Real 9-11 Research

[IronMexican]

Seriously. 100 pages?

[mouse]

Actually I have only heard of their use in anti-armor bullets and artillery. Please tell us all about their use in missiles as a long-burning incendiary.

My point was there are many things out there that burn for a long time.

I was answering your quote.


Explosive materials explode. They don't burn for weeks. The jet fuel burned off fairly quickly; it was the other materials in the building that burned longer




How do people get from the ground floors to the upper floors of a building?

Easy according to you they use jet fuel to burn a hole though the steel beams.



If a plane flew into the third floor of a house and fuel and burning debris fell down the stairs -- or indeed the elevator shaft (my mom had a three floor condo with an elevator) -- it could very possibly ignite my couch.

Leaving the second floor untouched? Your starting to sound like me now.




I can tell you with great certainty that it is not molten.

Molten is like a soup how can a hydraulic excavator pick up a soup like liquid?

And besides I don't care if the steel was molten or not it was on fire and dripping and not from jet fuel, that's really all that counts.

[RandomGuy]

The explosives in the basement would not shoot glass miles out in the public.

Explosives in the basement also would have caused the ENTIRE building to have moved.

In NO video does any part of the building start collapsing until the debris started hitting it, exactly what one would expect from a simple gravity-caused collapse.

The first part of the building to start moving was the area above the impact zone. THAT was plenty high enough to send glass flying for miles, IF EXPLOSVES WERE USED.

If explosives were used, then glass would have been thrown for miles.

If glass was NOT thrown for miles, then explosives were NOT used.

QED

[ChumpDumper]

Ok if I agree that photo was doctored or miss used to prove another point then you have to do the same when I show you photos of something that looks fake also. And speaking of photos why would your boys from the cia/fbi not show any photos or videos of the pentagon?They did -- even the Citgo and Doubletree camera shots that no one in the truth movement notice were released.


The explosives in the basement would not shoot glass miles out in the public.The collapse did not initiate in the basement.


And besides this type of charge cuts through the metal its not like dynamite and just blows everything up like in a coal mine.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/RTM-3/I-Beam-ShapeCharges.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/RTM-3/vlcsnap-157042.png
So now we are back to non-explosive thermite. You need to stick to one or the other.



According to the rescue workers they had to change out their boots every few days cause they would melt.Rubber has a melting point that is quite low compared to other materials. It certainly wouldn't require the temperature needed to melt steel, so melted rubber is not an indicator of melted steel.


And what would you say made these sparks?

http://9eleven.info/moltenstreamthermate.jpgThe best guesses have been aluminum from the plane or lead from a bank of backup batteries in the Fuji Bank offices on those floors. Of course, that has already been discussed at length on these boards, so you already know that.


Molten Steel...blah, blahThere was never any study made of the molten material's composition, so it can't be called molten steel with any authority.

[RandomGuy]

If it was non-explosive thermite, why was the rubble pile so cool?



According to the rescue workers they had to change out their boots every few days cause they would melt.

Molten steel = thousands of degrees fahrenheit.

Massive amounts of thermite, melting massive amounts of steel would mean really really massive amounts of residual heat.

Those boots would not have taken days to melt. You would not have been physically able to get close enough to that much heat without literally frying.

An office fire, followed by a gravity led collapse would still leave some hotspots and would fit the observed phenomenon.

The rubble pile, while not cool to the touch, was far too cool to have been a pile of recently melted steel from a massive thermite reaction.

The fact that humans got anywhere near the area within minutes dictates as much.

The fact that people survived the collapses in some of the stairwells, also says that there wasn't a massive thermite reaction cutting through tons of steel. If there was thermite melting that steel, they would have been incinerated.

If it were simple explosives (i.e nano-thermite), they would have been pulped.

[ChumpDumper]

My point was there are many things out there that burn for a long time.So how much thermite would have to be used to bring down three skyscrapers AND burn for weeks?


Easy according to you they use jet fuel to burn a hole though the steel beams.According to me they travel through elevator shafts.


Leaving the second floor untouched? Your starting to sound like me now.In a three floor building it's lees likely than in a skyscraper of course, but yours was a shitty comparison in the first place.



Molten is like a soup how can a hydraulic excavator pick up a soup like liquid?Exactly my point. You might be catching on yet.


And besides I don't care if the steel was molten or not it was on fire and dripping and not from jet fuel, that's really all that counts.You should care if it is molten because that is your entire argument. That's all that really counts.

But all you've proven in this thread is that fire is hot.

On that count, I agree.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.stahl-online.de/deutsch/Bilder%20Stahlherstellung/1_57011.jpg

http://www.stahl-online.de/deutsch/Bilder%20Stahlherstellung/P9220078_60763.jpg

Source of pictures:

Stahl Centrum (Steel Center) German steel manufacturers association.

http://www.stahl-online.de/english/media_lounge/photos/Steel_production/start.asp

These workers are handling fairly small amounts of melted steel, and require thermal jackets.

What would be required to get near hundreds of tons of melted and near melted steel in a giant rubble pile?

[Galileo]

Journal of 9/11 Studies

Thank you for visiting The Journal of 9/11 Studies, a peer-reviewed, open-access, electronic-only journal, covering the whole of research related to the events of 11 September, 2001. Many fields of study are represented in the journal, including Engineering, Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics and Psychology.

52 Articles

The Missing Jolt: A Simple Refutation of the NIST-Bazant Collapse Hypothesis
Prof. Graeme MacQueen and Tony Szamboti

Obstacles to Persuasion: Lessons from the Classroom
Mark Vorobej

The Ghost in the Machines: Evidence of Foreknowledge in the WTC Hard Drive Recoveries
Michael Fury

Plausibility Of 9/11 Aircraft Attacks Generated By GPS-Guided Aircraft Autopilot Systems
Aidan Monaghan

The Top Ten Connections Between NIST and Nano-Thermites
Kevin Ryan

9/11 and Probability Theory
Dr. Frank M. Legge

The Impact of the 9/11 Terrorist Attacks on the US Economy
Prof. Olivia A. Jackson

Extremely high temperatures during the World Trade Center destruction
Dr. Steven E. Jones, Dr. Jeffrey Farrer, Dr. Gregory S. Jenkins, Dr. Frank Legge, James Gourley, Kevin Ryan, Daniel Farnsworth, and Dr. Crockett Grabbe

Waiting for Seven: WTC 7 Collapse Warnings in the FDNY Oral Histories
Prof. Graeme MacQueen

9/11 and the Twin Towers: Sudden Collapse Initiation was Impossible
Dr. Frank Legge and Tony Szamboti, ME

Analysis of the Mass and Potential Energy of World Trade Center Tower 1
Gregory H. Urich

Appeal Filed with NIST, Pursuant to Earlier Request for Correction
James Gourley, Bob McIlvaine, Bill Doyle, Steven Jones, Kevin Ryan, Richard Gage, Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice

Appendix: Sept. 2007 Response to April 2007 RFC, from NIST

Islam and the 9/11 Wars: Steven Jones Interviews Kevin Barrett
Dr. Kevin Barrett and Dr. Steven Jones

9/11, JFK, and War: Recurring Patterns in America’s Deep Events
Prof. Peter Dale Scott

Solving The Great Steel Caper: DEW-Demolition Contrary Evidence
Dr. Gregory S. Jenkins

Supplemental: DEW-Demolition Contrary Evidence
Dr. Gregory S. Jenkins

9/11 Commission Deception, Cheney’s Actions on 9/11, and Why He Should Testify Under Oath
Prof. Peter Dale Scott

9/11 – Proof of Explosive Demolition without Calculations
Frank Legge, Ph.D.

Conspiracy Theories, Myths, Skepticism, and 9/11: their Impact on Democracy
Frank Legge, Ph.D.

Faulty Towers of Belief: Part II. Rebuilding the Road to Freedom of Reason
Laurie A. Manwell, M.Sc.

Direct Evidence for Explosions: Flying Projectiles and Widespread Impact Damage
Dr. Crockett Grabbe

High Velocity Bursts of Debris From Point-Like Sources in the WTC Towers
Kevin Ryan

Why Did the World’s Most Advanced Electronics Warfare Plane Circle Over The White House on 9/11?
Mark H. Gaffney

Some Physical Chemistry Aspects of Thermite, Thermate, Iron-Aluminum-Rich Microspheres, the Eutectic, and the Iron-Sulfur System as Applied to the Demise of Three World Trade Center Buildings on 9/11/2001
Jerry Lobdill

Faulty Towers of Belief: Part I. Demolishing the Iconic Psychological Barriers to 9/11 Truth
Laurie A. Manwell, M.Sc.

9/11 Family Members and Scholars: Request for Correction Submitted to NIST
Bob McIlvaine, Bill Doyle, Steven Jones, Kevin Ryan, Richard Gage, Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice

Request for an Investigation by the Senate Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health into the Falsification of pH Corrosivity Data for World Trade Center Dust
Dr. Cate Jenkins

Addendum: Request for an Investigation by the FBI into the Falsification of pH Corrosivity Data for World Trade Center Dust
Dr. Cate Jenkins

Revisiting 9/11/2001 --Applying the Scientific Method
Dr. Steven E. Jones

The Sustainability of the Controlled Demolition Hypothesis for the Destruction of the Twin Towers
Tony Szamboti, ME

NIST and Dr. Bazant - Simultaneous Failure
Gordon Ross, ME

The American Empire and 9/11
Prof. David Ray Griffin (Also published in March/April 2007 Issue of Tikkun; here: full-length version with notes)

Proof That The Thermal and Gravitational Energy Available Were Insufficient to Melt Steel in the Twin Towers and 7 World Trade Center on 9/11/01
Prof. Terry Morrone

Jones v. Robertson, A Physicist and a Structural Engineer Debate the Controlled Demolition of the World Trade Center
Gregg Roberts

A description of molten aluminum poured onto rusty steel
Wes Lifferth

The Overwhelming Implausibility of Using Directed Energy Beams to Demolish the World Trade Center
Dr. Gregory S. Jenkins

Statement Regarding Thermite, Part 1
Robert Moore, Esq.

The NIST WTC Investigation--How Real Was The Simulation?, Word version
Eric Douglas, R.A.

9/11 - Acceleration Study Proves Explosive Demolition
Dr. Frank Legge

A Critical Review of WTC 'No Plane' Theories
Eric Salter

Why Indeed Did the World Trade Center Buildings Completely Collapse?, Word Document, French Translation
Dr. Steven E. Jones

Seismic Proof - 9/11 Was An Inside Job (Updated Version III)
by Craig T. Furlong & Gordon Ross

What is 9/11 Truth? - The First Steps
Kevin Ryan

To whom it may concern
Dr. Frank R. Greening

Reply to Dr. Greening (See also How the Towers were Demolished)
Gordon Ross, ME

Intersecting Facts and Theories on 9/11
Joseph P. Firmage

118 Witnesses: The Firefighter's Testimony to Explosions in the Twin Towers
Prof. Graeme MacQueen

NIST Data Disproves Collapse Theories Based on Fire
Dr. Frank Legge

WTC 7: A Short Computation
Prof. Kenneth L. Kuttler

9/11 - Evidence for Controlled Demolition: a Short List of Observations
Dr. Frank Legge

9/11 - Evidence Suggests Complicity: Inferences from Actions
Dr. Frank Legge

Momentum Transfer Analysis of the Collapse of the Upper Storeys of WTC1
Gordon Ross, ME

http://www.journalof911studies.com/

[RandomGuy]

I guess I am not going to get my questions answered.

You know, you don't have to be married to the stupid controlled demolition bullshit to think or even prove there was an evil conspiracy.

It is possible that an evil government conspiracy did it, and just got lucky the buildings collapsed from the fire and damage killing so many people.

It is even possible that they duped the muslim hijackers into doing their dirty work for them through al Qaeda plants.

The whole fixation with the controlled demolition bit always astounds me, as so many in the "truth" movement seem married to the idea, instead of realizing that the mountain of evidence against it marries their whole evil government conspiracy to such an easily debunked idea.

IF I were truly a shill for that evil conspiracy, I would be doing everything in my power to push "controlled demolition" as part of a disinformation campaign, because it is so obviously stupid.

[Galileo]

I guess I am not going to get my questions answered.

You know, you don't have to be married to the stupid controlled demolition bullshit to think or even prove there was an evil conspiracy.

It is possible that an evil government conspiracy did it, and just got lucky the buildings collapsed from the fire and damage killing so many people.

It is even possible that they duped the muslim hijackers into doing their dirty work for them through al Qaeda plants.

The whole fixation with the controlled demolition bit always astounds me, as so many in the "truth" movement seem married to the idea, instead of realizing that the mountain of evidence against it marries their whole evil government conspiracy to such an easily debunked idea.

IF I were truly a shill for that evil conspiracy, I would be doing everything in my power to push "controlled demolition" as part of a disinformation campaign, because it is so obviously stupid.

if your questions were valid, they would be published by a real scientist in a peer reviewed journal.

You are just a crazed conspiracy theorist who posts paranoia on the Internet.

[mouse]

Explosives in the basement also would have caused the ENTIRE building to have moved.

In NO video does any part of the building start collapsing until the debris started hitting it, exactly what one would expect from a simple gravity-caused collapse.

Well if certain beams were cut then maybe it was just so the core columns would collapse, No one has brought up the core columns why would a so called collapse make solid beams break apart.

Many eye witnesses heard and felt bombs coming from the basement. As far as the building moving I don't know if that is 100% true I will have get back to you on that one.

I know there is a video showing white smoke at the bottom of the towers 20 seconds before collapse.




The first part of the building to start moving was the area above the impact zone. THAT was plenty high enough to send glass flying for miles, IF EXPLOSVES WERE USED.

Even if the explosives are deep inside the elevator shaft? And why would there be glass anywhere near the support beams?


If explosives were used, then glass would have been thrown for miles.

Miles? I think your over doing it. Besides the Oklahoma bombing didn't have glass miles away, blocks away maybe but a mile is a long way off brah!



If glass was NOT thrown for miles, then explosives were NOT used.

QED

Wow your really hung up on this glass thing , so if some old lady lives exactly one mile from the Wtc and found a sliver of glass on her car hood you would then say bombs brought down the towers and Bush knew about it?

You would be on my side?

I have this lady's laptop with about 60 different infections I will be on and off line so don't pani,I am not searching for more videos.

[mouse]

if your questions were valid, they would be published by a real scientist in a peer reviewed journal.

You are just a crazed conspiracy theorist who posts paranoia on the Internet.

I may disagree RandomGuy does bring up shit that even the folks from lose change find hard to dispute.

[RandomGuy]

Even if the explosives are deep inside the elevator shaft? And why would there be glass anywhere near the support beams?

Miles? I think your over doing it. Besides the Oklahoma bombing didn't have glass miles away, blocks away maybe but a mile is a long way off brah!

Wow your really hung up on this glass thing , so if some old lady lives exactly one mile from the Wtc and found a sliver of glass on her car hood you would then say bombs brought down the towers and Bush knew about it?

You would be on my side?

I have this lady's laptop with about 60 different infections I will be on and off line so don't pani,I am not searching for more videos.

Explosives large enough to destroy the massive steel columns holding a million tons of building up would create blast waves powerful enough to blow out exterior glass and propel debris from the exterior offices at a thousand+ of feet per second.

"free fall" from the top of the building, as you are aware, takes 9 seconds.

The collapse started a little ways down, call it 5-7 seconds for free fall.

What is 7 seconds to fall, times 1000 feet per second out?

That is, by a very simple calculation, 7000 feet, well over a mile.

Your own pictures used to say "here this is an explosion" show stuff falling more down than outwards, pretty much showing debris NOT moving outwards at 1000+ feet per second.

http://www.uxoinfo.com/uxoinfo/ordhazards.cfm


Detonation velocities of high explosives range from approximately 9,000 feet per second to more than 27,000 feet per second.

Riddle me this Galileo:

If something takes, say five seconds to fall vertically, and you propel it horizonatally at 9000 feet per second, how far away from the point of origin will that object hit the ground?

The debris field from demolishing a skyscraper using high explosives, even shaped charges that direct MOST of the energy towards the columns would have meant debris like shards of glass spread over ALL of manhattan.

[RandomGuy]

Miles? I think your over doing it. Besides the Oklahoma bombing didn't have glass miles away, blocks away maybe but a mile is a long way off brah!

The Oklahoma city bombing was done from the exterior of the building AND was as ground level.

Parts of the truck were found thousands of feet way by the investigators.


The blast destroyed or damaged 324 buildings in a sixteen-block radius,[37] destroyed or burned 86 cars around the site, and shattered glass in 258 nearby buildings[38] (the broken glass alone accounted for 5% of the death total and 69% of the injuries outside the Murrah Federal building).[39]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

[RandomGuy]

The effects of the blast were equivalent to over 5,000 pounds (2,300 kg) of TNT,[30][42] and could be heard and felt up to 55 miles (89 km) away

I believe I have made the point that if there were enough explosives present and detonated to bring down a skyscraper it would be heard for miles.

Thanks for brinnging up the Oklahoma city bombing. It is good to see what actual explosives will do.

[mouse]

The Oklahoma city bombing was done from the exterior of the building AND was as ground level.

Parts of the truck were found thousands of feet way by the investigators.


According to you the Ryder truck windshield should have landed one mile away.


And how do the folks in Vegas have the large crowds only 10 blocks away when they bring down a Casino?

And what about the bombings in Iraq of the UN the glass only traveled a few blocks.

[mouse]

I guess I am not going to get my questions answered.

You know, you don't have to be married to the stupid controlled demolition bullshit to think or even prove there was an evil conspiracy.

I am not sure if you should lump me in with others who are fixated on the demolition part, or the conspiracy part. I just don't buy the stories put out on the news when I can see with my own eyes those buildings had help in coming down.


It is possible that an evil government conspiracy did it, and just got lucky the buildings collapsed from the fire and damage killing so many people.

The hot metal pools in the basement suggest to me something down there had help in removing most of the main center support beams. If the middle columns of both towers had stayed some what erect and if there were no fires weeks later in the basement, I would maybe consider the pancake theory. But those elevator shafts were built with very thick and solid beams I just don't see floors coming down would make them disappear like they did.

Sorry but as much as I appreciate you presenting this evidence it goes beyond basic physics in my views.


It is even possible that they duped the muslim hijackers into doing their dirty work for them through al Qaeda plants.

The WTC had been a huge target already in 93 I think that's when someone tried to bring the towers down with a truck in the basement.

If the kids in my hood tried to steal my x box but didn't bring the right tools the first time you don't think I know they may try again? Only this time I ignore rumors they are coming back and I get insurance and leave the front door unlocked. It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out WTC towers were going to get hit why else did they have military drills and paper work on the planes hitting the towers? Why did that vitamin efficiency old fart Larry Silverstein get that huge insurance policy weeks before the event?

All those stock options on the airlines a record day. Rice telling her friends not to use commercial flights a week before, The WTC which has never had a complete black out had the power turned off over the weekend?

Bomb sniffing dogs were removed the week of 9/11. come on brah you can't debunk everything but I am sure there is a website that will even debunk Jesus if you look hard enough.



The whole fixation with the controlled demolition bit always astounds me, as so many in the "truth" movement seem married to the idea, instead of realizing that the mountain of evidence against it marries their whole evil government conspiracy to such an easily debunked idea

There is a reason, when something collapses it falls in a not so uniform fashion. it may slow down when it hits certain floors, it may trap many office workers , and millions of paper work, it may look like this.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p55/RackTheMouse/RTM-3/vlcsnap-741643.png

Instead it looked like this?

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/wtc/ndocs/tower2_exp1.jpg


what is with all that debris flying outwards? why was the cement pulverized? Are you not curious?

Or is this an area you refused to budge in? I admitted that photo could be fake of the men around that glow in the ground. But yet you can't admit this photo doesn't look like a normal collapse?

I thought you said you was open to learning the facts? Do you not notice a difference from floors that are piled up on each other from floors that are powder?





IF I were truly a shill for that evil conspiracy, I would be doing everything in my power to push "controlled demolition" as part of a disinformation campaign, because it is so obviously stupid.

Well I am sorry you feel this way. I don't think any of it is stupid those people lost their lives and cant speak about what took place its up to us who are still alive to find the real meaning of it all.

To be honest I don't give a rats ass If Bush knew anything or if there were really bombs in the WTC towers. I just don't like all the lies and the way Bush and his people kept it so secretive. Bush had to go with someone else in order to be interviewed and questioned? The 9/11 commission is going to leave out WTC7? You and Chump of all people should be outraged about it. But you won't show any out rage, your afraid to be labeled a tin foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.

[mouse]

[IMG]

These workers are handling fairly small amounts of melted steel, and require thermal jackets.

What would be required to get near hundreds of tons of melted and near melted steel in a giant rubble pile?

You don't think the jackets are used because of safety policies? That's like saying this man has to were this protective vest to work on the road so he doesn't get hurt.

http://annarborchronicle.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/treegirthmeasurement.jpg


This man has to wear his goofy hat to keep Ebola virus from soaking in his brain

http://www.nonofficejobs.com/picts/Butcher.jpg

[mouse]

This man here has what looks like a butcher coat on shouldn't he be liquid by now?


http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/06Qg8y748rfh8/610x.jpg

[RandomGuy]

According to you the Ryder truck windshield should have landed one mile away.


And how do the folks in Vegas have the large crowds only 10 blocks away when they bring down a Casino?

And what about the bombings in Iraq of the UN the glass only traveled a few blocks.

Ever notice that they remove most of the windows in those buildings before they demolish them? This is to keep the overpressure from the explosives from throwing the glass out.

Watch a documentary on how this stuff is done sometime.

Or just watch 30+ videos of actual demolitions here:

http://www.biggerblast.com/index.php/Table/Videos/

In every large building that they demolish, they remove every bit of the first 2 or 3 floors that isn't actual structural steel for the sole purpose of mimimizing debris and flying glass.

Read up on that Las Vegas casino and what it took to prep it for demolition.

[RandomGuy]

You don't think the jackets are used because of safety policies? That's like saying this man has to were this protective vest to work on the road so he doesn't get hurt.


http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/NGSPOD/121490-FB~Scientist-in-Full-Helmet-and-Thermal-Suit-Collects-Lava-Samples-Posters.jpg

People who get that close to large amounts of heat need equipment like this for things beyond "safety policies".

Molten steel = thousands of degrees fahrenheit.

Massive amounts of thermite, melting massive amounts of steel would mean really really massive amounts of residual heat.

The rubble pile, while not cool to the touch, was far too cool to have been a pile of recently melted steel from a massive thermite reaction.

The fact that humans got anywhere near the area within minutes dictates as much.

The fact that people survived the collapses in some of the stairwells, also says that there wasn't a massive thermite reaction cutting through tons of steel. If there was thermite melting that steel, they would have been incinerated.

If it were simple explosives (i.e nano-thermite), they would have been pulped.

[Wild Cobra]

Then you never heard of Depleted uranium missiles the heat can burn for days. The Military uses it.

You are talking about a very extreme reaction. DU is used for that intense heat, and it's triggered by a kinetic reaction upon a sold object also. It puts thermite and thermate to shame. I incorrectly marked the image as two piece when it's three piece:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/military/deplededuraniumround.jpg

This is what we are looking at:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/military/M900.jpg

What it looks like with the Sabot separated:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/military/Sabot_separating.gif

[Wild Cobra]

EDIT

Please note I made a serious mistake on the values. I discarded looking up emissivity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissivity), because I thought both in their molten state would be equal, therefore no ratio changes. I changed the posting, correcting for emissivity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissivity). Text changes are italicized and the graphs are changed.

------

Lets put a little perspective on the heat. Steel melts at about 1370 Celsius. We suspect the heat in the towers were anywhere from 1200 to 1800 Fahrenheit (if I recall) while burning and the extra kinetic energy added from falling. Aluminum melts at 660 Celsius. For the purpose of black body radiation calculations, converted to Kelvin, each are about:

Steel: 1643
Aluminum: 933
Heat min: 922
Heat max: 1255

Radiated heat from steel is very high at 52,612 w/m. Aluminum is much lower, about 1/32nd that of steel, at 1,641 w/m. The fires burned at 10,435 to 35,821 w/m. Point is, and from experience working in a aluminum smelter/foundry, you can get a few feet away from molten aluminum with minimal protection. Not steel. Using the inverse square law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_square_law), you would need to be at more than five times farther from molten steel to molten aluminum for the same exposed volume.

Images from Spectral Calc (http://www.spectralcalc.com/blackbody_calculator/blackbody.php):

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC0922K0-20UE80.png

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC0933K0-20UE12.png

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC1255K0-20UE80.png

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC1643K0-20UE40.png

[Jesus is my friend!]

^ one smart vato :tu

[RandomGuy]

Lets put a little perspective on the heat. Steel melts at about 1370 Celsius. We suspect the heat in the towers were anywhere from 1200 to 1800 Fahrenheit (if I recall) while burning and the extra kinetic energy added from falling. Aluminum melts at 660 Celsius. For the purpose of black body radiation calculations, converted to Kelvin, each are about:

Steel: 1643
Aluminum: 933
Heat min: 922
Heat max: 1255

Radiated heat from steel is very high at 131,530 w/m. Aluminum is much lower, about 1/10th that of steel, at 13,677 w/m. The fires burned at 13,044 to 44,776 w/m. Point is, and from experience working in a aluminum smelter/foundry, you can get a few feet away from molten aluminum with minimal protection. Not steel. Using the inverse square law, you would need to be at more than three times farther from molten steel to molten aluminum for the same exposed volume.

Images from Spectral Calc (http://www.spectralcalc.com/blackbody_calculator/blackbody.php):

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/SC0922K0-20U.png http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/SC0933K0-20U.png

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/SC1255K0-20U.png http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/SC1643K0-20U.png

Answer this question then:

Assume that 10 tons of steel were melted to a liquid form from a thermite reaction.

How much radiant heat would that give off if put into a big puddle?

How close could an uninsulated human being stand to that puddle?

[RandomGuy]

Bump, so that WC might see the question.

It is interesting to me to see exactly what the outgrowth would be of actual thermite melting a small portion of the hudreds of thousands of tons of steel in the WTC towers.

[Wild Cobra]

Answer this question then:

Assume that 10 tons of steel were melted to a liquid form from a thermite reaction.

How much radiant heat would that give off if put into a big puddle?

How close could an uninsulated human being stand to that puddle?
Wow, lets see, here's an educted guess...

Keep in mind, you didn't say how large of a puddle... Apply proportional math.

I was exposed to as much as maybe a 10 square feet of surface material at a time after a cell blew, and we were in cleanup. We could get no close than about 5 feet away. All we wore was cotton only clothing. Jeans and shirts, no special clothing. Just very long steel tools. I would say triple that for the same exposed area would be 15 feet, except I made a serious error... I'm going to revise my last post after this one. Emissivity plays a larger role than I thought. For molten aluminum, it is 0.12. For molten steel, it is 0.4, and for fire it is 0.8. My prior calculations were set at the default 1.0. At least emissivity is a linear relationship. With steel at 3 times that of aluminum, at the melting point. This makes that ~10:1 ratio of heat to be 28.85:1. Distance requirements are now more than 5 times greater for molten steel than aluminum.

I don't know how hot the reduction cells ran at. We operated only slightly above melting in the foundry, were I saw temperature gauges. Always mid 1200's F. (melts at 1220 F). I would venture to guess, the converted cells operate at about 800 C to 900 C, even though wiki says:
The operational temperature of the reduction cells is around 950 to 980 °C. My reason is that we converted to the 4.3 volt lower temperature/power setup, and wiki probably uses the 4.7 volt. We were running 99.9999+% pure aluminum under the 4.7 volts, but the purity dropped under the lower voltage. Hard to really say for sure, but for argument, I will use the 980. This will reduce the ratio rather than accidentally increasing it. Just being conservative... That's allot of savings of power and reduction of heat to reduce the voltage.

Molten aluminum at 660 C = 9333 K = 1,641 watts/meter of heat
Molten aluminum at 980 C = 1253 K = 5,339 W/m (my probable experience)
Molten Steel at 1370 C = 1643 K = 52,612 W/m.
Molten steel at 1427 C = 1700 K = 60,301 W/m. (a little higher than melting)

OK, it's still close to a 10:1 ratio (accidentally) and I would say a person just wearing heavy plain clothing would need to be at least 15 ft. away from an exposed area of molten steel of about 10 square feet. The hotter you make it, or the larger the surface area, the farther away. Aluminum at just melting would be 1641 watts. Back to the greater than 5:1 ratio for distance from the same exposed area between steel and aluminum at the melting point.

Appropriate graphs:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC0933K0-20UE12.png

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC1253K0-20UE12.png

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC1643K0-20UE40.png

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC1700K0-20UE40.png

[Wild Cobra]

Now that I gave what I think is an honest, conservative appraisal, I decided to apply the power difference from the same cell operating at 4.7 volts to 4.3 volts. Assuming near linear ratios to the heat apply, the cells would operate at 897 C or 1170 K.

Molten aluminum at 660 C = 9333 K = 1,641 watts/meter of heat
Molten aluminum at 897 C = 1170 K = 4,059 W/m (my probable experience)
Molten Steel at 1370 C = 1643 K = 52,612 W/m.
Molten steel at 1427 C = 1700 K = 60,301 W/m. (a little higher than melting)

Cell temperature to steel at the melting point is now 3.6:1 ratio for the necessary distance. 3.9:1 at the higher melted temperature I listed. The distances rather than 15 ft. would now be to 18 to 19 ft.

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC1170K0-20UE12.png

[RandomGuy]

Hmm.

Total rubble weight was given at about a million tons.

Much of that was steel.

Go for a conservative estimate of 50% of that.

500,000 tons

Assume that the thermite theory were correct, and that thermite melted one tenth of one percent of that in order to collapse the building in the manner postulated.

500,000*.001= 500 tons of molten steel, interpersed rather evenly within the 7 story tall debris pile.

Assuming that the pile was roughly 50% unmelted, air temperature steel and 50% concrete, what would the average temperature of the whole pile have been?

Assume conservatively that the molten steel was melted at a temperature (Kelvin) that was 1% greater than required to produce liquid steel.

[Wild Cobra]

Hmm.

Total rubble weight was given at about a million tons.

Much of that was steel.

Go for a conservative estimate of 50% of that.

500,000 tons

Assume that the thermite theory were correct, and that thermite melted one tenth of one percent of that in order to collapse the building in the manner postulated.

500,000*.001= 500 tons of molten steel, interpersed rather evenly within the 7 story tall debris pile.

Assuming that the pile was roughly 50% unmelted, air temperature steel and 50% concrete, what would the average temperature of the whole pile have been?
I cannot calculate that. Not qualified. I have seen temperatures estimated from the kinetic energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenetic_energy) of the destruction that would likely dwarf anything that the stated thermite would add.

added...


500,000*.001= 500 tons of molten steel, interpersed rather evenly within the 7 story tall debris pile.
Thermite reached as much as 2500 C (2773 K). Ambient temperature is about 290 K

0.001 * 2773 = 2.73
0.999 * 290 = 289.71 +2.73 = 292.44, or a 2.44 degree rise in temperature.

I doubt it added any notable heat compared to the kinetic energy.

[Manu on Fire]

I come to this forum to get away from collage and you post this shit?:bang

[RandomGuy]

I cannot calculate that. Not qualified. I have seen temperatures estimated from the kinetic energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenetic_energy) of the destruction that would likely dwarf anything that the stated thermite would add.

One would need to know the amount of heat energy in 500 tons of liquid steel, at a temperature of about 1% (kelvin) over what would be required to bring it to a liquid state.

One would need to then take that and apply it to the specific heat (how much energy it would take to heat the material by one degree) of the remaining steel and the specific heat of the remaining concrete.

It is a safe assumption that the liquid would be relatively evenly dispersed (from the very vigorous mixing involved in the collapse itself), and that the heat from that liquid steel would therefore be relatively quickly absorbed by the remaining debris due to that dispersal.

Discount for a moment, the heating effect of the collapse itself.

[RandomGuy]

I come to this forum to get away from collage and you post this shit?:bang

Sorry. I love chemistry and physics. :lol

[Wild Cobra]

Sorry. I love chemistry and physics. :lol
Chemistry and physics is how to easily disprove the "truthers."

Even Global Warming!

[RandomGuy]

I cannot calculate that. Not qualified. I have seen temperatures estimated from the kinetic energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenetic_energy) of the destruction that would likely dwarf anything that the stated thermite would add.

added...


Thermite reached as much as 2500 C (2773 K). Ambient temperature is about 290 K

0.001 * 2773 = 2.73
0.999 * 290 = 289.71 +2.73 = 292.44, or a 2.44 degree rise in temperature.

I doubt it added any notable heat compared to the kinetic energy.


Hmm. One would also have to consider the heating effects of the fire before hand as well.

Starts to get complicated at that point, also given that there is also the matter of 500,000 tons of concrete and other debris to heat as well.

[unibrow]

Sorry. I love chemistry and physics. :lol


I thought it was algebra! :lmao

[Wild Cobra]

I thought it was algebra! :lmao
Without algebra, you don't have a necessary tool for chemistry or physics. Sorry you think that's a laughing matter.

We were talking about heat and blackbody radiation, you know.

[Wild Cobra]

http://imagecache.allposters.com/images/pic/NGSPOD/121490-FB~Scientist-in-Full-Helmet-and-Thermal-Suit-Collects-Lava-Samples-Posters.jpg

People who get that close to large amounts of heat need equipment like this for things beyond "safety policies".

I decided to look up the emissivity and temperature of lava. Emissivity ranges from .96 to .98. Temperature from 700 C to 1200 C.

700 C at .96 emissivity is 15,541 W/m.

1200 C at .98 emissivity is 83,308 W/m.

Quite the range and can get quite hot!

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC0700C0-20UE96.png

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/science/spectralcalc/SC1200C0-20UE98.png

[Laker Lanny]

I feel like I just gave birth to a Science book reading this shit!

[RandomGuy]

I feel like I just gave birth to a Science book reading this shit!

Back off man, I'm a scientist. (http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=bst&media=WAVS&type=Movies&movie=Ghostbusters&quote=backoff.txt&file=backoff.wav)

[RandomGuy]

I thought it was algebra! :lmao

http://botit.botany.wisc.edu/TOMS_FUNGI/images/EMC2.jpg

[RandomGuy]

I feel like I just gave birth to a Science book reading this shit!

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=57&pictureid=325

[France B-boy]

Sorry. I love chemistry and physics. :lol

:toast

[Nbadan]

Let's take a side by side look of NIST collapse theory fairy-tail (that RG supports) versus video of the real collapse..


QpvejJCrhwM

RG might as well be debating the qualitites of creationism, because his theory has about as much bases in fact....

[RandomGuy]

Let's take a side by side look of NIST collapse theory fairy-tail (that RG supports) versus video of the real collapse..


QpvejJCrhwM

RG might as well be debating the qualitites of creationism, because his theory has about as much bases in fact....

http://www.trephination.net/gallery/macros/cant.jpg

Dude, that was weak, even for your lame ass.

Seriously? You're going with a single angle, blurry ass video spliced rather inexactly into some slides of the NIST collapse?

I'm honestly insulted. Fuck you.

[LnGrrrR]

Let's take a side by side look of NIST collapse theory fairy-tail (that RG supports) versus video of the real collapse..


QpvejJCrhwM

RG might as well be debating the qualitites of creationism, because his theory has about as much bases in fact....

It's fairy-tale, as in a tale (story) containing fantastical elements (such as fairies.) It does not imply that fairies have tails.

[mookie2001]

ive never seen anyone get ruined by nbadan with science

mannyisgod chump have you seen this have you heard about this?

[Galileo]

WTC Electrical Engineer supports AE911Truth

Petitioner of the Month

— Staff

Richard Humenn, photo from time period of WTC buildings construction, joins petition effort. Among more than 600 architects and engineers who have signed our petition, one doesn't get much closer to the inner workings of the WTC than Richard Humenn, our Petitioner of the Month for April. Humenn was the Senior Project Engineer-Electrical who worked on the construction of the WTC from the bidding period to several decades afterward.

Humenn earned a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute in 1954. Shortly after graduating, he spent three years as a first lieutenant and electrical engineer in the US Army, building power plants in South Korea after the Korean war. Upon his return in the late 1950s, he went to work for Joseph Loring, whose firm would eventually win the electrical contract for the construction of the WTC. He began his work on the WTC project around 1963 and continued to be involved until his retirement in 1997.

Last year, AE911Truth arranged an interview with Humenn to get further insight. In that discussion, Humenn admits the building collapses didn't look right. Recalling the robust cage structure of the core columns, exterior columns and hefty girders, he said, "I couldn't visualize the core columns coming down with the floors." He was also surprised that the collapse initiation was at the top instead of the point of impact. After watching the presentation by Richard Gage, Humenn says, "I was compelled to want to see some further investigation."

http://www.ae911truth.org/info/50

641 architectural and engineering professionals and 3564 other supporters including A&E students have signed the petition demanding of Congress a truly independent investigation.

http://www.ae911truth.org/

[ChumpDumper]

ive never seen anyone get ruined by nbadan with science

mannyisgod chump have you seen this have you heard about this?Of course I have seen the simulation. It's a shame we don't have more footage of other sides of the building to see what's going on there. As it is, there is no reason to believe the collapse should look exactly like the simulation.

Props to dan for finally posting a video of the entire collapse.

[Wild Cobra]

Let's take a side by side look of NIST collapse theory fairy-tail (that RG supports) versus video of the real collapse..


QpvejJCrhwM

RG might as well be debating the qualitites of creationism, because his theory has about as much bases in fact....
You really belivive they are good enough to create an accurate model?

That was one model of how many?

I guess you Cherry pick for a living. A friend from High school has a Cherry Orchard in The Dalles, Oregon. Let me know if you need a job.

[mookie2001]

You really belivive they are good enough to create an accurate model?

they need to organize and do some more research huh?, create a panel, group or commission

[ChumpDumper]

I don't think there was enough information to make a truly accurate model.

In addition, there were models with and without the perceived structural damage taken into account.

That YouTube says it is showing the non-impact damage model, so one would expect it to look different from the actual building that had impact damage.

[Nbadan]

http://www.trephination.net/gallery/macros/cant.jpg

Blah...blah...blah....

I'm honestly insulted. Fuck you.

:downspin:

:lmao

[Nbadan]

T
hat was one model of how many?

Many....but the others were even more unrealistic...

[AntiChrist]

Twoofers will eventually tire of this crap and take up cryptozoology.

[AntiChrist]

Still a great video

kcrF346sS_I

[Blue Jew]

I wonder what Alex Jones has to say?

[RandomGuy]

I wonder if someone will actually publish something about 9-11 and submit it for peer review.

[Nbadan]

I wonder if someone will actually publish something about 9-11 and submit it for peer review.

...you mean like the NIST WTC7 report and the 9/11 Commission report?

[RandomGuy]

...you mean like the NIST WTC7 report and the 9/11 Commission report?

Hmm. Can you refresh my memory:

What scientific claims did the 9-11 commission report make?

[Nbadan]

your right, as far as I can tell the 9/11 commission report would have failed any scientific method...yet you buy it...

[ChumpDumper]

your right, as far as I can tell the 9/11 commission report would have failed any scientific method...yet you buy it...It's not a scientific paper.

[Nbadan]

It's not a scientific paper.

....shouldn't the facts used as bases for its claims stand up to research anyway?

[ChumpDumper]

....shouldn't the facts used as bases for its claims stand up to research anyway?What specifically are you talking about?

[Nbadan]

...should or should not the 9/11 Commission report stand up to fact-check?

[ChumpDumper]

What specifically are you talking about?

[Nbadan]

see post 2072

[ChumpDumper]

See post 2071.

[Nbadan]

....if your gonna use a report, scientific or not, as a basis for a theory you support then shouldn't that report stand up to review? Answer the question....

[ChumpDumper]

See post 2071.Answer the question.

[Nbadan]

I guess not..

[ChumpDumper]

I guess you have no specific problem with the 9/11 commission report.

[Nbadan]

and I guess its alright to pick and choose what to believe then...

[ChumpDumper]

and I guess its alright to pick and choose what to believe then...What do you believe really happened before and on 9/11, dan?

[Nbadan]

....so you support a theory, but only if you can pick and choose what facts to believe...

[ChumpDumper]

....so you support a theory, but only if you can pick and choose what facts to believe...What theory do you support, dan?

[Nbadan]

I'm on the side that there was negligence at the FED level.....but I haven't completely closed my mind that elements within our country could have been involved....does that mean the Cheney or Bushco pulled off 9/11....no...

[ChumpDumper]

I'm on the side that there was negligence at the FED levelAs am I.
but I haven't completely closed my mind that elements within our country could have been involved....does that mean the Cheney or Bushco pulled off 9/11....no...So what does that mean?

[Nbadan]

I'm saying that there could exist a more powerful entity besides Bushco and Cheney...after all, Hitler was not driving the Nazi in the 20-30....he was simply a vehicle they used to acheive their goal....

[ChumpDumper]

I'm saying that there could exist a more powerful entity besides Bushco and Cheney.Who?

[Nbadan]

Who indeed...

get this, the 9/11 Commission could be implicated in the torture scandal...from the Commission report....


“Chapters 5 and 7 rely heavily on information obtained from captured al-Qaeda members. A number of these ‘detainees’ have firsthand knowledge of the 9/11 plot. Assessing the truth of statements by these witnesses—sworn enemies of the United States—is challenging. Our access to them has been limited to the review of intelligence reports based on communications received from the locations where the actual interrogations take place. We submitted questions for use in the interrogations, but had no control over whether, when, or how questions of particular interest would be asked. Nor were we allowed to talk to the interrogators so that we could better judge the credibility of the detainees and clarify ambiguities in the reporting. We were told that our requests might disrupt the sensitive interrogation process. We have nonetheless decided to include information from captured 9/11 conspirators and al-Qaeda members in our report. We have evaluated their statements carefully and have attempted to corroborate them with documents and statements of others. In this report, we indicate where such statements provide the foundation for our narrative. We have been authorized to identify by name only ten detainees whose custody has been confirmed officially by the US government.”

911 Report (http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf)

Yes, the 9/11 Commission used statements as truth from prisoners who had been water boarded....

[Nbadan]

The interrogation of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Shaikh Mohammed (KSM) is mentioned as a source 211 times... He was repeatedly waterboarded and tortured ... and it will later be reported that up to 90 percent of the information obtained from his interrogations may be unreliable ... Interestingly, the 9/11 Commission sometimes seems to prefer KSM’s testimony over other sources. For instance, in 2003 the 9/11 Congressional Inquiry reported that the CIA learned in 1996 that KSM and bin Laden traveled together to a foreign country in 1995, suggesting close ties between them ... But the 9/11 Commission will ignore this and instead claim, based on KSM’s interrogation, that KSM and bin Laden had no contact between 1989 and late 1996.

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=com...


KSM underwent at least two sessions and other extreme measures before talking. "KSM required, shall we say, re-dipping," said another former senior intelligence official.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20752717/page/2

So if you support the 9/11 Commission report, you support torture too...

[RandomGuy]

....if your gonna use a report, scientific or not, as a basis for a theory you support then shouldn't that report stand up to review? Answer the question....

Yes it should. Easy question.

[RandomGuy]

So if you support the 9/11 Commission report, you support torture too...


Logical fail.

It is sad to see someone fairly bright be so unable to formulate logically consistant arguments and unable to evaluate evidence in a critically skeptical way.

I'm sure you feel the same way about me.

[Heath Ledger]

ZERO: An Investigation into 9/11 watch it. Im not a CT theorist but this movie definitely can open your eyes to the possibility of shenanigans on 911.

[Blake]

So if you support the 9/11 Commission report, you support torture too...

you internet cred rating took another hit

sheez.

[Blue Jew]

I wonder what Alex Jones has to say!

[RandomGuy]

ZERO: An Investigation into 9/11 watch it. Im not a CT theorist but this movie definitely can open your eyes to the possibility of shenanigans on 911.

It can if one thinks that the makers of that video are honest.

They aren't.

The whole thing was a rather dishonest hack job.

bMZ-nkYr46w

This video will open your eyes to the possibility that the "truth" movement are liars, and not really interested in the truth at all.

[Blake]

I wonder what Alex Jones has to say!

for just $19.99, you can find out

[PixelPusher]

Bump.

You know, I couldn't stand seeing the front page of the political forum full of 9/11 conspiracy threads like this one. I mean, what's the fucking point? Any effort put forth to carefully and diligently deconstruct the conspiracy theory du jour would just result in it being abandonded and quickly replaced by a newer, equally shitty conspiracy. Repeat, ad infinitum.

But now, the entire forum has turned into a steaming pile of batshit. No more threads with ES wielding razor-sharp nuanced views on religion, no more qualified legal analysis from FWDT, no more energy/oil/gas posts from scott...even 101A posts are rare these days. Now it's just an endless stream of right-wing anecdotes. Not even conspriacies most of the time...just shitty anecdotes.

And now that the entire forum has collapsed into a black hole of soppy right wing paranoia - eh, what the hell - I kinda miss these old 9/11 threads. They werre a hell of a lot more fun to read than the mountain of lameness that's taken over now. Elaborate, Byzantine plots vs. rational explanations...pseudo science vs. actual science...the only guys on the right that approach that level of entertainment are the Birthers, and that's probably because they have 9/11 Truther ties.

So, any chance we can get mouse and nbadan back to work on these old 9/11 threads? Anything new? Maybe you guys can work in that new 747 with a laser cannon the Air Force is working on?

Whatever keeps the ol' neurons firing. Whatever it takes to block out mind-numbing shit like this:

http://markc1.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451bb2969e20120a5c02dda970c-800wi

[Nbadan]

We need a new independent investigation, but until the powers that be are no longer in power, I don't think that's possible...it's unfortunate that in this day and age, a conspiracy much like the J.F.K. murder could still be perpetuated (allegedly) ...for now, the truthers have their work cut out for them...but I'm sure the govt. faith crowd said the same thing after the Warren Commission report first came out....it took at least 2 decades for a new independent commission to discredit Warren....who knows how long this one will take to deconstruct but I hope I am still on this earth to see it....

[ChumpDumper]

I'm still waiting for the first comprehensive alternative theory.

I doubt I will be on Earth to see it.

[Nbadan]

How canwe offer an honest alternative theory without an investigation by the same people who might be involved? Should we let murderers head investigation into their crimes too?

[FromWayDowntown]

How canwe offer an honest alternative theory without an investigation by the same people who might be involved? Should we let murderers head investigation into their crimes too?

How will you know what to investigate if you don't at least have some hypothesis to use as a starting point to be proven, disproven, or modified?

[ChumpDumper]

How canwe offer an honest alternative theory without an investigation by the same people who might be involved? Should we let murderers head investigation into their crimes too?


How will you know what to investigate if you don't at least have some hypothesis to use as a starting point to be proven, disproven, or modified?No shit, dan.

Just come up with a theory that fits the facts that are known. If not one person in the entire twoof movement can do that, there is no reason to even think about a new investigation.

Who do you even think might be involved?

Make a list for us.

[Nbadan]

How will you know what to investigate if you don't at least have some hypothesis to use as a starting point to be proven, disproven, or modified?

Actually, I've always said that the key was WTC7....the recent NIST findings contradicted their own earlier findings..,the Pancake-theory crumbled....who's to say with time, the fire-brought-down-WTC7 theory won't crumble too...

[Nbadan]

No shit, dan.

Just come up with a theory that fits the facts that are known. If not one person in the entire twoof movement can do that, there is no reason to even think about a new investigation.

Who do you even think might be involved?

Make a list for us.

:lmao

[Nbadan]

Just come up with a theory that fits the facts that are known. If not one person in the entire twoof movement can do that, there is no reason to even think about a new investigation.

.....not one person in the entire faith-in-govt. crowd has ever offered an explanation that matches all the facts either....so what?

[ChumpDumper]

Actually, I've always said that the key was WTC7....the recent NIST findings contradicted their own earlier findings..What were their earlier findings?


:lmaoAt some point you have accused just about everyone as being in on the 9/11 plot. It got tough to keep track of everyone you accused.

Who do you really think is in on it?

Name them.

[Nbadan]

What were their earlier findings?

Common Chumpy, that is soooooooo..........three years ago...

[Nbadan]

At some point you have accused just about everyone as being in on the 9/11 plot. It got tough to keep track of everyone you accused.

Who do you really think is in on it?

Name them.

Actually, I've never accused anyone....but I don't believe that the entire govt. story has been written...

....Funny you make fun of families that want the truth, but Chumpy, even you fall into a catagory of conspiracy theories - one that believes that the govt., through incompetence, helped it to happen.....

...you are only one degree from that to the second stage, letting it happen..

[ChumpDumper]

Common Chumpy, that is soooooooo..........three years ago...Refresh my memory.


Actually, I've never accused anyone....but I don't believe that the entire govt. story has been written...Because they are in on it, right?

Who in the government is in on it?


....Funny you make fun of families that want the truthStraw man. I am making fun of you.


but Chumpy, even you fall into a catagory of conspiracy theories - one that believes that the govt., through incompetence, helped it to happen.....Yep. The facts back me up. I've named names, too.


...you are only one degree from that to the second stage, letting it happen..What degree are you at?

What do you think really happened on 9/11?

[Blake]

Actually, I've always said that the key was WTC7....the recent NIST findings contradicted their own earlier findings..,the Pancake-theory crumbled....who's to say with time, the fire-brought-down-WTC7 theory won't crumble too...

if fire, caused by debris falling from WTC1 didn't bring down WTC7, what did?

[Nbadan]

if fire, caused by debris falling from WTC1 didn't bring down WTC7, what did?

Whatever the manner, if there was a bigger conspiracy, WTC7 seems to have been brought down the same way WTC1 or WTC2 towers were brought down... that's why I think that instead of investigating WTC1 and WTC2 at substantial costs to taxpayers, the reinvestigation simply focus on WTC7...and I mean a complete investigation, from the building owners, to maintenance, to security, to all the tenants, to the Rudy Guilianni connections, to the causes that started the fires, to the causes that spread the fires, to the chemicals present in the fires, to a re-examination of core pieces...ect...ect...ect...all of it

[Nbadan]

Refresh my memory.

...I think we agreed that this was a complex case and even NIST has contradicted its own findings...

[nuclearfm]

I don't like this thread

[Nbadan]

What degree are you at?

What do you think really happened on 9/11?

As I've said before, I think there is a lot more to this story, the history of our country, that we don't know...

[ChumpDumper]

Whatever the manner, if there was a bigger conspiracy, WTC7 seems to have been brought down the same way WTC1 or WTC2 towers were brought down...But just looking at it, it doesn't seem to have been brought down the same way at all. Planes struck the twin towers, the heated floors sagged and pulled in the perimeter columns until they failed. the core couldn't support the weight by itself so the buildings collapsed, starting at the floors where the planes impacted. There is clear video evidence of the plane impacts, the fires and the perimeter bowing. It's right there. Whatever you believe about the cause, there is no evidence that WTC7 was brought down in the same way because no planes hit it and there was no evidence of the same type of clear perimeter bowing found in both twin towers. Not one eyewitness account says anything about perimeter bowing in WTC7.
that's why I think that instead of investigating WTC1 and WTC2 at substantial costs to taxpayers, the reinvestigation simply focus on WTC7There is much more collected evidence from the twin towers. I can see why thuthers would want to focus on WTC7 because there is much less direct evidence and much more room to inject whatever partial fantasy they came up with this week.
But there was ...and I mean a complete investigation, from the building owners, to maintenance, to security, to all the tenants, to the Rudy Guilianni connections, to the causes that started the fires, to the causes that spread the fires, to the chemicals present in the fires, to a re-examination of core pieces...ect...ect...ect...all of itIf you suspect the building owners, the maintenance, the security the tenants, Giuliani -- go ahead any tell us why.


As I've said before, I think there is a lot more to this story, the history of our country, that we don't know...I didn't ask what you know.

I asked what you think really happened on 9/11?

[mouse]

I asked what you think really happened on 9/11?

Well since you don't like us to post links, and you forbid youtube videos, you will have to just figure it out on your own brah.

[ChumpDumper]

Well since you don't like us to post links, and you forbid youtube videos, you will have to just figure it out on your own brah.Why can't you just post what you think really happened on 9/11?

Not link someone else's video.

[mouse]

Because when we do, you and your Glenn Beck followers keep asking "where did you read that?" "where did you get that info from?" it's kinda hard to keep you guys happy.

I think you know what happened you just want to see who's goat you can get. Well there is a juicy Evolution topic in the club peek in there and tell me how you know for a fact we came from a snail. 25 trillion years ago.

[PixelPusher]

I don't like this thread

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

Because when we do, you and your Glenn Beck followers keep asking "where did you read that?" "where did you get that info from?" it's kinda hard to keep you guys happy.It's pretty well known where you get your info from.

You're just afraid to say what you think.

I understand.


I think you know what happened you just want to see who's goat you can get. Well there is a juicy Evolution topic in the club peek in there and tell me how you know for a fact we came from a snail. 25 trillion years ago.I don't know that for a fact.

What do you think really happened on 9/11?

[RandomGuy]

Well since you don't like us to post links, and you forbid youtube videos, you will have to just figure it out on your own brah.

ooooh it's been awhile since we had dueling youtube videos...

Top 7 9-11 conspiracies debunked in under a minute.
Jb-OFhxvEo8

[ChumpDumper]

Boots Randolph FTW.

[Nbadan]

ooooh it's been awhile since we had dueling youtube videos...

Top 7 9-11 conspiracies debunked in under a minute.
Jb-OFhxvEo8

Pfff...


5ID2b3nb5dA

[Nbadan]

BbR6CE6IlNE

[Nbadan]

smoke and mirrors..

SS0dNaseISM

[911]

xCd6CjIHedE

[911]

PYnMiN7teho

[RandomGuy]

Pfff...


5ID2b3nb5dA

:lmao :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[RandomGuy]

I thought there was some weak stuff before... but now.. bridges? Really?

There is technology that can show how it is altered, please let me know when this highly motivated guy runs the footage he thinks is altered somehow through it and see what happens.

... or maybe takes a class in photographic perspective. The bridge is, in those shots, exactly where it is supposed to be.

If you don't understand that... you probably think a giant robot really is handing this girl a soda.

http://visualfunhouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/transformers1.jpg

[RandomGuy]

http://visualfunhouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/paper-thin-building-optical-illusion.jpg

Here is another faked photo that shows something the government doesn't want you to see, we have the technology to make two dimensional buildings!

[Shastafarian]

I enjoyed his use of the term "big bridge". Shows he really researched the topic.

[ChumpDumper]

dan, are you saying YOU believe all that video is faked?

Yes or no.

[mouse]

We post a video it's funny and fake you post a video it's real and fact, anyone notice a pattern here?

reQZT9Hzvt8

[Nbadan]

dan, are you saying YOU believe all that video is faked?

Yes or no.

I'm saying that this stuff needs to be investigated....that's why I want a completely independent investigation...starting with WTC7...

[mouse]

I'm saying that this stuff needs to be investigated....that's why I want a completely independent investigation...starting with WTC7...

Trying to get that through Chump's thick crow magnum head is like trying to get the 9/11 commission to write a book worth reading.

But after watching this clip it all makes sense now.

blUTIUxh-Mk

[Nbadan]

Seriously, we spend millions on ice we let melt on an airport runway...what's a reinvestigation gonna costs? 100 million? .... best damn $100 million we'll ever spend, provided that the committee isn't made up of political good-ole boys...

[Nbadan]

I thought there was some weak stuff before... but now.. bridges? Really?

Pfff...

Every-time you make a prediction (based on your facts) you turn out to be wrong....like the time you predicted we wouldn't see $4 gas for 5 years, what'd that take, 1.5 years to prove you wrong....now your making predictions about a sluggish economy that will 'take a decade to recover from'.....while some of us who saw the bigger picture are basking in the profits of a 10000 Dow... your like the golden goose.....keep it up and I'll keep betting against you....

[ChumpDumper]

I'm saying that this stuff needs to be investigated....that's why I want a completely independent investigation...starting with WTC7...Are you saying the videos you posted need to be investigated?

[RandomGuy]

Chump's thick crow magnum head

Seriously, that hurt my brain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon

[RandomGuy]

We post a video it's funny and fake you post a video it's real and fact, anyone notice a pattern here?

reQZT9Hzvt8

More recycled, disproven hash.

This is another one of those "no-planers". "all the video is faked" bla bla bla.

xkivdEGph9A

Never mind all the eyewitness accounts of large passenger planes, they are all in on it.

Never mind the media, they are all in on it too.

So many people are in on this conspiracy.. why have none of these people who are in on it come forward, even anonymously?

GMAFB.

[RandomGuy]

Here we go again.

New shit is being thrown against the wall to see if it sticks.

Yay.

[RandomGuy]

Pfff...

Every-time you make a prediction (based on your facts) you turn out to be wrong....like the time you predicted we wouldn't see $4 gas for 5 years, what'd that take, 1.5 years to prove you wrong....now your making predictions about a sluggish economy that will 'take a decade to recover from'.....while some of us who saw the bigger picture are basking in the profits of a 10000 Dow... your like the golden goose.....keep it up and I'll keep betting against you....

I actually didn't predict that thing about the gas. I do believe that gas will get more expensive on a fairly sustained basis for the rest of my life.

Feel free to post a link to the comment you think I made regarding that.

You keep your money in the Dow, Dan, it is a fairly good investment long term. I stand by my predictions about the economy. You might want to stop equating the dow withe the economy, though. The two are linked but not synonymous.

[baseline bum]

More recycled, disproven hash.

This is another one of those "no-planers". "all the video is faked" bla bla bla.

xkivdEGph9A

Never mind all the eyewitness accounts of large passenger planes, they are all in on it.

Never mind the media, they are all in on it too.

So many people are in on this conspiracy.. why have none of these people who are in on it come forward, even anonymously?

GMAFB.

Eye-witness accounts are trustworthy, but the corporate media in this country isn't worth shit. It definitely indoctrinates people, whether it's beating the drum for the invasion of Iraq, constraining the healthcare debate so that logical options like Medicare for all are never discussed, always acting like at worst, the Iraq fiasco was good intentions gone wrong instead of military aggression, and so on.

[DarrinS]

We post a video it's funny and fake you post a video it's real and fact, anyone notice a pattern here?

reQZT9Hzvt8


Good Lord! This crackpot is a Texas A&M professor? That's embarassing.

[RandomGuy]

Shameless self serving bump #1,497

[TeyshaBlue]

Shameless self serving bump #1,497

Worthy.

[Nbadan]

You keep your money in the Dow, Dan, it is a fairly good investment long term. I stand by my predictions about the economy. You might want to stop equating the dow withe the economy, though. The two are linked but not synonymous

The combination of high productivity due to low employment and stimulus spending is a investor's dream...

[RandomGuy]

Eat this. (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/Bazant_WTC_Collapse_What_Did__Did_No.pdf)

Some light reading.

[Nbadan]

Eat this. (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/Bazant_WTC_Collapse_What_Did__Did_No.pdf)

Some light reading.

Some more lite reading

Link (http://heiwaco.tripod.com/blgb.htm)

[ChumpDumper]

Oh man. A heiwa link? :lmao

[Nbadan]

Oh man. A heiwa link? :lmao

:rolleyes

The Missing Jolt (http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/TheMissingJolt4.pdf)

[ChumpDumper]

:rolleyes

The Missing Jolt (http://journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/TheMissingJolt4.pdf)Why are shipbuilders and professors of religion the only people writing papers about 9/11?

:rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

OK, the shipbuilder's theory is that if you dropped the upper block of the WTC on the rest of the building from an altitude of as much as one mile, the lower part of the building would simply catch it and it would still be up there to this day.

He actually tried to liken it to a collision of two ships. "Both ships are damaged, and after a while the local destruction is arrested, etc."

He's a laugh riot.

[Nbadan]

Care to address Tony Szamboti?

[ChumpDumper]

Care to address Tony Szamboti?Yes, and his theology professor partner -- don't forget him.

A normal video simply does not have the frame rate required to measure the brief deceleration that would occur in such a collapse. Had they bothered to model the collapse, they could have figured this out.

Also, it is well known that the tower tops tilted when they fell, so the impacts on the lower floors were never going to be uniform.

The Bazant paper and the NIST never really addressed exact points of acceleration or deceleration or impact. They didn't have to. All they had to find out if collapse was going to happen with the forces involved. They simplified their model with a rigid upper block that fell straight down to show this, and nutters thought they were saying this is officially what happened.

Bazant and Zhou actually made a model that would have been the best case scenario for a collapse that would have a chance of resulting in the bottom block's "catching" the top block and arresting the collapse: a rigid top block falling directly and uniformly down onto the lower block.

And it still collapsed.

Neither Bjorkman, Szamboti or MacQueen could ever figure that out.

[Nbadan]

Bažant suggested that heat from the fires was a key factor, causing steel columns in both the core and the perimeter to weaken and experience deformation, before losing their carrying capacity and buckling.

http://dc911truth.org/images/woman_wtc.jpg

...next...

[Nbadan]

Bažant suggested that heat from the fires was a key factor, causing steel columns in both the core and the perimeter to weaken and experience deformation, before losing their carrying capacity and buckling.

http://dc911truth.org/images/woman_wtc.jpg

...next...

[ChumpDumper]

Do fires spread after they are ignited, dan?

Yes or no.

[Nbadan]

Look, I've never claimed that termite, or explosives destroyed the WTC1 or WTC2...I've always said the key to 9/11 lies with WTC7...

[ChumpDumper]

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/docs/wp_wtc29.jpg

....next....

[ChumpDumper]

double post

[ChumpDumper]

Look, I've never claimed that termite, or explosives destroyed the WTC1 or WTC2...I've always said the key to 9/11 lies with WTC7...You've never made any claims at all.

Does fire spread after ignition?

Yes or no.

[Nbadan]

http://www.prisonplanet.com/images/march2007/050307notaraginginferno2.jpg

next..

[Nbadan]

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2009/Sept/wtc-7.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Why did you change the subject?

You brought up Bjorkman's site and MacQueen and Szambolti's paper -- why do you not want to discuss them anymore?

[Nbadan]

Why did you change the subject?

You brought up Bjorkman's site and MacQueen and Szambolti's paper -- why do you not want to discuss them anymore?

Once again, I've never claimed that WTC1 and WTC2 were brought down by anything other than fire, so this is irrelevant...why do you care to debate irrelevant points?

Why don't you explain why the Bush administration limited access to 9/11 evidence, limited who could be questioned by the commission it created and staffed, and limited the money the commission could use to investigate the most deadly terror attack ever on the continental U.S.?

[ChumpDumper]

Once again, I've never claimed that WTC1 and WTC2 were brought down by anything other than fire, so this is irrelevant...why do you care to debate irrelevant points?You brought up Bjorkmann and MacQueen/Szambolti as some kind of retort to Bazant and Zhou.

You were debating the points RandomGuy brought up.

You asked me specifically to address Tony Szambolti.

You tried to refute Bazant's statement on the fire by posting a picture of a person in an impact hole.

You were discussing points.

I addressed everything you brought up, and suddenly you wanted to change the subject completely.


Why don't you explain why the Bush administration limited access to 9/11 evidence, limited who could be questioned by the commission it created and staffed, and limited the money the commission could use to investigate the most deadly terror attack ever on the continental U.S.?I think he mainly wanted to cover his administration's ass for their lax attitude towards the Islamic terrorist threat before 9/11.

Why don't you tell us all what you think really happened on 9/11?

[Nbadan]

I think he mainly wanted to cover his administration's ass for their lax attitude towards the Islamic terrorist threat before 9/11.

Why don't you tell us all what you think really happened on 9/11?

So the Bush Administration helped cause 9/11....Twoferr..

[ChumpDumper]

So the Bush Administration helped cause 9/11....Twoferr..No, but I don't expect you to understand.

I mean, you can't even say what you think really happened on 9/11.

[Nbadan]

You brought up Bjorkmann and MacQueen/Szambolti as some kind of retort to Bazant and Zhou.

You were debating the points RandomGuy brought up

All I was saying was that the Szambolti paper has been out there for years, where is the academic repudiation?

[Nbadan]

No, but I don't expect you to understand.

I mean, you can't even say what you think really happened on 9/11.

Oh, I understand, your a twofer who thinks that the Bush administration acted negligently by not taking the Islamic threat seriously enough before 911, and failed to act when a threat to homeland became evident...

..I believe some call that treason..

[ChumpDumper]

All I was saying was that the Szambolti paper has been out there for years, where is the academic repudiation?The paper is dated April 2009.

It's academic repudiation is clear; it's not published in any real journal.

Hell, even the anonymous nutters who "peer reviewed" it thought it was fatally flawed:


I was asked to review this paper and recommended against publication unless of the conflation you so rightly identify could be resolved.

I don't think this really throws cold water on B and Z. B and Z is a special case (i.e. the most optimistic) and not intended to model what actually happened. The tilting caused the wham to be spread out in time so there was no 31g impulse.

http://the911forum.freeforums.org/new-jones-paper-by-szamboti-and-graeme-macqueen-t119.html

It's horrible science that even a guy like myself can easily dismantle.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh, I understand, your a twofer who thinks that the Bush administration acted negligently by not taking the Islamic threat seriously enough before 911, and failed to act when a threat to homeland became evident...

..I believe some call that treason..No, you don't understand at all.

Now quit stalling and tell us what you think really happened on 9/11.

[Nbadan]

The paper is dated April 2009.

It's academic repudiation is clear; it's not published in any real journal.

Hell, even the anonymous nutters who "peer reviewed" it thought it was fatally flawed:

Maybe you'd have a point if they didn't think the Bazant and Zhou paper was flawed too...

[Nbadan]

No, you don't understand at all.

Now quit stalling and tell us what you think really happened on 9/11.

Seriously, do you or do you not believe that the Bush administration could have done more to prevent 9/11?

[ChumpDumper]

Seriously, do you or do you not believe that the Bush administration could have done more to prevent 9/11?Sure, just as I believe the Clinton administration and the HW Bush administration and the Reagan administration could have done more. Each made mistakes regarding the threat of terrorism.

Seriously, what do you think really happened on 9/11?

[Nbadan]

Sure, just as I believe the Clinton administration and the HW Bush administration and the Reagan administration could have done more. Each made mistakes regarding the threat of terrorism.


Weren't Muhammed Atta and other 9/11 terrorists being tracked by the Clinton Administration FBI before 2001?

[ChumpDumper]

Weren't Muhammed Atta and other 9/11 terrorists being tracked by the Clinton Administration FBI before 2001?I believe the Hamburg cell was monitored for a time by the CIA and German intelligence, but I don't know of any active "tracking" domestically by the FBI.

[DarrinS]

I don't get how Bush/Cheney/Darth Vader/etc. were able to fool so many people and it's only people like Dan and film school drop-outs who know the real truth. I feel so gullible.

[Nbadan]

I believe the Hamburg cell was monitored for a time by the CIA and German intelligence, but I don't know of any active "tracking" domestically by the FBI.

Wow.....do some research..

[ChumpDumper]

Wow.....do some research..I did.

Did you?

[Nbadan]

I don't get how Bush/Cheney/Darth Vader/etc. were able to fool so many people and it's only people like Dan and film school drop-outs who know the real truth. I feel so gullible.

I don't see how Bush was able to conduct a serious investigation on itself given their general ineptitude at just about everything....

[Nbadan]

I did.

Did you?

Obviously not if you don't know Atta was followed by the FBI when he was in the U.S. prior to 2001...

[DarrinS]

I don't see how Bush was able to conduct a serious investigation on itself given their general ineptitude at just about everything....



And yet, John Edwards (who dat?) can't even keep his baby momma a secret?

YOU are quite gullible Dan. I think you should stop gizzing to your Loose Change DVD and move onto more productive life.

[ChumpDumper]

Obviously not if you don't know Atta was followed by the FBI when he was in the U.S. prior to 2001...Show me where.

[ChumpDumper]

Hello?

[RandomGuy]

Care to address Tony Szamboti?

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/Bazant_WTC_Collapse_What_Did__Did_No.pdf

[RandomGuy]

All I was saying was that the Szambolti paper has been out there for years, where is the academic repudiation?

http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/Bazant_WTC_Collapse_What_Did__Did_No.pdf

[Nbadan]

:sleepy

VKFiGfW6aGY

[ChumpDumper]

WTC 7 didn't fall at freefall speed the entire fall.

WTC 7 didn't fall straight down.

Where there's smoke there is indeed fire.

There is no way to determine of what the molten material consists, nor its total mass.

Thermite!

The firefighters were preparing to move into WTC 7 to fight the fires when the were pulled from the site.

[Nbadan]

WTC 7 didn't fall at freefall speed the entire fall.

:rolleyes


YJ-kNPB-UHQ

[ChumpDumper]

:rolleyes


YJ-kNPB-UHQNot going to watch or listen to it. I already proved Gage is a liar.

Explain to me, in your own words, how falling 2.25 seconds at freefall speed = falling the entire 610 feet at freefall speed.

[Nbadan]

You've never proven crap about Gage, but nice try...


_DuSeuxjiJQ

[Nbadan]

Explain to me, in your own words, how falling 2.25 seconds at freefall speed = falling the entire 610 feet at freefall speed.

Why should I explain your lie? You explain it..

[ChumpDumper]

Of course I have. He just lied about WTC7's falling straight down.

And about its falling at freefall speed the entire fall.

And about molten iron.

And about the firefighters being pulled from their planned assault on the WTC7 fires.

Now, before you try to change the subject again with more hours of Youtube:
Explain to me, in your own words, how falling 2.25 seconds at freefall speed = falling the entire 610 feet at freefall speed.

[ChumpDumper]

Why should I explain your lie? You explain it..Sure.

The top of WTC7 was measured falling at approximately freefall speed for 2.25 seconds.

That does not mean that WTC7 fell at freefall speed throughout the entire fall.

The rest of the time, WTC7 fell at speeds slower than freefall.

Is there a part of that you don't understand?

[ChumpDumper]

Gage from dan's video: "This building came straight down as fast as a freely falling brick from the top of this building."

Tell me, dan: Does this building tilt as it is falling?

AsJQKpnkZ10

Yes or no.

[Nbadan]

Of course I have. He just lied about WTC7's falling straight down.

That the building fell symmetrically isn't even a point of contention among the real debunking crowd...of course it fell symmetrically...

[ChumpDumper]

Please answer.
Gage from dan's video: "This building came straight down as fast as a freely falling brick from the top of this building."

Tell me, dan: Does this building tilt as it is falling?

AsJQKpnkZ10

Yes or no.

[Nbadan]

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/docs/gz_aerial_wtc7.jpg

[Nbadan]

Yes or no.

Inconclusive, but looking at the pile of rubble, I would say no.

[ChumpDumper]

That picture shows the resulting debris pile from the building's collapsing to the south.

Thanks, dan.

[ChumpDumper]

Inconclusive, but looking at the pile of rubble, I would say no.:lmao

Well, I just proved you are a liar as well.

Thanks again. :tu

[Nbadan]

Ok, whatever...

http://www.wtc7.net/docs/June2004WTC7_Page_16_cropped.jpg

Anyway, Even Random-Chump have relunctantly admitted that the alleged damage was asymmetric, confined to the tower's south side, and any weakening of the steelwork from fire exposure would also be asymmetric. Thus, even if the damage were sufficient to cause the whole building to collapse, it would have fallen over asymmetrically -- toward the south. But WTC 7 fell straight down, into its footprint. (except to Chumpy who sees what he wants to see, I guess,)

[ChumpDumper]

But it fell to the south, as you illustrated in the video and your first picture. Do you know which way is south in that picture? I will certainly allow for some debris heading north.

And it wasn't due to the damage shown in your second picture.

[Nbadan]

But it fell to the south..

That's just not supported by the evidence...

http://www.wtc7.net/docs/f24_100.jpghttp://www.wtc7.net/docs/f24_101.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

But it fell to the south..

That's just not supported by the evidence...

http://www.wtc7.net/docs/f24_100.jpghttp://www.wtc7.net/docs/f24_101.jpgWell, it's still standing in that picture (though that one does a good job showing how much smoke was coming out of it from the fires within), but the other one you posted shows most of the debris to the south.

Thanks again for posting it.

[ChumpDumper]

"Inconclusive."

:rollin

[Nbadan]

Anyway, there are tons of pics of WTC7 after the collapse...

http://www.ae911truth.org/images/gallery/FEMA_5-26.jpg
http://www.ae911truth.org/images/gallery/wtc7debris.jpg

Did it collapse South to you?

[ChumpDumper]

Thanks for that last one from the north. It show very clearly the north facade laying on top of the rubble.

Barclay Street looks relatively clear of debris in front of the Academy of Sciences building.

:tu

[Nbadan]

Debunking NIST...

qFpbZ-aLDLY

[ChumpDumper]

Thermate!

[Nbadan]

Thermite!

awy8cmcuBlk

[ChumpDumper]

Ten minute YouTube!

[ChumpDumper]

That's way too long.

The way to destroy "truthers" is to ask them what they think really happened on 9/11.

I will demonstrate.

dan, what do you think really happened on 9/11?

[Nbadan]

:sleep

IxMjqskh3ec

[Nbadan]

Connecting the dots...

HfmliaqIRBE

HSjDCwN2i3w

[ChumpDumper]

No dan, I didn't ask you to post twenty more minutes of YouTube bullshit.

I asked you this: What do you think really happened on 9/11?

[Jacob1983]

Chumpdumper, how confident are you that 9/11 wasn't an inside job?

[ChumpDumper]

Chumpdumper, how confident are you that 9/11 wasn't an inside job?Quite so.

[Jacob1983]

Would you bet your life on it? Are you that confident?

[ChumpDumper]

Would you bet your life on it? Are you that confident?What would I get in return if I win the bet?

[smeagol]

Truthers are stupid.

They cannot articulate why 9/11 was an inside job and who's behind it, how it got planned and executed, etc, etc, etc.

There are so many holes in their retarded theories, it is not even funny.

Truthers ares tupid.

[Jacob1983]

How do we really know that isn't an inside job? It's been almost 10 years and we still do not have all the details about what happened on 9/11.

So dumper, are you willing to bet on your life that 9/11 was not an inside job? If you are that confident, then I will give you props but if not then I would say you're a pussy.
Personally, I would say I'm 50/50 on whether 9/11 was an inside job.

[ChumpDumper]

How do we really know that isn't an inside job? It's been almost 10 years and we still do not have all the details about what happened on 9/11.Which details are you personally lacking?


So dumper, are you willing to bet on your life that 9/11 was not an inside job? If you are that confident, then I will give you props but if not then I would say you're a pussy.
Personally, I would say I'm 50/50 on whether 9/11 was an inside job.What would I win if I bet my life on it? Would you die? Or are you a pussy?

[Jacob1983]

Dumper, you win nothing. I guess the only thing you would win would be the satisfaction of being right if 9/11 was indeed proved to not be an inside job. So I will ask you again, are you willing to bet your life on 9/11 not being an inside job? How confident are you?
Were you there in NYC on 9/11? How do you know for sure what happened? Just sayin'.

Btw, I think you're kind of a pussy for not betting your life on this if you are so confident and right about 9/11. And no, I'm not a pussy.

[admiralsnackbar]

Dumper, you win nothing. I guess the only thing you would win would be the satisfaction of being right if 9/11 was indeed proved to not be an inside job. So I will ask you again, are you willing to bet your life on 9/11 not being an inside job? How confident are you?
Were you there in NYC on 9/11? How do you know for sure what happened? Just sayin'.

Btw, I think you're kind of a pussy for not betting your life on this if you are so confident and right about 9/11. And no, I'm not a pussy.

Seems like a pussy argument to me.

[spursfaninla]

The only way to refute this pile of ridiculousness is to go point by point. And that takes too long.

Rule 1: Conspiracies are based on the fact that what we know is "lies." we have been "lied" to.

Rule 2: The stuff that refutes the conspiracy, is there "lies." The "truth" is covered up.

How do you refute such logic? You can't.

Problem: the government does sometimes lie and cover stuff up. How do we know the difference?

Answer: Don't rely on the "lies" argument. Look at the evidence. Don't advocate a position before looking at the evidence and conveniently pick only the evidence that proves that position. Don't take something as "proven" when some facts are consistent with that and others are not.

the evidence I have seen so far for the "inside job" is refuted over and over again by knowledgeable experts with nothing to gain. This topic is an insult. I have no doubt that Bush did not mind wasting American lives in a stupid war for his own interests, but I just cannot see him (or whomever) blowing up a building with thousands of americans in it on American soil like that.

[DarrinS]

Aliens did it.

[RandomGuy]

:sleep

IxMjqskh3ec

Oddly enough, none of those videos show show to cut vertical columns with thermite.

Nor does it calculate just how much thermite would be necessary to do what CT'ers posit. (answer is: a lot)

Nor does it provide any real evidence of the massive wiring required to put such a thing in place.

nor does it explain how thermite charges might have survived the shock of hundreds of tons of planes' impacting their columns at 500 mph and were fire-proof enough not to go off during the initial fires.

How do you "fire-proof" thermite charges Dan? Do those videos show that?

[Blake]

Aliens did it.

I guess that's one of the reasons for the Arizona legislation.

[ChumpDumper]

Dumper, you win nothing. I guess the only thing you would win would be the satisfaction of being right if 9/11 was indeed proved to not be an inside job.Then why should I make such a bet?


So I will ask you again, are you willing to bet your life on 9/11 not being an inside job? How confident are you?I said I was quite confident. There is no reason to bet my life on it. You are a pussy for not offering anything in return for my betting my life.


Were you there in NYC on 9/11?No.


How do you know for sure what happened?It has been extensively documented by people who were there.


Just sayin'.Just sayin' what? You haven't displayed any knowledge of the events of 9/11 whatsoever. You say "It's been almost 10 years and we still do not have all the details about what happened on 9/11." Well, what details are you lacking to assuage your suspicions that 9/11 was an inside job. I find that most people who say things like that are merely ignorant and lazy; although some are simply liars. Which are you?


Btw, I think you're kind of a pussy for not betting your life on this if you are so confident and right about 9/11. And no, I'm not a pussy.You are absolutely a pussy for demanding a person bet that person's life while risking absolutely nothing yourself in return. That isn't how bets work, pussy.

Now, let's talk about something we might actually be able to do something about: your ignorance.

What details about 9/11 are you missing?

if you don't list them, you are even more of a pussy.

[Jacob1983]

Dumper, you crack me up sometimes.:lol

I will wager something on it. If you are right about 9/11, I will reward you with a $10 dollar Race Trac gift card.

You think I am really hardcore about this stuff like you are? I stated earlier that I was 50/50 on whether it was an inside job. I never said I was 100 percent sure. I just think that it would be nice for Americans if they knew all of the details about what happened in NYC on 9/11. Do you know how much money the government spent on investigating 9/11? Not that much. They spent more on the war in Iraq and this shitty Obama health care plan they did on investigating 9/11.

[ChumpDumper]

Dumper, you crack me up sometimes.:lol

I will wager something on it. If you are right about 9/11, I will reward you with a $10 dollar Race Trac gift card.It would have to be much more than that for me to actually bet my life.


You think I am really hardcore about this stuff like you are?No, I said you are either ignorant or a liar. I personally think you are ignorant.


I stated earlier that I was 50/50 on whether it was an inside job. I never said I was 100 percent sure. I just think that it would be nice for Americans if they knew all of the details about what happened in NYC on 9/11.Again, what details are you missing?


Do you know how much money the government spent on investigating 9/11? Not that much.Tell me the total amount spent in all the investigations by all the agencies, not just the commission.

[RandomGuy]

Dumper, you crack me up sometimes.:lol

I will wager something on it. If you are right about 9/11, I will reward you with a $10 dollar Race Trac gift card.

You think I am really hardcore about this stuff like you are? I stated earlier that I was 50/50 on whether it was an inside job. I never said I was 100 percent sure. I just think that it would be nice for Americans if they knew all of the details about what happened in NYC on 9/11. Do you know how much money the government spent on investigating 9/11? Not that much. They spent more on the war in Iraq and this shitty Obama health care plan they did on investigating 9/11.

One of the interesting things about large-scale accounting is that any given financial statement or computerized general ledger system that tracks financial transactions is inaccurate.

One could, if one spent enough money, get more accurate financial figures, and more accurate pictures of all the thousands of transactions that go into any business.

BUT

At some point, all that money gets you less and less per dollar spent in terms of improving accuracy, i.e. "diminishing returns".

We have to accept a certain level of ambiguity, and accept that although we don't have exact information as to every little nit-picky detail, we have enough information to make reasonable decisions and that we have a reasonably accurate picture of what the financial state of the company is.

This is no different.

We spent a few tens of millions of dollars getting a pretty fair picture of the events of that day.

What would spending tens of billions more gain?

"10:42 Air traffic controller Smith scratched his ass, then went and got another cup of coffee."

We have a pretty good accounting now, if not excruxiatingly precise.

I have no doubt that some chunk of stuff was left out, as the Commission itself admitted that people giving accounts did a lot of "i'm going to make myself look as blameless for this mess as possible" spin. I don't think that the bits that are ambiguous really are "material" or that they really would change the overall picture of that day.

The thing about a lot of what the conspiracy theorists put out there is that it is so easily debunked with a small amount of critical thinking and research.

If you are 50/50 at this point, you probably haven't applied much scrutiny to the "truth" movement.

[Jacob1983]

So you're gonna tell me people can't question events in American and World history? Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter in the JFK assassination? The moon landings really did happen? The refs were great in the 2002 NBA WCF? Let the record be clear, I never said that I was 100 percent sure that 9/11 was an inside job. I merely stated that it's possible. From what I heard, I believe the amount allocated for investigating 9/11 was between 5 to 10 million dollars. If people don't want to hear 9/11 conspiracies then the government needs to reopen the investigation and prove without a doubt that America was not involved at all in 9/11. Even if it wasn't an inside job, there is a slight possibility that the government knew that an attack was going to happen but ignored the warnings and let the attacks on 9/11 happen anyways. That's just as bad as it being an inside job.

[ChumpDumper]

So you're gonna tell me people can't question events in American and World history?You can, but for some reason you aren't. Here is your opportunity. What details are you personally missing about 9/11?



Let the record be clear, I never said that I was 100 percent sure that 9/11 was an inside job. I merely stated that it's possible. From what I heard, I believe the amount allocated for investigating 9/11 was between 5 to 10 million dollars.Even for solely the commission, that number is incorrect.


If people don't want to hear 9/11 conspiracies then the government needs to reopen the investigation and prove without a doubt that America was not involved at all in 9/11.So you demand they spend millions of more dollars to prove a negative.


Even if it wasn't an inside job, there is a slight possibility that the government knew that an attack was going to happen but ignored the warnings and let the attacks on 9/11 happen anyways. That's just as bad as it being an inside job.Warnings were certainly ignored, but mainly out of stupidity.

Now that we have established that you are allowed to question the events of 9/11, what questions do you have about the events of 9/11?

[RandomGuy]

So you're gonna tell me people can't question events in American and World history? Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter in the JFK assassination? The moon landings really did happen? The refs were great in the 2002 NBA WCF? Let the record be clear, I never said that I was 100 percent sure that 9/11 was an inside job. I merely stated that it's possible. From what I heard, I believe the amount allocated for investigating 9/11 was between 5 to 10 million dollars. If people don't want to hear 9/11 conspiracies then the government needs to reopen the investigation and prove without a doubt that America was not involved at all in 9/11. Even if it wasn't an inside job, there is a slight possibility that the government knew that an attack was going to happen but ignored the warnings and let the attacks on 9/11 happen anyways. That's just as bad as it being an inside job.

There were enough pieces to put the puzzle/plot together, but no one person really knew enough to stop it.

That was bad, but fairly understandable, given the climate of the time.

I think it is entirely unreasonable to have expected so many parts of a rather scattered law enforcement landscape to really work together, based on the little bits and pieces that any one person/entity knew.

And, yes, the moon landings happened. But that is a different thread.

[Nbadan]

the evidence I have seen so far for the "inside job" is refuted over and over again by knowledgeable experts with nothing to gain. This topic is an insult. I have no doubt that Bush did not mind wasting American lives in a stupid war for his own interests, but I just cannot see him (or whomever) blowing up a building with thousands of americans in it on American soil like that.

....then you just don't know your history very well, the poor get sent off to war for the rich every generation, some bigger than others, no bigger than the war you are in at the time....poor dieing for rich...

Vietnam, WW1, WW2, down to tiny Granada was about the poor, broke man dieing for the rich...

Iraq, Afghanistan, South America are about the poor, broke man dieing for the rich...

You think these guys who make these decisions to send millions of people to war to kill millions of innocent people in the process so they can control resources give a damn about you or me?

[ChumpDumper]

....then you just don't know your history very well, the poor get sent off to war for the rich every generation, some bigger than others, no bigger than the war you are in at the time....poor dieing for rich...

Vietnam, WW1, WW2, down to tiny Granada was about the poor, broke man dieing for the rich...

Iraq, Afghanistan, South America are about the poor, broke man dieing for the rich...

You think these guys who make these decisions to send millions of people to war to kill millions of innocent people in the process so they can control resources give a damn about you or me?You mean all that oil that Norway, Russia, Italy and Angola are now controlling?

[Nbadan]

Oddly enough, none of those videos show show to cut vertical columns with thermite.

Nor does it calculate just how much thermite would be necessary to do what CT'ers posit. (answer is: a lot)

Thermite is very cheap, and very efficient, so your 'how much' argument is weak..

Did you even watch the video? Thermite wasn't used to 'cut verticle columns'
it was used as a catalyst to weaken the vertical columns...your argument is that 'office equipment, fire and jet fuel did it' ..now that's very weak..

[Nbadan]

You mean all that oil that Norway, Russia, Italy and Angola are now controlling?

Weak.....who controls Iraq? you need to broaden your thinking....seriously..

[ChumpDumper]

Thermite is very cheap, and very efficient, so your 'how much' argument is weak..That isn't an amount, dan.

How much?


Did you even watch the video? Thermite wasn't used to 'cut verticle columns'
it was used as a catalyst to weaken the vertical columns.How was it held in place long enough to weaken a vertical column enough to collapse it?

[ChumpDumper]

Weak.....who controls Iraq? you need to broaden your thinking....seriously..Who controls the oil?

Seriously.

[Nbadan]

What would spending tens of billions more gain?

..the truth...for the 9/11 families and the victim's memory I would spend a trillion dollars to know the truth...even if it was 19 Muslims and a guy in a cave with an Atarii who planned, trained and executed the attack..

[Nbadan]

Who controls the oil?

Seriously.

Who controls the flow of the oil Chumpy? Who controls the 'flow' of the oil in the region?

[ChumpDumper]

..the truth...for the 9/11 families and the victim's memory I would spend a trillion dollars to know the truth...even if it was 19 Muslims and a guy in a cave with an Atarii who planned, trained and executed the attack..dan wants his theory investigated.

You obviously have some thermite based theory -- let's hear it dan.

[ChumpDumper]

Who controls the flow of the oil Chumpy? Who controls the 'flow' of the oil in the region?Well, Iraq certainly auctioned off those contracts to those countries that aren't the US, so one would have to conclude it's the Iraqis.

[Nbadan]

We spent a few tens of millions of dollars getting a pretty fair picture of the events of that day.

No we haven't...we spent more money investigating a Presidential blow job than investigating the largest attack on mainland America ever...the Commission chairmen had to threaten Bush Administration officials so many times that the whole process turned into a farce....tapes, computer emails, and complete files were wiped clean..

[ChumpDumper]

No we haven't...we spent more money investigating a Presidential blow job than investigating the largest attack on mainland America ever...What was the total amount of money spent on the investigation outside of the commission?

Give me a number.

[Nbadan]

Well, Iraq certainly auctioned off those contracts to those countries that aren't the US, so one would have to conclude it's the Iraqis.

..and one can see the billions of dollars in oil money at work in Iraq today, building roads, improving security, building a military - NOT!

That money is being sponged by the banana-democracy the U.S. put in there while they pump the Iraqi oil fields dry and rob the 'Iraqi people' of their national resources....

[Nbadan]

What was the total amount of money spent on the investigation outside of the commission?

Give me a number.

Who cares? Weren't there outside investigations into every conspiracy theory ever? Weren't millions spent there. None of these investigations have the power of the U.S. govt forcing reluctant conspirators to testify under oath...

[Nbadan]

Well, Iraq certainly auctioned off those contracts to those countries that aren't the US, so one would have to conclude it's the Iraqis.

How much oil was the U.S. getting from Iraq with Saddam?

How much do they control today?

[ChumpDumper]

..and one can see the billions of dollars in oil money at work in Iraq today, building roads, improving security, building a military - NOT!You have a line on all the infrastructure, military and security projects currently in process or being planned?

Give me a link.


That money is being sponged by the banana-democracy the U.S. put in there while they pump the Iraqi oil fields dry and rob the 'Iraqi people' of their national resources....Yeah, that's why they only awarded one contract out of the eight available in the first round of auctions -- they wanted to get that money as soon as possible!

[Nbadan]

You have a line on all the infrastructure, military and security projects currently in process or being planned?

...a fraction of the billions in oil profits the Iraqis should be making..your talking about one of the top three oil reserves in the world...

[Nbadan]

Yeah, that's why they only awarded one contract out of the eight available in the first round of auctions -- they wanted to get that money as soon as possible!

That's just what we know about...

[ChumpDumper]

How much oil was the U.S. getting from Iraq with Saddam?

How much do they control today?You do know oil is a commodity, right? It is traded on a world market. There was no US embargo on the importation of Iraqi oil, ever, and there is no way to direct all that oil to the US.

That said, if you want to fix the amount of Iraqi oil going to the US at some percentage of the total for the sake of argument, it's probably back to the levels it reached before the US invasion in 2003, maybe higher.

I believe the goal of the Iraqi government is to raise production to pre-Iran war levels or higher.