

[mo7888]

I think only Fox would have to go away down the line. Unless Castle and Harper both turn into All NBA players, they will likely sign what is known as the Fun Max, 25% of the cap. Wemby will be at 35% as a SuperMax guy, and I think Fox will be at 30%, the veteran Max. Or Maybe Fox is also a Fun Max guy. I think you can carry 2 Fun Max guys and a SuperMax, at least for a while.

That's possible, but i expect one of them, Harper most likely, to be All NBA

[baseline bum]

I think only Fox would have to go away down the line. Unless Castle and Harper both turn into All NBA players, they will likely sign what is known as the Fun Max, 25% of the cap. Wemby will be at 35% as a SuperMax guy, and I think Fox will be at 30%, the veteran Max. Or Maybe Fox is also a Fun Max guy. I think you can carry 2 Fun Max guys and a SuperMax, at least for a while.

Nah supermax is 30% of the cap on a second contract thankfully.

[baseline bum]

That's possible, but i expect one of them, Harper most likely, to be All NBA

That's a good problem to have. Then Fox is a huge expiring or maybe you trade Castle when Harper is due a 30% max.

[mo7888]

That's a good problem to have. Then Fox is a huge expiring or maybe you trade Castle when Harper is due a 30% max.

True dat...

[Mugen]

Going from Point Sochan & Blake Wesley to De'Aron Fox & Dylan Harper in a season...

I prayed for times like these tbh :lol

[LeBowen]

Going from Point Sochan & Blake Wesley to De'Aron Fox & Dylan Harper in a season...

I prayed for times like these tbh :lol

Those kids will have to get over themselves and wait for their turn.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/ku43uqZIO7kAAAAd/devin-vassell-vassell.gif

[baseline bum]

Going from Point Sochan & Blake Wesley to De'Aron Fox & Dylan Harper in a season...

I prayed for times like these tbh :lol

Don't forget Point Bran Ham

[Mugen]

Don't forget Point Bran Ham

I'm trying my best tbh.

[vy65]

You don't need to be a natural point guard to run an nba offense. Speaking of Jimmy Butler he is keeping the warriors competitive in the second round missing the player who makes their hole team work. You need someone who can handle the ball, pass at a high level, and score. Doesn't matter if they are a point guard or not.

I think Harper ends up instantly unhappy. He is not going to have the ball much playing with Castle and Fox. The only way you get the ball in his hand is making him the backup point guard and no number 2 pick wants to come in and instantly have to come off the bench. Or you put Harper at the two and you move Castle to the bench and now Castle his pissed cause he is fresh off ROY but now ANOTHER guard with his skillset has leapfrogged him?

The more I think about it the more I start to feel like having Harper in SA would be a disaster :lol. Fox is like I haven't even signed my extension and you guys drafting my replacement wtf. Castle like I won ROY and I got to compete with someone else for touches now. Harper like I would be the number 1 pick in any other draft but I might have to play small forward AND be a backup point guard playing with the worst players on the team. And I haven't even mentioned Devin who aint never turned down a long two he could aimlessly spend 12 seconds dribbling into :lol.

Yeah...no, not the type of shit the youngest team in the nba with the second youngest coach in the nba needs to be dealing with. Draft Bailey and keep it moving. Drafting Harper is going to turn this team into a reality tv show. :lol

Harper is better than Bailey, but he not so much better than Bailey I'm willing to deal with some highly likely team friction with him until I get rid of 1 or maybe 2 of Fox, Castle, and Devin. That's doing to much for a guy who's numbers aren't that much better than Bailey's, who I really only have to send Sochan to the bench for, and that bum should be coming off the bench anyway.

Harper and Castle have the ability to spend 10-15 years of their career playing with someone who could go down as the best player ever. I think they can stomach coming off the bench for a couple years, particularly when Manu Ginobili is attending practice

[vy65]

Giannis does not make sense for a number of reasons, the least of which is the salary nightmare we'd face in a couple of years. The prospect of two, potentially elite slashing combo guards with Wemby is really enticing. The team isn't ready for contention when they haven't been in the playoffs for 6 years. Plus, keeping Harper is in line with the not skipping steps. The best approach would be to keep adding young talent along with vets who can show them how to play. You take Harper and have either him or Castle fill in the super 6th man role. I also really like the idea of brining KD in; he's a John Collins on steroids type who might be able to be salary controlled after his current salary is up (the sell to him being that he can be a vet on a contending team in the twilight of his career). I don't know what his market would be like, but I'd do some version of 14+Keldon+Devin/Sochan+1 other good FRP+however many 2RP

Fox/Harper/Blake or CP3
Castle/Harper/Bran Ham
HB/JC/SRP
KD/HB
Wemby/KD

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Potential trade:

Walker Kessler + Pick 5OA for Pick 2OA. Who says no, San Antonio or Utah?

[baseline bum]

Wonder if the Spurs could get Klay from Dallas somehow. He signed with Dallas to win a title with Luka, not to babysit a rebuilding team.

Dallas is back now. Go out and sign a warm body at PG with their MLE and they're probably a low end playoff team if Davis can stay healthy.

[Degoat]

Potential trade:

Walker Kessler + Pick 5OA for Pick 2OA. Who says no, San Antonio or Utah?

Honestly think the spurs say no, there’s a pretty big drop imo after pick 3

[baseline bum]

Potential trade:

Walker Kessler + Pick 5OA for Pick 2OA. Who says no, San Antonio or Utah?

Spurs say hell fucking no

[spurraider21]

I know Dallas has to take Flagg, to appease the fan base, but

Mavs - Giannis
Spurs - #1, PJ Washington
Bucks - #2, #14, Vassell, Gafford, multi SRPs.

Ok, I just run it, and there is no way to do it. Dallas cannot absorb Giannis contract, they would have to trade Washingon, Gafford, Klay, Christie and more, re-sign Irving to lower cap hit from 42 to like 30, which would mean he would need to sign 150/5 type of deal, at age 33 after ACL tear.
the problem with these 3 team proposals is that a resetting milwaukee would not opt for Harper over Flagg

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Spurs say hell fucking no

Don't you think the Spurs would be a better team with Walker Kessler, Tre Johnson, + 14OA (Fleming, Gonzales,) than Harper and 14OA (Fleming, Gonzales, Sorber, Newell)

[mo7888]

Don't you think the Spurs would be a better team with Walker Kessler, Tre Johnson, + 14OA (Fleming, Gonzales,) than Harper and 14OA (Fleming, Gonzales, Sorber, Newell)

Nope...not even remotely

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Don't you think the Spurs would be a better team with Walker Kessler, Tre Johnson, + 14OA (Fleming, Gonzales,) than Harper and 14OA (Fleming, Gonzales, Sorber, Newell)

Hell no.

[Mal]

the problem with these 3 team proposals is that a resetting milwaukee would not opt for Harper over Flagg

But they have worst negotation position. Mavs gets the best player, Spurs get 2nd best player but best overall fit, Bucks get shitload of assets, which are not that bad. 2x1st with 2OA, Vassell and Gafford in mid 20s - worth 1st each. And then either mutliple 2nds or other minor assets, like swaps or some Mavs players like Christie or Marshall

But it cant happen, since Mavs are too close to those approns.

[spurraider21]

But they have worst negotation position. Mavs gets the best player, Spurs get 2nd best player but best overall fit, Bucks get shitload of assets, which are not that bad. 2x1st with 2OA, Vassell and Gafford in mid 20s - worth 1st each. And then either mutliple 2nds or other minor assets, like swaps or some Mavs players like Christie or Marshall

But it cant happen, since Mavs are too close to those approns.
the team with giannis does not have the worst negotiating position, sorry.

if your own example the only thing the mavs get back is giannis, and they were willing to move #1, PJ Washington, Gafford. thats the deal right there. bucks get Flagg/PJ/Gafford and maybe a SRP or two, and mavs get giannis.

whats the incentive to include the spurs?

[mo7888]

the team with giannis does not have the worst negotiating position, sorry.

if your own example the only thing the mavs get back is giannis, and they were willing to move #1, PJ Washington, Gafford. thats the deal right there. bucks get Flagg/PJ/Gafford and maybe a SRP or two, and mavs get giannis.

whats the incentive to include the spurs?

The incentive is that the Fallas package isn't enough without more 1sts.

[spurraider21]

The incentive is that the Fallas package isn't enough without more 1sts.
your package has the bucks choosing Harper, 14, and Vassell, over Flagg and PJ Washington.

doesnt make sense at all imo

[Baam]

Go get both Trey Murphy and Herb Jones with that pick instead of getting a malcontent who will pout.

Wemby
Murphy
Jones
Castle
Fox

You finally have a fun two-way 5. Wemby doesn't have to wait 3 years for Harper to get good too and the team is still young enough...

I don't like Fox for the record but gotta make the best of it.

[Extra Stout]

Don't you think the Spurs would be a better team with Walker Kessler, Tre Johnson, + 14OA (Fleming, Gonzales,) than Harper and 14OA (Fleming, Gonzales, Sorber, Newell)
Which is better, having James Harden, or having Rip Hamilton and a backup center?

[Baam]

Which is better, having James Harden, or having Rip Hamilton and a backup center?

They couldn't keep Harden, could never give him the role he deserved. Like the Spurs won't be able to with Harper.

[The Truth #6]

I'm totally fine not trading Fox right now. But trading Harper seems crazy to me. What a gift. I do see Harper and Castle as our backcourt of the future, though.

Next year will be exciting, chaotic, and this place will have unlimited situations to complain about. So many options. Mitch will try to make it all work.

How to move on from Devin and his god awful contract just got a lot more important in my opinion.

[mo7888]

your package has the bucks choosing Harper, 14, and Vassell, over Flagg and PJ Washington.

doesnt make sense at all imo

That's not my package.

[spurraider21]

That's not my package.
thats the difference between the packages. in both scenarios they are getting Gafford and SRPs

[montgod]

They couldn't keep Harden, could never give him the role he deserved. Like the Spurs won't be able to with Harper.

Good point, but Spurs ran CP, Castle/Vassell, and Fox at the same time last year. Could easily see them do the same with Harper to replace CP and unload Vassell for a SF/PF.

[mo7888]

thats the difference between the packages. in both scenarios they are getting Gafford and SRPs

I only pointed out that Dallas and Milwaukee are unlikely to get a deal for Flagg without a 3rd team. Dallas doesn't have the assets, but we do. We'd obviously have to add capital over 2+14, but that's the incentive for them taking Harper over Flagg.

[daslicer]

This is a situation where I'm glad not to be the GM because I would have a hard time deciding what to do. It's a tough decision going either way on whether to keep the pick or trade it.

[Mal]

the team with giannis does not have the worst negotiating position, sorry.

if your own example the only thing the mavs get back is giannis, and they were willing to move #1, PJ Washington, Gafford. thats the deal right there. bucks get Flagg/PJ/Gafford and maybe a SRP or two, and mavs get giannis.

whats the incentive to include the spurs?

Of course I tried to include Spurs to explore getting Flagg scenario, we are on Spurs forum.

[spurraider21]

I only pointed out that Dallas and Milwaukee are unlikely to get a deal for Flagg without a 3rd team. Dallas doesn't have the assets, but we do. We'd obviously have to add capital over 2+14, but that's the incentive for them taking Harper over Flagg.
yeah and im saying we arent adding assets to this (at least not more than we are getting back via Flagg)

you say the spurs need to be included to add value to milwaukee but the spurs verison of your deal gives milwaukee even less value than just a straight up deal with the mavs

[montgod]

This is a situation where I'm glad not to be the GM because I would have a hard time deciding what to do. It's a tough decision going either way on whether to keep the pick or trade it.

Same here. I feel like the combine and interview's might steer them to not wanting to trade.

[John B]

Damn it’s a massive improvement from Tre/Vassell/Keldon/Sochan/Collins line-up not too long ago. Good grief

[mo7888]

yeah and im saying we arent adding assets to this (at least not more than we are getting back via Flagg)

you say the spurs need to be included to add value to milwaukee but the spurs verison of your deal gives milwaukee even less value than just a straight up deal with the mavs

The version of my deal, which i haven't given yet, would be Devin + Keldon + 2+ 14 + Atlanta 27 or our 26 with attached pick swap.

[baseline bum]

Don't you think the Spurs would be a better team with Walker Kessler, Tre Johnson, + 14OA (Fleming, Gonzales,) than Harper and 14OA (Fleming, Gonzales, Sorber, Newell)

No, that's like saying don't you think the Spurs would have been a better team with Jamal Magloire instead of Manu because they already had Parker and Stephen Jackson.

[baseline bum]

They couldn't keep Harden, could never give him the role he deserved. Like the Spurs won't be able to with Harper.

They couldn't keep Harden because they decided to pay Kendrick Perkins instead and tried to lowball Harden. Harden said he was fine being a sixth man but then OKC wanted to pay him like one instead of paying his market value.

[Joseph Kony]

Damn it’s a massive improvement from Tre/Vassell/Keldon/Sochan/Collins line-up not too long ago. Good grief

:vomit:

those were dark times

[spurraider21]

The version of my deal, which i haven't given yet, would be Devin + Keldon + 2+ 14 + Atlanta 27 or our 26 with attached pick swap.
ah fuck my bad, i thought i was still responding to Mal who gave the proposal lol

[mo7888]

ah fuck my bad, i thought i was still responding to Mal who gave the proposal lol

No worries...

[Ddm5]

If Hornets said, we get 4 and an unprotected or Top 1 protected 2027 pick swap for 2, would you consider it?

[spurraider21]

If Hornets said, we get 4 and an unprotected or Top 1 protected 2027 pick swap for 2, would you consider it?
no

[scott]

If Harper is the max player we think he is and Castle is the other max player we think he is, wouldn’t that all be a problem with Fox and Wemby already having max contracts by then?

IMO, we just move off of Fox before Harper's rookie extension kicks in (which lines up pretty nicely anyway)

[Dejounte]

IMO, we just move off of Fox before Harper's rookie extension kicks in (which lines up pretty nicely anyway)


Would it be possible to keep him if he agrees to a pay cut?

[spurraider21]

IMO, we just move off of Fox before Harper's rookie extension kicks in (which lines up pretty nicely anyway)
yep. we ride Fox during his prime. as good as Castle was and Harper should be, Fox is currently an all star caliber player who for the last few years has been able to sleepwalk to an efficient 25ppg while creating events on defense.

we then get a partial refund for him when Harper/Castle are ready to take over

[DPG21920]

Klutch handed the Spurs Fox for some bench players, two fake draft picks, and two real picks years down the road. Spurs aren’t going to slap them in the face just because they have a “logjam” of elite/potentially elite guards.

It they don’t think all three can work, either Castle or Harper are extremely valuable chips — young premier talent — to swap for quality frontcourt players or other assets.

Spurs just gave up pick 12 and still have SA 27 and MIN31 to go. It was not some steal even if it was solid value due to not giving up any meaningful players and dumping a bad deal in Collins.

[scott]

He's not leaving in FA just coming off that injury. So you'd be taking on two years.

He doesn't have a second year of a player option - we could just simply renounce him next summer. No need to take on a second year of him.

[TheDoctor]

I’d say, take Harper at #2, and negotiate a trade package consisting of Dev, Keldon, and #14 for a big or combo forward. I’d like Sochan in my playoff team tbh.

[RC_Drunkford]

I hope we draft Fleming or Bryant with 14 and don't trade that pick. Package Keldon and a bunch of 2nds for a PF.

[LeBowen]

Would it be possible to keep him if he agrees to a pay cut?

Fox has one year left, 25-26 season.
Offer him a 3+1 extension after that, player option after 28-29 season.
Harper's extension kicks in 29-30 season.

Fox would earn max money in age 29, 30, 31 seasons and then either get traded or take a paycut.
It will all depend on how things play out, if we're a legit contender or even win a ring, I'm sure he'd be happy to stay.

[scott]

Damn it’s a massive improvement from Tre/Vassell/Keldon/Sochan/Collins line-up not too long ago. Good grief

LOL @ when that was considered our young core

[LkrFan]

Oh yeah I didn't include that one:

4. Trade for Giannis. I don't think this is happening. He's 30 years old and I don't see the Spurs burning a long-term asset in favor of a few years.

Hope not! :lol

[scott]

Fox has one year left, 25-26 season.
Offer him a 3+1 extension after that, player option after 28-29 season.
Harper's extension kicks in 29-30 season.

Fox would earn max money in age 29, 30, 31 seasons and then either get traded or take a paycut.
It will all depend on how things play out, if we're a legit contender or even win a ring, I'm sure he'd be happy to stay.

Yeah the 3+1 is what I was thinking just came into play a lot more than before. The question will be whether Fox wants to bet on himself for a chance at that 10-year vet 35% max (my guess is that he wouldn't, because he'll know he'll be 31).

But the Spurs have options... Fox is not a problem here.

[Leetonidas]

LOL @ when that was considered our young core

Don't forget Primo :lmao

[CGD]

Potential trade:

Walker Kessler + Pick 5OA for Pick 2OA. Who says no, San Antonio or Utah?

GTFO of here with this garbage lol

[scott]

For those who like Bailey's archetype... I think there is close to a zero % chance the Spurs take Ace. If you like Ace, just trade #2 and Devin for TMIII and #7, since TMIII is the 95% outcome of Ace Bailey anyway.

(For the record, I would need Herb added in to consider this deal)

[Poolboy5623]

The amount of Spurs fans out there thinking the Mavs are just going to trade #1 to the Spurs is wild lol

[rjv]

I hope we draft Fleming or Bryant with 14 and don't trade that pick. Package Keldon and a bunch of 2nds for a PF.

fleming would be nice but i'd also be okay with mcneeley.

[RC_Drunkford]

LOL @ when that was considered our young core

the first one was Murray/White/Walker/Keldon/Lyles :lol

[Robz4000]

Mavs officially won't entertain trade offers for Flagg.

[John B]

The amount of Spurs fans out there thinking the Mavs are just going to trade #1 to the Spurs is wild lol

On paper, Dylan is ideal if Mavs will try to get Giannis to team-up with AD. AD/Giannis/Dylan. Kyrie is out maybe the whole of next year with that ACL injury and AD is not getting younger. If Spurs can help facilitate and getting Flagg, why not?

But I’m still for keeping Dylan, run that 3-guards offense, draft defensive stretch Fleming and keep the pool of future FRP’s and swaps coming to fortify that Castle/Wemby/Dylan trio.

[LeBowen]

Mavs officially won't entertain trade offers for Flagg.

He'll be the next KG, tbh.
Mavs won't be relevant after 2027, he'll be stuck on treadmill rosters and Nico will bail.

[spurraider21]

Mavs officially won't entertain trade offers for Flagg.
ehh, if you're getting that from where im getting it this is all coming from Rich Paul on McAfees show saying "i dont think a trade will happen"

nothing official about it

with that said, i am virtually 99.9% sure this will be the outcome anyway

[Manu&Duncan fan]

The version of my deal, which i haven't given yet, would be Devin + Keldon + 2+ 14 + Atlanta 27 or our 26 with attached pick swap.

This is this a good enough offer that Buck will consider.

It takes "cooper not want to play for Bucks or Dallas" to happen.

[SpurSpike]

Flagg didn't seem too excited that Dallas got the #1 pick, its not too late if he wants to control his destiny! If he really wanted to be a Spur he could simply tell Mavericks not to draft him because he doesn't like how they treated Luka and he would fall to the spurs!

[Mr. Body]

Mavs officially won't entertain trade offers for Flagg.

That's what anyone would say at this point.

Regardless they'll likely keep him.

[Spurs Brazil]

https://x.com/DraftExpress/status/1922322043166466154

[Poolboy5623]

On paper, Dylan is ideal if Mavs will try to get Giannis to team-up with AD. AD/Giannis/Dylan. Kyrie is out maybe the whole of next year with that ACL injury and AD is not getting younger. If Spurs can help facilitate and getting Flagg, why not?

But I’m still for keeping Dylan, run that 3-guards offense, draft defensive stretch Fleming and keep the pool of future FRP’s and swaps coming to fortify that Castle/Wemby/Dylan trio.

Dallas just dug themselves out of the Luka hole (with a lot of luck). There is NO CHANCE they now take Cooper Flag and gift him to SA. Come on, use your head..

[Robz4000]

ehh, if you're getting that from where im getting it this is all coming from Rich Paul on McAfees show saying "i dont think a trade will happen"

nothing official about it

with that said, i am virtually 99.9% sure this will be the outcome anyway

Tim Macmahon tbh

[couchman]

The dropoff after Harper is steep enough that I would need at least 2 FRPs to consider moving down at all, even a couple of spots.

[spurraider21]

Tim Macmahon tbh
thats better tbh

[BacktoBasics]

This is this a good enough offer that Buck will consider.

It takes "cooper not want to play for Bucks or Dallas" to happen.

I would never do this deal. Totally unnecessary. Those 3 picks a swap and Vassell and Keldon would return far greater than we'd get from one player. All without stripping us of all our leverage.

[John B]

Dallas just dug themselves out of the Luka hole (with a lot of luck). There is NO CHANCE they now take Cooper Flag and gift him to SA. Come on, use your head..

It’s not unlikely. They have two aging AS in AD and Kyrie. Maybe pickup a ring with Giannis/AD and still left with a young stud Dylan as Kyrie replacement. And have another team (Spurs) shoulder some of the cost? Now who’s not using his head?

[Poolboy5623]

It’s not unlikely. They have two aging AS in AD and Kyrie. Maybe pickup a ring with Giannis/AD and still left with a young stud Dylan as Kyrie replacement. And have another team (Spurs) shoulder some of the cost? Now who’s not using his head?

lol you're still not using it. The Spurs had their shot at FLagg and barely missed. Its not happening.

[Obstructed_View]

Dallas is back now. Go out and sign a warm body at PG with their MLE and they're probably a low end playoff team if Davis can stay healthy.
Yeah, that's true, but he signed with Dallas for more than that. Time will tell.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

Flagg didn't seem too excited that Dallas got the #1 pick, its not too late if he wants to control his destiny! If he really wanted to be a Spur he could simply tell Mavericks not to draft him because he doesn't like how they treated Luka and he would fall to the spurs!

Yes, This can still happen, even though the chance is small.

Out of respect to the Basketball God, Spurs won't call to Shop #2 first.

But, if Cooper tells Dallas not to draft him, Dallas and Spurs can work this out.

Bottom line: Harper is not that far beneath Flagg. PLus some future picks.

[Ice009]

#2 Strategy- Pick Dylan Harper and let the chips fall where they may.
His dad was one of the greatest defensive guards in the league. So good, that MJ insisted he be his teammate because he didn't like going against him in the playoffs.
Dylan's potential is somewhere between Shai and Harden with some untapped defensive prowess that the Spurs will harness. AND, are you sitting down SpursTalk? Harper will eventually make Vassell redundant unless he takes the role of spot-up shooter.

Wemby, Fox, Castle and Harper would be a lot to contend with for most teams. Even with Barnes at the 4, there's always going to be someone open. That could become a very dynamic offensive machine and get Wemby freed up to reach his historic potential. Defensively, we need some size and muscle.

Did MJ really say that? Because if so, Harper was on the Clippers when the Bulls were making all their Championship runs so Jordan never would have had to face him in the playoffs.



1. Spurs need to avoid trading the wrong player, sort of like how OKC was left with Russell Westbrook.

2. To me, Fox is the odd man out given the positional versatility they desire. Trade Fox, not all this other nonsense. Package him with Devin, if possible, and get quality players that fit around our young backcourt and Wemby.

Yet another person, wow. We need to start a thread as there is simply too many people that don't understand the implications of trading Fox. Fox forced his team to trade him here. You just cannot burn that bridge with agents and potential players down the line that might also want to be traded to the Spurs.

Unless we can get a great offer/package for the number 2 pick, I am now thinking we should take Harper. With Harper, the Spurs could potentially have a TP (Fox), Manu (Harper) and a combination of the two (Castle). If they all pan out, that is super enticing to me. I'm excited about the possibilities of those three. I'm not saying these guys are as good or better (so no need to jump on me about the Manu comparisons), but they have the potential to be up there with those guys if they reach their potential.

Also, how many people that are advocating for Bailey, how many of you have watched him play extensively?


On paper, Dylan is ideal if Mavs will try to get Giannis to team-up with AD. AD/Giannis/Dylan. Kyrie is out maybe the whole of next year with that ACL injury and AD is not getting younger. If Spurs can help facilitate and getting Flagg, why not?

But I’m still for keeping Dylan, run that 3-guards offense, draft defensive stretch Fleming and keep the pool of future FRP’s and swaps coming to fortify that Castle/Wemby/Dylan trio.

What players are Milwaukee going to get in that trade scenario? Spurs get Flagg, Mavs get Harper and Giannis. Milwaukee ain't trying to help two teams build a Championship roster for some picks that may not pan out.

[benefactor]

My emotional knee jerk response was go for Giannis, but i'm good with running the three guard lineup. Like others have said, we are apparently entering a brave new world where the spurs have almost too many ball handlers lol

[100%duncan]

We're not trading Fox because we want Wemby to start winning now, aside from the obvious relationship/PR issues.

Castle and Harper are both ways away from being the player that Fox is right now.

[scott]

Did MJ really say that? Because if so, Harper was on the Clippers when the Bulls were making all their Championship runs so Jordan never would have had to face him in the playoffs.





The Bulls did play Harper and CLE in the first round of the playoffs in 1988 and 1989 and both series went to 5 games (back when the first round was 5 games). That might have been the source of that.

[dn0774]

This discussion is enjoyable, that said the obvious answer is obvious; take Harper. The front office should of course do it due diligence and bring in a bunch of guys for workouts, interviews etc, but if nothing crazy is observed Harper should be the pick. Harper can come off bench if need be to begin with or start the 3 guards, idc.

If workouts/interviews somehow reveal something concerning about Harper, you don't take another guy with 2...you trade down from 2. Dallas won't give up 1, gutting picks/roster for Giannis isn't even close to a sure thing ring or 2 so not worth it either.

[Ice009]

The Bulls did play Harper and CLE in the first round of the playoffs in 1988 and 1989 and both series went to 5 games (back when the first round was 5 games). That might have been the source of that.

I did think of back when he was in Cleveland, but the poster said Jordan told the Bulls to get him there, and he didn't get there until '95 when he was in the West. So that timeline doesn't match up "His dad was one of the greatest defensive guards in the league. So good, that MJ insisted he be his teammate because he didn't like going against him in the playoffs." If MJ said this in '89 and then it happened 5 years later, he wasn't going against him those 5 years. That's why it didn't make sense to me. Maybe Jordan did say it in '89 and the Bulls got him there years later because they remembered Jordan wanted him, but he wasn't in Jordan's way at the time they got him is all I'm saying.

[scott]

This discussion is enjoyable, that said the obvious answer is obvious; take Harper. The front office should of course do it due diligence and bring in a bunch of guys for workouts, interviews etc, but if nothing crazy is observed Harper should be the pick. Harper can come off bench if need be to begin with or start the 3 guards, idc.

If workouts/interviews somehow reveal something concerning about Harper, you don't take another guy with 2...you trade down from 2. Dallas won't give up 1, gutting picks/roster for Giannis isn't even close to a sure thing ring or 2 so not worth it either.

The Spurs just went the most of last season Post-Fox preferring to start 3 guards with CP3/Fox/Vassell and then CP3/Castle/Vassell... I think both Castle and Harper are more capable of work at the 3 than Devin (except Devin is a better shooter), so I'm not too worried about it.

[scott]

I did think of back when he was in Cleveland, but the poster said Jordan told the Bulls to get him there, and he didn't get there until '95 when he was in the West. So that timeline doesn't match up "His dad was one of the greatest defensive guards in the league. So good, that MJ insisted he be his teammate because he didn't like going against him in the playoffs." If MJ said this in '89 and then it happened 5 years later, he wasn't going against him those 5 years. That's why it didn't make sense to me. Maybe Jordan did say it in '89 and the Bulls got him there years later because they remembered Jordan wanted him, but he wasn't in Jordan's way at the time they got him is all I'm saying.

You might be taking things too literally.

Could have been a situation where when Harper was Free Agent in 94, Jordan told the team "get this guy, I hated going against him in the playoffs"

[exstatic]

That's possible, but i expect one of them, Harper most likely, to be All NBA

That’s a good problem, first world type, to have. Not sure it will happen on his rookie deal, though, and that when the SuperMax would be a problem.

I expect Fox to make another All NBA team in the next year or two.

[exstatic]

Don't forget Point Bran Ham

If he brought the ball up the floor in the 4th, I knew Pop was dumping that particular game.

[John B]

Did MJ really say that? Because if so, Harper was on the Clippers when the Bulls were making all their Championship runs so Jordan never would have had to face him in the playoffs.


Yet another person, wow. We need to start a thread as there is simply too many people that don't understand the implications of trading Fox. Fox forced his team to trade him here. You just cannot burn that bridge with agents and potential players down the line that might also want to be traded to the Spurs.

Unless we can get a great offer/package for the number 2 pick, I am now thinking we should take Harper. With Harper, the Spurs could potentially have a TP (Fox), Manu (Harper) and a combination of the two (Castle). If they all pan out, that is super enticing to me. I'm excited about the possibilities of those three. I'm not saying these guys are as good or better (so no need to jump on me about the Manu comparisons), but they have the potential to be up there with those guys if they reach their potential.

Also, how many people that are advocating for Bailey, how many of you have watched him play extensively?



What players are Milwaukee going to get in that trade scenario? Spurs get Flagg, Mavs get Harper and Giannis. Milwaukee ain't trying to help two teams build a Championship roster for some picks that may not pan out.

Ron Harper was with CLE in 1986-89, where CHI defeated them in 1988 and 1989. So yeah they would’ve met in the Eastern Conference playoffs.

The Spurs can send Vassell, Sochan etc plus picks. It’s doable. But I’m for keeping Dylan and run with it.

[DAF86]

Imma be honest, I really didn't pay much attention to Harper and Bailey because I never thought the Spurs were gonna pick so high. Is the difference really that big that we just have to take Dylan over Ace despite the clear disadvantage in fit? I read somewhere that Ace Bailey actually had a higher net rating than Harper in their team.

Let's say Harper has all-star ceiling and Bailey high end role playing ceiling. Wouldn't be better to trade down and get the player that fits better plus additional assets?

Many times, a high end role player that fits is way more valuable than an all-star that doesn't fit. For example, would you rather draft a Trae Young or an Eric Gordon? (I'm not comparing Dylan and Ace to Trae and Eric, just presenting a scenario).

[Mr. Body]

Imma be honest, I really didn't pay much attention to Harper and Bailey because I never thought the Spurs were gonna pick so high. Is the difference really that big that we just have to take Dylan over Ace despite the clear disadvantage in fit? I read somewhere that Ace Bailey actually had a higher net rating than Harper in their team.

Let's say Harper has all-star ceiling and Bailey high end role playing ceiling. Wouldn't be better to trade down and get the player that fits better plus additional assets?

Many times, a high end role player that fits is way more valuable than an all-star that doesn't fit. For example, would you rather draft a Trae Young or an Eric Gordon? (I'm not comparing Dylan and Ace to Trae and Eric).

There's no universe where I'd take Ace Bailey over Dylan Harper. Bailey isn't absolutely horrible, but he's very problematic as an individual player, much less one in the Spurs' system. Don't draft according to position, get the good player.

[DAF86]

On paper, Ace Bailey has almost all the things we are needing: length, athleticism, defense, shooting.

The worrisome part is the doubts about his BBIQ, this team can't keep stacking up low IQ basketball players.

[spurraider21]

Imma be honest, I really didn't pay much attention to Harper and Bailey because I never thought the Spurs were gonna pick so high. Is the difference really that big that we just have to take Dylan over Ace despite the clear disadvantage in fit? I read somewhere that Ace Bailey actually had a higher net rating than Harper in their team.
yeah... the difference is notable. remember that coming into the season, Bailey was the consensus #2 to Flagg. bailey had a lot of eyes on him, so its not like he'd gone unnoticed or flown under the radar. as people were watching Rutgers mainly to follow Ace, it became more and more clear that Harper was just the better player.

i still like Ace a lot. he's #3 on my board ahead of VJ, and i think he is a clear, seamless fit given his profile and skill set. but i do think its a clear tier gap between Harper and Bailey, such that i wouldnt consider picking him over dylan


Let's say Harper has all-star ceiling and Bailey high end role playing ceiling. Wouldn't be better to trade down and get the player that fits better plus additional assets?

Many times, a high end role player that fits is way more valuable than an all-star that doesn't fit. For example, would you rather draft a Trae Young or an Eric Gordon? (I'm not comparing Dylan and Ace to Trae and Eric).
eh. you dont trade stars for role players, so you also shouldnt trade a projected star for a projected role player. it would have to be significant assets to cough up #2 this year.

[scott]

Imma be honest, I really didn't pay much attention to Harper and Bailey because I never thought the Spurs were gonna pick so high. Is the difference really that big that we just have to take Dylan over Ace despite the clear disadvantage in fit? I read somewhere that Ace Bailey actually had a higher net rating than Harper in their team.

Let's say Harper has all-star ceiling and Bailey high end role playing ceiling. Wouldn't be better to trade down and get the player that fits better plus additional assets?

Many times, a high end role player that fits is way more valuable than an all-star that doesn't fit. For example, would you rather draft a Trae Young or an Eric Gordon? (I'm not comparing Dylan and Ace to Trae and Eric, just presenting a scenario).

I hate to sound like a broken record (because I've replied this before to others) but if the Bailey archetype is really that much more preferred over Harper... then I think you are best off just trying to get #7 and TMIII from NOP, since TMIII is the 95th percentile outcome of Ace Bailey.

[Joseph Kony]

On paper, Ace Bailey has almost all the things we are needing: length, athleticism, defense, shooting.

The worrisome part is the doubts about his BBIQ, this team can't keep stacking up low IQ basketball players.
Spurs arent good enough yet to draft for fit imo. they should take BPA and it seems that is easily Harper. take him and worry about the fit later

[exstatic]

They couldn't keep Harden, could never give him the role he deserved. Like the Spurs won't be able to with Harper.

That was never the issue. Their cheap ass owner didn’t want to pay even $1 of luxury tax, so they shipped Harden out for nothing over about $2M a season.

[ginobilized]

[QUOTE=Ice009;11242096]Did MJ really say that? Because if so, Harper was on the Clippers when the Bulls were making all their Championship runs so Jordan never would have had to face him in the playoffs.

First off, I'm remembering this from around 30 years ago or more. I may have killed some brain cells before and after this.

Secondly, Harper played against Jordan in the playoffs when he was in Cleveland. MJ's verbiage might have been more that he didn't want to face him in a head-to-head matchup in the playoffs or that he knew what kind of defender Harper was from playing against him in the playoffs. Maybe Harper was a free agent at the time? Who knows?
I was paraphrasing this from decades ago.

Thirdly, the whole point is that we should draft Dylan Harper. He is descended from NBA greatness, especially on the defensive end.

[mudyez]

Imma be honest, I really didn't pay much attention to Harper and Bailey because I never thought the Spurs were gonna pick so high. Is the difference really that big that we just have to take Dylan over Ace despite the clear disadvantage in fit? I read somewhere that Ace Bailey actually had a higher net rating than Harper in their team.

Let's say Harper has all-star ceiling and Bailey high end role playing ceiling. Wouldn't be better to trade down and get the player that fits better plus additional assets?

Many times, a high end role player that fits is way more valuable than an all-star that doesn't fit. For example, would you rather draft a Trae Young or an Eric Gordon? (I'm not comparing Dylan and Ace to Trae and Eric, just presenting a scenario).

He is...but Spurs should still listen to teams trying to move up (while not desperately shopping the pick around...as the three players can work together)

A TM3+Herb+#7 package would be interesting.
Brandon Miller+#4 (then probably taking Edgecombe) could do it as well.
Coulibaly+Sarr+#6 is the third enticing trade down proposal.

...not saying these other teams want to make those deals, but if they view Harper as that upcoming star player, they might be willing to do it (while receiving a player or two back to make salarys work).

But after all these trades could still go down as "Wtf were the Spurs thinking back in '25...Harper is in the MVP conversation now."

[Ice009]

[QUOTE=Ice009;11242096]Did MJ really say that? Because if so, Harper was on the Clippers when the Bulls were making all their Championship runs so Jordan never would have had to face him in the playoffs.

First off, I'm remembering this from around 30 years ago or more. I may have killed some brain cells before and after this.

Secondly, Harper played against Jordan in the playoffs when he was in Cleveland. MJ's verbiage might have been more that he didn't want to face him in a head-to-head matchup in the playoffs or that he knew what kind of defender Harper was from playing against him in the playoffs. Maybe Harper was a free agent at the time? Who knows?
I was paraphrasing this from decades ago.

Thirdly, the whole point is that we should draft Dylan Harper. He is descended from NBA greatness, especially on the defensive end.

I agree with you about drafting, Dylan, I just wasn't sure about Jordan's comments as I was doing research earlier and saw he was with the Clippers for quite a while before signing with the Bulls. That's what threw me off, but Scott mentioned that they did meet in the playoffs twice when he was still with Cleveland which I didn't know. Still, you made it sound like Jordan made those comments just before they signed him, so that also threw me off as he wasn't in the east for 4 or 5 seasons before he got to the Bulls so he wasn't really in Jordan's way. Thanks for clarifying and explaining it to me.

[DAF86]

zAAblXr_q2w?si=0r2yE0VeyUD7CgU8

According to FTF, ours is the best offer the Bucks can get.

[DAF86]

I hate to sound like a broken record (because I've replied this before to others) but if the Bailey archetype is really that much more preferred over Harper... then I think you are best off just trying to get #7 and TMIII from NOP, since TMIII is the 95th percentile outcome of Ace Bailey.

I would be greedy and ask for TMIII, Herb Jones and #7. Would the Pelicans even consider such a trade?

[Mr. Body]

I would be greedy and ask for TMIII, Herb Jones and #7. Would the Pelicans even consider such a trade?

In an instant. They'd be flipping three good role-players for a potential franchise guy.

[Obstructed_View]

After a day to think on it, I think I'm leaning keep him. How hilarious would it be if the Spurs start winning with small ball lineups as soon as Pop retires?

[DAF86]

He is...but Spurs should still listen to teams trying to move up (while not desperately shopping the pick around...as the three players can work together)

A TM3+Herb+#7 package would be interesting.
Brandon Miller+#4 (then probably taking Edgecombe) could do it as well.
Coulibaly+Sarr+#6 is the third enticing trade down proposal.

...not saying these other teams want to make those deals, but if they view Harper as that upcoming star player, they might be willing to do it (while receiving a player or two back to make salarys work).

But after all these trades could still go down as "Wtf were the Spurs thinking back in '25...Harper is in the MVP conversation now."

I love that trade. Way more than a Giannis one.

#7, TMIII, Herb Jones and Alvarado for Keldon, Vassell and #2 works.

Fox / Alvarado
Castle / Knueppel (#7)
TMIII / Champagnie
Herb / Barnes
Wemby / Maluach (#14)

[DAF86]

In an instant. They'd be flipping three good role-players for a potential franchise guy.

Then I might do it, tbh.

[Mr. Body]

I love that trade. Way more than a Giannis one.

#7, TMIII, Herb Jones and Alvarado for Keldon, Vassell and #2 works.

Fox / Alvarado
Castle / Knuepel (#7)
TMIII / Champagnie
Herb / Barnes
Wemby / Maluach (#14)

That's just fucking insane, no offense.

[CGD]

zAAblXr_q2w?si=0r2yE0VeyUD7CgU8

According to FTF, ours is the best offer the Bucks can get.

They think we still have the Chicago pick so …

[DAF86]

That's just fucking insane, no offense.

How? You are trading a potential all-star, that might pan out or not, for two of the most elite high end role players in the league, both on great contracts, another solid rotation piece and #7, who for all we know might even end up better than the #2 pick.

Why are you acting as if Harper is some kind of Wemby "can't miss" type prospect? Remember Scoot? He was way more hyped than Harper coming in and look how that turned out. What about Zion, Ben Simmons, etc.? I really don't understand how can anyone say "that's fucking insane" to this type of trade :lol. If anything, the Pelicans might not even go for it.

[baseline bum]

I hate to sound like a broken record (because I've replied this before to others) but if the Bailey archetype is really that much more preferred over Harper... then I think you are best off just trying to get #7 and TMIII from NOP, since TMIII is the 95th percentile outcome of Ace Bailey.

Nah man bring that shit up any time Bailey gets mentioned. Bailey is a scary pick to make, like I could see him ending up Alfredrick Hughes level bad with his complete inability to put the ball on the floor, lack of defense, lack of court vision, etc. And he's not even 6'10" so the size isn't anything all too special either at the SF. I mean with his shotmaking skills I would take him over guys like Kon, Maluach, Bryant, and such and hope it translates to the NBA but being so limited to one skill and being bad in other facets has to be terrifying if you're a GM staking your career on the pick. Stephen Jackson was like that offensively and carved out a great career but he was a fucking dawg on the defensive end too.

[Mr. Body]

How? You are trading a potential all-star, that might pan out or not, for two of the most elite high end role players in the league, both on great contracts, another solid rotation piece and #7, who for all we know might even end up better than the #2 pick.

Why are you acting as if Harper is some kind of Wemby "can't miss" type prospect? Remember Scoot? He was way more hyped than Harper coming in and look how that turned out. What about Zion, Ben Simmons, etc.? I really don't understand how can anyone say "that's fucking insane" to this type of trade :lol. If anything, the Pelicans might not even go for it.

Nah man.

Getting a few good role players absolutely does not equate to giving up a potential franchise piece. I realize you guys are in love with Murphy, but it's a horrible idea.

[itzsoweezee]

How? You are trading a potential all-star, that might pan out or not, for two of the most elite high end role players in the league, both on great contracts, another solid rotation piece and #7, who for all we know might even end up better than the #2 pick.

Why are you acting as if Harper is some kind of Wemby "can't miss" type prospect? Remember Scoot? He was way more hyped than Harper coming in and look how that turned out. What about Zion, Ben Simmons, etc.? I really don't understand how can anyone say "that's fucking insane" to this type of trade :lol. If anything, the Pelicans might not even go for it.


Fans love draft picks. They can’t treat them rationally

[dbestpro]

Spurs like big-hand players. Harper is 9.3 inches. Castle is 8.75. Ace Bailey is 8.5.

[Mr. Body]

Fans love draft picks. They can’t treat them rationally

What 'draft pick'? You mean Dylan Harper?

Bro just said the "#7" could be worth more than Dylan Harper. Without saying who that 7 pick is. Who's being irrational here?

[baseline bum]

How? You are trading a potential all-star, that might pan out or not, for two of the most elite high end role players in the league, both on great contracts, another solid rotation piece and #7, who for all we know might even end up better than the #2 pick.

Why are you acting as if Harper is some kind of Wemby "can't miss" type prospect? Remember Scoot? He was way more hyped than Harper coming in and look how that turned out. What about Zion, Ben Simmons, etc.? I really don't understand how can anyone say "that's fucking insane" to this type of trade :lol. If anything, the Pelicans might not even go for it.

Scoot also had a horrible season on GLI, Zion became the fat fuck we were all scared he would, and Simmons turned out a low motor bum. Don't really have those same concerns with Harper. Not saying he's can't miss, Flagg is the only can't miss prospect in this draft and we have seen some seemingly great looking #2 picks like Derrick Williams flame out. And I have serious concerns that Harper couldn't lead his team to the tournament. But the downside seems pretty low with him as he has great positional size and strength. I wouldn't be calling for Brian's head if he traded Harper and Vassell for Trey Murphy III, Herb Jones, and the #7 as Murphy would be a wildly good fit on this roster, but I think I'm leaning towards drafting Harper and seeing if he can live up to his upside as the Spurs probably aren't going to get another chance at this kind of prospect in the draft for another 10-20 years. Think I have cooled on trading him for Giannis too (though a lot of that is having to pay Giannis a 35% supermax which will make the cap situation a mess in two years).

[DAF86]

Nah man.

Getting a few good role players absolutely does not equate to giving up a potential franchise piece. I realize you guys are in love with Murphy, but it's a horrible idea.

I don't think it's a horrible idea when you already have your franchise player, your established veteran #2, and another potential all-star whose game is pretty similar to the potential "franchise player" you are trading away.

Think of it this way: if you already have Giannis, Middleton and Holiday in your team, would you rather add to that core Damian Lillard or Danny Green, Brook Lopez and the #7 pick in the draft?

And I'm being kind with the comparissons, for all we know, Troy Murphy might end up being an all-star before Harper ever becomes a franchise player.

It is not as simple as you think it is, tbh.

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, of course Harper couldn't work out, but you're talking about trading a hundred dollar bill for three twenties. Not a perfect analogy, but essentially the same. Don't throw away a tremendous swing at an All-Star potential player, if not more.

[Holt's Cat]

Wemby the old man out of Castle, Harper, and himself at age 21

Funny that Fox at 27 is middle aged relatively

Keep the youth movement going

[DAF86]

Yeah, of course Harper couldn't work out, but you're talking about trading a hundred dollar bill for three twenties. Not a perfect analogy, but essentially the same. Don't throw away a tremendous swing at an All-Star potential player, if not more.

A better analogy would be trading a one hundred dollar LOTTERY bill for three twenty bills (and a 50 dollar lottery bill), with the chance of one of those twenties actually being a 50 too.

[Holt's Cat]

And it’s not just youth but elite young players

Build the core now let them grow together

Still have other 1st round picks and swaps to keep adding

May be other future opportunities like the Fox trade

Otherwise be patient, this can be something special

[Holt's Cat]

Castle, Fox, Harper, what a difference 12 months makes

[SpursBills]

Nah man.

Getting a few good role players absolutely does not equate to giving up a potential franchise piece. I realize you guys are in love with Murphy, but it's a horrible idea.

Harper is awesome, but there are legitimate concerns with drafting him that go beyond fit for the spurs.

He can get to the rim at will against college athletes, but he has a long history of questionable shooting dating back to his high school sample. Maybe he gets to the rim at will in the NBA too, but can he develop midrange counters for when opponents keep him from getting to the rim? You can see his shooting percentages fall off a cliff with better competition - 57% on 2s for the entire season, 54% against top 100 comp, 49.5% against top 50 comp. Same concerns that Castle has this year where he puts up nice numbers but his inefficiency really hurts him. Castle can always fall back on his defense and is a smart cutter to give him value, if Harper can't score efficiently does he just become a flawed initiator bet who puts up empty stats?

He played on a shitty Rutgers team and couldn't get them to the tourney. Can't blame him for that, but that same shitty Rutgers team was 5 points/100 better on defense with him on the bench vs 5.8 points worse on offense. So basically he was a net neutral for a terrible team. For comparison, Rutgers with "dumbest player ever" Ace Bailey was 10 points/100 better on offense and 4 points/100 better on defense vs when he was on the bench.

None of this is to say that I dislike him or think the Spurs shouldn't draft him. I think he's a clear #2 in his own tier. But the dude isn't a flawless prospect, and for a guy who complains a lot about the overall discourse of this board, maybe you just make DAF defend his position instead of just dismissing him outright, since it makes you sound like a real fucking asshole and a hypocrite to boot.

[DAF86]

Also, what kind of "franchise player" would Harper need to become for that Pelicans trade to be considered a failure from the Spurs perspective? I would argue if Harper ends up being a Trae Young type player, it is better to have the high end role players.

Russel Westbrook, James Harden, Damian Lillard, Kyrie Irving? I might prefer the core of elite role players, tbh.

[Chinook]

LOL @ when that was considered our young core

I used to post a lot back then urging folks to not get attached to the young guys on the team. Folks were still in the old mindset where any young guy was the future of the club. Hell, back in the day, we used to look at Malik Hairston like he was going to be part of the post-Big Three future. The team now has two ROYs and the best PG prospect in the last few years to look forward to.

[cutewizard]

There's Flagg news today....I thought there are discussions on it

I wonder if the source is legit

[baseline bum]

A better analogy would be trading a one hundred dollar LOTTERY bill for three twenty bills (and a 50 dollar lottery bill), with the chance of one of those twenties actually being a 50 too.

I guess I'd counter by asking what if Trey Murphy isn't Danny Green? What if he's Antoine Carr putting up empty numbers on a bad team? I remember how thrilled I was when the Spurs got him only for him to put up 11ppg and 13ppg and not move the needle an inch. There is downside here too.

[vy65]

I don't think it's a horrible idea when you already have your franchise player, your established veteran #2, and another potential all-star whose game is pretty similar to the potential "franchise player" you are trading away.

Think of it this way: if you already have Giannis, Middleton and Holiday in your team, would you rather add to that core Damian Lillard or Danny Green, Brook Lopez and the #7 pick in the draft?

And I'm being kind with the comparissons, for all we know, Troy Murphy might end up being an all-star before Harper ever becomes a franchise player.

It is not as simple as you think it is, tbh.

I agree, it isn’t simple. But you’re not considering the opposite end of the possibility spectrum: Dylan turning into a franchise cornerstone Harden/Cade type PG and pairing that with Wemby. By no means am I saying this will happen, but you could be trading 1/2 of a modern day Shaq-Kobe combination away for Hedo, Ron Mercer, and Sasha Vucevic. I’m not saying that’s the case, but that you need to consider the fact that this will be the highest pick we have for quite a while - and - that it might make sense to swing for the fences considering the upside. Of course, we’re all operating under a severe information deficit, so who knows how things will pan out. But I think there’s a lot of logic with betting on adding a potential franchise player with Wemby and Castle.

[scott]

I would be greedy and ask for TMIII, Herb Jones and #7. Would the Pelicans even consider such a trade?

That is what I'd be looking for as well (at a minimum), and even then I'm not sure I'd do it from the Spurs POV.

[Chinook]

Also, what kind of "franchise player" would Harper need to become for that Pelicans trade to be considered a failure from the Spurs perspective? I would argue if Harper ends up being a Trae Young type player, it is better to have the high end role players.

Russel Westbrook, James Harden, Damian Lillard, Kyrie Irving? I might prefer the core of elite role players, tbh.

No. Like obviously no. Westbrook, Harden and Lillard in their primes could have been traded for a suite of role-players plus a pile of firsts. You're talking about two MVP winners and perennial All-Stars. Role-players aren't an afterthought, but the Spurs don't have a chance of winning a title if they have to use the second-most valuable asset they've had in many years to get them. They have too many picks and too much salary flexibility for that. If you don't think Harper will be a star, or if you think Tre Johnson or whomever you get a seven will be a star, that's one thing. There are trade-down ideas that might work. But the Spurs don't have a single proven franchise player right now, let alone so many that they can turn up their nose at the prospect of getting the next Kyrie Irving.

The Spurs' biggest problem when it comes to their lack of role-players is their poor developmental philosophy. There's zero reason why Vassell should be a streaky shooter and inattentive defender when he had all the right tools coming out of school. They keep drafting guys who can't shoot despite having no recent track record of developing shots, and their defensive philosophy has been abysmal for years now. If that changes, they'll be able to field a set of competent defenders. If it doesn't, trading for guys with good defensively histories will only lead to us seeing them player all of the sudden fall off as soon as they don Silver & Black.

[DAF86]

I guess I'd counter by asking what if Trey Murphy isn't Danny Green? What if he's Antoine Carr putting up empty numbers on a bad team? I remember how thrilled I was when the Spurs got him only for him to put up 11ppg and 13ppg and not move the needle an inch.

Well, Murphy isn't Danny Green at all, tbh. Herb Jones is more Danny. Murphy's defense is average, what he gives you is great shooting at an ideal size with borderline all-star ceiling.

The only concerns I have, with both actually (Herb and Trey), is their injuries.

[vy65]

And, is Fox/Harper/Castle/PF/Wemby all that different than SGA/Dort/JW/Chet/Hart?

[DAF86]

I agree, it isn’t simple. But you’re not considering the opposite end of the possibility spectrum: Dylan turning into a franchise cornerstone Harden/Cade type PG and pairing that with Wemby. By no means am I saying this will happen, but you could be trading 1/2 of a modern day Shaq-Kobe combination away for Hedo, Ron Mercer, and Sasha Vucevic. I’m not saying that’s the case, but that you need to consider the fact that this will be the highest pick we have for quite a while - and - that it might make sense to swing for the fences considering the upside. Of course, we’re all operating under a severe information deficit, so who knows how things will pan out. But I think there’s a lot of logic with betting on adding a potential franchise player with Wemby and Castle.

Well, actually...


Also, what kind of "franchise player" would Harper need to become for that Pelicans trade to be considered a failure from the Spurs perspective? I would argue if Harper ends up being a Trae Young type player, it is better to have the high end role players.

Russel Westbrook, James Harden, Damian Lillard, Kyrie Irving? I might prefer the core of elite role players, tbh.

[exstatic]

If Hornets said, we get 4 and an unprotected or Top 1 protected 2027 pick swap for 2, would you consider it?

No. They fucked us over once on a pick. Lesson learned. If the pick were unprotected, they would probably actually start trying, fight out of the weak ass EC lottery pack, and convey like pick 16 or 17. Not worth swapping 2 and 4.

We need to really not overthink this or get too cute.

[DAF86]

That is what I'd be looking for as well (at a minimum), and even then I'm not sure I'd do it from the Spurs POV.

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd do it either. I'm just sharing thoughts out loud so that we might all come to a conclusion together.

Where I definitely don't agree with Mr. Body is that it is a crazy idea that doesn't even need to be contemplated.

[exstatic]

Well, actually...

Not sure at all how you’re seeing a Trae Young path. Maybe get your prescription checked?

[Obstructed_View]

There's Flagg news today....I thought there are discussions on it

I wonder if the source is legit

The mavs aren't going to be rude and hang up the phone. But there is no realistic package I can think of that would make me part with Flagg.

[DAF86]

Not sure at all how you’re seeing a Trae Young path. Maybe get your prescription checked?

I'm not talking playing style, just tier of player. I also named Harden, Lillard, Irving and Westbrook. Did you really think I consider all those players to have similar games?

If (huge if) Harper becomes a Trae Young tier player, e.i: an extremely flawed, empty calories, "franchise player", I'd much rather have 2 or 3 elite role players.

[Holt's Cat]

I guess I'd counter by asking what if Trey Murphy isn't Danny Green? What if he's Antoine Carr putting up empty numbers on a bad team? I remember how thrilled I was when the Spurs got him only for him to put up 11ppg and 13ppg and not move the needle an inch. There is downside here too.

Remember when that mofo gave all the bench players some kind of Dog nickname?

[Chinook]

The Spurs will have their board, and perhaps on that board, Harper isn't that far about a guy like Tre Johnson. Maybe he's not higher at all. The goal of the draft is to be right, not to align with consensus. It's hard to see another guy being a better prospect than Harper from what I've read, and we know that when this front office zags, they don't always find the better option. But they still have to go with what they think is best, and that means they should be willing to make a trade if necessary. But to be honest, I have this pick as the clear second spot on the "untouchable" rankings behind Wemby. The Spurs need to ace this draft given how unlikely it was for them to be in this position. I don't think they should consider trading the pick for a vet, and if they move down, it should only be because they think the guy they're drafted at the lower pick is going to be a top-three player from this class.

I don't think the Spurs need to make a trade at this time. But if they did want to go star hunting, my max offer would be Castle, Sochan, Vassell, 2026, 2028 and 2030. That's enough salary to match up to $54.8 Million in salary, or pretty much any contract in the league. Give the swap options on those picks, I don't think there's a package out there that is more valuable outside of Houston or OKC cutting deep into their quick. I don't even think there's a good target for that full package. If you swap out Vassell for Branham, you might have a Jaren Jackson Jr. package. The issue is his makes so little that it'd be hard to imagine he'd sign an extension. The defense would be so ridiculous that it would make a Jackson/Wembanyama front court worth a lot. But the risk of Jackson walking for nothing would be too great to wager that much flexibility and draft capital on. Any other feasible trade that isn't Giannis shouldn't require the Spurs to move Castle or 2.

[rascal]

I can't believe some in here are entertaining the thought of trading away getting the incredible luck of getting a future superstar player for some role players.

You can trade Vassell, Keldon and Sochan for role players to fill out roster needs.

[spursistan]

I'm not talking playing style, just tier of player. I also named Harden, Lillard, Irving and Westbrook. Did you really think I consider all those players to have similar games?

If (huge if) Harper becomes a Trae Young tier player, e.i: an extremely flawed, empty calories, "franchise player", I'd much rather have 2 or 3 elite role players.
You're kinda tiptoeing around it, but you do seem to be low on Harper's potential that you are entertaining the idea of trading him for a bunch of unproven role players who have done jackshit in their career as far contributing to winning basketball..

[Chinook]

You're kinda tiptoeing around it, but you do seem to be low on Harper's potential that you are entertaining the idea of trading him for a bunch of unproven role players who have done jackshit in their career as far contributing to winning basketball..

I'm not bothered by someone being low on Harper. The goal is to be right, not to follow the crowd. The issue is to be so lost in the sauce that you'd trade Harden, Irving, Westbrook or Lillard for some role-players. Simply put, Fox is at least a tier below each of those players. If we're hypothetically saying Harper is going to pan out to be like on the level of any of those four, why shouldn't the Spurs trade Fox for the role-players instead?

[scott]

The Spurs will have their board, and perhaps on that board, Harper isn't that far about a guy like Tre Johnson. Maybe he's not higher at all. The goal of the draft is to be right, not to align with consensus. It's hard to see another guy being a better prospect than Harper from what I've read, and we know that when this front office zags, they don't always find the better option. But they still have to go with what they think is best, and that means they should be willing to make a trade if necessary. But to be honest, I have this pick as the clear second spot on the "untouchable" rankings behind Wemby. The Spurs need to ace this draft given how unlikely it was for them to be in this position. I don't think they should consider trading the pick for a vet, and if they move down, it should only be because they think the guy they're drafted at the lower pick is going to be a top-three player from this class.

I don't think the Spurs need to make a trade at this time. But if they did want to go star hunting, my max offer would be Castle, Sochan, Vassell, 2026, 2028 and 2030. That's enough salary to match up to $54.8 Million in salary, or pretty much any contract in the league. Give the swap options on those picks, I don't think there's a package out there that is more valuable outside of Houston or OKC cutting deep into their quick. I don't even think there's a good target for that full package. If you swap out Vassell for Branham, you might have a Jaren Jackson Jr. package. The issue is his makes so little that it'd be hard to imagine he'd sign an extension. The defense would be so ridiculous that it would make a Jackson/Wembanyama front court worth a lot. But the risk of Jackson walking for nothing would be too great to wager that much flexibility and draft capital on. Any other feasible trade that isn't Giannis shouldn't require the Spurs to move Castle or 2.

I agree with this thought process, the only wrinkle would be:

If, in the Spurs process of evaluation come to the conclusion that Harper "ain't it" and the rest of the class doesn't really grade out that well either (and honestly, outside of Flagg and Harper, I'm still not sure that the rest of the lottery is any better or worse than last year's... more on this later)... then the #2 pick becomes significantly more "tradeable", especially if the Spurs view is broadly contrarian to the rest of the league, because that means the rest of the league is likely to pay more for the pick than the pick is inherently worth in the Spurs eyes.

At that point... 1) it's all about maximizing the return on the pick. I didn't like the #8 trade last year not because I hated the idea of trading that pick for more future assets, but because I felt like they didn't get a good enough return... but for the purposes of this conversation we'll just say that was the best possible value the Spurs could get, in which case job well done - you maximized your return. 2) You better hope you are right. You're gonna look bad if Harper turns into an All-NBA player even if you got a haul in return, short of landing an All-NBA guy yourself.

I do think TMIII is getting a little underrated in this discussion, but I do understand the hype around Harper and I'm bought into myself. However, if we're talking about a decision between Ace Bailey and TMIII... give me TMIII every day and twice on Sunday. TMIII is the fully actualized version of Bailey's best outcome. Honestly it would be foolish for any team to take Bailey *if* the possibility exists to get TMIII and extra assets instead.

Now, about what I said about this draft (and this is not in response to you, Chinook... just finishing my thought). Knowing what we know now, I think Castle firmly goes #3 in this draft. I also don't know if any of these guys (outside of Flagg and Harper) go ahead of Sarr and Risacher. There is sudden excitement over Tre Johnson, but he honestly wasn't all that impressive for Texas this year in my opinion and his recent surge is partly driven by workouts. We're talking about Kon Knueppel as a Top 8 pick. Is Essengue really all that different than Saluan? I'd take Clingan over every single C prospect in this class, including Queen. I might be too harsh, but I really think this year and last year's classes are about equal in the lottery outside of the Top 2. With that said, I do think this draft offers more depth after the lotto. If we were at #8, I probably would have been more excited about last year's #8 than this years... but I'm much more excited about this year's #14 than last year's.

[scott]

You're kinda tiptoeing around it, but you do seem to be low on Harper's potential that you are entertaining the idea of trading him for a bunch of unproven role players who have done jackshit in their career as far contributing to winning basketball..

To play Devil's Advocate... Dylan Harper is also an unproven player who has done jackshit in his career as far as contributing to winning basketball. TMIII and Herb are significantly more proven. However... Dylan Harper's potential is higher than both of those guys and that is what his appeal is. But there is a very real chance Harper never accomplishes anything near what those two guys have.

And just so we are all on the same page...

TMIII averaged 21ppg this season. Everyone's favorite chucker, Devin Vassell, never did that and a lot of people were thinking he was worth 2 FRPs last summer.

Herb Jones is an All Defensive 1st Teamer and finished 5th in DPOY voting.

These guys aren't scrubs and are more than just role players.

With that said, I'm still not saying I would do that deal... but like I said in the previous post, folks are underrating those two in the excitement of the moment. #2 and Devin and filler for #7 and TMIII and Herb is pretty close to even, IMO. I bet if you asked levelheaded NOLA fans, many of them would say no.. a decent indication that this is a fairly even trade.

[scott]

I'm not bothered by someone being low on Harper. The goal is to be right, not to follow the crowd. The issue is to be so lost in the sauce that you'd trade Harden, Irving, Westbrook or Lillard for some role-players. Simply put, Fox is at least a tier below each of those players. If we're hypothetically saying Harper is going to pan out to be like on the level of any of those four, why shouldn't the Spurs trade Fox for the role-players instead?

I think the Fox comparison is a good way of looking at it. If the question is: would I trade Fox for #7, TMIII and Herb... I think I probably would (and I really like Fox, think he is a Top 30 player and was a huge advocate of bringing him in). So the question becomes... how likely is it that we think Harper will be a Top 30 player or better?

(Admittedly I'm also a huge fan of TMIII and, to a lesser extent, Herb).

[rascal]

To play Devil's Advocate... Dylan Harper is also an unproven player who has done jackshit in his career as far as contributing to winning basketball. TMIII and Herb are significantly more proven. However... Dylan Harper's potential is higher than both of those guys and that is what his appeal is. But there is a very real chance Harper never accomplishes anything near what those two guys have.

And just so we are all on the same page...

TMIII averaged 21ppg this season. Everyone's favorite chucker, Devin Vassell, never did that and a lot of people were thinking he was worth 2 FRPs last summer.

Herb Jones is an All Defensive 1st Teamer and finished 5th in DPOY voting.

These guys aren't scrubs and are more than just role players.

With that said, I'm still not saying I would do that deal... but like I said in the previous post, folks are underrating those two in the excitement of the moment. #2 and Devin and filler for #7 and TMIII and Herb is pretty close to even, IMO. I bet if you asked levelheaded NOLA fans, many of them would say no.. a decent indication that this is a fairly even trade.

He's going to win with Wemby as his teammate.

[Mr. Body]

Some of you people would have traded the #1 pick (Tim Duncan) for the two Celtics picks that wound up becoming Keith Van Horn and Ron Mercer, because there were two of them and they filled greater needs.

[rascal]

I'm not talking playing style, just tier of player. I also named Harden, Lillard, Irving and Westbrook. Did you really think I consider all those players to have similar games?

If (huge if) Harper becomes a Trae Young tier player, e.i: an extremely flawed, empty calories, "franchise player", I'd much rather have 2 or 3 elite role players.

He's more of a Dwayne Wade potential type of player. Just needs some work on his perimeter shot and he's there with Wade with his ability to get to the basket.

Wade was a beast in his prime.

[rascal]

To play Devil's Advocate... Dylan Harper is also an unproven player who has done jackshit in his career as far as contributing to winning basketball. TMIII and Herb are significantly more proven. However... Dylan Harper's potential is higher than both of those guys and that is what his appeal is. But there is a very real chance Harper never accomplishes anything near what those two guys have.

And just so we are all on the same page...

TMIII averaged 21ppg this season. Everyone's favorite chucker, Devin Vassell, never did that and a lot of people were thinking he was worth 2 FRPs last summer.

Herb Jones is an All Defensive 1st Teamer and finished 5th in DPOY voting.

These guys aren't scrubs and are more than just role players.

With that said, I'm still not saying I would do that deal... but like I said in the previous post, folks are underrating those two in the excitement of the moment. #2 and Devin and filler for #7 and TMIII and Herb is pretty close to even, IMO. I bet if you asked levelheaded NOLA fans, many of them would say no.. a decent indication that this is a fairly even trade.

Package Vassell and a first for your boy TMIII. Don't lose the superstar potential of Harper for TMIII.

[scott]

Package Vassell and a first for your boy TMIII. Don't lose the superstar potential of Harper for TMIII.

I definitely think we should be sending Vassell off to somewhere (Siberia maybe?), but I don't think TMIII is the right guy if we're going to have Fox/Castle/Harper on our team (which, if it's not clear, I still prefer... I just think the trade scenarios are worth discussing).

Lauri is probably a good archetype to pair with those 3 and Wemby... but I don't want his contract. Myles Turner and JJJ would actually probably be the perfect guys, but I don't think either are available, nor do we have the capital to acquire them (while keeping Harper and Castle), and I don't want to pay them either. Who are guys at #14 with the potential to grow into a Turner/JJJ type player?

[Baam]

I can't believe some in here are entertaining the thought of trading away getting the incredible luck of getting a future superstar player for some role players.

You can trade Vassell, Keldon and Sochan for role players to fill out roster needs.

Fultz and Lonzo were supposed to be superstar PGs until they were nothing. Something is better than nothing. Spurs don't need to take the gamble, Wemby doesn't have to wait. Just get the elite role players and make the leap.

If this team doesn't add shooting in starting positions it will be capped much lower than it should.

[heyheymymy]

No Giannis
No Flagg

Draft Harper

[thOOdee]

Fultz and Lonzo were supposed to be superstar PGs until they were nothing. Something is better than nothing. Spurs don't need to take the gamble, Wemby doesn't have to wait. Just get the elite role players and take the leap.

If this team doesn't add shooting in starting positions it will be capped much lower than it should.

completely agree with this, and the comparisons of trading harper being equivalent to DUNCAN for mercer and vanhorn is crazy. Haprer will not be duncan. Count on it.

HOWEVER, we have warchest of 1sts. There is no way spurs shouldnt be able to find players that fit the shooting/rebounding needs as time goes on. Its not loke tmiii was a top 10 pick.

the only problem with this is spurs weakness over the last few years in developing players. But if the spurs’s plan was to accumulate this war chest, all while knowing they were going to avoid and hide from actually developing players, future is fucked no matter what they do.

[Vienna]

all the theories aside regarding overlaping skills, as it has been mentioned, IF Castle and Harper somehow work together, that would be a very special back court.
and I do think Spurs Coaches and FO want to find out about this before they make any moves involving one of them.
the selling point is the time line IMO.
IF it works AND it works with Wemby, you are talking about a big 3 core for 15 Years to come.
sure, Spurs would love to win a 6th championship with Giannis. maybe #7.
BUT........the potential to build a new dynasty for a decade or more, THAT should be the most intriguing goal. five more rings.

[rankingtear]

I think the Franz one someone suggested is good he matches Dylan Harper theoretical upside without the risk and the possible devaluation of Castle/Fox acquisition. TMIII dick riding is insane the guy won't do shit in the playoffs.

[The Truth #6]

It will be sad and hilarious when on draft day the Spurs end up not trading the pick... and picking VJ Edgecombe. With the Spurs you always have to prepare for something a little off-kilter and or stupid.

[exstatic]

It will be sad and hilarious when on draft day the Spurs end up not trading the pick... and picking VJ Edgecombe. With the Spurs you always have to prepare for something a little off-kilter and or stupid.

Not with a top pick. They never F around with those. If they keep the pick, they’re taking Harper.

[mo7888]

I definitely think we should be sending Vassell off to somewhere (Siberia maybe?), but I don't think TMIII is the right guy if we're going to have Fox/Castle/Harper on our team (which, if it's not clear, I still prefer... I just think the trade scenarios are worth discussing).

Lauri is probably a good archetype to pair with those 3 and Wemby... but I don't want his contract. Myles Turner and JJJ would actually probably be the perfect guys, but I don't think either are available, nor do we have the capital to acquire them (while keeping Harper and Castle), and I don't want to pay them either. Who are guys at #14 with the potential to grow into a Turner/JJJ type player?

I actually think TMIII fits great here short-term. You run a Fox, Castle or Harper, TMIII, Barnes, and Wemby lineup and bring one of Castle or Harper off the bench.

[LeBowen]

While we're at potential SFs, call me crazy, but I'd take MPJ if he's available for no FRPs given up.
He's had a career year this regular season, his playoff struggles are due to his shoulder injury which is mechanical and didn't happen because he's an injury risk.
He's been healthy for almost 3 years before that. And has performed well in the playoffs up until this injury.

6'10, elite 3pt shooter and a good rebounder. Two years left on his contract, it's done before Wemby's extension kicks in.
$38M next season, Devin and Keldon will make $8M more and he'd surely be more useful than two of them.

Just to make it clear again, I wouldn't give up even a single FRP for him, but Nuggets will probably move him and if being the third team similar to Barnes trade is all it takes, then I'd do it, no questions asked.
Even if he doesn't deliver, he'd be an expiring in 2026 summer and easy to move.

[Dejounte]

While we're at potential SFs, call me crazy, but I'd take MPJ if he's available for no FRPs given up.
He's had a career year this regular season, his playoff struggles are due to his shoulder injury which is mechanical and didn't happen because he's an injury risk.
He's been healthy for almost 3 years before that. And has performed well in the playoffs up until this injury.

6'10, elite 3pt shooter and a good rebounder. Two years left on his contract, it's done before Wemby's extension kicks in.
$38M next season, Devin and Keldon will make $8M more and he'd surely be more useful than two of them.

Just to make it clear again, I wouldn't give up even a single FRP for him, but Nuggets will probably move him and if being the third team similar to Barnes trade is all it takes, then I'd do it, no questions asked.
Even if he doesn't deliver, he'd be an expiring in 2026 summer and easy to move.
I think that move would cement Fox, Castle, Harper never playing together at the 1,2,3, no?

[Mal]

While we're at potential SFs, call me crazy, but I'd take MPJ if he's available for no FRPs given up.


Denver might be looking for depth going forward. MPJ for Vassell and Keldon would make sense.
But still, if we are looking at short team solution at forwards, I prefer Durant for same package, no FRP added. Phoenix would end with 5 players playing same position, while being paid 150 mil, but thats their problem

[Mal]

I think that move would cement Fox, Castle, Harper never playing together at the 1,2,3, no?

I can imagine playing those 3 with Sochan and switch everything with constant ball pressure, while Wemby defends the paint with his length.

[LeBowen]

I think that move would cement Fox, Castle, Harper never playing together at the 1,2,3, no?

I don't think they should all start together, at least not in Harper's rookie season.
If he actually is on that Cade trajectory, then you make adjustments for 26-27.

Ideally we'd want Collins/Naz type at PF, but even Fox/Castle/Barnes/MPJ/Wemby would be deadly, how do you stop those guards from getting to the rim with elite spacing around them and Wemby running slow bigs off the floor?
If we get Harper, that should be the primary objective of this roster. Get more frontcourt shooting around Wemby to enable elite paint penetrators to do whatever they want.

And MPJ would be a stop gap, I'm just looking for solid players with low current value that wouldn't mess with the cap space in 2027 and onwards. We have two more seasons to do whatever with cap space, after that it gets tricky.

[Degoat]

Spurs have to draft Harper it’s a no brainer, however when it comes to the Starting lineups I’m honestly leaning Fox/Harper starting, I love Castle and his tenacious play but his numbers were ballooned up this year with wemby and Fox missing a big portion of the year.

[mo7888]

As I said earlier, I'm in favor of keeping #2. That said, we are pretty sure there's going to be a conversation with Milwaukee for Giannis, so if your 'talking' with them do you also pick up the phone and check in with Denver and LA? Wouldn't due diligence dictate that they do that? It's not a prediction or a suggestion that there's a deal there on either side, but I think you have to check in. Luka might not like being in LA and refuses to sign an extension or maybe Denver ownership gets cheap and won't reasonably put a team around the Joker? I'm just saying that I don't think Nico is the last boneheaded GM in the be league.

[baseline bum]

It will be sad and hilarious when on draft day the Spurs end up not trading the pick... and picking VJ Edgecombe. With the Spurs you always have to prepare for something a little off-kilter and or stupid.

If there is one thing the Spurs absolutely love in the draft it's big guards who can run an offense. Though I'm sure there will be a ton of discussion in the front office about trading the pick too. I'd be really surprised with them drafting Edgecombe over Harper though.

[baseline bum]

As I said earlier, I'm in favor of keeping #2. That said, we are pretty sure there's going to be a conversation with Milwaukee for Giannis, so if your 'talking' with them do you also pick up the phone and check in with Denver and LA? Wouldn't due diligence dictate that they do that? It's not a prediction or a suggestion that there's a deal there on either side, but I think you have to check in. Luka might not like being in LA and refuses to sign an extension or maybe Denver ownership gets cheap and won't reasonably put a team around the Joker? I'm just saying that I don't think Nico is the last boneheaded GM in the be league.

There is nothing I want from Denver other than Jokic and they're not trading him.

[mo7888]

If there is one thing the Spurs absolutely love in the draft it's big guards who can run an offense. Though I'm sure there will be a ton of discussion in the front office about trading the pick too. I'd be really surprised with them drafting Edgecombe over Harper though.

I'd be surprised if they took Edgecombe over Harper, but i do think it's close between those two. The only reason I have Harper slightly ahead is because he can play multiple positions while Edgecombe is strictly a 2.

[rascal]

I think that move would cement Fox, Castle, Harper never playing together at the 1,2,3, no?

How many minutes do you think Castle, Fox and Harper will play together at the 1,2 and 3? 5-10 minutes a game
They can get 32 minutes a game each alternating rest at the guard positions then castle can move over to SF for another 5- 10 to open up more minutes for all three.

Still can add a starting quality SF to that arrangement.

[The Truth #6]

Not with a top pick. They never F around with those. If they keep the pick, they’re taking Harper.

I definitely hope so. And I'm not saying I expect them to do something wacky like that, but as fans, I think it is good to remind ourselves we're not making the decisions and the Spurs can be unorthodox from the outside perspective.

[Manu&Duncan fan]

And, is Fox/Harper/Castle/PF/Wemby all that different than SGA/Dort/JW/Chet/Hart?

Yes. Our line up will beat Thunder's in 2 years.

Because we have an alien.

[LeBowen]

How many minutes do you think Castle, Fox and Harper will play together at the 1,2 and 3? 5-10 minutes a game
They can get 32 minutes a game each alternating rest at the guard positions then castle can move over to SF for another 5- 10 to open up more minutes for all three.

Still can add a starting quality SF to that arrangement.

Here's my idea from yesterday, assuming we get a legit starting PF.
I used John Collins in this case, with him being able to play both PF/C.
Keldon is done and we don't need both #14 and Jeremy if we assume it's a rookie forward.
Jeremy can stay if #14 is a C and replaces veteran backup.


240 minutes available, 48 per position.

PG: Fox (34), Harper (14), Wesley
SG: Castle (32), Harper (16), Branham
SF: Barnes (20), Devin (28), Champagnie
PF: Collins (18), Barnes (8), Jeremy or #14 (22), Mamu
C: Wemby (34), Collins (14), veteran backup

[The Truth #6]

I'm not bothered by someone being low on Harper. The goal is to be right, not to follow the crowd. The issue is to be so lost in the sauce that you'd trade Harden, Irving, Westbrook or Lillard for some role-players. Simply put, Fox is at least a tier below each of those players. If we're hypothetically saying Harper is going to pan out to be like on the level of any of those four, why shouldn't the Spurs trade Fox for the role-players instead?

Earlier I said if a trade HAS to be made, since that is the impulse here, than why not Fox instead of Harper. It's not like Fox has played more than, what, 20 games for us. If course that would be a BAD look. But this is all ridiculous speculation anyway.

for me, if Harper does have this great ceiling and potential, and we have him on a very affordable contract for 4 years, combined with the fact that fox is going to need a lot of money, and Devin already gets too much money, and Devin is going to be hard to trade, I don't know, it's hard for me to get super attached to Fox.

Anyway. Just rambling...

[mo7888]

There is nothing I want from Denver other than Jokic and they're not trading him.

I'm not suggesting that they will. I'm just suggesting that 'due diligence' suggests that we make the call after Denver gets knocked out tomorrow. Same with LA....

[rascal]

Fultz and Lonzo were supposed to be superstar PGs until they were nothing. Something is better than nothing. Spurs don't need to take the gamble, Wemby doesn't have to wait. Just get the elite role players and make the leap.

If this team doesn't add shooting in starting positions it will be capped much lower than it should.

If you don't believe in Harper being great then you will be wrong if you think he has a chance to be like Fultz (who never looked very good to me). Lonzo wasn't bad( Harper looks even better than Ball, Harper is going to be special) and if he had Wemby they would win.

You don't trade future stars for role players. It took getting lucky getting the 2nd pick to get Harper, don't throw away getting that luck and a chance at getting Harper for role players.

Harper, Castle and Wemby are close in age and it took incredible luck to land three top 4 picks in three consecutive years. You build around that core for the next 10-15 years.

You can't trade Fox now.
It will be doing him dirty trading him now so he stays for a couple of years at least.

You can add role players are a lower cost, Vassell, Keldon, Sochan, who are themselves role players. Just trade role players for better fit role players.

[rascal]

Here's my idea from yesterday, assuming we get a legit starting PF.
I used John Collins in this case, with him being able to play both PF/C.
Keldon is done and we don't need both #14 and Jeremy if we assume it's a rookie forward.
Jeremy can stay if #14 is a C and replaces veteran backup.

Yes and you can also play Castle, Harper and Fox together for a few minutes together to open more minutes for all three.

You showed it's doable minutes wise

[Manu20]

The Spurs should just pick Harper with #2 as he looks to be by a fairly wide margin the 2nd best player in this draft. Only way they should trade the #2 pick is if the Bucks are willing to work on a trade for Giannis. And no Fox should and would not be in any trade discussions as that would be a bad look for the Spurs.

IMO we should not trade the #2 pick for "Elite Role Players" if the Spurs decide to trade, it should be for an establish star.

[LeBowen]

Earlier I said if a trade HAS to be made, since that is the impulse here, than why not Fox instead of Harper. It's not like Fox has played more than, what, 20 games for us. If course that would be a BAD look. But this is all ridiculous speculation anyway.

Because even if Harper was the best prospect ever, he still hasn't played a single NBA game. Nothing is guaranteed.
We can't waste another season, we have to make the playoffs.
If we don't take Harper or trade Fox/Castle, we'd need another point guard yet again. Castle isn't a true point guard, we need him and two more.
Don't forget that self-creation and paint penetration was our biggest issue on offense last season before we got Fox.

Castle was the only perimeter player who got to the rim with ease, but his FT% was subpar and his finishing at the rim wasn't ideal.
Keldon's every drive was a roulette spin.
CP3 had no legs left, didn't even have a layup attempt in most games.
Wemby's isos were cringe most of the time.
Others were all a net negative with the ball in their hands.

Spurs 24-25 roster without CP3 needs another self-creator who can get to the rim at will.
We need a point guard, but don't want to use significant cap space on one.
Harper will be overqualified for the 6th man role, but he'll easily get 30mpg and if he's indeed the next star guard, he'll find himself in the starting lineup in no time.
Idk why are you people overthinking this.

We need every good player we can get.
We want to make the playoffs, we have a rookie coach, can't leave him with a rookie and a sophmore as the only useful ballhandlers on the roster.

[rascal]

Earlier I said if a trade HAS to be made, since that is the impulse here, than why not Fox instead of Harper. It's not like Fox has played more than, what, 20 games for us. If course that would be a BAD look. But this is all ridiculous speculation anyway.

for me, if Harper does have this great ceiling and potential, and we have him on a very affordable contract for 4 years, combined with the fact that fox is going to need a lot of money, and Devin already gets too much money, and Devin is going to be hard to trade, I don't know, it's hard for me to get super attached to Fox.

Anyway. Just rambling...

They need to find a way to trade Vassell

[baseline bum]

Earlier I said if a trade HAS to be made, since that is the impulse here, than why not Fox instead of Harper. It's not like Fox has played more than, what, 20 games for us. If course that would be a BAD look. But this is all ridiculous speculation anyway.

for me, if Harper does have this great ceiling and potential, and we have him on a very affordable contract for 4 years, combined with the fact that fox is going to need a lot of money, and Devin already gets too much money, and Devin is going to be hard to trade, I don't know, it's hard for me to get super attached to Fox.

Anyway. Just rambling...

Because it would piss off every agent in the league and no one would come here when a star forces his way to the team only to get sent somewhere he didn't want to be 4 months later. Not to mention fucking a guy over who was so excited to come here he burned his reputation by forcing the trade. Plus we don't know if Harper or Castle ever becomes better than Fox anyways.

[baseline bum]

They need to find a way to trade Vassell

Yeah there is no room for that bum with Harper added to the mix.

[rascal]

As I said earlier, I'm in favor of keeping #2. That said, we are pretty sure there's going to be a conversation with Milwaukee for Giannis, so if your 'talking' with them do you also pick up the phone and check in with Denver and LA? Wouldn't due diligence dictate that they do that? It's not a prediction or a suggestion that there's a deal there on either side, but I think you have to check in. Luka might not like being in LA and refuses to sign an extension or maybe Denver ownership gets cheap and won't reasonably put a team around the Joker? I'm just saying that I don't think Nico is the last boneheaded GM in the be league.

Giannis is going to be an all chips in move that the Spurs have said they don't want to do. It's going to cost Harper maybe even Castle along with more draft picks.
You will be trading a 10-15 year window for a 4 year win now window.

Spurs have a history of not going for the all chips in type of moves.

Spurs plan all along was being patient and build through the draft and luck has been on their side. It has worked great.

[The Truth #6]

Because it would piss off every agent in the league and no one would come here when a star forces his way to the team only to get sent somewhere he didn't want to be 4 months later. Not to mention fucking a guy over who was so excited to come here he burned his reputation by forcing the trade. Plus we don't know if Harper or Castle ever becomes better than Fox anyways.

For the record, I'm not in favor of trading away our good players. Just having fun with the conversation that seems fixated on trading Harper.

[baseline bum]

I'd be surprised if they took Edgecombe over Harper, but i do think it's close between those two. The only reason I have Harper slightly ahead is because he can play multiple positions while Edgecombe is strictly a 2.

Edgecombe and Harper are about the same as three point shooters. Shot nearly the same percentage on nearly the same volume. Sure Edgecombe is a better defender but it's really all he has on Harper. If Edgecombe had Harrison Barnes' size to play the 3 and some spot 4 this would be a much more interesting debate but he's not and the gap between the two is pretty sizeable IMO given Harper is a legit PG and huge for the position.

[LeBowen]

Edgecombe and Harper are about the same as three point shooters. Shot nearly the same percentage on nearly the same volume. Sure Edgecombe is a better defender but it's really all he has on Harper. If Edgecombe had Harrison Barnes' size to play the 3 and some spot 4 this would be a much more interesting debate but he's not and the gap between the two is pretty sizeable IMO given Harper is a legit PG and huge for the position.

While you're at Barnes, yesterday I read an interesting comparison that Ace's measurements, college stats and projections are as close as it gets to Barnes.
Do we take a potential Barnes over potential Cade just because we need a forward more?

[baseline bum]

Spurs plan all along was being patient and build through the draft and luck has been on their side. It has worked great.

Damn is that the understatement of the year. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine the Spurs would be in position to draft Harper after just getting Wemby and Castle. They probably do have an OKC level juggernaut now by taking Harper. Gonna be pretty ridiculous in 2-3 years having three guys with star PG skills on the floor with Wemby to close out playoff games.

[baseline bum]

While you're at Barnes, yesterday I read an interesting comparison that Ace's measurements, college stats and projections are as close as it gets to Barnes.
Do we take a potential Barnes over potential Cade just because we need a forward more?

No way, Barnes was an elite defender at UNC.

[LeBowen]

Damn is that the understatement of the year. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine the Spurs would be in position to draft Harper after just getting Wemby and Castle. They probably do have an OKC level juggernaut now by taking Harper. Gonna be pretty ridiculous in 2-3 years having three guys with star PG skills on the floor with Wemby to close out playoff games.

Tbh, we'll have some first world problems.
We won't be able to trade most of the near future picks because they have swaps attached.
Obivously they'll be able to, but you don't want to give up a potential lottery pick and we won't be doing any more star player trades due to cap situation.

2026: ATL swap.
2027: Own pick already gone, ATL unprotected.
2028: BOS swap.
2029: The only one without a swap.
2030: DAL/MIN swap.
2031: SAC swap.

Some of those could get us more lottery picks.

[DAF86]

You're kinda tiptoeing around it, but you do seem to be low on Harper's potential that you are entertaining the idea of trading him for a bunch of unproven role players who have done jackshit in their career as far contributing to winning basketball..

No, I said I haven't watched much of Harper. What bugs me is that, from his scouting report, he's very redundant with Fox and Castle.

[baseline bum]

Tbh, we'll have some first world problems.
We won't be able to trade most of the near future picks because they have swaps attached.
Obivously they'll be able to, but you don't want to give up a potential lottery pick and we won't be doing any more star player trades due to cap situation.

2026: ATL swap.
2027: Own pick already gone, ATL unprotected.
2028: BOS swap.
2029: The only one without a swap.
2030: DAL/MIN swap.
2031: SAC swap.

Some of those could get us more lottery picks.

Yeah that's why I only ever wanted to include the 2029 or the lesser 2025 when we were talking KD trades. And man all of a sudden that top 1 protected Boston swap in 2028 is looking pretty interesting with Tatum's achilles tear, knowing the Celtics are going to gut their team this summer.

[DAF86]

I do think the best course of action is to just draft Harper and see how it unfolds. You always have time to make trades later (although you might lose value).

[baseline bum]

No, I said I haven't watched much of Harper. What bugs me is that, from his scouting report, he's very redundant with Fox and Castle.

Problem is there is no forward worth taking in the top 5 after Flagg. So if you're taking a guard I don't see how PG skills are anything but a plus. Especially when the next best guard, Edgecombe, is the same level of three point shooter Harper is.

[DAF86]

Problem is there is no forward worth taking in the top 5 after Flagg. So if you're taking a guard I don't see how PG skills are anything but a plus. Especially when the next best guard, Edgecombe, is the same level of three point shooter Harper is.

I wouldn't write Ace Bailey off yet, tbh.

[KobesAchilles]

I wouldn't write Ace Bailey off yet, tbh.
His height kinda scares me away from him tbh. It’s not that he’s short or anything but I was sold on him being 6’10. The fact that he’s 6’7 isn’t a good thing. A 6’10 guy with a high arching shot that can shoot over anybody imo is worth the 2 pick. A 6’7 guy however not so much.

His flaws in his game are all fixable. But how good is our player development? That’s what I don’t know. I really wish we stopped being so damn cheap and did a complete overhaul in player development coaches and assistant coaches. Especially now with the number 2 pick. But we are a badly run franchise from the top down so not much to be said about it.

[baseline bum]

I wouldn't write Ace Bailey off yet, tbh.

Drives me nuts seeing how little court vision Keldon has and Ace would be similar but you're also subtracting Keldon's ability to just bull his way to the rim. Just wouldn't be surprised to him be 2025 Whitmore (though no way he drops as far as 20). Was reading something in the Toronto Sun where they were discussing how there might be an outside chance to get Bailey with their #9 pick with how rapidly his stock has been falling at the combine.

[fafo]

Wright somehow got Fox for Collins/Tre and superfluous picks, so I’m gonna hold out for a Giannis scam.

[rascal]

Damn is that the understatement of the year. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine the Spurs would be in position to draft Harper after just getting Wemby and Castle. They probably do have an OKC level juggernaut now by taking Harper. Gonna be pretty ridiculous in 2-3 years having three guys with star PG skills on the floor with Wemby to close out playoff games.

Yes, stay the course they have been on. Luck has been kind to them and the backcourt is set now for the future along with having Wemby all on the same timeline.

[Spursfanfromafar]

As intimidating and amazing a frontline of Giannis & Wemby would be, I doubt that the Spurs will go in that direction, because they would have to give way too much for Giannis. I doubt if Giannis will leave Milwaukee, as well. Lets see.

From all accounts (and videos that I have seen), Harper is a legitimate PG and an excellent prospect. The Spurs shouldn't overthink this. There is no need to trade down at all.. as all other prospects are at least a tier below Harper. Trading down is therefore ruled out. Harper's addition would mean that the Spurs will have Wemby, Castle and Harper on the same timeline and a star like Fox to build with.

The Spurs must figure out a way to get a legitimate 3 and D player instead of Keldon who offers neither. Vassell is maddeningly inconsistent but he is a much better fit on paper with the four core players (Wemby, Castle, Harper and Fox) than Keldon is.

So I think the way to do that is to dangle the 14th pick to the Nets along with Keldon for a lower FRP or maybe the 14th and the 38th for the lower of the two late FRPs that the Nets have plus Cam Johnson. And figure out a way to get a back-up for Wemby at C. (Porzingis can be had from the ailing Celtics for Barnes and Branham? I dont know).

[mo7888]

Edgecombe and Harper are about the same as three point shooters. Shot nearly the same percentage on nearly the same volume. Sure Edgecombe is a better defender but it's really all he has on Harper. If Edgecombe had Harrison Barnes' size to play the 3 and some spot 4 this would be a much more interesting debate but he's not and the gap between the two is pretty sizeable IMO given Harper is a legit PG and huge for the position.

I think Edgecombe's form is better than Harper and his athleticism is better as well. I think he'll be the better 3 point shooter in the league. Still, I have Harper ahead because of the other attributes he has. I just think is fairly close.

[exstatic]

No, I said I haven't watched much of Harper. What bugs me is that, from his scouting report, he's very redundant with Fox and Castle.

A few years ago, Sean was saying on the telecast that he asked Pop why they didn’t run certain plays any more. Pop flat out said that the players didn’t have the skills to run them.

You might have a point if they were all 6’3”, Fox sized. The reality is that you can actually run them all together on the floor as a 1-3 combo. Having redundant high level PG skills guys that can occupy the floor at the same time doesn’t actually sound like a problem

[mo7888]

Giannis is going to be an all chips in move that the Spurs have said they don't want to do. It's going to cost Harper maybe even Castle along with more draft picks.
You will be trading a 10-15 year window for a 4 year win now window.

Spurs have a history of not going for the all chips in type of moves.

Spurs plan all along was being patient and build through the draft and luck has been on their side. It has worked great.

I don't disagree with that. It is our history and our expected future. I just think due diligence requires looking under every rock to see what's out there. There's probably not a better way forward than just taking Harper, but they owe it to the franchise to make sure that's the case.

[Vienna]

the easiest and most logical strategy is always this: you do the things you can control.

this means, you draft Harper and you keep Fox. do you extend Fox? yes.

you have short term goals (next season and the season after): develop, make play offs. max for Fox (till 2030, 4th year PO), rookie scale for Wemby, Castle, Harper.
medium term goals (seasons 2028 and 2029): 1st Championship of the Wemby era. 1st max/supermax for Wemby, Fox on max, rookie scale for Castle and Harper.
long term goals (seasons 2030 to 2040): multiple championships of the Wemby dynasty. 2nd and 3rd max/supermax for Wemby, max for Harper and Castle. Fox is traded before 2030 season, or leaves as a FA 2029.

if Fox doesn't work at all with Castle and Harper, you can always trade him as early as 2026 or 2027. at least you tried and you still gave him a good extension. noone will blame Spurs if they make the necessary moves in 2026.
if things work according to plan, Fox will either leave the Spurs 2029 as FA, at age 31, or he chooses the be part of the dynasty for a pay cut.

and no, this script doesn't have a role for Keldon and Vassell, likely not for Sochan. (unless he shows up next season as a shooter)

[exstatic]

Wright somehow got Fox for Collins/Tre and superfluous picks, so I’m gonna hold out for a Giannis scam.

That was forced by Rich Paul.

[vy65]

Damn is that the understatement of the year. Never in my wildest dreams did I imagine the Spurs would be in position to draft Harper after just getting Wemby and Castle. They probably do have an OKC level juggernaut now by taking Harper. Gonna be pretty ridiculous in 2-3 years having three guys with star PG skills on the floor with Wemby to close out playoff games.

I keep looking at those Hawks picks. It's a shame that the West got so much better than the East so quickly, but all it takes is something happening to Trae and that swap or '27 looks mighty fine. Also liking the BOS28 swap.

[scott]

I actually think TMIII fits great here short-term. You run a Fox, Castle or Harper, TMIII, Barnes, and Wemby lineup and bring one of Castle or Harper off the bench.

If one of Castle or Harper is the 6th man, then I agree TMIII is a great fit. But I’m operating under the assumption that we’ll run them together with Castle at the 3. There is where my opinion that TMIII isn’t the right guy comes from.

Lots of team construction possibilities.

[LeBowen]

If one of Castle or Harper is the 6th man, then I agree TMIII is a great fit. But I’m operating under the assumption that we’ll run them together with Castle at the 3. There is where my opinion that TMIII isn’t the right guy comes from.

Lots of team construction possibilities.

You know my opinion of Murphy, but getting a legit PF should be the priority.
Barnes and Champ can do the job for a year until we figure everything out.
Getting Murphy or another similar SF wouldn't solve our rebounding and paint presence issues.

I know I'm boring, but there's no other way around it.
AD, Gordon, Smith Jr, nephew, Lebron, JJJ, Randle, Zion, Chet, KD, Markkanen.
Almost every team in the West has a PF that's either 6'10 or physical and plays above his size.
Jeremy is the only one who can be a solid PF matchup, but he's offensively challenged and can't start.

I'd be perfectly happy with Harper, legit starting PF, #14 used on the best PF or C prospect and a veteran backup big. That's all we need to have a functional roster.

[scott]

Because even if Harper was the best prospect ever, he still hasn't played a single NBA game. Nothing is guaranteed.
We can't waste another season, we have to make the playoffs.
If we don't take Harper or trade Fox/Castle, we'd need another point guard yet again. Castle isn't a true point guard, we need him and two more.
Don't forget that self-creation and paint penetration was our biggest issue on offense last season before we got Fox.

Castle was the only perimeter player who got to the rim with ease, but his FT% was subpar and his finishing at the rim wasn't ideal.
Keldon's every drive was a roulette spin.
CP3 had no legs left, didn't even have a layup attempt in most games.
Wemby's isos were cringe most of the time.
Others were all a net negative with the ball in their hands.

Spurs 24-25 roster without CP3 needs another self-creator who can get to the rim at will.
We need a point guard, but don't want to use significant cap space on one.
Harper will be overqualified for the 6th man role, but he'll easily get 30mpg and if he's indeed the next star guard, he'll find himself in the starting lineup in no time.
Idk why are you people overthinking this.

We need every good player we can get.
We want to make the playoffs, we have a rookie coach, can't leave him with a rookie and a sophmore as the only useful ballhandlers on the roster.

For the sake of egos (and because it’s probably the right move anyway), you just start all 3 of Fox/Castle/Harper, but you get into your rotations early and those 3 are part of the starting and closing lineups (about 8 minutes a game worth together) and then the rest of the game they are just rotating so that two are on the court at all times?

[RC_Drunkford]

As intimidating and amazing a frontline of Giannis & Wemby would be, I doubt that the Spurs will go in that direction, because they would have to give way too much for Giannis. I doubt if Giannis will leave Milwaukee, as well. Lets see.

From all accounts (and videos that I have seen), Harper is a legitimate PG and an excellent prospect. The Spurs shouldn't overthink this. There is no need to trade down at all.. as all other prospects are at least a tier below Harper. Trading down is therefore ruled out. Harper's addition would mean that the Spurs will have Wemby, Castle and Harper on the same timeline and a star like Fox to build with.

The Spurs must figure out a way to get a legitimate 3 and D player instead of Keldon who offers neither. Vassell is maddeningly inconsistent but he is a much better fit on paper with the four core players (Wemby, Castle, Harper and Fox) than Keldon is.

So I think the way to do that is to dangle the 14th pick to the Nets along with Keldon for a lower FRP or maybe the 14th and the 38th for the lower of the two late FRPs that the Nets have plus Cam Johnson. And figure out a way to get a back-up for Wemby at C. (Porzingis can be had from the ailing Celtics for Barnes and Branham? I dont know).

We need 3-and-D forwards galore. Cam Johnson is not a great defender and he's 30. I'm not trading picks for players older than 27. Just draft Carter Bryant or Fleming and hope they develop. Try to get John Collins for Keldon + Branham and a bunch of 2nd rounders.

[Baam]

For the sake of egos (and because it’s probably the right move anyway), you just start all 3 of Fox/Castle/Harper, but you get into your rotations early and those 3 are part of the starting and closing lineups (about 8 minutes a game worth together) and then the rest of the game they are just rotating so that two are on the court at all times?

So you want to have the worst shooting position 1 through 3 in the league, got it. Gonna be funny in one year when no one makes the leap to above average shooter... I will be there to remind you all about the Harden talk.

[Mr. Body]

I keep looking at those Hawks picks. It's a shame that the West got so much better than the East so quickly, but all it takes is something happening to Trae and that swap or '27 looks mighty fine. Also liking the BOS28 swap.

It's going to be hard for the Hawks to not make the playoffs next year.

[twodeep]

Edgecombe and Harper are about the same as three point shooters. Shot nearly the same percentage on nearly the same volume. Sure Edgecombe is a better defender but it's really all he has on Harper. If Edgecombe had Harrison Barnes' size to play the 3 and some spot 4 this would be a much more interesting debate but he's not and the gap between the two is pretty sizeable IMO given Harper is a legit PG and huge for the position.

Just to help with the discussion this is what sporting news had in their chart on size reach etc
Link if anyone wants to see the rest
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-draft-combine-results-height-wingspan-measurements/cc328a555b744275ba6c7166



Player
Height (without shoes)
Weight (lbs)
Wingspan
Standing reach


Cooper Flagg
6-7.75
221
7-0
8-10.5


Dylan Harper
6-4.5
213.2
6-10.5
8-6


VJ Edgecombe
6-4
193.2
6-7.5
8-5.5


Ace Bailey
6-7.5
202.8
7-0.5
8-11


Khaman Maluach
7-0.75
252.8
7-6.75
9-6


Kon Knueppel
6-5
219
6-6.25
8-5.5


Jeremiah Fears
6-2.5
179.6
6-5.25
8-2.5


Kasparas Jakucionis
6-4.75
205.2
6-7.75
8-4


Tre Johnson
6-4.75
190.4
6-10.25
8-5

[RedAzSa]

It's going to be hard for the Hawks to not make the playoffs next year.
This is especially true if the Bucks trade Giannis for young pieces. There are just too many bad teams below them

[CorrectCrusader]

No, I said I haven't watched much of Harper. What bugs me is that, from his scouting report, he's very redundant with Fox and Castle.

They're redundant right out of the gate sure, but I don't expect to see them sharing the floor immediately. Harper will likely lead the bench unit next season if we draft him.
We shouldn't be making any decisions about "fit" when we haven't even seen this team together healthy yet. Just draft Harper and take it slow with him, find out what he is and make your decisions from there. He hasn't even seen an NBA floor yet and we're all making these silly declarations as if they're written in stone.

[CorrectCrusader]

It's going to be hard for the Hawks to not make the playoffs next year.

Zero chance they don't. They're going to be getting better over the next few years not worse (excluding of course injuries). The east is actually horrific, especially with Giannis & Tatum potentially not being there next season.

[Truckules]

Wright somehow got Fox for Collins/Tre and superfluous picks, so I’m gonna hold out for a Giannis scam.

Fox forced his way to SA which is why it was cheap. Giannis is not likely to do the same. It's going to cost something like 2025 #2, 2025 #14, two future Spurs' unprotected firsts, the Atlanta first and swap, Vassell, and Barnes to get Giannis.

[dn0774]

Fox forced his way to SA which is why it was cheap. Giannis is not likely to do the same. It's going to cost something like 2025 #2, 2025 #14, two future Spurs' unprotected firsts, the Atlanta first and swap, Vassell, and Barnes to get Giannis.

Just not worth paying that high on him. I think they “demand” Castle as well and take him out at the 11th hour to try to push a deal over the line. That being said, I don’t think they are going to get the bidding war they think they are; Houston has Amen off limits, Dallas seems ready to build with Flagg, and the dark horse of it all OKC has a solid chance to win the chip in a month which would take them out of the Giannis sweepstakes.