Parker is so non-clutch

[telecomguy]

I got kicked out of the Spursreport forum because early last season, I criticized Parker too much in the administrator's opinion. Basically what I said was that Parker has a very poor court vision & is too one-dimensional (penetrate & layup) to be considered anywhere near the top point-guard in the league. I also stated that I feared Spurs would not go far in the playoffs with Parker directing the offence (I duly noted that Popovich had given Parker much more responsibility for offence as well as green light to shoot more) and his lack of defence. Sure enough, Dallas knocked Spurs off despite heroic effort from Duncan and as USUAL, Parker dissappeared in the key moments in that series.

Watching last night's game reminded me why I get so frustrated watching Parker. The kid has all the natural talent but his basketball IQ or court vision must be very very low. And his inability to play tough in pressure situation is so consistent that I am inclined to believe that he cannot handle pressure in the latter stages of games. If you watch Parker, he always comes out very strong in games or in series only to basically dissappear in the crunch minutes or key games once the opposing defence starts to collapse their defence and prevent him from penetrating. Unlike Nash who can punish you if you back off him, Parker's jump shot is still so unreliable that as soon as the crunch time comes, you can see parker is so reluctant to take the important shots -- always deferring to Manu or Duncan. So effectively, our offence becomes very one-dimensional in key moments because Parker and Bowen dissappears and the only options are Manu and Duncan.

I know many posters love Parker because he is so quick and he can penetrate/finish. Unfortunately, this is not enough for a PG. And also his defence is a quite a big liability. Lastly how come makes so many turnovers in key moments but his steal numbers are so low??? I do not have scientific proof or data to support this but I watch almost all Spurs games and the general impression I have of parker is that he committs way too many mental errors and basically tends to "dissappear" in key moments when the games are close and are hanging in the balance.

I said last year that I can easily name 10 PG that are probably more clutch, and better than Parker.....(i included Hinrich in that list) and everyone at Spursreport laughed at me.

I am not trying to bash parker but it is so surprising how ineffective he becomes in clutch time and how many errors he makes and how little he contributes to the team. Parker playing one-on-five is simply not going to work in playoffs or in crunch time. Especially against an atheletic team like Dallas or even Phoenix. To me, Hinrich, Paul, Nash, Billups, Kidd, Andre Miller, etc etc. or any one of 10 other PG would be a far better fit than Parker. Parker will score...in the early going and then dissappear when the crunch time comes. PG is one of the most important position, and I can't imagine Spurs winning it all this year relying only on Duncan and Manu in key points in the games.

[nkdlunch]

Eventhough Parker was far from being the main culprit of last night. He fucking got owned by Smush at the end.

All night long Smush was being Parker's bitch, and Tony kept going at him. I was like, damn Tony is making Smush look like a chump!

But come in the late 3rd, and all 4th quarter Tony just blew it!!! he kept trying to penetrate and would lose the ball cause he refused to pass. Fucking Tony needs to understand that Smush was ticked off and would not let him penetrate, but still Tony looked confused and would dribble the ball and pass to noone and cause turnovers.

At 4th quarter Smush owned Tony. what an embarrasment.

I would not say Tony is not clutch. But he tends to be one dimensional especially towards the end of games. we basically played w/out a PG for half the 3rd quarter and all the 4th.

[Russ]

In clutch time, teams tend to pack in their D to stop pentration and force outside shots. That hurts TP. In addition, by clutch time he is tired because of the way he plays. As a result, he is less a factor in clutch time than we would like. Overall, however, his play is a big plus and, as he gains experience, he will probably get better at adjusting to the packed in D.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Watching last night's game reminded me why I get so frustrated watching Parker. The kid has all the natural talent but his basketball IQ or court vision must be very very low. And his inability to play tough in pressure situation is so consistent that I am inclined to believe that he cannot handle pressure in the latter stages of games. If you watch Parker, he always comes out very strong in games or in series only to basically dissappear in the crunch minutes or key games once the opposing defence starts to collapse their defence and prevent him from penetrating. Unlike Nash who can punish you if you back off him, Parker's jump shot is still so unreliable that as soon as the crunch time comes, you can see parker is so reluctant to take the important shots -- always deferring to Manu or Duncan. So effectively, our offence becomes very one-dimensional in key moments because Parker and Bowen dissappears and the only options are Manu and Duncan.

I know many posters love Parker because he is so quick and he can penetrate/finish. Unfortunately, this is not enough for a PG. And also his defence is a quite a big liability. Lastly how come makes so many turnovers in key moments but his steal numbers are so low??? I do not have scientific proof or data to support this but I watch almost all Spurs games and the general impression I have of parker is that he committs way too many mental errors and basically tends to "dissappear" in key moments when the games are close and are hanging in the balance.

I said last year that I can easily name 10 PG that are probably more clutch, and better than Parker.....(i included Hinrich in that list) and everyone at Spursreport laughed at me.

I am not trying to bash parker but it is so surprising how ineffective he becomes in clutch time and how many errors he makes and how little he contributes to the team. Parker playing one-on-five is simply not going to work in playoffs or in crunch time. Especially against an atheletic team like Dallas or even Phoenix. To me, Hinrich, Paul, Nash, Billups, Kidd, Andre Miller, etc etc. or any one of 10 other PG would be a far better fit than Parker. Parker will score...in the early going and then dissappear when the crunch time comes. PG is one of the most important position, and I can't imagine Spurs winning it all this year relying only on Duncan and Manu in key points in the games.





There are many of us here who are not enamored with TP including myself. Beware though there are many folks on this board who will defend the guy until the bitter end. I agree with your take.

[Solid D]

Welcome aboard, telecomguy.

I don't think your observations and feelings are off base at all, although TP has come up clutch in a few games. I thought Tony played very well but he does wear down. That's why his stats are nearly always front-loaded (first 24 minutes). He's a scorer and not a true point guard but he's making small strides in developing into a playmaker.

He seems to have a difficult time deciding in transition on what he is going to do until he loses his angles. If the guy leading the break doesn't give the ball up by the time he reaches the FT line, the angles disappear and the guy will probably be better off shooting himself. That's what happened in a key 2-on-1 (Tony and Manu on Smush) late in the game, with all the momentum with the Spurs. Passing to Manu running the rt. wing was the right choice but TP decided too late and Smush blew the play up. That was BIG for the Lakers to stop their bleeding.

The Spurs absolutely need a backup to spot Tony for 12 minutes a game and Beno has really missed a great opportunity to fill that glaring need. His shot is the worst it's looked since Beno's been a Spur. His defense is soft on opposing PGs. Brent Barry can't backup the 1 consistently.


Maybe Tony will continue to improve his decision-making. We can only hope. If he doesn't, the Spurs will need to get them an additional playmaker to augment Manu.

[telecomguy]

so WHY does Parker waste all his energy going end-to-end to get all his points in the frist 2 or 3 quarters and then have NOTHING left for the key 4th quarter? This happens time and time again in close games where he tends to either dissappear completely or makes lot of errors in key moments. A supposed top PG like Tony playng on one of the elite teams CANNOT continue to choke and dissappear in the 4th quarter. This is exactly why Tony needs to play more of a point guard game througout the entire game so that he conserve his energy when the team needs him the most i.e. 4th quarter.

Ask yourself this question. How many does has Tony penetrated against 2, 3, sometimes 4 defenders and then at the last second, dish off to Duncan or another Spur for an easy layup? Nash and Kidd does this ALL THE TIME. This saves them from wear & tear but more importantly, guys like Amare shoots 65% because he ends up getting eash dunks and layups all the time due to Nash's PG play.

Also Tony's defense has to improve. He rarely makes important steals or rarely puts enough pressure on his man. Think of Jason Terry in the playoffs last year. He owned Tony and was one of the main reason why Spurs lost the series. I can't remember how many times Tony would get lost in a P 'n Roll with Jason getting easy baskets off Tony who would either lose Terry or get so far underneath the screen (he doesn't ever fight through screens) that Terry would get uncontested jump shots after jump shots or end up getting isolated with Duncan or Oberto who cannot keep up with his quickness. Tony again needs to SAVE his energy so he can spend some of that in DEFENCE and scoring in the FOURTH QUARTER when we desperately need him when Duncan gets double or triple teamed or they close off Manu's lanes. To me Parker's points are misleading because he gets most of them in the first half or first 3 quarters. The game is won in the 4th quarter. That is the time to step up....until then, use all the players to play the entire game so you don't dissappear in the 4th quarter.

[smeagol]

It's all Tony's fault :rolleyes

[cheguevara]

It's all Tony's fault :rolleyes

great insight. :rolleyes

if you actually watched the games, you would see that many valid points here. this is a discussion forum isn't it?

[Solid D]

Tony, Manu and Tim need to be the guys who carry the team. Tony does...he really does... but he needs to rest too. The backup must not drop the baton.

[telecomguy]

He seems to have a difficult time deciding in transition on what he is going to do until he loses his angles. If the guy leading the break doesn't give the ball up by the time he reaches the FT line, the angles disappear and the guy will probably be better off shooting himself. That's what happened in a key 2-on-1 (Tony and Manu on Smush) late in the game, with all the momentum with the Spurs. Passing to Manu running the rt. wing was the right choice but TP decided too late and Smush blew the play up. That was BIG for the Lakers to stop their bleeding.

The Spurs absolutely need a backup to spot Tony for 12 minutes a game and Beno has really missed a great opportunity to fill that glaring need. His shot is the worst it's looked since Beno's been a Spur. His defense is soft on opposing PGs. Brent Barry can't backup the 1 consistently.


Maybe Tony will continue to improve his decision-making. We can only hope. If he doesn't, the Spurs will need to get them an additional playmaker to augment Manu.[/QUOTE]


I hope so. I really love the Spurs have been following them for years and it pains me to see them become so one-dimensional. One of the problem that Tony has is that he doesn't KNOW when to slow down and attack the paint in a CONTROLLED manner. Sometimes he needs to realize that the angles aren't there as you suggested or that he is likely going to run into shot blockers and at that point, make the smart decision to backtrack or dish it off rather than trying to FORCE a play. Lot of his turnovers are not even forced turnovers but ones he creates himself. He has to learn to play more under control and not be hell-bent to get to the rim EVERY SINGLE time. He wants to be an all-star and a superstar but that is not how you win the ring. This is a team guy the last time I checked and until Tony learns to use his other players more effectively, Spurs are going to have a tough time scoring in the crunch with just Duncan & Manu.

Let me put it this way. I would rather have Tony score 5 points a game less if that means he has few more assists and more importantly, have enough gas left to score lot of his points in the 4th Quarter when the games are quite often decided.

[Rick Von Braun]

He seems to have a difficult time deciding in transition on what he is going to do until he loses his angles. If the guy leading the break doesn't give the ball up by the time he reaches the FT line, the angles disappear and the guy will probably be better off shooting himself. That's what happened in a key 2-on-1 (Tony and Manu on Smush) late in the game, with all the momentum with the Spurs. Passing to Manu running the rt. wing was the right choice but TP decided too late and Smush blew the play up. That was BIG for the Lakers to stop their bleeding.

Bingo!

That was the beginning of the end last night.

[George Gervin's Afro]

It's all Tony's fault :rolleyes


In other words you don't watch any Spurs games

[Mr. Body]

I got kicked out of the Spursreport forum because early last season, I criticized Parker too much in the administrator's opinion. Basically what I said was that Parker has a very poor court vision & is too one-dimensional (penetrate & layup) to be considered anywhere near the top point-guard in the league.

There are a number around here who think we'll build around hiim after Duncan is gone, like he's some kind of franchise guy, when he's absolutely not.

[AFBlue]

When no one else steps up, Tony sometimes does force the action. But I think his aggressiveness and willingness to have the ball in his hands can be a positive trait. He does need to defer more, but give this kid some credit...and TIME. He's only 24 and has improved his game every year in this league.

Side note: It pissed me off yesterday when Hubie said he'd never average over 6 assists a game. I call bullshit on that. As Tim's game declines, the ball will be in Tony's hands more often and he can choose to shoot or pass more often. As time goes on, either his scoring goes up or his assists do...or both.

[Mr. Body]

As Tim's game declines, the ball will be in Tony's hands more often and he can choose to shoot or pass more often. As time goes on, either his scoring goes up or his assists do...or both.

Or his turnovers.

[AFBlue]

There are a number around here who think we'll build around hiim after Duncan is gone, like he's some kind of franchise guy, when he's absolutely not.

Yeah...that'd be me. I don't see his "clutchness" as a factor that can't be changed with time.

[AFBlue]

Or his turnovers.

Maybe all three.

[Mr. Body]

I don't think it's a factor of clutchness. There are and have been franchise guys who weren't clutch. I just don't see in any way that Parker is a franchise player. Was Kevin Johnson a franchise player? Absolutely not, and he was leagues better than Parker is. Building a team around Parker is ludicrous. It's practically nonsensical. What are you building around, exactly?

[telecomguy]

There are a number around here who think we'll build around hiim after Duncan is gone, like he's some kind of franchise guy, when he's absolutely not.


Don't get me wrong....I think Tony is an incrediblly talented player (i mean his ability to finish is just amazing) but the problem is that he is not playing a specialist role. He is a POINT GUARD. A point guard cannot just be a one-dimensional player because he handles the ball so much and is effectively the quarterback of the team. It is as if a football team has a quarterback who cannot throw the ball and can only run the ball. Can you imagine having a quarterback who can't pass? What will happen is that once the defence figures out in the 4th quarter that the quarterback cannot pass worth his beans, they will stack the line and clog up the middle to make sure the quarterback doesn't get any sneak runs anymore.....and there goes the game.

Tony has to be more than a penetrator (actually if he could keep this up to end of the game that would be fine but reality is that by 4th quarter he is finished). He has to facilitate and use everyone. Bowen can be one-dimensional and get away with it because he is a specialist but Parker has to make the other players more effective because he has the ball 80% of the time. If all he is doing is using his own players as pylons to get his pts. early in the game and then dissappear in the end, what is the point??

[objective]

Parker hasn't cut his turnovers down over his career. They always pop up most glaringly in the 4th.

[leemajors]

In other words you don't watch any Spurs games

that one just flew over your head.

[Mr. Body]

Well, he has to use his own players as slalom pylons for three quarters because practically no one else on this team can get their own baskets. I don't really fault Parker for getting his - it's what Pop wants him to do and what we need him to do.

[KB24]

Owned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[telecomguy]

Well, he has to use his own players as slalom pylons for three quarters because practically no one else on this team can get their own baskets. I don't really fault Parker for getting his - it's what Pop wants him to do and what we need him to do.

EXCUSE ME but isn't that the exact point? If we had a true PG, the other Spurs players would NOT have to create their own shot/basket. For you to say that Tony has to play solo because no one else can score is totally ridiculous. Tony is the PG who should be making the other players more effective so that they DON"T HAVE to try to score on their own. That is exactly what the pg is supposed to do.

[George Gervin's Afro]

My point of view on TP is well documented on this board and have been told that:

My take will never be taken seriously anymore because of my irrational hating of TP

My lack of basketball knowledge

you get the idea but it boils down to what you expect from your point guard.

TAKE CARE OF THE F*CKING BALL

The end of the 3rd qtr is what drives me nuts about TP.. he was responsible for 2 of the 3 turnovers in the final 2 minutes and they resulted in 6 points.. the game went from 6 point lead and momentum to a 2 point deficit and lakers having momentum..

we finally get the lead at 91-90 and actually have the opportunity to increase the lead with 2 minutes left..TP runs up court misses manu on the wing and turns the ball over.. guess what? you bet the lakers take the game over from there..

TP is not soley responsible for this loss or any others for that matter but his 4th qtr play sucks.. his line looked great last night but how many points did he score in the second half? how many turnovers did he have in the second half? Did they outnumber his points?

[leemajors]

EXCUSE ME but isn't that the exact point? If we had a true PG, the other Spurs players would NOT have to create their own shot/basket. For you to say that Tony has to play solo because no one else can score is totally ridiculous. Tony is the PG who should be making the other players more effective so that they DON"T HAVE to try to score on their own. That is exactly what the pg is supposed to do.

pg needs are different for each team/personnel. tony is the pg but plenty of other players handle the ball a lot. the spurs don't need a kidd/nash type pg.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Don't get me wrong....I think Tony is an incrediblly talented player (i mean his ability to finish is just amazing) but the problem is that he is not playing a specialist role. He is a POINT GUARD. A point guard cannot just be a one-dimensional player because he handles the ball so much and is effectively the quarterback of the team. It is as if a football team has a quarterback who cannot throw the ball and can only run the ball. Can you imagine having a quarterback who can't pass? What will happen is that once the defence figures out in the 4th quarter that the quarterback cannot pass worth his beans, they will stack the line and clog up the middle to make sure the quarterback doesn't get any sneak runs anymore.....and there goes the game.

Tony has to be more than a penetrator (actually if he could keep this up to end of the game that would be fine but reality is that by 4th quarter he is finished). He has to facilitate and use everyone. Bowen can be one-dimensional and get away with it because he is a specialist but Parker has to make the other players more effective because he has the ball 80% of the time. If all he is doing is using his own players as pylons to get his pts. early in the game and then dissappear in the end, what is the point??


Hey dude this is scary..I actually brought up the sameQB analogy when complaining about TP...

[SoCal Lakeshow]

Since all I hear about is how much Tony Parker sucks. How about this trade?

Farmar, Cook, Mihm, Mckie, and 2007 first for Parker.

Trade him to the Lakers. :smokin

[AFBlue]

What are you building around, exactly?

A 24yr old speedster who can slice through the lane at will and finishes better than almost anyone in this league. A guy who has improved pieces of his game each year. A guy who is aggressive and confident, yet doesn't mind getting his ass chewed. People on this forum don't give Parker enough credit, so maybe I overcompensate...but I am optomistic about what this kid brings to the table already and could potentially bring to the Spurs in the future.

There IS alot to like, don't know why you refuse to see it.

[George Gervin's Afro]

A 24yr old speedster who can slice through the lane at will and finishes better than almost anyone in this league. A guy who has improved pieces of his game each year. A guy who is aggressive and confident, yet doesn't mind getting his ass chewed. People on this forum don't give Parker enough credit, so maybe I overcompensate...but I am optomistic about what this kid brings to the table already and could potentially bring to the Spurs in the future.

There IS alot to like, don't know why you refuse to see it.


So what happens when teams collapse in the lane. Then what? I think we are all waiting for the what.

[Mr. Body]

EXCUSE ME but isn't that the exact point? If we had a true PG, the other Spurs players would NOT have to create their own shot/basket. For you to say that Tony has to play solo because no one else can score is totally ridiculous. Tony is the PG who should be making the other players more effective so that they DON"T HAVE to try to score on their own. That is exactly what the pg is supposed to do.

Not really. Parker is a shoot-first point guard. That should be obvious. Only two other players on this entire team can score on their own: Duncan and Ginobili. The rest, even if they can score on their own, cannot score in volume. Not at all. Ginobili is injury prone and so is held back a little by design, but will get his. Duncan will get his, but those are not enough. By design Parker is unleashed and told to go to the rack whenever he can.

I never said Parker has the point guard talent of making other players around him better. In fact, I manifestly maintain he DOES NOT have this talent. It doesn't make him a bad player, necessarily, because he does other things well.

[fitzgerald]

I know I will be criticized but Parker is in the class of all the other shooting point guards. Francis, Marbury, Iverson, etc. They don't make the team better around them. They just can score and are very difficult to stop. They don't play defense as well. Iverson at least anticipates and gets many steals. Give me a passing point guard any day. Magic Johnson, Stockton, Nash, Kidd etc.

[telecomguy]

pg needs are different for each team/personnel. tony is the pg but plenty of other players handle the ball a lot. the spurs don't need a kidd/nash type pg.

yes but Tony is SO ONE DIMENSIONAL that effectively we have no point guard period. Again even then, i wouldn't mind it if tony would not dissappear in the 4th so often. No top player dissappears as fast as Tony does....and not only does he dissappear but he makes lot of errors and his defence becomes atrocious in the latter stages of the games because he wastes so much energy trying to "carry" the team in the first 3 qtrs.

He just needs to play smarter, under control, and be more consistent from quarter to quarter, game to game, and not have huge chunks of quarters or even games where he basically is either a non-factor (i.e Chicago game) or even a liability (Dallas series last year or last night's 4th quarter).

He has all the tools, athleticism and talent physically......now he just has to work on his jumpers (still unreliable), basketball IQ and focus/toughness in the clutch time because they all suck right now.

[AFBlue]

So what happens when teams collapse in the lane. Then what? I think we are all waiting for the what.

Yeah don't know if you watch many games, but he hits the 18-20ft shot with regularity now. Games like Chicago are the exception rather than the rule. He works hard with Chip Engelland to get better. He could work over this summer to push that 20 footer out another few feet and then he'd have a reliable three-point shot.

Again, he's 24 and improving...what makes you think he can't work on his shot?

[Mr. Body]

A 24yr old speedster who can slice through the lane at will and finishes better than almost anyone in this league. A guy who has improved pieces of his game each year. A guy who is aggressive and confident, yet doesn't mind getting his ass chewed. People on this forum don't give Parker enough credit, so maybe I overcompensate...but I am optomistic about what this kid brings to the table already and could potentially bring to the Spurs in the future.

There IS alot to like, don't know why you refuse to see it.

That's a great talent and Tony's a talented guy, but you can't build around a guy like that. We're not talking Gilbert Arenas here. Tony Parker is not a nexus around which other players can design their games. In fact, the way he plays usually stagnates offenses, although that can change according to personnel. He is resolutely a second tier player and will always be a second tier player. It'd be like building a team around Sean Elliott. Why on earth? And how?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yeah don't know if you watch many games, but he hits the 18-20ft shot with regularity now. Games like Chicago are the exception rather than the rule. He works hard with Chip Engelland to get better. He could work over this summer to push that 20 footer out another few feet and then he'd have a reliable three-point shot.

Again, he's 24 and improving...what makes you think he can't work on his shot?


I won't argue your point but how exactly will we be able to build around him?

[bdictjames]

I like last year's Tony better, his shot was unreliable but his penetrating skills were whack

[AFBlue]

yes but Tony is SO ONE DIMENSIONAL that effectively we have no point guard period. Again even then, i wouldn't mind it if tony would not dissappear in the 4th so often. No top player dissappears as fast as Tony does....and not only does he dissappear but he makes lot of errors and his defence becomes atrocious in the latter stages of the games because he wastes so much energy trying to "carry" the team in the first 3 qtrs.

He just needs to play smarter, under control, and be more consistent from quarter to quarter, game to game, and not have huge chunks of quarters or even games where he basically is either a non-factor (i.e Chicago game) or even a liability (Dallas series last year or last night's 4th quarter).

He has all the tools, athleticism and talent physically......now he just has to work on his jumpers (still unreliable), basketball IQ and focus/toughness in the clutch time because they all suck right now.

The first option on offense is Tim Duncan, and it's been that way for years. That means everything funnels through him and he takes it to the rim or draws a double-team and distributes.

Tony can drive to the rim and I've seen him get better with passing to the low-post while driving and drawing defenders...but admittedly he's not great at it right now. That doesn't mean he never will be.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Join the club, buddy.

I'm not going to relive the cruel injustices of SR on me...but needless to say you're not alone here. There's no loveloss for SR here.

[Spurminator]

Since when is "a player that can be built around" the standard for a Spurs point guard on the same team with Tim Duncan? How many point guards in the league qualify for that label? And what are they being paid right now?

[telecomguy]

Join the club, buddy.

I'm not going to relive the cruel injustices of SR on me...but needless to say you're not alone here. There's no loveloss for SR here.

What i found funny was the reason for banning me! I mean, I never swore, never showed disrespect or never got into fights with anyone. Just because I stated an opinion and posted too many times (according to Dizz G, the administrator), they decide to ban me. Pretty juvenile behaviour.

[Kori Ellis]

Short explanation - take it for what it's worth:

Tony "wasting" his energy trying to carry the team for the first 3 quarters has always been by design. Tony was told to score and early and then late defer to Tim/Manu. This year, they are actually changing that and trying to have Tony be involved in scoring late too. And some games he does fine. Other games, like last night, he makes mistakes. For the last few years he hasn't been part of the scoring in 4th quarters because that was left for Manu and Tim.

But realize, that most of what Tony does is by design. Yes, he still gets tunnel vision at times. Last night on the 2-on-1 break, he was going to pass to Manu, but he was too late.

He's never going to be a guy who regularly gets 15/10. The Spurs don't use him that way. He's a scoring point guard who they want to score even more.

Take the fact that last year in the playoffs when he was shooting 17 times a game, Pop wanted him to shoot 25 times a game.

Your criticism of Tony's play (though his mistakes are not as frequent as some in this thread suggest) is not off base. But take into account that most of what he does is because of how the Spurs have chosen to use him in the past.

[cheguevara]

Since all I hear about is how much Tony Parker sucks. How about this trade?

Farmar, Cook, Mihm, Mckie, and 2007 first for Parker.

Trade him to the Lakers. :smokin

a bunch of trash for paker? no thanks



that is a good point though. telecomguy, understand there really aren't any better PGs out there for us. PG is the hardest position to fill, look what the Lakers have for a PG. a fucking dude called Smush who is no better than the worse PG in the league.

So I would not blame the whole thing on Parker. Shit we won 2 rings with a lesser Parker in the past.

We need to worry about the bigger things: taking care of the ball, rebounding, playing the full 48 minutes and somehow getting a decent bench.

that asshole Pop needs to take the team back to the basics. WTF are they doing in practice???? that's what I wanna know.

[Spurminator]

You won't get banned here, but if you want your opinion to carry any weight, just don't be the guy that posts a Parker bashing thread after every game. Pick your timing.

Your timing here was good. If you had posted this after a game where, say, Parker scored 14 4th quarter points but the Spurs gave up 38 points in the same quarter, and you blamed the loss on Parker? That's bad timing.

[telecomguy]

Short explanation - take it for what it's worth:

Tony "wasting" his energy trying to carry the team for the first 3 quarters has always been by design. Tony was told to score and early and then late defer to Tim/Manu. This year, they are actually changing that and trying to have Tony be involved in scoring late too. And some games he does fine. Other games, like last night, he makes mistakes. For the last few years he hasn't been part of the scoring in 4th quarters because that was left for Manu and Tim.

But realize, that most of what Tony does is by design. Yes, he still gets tunnel vision at times. Last night on the 2-on-1 break, he was going to pass to Manu, but he was too late.

He's never going to be a guy who regularly gets 15/10. The Spurs don't use him that way. He's a scoring point guard who they want to score even more.

Take the fact that last year in the playoffs when he was shooting 17 times a game, Pop wanted him to shoot 25 times a game.

Your criticism of Tony's play (though his mistakes are not as frequent as some in this thread suggest) is not off base. But take into account that most of what he does is because of how the Spurs have chosen to use him in the past.


I have a hard time believing this. Why play so predictably? Should the Spurs not play a balanced game where they take what the defence gives them? Why have such a simplistic game plan where Parker tries to go solo and do end-to-end penetrate-layups for the first 3 qtrs and then dissappear for the 4th quarter for Duncan and Manu to do THEIR solo act? I cannot believe that Pop would ever tell Tony that this is the game plan. Why not have Parker play an intelligent game the ENTIRE game and use a balanced attack throughout the game so that the offence doesn't go out of sync or grind down to watching parker skitter around or post Duncan every single time in the 4th qtr because tony has dissappeared (or by design???). Nash or other smart PG's will take what the defence gives him. He will score if they deny the outlet pass and pass when they go after him aggressively and it doesn't matter if the game is in the 1st qtr or the last qtr. Nash and other top PG play exactly the same way the entire game.....the smart way where they exploit the personnnel, strategy and what the defence gives them. This is how you play basketball.

[SoCal Lakeshow]

Farmar is a good young rookie PG, Cook is the shooter you guys desperately need, Mihm and Mckie are expiring contracts, and the first rounder is what it is. Not a bad trade for the Spurs at all. But a great trade for the Lakeshow. :clap

[AFBlue]

That's a great talent and Tony's a talented guy, but you can't build around a guy like that. We're not talking Gilbert Arenas here. Tony Parker is not a nexus around which other players can design their games. In fact, the way he plays usually stagnates offenses, although that can change according to personnel. He is resolutely a second tier player and will always be a second tier player. It'd be like building a team around Sean Elliott. Why on earth? And how?

All the players and you brought up Gilbert Arenas? His typical one-on-one play stagnates the offense just as much, if not more than Tony.

And again, the fact that you can definitively say he will "always be a second tier player" boggles my mind. I'm not guaranteeing that he will be a top 5 player in this league, but I think the chances are better that he becomes top 5 than the chances that he stays exactly where he is.

[telecomguy]

a bunch of trash for paker? no thanks



that is a good point though. telecomguy, understand there really aren't any better PGs out there for us. PG is the hardest position to fill, look what the Lakers have for a PG. a fucking dude called Smush who is no better than the worse PG in the league.

So I would not blame the whole thing on Parker. Shit we won 2 rings with a lesser Parker in the past.

We need to worry about the bigger things: taking care of the ball, rebounding, playing the full 48 minutes and somehow getting a decent bench.

that asshole Pop needs to take the team back to the basics. WTF are they doing in practice???? that's what I wanna know.

The only difference (and it's a huge one!) is that on the Laker team, guess WHO handles the ball all the time in the offensive zone. NOT SMUSH but a dude named Kobe. On the Spurs team, PARKER handles the ball most of the time. And what is interesting is that now that Kobe has learned to not ball-hog so much and go solo (and by the way, he is way way more bettter at going solo than Parker because he can hurt you 10 different ways whereas Parker is limited to penetrate - layups due to his horrendous jump shooting inability), Kobe has become far more dangerous because he has made all his teammates so much better.

If KOBE (the ultimate superstar who can go solo) realizes that he has to be more of a PG, than shouldn't Parker not realize even more so considering that Parker is not even 50% of a pure scorer that Kobe is????

[Kori Ellis]

I have a hard time believing this. Why play so predictably? Should the Spurs not play a balanced game where they take what the defence gives them? Why have such a simplistic game plan where Parker tries to go solo and do end-to-end penetrate-layups for the first 3 qtrs and then dissappear for the 4th quarter for Duncan and Manu to do THEIR solo act?

I don't know if "go solo" is the right terminology, but the gameplan in recent years has always been for him to do the majority of his scoring early and then defer to Manu/Tim late. Then, as he developed a better jumpshot, Pop decided that Tony can be another good scoring option late.

[Mr. Body]

telecom -- I don't think you're grasping that Parker is not Steve Nash and cannot do the things he can. What exactly are you talking about, "a balanced game"? Parker isn't capable of much more than what he's doing. Plus, what he's doing is basically the only way the Spurs can run things right now, because they need the points badly.

If your beef is that Parker is not a pass-first point guard in the Kidd/Nash/Stockton mold, then fine. We get it. We know he's not that player. Like many others have told you, he's a shoot-first point guard. He's Francis/Marbury/Kevin Johnson. He has a limited capacity to be a playmaker outside the drive-and-kick mold.

Your other beef seems to be that Parker scores too much and shoots too much. What people are trying to tell you is that the offense is geared this way. If he did not take these shots, we would not be competitive offensively. We only have two other scorers, and those two are limited. Kori is correct: his ball domination is by design.

[telecomguy]

telecom -- I don't think you're grasping that Parker is not Steve Nash and cannot do the things he can. What exactly are you talking about, "a balanced game"? Parker isn't capable of much more than what he's doing. Plus, what he's doing is basically the only way the Spurs can run things right now, because they need the points badly.

If your beef is that Parker is not a pass-first point guard in the Kidd/Nash/Stockton mold, then fine. We get it. We know he's not that player. Like many others have told you, he's a shoot-first point guard. He's Francis/Marbury/Kevin Johnson. He has a limited capacity to be a playmaker outside the drive-and-kick mold.

Your other beef seems to be that Parker scores too much and shoots too much. What people are trying to tell you is that the offense is geared this way. If he did not take these shots, we would not be competitive offensively. We only have two other scorers, and those two are limited. Kori is correct: his ball domination is by design.

Again, if Tony can continue to score and be effective in the 4th quarter and in clutch times, I would have NO PROBLEM. The reality is that he dissappears. And THAT is because the opposing team eventually figures out a way to deny what Parker wants by the 3rd qtr. He cannot just do his thing 2 or 3 qtrs and then dissappear. And if he learned to play the PG role more effectively, the Spurs team would be that much more effective in the crunch time.

[telecomguy]

telecom -- I don't think you're grasping that Parker is not Steve Nash and cannot do the things he can. What exactly are you talking about, "a balanced game"? Parker isn't capable of much more than what he's doing. Plus, what he's doing is basically the only way the Spurs can run things right now, because they need the points badly.

If your beef is that Parker is not a pass-first point guard in the Kidd/Nash/Stockton mold, then fine. We get it. We know he's not that player. Like many others have told you, he's a shoot-first point guard. He's Francis/Marbury/Kevin Johnson. He has a limited capacity to be a playmaker outside the drive-and-kick mold.

Your other beef seems to be that Parker scores too much and shoots too much. What people are trying to tell you is that the offense is geared this way. If he did not take these shots, we would not be competitive offensively. We only have two other scorers, and those two are limited. Kori is correct: his ball domination is by design.

Look...i don't care if Parker never develops into a good PG. If that is the reality, then he needs to handle the ball less. Let him play a pure SG in that case. Get another PG or make Manu into a PG and let HIM CREATE for others and only use Tony as one of the weapons. It is almost as if Tony is the SG AND a PG while the other 4 players stand around. I don't care what we call Tony (SG or PG). The point is that every good team needs someone who can direct the offence, expose weakness, look for lanes, holes, and make good crisp passes to destablize and break down the defence and get the other players easy looks. If Tony can't do it, then get someone else or have another Spur play that role. Manu is one guy that should handle the ball much more in the early going. Does it not strike you that as Tony has started to score more in the past few years and hog the ball more, Manu's effectiveness has gone down? That is not entirely a coincidence even if Manu's injury also had some role.

[mavsluva]

Hey, Michael Jordan missed a shot every now and then. If you expect perfection at all times, then you'll live in failure forever.

[Mr. Body]

Hey, no real complaint here. I think Parker is a good player and understand why we're using him the way we are, but he stagnates everything -- necessarily this year, since everyone else blows -- but he's not nearly the player people think he is and I seriously doubt he somehow becomes the point guard of the future or something. He's fine as a Duncan sidekick. And I wouldn't mind shopping him at some point, if we could be assured of a solid point guard fills in.

[AFBlue]

I won't argue your point but how exactly will we be able to build around him?

Based on the current ideology of the front office:

1) Pay and Overplay aging veterans with diminishing returns using valuable cap space.

2) Draft obscure European talent that is years from contributing and pray they develop as hoped.

3) Take on young, 12th man types in the hope that they develop.

4) Avoid overreaction and steer clear of trades.

Hey, Ian Mahinmi or Butler could be the second coming of David Robinson!

See, I'm not all sunshine and rainbows....

[sabar]

Parker's play is by design, but that doesn't make it immune to criticism. I strongly dislike this setup, and I don't see us winning a championship with it. Parker CANNOT consistantly vanish in the end game. The Spurs CANNOT rely on Tim/Manu to either bringing them out of a hole or to hang onto a lead. Not if they want the championship. If we had a decent backup PG, this would work, but we do not.

[abelle23]

Parker's play is by design, but that doesn't make it immune to criticism. I strongly dislike this setup, and I don't see us winning a championship with it. Parker CANNOT consistantly vanish in the end game. The Spurs CANNOT rely on Tim/Manu to either bringing them out of a hole or to hang onto a lead. Not if they want the championship. If we had a decent backup PG, this would work, but we do not.


and i think its really difficult and is a lot of pressure for manu/tim to create on the 4th when they were deferring/not involve early... you cannot just expect them to turn it up on the 4th everytime (although manu does often) but sometimes it just too late...

[smeagol]

great insight. :rolleyes

if you actually watched the games, you would see that many valid points here. this is a discussion forum isn't it?
Wow.

I'm being bashed for defending Tony?

smeagol = ducks :lol

[smeagol]

Parker's play is by design, but that doesn't make it immune to criticism. I strongly dislike this setup, and I don't see us winning a championship with it. Parker CANNOT consistantly vanish in the end game. The Spurs CANNOT rely on Tim/Manu to either bringing them out of a hole or to hang onto a lead. Not if they want the championship. If we had a decent backup PG, this would work, but we do not.

Parker is not a decent PG?

Are you from Argentina?

[Ronaldo McDonald]

I got kicked out of the Spursreport forum because early last season, I criticized Parker too much in the administrator's opinion. Basically what I said was that Parker has a very poor court vision & is too one-dimensional (penetrate & layup) to be considered anywhere near the top point-guard in the league. I also stated that I feared Spurs would not go far in the playoffs with Parker directing the offence (I duly noted that Popovich had given Parker much more responsibility for offence as well as green light to shoot more) and his lack of defence. Sure enough, Dallas knocked Spurs off despite heroic effort from Duncan and as USUAL, Parker dissappeared in the key moments in that series.

Watching last night's game reminded me why I get so frustrated watching Parker. The kid has all the natural talent but his basketball IQ or court vision must be very very low. And his inability to play tough in pressure situation is so consistent that I am inclined to believe that he cannot handle pressure in the latter stages of games. If you watch Parker, he always comes out very strong in games or in series only to basically dissappear in the crunch minutes or key games once the opposing defence starts to collapse their defence and prevent him from penetrating. Unlike Nash who can punish you if you back off him, Parker's jump shot is still so unreliable that as soon as the crunch time comes, you can see parker is so reluctant to take the important shots -- always deferring to Manu or Duncan. So effectively, our offence becomes very one-dimensional in key moments because Parker and Bowen dissappears and the only options are Manu and Duncan.

I know many posters love Parker because he is so quick and he can penetrate/finish. Unfortunately, this is not enough for a PG. And also his defence is a quite a big liability. Lastly how come makes so many turnovers in key moments but his steal numbers are so low??? I do not have scientific proof or data to support this but I watch almost all Spurs games and the general impression I have of parker is that he committs way too many mental errors and basically tends to "dissappear" in key moments when the games are close and are hanging in the balance.

I said last year that I can easily name 10 PG that are probably more clutch, and better than Parker.....(i included Hinrich in that list) and everyone at Spursreport laughed at me.

I am not trying to bash parker but it is so surprising how ineffective he becomes in clutch time and how many errors he makes and how little he contributes to the team. Parker playing one-on-five is simply not going to work in playoffs or in crunch time. Especially against an atheletic team like Dallas or even Phoenix. To me, Hinrich, Paul, Nash, Billups, Kidd, Andre Miller, etc etc. or any one of 10 other PG would be a far better fit than Parker. Parker will score...in the early going and then dissappear when the crunch time comes. PG is one of the most important position, and I can't imagine Spurs winning it all this year relying only on Duncan and Manu in key points in the games.

Good points, though I think just about everyone can say that his dissapearance late in games isn't anything that has gone unnoticed. He's been terribly un-clutch for basically his whole career, and it's always been a problem, but only a minor one. I think now, though, with the lack of production from other players, including not having a formidable back up that can save his ass late in games (i.e. Speedy Claxton, or even a a guy like antonio daniels) the Spurs have had to rely on him late in games much more than what was the case in the past. Although he has improved in some aspects and has taken some of the scoring load, I think he has done the latter involuntarily; in the last two years it is clear the Spurs don't have enough weapons on offense, and so it isn't a bit ironic that his ppg have gone up...

People keep saying that he has improved, and he has, but in reality the steps he's taken to become a better player have been baby steps...It's not these baby steps toward improvement that account for his percieved enormous improvement on offense, but instead the changes in the make-up of the team that have inevetably thrown more of the scoring load on Parker.

Our expectations of him are too high. He hasn't improved as much as people seem think he has.

[ginobili fan]

give parker just 2 years of perfectionning
:)

[AFBlue]

People keep saying that he has improved, and he has, but in reality the steps he's taken to become a better player have been baby steps...It's not these baby steps toward improvement that account for his percieved enormous improvement on offense, but instead the changes in the make-up of the team that have inevetably thrown more of the scoring load on Parker.

Our expectations of him are too high. He hasn't improved as much as people seem think he has.

Does this team still have Duncan and Manu? Then the make-up hasn't changed that much. Parker didn't get an all-star bid by taking what the defense gave him...he created opportunities for himself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Tony improved in almost every statistical category each year? Some might say that based on historical data, that trend should continue.

[ArgSpursFan]

I love tony,but to me he is more a SG tham a PG.Honestly I think he hurts the team by bieng the Point Guard at clutch time,and I´ll say why:
Remember the 2004-2005 season?
we won our last championship right?
ok,Question:Who had the ball on his hands at clutch time and called the play?
Was it manu? or am I wrong?
I think he was,and I don´t know why that changed last season and this year too.
It looks like Pop feels more secure colling plays for tony and Timmy to finish them, tham Manu does.
I don´t know why a sistem that gave us a championship had to change
Think about it for a sec ,and If you still don´t belive me go to the evidence and watch some playoffs games vids from that season,and you´ll see that the man with the ball on his hand on a very close game was Manu,and now is Tony.
May be Pop feels more confortable right now with the way Tony is playing,and I don´t blame him for that,but Like the other poster said he is not a clutch player.Manu is a clutch player and Thats one of the reazons why all spurs fans love him so much.

[itzsoweezee]

the reason the spurs lost last night's game was b/c parker was not playing. the lakers went on a big run while he sat on the bench.

idiot popovich should be playing parker 40 minutes a night. especially when you have a scrub like udrih backing parker up.

i thought the spurs were going to shorten up the rotation?

and what happened to vaughn? he was playing well when he got some PT and now he never fucking plays.

FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH.

[ArgSpursFan]

give parker just 2 years of perfectionning
:)

Yeah, and let´s give Beno another 15 years of perfectionning if that´s the case

[ArgSpursFan]

the reason the spurs lost last night's game was b/c parker was not playing. the lakers went on a big run while he sat on the bench.

idiot popovich should be playing parker 40 minutes a night. especially when you have a scrub like udrih backing parker up.

i thought the spurs were going to shorten up the rotation?

and what happened to vaughn? he was playing well when he got some PT and now he never fucking plays.

FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH. FUCK POPOVICH.

I think He´ll try to trade beno,thats why he is giving him some minutes, thats all,Pop aint stupid

[AFBlue]

Yeah, and let´s give Beno another 15 years of perfectionning if that´s the case

Parker is averaging almost 20 and 6 this year and Beno is having trouble keeping his spot as second string pg in lieu of a 30+ yr old career third-stringer....tough to compare the two.

Parker needs "polishing", Beno needs a massive overhaul!

[George Gervin's Afro]

Beno is certainly regressing. I wonder if the front office regrets picking up his option for next year.

[diego]

So I would not blame the whole thing on Parker. Shit we won 2 rings with a lesser Parker in the past.

We need to worry about the bigger things: taking care of the ball, rebounding, playing the full 48 minutes and somehow getting a decent bench.

that asshole Pop needs to take the team back to the basics. WTF are they doing in practice???? that's what I wanna know.

I also got banned from SR for trashing parker after the 04 meltdown. Since then, i've come to appreciate the kid's qualities. you cant expect everyone to be perfect, and there is no question that a) parker does more good than bad and b) he does what pop tells him to. Also, the way his shot has improved is remarkable.

I think there are two problems. The larger, is that parker has no decent backup since speedy left, so he tires more and has more pressure to score. this is aggravated by duncan and manu's injury problems.

the smaller, but still important problem, is tony's decision making. I used to think he was incapable of making good passes (it seemed his passes always lacked oomph and were a bit off target making it more difficult for catch-and-shoot guys), but its not that, i think he doesnt trust himself and thinks he is more likely to turn it over passing than dribbling (certainly not the case last night!)

On the other hand, Manu sometimes drives me crazy for the opposite. Last night (i think in the 2nd) there were a couple of close possessions manu had transition opportunities where he made obvious passes to cutters that were deflected when he could have gone in and finished himself. I think you need to have the confidence and judgement to do both, and to not get hung up if you dont succeed.

Manu was pretty clutch last night in the 4th, but he also had a bad turnover in the last 2 min (dribble off the foot) and he also clanked that open 3. Its important to finish games, but you have to put yourself in position to do it.

maybe this deserves its own thread but, Im a spur fan since the 02-03 season and i dont remember kobe ever shooting over 50% against us. it was always that hed get his pts, but at a horrible efficiency, with the occasional game where he wouldnt even break 20. i think that has more to do with duncan than bowen but i digress, have work to do!

**edit: agree with others that manu should be more involved in the early going. i understand pop wants the surprise factor in having manu take over the 4th but it would be a lot better if they shared protagonism from the get go and keep the other team guessing instead of riding tony then throwing manu behind the wheel at the last minute

[gilmor]

Comparing Tony to either Nash or Kobe is insane. They are just different levels of players. Tony will never be as good as Nash or Kobe. Spurs is a 3-man team. Tony is limited in the abilities and talents that he has.

[Mr. Body]

Comparing Tony to either Nash or Kobe is insane. They are just different levels of players. Tony will never be as good as Nash or Kobe. Spurs is a 3-man team. Tony is limited in the abilities and talents that he has.

There are people here who actually believe Tony is a franchise-type player like Nash or Kobe. That's insane.

[AFBlue]

Comparing Tony to either Nash or Kobe is insane. They are just different levels of players. Tony will never be as good as Nash or Kobe. Spurs is a 3-man team. Tony is limited in the abilities and talents that he has.

Interesting that you can say that so confidently about a 24yr old in his 5th season in the league. Tony isn't limited by anything accept his height and has shown the ability to improve those so-called "talents he has."

Pigeonholling a kid when he's this young and has shown the ability/drive to improve is just idiotic. Will he make it to Nash/Kobe level, I dunno, but it IS possible.

[AFBlue]

There are people here who actually believe Tony is a franchise-type player like Nash or Kobe. That's insane.

Kobe is a franchise player? How does a score-first guy like Kobe who has the ability but rarely the drive to make his team better end up in your list of "franchise" player? What exactly do you define as a franchise player?

[nkdlunch]

Kobe is a franchise player, not my kind.

but it's insane some ppl compare him with Jordan :lol

[AFBlue]

Kobe is a franchise player, not my kind.

but it's insane some ppl compare him with Jordan :lol

I'm actually not really debating whether Kobe is or isn't, but Jesse "the body" keeps saying that Parker isn't...but he thinks Kobe is? What makes them different?

[nkdlunch]

I'm actually not really debating whether Kobe is or isn't, but Jesse "the body" keeps saying that Parker isn't...but he thinks Kobe is? What makes them different?

are you fucking serious?? Kobe can take over games 4th quarter, OT, no matter. Parker looks great but not in crunch time.

not to mention Kobe is 10x the individual player Parker will ever be.

[ArgSpursFan]

I tough we were debating whether Tony is or isn´t a clutch type of player.

He is a very good player,no doubt,but the question is : does he have what it takes to grab the ball and make a play to eather shoot, penetrate or find the open man to win a game?
I think he doesn´t right now,may be in a couple more years ,but right now,they shold give the ball eather to Tim or Manu.

[beachbarbie948]

There are many of us here who are not enamored with TP including myself. Beware though there are many folks on this board who will defend the guy until the bitter end. I agree with your take.

amen

[1Parker1]

Parker's not perfect, but then again, I don't know of any PG in the league who isn't without his faults:

Nash: His TO's per game are very high. His defense is piss-poor.
Kidd: Not the best shooter, is inconsistent. Has health issues.
AI: One dimensional scoring guard. Plays no defense.
Arenas: See above.
Heinrich: Shooting % low. Also very inconsistent.

What other "top PG's" are there in the league? Tony made crappy mistakes last night as everyone mentioned, but people are exagerrating that he "got owned" by Smush Parker there towards the end. Also, if you'll notice, Tim, Manu, and Tony all three made complete BS mistakes that ultimately cost us the game. And why? Well because it's getting easier and easier for teams to defend them since no one else on the team does anything. Teams can now afford to double those guys and leave guys like Finley/Horry/Barry/Beno open. If they start hitting their shots, Manu/Tony/Tim would make less forced mistakes, IMO.

Tony has a lot to improve on, but he's just 24. He fits into the Spurs system perfectly. Right now, with the way our bench and Bruce is playing, I don't think even Steve Nash could average more than 6 assists with this team...

[ArgSpursFan]

he "got owned" by Smush Parker there towards the end. Also, if you'll notice, Tim, Manu, and Tony all three made complete BS mistakes that ultimately cost us the game. And why?



That´s right,Manu a Tony made some mistakes cause Tony was runnig the play.

I think that they should move him to the SG position with 1minute or so reminding and let manu get the ball and call the plays.Them he can actually be more productive without the ball,to find an open shot and win a game

[1Parker1]

That´s right,Manu a Tony made some mistakes cause Tony was runnig the play.

I think that they should move him to the SG position with 1minute or so reminding and let manu get the ball and call the plays.Them he can actually be more productive without the ball,to find an open shot and win a game


Not that I am arguing against this idea, but my point is that even Manu has been struggling to make the "Right play or find an open shot to win a game" this season. Mainly because as I mentioned, Spurs have 3 players who can score right now and teams can afford to double team them. And the Spurs are just playing so out of sync right now as if this is the first time they've all played together or something.

[nkdlunch]

That´s right,Manu a Tony made some mistakes cause Tony was runnig the play.

I think that they should move him to the SG position with 1minute or so reminding and let manu get the ball and call the plays.Them he can actually be more productive without the ball,to find an open shot and win a game

:lmao are you seriously blaming Tony for Manu/Duncan's TOs???

it's so obvious u a Tony hater. Cause if anyone should be blamed for last night's loss it should be Manu. He had the most horrible turnovers and was asleep for 3 quarters.

[ArgSpursFan]

:lmao are you seriously blaming Tony for Manu/Duncan's TOs???

it's so obvious u a Tony hater. Cause if anyone should be blamed for last night's loss it should be Manu. He had the most horrible turnovers and was asleep for 3 quarters.

Hey,I´m not a Tony hater at all, Just want the spurs to win a damn game.Like a said before the guy is a great player,but what we are arguing here is wherer he is or isn´t productive with the ball in his hands at clutch time.
I truelly think that he can be more productive without the ball and trying to find an open spot to eather penetrate or shoot .

[SequSpur]

Tony Parker is the only fukin reason the Spurs have a winning record this year... WTF? Some of you don't know shit about basketball....

FukinA

[SequSpur]

For one.. the Spurs run their offense through Bruce Bowen. That's the fukin problem, he is the first option for the pass, that is why Parker gets no fukin assists. It's a Pop system problem... then Bowen becomes Kobe and tries to take people off the dribble...

somebody wake me up... what a fukin nightmare.. Now Bowen is our Kobe.. holy shit.

[1Parker1]

Hey,I´m not a Tony hater at all, Just want the spurs to win a damn game.Like a said before the guy is a great player,but what we are arguing here is wherer he is or isn´t productive with the ball in his hands at clutch time.
I truelly think that he can be more productive without the ball and trying to find an open spot to eather penetrate or shoot .


My question is, how do you know?? Tony doesn't often get the chance to have the ball in his hands and be the first option in a play at the end of close games. That is usually Manu's job to penetrate and find an open spot or shoot.

Tony's given glimpses that he can be clutch. Although I still trust Manu more, I don't think Parker's gotten his fair share of times to prove himself in this type of situation for us to judge him.

[SequSpur]

Bowen had 4 shot attempts in the first 3 minutes of the game. Manu didn't get one until the 2nd quarter... WTF is up with that?

[gilmor]

Interesting that you can say that so confidently about a 24yr old in his 5th season in the league. Tony isn't limited by anything accept his height and has shown the ability to improve those so-called "talents he has."

Pigeonholling a kid when he's this young and has shown the ability/drive to improve is just idiotic. Will he make it to Nash/Kobe level, I dunno, but it IS possible.

It is the truth. Even though Tony is just 24, he will never be at the same level as Kobe or Nash.

Tony is just a very good basketball player. But he is no where near the superstar level as Kobe or Nash.

Don't get be wrong. I love Tony. I cringe every time that he is being criticised. But I have also learn to accept his limitations.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not going to read this damn thread, because it is the same damn thing over and over. Parker doesn't know when to pass, he slows down at the end of the game, and he doesn't play the point guard position the way it should be played.

I don't know how many times it has to be said on this board, but here it goes one more time


PARKER PLAYS THE PG POSITION THE WAY HE IS ASKED TO PLAY IT BY POP.

He's not going to be a pure point guard, EVER. So just forget about it! He's always going to be a score first/pass second point guard, and thats the way he's asked to play. He's not Steve Nash, He's not Jason Kidd, and He's not John Stockton so will you all please stop insinuating thats what he needs to be.

Secondly, its easy to focus more on his mistakes in the fourth quarter as last night. But the truth is that the Spurs didn't lose the game on Tony's late turnovers. They lost it with all of the crappy play throughout the game. Tony makes mistakes, and no one here will deny that, but the fact is that so many people here don't understand that many of those so called mistakes are just Tony doing what is asked of him.

Secondly, Tony gets shit for mistakes that aren't even his. The 2nd TO late last night was on Manu. He waited far too long to start his cut and by the time he was starting to go backdoor Tony was already passing him the ball to isolate up top. Thats not on Tony, thats actually on Manu but how many people here actually catch the nuances of late cuts and/or stopped cuts and how that fucks the passer?

Listening to people bitch about Tony Parker is like listening to people bitch about David Robinson. Neither are/were perfect, but they are so far above the average it isn't even funny.

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, those of you that are critical of Parker should step up to the plate with a list of point guards you would rather have on this team.

[2centsworth]

Listening to people bitch about Tony Parker is like listening to people bitch about David Robinson.

that's a really good comparison. People fail to realize that Tony's strengths are what make the Spurs very good.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Parker's not perfect, but then again, I don't know of any PG in the league who isn't without his faults:

Nash: His TO's per game are very high. His defense is piss-poor.
Kidd: Not the best shooter, is inconsistent. Has health issues.
AI: One dimensional scoring guard. Plays no defense.
Arenas: See above.
Heinrich: Shooting % low. Also very inconsistent.

What other "top PG's" are there in the league? Tony made crappy mistakes last night as everyone mentioned, but people are exagerrating that he "got owned" by Smush Parker there towards the end. Also, if you'll notice, Tim, Manu, and Tony all three made complete BS mistakes that ultimately cost us the game. And why? Well because it's getting easier and easier for teams to defend them since no one else on the team does anything. Teams can now afford to double those guys and leave guys like Finley/Horry/Barry/Beno open. If they start hitting their shots, Manu/Tony/Tim would make less forced mistakes, IMO.

Tony has a lot to improve on, but he's just 24. He fits into the Spurs system perfectly. Right now, with the way our bench and Bruce is playing, I don't think even Steve Nash could average more than 6 assists with this team...


Parker' flaws of just not showing up at all in crunch time are much worse than any of the flaws of the guards you mentioned above.

having said that, yes, he is young and has a lot of room for improvement (which he is doing better by the season)

He still lacks a perimeter game (one which shows up once every 4 games) and if you clog the lane he is absolutely useless.

It's a shame basketball had to be 48 minutes instead of 24

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I'm not going to read this damn thread, because it is the same damn thing over and over. Parker doesn't know when to pass, he slows down at the end of the game, and he doesn't play the point guard position the way it should be played.

I don't know how many times it has to be said on this board, but here it goes one more time


PARKER PLAYS THE PG POSITION THE WAY HE IS ASKED TO PLAY IT BY POP.

He's not going to be a pure point guard, EVER. So just forget about it! He's always going to be a score first/pass second point guard, and thats the way he's asked to play. He's not Steve Nash, He's not Jason Kidd, and He's not John Stockton so will you all please stop insinuating thats what he needs to be.

Secondly, its easy to focus more on his mistakes in the fourth quarter as last night. But the truth is that the Spurs didn't lose the game on Tony's late turnovers. They lost it with all of the crappy play throughout the game. Tony makes mistakes, and no one here will deny that, but the fact is that so many people here don't understand that many of those so called mistakes are just Tony doing what is asked of him.

Secondly, Tony gets shit for mistakes that aren't even his. The 2nd TO late last night was on Manu. He waited far too long to start his cut and by the time he was starting to go backdoor Tony was already passing him the ball to isolate up top. Thats not on Tony, thats actually on Manu but how many people here actually catch the nuances of late cuts and/or stopped cuts and how that fucks the passer?

Listening to people bitch about Tony Parker is like listening to people bitch about David Robinson. Neither are/were perfect, but they are so far above the average it isn't even funny.


I dont know about everyone else but I'm certainly not asking for a Parker trade, and there are only a few PG's in the league I'd trade for Parker (none of which are reasonably available) but he is easily the most frustrating player out of the big three.

[MannyIsGod]

The most frustrating player out of the big three wears 21. Thats not even comparable.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The most frustrating player out of the big three wears 21. Thats not even comparable.

actually, you are right the more I think about it

[1Parker1]

It's a shame basketball had to be 48 minutes instead of 24


Where was Duncan in the Final 24 minutes of the game last night? Where was Manu for the first 3 quarters of the game last night? Where was the bench the past 25 games?

Nobody on the Spurs has played good basketball this season for a full 48 minutes. Don't put that on Parker alone.

[2centsworth]

Tim Duncan is coasting and trying to stay healthy. That's not frustrating to me.

The big 3 are off limits to me, it's the rest of the scrubs that frustrate me.

[1Parker1]

The big 3 are off limits to me, it's the rest of the scrubs that frustrate me.

:tu Pretty much.

[nkdlunch]

Tim Duncan is coasting and trying to stay healthy. That's not frustrating to me.

The big 3 are off limits to me, it's the rest of the scrubs that frustrate me.

exactly. Its freaking january, Duncan is gonna kill in the playoffs just like last year. Manu will also be the same playoff Manu it looks like. And parker seems like he's improving from last year.

its the fucking shitty rest of the team + Pop that really piss me off too.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Where was Duncan in the Final 24 minutes of the game last night? Where was Manu for the first 3 quarters of the game last night? Where was the bench the past 25 games?

Nobody on the Spurs has played good basketball this season for a full 48 minutes. Don't put that on Parker alone.


I would much rather a player show up in the 4th than just the first


Parker time and time again often falters in the 2nd half


Granted, Duncan has been inconsistent at times I'd still believe he is much more apt to take over games in crunch time (as is Manu) than TP

TP is great at the start, then teams figure out how to keep him out of the game as the game wears on (especially the good teams) and then Parker is rendered useless.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

exactly. Its freaking january, Duncan is gonna kill in the playoffs just like last year. Manu will also be the same playoff Manu it looks like. And parker seems like he's improving from last year.

its the fucking shitty rest of the team + Pop that really piss me off too.


Duncan played arguably the best series of his career last year against Dallas and we still lost


I also don't expect him to do a repeat performance against them this year (especially if AJ is calling fake double teams and Duncan refuses to read the defense that is being thrown at him)

I do expect Duncan to play great against Dallas, but as you said, it is the rest of the team that is the big question mark.

[gilmor]

I would much rather a player show up in the 4th than just the first


Parker time and time again often falters in the 2nd half


Granted, Duncan has been inconsistent at times I'd still believe he is much more apt to take over games in crunch time (as is Manu) than TP

TP is great at the start, then teams figure out how to keep him out of the game as the game wears on (especially the good teams) and then Parker is rendered useless.

If Parker never plays well in the first half, then who do you suppose to carry the load earlier?

Spurs game is based on Parker playing well in the first 3 quarters so that the score line is not too far apart for Manu and Tim to turn it on in the 4th quarter.

Manu is simply not that kind of a player to play consistently well in all 4 quarters. His game is based on 'turning it up' in the 4th quarter.

Having said that, I would say that Duncan's game should allow him to be effective for all 4 quarters. But he is playing well below his expectations.

[manu]

let's just put it this way:

Tony is more of a scorer than a true point guard

THEREFORE

#1 thing in his mind on the open court or transition play is to just run and make a layup

YESTERDAY THAT REALLY SCREWED US
because manu was wide open at one critical point of the last minute of the game, YET parker just ignored him and got his asss packed :spin

[jcrod]

It will never end. Ya'll people are freaking idiots. Btw how many times does Tony give a player wide open looks/shots/layups and they miss. TP has the worst finishers to work with, ever!

A new coworker from the eastcoast recently told me after watching a Spurs game. Wow that Tony guy is really good and he's only 24.

You do realize theres only one other player besides Nash who scores over 19pts, shoots over 50% from the field and averages 6+ assits per game. Guess who it is.

[ducks]

but he sucks donkeys though...
spurs fans think.....................

[ducks]

you put tp with the lakers
and tp's assist would go up or dallas

[exstatic]

you put tp with the lakers
and tp's assist would go up or dallas
You put him on ANY team that doesn't run motion, and his assists go up.

I've seen a team's fans hate on a player before, but I don't think I recall it being an All Star, certainly never an All Star on the Spurs...until now.

[ducks]

kobe and tp and brown would be scary

[MannyIsGod]

You put him on ANY team that doesn't run motion, and his assists go up.

I've seen a team's fans hate on a player before, but I don't think I recall it being an All Star, certainly never an All Star on the Spurs...until now.Do you really not remember what it was like when David Robinson was here? People bitched about him all the god damn time. Why doesn't he dunk? Blah Blah Blah.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The tony hate can be excessive, especially when you can argue he is the most consistent player overall at times, but I'd just like to see him show up more often in the 2nd half of games


He's still improving by the year

[drclic]

OK, TD just disapeared this all year, Manu is just not the same and didn't seem to get really better, Bowen can't stop Dirk, Kobe, so he's useless in playoff stage, Barry, Finley, Udrih just never match spurs basketball (in first you need to defend and they just can't) and all you guys say it's that parker sucks because he's not clutch ...

He's not suppose to, Manu and TD had this role for years now ... so just let him some time to become one now that Spurs need him to be (he needs to work on his long range shot to become one and that's it).

Don't doubt about all his game because he's not clutch, that's so ridiculous and short-minded ... Judge on a 2-3plays on one game : Spurs have to win the game way before this plays !!!!

Tony did great and I think he's the only spurs you can't blame this year.

[T Park]

More Parker hate.

Un, friggen, real.

[TheAffricanFan]

I´d really like to know how many players outside Barbosa can create his own shot on the Suns´s team without Nash ?
I think that it would be difficult to trade Parker with any other team 1on1 .
Parker is not a franchise player and I would do anything to move him and get Billups next year

[RogerIsEatingASandwich]

People need to quit bashing Parker, The Spurs are lucky to have a point guard as good as he is.

[diego]

i think the only valid criticism of tony's game is how pop uses him. the kid has great skills, great work ethic, and is a bargain. the question is whether the spurs use him effectively or not.

[ArgSpursFan]

i think the only valid criticism of tony's game is how pop uses him. the kid has great skills, great work ethic, and is a bargain. the question is whether the spurs use him effectively or not.

Thats exacly what I say.He is a great player,But To me he is more a SG who can run the court up and down without the ball,looking for some open looks to shoot or penetrate,he can also be a PG,no doubt,but he is more like AI´s style,and thats not real efective,in my opinion

[exstatic]

Do you really not remember what it was like when David Robinson was here? People bitched about him all the god damn time. Why doesn't he dunk? Blah Blah Blah.
I'm not talking complaints, I'm talking outright hatred of a player and his loved one(s). You never heard "That Valerie is such a cunt. David needs to spend less time with her and the kids".

You're probably mostly right, though. Some people just have a few quarts of "bitch" running thru their veins instead of blood. It's probably a lot of the same crowd.

[xapatan2]

I'm not going to read this damn thread, because it is the same damn thing over and over. Parker doesn't know when to pass, he slows down at the end of the game, and he doesn't play the point guard position the way it should be played.

I don't know how many times it has to be said on this board, but here it goes one more time


PARKER PLAYS THE PG POSITION THE WAY HE IS ASKED TO PLAY IT BY POP.

He's not going to be a pure point guard, EVER. So just forget about it! He's always going to be a score first/pass second point guard, and thats the way he's asked to play. He's not Steve Nash, He's not Jason Kidd, and He's not John Stockton so will you all please stop insinuating thats what he needs to be.

Secondly, its easy to focus more on his mistakes in the fourth quarter as last night. But the truth is that the Spurs didn't lose the game on Tony's late turnovers. They lost it with all of the crappy play throughout the game. Tony makes mistakes, and no one here will deny that, but the fact is that so many people here don't understand that many of those so called mistakes are just Tony doing what is asked of him.

Secondly, Tony gets shit for mistakes that aren't even his. The 2nd TO late last night was on Manu. He waited far too long to start his cut and by the time he was starting to go backdoor Tony was already passing him the ball to isolate up top. Thats not on Tony, thats actually on Manu but how many people here actually catch the nuances of late cuts and/or stopped cuts and how that fucks the passer?

Listening to people bitch about Tony Parker is like listening to people bitch about David Robinson. Neither are/were perfect, but they are so far above the average it isn't even funny.

and that's where i do stop to read this stupid thread...
when truth ( as for Kori post earlier) has been told..
Xap

[George Gervin's Afro]

I'm not going to read this damn thread, because it is the same damn thing over and over. Parker doesn't know when to pass, he slows down at the end of the game, and he doesn't play the point guard position the way it should be played.

I don't know how many times it has to be said on this board, but here it goes one more time


PARKER PLAYS THE PG POSITION THE WAY HE IS ASKED TO PLAY IT BY POP.

He's not going to be a pure point guard, EVER. So just forget about it! He's always going to be a score first/pass second point guard, and thats the way he's asked to play. He's not Steve Nash, He's not Jason Kidd, and He's not John Stockton so will you all please stop insinuating thats what he needs to be.

Secondly, its easy to focus more on his mistakes in the fourth quarter as last night. But the truth is that the Spurs didn't lose the game on Tony's late turnovers. They lost it with all of the crappy play throughout the game. Tony makes mistakes, and no one here will deny that, but the fact is that so many people here don't understand that many of those so called mistakes are just Tony doing what is asked of him.

Secondly, Tony gets shit for mistakes that aren't even his. The 2nd TO late last night was on Manu. He waited far too long to start his cut and by the time he was starting to go backdoor Tony was already passing him the ball to isolate up top. Thats not on Tony, thats actually on Manu but how many people here actually catch the nuances of late cuts and/or stopped cuts and how that fucks the passer?

Listening to people bitch about Tony Parker is like listening to people bitch about David Robinson. Neither are/were perfect, but they are so far above the average it isn't even funny.


This thread is not only about last night it's about TP's play over his first 5 yrs..

[ducks]

I wonder if the same fans would bash nash, kidd, chauncy the first five seasons of his nba career

[ArgSpursFan]

let's just put it this way:

Tony is more of a scorer than a true point guard

THEREFORE

#1 thing in his mind on the open court or transition play is to just run and make a layup

YESTERDAY THAT REALLY SCREWED US
because manu was wide open at one critical point of the last minute of the game, YET parker just ignored him and got his asss packed :spin

And that´s been going on for the last year and a half,I guess he didn´t like Manu being the first option for the perimetrals players.

[ducks]

And that´s been going on for the last year and a half,I guess he didn´t like Manu being the first option for the perimetrals players.
you do realize tp has passed to manu for assist right

[ArgSpursFan]

you do realize tp has passed to manu for assist right

Yeah,Way after re realized there was no shot for him.come on man,thats not a Pg minded player at all.he´s playing AI basketball right now,and that may be cool and shit,but doesn´t win championships

[Spurminator]

A good two-week ankle sprain for Parker might do this team's fans some good.

[ArgSpursFan]

you do realize tp has passed to manu for assist right

I guess you got speechless

think about it for a sec,a good point guard gets 20 ppg and 5 apg,but a great point guard gets 15 to 17 ppg.and 10 or + apg.Thats the deference that makes a good team a tittle contender.

[Trainwreck2100]

The spurs have not won a game Eva has attended

[cheguevara]

you put tp with the lakers
and tp's assist would go up or dallas

not only that, the lakers would actually be contenders.

There is no question Parker is an offensive force, the problem I think is he doesnt fit in with the current team we have now. The current team we have now requires the ball constantly moving around.

IMO Pop is a fucking idiot.

[telecomguy]

I´d really like to know how many players outside Barbosa can create his own shot on the Suns´s team without Nash ?
I think that it would be difficult to trade Parker with any other team 1on1 .
Parker is not a franchise player and I would do anything to move him and get Billups next year


I would trade Parker for Billups in a heartbeat. Billups is so much better than Parker that it is not even a comparison. Billups is super clutch, amazing 3 pt. range, mentally tough as nails, totally clutch, tough defender, can post-up most guards, can penetrate, great foul shooter, great passer, and a LEADER.

There is simply no comparison. If Detroit FO was on drugs and offered Spurs Billups for Parker, straight up, Spurs would take Billups in two seconds and may even throw in a 1st round draft next year to cement the deal. Unfortunately, Billups will not be traded by Detroit this year or any time in the near future.

[telecomguy]

You put him on ANY team that doesn't run motion, and his assists go up.

I've seen a team's fans hate on a player before, but I don't think I recall it being an All Star, certainly never an All Star on the Spurs...until now.

No it wouldn't.....because Kobe will have the ball mos of the times, not Parker.

[telecomguy]

People need to quit bashing Parker, The Spurs are lucky to have a point guard as good as he is.

He is good.....but not that good....and not good enough for Spurs to win it all unless Manu and Tim play out of their minds in the playoffs and take over.

[telecomguy]

I wonder if the same fans would bash nash, kidd, chauncy the first five seasons of his nba career

This notion that Parker is still young and learning is bullshit......look at Chris Paul, Deron Williams, etc....these guys are REAL POINT GUARDS. Do you not understand what PG's are supposed to do? They are supposed to direct the traffic, probe, facilitate, and make everyone better. Parker does not know how to do this. He is a SCORING guard who happens have the ball most of the time and dissappears in the 4th. That is what I am complaining about. Spurs need a real PG who can quaterback the offense and use Parker as a slasher/SG, and forget about relying on Parker to close out the games in the 4th qtr. He doesn't have the mental toughness or the court vision or the passing/probing skills to do this. Let him be the last resort (when plays break down) and he can penetrate when nothing opens up....until then, he should stand aside and let a real PG direct the offense. Just a thought.

[AFBlue]

This notion that Parker is still young and learning is bullshit......look at Chris Paul, Deron Williams, etc....these guys are REAL POINT GUARDS. Do you not understand what PG's are supposed to do? They are supposed to direct the traffic, probe, facilitate, and make everyone better. Parker does not know how to do this. He is a SCORING guard who happens have the ball most of the time and dissappears in the 4th. That is what I am complaining about. Spurs need a real PG who can quaterback the offense and use Parker as a slasher/SG, and forget about relying on Parker to close out the games in the 4th qtr. He doesn't have the mental toughness or the court vision or the passing/probing skills to do this. Let him be the last resort (when plays break down) and he can penetrate when nothing opens up....until then, he should stand aside and let a real PG direct the offense. Just a thought.

So you've done a great job pointing out the problem...what's the real world solution? If you think Tony should get the AI/Snow treatment...who is the "Snow"? And does having an offensively inept distributor in the starting five really increase the Spurs chances of winning a championship?

You mention Chris Paul, Deron Williams....both extremely talented lottery picks that the Spurs have no chance of getting, without sacraficing Parker. Are you saying you want to get rid of Parker? So again, what's your answer?

Either the Spurs get an "Eric Snow" or they trade Parker to get your "Jason Kidd"....can't have it both ways.

[telecomguy]

So you've done a great job pointing out the problem...what's the real world solution? If you think Tony should get the AI/Snow treatment...who is the "Snow"? And does having an offensively inept distributor in the starting five really increase the Spurs chances of winning a championship?

You mention Chris Paul, Deron Williams....both extremely talented lottery picks that the Spurs have no chance of getting, without sacraficing Parker. Are you saying you want to get rid of Parker? So again, what's your answer?

Either the Spurs get an "Eric Snow" or they trade Parker to get your "Jason Kidd"....can't have it both ways.


ARe you kidding me? Aside from salary problem, I would dump Parker for Kidd almost as fast as I would for Billups. There are lot of young PG's that I would trade for right now for Parker. I think we can get a very good young PG for Parker and maybe even a draft pick. Trading Parker right now could be a great move for today and future if Spurs FO has the guts to make such a big move, assuming they can get a good deal. Shit, I would even trade Parker for Hinrich if Chicago throws in a first rounder. Don't know about Eric Snow however.....

[telecomguy]

ARe you kidding me? Aside from salary problem, I would dump Parker for Kidd almost as fast as I would for Billups. There are lot of young PG's that I would trade for right now for Parker. I think we can get a very good young PG for Parker and maybe even a draft pick. Trading Parker right now could be a great move for today and future if Spurs FO has the guts to make such a big move, assuming they can get a good deal. Shit, I would even trade Parker for Hinrich if Chicago throws in a first rounder. Don't know about Eric Snow however.....


I remember recently when Parker got lot of assists (over 10 for sure) and had only 15 points.....that was a blow out win. Parker played like a PG in that game and got everyone involved. Unfortunately, this happens once in a blue moon. I am not sure why Parker cannot learn to be more of a PG because he has all the tools. Also, I can't remember if it was this year or last year when Parker missed a game and Spurs played great and won huge with something like 30 assists......everyone scored.....there was something like 5 players with 10+ pts....does anyone remember the game I am talking about? I think it was also on the road....

[Spurminator]

Don't know about Eric Snow however.....

Your uncertainty about Eric Snow speaks volumes.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Chris Paul for TP? I'd do it.. I'd also trade TP for Chauncy Billups or Mike Bibby..

[Kori Ellis]

Chris Paul for TP? I'd do it.. I'd also trade TP for Chauncy Billups or Mike Bibby..

:lmao @ Mike Bibby

You lost it.

[SoCal Lakeshow]

TP for Smush Parker. :clap :clap

[Kori Ellis]

2006-07
Tony - 19.3p, 5.3a, 54%FG (3pt - 48%)
Bibby - 17.9p, 5.6a, 38%FG (3pt - 29%)

Last playoffs vs Kings
Tony - 22/5/51%
Bibby - 17/5/42%

[George Gervin's Afro]

:lmao @ Mike Bibby

You lost it.


I'd like to see what others think about TP for Bibby.. at least Bibby can knock down jumpshots on a regular basis. he can also pay for teams backing off him or doubling off him..with TP you collapse the lane and the Spurs offense remains in nuetral..with Bibby he would space the floor better..

[nkdlunch]

BTW, those of you that are critical of Parker should step up to the plate with a list of point guards you would rather have on this team.

overall?
Nash
Billups
CP
Arenas
AI
Kidd
terry
Hinrich

available?
none, that's why ppl shouldn't bitch so much about Parker

[SoCal Lakeshow]

Tony Parker is one of the best PG's in the game. You guys would be fools to trade him. What you need is a solid true PG to back him up.

[George Gervin's Afro]

2006-07
Tony - 19.3p, 5.3a, 54%FG (3pt - 48%)
Bibby - 17.9p, 5.6a, 38%FG (3pt - 29%)

Last playoffs vs Kings
Tony - 22/5/51%
Bibby - 17/5/42%


yes but Bibby's stats are without Tim Duncan on his side. I think we can both assume that TP's numbers would suffer a bit without Tim Duncan..hell have you seen parker's offense when Duncan is not on the floor?

[Kori Ellis]

yes but Bibby's stats are without Tim Duncan on his side. I think we can both assume that TP's numbers would suffer a bit without Tim Duncan..hell have you seen parker's offense when Duncan is not on the floor?

Okay, you think Bibby's FG% would go up 16% in San Antonio to equal Tony's? You are nuts.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Okay, you think Bibby's FG% would go up 16% in San Antonio to equal Tony's? You are nuts.


Well he would have more open jump shots and yes I think his field goal% would improve. Bibby is a far superior shooter than TP is..

will you acknowledge the obvious and admit TP's game benefits with TD and would suffer without it? Again I'm nuts because I don't towe the party line..

[nkdlunch]

FG is not everything. Probably Bibby would involve the teamates more,more of an option in crunch time,etc, but I still wouldn't trade for Bibby.

[Kori Ellis]

Well he would have more open jump shots and yes I think his field goal% would improve. Bibby is a far superior shooter than TP is..

will you acknowledge the obvious and admit TP's game benefits with TD and would suffer without it? Again I'm nuts because I don't towe the party line..

I would guess you have watched Bibby in quite some time. His shooting sucks these days. I'd guess if you check their jumpshot percentages, Tony's is higher.

[George Gervin's Afro]

FG is not everything. Probably Bibby would involve the teamates more,more of an option in crunch time,etc, but I still wouldn't trade for Bibby.


he would involve his teamates more and be a better crunch time option.. yet you'd keep the guy that does not bring those?

[RogerIsEatingASandwich]

TP for Starbury :spin :lol :smchode:

[George Gervin's Afro]

I would guess you have watched Bibby in quite some time. His shooting sucks these days. I'd guess if you check their jumpshot percentages, Tony's is higher.



I admit have not watched Bibby in a while it just seems like when that guy is on he's lights out. I have the impression of Bibby that he does not have to rely soley on athletic ability to score..

[George Gervin's Afro]

TP for Starbury :spin :lol :smchode:


NEVER

[nkdlunch]

he would involve his teamates more and be a better crunch time option.. yet you'd keep the guy that does not bring those?

we would gain some things, but we would also lose some things with Parker. Come on, you can't see what Parker brings to the table?

great penetrating threat, speeds up the game, knows the Spurs gameplan, proven winner, etc,etc.

Bibby is going downhill, he is inconsistent, etc.

[SoCal Lakeshow]

I admit have not watched Bibby in a while it just seems like when that guy is on he's lights out. I have the impression of Bibby that he does not have to rely soley on athletic ability to score..
Bibby is still a very good player and very clutch. But you guys would be fools to trade a young Tony Parker for an older, always has nagging injuries, Mike Bibby.

[George Gervin's Afro]

we would gain some things, but we would also lose some things with Parker. Come on, you can't see what Parker brings to the table?

great penetrating threat, speeds up the game, knows the Spurs gameplan, proven winner, etc,etc.


TP doesn't suck. He's a good player but I don't think his style of play fits the Spurs. Now since Pop seems to disagree with me then maybe I'm wrong but I just feel sometimes that we need a player that plays smarter and does not force the issue when it is not needed..

[RogerIsEatingASandwich]

Bibby is still a very good player and very clutch. But you guys would be fools to trade a young Tony Parker for an older, always has nagging injuries, Mike Bibby.

Also, Bibby's defense is poo poo

[nkdlunch]

TP doesn't suck. He's a good player but I don't think his style of play fits the Spurs. Now since Pop seems to disagree with me then maybe I'm wrong but I just feel sometimes that we need a player that plays smarter and does not force the issue when it is not needed..

I agree with that. TPs style of play does not match good w/Spurs as they are right now, OLD AND SLOW.

It's not TPs fault.

When Spurs want to go on a run, you don't wanna have TP playing the way he does. Because the other players are gonna be in his way. But that's all on Pop. IMO Pop is also making mistakes by having TP play that way, in 4th gear while the rest of the spurs are playing in 2nd gear.

[AFBlue]

ARe you kidding me? Aside from salary problem, I would dump Parker for Kidd almost as fast as I would for Billups. There are lot of young PG's that I would trade for right now for Parker. I think we can get a very good young PG for Parker and maybe even a draft pick. Trading Parker right now could be a great move for today and future if Spurs FO has the guts to make such a big move, assuming they can get a good deal. Shit, I would even trade Parker for Hinrich if Chicago throws in a first rounder. Don't know about Eric Snow however.....

Parker for Hinrich??? You lost it. :lol

Unless it's the first rounder they're gonna swap with the Knicks...which won't happen.

BTW, I said real-world...meaning realistic.

The only "realistic" trade is Kidd...which boggles my mind, because the last thing I'd want the Spurs to do is get OLDER.

[cheguevara]

OMG Hinrich would be so awesome in the SPurs. THat is a true PG + he can play D. Ok stop dreaming now.

[AFBlue]

OMG Hinrich would be so awesome in the SPurs. THat is a true PG + he can play D. Ok stop dreaming now.

Hinrich is not a defensive pg and he's averaging 15pts and 6asts in 35 mpg...how is that an upgrade?!?

[JPB]

I agree with that. TPs style of play does not match good w/Spurs as they are right now, OLD AND SLOW.

It's not TPs fault.

When Spurs want to go on a run, you don't wanna have TP playing the way he does. Because the other players are gonna be in his way. But that's all on Pop. IMO Pop is also making mistakes by having TP play that way, in 4th gear while the rest of the spurs are playing in 2nd gear.

Yes, but you don't have to trade TP so the OLD and SLOW can play in 2nd gear but trade the OLD and SLOW so TP and the spurs can play in 4th gear. :smokin

[ArgSpursFan]

I agree with that. TPs style of play does not match good w/Spurs as they are right now, OLD AND SLOW.

It's not TPs fault.

When Spurs want to go on a run, you don't wanna have TP playing the way he does. Because the other players are gonna be in his way. But that's all on Pop. IMO Pop is also making mistakes by having TP play that way, in 4th gear while the rest of the spurs are playing in 2nd gear.

I´d say TP style has changed in the last 2 years,reather tham the spurs don´t fit Parker´s style.I looks like since he hangs out with eva he wants all the flashes, and wanna be on ESPN top 10 plays all the time,tham winning another championship.

[ArgSpursFan]

2006-07
Tony - 19.3p, 5.3a, 54%FG (3pt - 48%)
Bibby - 17.9p, 5.6a, 38%FG (3pt - 29%)

Last playoffs vs Kings
Tony - 22/5/51%
Bibby - 17/5/42%

I see your point Kori,but we are saying he is not a clutch player,thats all,it´s not about numbers,cause he has the numbers.In my opinion he wants his numbers better tham another championship

[ArgSpursFan]

The spurs have not won a game Eva has attended

Ofcourse, TP just wanna show off,and forgets about the rest of the team

[Kori Ellis]

I´d say TP style has changed in the last 2 years,reather tham the spurs don´t fit Parker´s style.I looks like since he hangs out with eva he wants all the flashes, and wanna be on ESPN top 10 plays all the time,tham winning another championship.

Ridiculous.

[Kori Ellis]

Ofcourse, TP just wanna show off,and forgets about the rest of the team

It's not true. They've won a lot of games with Eva in the stands.

[ArgSpursFan]

Ridiculous.

I tell you He´ll go to LA when his contract is up.

He´d play for free if he has to

[Kori Ellis]

I tell you He´ll go to LA when his contract is up.

He´d play for free if he has to

:lmao

[Spurminator]

lol

Mike Bibby.

Thread over.

[nkdlunch]

I´d say TP style has changed in the last 2 years,reather tham the spurs don´t fit Parker´s style.I looks like since he hangs out with eva he wants all the flashes, and wanna be on ESPN top 10 plays all the time,tham winning another championship.

another poster giving argentines a bad name :rolleyes

[ArgSpursFan]

another poster giving argentines a bad name :rolleyes

You know what?,I like parker to be honest,I just don´t like the Fancy Parker who wants to be the team´s top scorer, and clutch player, reather tham being in the league´s apg top 5, and winnin another tittle
Besides that he is a good player

[George Gervin's Afro]

lol

Mike Bibby.

Thread over.


Bibby or Parker taking the last shot?

[Spurminator]

Neither.

Bibby or Parker for the first 47 minutes of a game? Parker by a mile.

[Manu_The _Best]

I got kicked out of the Spursreport forum because early last season, I criticized Parker too much in the administrator's opinion. Basically what I said was that Parker has a very poor court vision & is too one-dimensional (penetrate & layup) to be considered anywhere near the top point-guard in the league. I also stated that I feared Spurs would not go far in the playoffs with Parker directing the offence (I duly noted that Popovich had given Parker much more responsibility for offence as well as green light to shoot more) and his lack of defence. Sure enough, Dallas knocked Spurs off despite heroic effort from Duncan and as USUAL, Parker dissappeared in the key moments in that series.

Watching last night's game reminded me why I get so frustrated watching Parker. The kid has all the natural talent but his basketball IQ or court vision must be very very low. And his inability to play tough in pressure situation is so consistent that I am inclined to believe that he cannot handle pressure in the latter stages of games. If you watch Parker, he always comes out very strong in games or in series only to basically dissappear in the crunch minutes or key games once the opposing defence starts to collapse their defence and prevent him from penetrating. Unlike Nash who can punish you if you back off him, Parker's jump shot is still so unreliable that as soon as the crunch time comes, you can see parker is so reluctant to take the important shots -- always deferring to Manu or Duncan. So effectively, our offence becomes very one-dimensional in key moments because Parker and Bowen dissappears and the only options are Manu and Duncan.

I know many posters love Parker because he is so quick and he can penetrate/finish. Unfortunately, this is not enough for a PG. And also his defence is a quite a big liability. Lastly how come makes so many turnovers in key moments but his steal numbers are so low??? I do not have scientific proof or data to support this but I watch almost all Spurs games and the general impression I have of parker is that he committs way too many mental errors and basically tends to "dissappear" in key moments when the games are close and are hanging in the balance.

I said last year that I can easily name 10 PG that are probably more clutch, and better than Parker.....(i included Hinrich in that list) and everyone at Spursreport laughed at me.

I am not trying to bash parker but it is so surprising how ineffective he becomes in clutch time and how many errors he makes and how little he contributes to the team. Parker playing one-on-five is simply not going to work in playoffs or in crunch time. Especially against an atheletic team like Dallas or even Phoenix. To me, Hinrich, Paul, Nash, Billups, Kidd, Andre Miller, etc etc. or any one of 10 other PG would be a far better fit than Parker. Parker will score...in the early going and then dissappear when the crunch time comes. PG is one of the most important position, and I can't imagine Spurs winning it all this year relying only on Duncan and Manu in key points in the games.

Don't worry, you are NOT alone. The same thing happened to me because I criticized Pop...FORGET ABOUT THE SPURS REPORT FORUM – it is BOGUS FORUM run by a mentally unstable Spurs Fans - you don't have the right to state your opinion there which is a JOKE. I respect this FORUM because you get a chance to tell your story and your opinion - CONGRATS to the Administrators here!!! We are ALL Spurs Fans and have the right to an outburst from time to time, especially the regular season ticket holders and the NBA League Pass holders - we are paying the salaries of those players, so we CANNOT say anything when they play bad??? COME ON! I agree with your opinion about Tony - read my other posts where I stated that Tony was simply transformed to a scorer, NOTHING MORE, which is a mistake of Pop - Tony needs to be the running guy with 8-9+ asts per game and not taking that many shots - we also need a backup PG as well for the lack of performance of Beno...Pop needs to find some SF(s) to be scorers and rebounders S. Marion type, Bonzi Wells, etc. WHY the Spurs didn't go after Bonzi Wells I have no idea??? :nope :nope :nope :nope

[pppp]

Bibby or Parker taking the last shot?

:lol :lol ask any Kings fan....the way Bibby has been playing lately, nobody would count on him to win a game.

And they would trade Bibby for Tony anyday...

The TP hate is :dizzy

Spurs have biggest issues right now !

[ArgSpursFan]

Neither.

Bibby or Parker for the first 47 minutes of a game? Parker by a mile.

True,but in playoffs the 80-90% of the games you win them or loose them in the final minute.

[Spurminator]

Not true. Especially if you have a player who shoots with the frequency and accuracy of Mike Bibby handling the ball most of the game.

[AFBlue]

Not true. Especially if you have a player who shoots with the frequency and accuracy of Mike Bibby handling the ball most of the game.
:lol ....nice

[ArgSpursFan]

Not true. Especially if you have a player who shoots with the frequency and accuracy of Mike Bibby handling the ball most of the game.


Parker hundles the ball most of the games too,he plays great for 45 to 47 mins.,but he socks down the strech.I take bibby over parker for a winning field goal

[Spurminator]

You're missing the point. You can't just sub Bibby for Parker in the 47th minute.

[1Parker1]

Another good point about Parker over those other PG's listed: He's really good at staying healthy and hasn't missed many games in the past 4 seasons. (**knocks wood).

[SoCal Lakeshow]

Yes, but you don't have to trade TP so the OLD and SLOW can play in 2nd gear but trade the OLD and SLOW so TP and the spurs can play in 4th gear. :smokin
Trade Duncan for KG :santahat

[Amuseddaysleeper]

in regards to parker being too flashy for the sake of eva etc..


if anything, his play has improved since he met eva


maybe if he went with scarllett johannson he'd be kicking ass in 4th quarters as well

[exstatic]

Parker hundles the ball most of the games too,he plays great for 45 to 47 mins.,but he socks down the strech.I take bibby over parker for a winning field goal
You don't watch the Spurs at all, do you? Parker brings the ball up the court, and if it isn't a break opportunity, 90% of the time he drops it to a big at the top of the 3 point arc, and the motion offense begins. In the half court offense, Tony may handle the ball 30% of the time. It's a miracle he gets 6 assists, and yet, you people complain.

[MannyIsGod]

Mike Bibby?

:lmao !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

[MannyIsGod]

If I was trading Parker straight up for another PG in this leauge, I can think of one I'd do, but thats it. I'd probably trade Parker for Paul, but there are no other straight up trades I'd do. Not for Nash, not for Kidd, not for Billups (although that one is close, very close).

[Kobulingam]

If I was trading Parker straight up for another PG in this leauge, I can think of one I'd do, but thats it. I'd probably trade Parker for Paul, but there are no other straight up trades I'd do. Not for Nash, not for Kidd, not for Billups (although that one is close, very close).


I'd trade Parker for Billups!!!! We'd probably win 2 of the next 3 championships, which is good enough. After that TD/Manu will be running on fumes and totally breaking down, so what does it matter if you have a Chris Paul entering his prime?

[drclic]

Trade Parker ... Billups maybe but common this guy is fading ... Nash, Kidd may have 1-2 great season and will become veteran. and if there're so great why they don't win a championship ?
Arenas is not a PG, like Dwayne Wade ....

Jason Terry : this must be a joke .. come on, he's so individualist that I can't see Manu and TD want to play with this guy ...

Kirk Hinrich .... pssssss so overrated ... good shooter, no sparkle ... a complement, no creativity, no 1on1 ... so no passing in playoff where you have to make difference.
I would even prefr Ridnour for this kind of unathletic/good shooter player.

Chris Paul, why not but it's a bargain because you don't know anything about him in playoff .. i saw him in USa basketball and just disappear in big games. He's also a poor shooter. So maybe maybe not better than Parker.


Parker still underarated by fans, not by opposent coaches (all star selection and priority of their defense much of the time).

U can't have 3 clutch player ine a team ... you need to have 1-2 (TD and Manu), TP was never suppose to be ... With this 2 just don't fill their role anymore, he has to step up but let him time and work ...

Drclic.

[ginobili fan]

Spurs fans are so genious,some of them should be GM...But they aren't...Thanks God

[ArgSpursFan]

in regards to parker being too flashy for the sake of eva etc..


if anything, his play has improved since he met eva


maybe if he went with scarllett johannson he'd be kicking ass in 4th quarters as well

Yes,His game did,thats all he cares about I guess.couse since his game has gotten better the team´s gotten worse

Like a Said, Iverson´s type of Basketball is flashy but dont win no championships

new Parker=Iverson´s clone=no good for the team

[ArgSpursFan]

Where was Manu for the first 3 quarters of the game last night? .

I would rather Have a player who shows up in the 4th than just the first 3 quarters of the game

[TDMVPDPOY]

if you think parker is clutch something is clearly wrong with you, dude is a scrub

[ArgSpursFan]

:lol :lol ask any Kings fan....the way Bibby has been playing lately, nobody would count on him to win a game.

And they would trade Bibby for Tony anyday...

The TP hate is :dizzy

Spurs have biggest issues right now !

he wants to get traded,thats why

[1Parker1]

I would rather Have a player who shows up in the 4th than just the first 3 quarters of the game

That's where we differ, I guess. I'd like a play who shows up all 4th quarters. :rolleyes

[ducks]

1Parker1
do you not know that the last 5 minutes of the game count more then the first 43 minutes

I do not get that. if parker does not keep them close
manu or duncan can not get enough points for the w

pop is trying to go to tp more in 4
WHY BECAUSE he wants to win in the playoffs
they have another option
it will take tp alittle bit but he will be make more baskets in the fourth and less t.o
hell he hit the game winner before in phoenix before

[GrandeDavid]

I got kicked out of the Spursreport forum because early last season, I criticized Parker too much in the administrator's opinion. Basically what I said was that Parker has a very poor court vision & is too one-dimensional (penetrate & layup) to be considered anywhere near the top point-guard in the league. I also stated that I feared Spurs would not go far in the playoffs with Parker directing the offence (I duly noted that Popovich had given Parker much more responsibility for offence as well as green light to shoot more) and his lack of defence. Sure enough, Dallas knocked Spurs off despite heroic effort from Duncan and as USUAL, Parker dissappeared in the key moments in that series.

Watching last night's game reminded me why I get so frustrated watching Parker. The kid has all the natural talent but his basketball IQ or court vision must be very very low. And his inability to play tough in pressure situation is so consistent that I am inclined to believe that he cannot handle pressure in the latter stages of games. If you watch Parker, he always comes out very strong in games or in series only to basically dissappear in the crunch minutes or key games once the opposing defence starts to collapse their defence and prevent him from penetrating. Unlike Nash who can punish you if you back off him, Parker's jump shot is still so unreliable that as soon as the crunch time comes, you can see parker is so reluctant to take the important shots -- always deferring to Manu or Duncan. So effectively, our offence becomes very one-dimensional in key moments because Parker and Bowen dissappears and the only options are Manu and Duncan.

I know many posters love Parker because he is so quick and he can penetrate/finish. Unfortunately, this is not enough for a PG. And also his defence is a quite a big liability. Lastly how come makes so many turnovers in key moments but his steal numbers are so low??? I do not have scientific proof or data to support this but I watch almost all Spurs games and the general impression I have of parker is that he committs way too many mental errors and basically tends to "dissappear" in key moments when the games are close and are hanging in the balance.

I said last year that I can easily name 10 PG that are probably more clutch, and better than Parker.....(i included Hinrich in that list) and everyone at Spursreport laughed at me.

I am not trying to bash parker but it is so surprising how ineffective he becomes in clutch time and how many errors he makes and how little he contributes to the team. Parker playing one-on-five is simply not going to work in playoffs or in crunch time. Especially against an atheletic team like Dallas or even Phoenix. To me, Hinrich, Paul, Nash, Billups, Kidd, Andre Miller, etc etc. or any one of 10 other PG would be a far better fit than Parker. Parker will score...in the early going and then dissappear when the crunch time comes. PG is one of the most important position, and I can't imagine Spurs winning it all this year relying only on Duncan and Manu in key points in the games.

That was a damn good, well thought out take. You are pretty convincing, too. I must admit that I am counting the years and still waiting for him to take his game to another level. All things considered, and considering who he is and where he was drafted, he's become a pretty damn good player. I just think that fans probably need to temper expectations of him. I think Parker is a good player, that's about it. He's fun to watch at times, other times he can be frustrating as hell. But mostly he's pretty good.

[picnroll]

Spurs have three players tht can score, period, Parker, Manu, and Duncan. It's a miracle when some other Spur scrub puts up 10 in a game. How many times have you seen Finley and Horry handed wide open shots for bricks or Obert flubbing layups. Now some nimrods complain one of the three only scorers scores too much. Sure, cut back on Parker trying to score. Improves the Spurs shot at Oden considerably.

[smeagol]

New posters bashing Tony because they are Manu fans simply because they would like to see more Manu and less Tony is getting old.

Very old.

[ArgSpursFan]

New posters bashing Tony because they are Manu fans simply because they would like to see more Manu and less Tony is getting old.

Very old.

I would like to see some more WINNING!!!!
hello, anybody out there??????

This is not about Manu vs. Tony

This is just about winning

[JPB]

I would rather Have a player who shows up in the 4th than just the first 3 quarters of the game

So, if Tony, Tim, and Manu were just showing up in the fourth, how many more wins would the spurs have ?

[ArgSpursFan]

So, if Tony, Tim, and Manu were just showing up in the fourth, how many more wins would the spurs have ?


The thing is Manu always shows on the 4rd.quearter,and Timmy as well,if tony could just concentrate on passing and findin the open man(as he should)we could´ve have a better record.At least on the 2nd.spot in the conference.

[AFBlue]

Parker in 34 minutes against the 76ers had 8 points and 8 assists. He was aggressive at times in the fourth, but still managed to make the right passes. Throughout the game he continuously looked for the third or fourth option and found them. When this kid is not asked to bear the load offensively (a.k.a when the "shooters" feel it), he IS capable of being a pass-first point guard.

The 76ers mounted a comeback in the fourth and Tony's play on offense was a big reason for the Spurs surging at the right time.

[Manu_The _Best]

Parker in 34 minutes against the 76ers had 8 points and 8 assists. He was aggressive at times in the fourth, but still managed to make the right passes. Throughout the game he continuously looked for the third or fourth option and found them. When this kid is not asked to bear the load offensively (a.k.a when the "shooters" feel it), he IS capable of being a pass-first point guard.

The 76ers mounted a comeback in the fourth and Tony's play on offense was a big reason for the Spurs surging at the right time.

GREAT GAME BY TONY TODAY!!! This is WHAT I want to see from him -scoring less and proviDIng the opportunity to his teammates...Unfortunately, the 76rs are one of the woRse teams in the league, which DOESN'T PLaY any defense, so this WIN shouldn't satisfy us very much!!! IT WAS a must! Let see how we are going to do vs. the TOP teams after the allstar break - this is WHAT matters THE MOST!!! I can care LESS about the WEAK 76rs...They are a joke anyway...

GO SPURS!!! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[ChumpDumper]

Let see how we are going to do vs. the TOP teams after the allstar break - this is WHAT matters THE MOST!!! If we played against a top team like this, we would've lost by 50.

[exstatic]

If we played against a top team like this, we would've lost by 50.
Yeah, Manu 12 shots for 12 points and Tim 19 shots for 17 is nothing to write home about.

[Solid D]

You don't watch the Spurs at all, do you? Parker brings the ball up the court, and if it isn't a break opportunity, 90% of the time he drops it to a big at the top of the 3 point arc, and the motion offense begins. In the half court offense, Tony may handle the ball 30% of the time. It's a miracle he gets 6 assists, and yet, you people complain.

exstatic is 100% right on. I'll just add that another frequent occurance comes when Tony feeds Timmy in the post. Timmy seldom shoots without taking a dribble in the post, thus taking away any chance for an assist for Tony. This is a staple set for the Spurs, especially in the 4th quarter, where Timmy becomes the hub and he is more likely to get an assist (passing out of the post) than Tony is.

Yes, Tony can still improve his assist totals, but the Spurs offense will seldom generate high assist numbers for their PGs.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

If I was trading Parker straight up for another PG in this leauge, I can think of one I'd do, but thats it. I'd probably trade Parker for Paul, but there are no other straight up trades I'd do. Not for Nash, not for Kidd, not for Billups (although that one is close, very close).

So I'm reading the through this thread, and I've read lot of dumb shit, but this takes the cake. This is elephant shit in a yard full of dog shit.

Is that Eva Longoria behind that computer?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

So I'm reading the through this thread, and I've read lot of dumb shit, but this takes the cake. This is elephant shit in a yard full of dog shit.

Is that Eva Longoria behind that computer?

Which part of that, specifically?

I would do TP for Chris Paul too. I wouldn't do TP for Kidd either. TP for Steve Nash, or TP for Chauncy I probably wouldn't...but would definately have to think hard about.


Sorry, I don't see the elephant crap in that post.

[timvp]

Here are the stats for last year in the playoffs and how the Big Three faired in clutch play -- clutch play defined as the 4th quarter or overtime with less than 5 minutes left and neither team ahead by more than 5 points.

Ginobili - .364 FG%, 4 turnovers
Duncan - .370 FG%, 4 turnovers
Parker - .450 FG%, 3 turnovers

But then again, that would go against Spurs fan legend :rolleyes

Bottomline is that Parker isn't James Silas but nobody on this team really is -- especially looking at the playoffs last year. It's amazing that Parker gets the choking tag when Manu had the foul on Dirk, the Artest steal leading to the Martin layup and the tip away against the Mavs that ended a game.

[timvp]

Same stats for the 2004-05 playoffs:

Ginobili - .417 FG%, 3 turnovers
Duncan - .400 FG%, 2 turnovers
Parker - .474 FG%, 2 turnovers

Not bad for a non-clutch player.



P.S.

Horry was off the charts in that playoff run:

Horry - .727 FG%, 1 turnover

To give you an idea of how clutch Horry was in the 2005 playoff run:

With Horry on the court during clutch play, the Spurs scored 124.1 points per 100 possessions and gave up 83.7 points per 100 possessions.

That's disgusting :lol

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Bottomline is that Parker isn't James Silas but nobody on this team really is -- especially looking at the playoffs last year. It's amazing that Parker gets the choking tag when Manu had the foul on Dirk, the Artest steal leading to the Martin layup and the tip away against the Mavs that ended a game.

I can't speak for every Spur fan, but my guess is Ginobilli gets more lee way because he's come through for us in the clutch more as well. He has a few get out of jail free cards he can use.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

If I was trading Parker straight up for another PG in this leauge, I can think of one I'd do, but thats it. I'd probably trade Parker for Paul, but there are no other straight up trades I'd do. Not for Nash, not for Kidd, not for Billups (although that one is close, very close).

I don't know if you consider "Flash" a point anymore, but considering that he played only a little over a year ago, he would seem to fit the position...and also, Nash is a 2 time MVP Christs sake. the Spurs are an old team. If the Spurs are going to win chamionships it's giong to be within the next 2-3 years. Parker being younger than Nash shouldn't matter for two reasons: Nash is unbelievable for his age, and I don't think there will be a huge drop off in his game any time soon, AND Once Duncan game starts dropping off, and I mean DRASTICALLY, Parkers position on the team will not mean a thing, at least if the Spurs are really trying to win a championship because Duncan is the centerpiece of this team, and frankly, once he is a shadow of his former self Tony will be playing for a "good" team that, though is in the run for a champioship, is highly unfavored. And ironically, this is where this team stands right now. And although it isn't on his account, I would much rather win (with nash playing point) 2,3 championships within the next 3,4,5 years and have to rebuild than win none with parker at the point, and be content with just being a really good team that was knocked out of the 2nd or third round. Because when it is all said and done, looking back 10, 20, 150 (exaggeration) years from now, it's really about how many championships you've got, and not how many years that the team was merely a contender.

[Ronaldo McDonald]

Which part of that, specifically?

I would do TP for Chris Paul too. I wouldn't do TP for Kidd either. TP for Steve Nash, or TP for Chauncy I probably wouldn't...but would definately have to think hard about.


Sorry, I don't see the elephant crap in that post.

TP for Paul, I would do. As well as TP for Nash without even thinking (which I hardly ever do in the first place).

[Please_dont_ban_me]

TP for Paul, I would do. As well as TP for Nash without even thinking (which I hardly ever do in the first place).

How many good teams has Nash played for? How many rings does he have?

Not to mention Nash's age. With TP you have a stud for the next 10-15 years.

[T Park]

Notice the Parker haters will over look the above stats.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Notice the Parker haters will over look the above stats.

I'm not really a Parker hater, but a quick observation...

Stats aside, the beef I have with Parker is at the end of games when the lanes shrink and he has to pull up...more often then not it seems like you can't rely on him to hit a jump shot. Hell, it seems like even he doesn't think he'll hit the jump shot.

[T Park]

the beef I have with Parker is at the end of games when the lanes shrink and he has to pull up...more often then not it seems like you can't rely on him to hit a jump shot

Stats not aside.

The stats speak volumes.

Period.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Stats not aside.

The stats speak volumes.

Period.

Stats can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say.

I'm not saying that's what Timvp did, but I am saying I think most people who are displeased with TP have a similar take to my previous post. Which is why I made it. Stats aside.

[bringBAKElie]

to everyone who would trade parker, you would be hard pressed to find someone as durable, with the type of game he plays, that would last a season outside of billups, and with their disparity in age, would be a horrible trade (parker is good everyone from argentina get over it)

[pppp]

Stats can be manipulated to say whatever you want them to say.

I'm not saying that's what Timvp did, but I am saying I think most people who are displeased with TP have a similar take to my previous post. Which is why I made it. Stats aside.

:lmao You're right !! Actual facts and stats don't matter !! What's important is what you want to be true, no matter what reality is....

when people can't face reality, or don't wanna see it, notice how they always try to dismiss it first ("stats can be manipulated, etc.")...

And that's exactly why the Parker hate will never stop, no matter what the guy does : because the reality of his play and performances just doesn't really matter anymore... :drunk

[George Gervin's Afro]

:lmao You're right !! Actual facts and stats don't matter !! What's important is what you want to be true, no matter what reality is....

when people can't face reality, or don't wanna see it, notice how they always try to dismiss it first ("stats can be manipulated, etc.")...

And that's exactly why the Parker hate will never stop, no matter what the guy does : because the reality of his play and performances just doesn't really matter anymore... :drunk


Well since Carlos Boozer's stats are better than Tim's then those stats tell you that he is a better player. :rolleyes

Those stats don't lie :lol :lol :lol

[ArgSpursFan]

Here are the stats for last year in the playoffs and how the Big Three faired in clutch play -- clutch play defined as the 4th quarter or overtime with less than 5 minutes left and neither team ahead by more than 5 points.

Ginobili - .364 FG%, 4 turnovers
Duncan - .370 FG%, 4 turnovers
Parker - .450 FG%, 3 turnovers

But then again, that would go against Spurs fan legend :rolleyes

Bottomline is that Parker isn't James Silas but nobody on this team really is -- especially looking at the playoffs last year. It's amazing that Parker gets the choking tag when Manu had the foul on Dirk, the Artest steal leading to the Martin layup and the tip away against the Mavs that ended a game.

True but the thread wasn´t posted last year or the year before,when he was less selfish,I think we are talking about this year,and don´t tell me you haven´t noticed that he´s became more selfish and flashie this year man.

[Nikos]

Same stats for the 2004-05 playoffs:

Ginobili - .417 FG%, 3 turnovers
Duncan - .400 FG%, 2 turnovers
Parker - .474 FG%, 2 turnovers

Not bad for a non-clutch player.



P.S.

Horry was off the charts in that playoff run:

Horry - .727 FG%, 1 turnover

To give you an idea of how clutch Horry was in the 2005 playoff run:

With Horry on the court during clutch play, the Spurs scored 124.1 points per 100 possessions and gave up 83.7 points per 100 possessions.

That's disgusting :lol

To get a clearer picture, don't forget to add Points scored per 48 min (amounts to about 10 games worth of crunch time).

Percentage isn't as meaningful because it doesn't take into account FTs, 3pters, and how often the player shoots etc....

[diego]

Same stats for the 2004-05 playoffs:

Ginobili - .417 FG%, 3 turnovers
Duncan - .400 FG%, 2 turnovers
Parker - .474 FG%, 2 turnovers

Not bad for a non-clutch player.



P.S.

Horry was off the charts in that playoff run:

Horry - .727 FG%, 1 turnover

To give you an idea of how clutch Horry was in the 2005 playoff run:

With Horry on the court during clutch play, the Spurs scored 124.1 points per 100 possessions and gave up 83.7 points per 100 possessions.

That's disgusting :lol

Ive already defended parker in this thread, and am not looking to fight. but it seems to me this is a case of how much protagonism you have. For ex, kobe often has a lower percentage and more turnovers than say manu, but it is also becaues he shoots and handles the ball more. overall kobe is still better its just that he does more so he screws up more. In the 04-05 playoffs parker didnt have the ball much in the 4th, hence its not that surprising if he had a higher FG% or less turnovers- clutch is not that easy to define. (easiest way to see if thats the case is for you to post the rest of the stats: mpg, ppg, 3pFG%, stls, blks, ast, and also clarify if it is the whole 4th quarter or only the last 4 min etc)

[ginobili fan]

I just think these fans are not parker haters but parker lovers.
Then they want to see him being the best point guard of the humanity history.
I just hope they won't see that when Tony will kick spurs ass in the future...

[ArgSpursFan]

I just think these fans are not parker haters but parker lovers.
Then they want to see him being the best point guard of the humanity history.
I just hope they won't see that when Tony will kick spurs ass in the future...

Damn Right my friend,and Spurs lovers mainly.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Damn Right my friend,and Spurs lovers mainly.


No no no the definiton of parker hate is :
not acknowledging that he is flawless or having the audacity to point out his shortcomings..

[drclic]

"Parker hate will never stop, no matter what the guy does " exactly pppp .. nothing more to say ... It's king of a religious thing ... they have faith, and that's sot illogical that you can't argue with them ... Not interesting and very exhausting ...

Tp won 2 championships with spurs, TP progress mentally (and statisticly) every year, TP is very coachable, TP is a good ambassador for San Antonio, Tp wants to win.

Drclic.

[ArgSpursFan]

"Parker hate will never stop, no matter what the guy does " exactly pppp .. nothing more to say ... It's king of a religious thing ... they have faith, and that's sot illogical that you can't argue with them ... Not interesting and very exhausting ...

Tp won 2 championships with spurs, TP progress mentally (and statisticly) every year, TP is very coachable, TP is a good ambassador for San Antonio, Tp wants to win.

Drclic.

....And show off....

[Texas_Ranger]

The guy can't pass.

[George Gervin's Afro]

The guy can't pass.


You must not know basketball because point guards don't need to be good passers...oh wait.. :nerd they do.. What are you so hateful??

[ArgSpursFan]

You must not know basketball because point guards don't need to be good passers...oh wait.. :nerd they do.. What are you so hateful??

say I great point guard that couldn´t pass .And don´t bring mediocres.
and talking about good ones...

Magic??
Stockton??
Nash??
West??
Isiah??

Couldn´t they pass??

[ducks]

they could pass but the other player had to maek the basket to get assist

[George Gervin's Afro]

say I great point guard that couldn´t pass .And don´t bring mediocres.
and talking about good ones...

Magic??
Stockton??
Nash??
West??
Isiah??

Couldn´t they pass??


In defense of Parker it's not fair to compare him to those guys.

[ArgSpursFan]

In defense of Parker it's not fair to compare him to those guys.

But,if you love Parker and the Spurs so much,don´t you want Tony to become one more like them???
He´ve got what it takes,but he needs to realize that his game will be more powerfull and agressive if he can focus more on asisting tham scoring man.

[George Gervin's Afro]

But,if you love Parker and the Spurs so much,don´t you want Tony to become one more like them???
He´ve got what it takes,but he needs to realize that his game will be more powerfull and agressive if he can focus more on asisting tham scoring man.


Since it seems that Pop wants him to do the things he does it's hard to blame him. What I do blame him for his poor decision making down the stretch and his stubborness in trying to be the 'man'.. I too would like to see him be more of a distributor because in the long run I feel it would benefit the team but I guess I'm just blinded by hatred for feeling that way..

[ArgSpursFan]

Since it seems that Pop wants him to do the things he does it's hard to blame him. What I do blame him for his poor decision making down the stretch and his stubborness in trying to be the 'man'.. I too would like to see him be more of a distributor because in the long run I feel it would benefit the team but I guess I'm just blinded by hatred for feeling that way..

In my opinion is cause Pop spoiled him too much,He´s been coaching him since Tony was a kid,and Sometimes don´t scream at him like he does with manu and even timmy.

[telecomguy]

I don't think dumping into Tim in the post is exactly an "asssist". Anyone can dump it into Tim when he is in the post. If Tony passes to Tim or other Spurs when they are cutting to the basket and gets easy layup, that is a true assist. In the Philly game, I saw Brent cut really hard (tony had the ball in his hand, just dribbling at the time looking for some opening) to the basket and was wide open, had his hands out looking for entry pass from Tony for easy layup....Tony either never saw him or didn't have the confidence to pass it to Brent. Nash would have laid that ball right into Brent for easy layup....herein lies the difference. Good PG gives the other players all kinds of easy layups and wide-open jumpers....those are assists, not dumping it into Tim who is being double teamed and forcing Tim to do something with the ball with 7 seconds left on the clock.

Also watching Tony shoot jumpers yesterday (all from mid-range) was painful. Guys like Nash, or even Cassell would simply not miss an uncontested 18 footers as often as Parker does...and lot of his shots don't even come close. I don't know why he has such a hard time developing a reliable jump shot. Without it, he will always be one-dimensional player who can be stopped easily once the defence decides to stop the dribble penetration in the 4th quarter when everything gets more intense and tighter.

[telecomguy]

Stats not aside.

The stats speak volumes.

Period.


WRONG. Stats often lie...and this is one of them. The fact is that parker may have high % but he rarely is the guy who is making the plays or attempting the shots in clutch time. If you have watched Parker play in the playoffs, more often than not, he is more or less, a non-factor in the 4th quarter way too often than not. Considering he is supposedly one of the top PG, this is simply unacceptable.

Just look at his 3 point shooting % this year...I belive it is very high....over 45%? Would you therfore say he is one of the best 3 pt. shooters in the league? Too funny.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't think dumping into Tim in the post is exactly an "asssist". Anyone can dump it into Tim when he is in the post. If Tony passes to Tim or other Spurs when they are cutting to the basket and gets easy layup, that is a true assist. In the Philly game, I saw Brent cut really hard (tony had the ball in his hand, just dribbling at the time looking for some opening) to the basket and was wide open, had his hands out looking for entry pass from Tony for easy layup....Tony either never saw him or didn't have the confidence to pass it to Brent. Nash would have laid that ball right into Brent for easy layup....herein lies the difference. Good PG gives the other players all kinds of easy layups and wide-open jumpers....those are assists, not dumping it into Tim who is being double teamed and forcing Tim to do something with the ball with 7 seconds left on the clock.

Umm... dumping it into Tim and and then Tim posting up or working for a shot doesn't count as an assist in the stats. I think that was the point the poster was trying to make.


Also watching Tony shoot jumpers yesterday (all from mid-range) was painful. Guys like Nash, or even Cassell would simply not miss an uncontested 18 footers as often as Parker does...and lot of his shots don't even come close. I don't know why he has such a hard time developing a reliable jump shot. Without it, he will always be one-dimensional player who can be stopped easily once the defence decides to stop the dribble penetration in the 4th quarter when everything gets more intense and tighter.

He actually has a pretty reliable jumpshot and has since about midway through last season.

Yesterday, he didn't do well from outside (1-for-4 outside the lane), however Manu was 1-for-6 outside the lane - it doesn't mean either of them can't shoot.

[MannyIsGod]

I'd much rather have Tony shooting than any other guard on this team. Outside or inside.

[Kori Ellis]

In my opinion is cause Pop spoiled him too much,He´s been coaching him since Tony was a kid,and Sometimes don´t scream at him like he does with manu and even timmy.

:lmao
:lmao
:lmao

He yells at Tony far above more than anyone on the entire team and always has.

This post of yours right here proves how ridiculous you are being about this subject.

[ArgSpursFan]

:lmao
:lmao
:lmao

He yells at Tony far above more than anyone on the entire team and always has.

This post of yours right here proves how ridiculous you are being about this subject.

Well,I guess I´m the only one who thinks Tony´s game has changed from ok, to not that good ,since he´s became the team´s 1st. scoring option.

[Kori Ellis]

Well,I guess I´m the only one who thinks Tony´s game has changed from ok, to not that good ,since he´s became the team´s 1st. scoring option.

Tony's game has gone from good to very good over the last 2 years. No one is saying he's perfect. However, the majority of the time, he's doing exactly what the Spurs want him to do.

You can sit all day and rag on Tony, but the bottom line is that the Spurs want him to score. He's not going to be a 10+ apg point guard and the Spurs don't want him to be.

He and Tim both shoot 14 times a game. Manu shoots 13 times a game (in less minutes). They are all options and neither one is clearly the first option. It's a team offense between the big 3.

[ArgSpursFan]

Tony's game has gone from good to very good over the last 2 years. No one is saying he's perfect. However, the majority of the time, he's doing exactly what the Spurs want him to do.

You can sit all day and rag on Tony, but the bottom line is that the Spurs want him to score. He's not going to be a 10+ apg point guard and the Spurs don't want him to be.

He and Tim both shoot 14 times a game. Manu shoots 13 times a game (in less minutes). They are all options and neither one is clearly the first option. It's a team offense between the big 3.

We have talked about this before Kori,the fact that his numbers have improved don´t mean that his game and the overall team´s game have improved.

Allen Iverson´s type of game may be fun to watch but don´t win no championships.

[Kori Ellis]

We have talked about this before Kori,the fact that his numbers have improved don´t mean that his game and the overall team´s game have improved.

Allen Iverson´s type of game may be fun to watch but don´t win no championships.

I'm not talking just about numbers.

I'm talking about his ability to penetrate. His vision. His focus. His leadership. His form on his jumpshot. His concentration on his free throw shooting.

He's not flawless, but everyone in and around the Spurs organization and every GM in the league will tell you how drastically he has improved over the last few years.

I know you don't like his game, but he's extremely valuable to the Spurs winning. And whether you believe it or not, his focus is on winning, not on showing off and being a celebrity.

[fred33]

I'm not talking just about numbers.

I'm talking about his ability to penetrate. His vision. His focus. His leadership. His form on his jumpshot. His concentration on his free throw shooting.

He's not flawless, but everyone in and around the Spurs organization and every GM in the league will tell you how drastically he has improved over the last few years.

I know you don't like his game, but he's extremely valuable to the Spurs winning. And whether you believe it or not, his focus is on winning, not on showing off and being a celebrity.

[ArgSpursFan]

I'm not talking just about numbers.

I'm talking about his ability to penetrate. His vision. His focus. His leadership. His form on his jumpshot. His concentration on his free throw shooting.

He's not flawless, but everyone in and around the Spurs organization and every GM in the league will tell you how drastically he has improved over the last few years.

I know you don't like his game, but he's extremely valuable to the Spurs winning. And whether you believe it or not, his focus is on winning, not on showing off and being a celebrity.

I like parker,but I loved the 2005 or the 2003 less flahie Parker tham the 2005 version.eventhough he´s numbers were poorest tham right now,the team was moving the ball better tham right now.

[fred33]

yeah kori!! watch the game yesterday he was sober for the team 8pt 8pd good def on andre miller. and i think he's cool on his relationship wiith eva longoria. that could be worst he's dating a celebrity!

[pppp]

Well since Carlos Boozer's stats are better than Tim's then those stats tell you that he is a better player. :rolleyes

Those stats don't lie :lol :lol :lol
:huh what kind of logic is that ??

Try to think about it this way : Boozer having better stats doesn't mean that he is a better player than Tim, but that maybe he played better so far this season ....(that is very debatable and, for the record, I don't think Boozer is a better player than Tim Duncan for many reasons).

Stats won't tell you how good (or not) a player is , but can be an indicator of how a player has been playing...do you see the difference?

But stats won't tell you everything...I even think that too much emphasis is put on stats in the NBA.

Basketball just can't be translated in numbers, you can't judge how people play based solely on stats. Plus it depends on the team you play in,
the system, the context, etc....

But stats can also be an indicator, you can't just dismiss them when they don't suit "your" reality.....

FYI
Boozer
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
06-07 UTA 41 41 37.0 .560 .000 .699 3.3 8.7 12.0 3.2 1.0 0.3 2.80 3.10 22.2

Duncan
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
06-07 SAS 42 42 34.4 .541 .000 .622 2.9 7.6 10.5 3.3 0.7 2.1 2.90 2.50 19.8

[George Gervin's Afro]

:huh what kind of logic is that ??

Try to think about it this way : Boozer having better stats doesn't mean that he is a better player than Tim, but that maybe he played better so far this season ....(that is very debatable and, for the record, I don't think Boozer is a better player than Tim Duncan for many reasons).

Stats won't tell you how good (or not) a player is , but can be an indicator of how a player has been playing...do you see the difference?

But stats won't tell you everything...I even think that too much emphasis is put on stats in the NBA.

Basketball just can't be translated in numbers, you can't judge how people play based solely on stats. Plus it depends on the team you play in,
the system, the context, etc....

But stats can also be an indicator, you can't just dismiss them when they don't suit "your" reality.....

FYI
Boozer
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
06-07 UTA 41 41 37.0 .560 .000 .699 3.3 8.7 12.0 3.2 1.0 0.3 2.80 3.10 22.2

Duncan
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3p% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
06-07 SAS 42 42 34.4 .541 .000 .622 2.9 7.6 10.5 3.3 0.7 2.1 2.90 2.50 19.8

You're right !! Actual facts and stats don't matter !! What's important is what you want to be true, no matter what reality is....

when people can't face reality, or don't wanna see it, notice how they always try to dismiss it first ("stats can be manipulated, etc.")...

And that's exactly why the Parker hate will never stop, no matter what the guy does : because the reality of his play and performances just doesn't really matter anymore...


My point was that stats don't tell the story. Your response , bolded above, seems liike you want it both ways. On one hand you justify your opinion using parker's stats and mocking those who claim "stats don't tell the whole stry". Yet you responded to my stats as stating :

Stats won't tell you how good (or not) a player is , but can be an indicator of how a player has been playing...do you see the difference?

I certainly don't think Boozer is better than TD but those stats (PArker's) could be misleading