Nash: Suns Better, Deeper Than Last Year

[stretch]

Whatever, who cares? I don't sit and read any of that profile crap anyway. Spurs fan, Mavs fan, whatever. And your point?
It's not on his profile. It's right under his username. Are you telling me you never once looked to see someone's username, and didn't happen to catch a glimpse of what their favorite team is?

[DannyB]

I wouldn't say that was his big breakout year. He had 2 breakout years. His first was in 2003-2004. Then in 2005-2006, the year he left the Suns, everyone realized how great of an all-around talent this guy really is.

Oh, and what's stupid is preferring having high TV ratings over winning championships, and saying that if your team got lower TV ratings, like the Spurs, but also won championships, you would stop being a fan. That's fucking retarded.

Remember this, fuckface?

I never said a single word ever about ratings being important. Never. Not once. Not me. That's not the point. What I obviously meant was if my team was lame to watch like the Spurs, I would probably stop watching basketball.

[monosylab1k]

if my team was lame to watch like the Spurs, I would probably stop watching basketball.
is this the most idiotic thing ever written on SpursTalk? Do we need a poll for this?

[DannyB]

It's not on his profile. It's right under his username. Are you telling me you never once looked to see someone's username, and didn't happen to catch a glimpse of what their favorite team is?

Nope. Didn't bother. Who cares?

[monosylab1k]

i think we do.

[DannyB]

i think we do.

Do you think I care that I had to arbitrarily choose a Del Negro Avatar, or pick a player type? Do you think I chose to have "believe" under my name? I really don't care, but I guess y'all are obsessed with trivialities.

[mardigan]

Whatever, who cares? I don't sit and read any of that profile crap anyway. Spurs fan, Mavs fan, whatever. And your point?
Point being your a dumbfuck. When a Spurs fan says the Suns dont play d, we dont watch the games. Then you call the Spurs boring cheap etc., I suppose you watch all their games right?
Then you claim Joe Johnson and Q left the team, and a much, much more knowledgable poster bitches you, and you have no reply. Your a fucking idiot with nothing to add, so just shut the fuck up.

[DannyB]

Point being your a dumbfuck. When a Spurs fan says the Suns dont play d, we dont watch the games. Then you call the Spurs boring cheap etc., I suppose you watch all their games right?
Then you claim Joe Johnson and Q left the team, and a much, much more knowledgable poster bitches you, and you have no reply. Your a fucking idiot with nothing to add, so just shut the fuck up.

Well fuck me sideways for not being able to post replys to all the no-life fuckers on here at once. I'm at work, and there's one of me and several of you to respond too.

[stretch]

I never said a single word ever about ratings being important. Never. Not once. Not me. That's not the point. What I obviously meant was if my team was lame to watch like the Spurs, I would probably stop watching basketball.
I never said you did. I quoted exactly what you said. Maybe you should stop being so sensitive about the posts, and thing about who I could possibly be referring to, considering you were whining and bitching about how a few of us like to make fun of a certain idiot suns fan who always talks about having great ratings.

And how is it that they are so lame to watch? They score points. They defend. They rebound. Most importantly, they win.

So now are you telling me that winning is lame? Okay, fucking genius, try to be the GM of a team, and make the shittiest fucking team possible. A team that will get no wins, since winning is lame. Then let's all watch as the NBA ratings skyrocket to record levels, since winning is lame.

[stretch]

Nope. Didn't bother. Who cares?
Obviously you care enough, considering you took the time to change yours to say "Phoenix Suns"

[DannyB]

Your revisionist history appears correct, but is not. He didn't demand tons of money. He demended the going rate for his equals. He asked for just over 8 million per season at the start. Sarver refused to go over 8 million, despite it being the going rate. The next offseason, he gave the Suns ups the chance to right their wrongs and offer market value and Sarver still lowballed him despite a player like Larry Hughes being previously signed for roughly 15 million more than JJ was offered. It was only after these refusals to meet market value that JJ decided his best bet for his future was elsewhere.

The funny thing, it was Sarver who expressed openly that if JJ wanted more money that he had the opportunity to earn it in 2004-05. After he did, Sarver dismissed his previous claims of giving market value to JJ.

JJ was a potential All-Star with Phoenix. He was better than a role player. He was their third most important offensive star, but to diminish what he's become in the absense of Nash, D'Antoni and the Suns because he had flashed glimpses of said potential in Phoenix is silly.

I doubt he'd be better statistically right now with the Suns than he is right now with the Hawks. Therefore, he is better off for having left, despite the offensive prowess of Nash and D'Antoni.

He demanded more money than they could afford to pony up. Because of the contracts of Marion, Nash, Amare, and others that were guaranteed contracts. Even now years later, after ditching Kurt Thomas's contract, the Suns are well over the luxury tax threshhold. So it may have been fair market value, but it was more than they could really give him. And I remember the whole thing living here in Phoenix. He got pissy and refused to even talk to anyone from the organization after the Suns didn't extend his contract over the summer.

[DannyB]

Obviously you care enough, considering you took the time to change yours to say "Phoenix Suns"

It was mandatory at sign-up

[stretch]

It was mandatory at sign-up
You could have left it to just say San Antonio Spurs, since no one, especially yourself, doesn't care.

[DannyB]

You could have left it to just say San Antonio Spurs, since no one, especially yourself, doesn't care.

Good suggestion genius. That's probably the one option during the mandatory sign-up process that I actually did care about, for obvious reasons since I despise the Spurs.

[ShoogarBear]

I never said a single word ever about ratings being important. Never. Not once. Not me. That's not the point. What I obviously meant was if my team was lame to watch like the Spurs, I would probably stop watching basketball.You clearly don't watch very much of it as is.

[da_suns_fan__]

Leaving D'Antoni? Or leaving Steve Nash?

Joe Johnson. The guy is a fucking beast. Suns are retarded for letting him go. If they kept him, he may have been that one piece to get them to a title.

Holy shit, excuse me for not explaining myself more thoroughly. I thought it was obvious. What are we talking about here?

When I asked which players "Redeemed" themselves, I was asking which one of these so called "talented" players who couldn't get off D'Antoni's bench later proved he was a legitimate player in this league.

Joe Johnson led the league in minutes in 04-05. Im pretty sure Mike D recognized Joe's talents. Same with Q. Mike D' took Joe from a guy who refused to shoot with Frank Johnson to the player he is today.

Regardless, which players redeemed themselves? There has to be one, right?

[JMarkJohns]

The Joe Johnson/Phoenix Suns timetable...

After averaging 16.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.3 apg in the 2003-04 season, including a 5-game stretch where he averaged over 20 ppg, Johnson asks for a 6 year, 50 million dollar deal, roughly the same as Quentin Richardson and Manu Ginobili.

Robert Sarver decides to offer no more than 45 million over six years, letting negotiations stall simply because he refused to meet market value. He tells JJ to earn his money.

When JJ goes out and bests those previous season's averages (17.1 ppg, 5.1 rpg, and 3.5 apg with immensly better shooting percentages), Sarver withholds his offer until the market dictates the going rate.

With horror Sarver sees inferior players like Larry Hughes getting 5 year, 70 million offers and promtly "ups" his offer to 6 years, 60 million.

Unfortunately, it came after JJ received a 5 year, 70 million offer from Atlanta.

In one last attempt to sign JJ, Sarver, for the third time, low balls JJ with an offer of five years, 60 million.

LINK: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

I mean, how many times would you be insulted with below-market-value offers before you decided you were underappreciated and chose to move on?

JJ gave the Suns every opportunity to sign him to market value, yet Sarver abjectly refused to pay it, not once, not twice, but three times.

[da_suns_fan__]

Ah yes...the "Suns fans only care about ratings" argument.

Here's a little history.

1) Spurs get bad ratings and are labeled as boring
2) Spurs fans say thats only because they're in a small market
3) Da Suns Fan shreds that argument. Small market teams have previously gotten good ratings and large market teams have gotten smaller ratings.
4) Spurs fans counter by saying Suns fans only care about ratings.

Well at least you all bailed on that "small market" excuse.
:lol :lol

[mardigan]

The Joe Johnson/Phoenix Suns timetable...

After averaging 16.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.3 apg in the 2003-04 season, including a 5-game stretch where he averaged over 20 ppg, Johnson asks for a 6 year, 50 million dollar deal, roughly the same as Quentin Richardson and Manu Ginobili.

Robert Sarver decides to offer no more than 45 million over six years, letting negotiations stall simply because he refused to meet market value. He tells JJ to earn his money.

When JJ goes out and best those previous season's averages (17.1 ppg, 5.1 rpg, and 3.5 apg with immensly better shooting percentages), Sarver withholds his offer until the market dictates the going rate.

With horror Sarver sees inferior players like Larry Hughes getting 5 year, 70 million offers and promtly "ups" his offer to 6 years, 60 million.

Unfortunately, it came after JJ received a 5 year, 70 million offer from Atlanta.

In one last attempt to sign JJ, Sarver, for the third time, low balls JJ with an offer of five years, 60 million.

LINK: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

I mean, how many times would you be insulted with below-market-value offers before you decided you were underappreciated and chose to move on?

JJ gave the Suns every opportunity to sign him to market value, yet Sarver abjectly refused to pay it, not once, not twice, but three times.
Danny b, owned again :lol

[mardigan]

Ah yes...the "Suns fans only care about ratings" argument.

Here's a little history.

1) Spurs get bad ratings and are labeled as boring
2) Spurs fans say thats only because they're in a small market
3) Da Suns Fan shreds that argument. Small market teams have previously gotten good ratings and large market teams have gotten smaller ratings.
4) Spurs fans counter by saying Suns fans only care about ratings.

Well at least you all bailed on that "small market" excuse.
:lol :lol
Really though, if ratings are the only negative thing you can add about the Spurs, you dont have much.

[monosylab1k]

Ah yes...the "Suns fans only care about ratings" argument.

Here's a little history.

1) Spurs get bad ratings and are labeled as boring
2) Spurs fans say thats only because they're in a small market
3) Da Suns Fan shreds that argument. Small market teams have previously gotten good ratings and large market teams have gotten smaller ratings.
4) Spurs fans counter by saying Suns fans only care about ratings.

Well at least you all bailed on that "small market" excuse.
:lol :lol
notice the words "win" and "championship" don't appear anywhere in his post.

[da_suns_fan__]

The Joe Johnson/Phoenix Suns timetable...

After averaging 16.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.3 apg in the 2003-04 season, including a 5-game stretch where he averaged over 20 ppg, Johnson asks for a 6 year, 50 million dollar deal, roughly the same as Quentin Richardson and Manu Ginobili.

Robert Sarver decides to offer no more than 45 million over six years, letting negotiations stall simply because he refused to meet market value. He tells JJ to earn his money.

When JJ goes out and best those previous season's averages (17.1 ppg, 5.1 rpg, and 3.5 apg with immensly better shooting percentages), Sarver withholds his offer until the market dictates the going rate.

With horror Sarver sees inferior players like Larry Hughes getting 5 year, 70 million offers and promtly "ups" his offer to 6 years, 60 million.

Unfortunately, it came after JJ received a 5 year, 70 million offer from Atlanta.

In one last attempt to sign JJ, Sarver, for the third time, low balls JJ with an offer of five years, 60 million.

LINK: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

I mean, how many times would you be insulted with below-market-value offers before you decided you were underappreciated and chose to move on?

JJ gave the Suns every opportunity to sign him to market value, yet Sarver abjectly refused to pay it, not once, not twice, but three times.

Regardless, what the hell is stretch talking about.

He claimed that JJ "redeemed" himself.

Redeemed himself after what? Playing the most minutes with D'Antoni?

Mike D KNEW what he had in Joe Johnson....and like I said, he took Joe from a shy player who wouldn't assert himself to a top 30 player in the league.

No one can deny that Mike knows talent when he sees it. You can't fault him for not playing guys who don't even belong in the league.

Fault Sarver, not D'Antoni.

[mardigan]

Regardless, what the hell is stretch talking about.

He claimed that JJ "redeemed" himself.

Redeemed himself after what? Playing the most minutes with D'Antoni?

Mike D KNEW what he had in Joe Johnson....and like I said, he took Joe from a shy player who wouldn't assert himself to a top 30 player in the league.

No one can deny that Mike knows talent when he sees it.
That one was for Danny B, trying his hardest to balance work and getting owned at the same time.

[da_suns_fan__]

That one was for Danny B, trying his hardest to balance work and getting owned at the same time.

No...Stretch brought up Joe Johnson as a response to "which player redeemed himself" question.

I also asked which player did better when leaving Phoenix (which is definately arguable about Joe), but I was asking about the guys who couldn't get minutes with Mike D.

[DannyB]

The Joe Johnson/Phoenix Suns timetable...

After averaging 16.7 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.3 apg in the 2003-04 season, including a 5-game stretch where he averaged over 20 ppg, Johnson asks for a 6 year, 50 million dollar deal, roughly the same as Quentin Richardson and Manu Ginobili.

Robert Sarver decides to offer no more than 45 million over six years, letting negotiations stall simply because he refused to meet market value. He tells JJ to earn his money.

When JJ goes out and bests those previous season's averages (17.1 ppg, 5.1 rpg, and 3.5 apg with immensly better shooting percentages), Sarver withholds his offer until the market dictates the going rate.

With horror Sarver sees inferior players like Larry Hughes getting 5 year, 70 million offers and promtly "ups" his offer to 6 years, 60 million.

Unfortunately, it came after JJ received a 5 year, 70 million offer from Atlanta.

In one last attempt to sign JJ, Sarver, for the third time, low balls JJ with an offer of five years, 60 million.

LINK: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2120105

I mean, how many times would you be insulted with below-market-value offers before you decided you were underappreciated and chose to move on?

JJ gave the Suns every opportunity to sign him to market value, yet Sarver abjectly refused to pay it, not once, not twice, but three times.

And there you have it, except for one thing. I'm no defender of Sarver's moves so far, but he knew at the time that the team was going to be well over the luxury tax threshold within the next few years (due to scheduled salary increases for several players). People always want to call him cheap, and he may be. But what's he supposed to do? Spend money like the Knicks? Nobody wants to pay dollar for dollar luxury tax on contracts worth tens of millions!

[stretch]

That one was for Danny B, trying his hardest to balance work and getting owned at the same time.
I'm wondering when I ever said that JJ "redeemed" himself.

All I ever said was that he was a better player after leaving D'Antoni... oh whoops, I mean after leaving Steve Nash.

[JMarkJohns]

And I remember the whole thing living here in Phoenix. He got pissy and refused to even talk to anyone from the organization after the Suns didn't extend his contract over the summer.


"I would come back and work as hard as I ever have," Johnson said. "If they match, all this stuff is behind me from that minute on. I hope everybody [in Phoenix] puts everything behind them, too."

Yeah, sounds like he hated Pheonix, being a pissy ingrate and all...

[DannyB]

Danny b, owned again :lol

How do you figure dickhole? Because he responded to me? His response was detailed and encyclopedic, but not substantially in disagreement with anything I said. He just thinks Joe got dissed and that's all there was too it, I think ...

[da_suns_fan__]

The REAL Joe Johnson story is a mix between both sides.

Joe wanted a MAX offer. 6/60 million was what the Suns initially offered (which was the number that most were speculating as the season was winding down). But after Ray Allen and Michael Redd got 90 million, the market was set very high.

The bottom line is that Joe definately wanted out. He wanted to move back to the south and be closer to his mother.

I dont believe any of the "wanted to be the man" stuff was true.....but he definately wanted his money and to be closer to home more than he wanted to win.

[stretch]

Ah yes...the "Suns fans only care about ratings" argument.

Here's a little history.

1) Spurs get bad ratings and are labeled as boring
2) Spurs fans say thats only because they're in a small market
3) Da Suns Fan shreds that argument. Small market teams have previously gotten good ratings and large market teams have gotten smaller ratings.
4) Spurs fans counter by saying Suns fans only care about ratings.

Well at least you all bailed on that "small market" excuse.
:lol :lol
Spurs got 4 rings.

Suns got none.

"BORING" Spurs >>>> "EXCITING" Suns.

[da_suns_fan__]

I'm wondering when I ever said that JJ "redeemed" himself.

All I ever said was that he was a better player after leaving D'Antoni... oh whoops, I mean after leaving Steve Nash.

Fair enough, but we were originally talking about D'Antoni and the Suns bench....

If youre going to criticize D'Antoni for not playing his bench, then there has to be at least one guy who proved he was worthy of playing, right?

Which guy? How did everyone get on this Joe Johnson subject?

I want to know who Mike D should have been playing.

Casey Jacobsen? Jake Voskhul? Jackson Vroman? Jalen Rose? Jumain Jones? Pat Burke? Paul Shirley?

Who?

[DannyB]

Yeah, sounds like he hated Pheonix, being a pissy ingrate and all...

Please find me the source of that quote. I remember the entire affair vividly, and I don't believe that's a real quote. I think you actually made it up. After he made up his mind that he was done with the Suns, he wouldn't even return their phone calls in person.

[da_suns_fan__]

Spurs got 4 rings.

Suns got none.

"BORING" Spurs >>>> "EXCITING" Suns.

This is what Im talking about....thank you stretch.

Im not arguing the Spurs haven't won...Im arguing that the Spurs "boring" label and lack of ratings have NOTHING to do with market sizes.

[da_suns_fan__]

JmarksJohn is incorrect.

Sarver didn't "up" his offer from 45 to 60 after he saw what Larry Hughes got.

45 was his offer in 04 (when JJ had one half of a good season on his resume after three years).

60 was his offer in 05. He eventually "upped" his offer to 6 years, 75 million. Hardly a "lowball" offer.

[stretch]

Fair enough, but we were originally talking about D'Antoni and the Suns bench....

If youre going to criticize D'Antoni for not playing his bench, then there has to be at least one guy who proved he was worthy of playing, right?

Which guy? How did everyone get on this Joe Johnson subject?

I want to know who Mike D should have been playing.

Casey Jacobsen? Jake Voskhul? Jackson Vroman? Jalen Rose? Jumain Jones? Pat Burke? Paul Shirley?

Who?

:wtf

Are you an idiot?

I never criticized D'Antoni for not playing his bench either. You really need to read what I post, before posting strange stuff like this.

[stretch]

This is what Im talking about....thank you stretch.

Im not arguing the Spurs haven't won...Im arguing that the Spurs "boring" label and lack of ratings have NOTHING to do with market sizes.
But their playing style is all that matters.

Playing fundamentally sound basketball, with solid defense, rebounding, and smart shooting wins championships.

Playing with terrible fundamentals, throwing up the quickest shot you can get, playing no defense and not rebounding the basketball wins nothing.

[JMarkJohns]

And there you have it, except for one thing. I'm no defender of Sarver's moves so far, but he knew at the time that the team was going to be well over the luxury tax threshold within the next few years (due to scheduled salary increases for several players).

You're so full of crap it's not even funny...

At the time, the Suns weren't even at the luzery threshold. Also, one reason the Suns payroll is so screwed up is be resigning a player they received in the JJ trade (Diaw), and a player to replace JJ's backup PG skills (Banks)

Funny. Had he signed JJ for the six year, 50 million offer JJ originally came in with, then that would be an 8.5 per year average. Throw in a resigned Barbosa at 5-per and you're looking at 13.5 million per year for those two.

OK, instead, they spent 9 per on Diaw, and four per on Banks in addition to the 5 per from Barbosa, so instead of having an All-Star in JJ and a great bench player in Barbosa for 13.5 million per season, they went out and spent 18.5 million on two complimentary players and Barbosa, a star.

Yeah, it looks like they couldn't afford Johnson... :rolleyes

BUT, let's just assume that they resign him to the five year, 70 million that Atlanta offered. OK, so that's 14 per average, plus Barbosa's 5 per and they sit at 19 per, or basically the same amount in a worst case scenerio than they are right now with Diaw, Banks and Barbosa's 18.5 per average.

Again... You have no idea what you're talking about. You're regurgitating the Arizona Republic propaganda, a paper that came to prominence because of Jerry Colangelo's unlimited access. You see, Colangelo was both the Suns owner and a minority owner of the Republic, so the Republic has extreme loyalties to the orginization that made their sports coverage tops in the state.


People always want to call him cheap, and he may be. But what's he supposed to do? Spend money like the Knicks? Nobody wants to pay dollar for dollar luxury tax on contracts worth tens of millions!

I don't expect him to spend money foolishly. I expect an owner to listen to his general manager's when he says that six years, 50 million is worth a player like JJ. Had they done that, they'd bee in a much better situation, both on the court and on the books.

[da_suns_fan__]

But their playing style does.

Playing fundamentally sound basketball, with solid defense, rebounding, and smart shooting wins championships.

Playing with terrible fundamentals, throwing up the quickest shot you can get, playing no defense and not rebounding the basketball wins nothing.

100% agree with the bolded statement. Thank you much. I have set the record straight with yet another Texan.

[stretch]

100% agree with the bolded statement. Thank you much. I have set the record straight with yet another Texan.
What the fuck are you talking about?

[monosylab1k]

no matter how he twists things, DSF still shows how ratings-obsessed he is.

[stretch]

no matter how he twists things, DSF still shows how ratings-obsessed he is.
I don't see how that is even a twist. This is just complete nonsense.

[JMarkJohns]

Please find me the source of that quote. I remember the entire affair vividly, and I don't believe that's a real quote. I think you actually made it up. After he made up his mind that he was done with the Suns, he wouldn't even return their phone calls in person.

I linked it for you. Check my post in the 11th page of this thread. The one that reads "LINK" and then redirects you to a Marc Stein story. If you would have actually read it, down towards the bottom Johnson is directly quoted as saying what I posted.

Yeah... I'm so gooda post that I can manipulate ESPN.com's webpages and content to match my agenda.

OOOOOOORRRRRR...

Maybe I'm someone who bases his opinion upon the facts, and not feelings/emotions.

What? You didn't read that quote in the Arizona Republic or hear it on any of the city stations? Well, I've already explained why you wouldn't have from the Republic, since they never badmouth the Suns organization. As for the latter, perhaps you weren't following the situation as closely as you like you think you were?

[da_suns_fan__]

I don't expect him to spend money foolishly. I expect an owner to listen to his general manager's when he says that six years, 50 million is worth a player like JJ. Had they done that, they'd bee in a much better situation, both on the court and on the books.


Sarver was the first one to admit that not resigning Joe in 04 was mistake. That was obvious.

But Joe definately wanted out in 05...that too was obvious. Not because he wanted to be the fourth wheel, but because he wanted a max offer.

The thing is, with Barbosa and Raja Bell, we don't need Joe Johnson. The Suns have plenty of talent in the backcourt don't they?

PG - All NBA 1st team
SG - All NBA Defense 1st team. Led the league in three pointers.

backup - NBA's sixth man of the year.

Seriously....what would Joe Johnson bring? How much more than we're getting with Grant Hill? And at what price?

Don't give up on Diaw yet.....obvioulsy banks sucks but there's hope for Diaw.

[monosylab1k]

:lmao how bad is that JJ trade looking now? Boris Diaw and the 1st rounder you'll end up getting is gonna suck since Atlanta will be good this year!

[da_suns_fan__]

I linked it for you. Check my post in the 11th page of this thread. The one that reads "LINK" and then redirects you to a Marc Stein story. If you would have actually read it, down towards the bottom Johnson is directly quoted as saying what I posted.

I read it...and i love how your original post is completely disingenuous. You pretend that your "bullets" is a direct quote from your link.

Of course, they weren't.

You left out that part where Stein states that Joe was sick of being "the fourth wheel".

Congratulations on self ownage you idiot. You almost had everyone fooled. :lol :lol :lol

[DannyB]

But their playing style is all that matters.

Playing fundamentally sound basketball, with solid defense, rebounding, and smart shooting wins championships.

Playing with terrible fundamentals, throwing up the quickest shot you can get, playing no defense and not rebounding the basketball wins nothing.

So the Suns have "terrible fundamentals"? That's really your position? Anyone in particular, or the whole team? Nash? Yeah, he's got terrible fundamentals, right? Just because he's not a powerhouse defender in addition to doing everything else perfectly (see "fundamentals"). And what about Marion? No fundamentals, right? That's why he pretty much does everything and is consistently at the top of the league in efficiency. Raja Bell? No fundamentals, huh? He's all flash and no substance huh? He doesn't work his butt off at all the fundamentals because he's just such a naturally gifted athlete, right? That's gotta be the stupidest thing you've said. I'm not even saying the Suns are better than the Spurs in the fundamentals dept., or that the Spurs don't exemplify fundamental skills (I''m not saying they do, either); but to act like the Suns are just a sloppy bunch of undisciplined hot-dogs or something is fucking stupid.

[JMarkJohns]

Please find me the source of that quote. I remember the entire affair vividly, and I don't believe that's a real quote. I think you actually made it up. After he made up his mind that he was done with the Suns, he wouldn't even return their phone calls in person.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7629/jjpart1wi7.jpg

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8349/jjpart2xx0.jpg

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/2700/jjpart3pm7.jpg

[DannyB]

You're so full of crap it's not even funny...

At the time, the Suns weren't even at the luzery threshold. Also, one reason the Suns payroll is so screwed up is be resigning a player they received in the JJ trade (Diaw), and a player to replace JJ's backup PG skills (Banks)

Funny. Had he signed JJ for the six year, 50 million offer JJ originally came in with, then that would be an 8.5 per year average. Throw in a resigned Barbosa at 5-per and you're looking at 13.5 million per year for those two.

OK, instead, they spent 9 per on Diaw, and four per on Banks in addition to the 5 per from Barbosa, so instead of having an All-Star in JJ and a great bench player in Barbosa for 13.5 million per season, they went out and spent 18.5 million on two complimentary players and Barbosa, a star.

Yeah, it looks like they couldn't afford Johnson... :rolleyes

BUT, let's just assume that they resign him to the five year, 70 million that Atlanta offered. OK, so that's 14 per average, plus Barbosa's 5 per and they sit at 19 per, or basically the same amount in a worst case scenerio than they are right now with Diaw, Banks and Barbosa's 18.5 per average.

Again... You have no idea what you're talking about. You're regurgitating the Arizona Republic propaganda, a paper that came to prominence because of Jerry Colangelo's unlimited access. You see, Colangelo was both the Suns owner and a minority owner of the Republic, so the Republic has extreme loyalties to the orginization that made their sports coverage tops in the state.



I don't expect him to spend money foolishly. I expect an owner to listen to his general manager's when he says that six years, 50 million is worth a player like JJ. Had they done that, they'd bee in a much better situation, both on the court and on the books.

Ok, now I see. You've got the inside scoop. It's a conspiracy theory involving the AZ Republic as the propoganda arm of Jerry Colangelo's evil empire. Right. ... and I'm the one full of crap. Yep.

[JMarkJohns]

When one cannot address the issues, change the subject.

You obviously haven't the sense of history that you claim to have.

[DannyB]

When one cannot address the issues, change the subject.

You obviously haven't the sense of history that you claim to have.

Not changing the subject. Just thought it was funny when you started talking about how full of crap I am because I don't buy into you conspiracy theory.

[monosylab1k]

So the Suns have "terrible fundamentals"? That's really your position? Anyone in particular, or the whole team? Nash? Yeah, he's got terrible fundamentals, right? Just because he's not a powerhouse defender in addition to doing everything else perfectly (see "fundamentals"). And what about Marion? No fundamentals, right? That's why he pretty much does everything and is consistently at the top of the league in efficiency. Raja Bell? No fundamentals, huh? He's all flash and no substance huh? He doesn't work his butt off at all the fundamentals because he's just such a naturally gifted athlete, right? That's gotta be the stupidest thing you've said. I'm not even saying the Suns are better than the Spurs in the fundamentals dept., or that the Spurs don't exemplify fundamental skills (I''m not saying they do, either); but to act like the Suns are just a sloppy bunch of undisciplined hot-dogs or something is fucking stupid.
It's pretty telling that the name Amare didn't pop up once when defending the Suns "fundamentals" :lmao

and do you know what "fundamentals" means?

[monosylab1k]

btw Nash is the posterboy for poor fundamentals. He's so skilled that he gets away with it, but his passing style is so nutzo that an entire generation of kids are going to be horrible passers because they all want to copy Nash.

[JMarkJohns]

I'm very interested in having a discussion with someone who can tell me how, exactly, it is that the Suns are a deeper team in 2007-08 than they were in 2006-07, since part of Nash's statement giving rise to this thread mentioned the Suns' improved depth.


I believe that it stems from similar to what you mentioned earlier. That they have more depth with ballhandlers.

OK, so based upon preseason, Nash sees that Banks is making nice strides, that Tucker has potential, and that Hill has fit right in. Despite losing Thomas, Nash sees a more athletic version in Skinner and considers it a wash.

So, he, in what I believe to be a subtle suggestion to D'Antoni, states that this teams depth is better than last season's in an attempt to get D'Antoni to play Banks, Tucker and Skinner more than he played Banks, Jones and Thomas last season.

However, I don't think it was entlrely an attempt at manipulation. based upon preseason, I can see where he thinks...

PG: Nash, Banks
SG: Bell, Barbosa
SF: Hill, Tucker
PF: Marion, Diaw
C: Amare, Skinner

...is better than...

PG: Nash
SG: Bell, Barbosa
SF: Jones
PF: Marion, Diaw
C: Amare, Thomas

Problem is that last season's rotation shouldn't have been just limited to those eight mentioned. Jalen Rose, Jumaine Jones and Banks all should have been utilized more than each was. Rose and Jones especially. Jones is a good enough of a rebounder that he could have played a Tim Thomas-type of PF role for 10 minutes or so a night. Rose was enough of a ballhandler that he should have been used as a backup PG for 15 minutes a night.

Overall I think that while Nash may actually believe this team is deeper than last years, most of it is predicated upon the belief that Hill, Tucker and an improved Banks are better ballhandlers than were an illused Rose, Banks and Jones, but I think much of his statement is based upon an attempt to sway the court of public opinion against a short rotation in an attempt to take some wear and tear off Amare, Hill and himself.

BUMP... Didn't want a serious discussion to get buried under three pages of JJ/Suns minutia...

[SenorSpur]

You're so full of crap it's not even funny...

At the time, the Suns weren't even at the luzery threshold. Also, one reason the Suns payroll is so screwed up is be resigning a player they received in the JJ trade (Diaw), and a player to replace JJ's backup PG skills (Banks)

Funny. Had he signed JJ for the six year, 50 million offer JJ originally came in with, then that would be an 8.5 per year average. Throw in a resigned Barbosa at 5-per and you're looking at 13.5 million per year for those two.

OK, instead, they spent 9 per on Diaw, and four per on Banks in addition to the 5 per from Barbosa, so instead of having an All-Star in JJ and a great bench player in Barbosa for 13.5 million per season, they went out and spent 18.5 million on two complimentary players and Barbosa, a star.

Yeah, it looks like they couldn't afford Johnson... :rolleyes

BUT, let's just assume that they resign him to the five year, 70 million that Atlanta offered. OK, so that's 14 per average, plus Barbosa's 5 per and they sit at 19 per, or basically the same amount in a worst case scenerio than they are right now with Diaw, Banks and Barbosa's 18.5 per average.

Again... You have no idea what you're talking about. You're regurgitating the Arizona Republic propaganda, a paper that came to prominence because of Jerry Colangelo's unlimited access. You see, Colangelo was both the Suns owner and a minority owner of the Republic, so the Republic has extreme loyalties to the orginization that made their sports coverage tops in the state.



I don't expect him to spend money foolishly. I expect an owner to listen to his general manager's when he says that six years, 50 million is worth a player like JJ. Had they done that, they'd bee in a much better situation, both on the court and on the books.

I always thought JJ was a stud. This is a legit 20+ ppg 4 reb 6 ass guy, who is not afraid to take the final shot. I was reminded of this fact when I saw him and his crew take down the Mavs in Hotlanta. Suns made a mistake letting him go.

[stretch]

So the Suns have "terrible fundamentals"? That's really your position? Anyone in particular, or the whole team? Nash? Yeah, he's got terrible fundamentals, right? Just because he's not a powerhouse defender in addition to doing everything else perfectly (see "fundamentals"). And what about Marion? No fundamentals, right? That's why he pretty much does everything and is consistently at the top of the league in efficiency. Raja Bell? No fundamentals, huh? He's all flash and no substance huh? He doesn't work his butt off at all the fundamentals because he's just such a naturally gifted athlete, right? That's gotta be the stupidest thing you've said. I'm not even saying the Suns are better than the Spurs in the fundamentals dept., or that the Spurs don't exemplify fundamental skills (I''m not saying they do, either); but to act like the Suns are just a sloppy bunch of undisciplined hot-dogs or something is fucking stupid.
If jacking up a quick yet terrible shot as quickly as possible is considered fundamentally sound basketball, then the Suns are the most fundamentally sound team in NBA history.

Marion has no moves whatsoever. He relies on his athleticism, and nothing else. He has possibly the worst shooting fundamentals in the league, has no moves to free himself up for a shot, and has terrible rebounding fundamentals. He is so ridiculously athletic though, that he can still somewhat overcome those issues. But if he had the fundamentals that Duncan had, he could EASILY average about 16 boards a game. He consistently jumps either too early or too late, but he jumps so high and fast, that he can save himself regardless. His shot is utterly horrible looking, which explains why he can't make a jumper unless he is absolutely wide open. If J.J. Barea was playing up on him, and he tried to shoot a jumper, Barea could probably block it, because he shoots it so poorly. He's a very poor ball handler too.

Bell can't do crap either. It seems like unless he has a wide open lane, or an open shot, he does nothing to help the offense. He can't drive without losing control of the ball, and his defense is very dirty. Suns fans should NEVER call Bruce Bowen dirty. Bowen does do a few dirty things, but not with malice, the way Bell does. Bowen will never purposely clothesline a guy just because he is getting his ass owned time after time, the way Bell did to Kobe. I don't consider pushing and tripping people to be good defense. Bell can't handle the ball for crap either.

Stoudemire and Diaw aren't bad fundamentally, but aren't impressive in any way either. Stoudemire also relies too much on his incredible athleticism, and might possibly be the worst defensive starting center in the league, which makes no sense considering how athletic he is, but he's not an impressive rebounder, and not a good defender. He also gets owned by strong, physical centers, because he relies so much on athleticism. Diaw to me just seems like he doesn't really do crap. He does some nice things here and there, but for the most part, his contributions are completely empty. From every game I've seen with him, the times that they need him to step up, he doesn't.

IMO, Nash has some nice fundamentals offensively. He has a very nice jumpshot, and his passing is absolutely superb. I really like the way he uses english on the ball to get just the right kinds of spin. As mono said, he does a lot of things that really are not typically considered smart plays, but at the same time, hes so damn good, that he can pull it off, so I'm not going to knock on him for that, because that is what makes him so freaking good, but I personally don't feel that he has bad offensive fundamentals whatsoever. But don't even get me started on defense...

Either way, all teams are going to have players that have great fundamentals, and have poor fundamentals. But I was speaking more in terms of team fundamentals. Trying to get a shot up 8 seconds or earlier in your possession is NOT good team fundamentals. Not crashing the boards and not playing defense is not good team fundamentals. Playing an outside-in style of offense, basing your success on the jumpshot is not good team fundamentals. All those things are complete opposites of what the Spurs, who are a model of fundamentally sound basketball, do.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

If jacking up a quick yet terrible shot as quickly as possible is considered fundamentally sound basketball, then the Suns are the most fundamentally sound team in NBA history.

Marion has no moves whatsoever. He relies on his athleticism, and nothing else. He has possibly the worst shooting fundamentals in the league, has no moves to free himself up for a shot, and has terrible rebounding fundamentals. He is so ridiculously athletic though, that he can still somewhat overcome those issues. But if he had the fundamentals that Duncan had, he could EASILY average about 16 boards a game. He consistently jumps either too early or too late, but he jumps so high and fast, that he can save himself regardless. His shot is utterly horrible looking, which explains why he can't make a jumper unless he is absolutely wide open. If J.J. Barea was playing up on him, and he tried to shoot a jumper, Barea could probably block it, because he shoots it so poorly. He's a very poor ball handler too.

Bell can't do crap either. It seems like unless he has a wide open lane, or an open shot, he does nothing to help the offense. He can't drive without losing control of the ball, and his defense is very dirty. Suns fans should NEVER call Bruce Bowen dirty. Bowen does do a few dirty things, but not with malice, the way Bell does. Bowen will never purposely clothesline a guy just because he is getting his ass owned time after time, the way Bell did to Kobe. I don't consider pushing and tripping people to be good defense. Bell can't handle the ball for crap either.

Stoudemire and Diaw aren't bad fundamentally, but aren't impressive in any way either. Stoudemire also relies too much on his incredible athleticism, and might possibly be the worst defensive starting center in the league, which makes no sense considering how athletic he is, but he's not an impressive rebounder, and not a good defender. He also gets owned by strong, physical centers, because he relies so much on athleticism. Diaw to me just seems like he doesn't really do crap. He does some nice things here and there, but for the most part, his contributions are completely empty. From every game I've seen with him, the times that they need him to step up, he doesn't.

IMO, Nash has some nice fundamentals offensively. He has a very nice jumpshot, and his passing is absolutely superb. I really like the way he uses english on the ball to get just the right kinds of spin. As mono said, he does a lot of things that really are not typically considered smart plays, but at the same time, hes so damn good, that he can pull it off, so I'm not going to knock on him for that, because that is what makes him so freaking good, but I personally don't feel that he has bad offensive fundamentals whatsoever. But don't even get me started on defense...

Either way, all teams are going to have players that have great fundamentals, and have poor fundamentals. But I was speaking more in terms of team fundamentals. Trying to get a shot up 8 seconds or earlier in your possession is NOT good team fundamentals. Not crashing the boards and not playing defense is not good team fundamentals. Playing an outside-in style of offense, basing your success on the jumpshot is not good team fundamentals. All those things are complete opposites of what the Spurs, who are a model of fundamentally sound basketball, do.

Phoenix isn't Golden State. Most of our shots are "good" shots, hence why we always shoot a very high percentage each season. Just because it's quick doesn't mean that it isn't fundamentally sound. In fact an offense based on free flowing offense and ball movement is what basketball originated as, and how it was espoused by John Wooden.

Shawn relies on his athleticism alot, but so do many players. Just because he doesn't have soft hands doesn't mean he's a bad player. He's a great defender, and his absolutely phenomenal hustle.

Raja is a very good man on defender. Just because he doesn't have the speed or the hands to be a successful slasher doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with his game, or that it's somehow fundamentally unsound. He plays with a great intensity, has a very good shot, and knows how to position himself on defense and on offense.

And there's no way STAT's the worst defensive starting center in the league. Eddy Curry's fat ass says hello. And Amare hardly gets "owned" by the strong physical guys. If anything the bigger guys are easier for him to get his shot off and blow right by. He struggles with really athletic players who can stay in front of him.

Diaw has very good fundamentals. He has a decent jump shot, good post moves, gets position, sees the floor well, and makes the extra pass. He's incredibly versatile, but I agree, he needs to work on his attitude and intensity.

The problem with Nash's defense is that he just doesn't have the speed or athleticism to keep up with alot of the really fast guards. He tries hard and he's in good position (hence the ridiculous amount of charges taken), but he can't stay in front of alot of point guards.

[monosylab1k]

In fact an offense based on free flowing offense and ball movement is what basketball originated as, and how it was espoused by John Wooden.
Wooden also espoused set shots and peach baskets.

[stretch]

Phoenix isn't Golden State. Most of our shots are "good" shots, hence why we always shoot a very high percentage each season. Just because it's quick doesn't mean that it isn't fundamentally sound. In fact an offense based on free flowing offense and ball movement is what basketball originated as, and how it was espoused by John Wooden.

No, Phoenix isn't quite as bad as Golden State, but more often than not, they shoot a quick jumper, instead of going for the higher percentage shot in the paint, which is not smart basketball. A team that bases their offense off the jumpshot NEVER wins a title. Never has worked, and never will, especially in this era.


Shawn relies on his athleticism alot, but so do many players. Just because he doesn't have soft hands doesn't mean he's a bad player. He's a great defender, and his absolutely phenomenal hustle.

I never said he's a bad player. I simply said he has piss poor fundamentals.


Raja is a very good man on defender. Just because he doesn't have the speed or the hands to be a successful slasher doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with his game, or that it's somehow fundamentally unsound. He plays with a great intensity, has a very good shot, and knows how to position himself on defense and on offense.

Again, I never said Raja Bell is not a good player. I said that he doesn't have very good basketball fundamentals. He is not a smart offensive player, and his defense is based too much on trying to intimidate the opponent with cheap shots and dirty fouls, instead of just staying in front of his man.


And there's no way STAT's the worst defensive starting center in the league. Eddy Curry's fat ass says hello. And Amare hardly gets "owned" by the strong physical guys.

I never said he is the worst. I said he is one of the worst. And I will take Curry's defense any day, because although he is lazy, he is strong, tall, and physical. Stoudemire is not particularly strong, is short for a center, and is not a physical defender at all. Oh yea, and he is equally as lazy.


If anything the bigger guys are easier for him to get his shot off and blow right by. He struggles with really athletic players who can stay in front of him.

Andrew Bynum and Kwame Brown says hi.


Diaw has very good fundamentals. He has a decent jump shot, good post moves, gets position, sees the floor well, and makes the extra pass. He's incredibly versatile, but I agree, he needs to work on his attitude and intensity.

The problem with Nash's defense is that he just doesn't have the speed or athleticism to keep up with alot of the really fast guards. He tries hard and he's in good position (hence the ridiculous amount of charges taken), but he can't stay in front of alot of point guards.

He also never gets low, has poor lateral footwork and movement, and is lazy as hell.

[FromWayDowntown]

BUMP... Didn't want a serious discussion to get buried under three pages of JJ/Suns minutia...

I started to respond to this last night, but my internet crashed in the middle of my composition and I didn't really feel like starting over again. I'll try to find some time today to respond to your post, JMark. I appreciate your willingness to engage me in discussion rather than a back-and-forth filled with name-calling.

[RonMexico]

I started to respond to this last night, but my internet crashed in the middle of my composition and I didn't really feel like starting over again. I'll try to find some time today to respond to your post, JMark. I appreciate your willingness to engage me in discussion rather than a back-and-forth filled with name-calling.

shut up, Bavetta... bet I could train a dog to beat you in a race

[samikeyp]

Wooden also espoused set shots and peach baskets.

Dude...you are so way off base its comical.

Just because he doesn't coach anymore or is not on SportsCenter, doesn't mean he was not a good coach.

[samikeyp]

I started to respond to this last night, but my internet crashed in the middle of my composition and I didn't really feel like starting over again. I'll try to find some time today to respond to your post, JMark. I appreciate your willingness to engage me in discussion rather than a back-and-forth filled with name-calling.

*cough*cough*toomuchporn*cough.

:lol

[da_suns_fan__]

I started to respond to this last night, but my internet crashed in the middle of my composition and I didn't really feel like starting over again. I'll try to find some time today to respond to your post, JMark. I appreciate your willingness to engage me in discussion rather than a back-and-forth filled with name-calling.

While your at it, why don't you figure out which players who were banished to the end of D'Antoni's bench ever had a chance in this league.

[monosylab1k]

Dude...you are so way off base its comical.
and there you go...you got exactly what i was going for yet still decided to take it seriously.

[samikeyp]

and there you go...you got exactly what i was going for yet still decided to take it seriously.

You got me. :toast.

One of the problems with the written word, you can't always tell the intent of the writer.

Well played. :tu

[DannyB]

It's pretty telling that the name Amare didn't pop up once when defending the Suns "fundamentals" :lmao

and do you know what "fundamentals" means?

Of course I understand what "fundamentals" means. That's why I first mentioned Nash. He's won 2 MVP awards because voters recognized his mastery of the fundamentals of the game. That's why he won the All-Star weekend Skills Challenge, for example. Believe it or not, San Antonio doesn't have a monopoly on the word.

[Johnny RIngo]

But their playing style is all that matters.

Playing fundamentally sound basketball, with solid defense, rebounding, and smart shooting wins championships.

Playing with terrible fundamentals, throwing up the quickest shot you can get, playing no defense and not rebounding the basketball wins nothing.


Yup.

Stats don't lie. The Suns are a gimmick:

Defense wins championships:

Rank in defensive EFG% of every NBA champion since the ABA/NBA merger in 76-77:

06-07: San Antonio 2nd
05-06: Miami 10th
04-05: San Antonio 1st
03-04: Detroit 2nd
02-03: San Antonio 2nd
01-02: LA Lakers 2nd
00-01: LA Lakers 13th
99-00: LA Lakers 1st
98-99: San Antonio 1st
97-98: Chicago 5th
96-97: Chicago 3rd
95-96: Chicago 6th
94-95: Houston 7th
93-94: Houston 3rd
92-93: Chicago 15th
91-92: Chicago 9th
90-91: Chicago 13th
89-90: Detroit 1st
88-89: Detroit 2nd
87-88: LA Lakers 9th
86-87: LA Lakers 6th
85-86: Boston 1st
84-85: LA Lakers 5th
83-84: Boston 2nd
82-83: Philadelphia 4th
81-82: LA Lakers 10th
80-81: Boston 3rd
79-80: LA Lakers 7th
78-79: Seattle 1st
77-78: Washington 10th
76-77: Portland 7th

Average Rank: 5.4

Phoenix ranked 12th last year in EFG%. So in the last 30 years, only three teams have finished the year with a worse EFG% and won the title. Twice it was the Bulls during their first 3-peat and the 00-01 Lakers who steamrolled through the Playoffs, losing only one game. The S0ns don't have a dominant guard like MJ/Kobe or a HOF big like Shaq to get away with a mediocre defense. Nor, do they have a 9 time champ like Phil Jackson coaching them. Considering how badly the Lakers frontcourt dominated the S0ns the other day, I'd say their chances aren't looking very good. Making some of the worst trades of all time doesn't help matters either. Giving away picks to trade away KThomas or losing JJ is going to hurt them in the long run.


Nash doesn't have to apologize for anything.He's what the MVP award is all about.

Nash winning the MVP award was a joke. Winning it a second time cemented him as the most overrated player in NBA history. Thanks to Steve Trash the MVP award is forever tainted with his mediocrity. The sports journalists(most of whom are Caucasian) obviously selected him based on skin color and not on playing ability. The only way that Canadian piece of scum can redeem himself is if he gives the MVPs back to their rightful owners(Shaq, Kobe/Lebron).


He never gives up and inspires other to play better.

Nash defines the word gimmick. The Mavs got better after he left. Dirk got better after he left. Joe Johnson got better after he left the S0ns. If anything, Steve Nash holds back players from realizing their true potential while also holding back teams from being true contenders. Players like Thomas, Payton, Stockton, and Kidd fit your definition better than Nash ever could. At least they led their respective teams to the Finals instead of whining/flopping their way to an early exit like Nash.

[DannyB]

Yup.

Stats don't lie. The Suns are a gimmick:

Defense wins championships:

Rank in defensive EFG% of every NBA champion since the ABA/NBA merger in 76-77:

06-07: San Antonio 2nd
05-06: Miami 10th
04-05: San Antonio 1st
03-04: Detroit 2nd
02-03: San Antonio 2nd
01-02: LA Lakers 2nd
00-01: LA Lakers 13th
99-00: LA Lakers 1st
98-99: San Antonio 1st
97-98: Chicago 5th
96-97: Chicago 3rd
95-96: Chicago 6th
94-95: Houston 7th
93-94: Houston 3rd
92-93: Chicago 15th
91-92: Chicago 9th
90-91: Chicago 13th
89-90: Detroit 1st
88-89: Detroit 2nd
87-88: LA Lakers 9th
86-87: LA Lakers 6th
85-86: Boston 1st
84-85: LA Lakers 5th
83-84: Boston 2nd
82-83: Philadelphia 4th
81-82: LA Lakers 10th
80-81: Boston 3rd
79-80: LA Lakers 7th
78-79: Seattle 1st
77-78: Washington 10th
76-77: Portland 7th

Average Rank: 5.4

Phoenix ranked 12th last year in EFG%. So in the last 30 years, only three teams have finished the year with a worse EFG% and won the title. Twice it was the Bulls during their first 3-peat and the 00-01 Lakers who steamrolled through the Playoffs, losing only one game. The S0ns don't have a dominant guard like MJ/Kobe or a HOF big like Shaq to get away with a mediocre defense. Nor, do they have a 9 time champ like Phil Jackson coaching them. Considering how badly the Lakers frontcourt dominated the S0ns the other day, I'd say their chances aren't looking very good. Making some of the worst trades of all time doesn't help matters either. Giving away picks to trade away KThomas or losing JJ is going to hurt them in the long run.



Nash winning the MVP award was a joke. Winning it a second time cemented him as the most overrated player in NBA history. Thanks to Steve Trash the MVP award is forever tainted with his mediocrity. The sports journalists(most of whom are Caucasian) obviously selected him based on skin color and not on playing ability. The only way that Canadian piece of scum can redeem himself is if he gives the MVPs back to their rightful owners(Shaq, Kobe/Lebron).



Nash defines the word gimmick. The Mavs got better after he left. Dirk got better after he left. Joe Johnson got better after he left the S0ns. If anything, Steve Nash holds back players from realizing their true potential while also holding back teams from being true contenders. Players like Thomas, Payton, Stockton, and Kidd fit your definition better than Nash ever could. At least they led their respective teams to the Finals instead of whining/flopping their way to an early exit like Nash.

You are a fucking jackass. Just thought I would point it out to you. Oh, and by the way, finishing 12th in EFG is pretty damn good for a team that DOMINATED EVERY OFFENSIVE CATEGORY.

[stretch]

Oh, and by the way, finishing 12th in EFG is pretty damn good for a team that DOMINATED EVERY OFFENSIVE CATEGORY.

Thats great. Unfortunately they still didn't and don't play enough defense or rebound the ball well enough to win.


You are a fucking jackass. Just thought I would point it out to you.

lol, self-ownage

[Johnny RIngo]

You are a fucking jackass. Just thought I would point it out to you. Oh, and by the way, finishing 12th in EFG is pretty damn good for a team that DOMINATED EVERY OFFENSIVE CATEGORY.

Thank you for confirming that the S0ns are just a modern version of the '82 Nuggets.

12th means that the Suns defense is more comparable to teams like the Nets and Raptors than to the likes of the Spurs, Pistons, Mavs, Cavs, Bulls, etc. Pretty obvious why Nash's S0ns never have and never will reach the Finals when you consider this fact.

[SpursIndonesia]

He demanded more money than they could afford to pony up. Because of the contracts of Marion, Nash, Amare, and others that were guaranteed contracts. Even now years later, after ditching Kurt Thomas's contract, the Suns are well over the luxury tax threshhold. So it may have been fair market value, but it was more than they could really give him. And I remember the whole thing living here in Phoenix. He got pissy and refused to even talk to anyone from the organization after the Suns didn't extend his contract over the summer.

Exactly my point. If your team was willing to pony up max dollar , franchise player tipe of money, for a flawed player like Marion, then why went cheap with a superstar type of player in Johnson -albeit a minor superstar one ?

Why didn't your team make the right call back then, ship the overpaid Marion and pay 50 mil US$ for Johnson's extension, like what JMJ has suggested ? Is that a stupidity that might cost your team championship or what ? Can you imagine the SPurs went cheap with Manu in 2004, would the Spurs have been able to get their 2005 championship without Manu ?

[DannyB]

Exactly my point. If your team was willing to pony up max dollar , franchise player tipe of money, for a flawed player like Marion, then why went cheap with a superstar type of player in Johnson -albeit a minor superstar one ?

Why didn't your team make the right call back then, ship the overpaid Marion and pay 50 mil US$ for Johnson's extension, like what JMJ has suggested ? Is that a stupidity that might cost your team championship or what ? Can you imagine the SPurs went cheap with Manu in 2004, would the Spurs have been able to get their 2005 championship without Manu ?

A "flawed player like Marion"? Are you serious? WTF man? What does a guy have to do to be perfect in your book? The dude is a total stat monster, 2nd only to Garnett. Every year. Every player is "flawed" in some way. Nobody is perfect. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Even your beloved Spurs players. Period. Don't be an idiot and trash on Marion because he's not God.

[SpursIndonesia]

Marion's a great garbage play/basket player, but not that great to command the kinda salary that he got right now, especially when you use it as the excuse of why your team not resigning Joe Johnson in the summer of 2004. Is he the type of superstar who can create his own shot ? Play clutchfully in the dying minutes ? That's the kinda demands that a max player should provide symmetricly to the salary that he commands.

Dennis Rodman was a flawed player, does that make him any less of a great defender ? Up to a point, Dirk Nowitzki is rather flawed as a 7 footer jumpshooting big, does that make him less than worthy as an MVP ? A flaw is a flaw, shouldn't be taken out of context as an effort of mockering or belittling any player, when the fact is THERE.

[SpursIndonesia]

I might not know all the nuances of the Suns team, but i think i'm not that idiot to understand what kinda silly decision of not giving that 50 mil US$ extension for JJ in that fateful summer 2004, and what kinda impact it might have over your team championship aspiration in the last 2 seasons & this one. I engage in the discussion in the polite manner of showing my opinion in my OWN TEAM forum, who the hell are you policing this forum like it belongs to your a$$ ??

[DannyB]

Ok. I see where you're coming from. It's about the money. I agree that he's overpaid, but not by a heck of a lot. Marion is a great player, one of the best in the league. That stuff about how he can't create his own shot ... how would anyone really know? He rarely has to, because he's got Nash feeding him the ball. I've seen him dribble, make a move, and get by a defender for a shot. The thing is, in the Suns system, dribbling it around and trying to take a defender one-on-one is discouraged.

[monosylab1k]

Of course I understand what "fundamentals" means. That's why I first mentioned Nash. He's won 2 MVP awards because voters recognized his mastery of the fundamentals of the game. That's why he won the All-Star weekend Skills Challenge, for example. Believe it or not, San Antonio doesn't have a monopoly on the word.
there's a difference between skills and fundamentals. Plaxico Burress has skills. Fundamentals? Not so much.

Steve Nash is incredibly skilled but the way he passes the ball breaks alot of the "fundamentals".

[Findog]

Thank you for confirming that the S0ns are just a modern version of the '82 Nuggets.

12th means that the Suns defense is more comparable to teams like the Nets and Raptors than to the likes of the Spurs, Pistons, Mavs, Cavs, Bulls, etc. Pretty obvious why Nash's S0ns never have and never will reach the Finals when you consider this fact.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/1891187807_26dd1afc2e_o.jpg

"Ooh, I'm sorry Earl Watson, am I in your way? Don't mind me, it's not like I was trying to get set defensively or properly clog the lane. Can I get you some coffee or a soft drink, anything to make you more comfortable? If there's anything you need, just let me know."

[Reggie Miller]

Ok. I see where you're coming from. It's about the money. I agree that he's overpaid, but not by a heck of a lot. Marion is a great player, one of the best in the league. That stuff about how he can't create his own shot ... how would anyone really know? He rarely has to, because he's got Nash feeding him the ball. I've seen him dribble, make a move, and get by a defender for a shot. The thing is, in the Suns system, dribbling it around and trying to take a defender one-on-one is discouraged.

In a league with a salary cap, it's always about the money, which is where the Suns went wrong. The Suns have too much money tied up in the wrong people. Marion is grossly overpaid. He may not even be the third option on the team by the time his contract expires.

Marion is not among the best players in the league because he cannot create his own offense. How do I know? After all these years, I don't think he's just holding back or playing within the system. Most teams have at least two players capable of doing that, so you could even argue he isn't among the top 50 players in the league. I'm not saying he's a complete scrub, becuase he isn't. However, you are seriously deluded if you really think he is one of the best players in the league, or even the WC. Marion's entire game is athleticism, and when it is gone, he has no future in the league.

[DannyB]

In a league with a salary cap, it's always about the money, which is where the Suns went wrong. The Suns have too much money tied up in the wrong people. Marion is grossly overpaid. He may not even be the third option on the team by the time his contract expires.

Marion is not among the best players in the league because he cannot create his own offense. How do I know? After all these years, I don't think he's just holding back or playing within the system. Most teams have at least two players capable of doing that, so you could even argue he isn't among the top 50 players in the league. I'm not saying he's a complete scrub, becuase he isn't. However, you are seriously deluded if you really think he is one of the best players in the league, or even the WC. Marion's entire game is athleticism, and when it is gone, he has no future in the league.

You should try reading your posts out loud before you click submit. It might save you from sounding like an idiot. I've got to ask you, how stupid does it sound to say a guy is offensively challenged when he has averaged anywhere from 17 to 20+ points per game every year? And his elite status in the league isn't predicated on his offense anyway. It's everything else he does: the 2.7 SPG and 1.7 BPG averages, the hustle, the durability, his free throw shooting, the lock-down defense, the consistency every single night. He has no future in the league? Shit, man. He's already got 9 awesome years and he's not even 30. You're a dumbass.

[vicphoenix]

Yup.

Stats don't lie. The Suns are a gimmick:

Defense wins championships:

Rank in defensive EFG% of every NBA champion since the ABA/NBA merger in 76-77:

06-07: San Antonio 2nd
05-06: Miami 10th
04-05: San Antonio 1st
03-04: Detroit 2nd
02-03: San Antonio 2nd
01-02: LA Lakers 2nd
00-01: LA Lakers 13th
99-00: LA Lakers 1st
98-99: San Antonio 1st
97-98: Chicago 5th
96-97: Chicago 3rd
95-96: Chicago 6th
94-95: Houston 7th
93-94: Houston 3rd
92-93: Chicago 15th
91-92: Chicago 9th
90-91: Chicago 13th
89-90: Detroit 1st
88-89: Detroit 2nd
87-88: LA Lakers 9th
86-87: LA Lakers 6th
85-86: Boston 1st
84-85: LA Lakers 5th
83-84: Boston 2nd
82-83: Philadelphia 4th
81-82: LA Lakers 10th
80-81: Boston 3rd
79-80: LA Lakers 7th
78-79: Seattle 1st
77-78: Washington 10th
76-77: Portland 7th

Average Rank: 5.4

Phoenix ranked 12th last year in EFG%. So in the last 30 years, only three teams have finished the year with a worse EFG% and won the title. Twice it was the Bulls during their first 3-peat and the 00-01 Lakers who steamrolled through the Playoffs, losing only one game. The S0ns don't have a dominant guard like MJ/Kobe or a HOF big like Shaq to get away with a mediocre defense. Nor, do they have a 9 time champ like Phil Jackson coaching them. Considering how badly the Lakers frontcourt dominated the S0ns the other day, I'd say their chances aren't looking very good. Making some of the worst trades of all time doesn't help matters either. Giving away picks to trade away KThomas or losing JJ is going to hurt them in the long run.



Nash winning the MVP award was a joke. Winning it a second time cemented him as the most overrated player in NBA history. Thanks to Steve Trash the MVP award is forever tainted with his mediocrity. The sports journalists(most of whom are Caucasian) obviously selected him based on skin color and not on playing ability. The only way that Canadian piece of scum can redeem himself is if he gives the MVPs back to their rightful owners(Shaq, Kobe/Lebron).



Nash defines the word gimmick. The Mavs got better after he left. Dirk got better after he left. Joe Johnson got better after he left the S0ns. If anything, Steve Nash holds back players from realizing their true potential while also holding back teams from being true contenders. Players like Thomas, Payton, Stockton, and Kidd fit your definition better than Nash ever could. At least they led their respective teams to the Finals instead of whining/flopping their way to an early exit like Nash.


Could you just stop with the Nash hate. We all know you don't like him and that's your perogative, but we don't have to keep hearing about it. The majority of your posts talk about how crappy he is.

[stretch]

You should try reading your posts out loud before you click submit. It might save you from sounding like an idiot. I've got to ask you, how stupid does it sound to say a guy is offensively challenged when he has averaged anywhere from 17 to 20+ points per game every year?

About 17 to 20+ of them coming from alley-oops, fast-break dunks, and kick outs for wide open jumpers.


And his elite status in the league isn't predicated on his offense anyway. It's everything else he does: the 2.7 SPG and 1.7 BPG averages, the hustle, the durability, his free throw shooting, the lock-down defense, the consistency every single night. He has no future in the league? Shit, man. He's already got 9 awesome years and he's not even 30. You're a dumbass.

Lock-down defense? I don't consider him a lock-down defender by any means... although he is quite good. But those other little things, yes, he does quite well. Unfortunately, those little things don't transform you into an elite player. The thing that separates the good players from the great players is their ability to create offensively. He cannot create offensively at all. Even J.J. Barea is better at creating his own shot and for others. I'm sorry, but if you can't create for yourself, I don't see how you can be considered an elite player. He is a perfect role player, a great #2 or #3 guy, but will never be a #1. He is like Scottie Pippen, without the offensive creating ability.

[DannyB]

there's a difference between skills and fundamentals. Plaxico Burress has skills. Fundamentals? Not so much.

Steve Nash is incredibly skilled but the way he passes the ball breaks alot of the "fundamentals".

That's a funny way to interpret the word. How about Nash's fundamentally perfect jump shot? How about his fundamentals shooting free throws? How about his fundamental ball-handling skills, to go along with his freakish (and often, but not always, unorthodox) passing skills. If Nash somehow "breaks" fundamentals with his passing, it ain't because he can't make fundamentally sound passes. It's cause he's so good that he's above it. The same way people didn't rip too much on Jordan for making passes while in the air.

[DannyB]

About 17 to 20+ of them coming from alley-oops, fast-break dunks, and kick outs for wide open jumpers.



Lock-down defense? I don't consider him a lock-down defender by any means... although he is quite good. But those other little things, yes, he does quite well. Unfortunately, those little things don't transform you into an elite player. The thing that separates the good players from the great players is their ability to create offensively. He cannot create offensively at all. Even J.J. Barea is better at creating his own shot and for others. I'm sorry, but if you can't create for yourself, I don't see how you can be considered an elite player. He is a perfect role player, a great #2 or #3 guy, but will never be a #1. He is like Scottie Pippen, without the offensive creating ability.

I don't buy the argument that he can't get a shot for himself or others. I've seen him do it. Many times in over nine years. He doesn't do it often because he doesn't have to, not because he can't. I mean, what's the guy supposed to do? Take a set-up assist pass from Nash and dribble it around a bit first? Your argument is pretty weak.

[JMarkJohns]

Yeah... Marion has never averaged 2.7 steals per game. His highest in a season is 2.3, but his career average is under 2 per game.

Also, I'd have to agree with the sentiment behind stretch's synopsis of Marion's offensive prowess. He doesn't create offense for himself. That's the very definition of a limited offensive game. What's more is his shot is wildly inconsistant, so while his percentages are above average, when he winds up to shoot, he's just as likely to miss the rim entirely as he is to make the basket.

I love Marion and think that several Spurs fans on this site diminish him because of his playoff failings vs. the Spurs. I don't think that's fair. Still, Marion is limited on offense, a bit overrated as a lockdown defender and is therefore overpaid by several million a year. He's worth roughly 12 million or so per, not the 15-per this contract has paid him and certainly not worth the 20 per he's looking for in an extension.

Marion's value comes in his versatility, both to defend multiple positions and do many things on offense without plays being run for him. I love him for that. However, with very little ability to control a game beyond rebounding, he doesn't deserve the money he makes.

Now, I'm not blaming the Suns for signing him to this deal when they did. At the time he had yet to plateau, as he has recently, and he showed a lot of promise in the offensive department. However, that never fully developed and now he's a dependant. He entirely relies on fast break opportunities, easy lobs/putbacks and open perimeter jumpers, all of which are created by someone other than him.

[DannyB]

Yeah... Marion has never averaged 2.7 steals per game. His highest in a season is 2.3, but his career average is under 2 per game.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shawn_marion/career_stats.html

2.7 steals per game in 2007-2008 so far. 2.3 previous season high. You are correct.

[Reggie Miller]

You should try reading your posts out loud before you click submit. It might save you from sounding like an idiot. I've got to ask you, how stupid does it sound to say a guy is offensively challenged when he has averaged anywhere from 17 to 20+ points per game every year? And his elite status in the league isn't predicated on his offense anyway. It's everything else he does: the 2.7 SPG and 1.7 BPG averages, the hustle, the durability, his free throw shooting, the lock-down defense, the consistency every single night. He has no future in the league? Shit, man. He's already got 9 awesome years and he's not even 30. You're a dumbass.

You are in need of a remedial reading course. You seem to confuse past, present, and future tense. Here's a pointer: try focusing on key words. For example, a phrase beginning with the indicator "when" (as in "when X, then Y") generally indicates a future conditional event. In this case, the condition was aging, which is inevitable.

In general, it is better to debate what someone actually said, instead of creating a straw man. For example, where did I refer to him as "offensively challenged?" I'll give you a pass on that one, since I do believe he is in fact offensively challenged.

I'm no longer sure if we are discussing the same player. It's Shawn Marion, right? How can someone be the third option on their own team, and be an "elite" player? Similarly, when I think of consistency, I don't usually envision a player who routinely disappears in critical playoff games. The criteria you have given for an "elite" player is better used to describe the distinction between starters and role players. I'll grant you he is talented enough to start for just about any NBA team.

[DannyB]

Marion is not among the best players in the league because he cannot create his own offense.

You want to play semantic games? I think the above quote from you is pretty fairly encapsulated by my more concise use of "offensively challenged." But if you want to be a stickler, that's your prerogative. I was pleasantly suprised that you didn't quote me Hume or Thales, however. Kudos for that.

[DannyB]

How can someone be the third option on their own team, and be an "elite" player? Similarly, when I think of consistency, I don't usually envision a player who routinely disappears in critical playoff games.

What playoff games are you talking about? The guy averaged 17.1 ppg and 10.4 rpg during last year's playoffs. 16.9 & 10.4 the year before. 20.4 and 11.7 the year before that. What the fuck are you talking about?

[monosylab1k]

What playoff games are you talking about? The guy averaged 17.1 ppg and 10.4 rpg during last year's playoffs. 16.9 & 10.4 the year before. 20.4 and 11.7 the year before that. What the fuck are you talking about?
now you're gonna deny that Shawn Marion doesn't regularly tank in playoff games? I doubt DSF would even deny that.

[DannyB]

Reggie- Another question: is reigning MVP Dirk Nowitzki not an elite player because he chokes in the playoffs?

[Reggie Miller]

You want to play semantic games? I think the above quote from you is pretty fairly encapsulated by my more concise use of "offensively challenged." But if you want to be a stickler, that's your prerogative. I was pleasantly suprised that you didn't quote me Hume or Thales, however. Kudos for that.

Typical Suns troll. Shift the argument. Call it whatever you want. When someone distorts what I have said to justify name-calling, I will respond most of the time.

"Offensively challenged" suggests someone like Rodman, who was almost afraid to even do a layup near the end. I thought that was a bit strong to describe Marion. Clearly my mistake was giving the guy any credit at all...

By the way, it would be somewhat anachronistic to quote Thales in an Aristotelian syllogism. Nice try, though.

[monosylab1k]

Reggie- Another question: is reigning MVP Dirk Nowitzki not an elite player because he chokes in the playoffs?
he's gotten farther than anybody on the Suns. You ought to remember the chokejob night when he dropped 50 on Phoenix.

[stretch]

I don't buy the argument that he can't get a shot for himself or others. I've seen him do it. Many times in over nine years. He doesn't do it often because he doesn't have to, not because he can't. I mean, what's the guy supposed to do? Take a set-up assist pass from Nash and dribble it around a bit first? Your argument is pretty weak.
No one ever said that. But when Nash is out of the game, he is pretty much unable to score, unless he gets a rebound and put-back or something. He almost looks lost at times.

[stretch]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shawn_marion/career_stats.html

2.7 steals per game in 2007-2008 so far. 2.3 previous season high. You are correct.
Quit pulling stats. You fucking suck at it.

And how the fuck can you suck at pulling stats??? You must be the most incompetent moron alive.

[Reggie Miller]

Reggie- Another question: is reigning MVP Dirk Nowitzki not an elite player because he chokes in the playoffs?

Dirk is a big man who is neither a low post scorer nor a dominant interior defender. I would argue that he isn't a "choker," becuase people have expected him to miraculously become something he isn't the last two seasons. I would say that he is beginning to earn the "inconsistent" label.

I have been here over two years, and I believe I have only used the word "choke" once in all of that time: describing the Spurs' 2004 playoff exit.

This isn't semantics. Stop putting words in my mouth. "Inconsistent" is a value neutral assessment of someone's play. "Choker" is a value judgment. You won't see me use the word "choke" very often, if at all.

[DannyB]

By the way, it would be somewhat anachronistic to quote Thales in an Aristotelian syllogism. Nice try, though.

Holy fucking shit, man. You really are a total douche! I just randomly picked Hume and Thales out of the air, and you tried to impose relevance upon it. Fuck, man. It could have just as well been Anaxagoras and Diogenes or something.

[monosylab1k]

Holy fucking shit, man. You really are a total douche! I just randomly picked Hume and Thales out of the air, and you tried to impose relevance upon it. Fuck, man. It could have just as well been Anaxagoras and Diogenes or something.
or Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. stop dropping names you think make you look smart, douche.

[monosylab1k]

i can almost see DannyB looking up Kerouac on Wikipedia at this very moment to find a way to wedge his name in there too.

[DannyB]

Dirk is a big man who is neither a low post scorer nor a dominant interior defender. I would argue that he isn't a "choker," becuase people have expected him to miraculously become something he isn't the last two seasons. I would say that he is beginning to earn the "inconsistent" label.

I have been here over two years, and I believe I have only used the word "choke" once in all of that time: describing the Spurs' 2004 playoff exit.

This isn't semantics. Stop putting words in my mouth. "Inconsistent" is a value neutral assessment of someone's play. "Choker" is a value judgment. You won't see me use the word "choke" very often, if at all.

You didn't answer the question. At all. Nice dancing, though. Is he elite, or not?

I also think its really funny that according to you, Marion's a playoff choker but Dirk isn't. Fuck. Wow. Dirk performed the single greatest choke act in the most embarassing upset in NBA history just last year, and he's still not a choker in your book. Can you even name me a specific game in which Marion choked?

[DannyB]

or Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. stop dropping names you think make you look smart, douche.

You dumbass, that's what I was making fun of him for. He's always name-dropping and trying to smuggle philosophy 101 into posts.

[Johnny RIngo]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/1891187807_26dd1afc2e_o.jpg

"Ooh, I'm sorry Earl Watson, am I in your way? Don't mind me, it's not like I was trying to get set defensively or properly clog the lane. Can I get you some coffee or a soft drink, anything to make you more comfortable? If there's anything you need, just let me know."

lmao

That pic's hilarious!

[monosylab1k]

You dumbass, that's what I was making fun of him for. He's always name-dropping and trying to smuggle philosophy 101 into posts.
Nice try but seeing your love of revisionist history, I can understand why you'd try this defense. Douche.

[monosylab1k]

Is a Walden reference too obvious for DannyB? let's see!

[Johnny RIngo]

You didn't answer the question. At all. Nice dancing, though. Is he elite, or not?

I also think its really funny that according to you, Marion's a playoff choker but Dirk isn't. Fuck. Wow. Dirk performed the single greatest choke act in the most embarassing upset in NBA history just last year, and he's still not a choker in your book. Can you even name me a specific game in which Marion choked?

Stop comparing a glorified role player like Marion to one of the top players in the league. It's a bit ridiculous. You can call Dirk whatever you want but he's still led his team farther than anyone on S0ns.

Hell, if it wasn't for the refs, the '93 S0ns would be labeled as the greatest choke artists in NBA history. Every real NBA fan knows LA had 'em beat. Sonics should have been in the Finals that year.

[Reggie Miller]

You didn't answer the question. At all. Nice dancing, though. Is he elite, or not?

I also think its really funny that according to you, Marion's a playoff choker but Dirk isn't. Fuck. Wow. Dirk performed the single greatest choke act in the most embarassing upset in NBA history just last year, and he's still not a choker in your book. Can you even name me a specific game in which Marion choked?


Nice try at baiting me.

An "elite" player is "consistent." An "inconsistent" player would not be "elite."

Calling someone a "choker" is a value judgment. Basically, one is saying that a particular player is somehow deficient in character, competitive drive, or ability to handle pressure. In the GS-Mavs series, Nowitzki was forced to play out of position and in a different style. He failed. I don't see this as an indictment of his character.

Is Dirk inconsistent? Again, it's not a fair question, based on that particular series. When we consider both playoff collapses, it may be appropriate to question his consistency. It's still a little early to tell.

Marion is a non-entity when Bowen guards him. To be fair to him, there are several players that have been Bowened over the years. I suppose he is consistent in that he cannot create his own offense when he is closely guarded. I would say that a truly elite player would not be shut down by single coverage.

[Reggie Miller]

You dumbass, that's what I was making fun of him for. He's always name-dropping and trying to smuggle philosophy 101 into posts.


Nope. Only when I deal with your sorry ass.

[DannyB]

lmao

That pic's hilarious!

You're an idiot Johnny. I'm gonna save that quote as an example to all my friends of how stupid Spurs fans are. "Marion's a glorified role player."

[monosylab1k]

You're an idiot Johnny. I'm gonna save that quote as an example to all my friends of how stupid Spurs fans are. "Marion's a glorified role player."
why is that? the pic IS hilarious. Shows what a stupid pussy Amare is. He can do pushups on the court but God forbid he play some defense.

[DannyB]

Nice try at baiting me.

Baiting you? Dude, you're a total douche. I asked you a simple question and you spun off some long-winded bullshit response to explain to me why my question wasn't proper or something.

[DannyB]

why is that? the pic IS hilarious. Shows what a stupid pussy Amare is. He can do pushups on the court but God forbid he play some defense.

Right. You find one picture of Amare stepping out of the way and suddenly he doesn't play any defense ever. I mean, fuck the context, right? He might have had 5 fouls or something, but for you that picture is the ENTIRE story, right?

[Findog]

or Rosencrantz and Guildenstern. stop dropping names you think make you look smart, douche.

After having to wade through the logic and wisdom of "DannyB," it makes me want to punch Vinny Del Negro in the face if I ever see him in person.

[monosylab1k]

Right. You find one picture of Amare stepping out of the way and suddenly he doesn't play any defense ever.
No, I figured that out from 82 regular season games & the playoffs. repeated for the past few years. He played as much defense last year as he did the year before sitting on the couch with a bad knee.

[Reggie Miller]

After having to wade through the logic and wisdom of "DannyB," it makes me want to punch Vinny Del Negro in the face if I ever see him in person.


Funny you should mention that. I already wanted to punch Del Negro before this. You can imagine how I feel now...

[Findog]

Right. You find one picture of Amare stepping out of the way and suddenly he doesn't play any defense ever. I mean, fuck the context, right? He might have had 5 fouls or something, but for you that picture is the ENTIRE story, right?

Hey, Shawn Marion is better than Dirk, right?

[Reggie Miller]

Baiting you? Dude, you're a total douche. I asked you a simple question and you spun off some long-winded bullshit response to explain to me why my question wasn't proper or something.


I quit. You clearly have me at a disadvantage, since you don't bother to comprehend what I write. In contrast, I actually bother to read your syphillitic ramblings, which just makes me sad...

[Findog]

Funny you should mention that. I already wanted to punch Del Negro before this. You can imagine how I feel now...

He must be da_suns_fan's retarded friend from arizona sports fans or phxsuns.net...same phenomenon as a somewhat decent girl recruiting her ugly gal pals for a night of cruising for guys.

[DannyB]

No, I figured that out from 82 regular season games & the playoffs. repeated for the past few years. He played as much defense last year as he did the year before sitting on the couch with a bad knee.

To say an NBA player plays no defense is retarded. Some players are better than others, but they all play defense. Just because a guy doesn't fit into the Bruce Bowen mould doesn't make him a worthless player. You make it sound like the guy doesn't ever even try, which is either exaggeration, or just plain stupid.

[monosylab1k]

You make it sound like the guy doesn't ever even try

he doesn't


which is either exaggeration, or just plain stupid.

it isn't

[Findog]

To say an NBA player plays no defense is retarded. Some players are better than others, but they all play defense. Just because a guy doesn't fit into the Bruce Bowen mould doesn't make him a worthless player. You make it sound like the guy doesn't ever even try, which is either exaggeration, or just plain stupid.

It's not that he doesn't try, it's that it's not near the priority as a rim-rattling dunk to get on SportsCenter. When he does bother to put forth effort on defense, he swings for the fences by always going for the block instead of getting set properly. He's a pretty shitty defender, and why it's comical that the Suns trolls compare him to Duncan.

[DannyB]

Hey, Shawn Marion is better than Dirk, right?

Now that is an example of baiting, my friend. Take notes Reggie Miller.

To answer you question, no. I don't think so. I would not say Marion is better than Dirk. I think they are both elite players. I would say both of those guys are in the top 10 or 15 overall players in the league. That's probably why each of them routinely make the All-Star team, the All-NBA teams, and both usually receive MVP votes.

[Reggie Miller]

He must be da_suns_fan's retarded friend from arizona sports fans or phxsuns.net...same phenomenon as a somewhat decent girl recruiting her ugly gal pals for a night of cruising for guys.

Since I am a name-dropping douche, there is only way to respond to that:

"A palpable hit!"

"A touch, a touch! I do confess I fear I breathe my last..."

[Findog]

Now that is an example of baiting, my friend. Take notes Reggie Miller.

To answer you question, no. I don't think so. I would not say Marion is better than Dirk.

I could've been fooled with 3+ pages of your knobgobbling him.

[Findog]

Since I am a name-dropping douche, there is only way to respond to that:

"A palpable hit!"

"A touch, a touch! I do confess I fear I breathe my last..."

Oh, that's way too pedestrian and low-brow for DannyB.

[Reggie Miller]

Now that is an example of baiting, my friend. Take notes Reggie Miller.

To answer you question, no. I don't think so. I would not say Marion is better than Dirk. I think they are both elite players. I would say both of those guys are in the top 10 or 15 overall players in the league. That's probably why each of them routinely make the All-Star team, the All-NBA teams, and both usually receive MVP votes.



Syphillitic ramblings.

[DannyB]

I quit. You clearly have me at a disadvantage, since you don't bother to comprehend what I write. In contrast, I actually bother to read your syphillitic ramblings, which just makes me sad...

Your writing is tedious and idiotic. I asked if you considered Dirk an elite player, and you acted like I was trying to trick you into confessing that you killed Nicole Simpson. You are a evasive douche.

[Findog]

Syphillitic ramblings.

do DannyB and da_suns_fan soap each other's cocks, gaze lovingly into each other's eyes and feed each other baklava?

DannyB: "He touched me! He touched me! And suddenly NOTHING is the same!"

[DannyB]

Syphillitic ramblings.

You're an idiot. That doesn't even make sense. My diseased ramblings? Is that what you were trying to say, or are you just misusing a new word you just heard?

[stretch]

do DannyB and da_suns_fan soap each other's cocks, gaze lovingly into each other's eyes and feed each other baklava?

I just bust out laughing at work.

[Reggie Miller]

You're an idiot. That doesn't even make sense. My diseased ramblings? Is that what you were trying to say, or are you just misusing a new word you just heard?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabes_dorsalis


Reading is fundamental.

[Findog]

I just bust out laughing at work.

Suns trolls are my muse.

[monosylab1k]

has this broken the record for the most times Suns Trolls have been owned in a single thread?

[Reggie Miller]

Suns trolls are my muse.


Yes, yes they are.

Keep up the good fight. It's almost time for me to go home.

[stretch]

Suns trolls are my muse.
I just don't get how people can lack reading comprehension so badly. It's humanly not possible to be as stupid as these two guys. And the sad thing is, they arent trying to act stupid to be funny or trolls. They are trying their best to be good posters, and are still too fucking stupid to know what they are talking about.

[stretch]

This thread should definitely go in the Classic Threads.

[Findog]

has this broken the record for the most times Suns Trolls have been owned in a single thread?

This is becoming as infamous as the Quattro thread. Not that I would know, I never posted in it.

[monosylab1k]

Reggie Miller gets thread MVP for his complete dismantling of DannyB.

[Reggie Miller]

has this broken the record for the most times Suns Trolls have been owned in a single thread?

DannyB has broken all previous records for self-ownage. SpursDynasty needs to step his game up and be more "consistent" if he ever hopes to catch up...

[stretch]

Reading is fundamental.
You really shouldn't have said that. Now he is going to say that since the Suns players can read, they have good fundamentals.

[Findog]

I just don't get how people can lack reading comprehension so badly. It's humanly not possible to be as stupid as these two guys. And the sad thing is, they arent trying to act stupid to be funny or trolls. They are trying their best to be good posters, and are still too fucking stupid to know what they are talking about.

You would also think that since Phoenix is a two-team town, your average sports fan there would be able to master both basketball and baseball. There's no other sports teams competing for their attention.

[stretch]

man this sucks. I'm not going to be able to post much if at all tomorrow. I got some stupid fucking subpoena to work on and wont be at my computer. you guys gotta represent well for me.

[Reggie Miller]

Reggie Miller gets thread MVP for his complete dismantling of DannyB.


Thank you; you're too kind. It was almost too easy once I got in the groove.

[Reggie Miller]

You really shouldn't have said that. Now he is going to say that since the Suns players can read, they have good fundamentals.


:lol

Considering some of the things Microfracture Jesus has tatooed on him, I think at least one of their players can't read. At least that would explain it...

[DannyB]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabes_dorsalis


Reading is fundamental.

What's your point fuckface? I know what the word means, that's hardly the point. The point is that you're such a fucking intellectual poser that you've got to use obscure terminology and drone on about esoteric bullshit all the time. Why not just try to fucking communicate for a change? And while you're at it, try answering a simple question without turning it upside down and spinning it around, dressing it up, dissecting the fucker, and then acting like you've said something profound. Fuck you, asshole.

[Reggie Miller]

What's your point fuckface? I know what the word means, that's hardly the point. The point is that you're such a fucking intellectual poser that you've got to use obscure terminology and drone on about esoteric bullshit all the time. Why not just try to fucking communicate for a change? And while you're at it, try answering a simple question without turning it upside down and spinning it around, dressing it up, dissecting the fucker, and then acting like you've said something profound. Fuck you, asshole.


Wow. Take a quick poll. Most people with a high school education know that syphillis causes insanity. You'll notice that everyone else here seemed to know what it meant. It's not exactly an esoteric turn of phrase.

EDIT: Time to go home. Good luck on the subpoena tomorrow, stretch.

[DannyB]

How did he dismantle me? He didn't even answer my fucking question! You guys are all fucking posers. None of you ever refute anything, you just sit around back-slapping eachother.

[DannyB]

Wow. Take a quick poll. Most people with a high school education know that syphillis causes insanity. You'll notice that everyone else here seemed to know what it meant. It's not exactly an esoteric turn of phrase.

I knew exactly what it meant. Can't you even grasp that? I also know that when most people think of syphillis they don't primarly think of it as a mental disease anyway.

[monosylab1k]

What's your point fuckface? I know what the word means, that's hardly the point. The point is that you're such a fucking intellectual poser that you've got to use obscure terminology and drone on about esoteric bullshit all the time. Why not just try to fucking communicate for a change? And while you're at it, try answering a simple question without turning it upside down and spinning it around, dressing it up, dissecting the fucker, and then acting like you've said something profound. Fuck you, asshole.
:lmao and the meltdown arrives.

"fuck you! your posts make my little brain hurt with all the big words! fuck!"

[monosylab1k]

How did he dismantle me? He didn't even answer my fucking question! You guys are all fucking posers. None of you ever refute anything, you just sit around back-slapping eachother.
ROFL

[DannyB]

:lmao and the meltdown arrives.

"fuck you! your posts make my little brain hurt with all the big words! fuck!"

Which is it, dumbass? First you accuse me of using big words and being an intellectual poser because I wrote "Hume" and "Thales" to mock Reggie Miller; and now you're claiming I have a tiny brain that can't comprehend big words. Talk about stupid.

[DannyB]

ROFL

Exactly. You make my point. No responses, just back-slapping and jerking each other off.

[monosylab1k]

Exactly. You make my point. No responses, just back-slapping and jerking each other off.
ROFL ROFL

[RonMexico]

I'm getting my penis fellated right now... in Thailand

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Back on topic (somewhat) Shawn Marion definitely does shrink in the playoffs. This is pretty much indisputable for anybody that actually watched most of the games. Not saying that he's a choker (although he definitely is a mental midget), but because of the nature of the more slowed down game, and the fact that teams typically use a premier perimeter defender on him limit all of his cleanup opportunites. And the dude can't create jack shit for himself.

[SpursIndonesia]

It's rather comical of comparing franchise player like Dirk Nowitzki and a great role player like Shawn Marion. IMHO, Nowitzki is not an NBA playoff legend in the making, but the Mavs are still a team built around him. Can you say the same about Marion ?

[JMarkJohns]

I'd argue that much of Marion's Casper has been against the Spurs. He's had some very good averages vs. the rest of the playoff teams, but against the Spurs he's just completely taken out of his element.

I'd venture to say that vs. every team not the Spurs, he's close to 20-10 averages. Vs. the Spurs, probably like 10-14 ppg, 6-8 rpg if not worse.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I'd argue that much of Marion's Casper has been against the Spurs. He's had some very good averages vs. the rest of the playoff teams, but against the Spurs he's just completely taken out of his element.

I'd venture to say that vs. every team not the Spurs, he's close to 20-10 averages. Vs. the Spurs, probably like 10-14 ppg, 6-8 rpg if not worse.

Probably just because Shawn shys away from the more physical game (which is more prevelant in the playoffs and which doesn't exist in LA or one of the first round teams).

[ShoogarBear]

So in the last 30 years, only three teams have finished the year with a worse EFG% and won the title. Twice it was the Bulls during their first 3-peat and the 00-01 Lakers who steamrolled through the Playoffs, losing only one game.

All coached by Phil Jackson, interestingly enough.

Maybe D'Antoni should stop bitching at him and pay more attention to him.

[DannyB]

It's rather comical of comparing franchise player like Dirk Nowitzki and a great role player like Shawn Marion. IMHO, Nowitzki is not an NBA playoff legend in the making, but the Mavs are still a team built around him. Can you say the same about Marion ?

You know what? You're a fucking idiot for continually insisting that Shawn Marion is a role player. What the fuck do you even mean? What the fuck do you consider to be a "role player"? The guy starts, scores a ton of points, gets a ton of rebounds, gets a ton of steals, gets a bunch of blocks, plays D on the opponents' best offensive player, routinely leads the league in minutes ... etc. Role player? Seriously? You gonna keep pushing that bullshit line of argument? Who the fuck else in the league, besides Garnett, puts up numbers like Marion ... and you call him a role player. FUCK!!!! I don't even know what else to say to you. Shit. He's got to be the greatest fucking shitbag role player of all time or something.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Marion is a role player because you can't run the offense through him and he can't create his own shot. This opposed to a franchise player who you can successfully build around.

[DannyB]

I'd argue that much of Marion's Casper has been against the Spurs. He's had some very good averages vs. the rest of the playoff teams, but against the Spurs he's just completely taken out of his element.

I'd venture to say that vs. every team not the Spurs, he's close to 20-10 averages. Vs. the Spurs, probably like 10-14 ppg, 6-8 rpg if not worse.

Well kudos to you for identifying an obvious fact that has escaped everyone else on this biased forum. Y'all go on and on and on and on and on about how great the Spurs D is ... which I dispute ... but then all of you (you excluded JMarkJohns) want to talk about how much the Suns suck against the Spurs. Which is it? Are the Spurs so freaking awesome that they alone can cope with the Suns, or are the Suns just so damned weak? Pick one, I say. But y'all can't have both.

Personally, I think the Suns are such a good team that I realistically expect them to blow out every team they play every night. And a fucking hell of a lot of the time, they do exactly that. Can you say that for the Spurs? Even when you play a team you think the Spurs should beat? No. You can't. The Spurs do blow out a few opponents, but you sure as fuck don't actually expect it every night. Different story with the Suns. I just don't get how all of you Spurs fans have distorted the reality of Spurs-Suns 07 to make into some kind of domination (you excluded JMarkJohn, I know you have admitted that the series was very close in past posts). The Suns are good. They are probably the only team in the NBA who could possibly beat the Spurs in a playoffs series. Just admit it, and the the truth shall set you free.

[ShoogarBear]

Personally, I think the Suns are such a good team that I realistically expect them to blow out every team they play every night. And a fucking hell of a lot of the time, they do exactly that. Can you say that for the Spurs? Even when you play a team you think the Spurs should beat? No. You can't. The Spurs do blow out a few opponents, but you sure as fuck don't actually expect it every night. Different story with the Suns. 2006-2007 Regular Season
Point differential:
Spurs +8.4
Suns +7.3

Games won by 10 points or more:
Spurs 35
Suns 32

Not content with being the Stupidest Person on SpursTalk, DannyB starts prepping for the World Title . . .

[SpursIndonesia]

Marion is a role player because you can't run the offense through him and he can't create his own shot. This opposed to a franchise player who you can successfully build around.

DannyB is yet again owned by his own team knowledgeable fan, HILARIOUS !!

Memo to DannyB, Marion's this generation GREAT role player, but good luck finding other team franchise player to trade for him, LOL. One for one, pound for pound.
:smokin

[DannyB]

2006-2007 Regular Season
Point differential:
Spurs +8.4
Suns +7.3

Games won by 10 points or more:
Spurs 35
Suns 32

Not content with being the Stupidest Person on SpursTalk, DannyB starts prepping for the World Title . . .

That's great. But I wasn't talking about last year. I'm done even thinking about last year. I'm talking about this year, and the way they played last night (115-83 win). Suck it.
:spin :spin

[Findog]

). The Suns are good. They are probably the only team in the NBA who could possibly beat the Spurs in a playoffs series. Just admit it, and the the truth shall set you free.

Hmm, we already sent the Spurs fishing. You mangle statistics (Marion's steals per game, Suns point differential) you don't seem aware of recent history, can you possibly be more full of shit? C'mon admit it, the Suns are a diversion during the Diamondbacks offseason.

[da_suns_fan__]

Hmm, we already sent the Spurs fishing. You mangle statistics (Marion's steals per game, Suns point differential) you don't seem aware of recent history, can you possibly be more full of shit? C'mon admit it, the Suns are a diversion during the Diamondbacks offseason.


LMAO.....the Mavs sent the Spurs fishing two years ago...what kind of team do they have NOW? A team that can't even make it out of the first round.

How many times did the Spurs keep the Suns below 100 points during their series last year.

One. The game Amare and Diaw were suspended.

The Spurs can't stop the Suns. Im pretty confident Amare and Diaw won't get suspended again and the Suns will come out on top.

As for the Mavericks, some things to watch out for this season:

1) For how long will Avery Johnson continue to over-manage (a la Popovic) and bring Jason Terry off the bench. This kind of thinking is exactly why the Mavs have gotten their asses handed to them the past two seasons by inferior teams.

2) Will Avery insist on putting Dampier back into the rotation even though he's a bum and has a negative effect on the teams output (see Warriors series)? Again, this is Avery over-managing. Playing 10 guys simply so he can say he played ten guys.

3) If the Mavs' position is cemented in the final week of the year, will Avery pull his starters like he did last year?

[Findog]

LMAO.....the Mavs sent the Spurs fishing two years ago...what kind of team do they have NOW?

I dunno, eighty percent of the same roster. We've made it out of the first round 6 out of 8 times in the Dirk era. I'm not sweating it.






How many times did the Spurs keep the Suns below 100 points during their series last year.

How many times did the Spurs beat the Suns during their series last year? 4 times. Take away the "tainted" G5, and it's still 3-2 Spurs. You guys were down 20 points in the 4th Quarter of G6. STFU about how "The Spurs can't stop the Suns. I'm pretty confident Amare and Diaw won't get suspended again," because it doesn't fucking matter. Boris Diaw chipped in what, 1 point and 1 rebound in G6? Amare can't play on one side of the court and you have no interior defenders now.




1) For how long will Avery Johnson continue to over-manage (a la Popovic) and bring Jason Terry off the bench. This kind of thinking is exactly why the Mavs have gotten their asses handed to them the past two seasons to inferior teams.

We're 3-1 and Terry is averaging 23 ppg on 60% shooting. It doesn't matter if he starts the game on the bench, he will be on the floor in the 4th Q. Worry about your own coach and his propensity for playing his 6 guys way too much in the regular season.



2) Will Avery insist on putting Dampier back into the rotation even though he's a bum and has a negative effect on the teams output (see Warriors series)? Again, this is Avery over-managing. Playing 10 guys simply so he can say he played ten guys.

Dampier barely played against the Warriors because of a torn rotator cuff. If you bothered to watch those games, you'd know that. Mono will argue with me on this, but say what you want about his salary, but he improves our interior defense and rebounding, two things your team is in short supply of during the postseason. We don't beat San Antonio without Dirk, but we don't beat them without Dampier and Diop either. Diop doesn't have the conditioning or stamina to consistently play starter's minutes.

Worry about your team (there's ample issues there), and I'll worry about mine.

[DannyB]

Hmm, we already sent the Spurs fishing. You mangle statistics (Marion's steals per game, Suns point differential) you don't seem aware of recent history, can you possibly be more full of shit? C'mon admit it, the Suns are a diversion during the Diamondbacks offseason.

How exactly did I "mangle" Marion's SPG stat? I said he was averaging 2.7 --which he is-- and that he pretty much always gets at least 2 SPG every year. His career average is 1.9. And I never quoted any point differential stat. I did say something about the Spurs and Suns having 2 of the best point differentials in the league (along with the Mavs). You're a dumbass Findog.

[da_suns_fan__]

I dunno, eighty percent of the same roster. We've made it out of the first round 6 out of 8 times in the Dirk era. I'm not sweating it.

But youve (I assume you mean the Mavs) made it out the first round only two of three times without Nash. The West is even better this year. If the Mavs go up against the Warriors or Lakers (two teams with superior coaching), its gonna be another short post-season again for the Mavs.



How many times did the Spurs beat the Suns during their series last year? 4 times. Take away the "tainted" G5, and it's still 3-2 Spurs. You guys were down 20 points in the 4th Quarter of G6. STFU about how "The Spurs can't stop the Suns. I'm pretty confident Amare and Diaw won't get suspended again," because it doesn't fucking matter. Boris Diaw chipped in what, 1 point and 1 rebound in G6? Amare can't play on one side of the court and you have no interior defenders now.

Too bad it takes four games to win a series...and I like how you "Take away" the Spurs' tainted win yet don't award it to the Suns. If you take it away from the Spurs, then you obvioulsy need to give it to the Suns. Thats a 3-3 tie going into a game seven in Phoenix. Judging how poorly the SPurs played their last two games there, its pretty obvious the Suns would've taken it.





We're 3-1 and Terry is averaging 23 ppg on 60% shooting. It doesn't matter if he starts the game on the bench, he will be on the floor in the 4th Q. Worry about your own coach and his propensity for playing his 6 guys way too much in the regular season.

We've talked about D'Antoni endlessly in this thread already.....are you too proud to admit that your coach over-manages? How many years in a row will he cost them a series before you'll admit that its a problem?





Dampier barely played against the Warriors because of a torn rotator cuff. If you bothered to watch those games, you'd know that. Mono will argue with me on this, but say what you want about his salary, but he improves our interior defense and rebounding, two things your team is in short supply of during the postseason. We don't beat San Antonio without Dirk, but we don't beat them without Dampier and Diop either. Diop doesn't have the conditioning or stamina to consistently play starter's minutes.

Well Mono obviously isn't too proud to recognize a bum when he sees one on his team.

I hope the Mavs do play Dampier...especially against the Suns. Amare OWNS Dampier.



Worry about your team (there's ample issues there), and I'll worry about mine.

:lol

You big wuss.

[Findog]

But youve (I assume you mean the Mavs) made it out the first round only two of three times without Nash.

Yeah, Steve Nash is the missing key to us winning a title. Which is why Phoenix is working on a four-peat.


The West is even better this year. If the Mavs go up against the Warriors or Lakers (two teams with superior coaching), its gonna be another short post-season again for the Mavs.

We'd make short work of the Lakers. We'll find out tomorrow if our offseason pickups make a difference against Golden State.




Too bad it takes four games to win a series...and I like how you "Take away" the Spurs' tainted win yet don't award it to the Suns. If you take it away from the Spurs, then you obvioulsy need to give it to the Suns.

No, it doesn't work that way. There's no guarantee that the Suns win G5 with Donuts and Duh'mare. San Antonio handled them three times with those guys available. From watching that game, it's obvious that the suspensions gave Phoenix an emotional lift and lit a fire, and the Spurs didn't match Phoenix in intensity for the first 20 minutes of the game. Starting with 4 minutes to play in the first half, San Antonio outscored Phoenix by 17 points over the last 28 minutes of the game. Does Phoenix play the first quarter and a half with the same bug up their ass with their full complement of players? There's no justification whatsoever to move that victory from one column to the other. If we agree that the game is "tainted" because the Suns are an immature bunch of whiners that couldn't follow a rule that every player on every team is aware of, the best we can do is simply pretend it didn't take place. It's still 3-2 Spurs, they still own you on your own floor, and you still got physically owned and were down by 20 points in an elimination game. The Mavs lost Terry to a suspension and still overcame it to beat San Antonio. I agree having those guys available increases Phoenix's chances of winning that game and possibly the series, but it's far from a lock. It's just meaningless supposition. All you guys had to do was win a game on the Spurs floor, which you'd already done, and win another game on your floor, which you had already done. You had your chance to win that series and you couldn't do it. Get over it already.


Thats a 3-3 tie going into a game seven in Phoenix. Judging how poorly the SPurs played their last two games there, its pretty obvious the Suns would've taken it.

No, it isn't. Aren't the Suns something like 6-15 against San Antonio during Nash: Part Deux? Haven't they been repeatedly owned in their own building in the playoffs against San Antonio? Why is Game 2 a more valid result than Game One? You're making suppositions. The best we can say is that even throwing out G5, we're left with a 3-2 Spurs lead, and Phoenix coming up woefully short in an elimination game. That doesn't inspire confidence that they would've won the series if Amare and Diaw stayed on the bench.






We've talked about D'Antoni endlessly in this thread already.....are you too proud to admit that your coach over-manages? How many years in a row will he cost them a series before you'll admit that its a problem?

Oh wait, so Dirk is off the hook now for our postseason failures? Please pick a lane. If you read through my posting history, I've directed plenty of blame at Avery for being outcoached by Riley and Nellie.


I hope the Mavs do play Dampier...especially against the Suns. Amare OWNS Dampier.

He wouldn't for matchup reasons. Diop would probably see more burn because he can run the floor better against an up-tempo team. Dampier is useful against San Antonio (Duncan), Houston (Ming), Utah (Boozer), Denver (Camby, Martin). Pity for the Suns that they don't place as high an emphasis on having interior defenders.





You big wuss

You worthless lump of smegma.

[da_suns_fan__]

Yeah, Steve Nash is the missing key to us winning a title. Which is why Phoenix is working on a four-peat.

Nash possesses the very traits the Mavericks lack: Heart, determination, leadership, backbone etc.




We'd make short work of the Lakers. We'll find out tomorrow if our offseason pickups make a difference against Golden State.

Not too sure about that....What makes you think the Mavs could handle Kobe any better than they handled Dwayne Wade?




No, it doesn't work that way. There's no guarantee that the Suns win G5 with Donuts and Duh'mare. San Antonio handled them three times with those guys available. From watching that game, it's obvious that the suspensions gave Phoenix an emotional lift and lit a fire, and the Spurs didn't match Phoenix in intensity for the first 20 minutes of the game. Starting with 4 minutes to play in the first half, San Antonio outscored Phoenix by 17 points over the last 28 minutes of the game. Does Phoenix play the first quarter and a half with the same bug up their ass with their full complement of players? There's no justification whatsoever to move that victory from one column to the other. If we agree that the game is "tainted" because the Suns are an immature bunch of whiners that couldn't follow a rule that every player on every team is aware of, the best we can do is simply pretend it didn't take place. It's still 3-2 Spurs, they still own you on your own floor, and you still got physically owned and were down by 20 points in an elimination game. The Mavs lost Terry to a suspension and still overcame it to beat San Antonio. I agree having those guys available increases Phoenix's chances of winning that game and possibly the series, but it's far from a lock. It's just meaningless supposition. All you guys had to do was win a game on the Spurs floor, which you'd already done, and win another game on your floor, which you had already done. You had your chance to win that series and you couldn't do it. Get over it already.

So in this "hypothetical" series, the Spurs had three games at home and the Suns had two and the Spurs win 3 games to two (each team having one victory on the other's home floor).

Why do you think we play the regular season? To determine who makes the playoffs and who has homecourt advantage. You want us to determine who is the better team of the two by looking at five games where the Spurs had home court. But the Suns earned the right to home court during the regular season. This was taken away from them with those suspensions.

Also, the Suns were down by twenty and valiantly fought back to pull close in the final minutes (I think they got as close at 3). I don't expect them to win EVERY game...especially when the Spurs basically played a perfect game.

And I don't see how the Spurs owned the Suns on their home court. They barely eeked out a win in game 5 (without Amare and Diaw) and they got their asses handed to them in game two. The Suns even might have won game 1 had Nash's nose not gotten busted open. Kudos to Nash for attempting to stay in and even draining a three to tie the game with a bloody face (this is the qualities that the Mavs lack that I was talking about earlier). Just too many bad breaks for the Suns.



No, it isn't. Aren't the Suns something like 6-15 against San Antonio during Nash: Part Deux? Haven't they been repeatedly owned in their own building in the playoffs against San Antonio? Why is Game 2 a more valid result than Game One? You're making suppositions. The best we can say is that even throwing out G5, we're left with a 3-2 Spurs lead, and Phoenix coming up woefully short in an elimination game. That doesn't inspire confidence that they would've won the series if Amare and Diaw stayed on the bench.

See above.






Oh wait, so Dirk is off the hook now for our postseason failures? Please pick a lane. If you read through my posting history, I've directed plenty of blame at Avery for being outcoached by Riley and Nellie.

They both deserve some of the blame. Avery for putting his team in a bad situation (Don Nelson and the Warriors new at the start of game one that they were in the Mavericks' heads). Dirk for not having the ability to overcome a very average eigth seed. Regardless of coach, there's no excuse for such a lackluster performance.



He wouldn't for matchup reasons. Diop would probably see more burn because he can run the floor better against an up-tempo team. Dampier is useful against San Antonio (Duncan), Houston (Ming), Utah (Boozer), Denver (Camby, Martin). Pity for the Suns that they don't place as high an emphasis on having interior defenders.

Didn't Diop play more minutes against the Spurs last year than Dampier did. Im pretty sure (we've had this argument before). If Avery's smart, he'll keep Dampiers ass on the bench where it belongs. He doesn't HAVE to play him. I wonder if he's receiving pressure from Cuban. No doubt the little Napoleon is still trying to save face for choosing Dampier over Steve Nash. :lol






You worthless lump of smegma.

Kudos for originality I guess.

[Findog]

Nash possesses the very traits the Mavericks lack: Heart, determination, leadership, backbone etc.


Along with an inability to play on both ends of the floor. And you can question their collective character all you want, and you would be profoundly wrong except in the case of poise, but the fact of the matter is that the Mavericks are a better team now than they were with Nash, and there are tradeoffs to going in a different direction. They could've sorely used Nash's ability to penetrate and create offense for others against the Warriors, since Terry is a classic tweener and Harris is not yet Nash's equal when it comes to distributing the ball. But Nash wouldn't have guarded Baron Davis any better than Terry or Harris, and a healthy Dampier would've been useful to protect the rim since our guards couldn't stop dribble penetration.



Not too sure about that....What makes you think the Mavs could handle Kobe any better than they handled Dwayne Wade?

Shaquille O'Neal. He's not nearly the same player that he once was, but as of 2006 when we played them, he still commands a double team and is an extensive part of game-planning and preparation. We handled the Heat pretty easily before that trade and in the games we've played them sans Shaq.




So in this "hypothetical" series, the Spurs had three games at home and the Suns had two and the Spurs win 3 games to two (each team having one victory on the other's home floor).

It wasn't a hypothetical series, your team lost. We're not talking about a sophisticated computer simulation or NBA Live 08.



Why do you think we play the regular season? To determine who makes the playoffs and who has homecourt advantage. You want us to determine who is the better team of the two by looking at five games where the Spurs had home court.

The Spurs have demonstrated repeatedly they have no problem winning a game in Phoenix. Championship teams don't need HCA to advance. It's always nice to have, but if you're a title team, you don't need it. The Spurs won the title in 2003 by clinching three straight series on the road. The Mavericks clinched a Finals berth by doing the same thing in 2006. The Heat in turn won the title in Dallas, not Miami. The Suns could've demonstrated they were a title team by winning Game Six in San Antonio. They couldn't do it. End of Discussion.

They put themselves in that position by losing their cool and not demonstrating poise. If they can't stay on the bench when it's a widely-known rule that every player and every coach is aware of, and when 8 of their teammates kept their asses glued to their seats, what does that say about their ability to handle the pressure of a Game 7? Amare and Boris are immature. If I'm a Suns fan, I hope they've learned from that experience. Maybe they have. But as of May 2006, they demonstrated that they couldn't overcome the Spurs experience and mettle.



Also, the Suns were down by twenty and valiantly fought back to pull close in the final minutes (I think they got as close at 3). I don't expect them to win EVERY game...especially when the Spurs basically played a perfect game.

They lost. They dug themselves a hole they couldn't dig out of. If they were a title team, they wouldn't have put themselves in that position to begin with.


I don't see how the Spurs owned the Suns on their home court.

4-7 at home against the Spurs in the Nash Part Deux Era. 1-2 in the 07 semis.


Kudos to Nash for attempting to stay in and even draining a three to tie the game with a bloody face (this is the qualities that the Mavs lack that I was talking about earlier).

You haven't watched too many Mavericks games. Just for contrast, when Jason Terry was suspended and the Mavericks were put in the position of having to win a game in San Antonio to avoid elimination, they didn't bitch and whine. They kept their mouths shut, played their hearts out, overcame a backbreaking Manu three and ran past the Spurs in overtime. And if they had lost that game, they wouldn't put the blame on anybody but themselves or Terry in particular for letting San Antonio back into that series.



Just too many bad breaks for the Suns.


Just too many self-inflicted wounds for the Suns, along with a hefty dose of Tim Duncan.









They both deserve some of the blame. Avery for putting his team in a bad situation (Don Nelson and the Warriors new at the start of game one that they were in the Mavericks' heads).

Dallas would not have beaten Phoenix or San Antonio had they advanced last year, so it's all a moot point. They weren't playing their best ball of the season and peaked way too early. There is a school of thought among many that Dallas should've tanked in the last week of the season against the Clippers to draw them for the playoffs instead of a very good Warrior team that had a talent infusion with a mid-season trade. They would've beaten the Clippers but a lack of perimeter defense and Dampier's injury would've doomed them just the same against SAS/PHX as it did Golden State. We weren't winning a title last year, and I think in the long run, the Golden State series exposed some previously hidden flaws that wouldn't have been illuminated otherwise. A loss to San Antonio would've just been blamed on having only one quality interior defender (Diop) instead of two (Dampier). I like the Trenton Hassell pickup, we needed a big, physical defender since both Harris and Terry gave up a lot of size and length to Davis and Richardson.




Didn't Diop play more minutes against the Spurs last year than Dampier did. Im pretty sure (we've had this argument before).

Yes, we did have this argument before, and you lost it:

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2006/series_sasdal.html

Dampier played way more minutes than Diop.


If Avery's smart, he'll keep Dampiers ass on the bench where it belongs. He doesn't HAVE to play him. I wonder if he's receiving pressure from Cuban. No doubt the little Napoleon is still trying to save face for choosing Dampier over Steve Nash. :lol

It was a tradeoff. It goes to show you how overrated Nash is that we lost him, replaced him with an interior defender that isn't exactly a 20-10 guy and got better, and went much further than we ever did with him. If I'm playing the Spurs in May, I'd rather have Erick Dampier and Jason Terry than Steve Nash and Shawn Bradley. We used Nash's salary slot to sign Dampier. It's not like we could have both.

[sribb43]

Grant Hill is about to play 40 minutes tonight. does Dumbtoni not realize this is the same Grant Hill with ankles more fragile than Dirk. He wont be around for the playoffs if he keeps this up

[da_suns_fan__]

Yes, we did have this argument before, and you lost it:

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2006/series_sasdal.html

Dampier played way more minutes than Diop.




Aha..yes, now I remember....I actually won that argument. Diop played more minutes LAST YEAR against the Spurs than Dampier (not two years ago...you always want to pretend last year was 2006...I would too after the egg the Mavs laid). Cant deny that FACT, can you?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?statsId=3518&sYear=2007&sType=2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?statsId=3117&sYear=2007&sType=2

Obviously, Avery realized how worthless he is.

You don't have to defend every guy on your team, FinDog. Its okay to admit when the Mavs fucked up.

[ShoogarBear]

I'm talking about this year, and the way they played last night. Suck it.
:spin :spinLast night? Who's talking about last night?

96-105.

Sometimes you must even amaze yourself.

[Findog]

Aha..yes, now I remember....I actually won that argument. Diop played more minutes LAST YEAR against the Spurs than Dampier (not two years ago...you always want to pretend last year was 2006...I would too after the egg the Mavs laid). Cant deny that FACT, can you?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?statsId=3518&sYear=2007&sType=2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?statsId=3117&sYear=2007&sType=2

Obviously, Avery realized how worthless he is.

You don't have to defend every guy on your team, FinDog. Its okay to admit when the Mavs fucked up.

Oh yeah, a random regular season game is more important and relevant than a playoff series for determining how Avery is gonna distribute minutes for the bigs against the Spurs. No context for foul trouble, nagging injuries, or if the team has played the 2nd night of a back to back and he wants to limit minutes.

Just for the record, here is the 2006-07 regular season distribution of minutes:

Game 1 @ Dallas: Diop 26, Dampier 22
Game 2 @ SA: Dampier 25, Diop 22
Game 3 @ SA: Diop 22, Dampier 12 ( started but was in foul trouble with 5 PF)
Game 4 @ Dal: Diop 34, Dampier DNP due to injury

Your argument is flawed and stupid, but what else is new? You have to actually watch the games and know what's going on. All things being equal, Dampier gets more minutes against San Antonio than Diop, especially in the playoffs. You're not an authority on the Suns, much less the Mavericks, so stop pretending that you are.

I know you're a Suns fan and you can't grasp the distinction between playoffs and regular season, but in the playoffs, you have to beat the same team four times in a best of seven series, so you develop a game plan and a strategy based on matchups. I'm sorry if you feel like this is patronizing you, but it really needs to be stated for your benefit. God, everytime I think you've hit rock bottom for self-ownage, the floor opens up even further.

You can't even win on a peripheral point, I see you failed to even try to refute the main arguments. Good job da_smegma_fan :lol

[Findog]

lol, the Suns

Grant Hill 41 minutes
Steve Nash 37 minutes

[dirk4mvp]

lol, the Suns

Grant Hill 41 minutes
Steve Nash 37 minutes


goddamm. Hill's feet are gonna fall off before the all-star break playing minutes like that.

[Findog]

goddamm. Hill's feet are gonna fall off before the all-star break playing minutes like that.

We lost to the Hawks too, but we were missing three-fifths of our starting lineup in the second half. They actually went all out to win this one. Dirk played 38 against Atlanta, nobody else had more than 33.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

We lost to the Hawks too, but we were missing three-fifths of our starting lineup in the second half. They actually went all out to win this one. Dirk played 38 against Atlanta, nobody else had more than 33.

And we didn't have STAT. Injury riddled games in November don't mean shit.

[Findog]

And we didn't have STAT. Injury riddled games in November don't mean shit.

Not in the grand scheme of things. I just DO NOT understand D'Antoni's obsession with HCA and the top seed, playing his main guys 35+ minutes a night instead of sacrificing 4-6 wins a year by holding minutes down.

[monosylab1k]

Aha..yes, now I remember....I actually won that argument. Diop played more minutes LAST YEAR against the Spurs than Dampier (not two years ago...you always want to pretend last year was 2006...I would too after the egg the Mavs laid). Cant deny that FACT, can you?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?statsId=3518&sYear=2007&sType=2

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?statsId=3117&sYear=2007&sType=2

Obviously, Avery realized how worthless he is.

You don't have to defend every guy on your team, FinDog. Its okay to admit when the Mavs fucked up.

leave it to Suns Troll to go bringing up the significance of regular season minutes played. I didn't even read that argument and I know you lost it.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Not in the grand scheme of things. I just DO NOT understand D'Antoni's obsession with HCA and the top seed, playing his main guys 35+ minutes a night instead of sacrificing 4-6 wins a year by holding minutes down.

Top seed is a pretty big advantage. It's much easier if you don't have to play both Dallas and San Antonio.

[Findog]

Top seed is a pretty big advantage. It's much easier if you don't have to play both Dallas and San Antonio.

With how screwy the seedings system is, you don't necessarily need that top seed. Two years ago the Suns got the two seed and only had to play one. I know they fixed that particular glitch, but considering how strong the SW division is this year, Houston, Dallas and San Antonio could grab the top three records and one of them is getting seeded fifth.

[RonMexico]

Unfortunate part is that they lost the game while racking up those minutes. I just have a feeling that guys like Banks and Tucker can waste time on the floor to give Nash and Hill a rest.

It really doesn't make sense to me. I play basketball all the time and I'm in farily decent shape, but I'm dead tired after playing 5 pick-up games or so in a row. I can't imagine what playing 80% of the minutes against the best and most physical players in the world for over 82 games must do to your body in the long-run. In other news, let's hope he keeps playing Brian Skinner because that guy might not be as talented as Kurt Thomas, but he works pretty damn hard out there and I respect that. He might not slow Duncan down too much in the playoffs, but he's definitely a strong enough guy to wear him down some.

Screw it, this team is gonna lose out on a title because of a cheap owner, a hard-headed coach, and a whiny small forward.

[DannyB]

Last night? Who's talking about last night?

96-105.

Sometimes you must even amaze yourself.

Brilliant! That post was written yesterDAY, and referred to the 115-93 Suns win over the Bobcats. You waited until after the Suns had lost a game to Atlanta to respond to try to make me look foolish. Jackass.

[stretch]

You're coming up on your 100th post of stupidity, DannyB. You should feel proud.

[DannyB]

lol, the Suns

Grant Hill 41 minutes
Steve Nash 37 minutes

All Suns haters are obsessed with how many fucking minutes our starters play. Obviously, when you win over 60 games it doesn't mean shit. And don't even try to claim that the Suns lost to the Spurs last year because they were tired. It's a fucking stupid old argument from the year before when the Suns ran out of players (due to injuries to Amare, Bell, K. Thomas) against the Mavs. Find something fucking relevant to criticize the Suns about.

[DannyB]

We lost to the Hawks too, but we were missing three-fifths of our starting lineup in the second half. They actually went all out to win this one. Dirk played 38 against Atlanta, nobody else had more than 33.

Yeah, we were only missing Amare, and Diaw's playing with foot/ankle injuries too. So what? Suns still lost, Mavs lost too. Hawks are gonna be a playoff team this year. Lots of talent over there. Too bad that draft pick is gonna suck now. Fucking draft lottery.

[DannyB]

You're coming up on your 100th post of stupidity, DannyB. You should feel proud.

I guess so. Since you're the reigning title-holder, I've got to ask is there some sort of formal award ceremony where you pass your trophy on to me?

[Reggie Miller]

All Suns haters are obsessed with how many fucking minutes our starters play. Obviously, when you win over 60 games it doesn't mean shit. And don't even try to claim that the Suns lost to the Spurs last year because they were tired. It's a fucking stupid old argument from the year before when the Suns ran out of players (due to injuries to Amare, Bell, K. Thomas) against the Mavs. Find something fucking relevant to criticize the Suns about.


You have confused "obsessed" with "amused."

You are correct that winning over 60 regular season games doesn't mean shit when the Suns can't get past San Antonio or Dallas. Maybe you are learning something after all.

I don't think you watched the 2006-2007 playoffs. The Suns didn't get tired in their losses? What happened in Game 5 then? I can hear the excuses now: No Amare, No Diaw. Guess what, clown? The reality is that two players were suspended. D'Antoni didn't distribute the minutes correctly to compensate, and the Suns blew a decent lead becuase they were sucking wind like Patrick Ewing by the fourth quarter.

Relevant Criticisms of the Suns:

1. Coached by a moron who refuses to learn from past mistakes.
a) Plays veterans too many minutes.
b) Fails to play his bench enough to allow the bench players to contribute in any meaningful way.
2. No interior defense or low post players.
3. No perimeter defense.
4. Overpaid stars who cannot create their own shot and are fairly one-dimensional, even offensively.
5. Poor attitude and sense of entitlement from D'Antoni on down the line.
6. Poor rebounding.

[Findog]

Yeah, we were only missing Amare, and Diaw's playing with foot/ankle injuries too. So what? Suns still lost, Mavs lost too. Hawks are gonna be a playoff team this year. Lots of talent over there. Too bad that draft pick is gonna suck now. Fucking draft lottery.


I refer you to the "lol, Mike D'Antoni" thread.

[Findog]

Relevant Criticisms of the Suns:

1. Coached by a moron who refuses to learn from past mistakes.
a) Plays veterans too many minutes.
b) Fails to play his bench enough to allow the bench players to contribute in any meaningful way.
2. No interior defense or low post players.
3. No perimeter defense.
4. Overpaid stars who cannot create their own shot and are fairly one-dimensional, even offensively.
5. Poor attitude and sense of entitlement from D'Antoni on down the line.
6. Poor rebounding.

Just to be fair Reggie, if you were to similarly scrutinize Dallas, what would you say? Not to dog them, but just because you have an astute basketball mind.

[da_suns_fan__]

Oh yeah, a random regular season game is more important and relevant than a playoff series for determining how Avery is gonna distribute minutes for the bigs against the Spurs. No context for foul trouble, nagging injuries, or if the team has played the 2nd night of a back to back and he wants to limit minutes.

Just for the record, here is the 2006-07 regular season distribution of minutes:

Game 1 @ Dallas: Diop 26, Dampier 22
Game 2 @ SA: Dampier 25, Diop 22
Game 3 @ SA: Diop 22, Dampier 12 ( started but was in foul trouble with 5 PF)
Game 4 @ Dal: Diop 34, Dampier DNP due to injury

Your argument is flawed and stupid, but what else is new?


Are you trying to embarrass your fellow Mavericks fans? Thank you for providing me with even more detailed data supporting the claim that Diop plays more against the Spurs than Dampier does. Honestly, its not even a challenge anymore, FinDog. You thumped yourself on this one. Diop played more minutes even when you throw out the game Dampier missed due to injury. But congratulations on self-ownage. Youve managed to prove my point and embarrass yourself in a single post.

I also appreciate the further data that proves than not only does Dampier not play very much against the Spurs, he absolutely sucks when he does:

5 fucking fouls in 12 minutes :lol :lol :lol :lol

No wonder Avery goes with Diop now. My guess is the only reason Dampier gets any minutes at all is becuase of the pressure he no doubt receives from Cuban.

"I got this hockey jersey with his name on it. You gotta play him or Im gonna look like a dumb ass!"

btw - Get out of the first round, THEN you can talk about who puts too much emphasis on the regular season.

As for the actual point of this argument, if Avery learns to stop over-managing every situation, the Mavericks have a chance at getting out of the first round. But judging from last year and how this season has started, I wouldn't put any money on it.

Game over. I win.

[Mister Sinister]

This goes in my Legendary Threads folder. Not in an age have I seen such epic amounts of ownage.

[monosylab1k]

Are you trying to embarrass your fellow Mavericks fans? Thank you for providing me with even more detailed data supporting the claim that Diop plays more against the Spurs than Dampier does. Honestly, its not even a challenge anymore, FinDog. You thumped yourself on this one. Diop played more minutes even when you throw out the game Dampier missed due to injury. But congratulations on self-ownage. Youve managed to prove my point and embarrass yourself in a single post.

I also appreciate the further data that proves than not only does Dampier not play very much against the Spurs, he absolutely sucks when he does:

5 fucking fouls in 12 minutes :lol :lol :lol :lol

No wonder Avery goes with Diop now. My guess is the only reason Dampier gets any minutes at all is becuase of the pressure he no doubt receives from Cuban.

"I got this hockey jersey with his name on it. You gotta play him or Im gonna look like a dumb ass!"

btw - Get out of the first round, THEN you can talk about who puts too much emphasis on the regular season.

As for the actual point of this argument, if Avery learns to stop over-managing every situation, the Mavericks have a chance at getting out of the first round. But judging from last year and how this season has started, I wouldn't put any money on it.

Game over. I win.

capitalize your O motherfucker

[monosylab1k]

This goes in my Legendary Threads folder. Not in an age have I seen such epic amounts of ownage.
it's incredible. the thread should be renamed "Official Suns Troll Ownage Thread"

[Mister Sinister]

it's incredible. the thread should be renamed "Official Suns Troll Ownage Thread"
I totally agree. Shit, joining ST actually caused me to *make* a Legendary Threads folder.

[Reggie Miller]

Just to be fair Reggie, if you were to similarly scrutinize Dallas, what would you say? Not to dog them, but just because you have an astute basketball mind.


Thank you.

Honestly, the Mavericks' problem really may be very simple. You need a better center. That would be a giant band-aid for all of the Maverick's problems.

Dirk is a great player, but his game is oriented to the high post -> out than high post -> in. This causes a lot of problems for the Mavericks. Teams don't have to put a true big man on Dirk to contain him, and they can park a big down low. (Some teams have their best big guard Nowitzki anyway, which I really don't understand.) Nowitzki can kill you with a quick jumper from the elbow area on out, but he can't rebound effectively from that position. He is not quick enough or skilled enough at interior defense to guard an elite big man down low without getting into foul trouble. In his defense, he is slowly getting better at playing down low, but he is who he is at this point. Basically, your best big doesn't play like a big, so you need a complimentary player.

With a big man capable of covering Shaq (admittedly these guys aren't that easy to find), the Mavericks have their title. They also don't have to expend as much energy against the Spurs. I'm not talking about a Duncan or Olajuwon, either. Even a player like Rik Smits or a young Sabonis would be enough to put this team over the top.

I don't know enough about the Mavericks to get much deeper than that. I only watch them when they play the Pacers or Spurs. I consider the Mavericks the second-best team in the league right now. I think a more experienced coach would have helped in 2005-2006. I don't think AJ made much of a difference this last year one way or the other. (Same outcome; different box scores.) Like every team, they could use a true point guard who played hard-nosed defense and could drop 30 on a given night, but I think those players only exist in a land of whimsy and nostalgia.

I'm not sure how to articulate this, but you have a diminishing returns problem. That is, as the second-best team in the league, the Mavericks can't do anything quickly to get dramatically better. Firing AJ wouldn't help. I think he and this team are better off developing with each other at this point. I would think that this would cause a morale problem on any team after what has happened. Trading Dirk is ridiculous, because a) he is a unique talent that will not net equal value at this time; b) same morale problem; c) he does not seem to have peaked yet (but should soon due to age). As currently constructed, the Mavericks can beat anyone in a seven game series, but they may have to play near-perfectly to do so, depending on the opponent. You have a small margin for error and no quick fix to widen that margin. I say "no quick fix" becuase I can't think of how they can get the big they need without developing one.

[Findog]

Are you trying to embarrass your fellow Mavericks fans?

Are you trying to make people from Arizona look like retards?


Thank you for providing me with even more detailed data supporting the claim that Diop plays more against the Spurs than Dampier does.

da_suns_fan: "A = Z."

findog: "No, A = A. Here is a link to the alphabet."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet


Honestly, its not even a challenge anymore, FinDog.

I know, I know, I feel like Barry Bonds taking batting practice when you try to talk basketball.


Diop played more minutes even when you throw out the game Dampier missed due to injury.

Capitalize your O motherfucker. Playoffs trump regular season




I also appreciate the further data that proves than not only does Dampier not play very much against the Spurs, he absolutely sucks when he does:

Dallas doesn't eliminate the Spurs without Dampier or another interior defender that can play his minutes. Dampier > Brian Skinner or Sean Marks, or if we going to compare his impact versus San Antonio to that of his predecessor, Dampier > Shawn Bradley.




btw - Get out of the first round, THEN you can talk about who puts too much emphasis on the regular season.

Make a Finals, beat the Spurs, rebound, play defense, then you can talk about who puts too much emphasis on the regular season.

Maybe we wouldn't give you such a hard time over the regular season if you could STFU about TV ratings, how many points per game the Suns score, how random regular season meetings between Dallas and San Antonio are more relevant for determining Avery's distribution of minutes over an actual playoff series, etc, etc.


As for the actual point of this argument, if Avery learns to stop over-managing every situation, the Mavericks have a chance at getting out of the first round. But judging from last year and how this season has started, I wouldn't put any money on it.

The actual point of this argument was that Steve Nash was overrated, the Mavericks are better off without him, and we swapped out an All-Star point guard for a decent defender who could allow us to get away with not doubling Duncan all the time. When this was actually put to the test, we beat the Spurs, whereas with Nash we failed twice.

As for Mike D'Antoni, it looks like he hasn't learned a single fucking thing from last season. Avery and Donnie picked up a good perimeter defender, which was sorely lacking against the Warriors, and they're giving untested youngsters (Barea, Bass) some burn to develop the bench.


Game over. I win

Capitalize your O, Motherfucker.

[Findog]

Thank you.

Honestly, the Mavericks' problem really may be very simple. You need a better center. That would be a giant band-aid for all of the Maverick's problems.

Dirk is a great player, but his game is oriented to the high post -> out than high post -> in. This causes a lot of problems for the Mavericks. Teams don't have to put a true big man on Dirk to contain him, and they can park a big down low. (Some teams have their best big guard Nowitzki anyway, which I really don't understand.) Nowitzki can kill you with a quick jumper from the elbow area on out, but he can't rebound effectively from that position. He is not quick enough or skilled enough at interior defense to guard an elite big man down low without getting into foul trouble. In his defense, he is slowly getting better at playing down low, but he is who he is at this point. Basically, your best big doesn't play like a big, so you need a complimentary player.

With a big man capable of covering Shaq (admittedly these guys aren't that easy to find), the Mavericks have their title. They also don't have to expend as much energy against the Spurs. I'm not talking about a Duncan or Olajuwon, either. Even a player like Rik Smits or a young Sabonis would be enough to put this team over the top.

I don't know enough about the Mavericks to get much deeper than that. I only watch them when they play the Pacers or Spurs. I consider the Mavericks the second-best team in the league right now. I think a more experienced coach would have helped in 2005-2006. I don't think AJ made much of a difference this last year one way or the other. (Same outcome; different box scores.) Like every team, they could use a true point guard who played hard-nosed defense and could drop 30 on a given night, but I think those players only exist in a land of whimsy and nostalgia.

I'm not sure how to articulate this, but you have a diminishing returns problem. That is, as the second-best team in the league, the Mavericks can't do anything quickly to get dramatically better. Firing AJ wouldn't help. I think he and this team are better off developing with each other at this point. I would think that this would cause a morale problem on any team after what has happened. Trading Dirk is ridiculous, because a) he is a unique talent that will not net equal value at this time; b) same morale problem; c) he does not seem to have peaked yet (but should soon due to age). As currently constructed, the Mavericks can beat anyone in a seven game series, but they may have to play near-perfectly to do so, depending on the opponent. You have a small margin for error and no quick fix to widen that margin. I say "no quick fix" becuase I can't think of how they can get the big they need without developing one.

Thanks for the analysis. I like the job defensively Dampier and Diop together do against Duncan, I think they were a big reason we got past the Spurs when previously we couldn't do it with Shawn Bradley, but neither one of them have any kind of consistent offensive game, and that killed us against Golden State. We just don't get any kind of points consistently from the C position and honestly I don't know what to do about that. I like Dampier if he's making MLE money, but who wants his contract?

[jman3000]

wouldnt a young sabonis have equaled a tim or dream? at least that's what i always hear.

[Reggie Miller]

Thanks for the analysis. I like the job defensively Dampier and Diop together do against Duncan, I think they were a big reason we got past the Spurs when previously we couldn't do it with Shawn Bradley, but neither one of them have any kind of consistent offensive game, and that killed us against Golden State. We just don't get any kind of points consistently from the C position and honestly I don't know what to do about that. I like Dampier if he's making MLE money, but who wants his contract?

Yep. That's why you may have to try to develop one as quickly as possible. I used to make fun of Smits back in the day, but he could score and at least contain people one on one. For his time, not so great. Now, those guys are worth their weight in gold.

The Mavericks are really a victim of their own success in a sense. They got too good too fast, instead of evolving gradually. I realize it's not really this simple, but Cuban spent too much money getting to "respectable" without much regard for Steps 2-3.

[Reggie Miller]

wouldnt a young sabonis have equaled a tim or dream? at least that's what i always hear.


:toast Touche! I have heard that as well, but I guess I am a hard sell.

Seriously, I was having trouble coming up with another non-controversial example of a "good, but by no means great" center. Even those guys aren't that common.

[RonMexico]

These threads are getting too gay for my taste.

Suns have Western Conference Champs banners.

Mavs have Western Conference Champs banners.

Spurs have NBA Champs banners.

I want the Suns to get one of those and I'm sure the Mavs fans would like to see one too. To achieve that, either Dirk needs to grow a playoff penis or D'Antoni needs to grow a rotation management brain. Otherwise, our only hope is that Eva's whipping of Parker tires him out more by the playoffs than D'Antoni's 90 minutes per game tires out Nash.

[ShoogarBear]

You waited until after the Suns had lost a game to Atlanta to respond to try to make me look foolish. No, I can pretty much do it at will.

[JMarkJohns]

This goes in my Legendary Threads folder. Not in an age have I seen such epic amounts of ownage.

I wouldn't say its "legendary" ... sad, pathetic, an abomination for good Suns fans, yes, but legandary its exaggerating its infamy a bit much.

I wish that Suns Troll forum would get here :) Clean this place up, some!!!

[stretch]

To achieve that... D'Antoni needs to grow a rotation management brain.

And get his team to play defense and rebound the basketball, which are the 2 things that a team must do to win a title more than anything else, which those things are never going to happen as long as Nash and Amare is there, so I'd say your hopes are pretty much shot. Sorry.

[Findog]

And get his team to play defense and rebound the basketball, which are the 2 things that a team must do to win a title more than anything else, which those things are never going to happen as long as Nash and Amare is there, so I'd say your hopes are pretty much shot. Sorry.

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but they can and probably would beat any team in a playoff series besides San Antonio. I can't wait for them to play Boston, I'm curious to see how they match up with the Celtics.

Also, if San Antonio doesn't repeat this year, it won't be because of their Big Three, but their role players doing them in. It's a cliche and it's said every year, but at some point Barry, Finley, Horry and Bowen are going to go sour like milk. I'm sure Pop will manage their minutes wisely, though, in any event.

[stretch]

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but they can and probably would beat any team in a playoff series besides San Antonio. I can't wait for them to play Boston, I'm curious to see how they match up with the Celtics.

Also, if San Antonio doesn't repeat this year, it won't be because of their Big Three, but their role players doing them in. It's a cliche and it's said every year, but at some point Barry, Finley, Horry and Bowen are going to go sour like milk. I'm sure Pop will manage their minutes wisely, though, in any event.
I honestly don't think they can beat Dallas. I think that between Diop and Bass, we got guys that can contain Amare, and Harris I think will give Nash some problems, much like Parker does with his speed, only he plays much better defense than Parker.

[DannyB]

No, I can pretty much do it at will.

Right. That's why your comeback was so fucking lame. That's why you have to lie to mock me. You're a total shitbag.

[stretch]

Right. That's why your comeback was so fucking lame. That's why you have to lie to mock me. You're a total shitbag.
lol, ratings over championship

[monosylab1k]

Right. That's why your comeback was so fucking lame. That's why you have to lie to mock me. You're a total shitbag.
what, no Dostoyevsky reference? instead it's "fuck this" and "fuck that" and "shitbag"?

[SpursIndonesia]

And get his team to play defense and rebound the basketball, which are the 2 things that a team must do to win a title more than anything else, which those things are never going to happen as long as Nash and Amare is there, so I'd say your hopes are pretty much shot. Sorry.

I think while those players have their MAJOR weakness, they're also MAJOR talents, that if coached correctly, can be truly serious cogs in a real championship contending team.

Dirk certainly is an under average NBA defender, but since his coach can address that weakness by solid team defense, it's not all too debilitating. OTOH, there's a coach that preaches 'run, run faster' as the best recipe for championship, LOL. :smokin

[SpursIndonesia]

I honestly don't think they can beat Dallas. I think that between Diop and Bass, we got guys that can contain Amare, and Harris I think will give Nash some problems, much like Parker does with his speed, only he plays much better defense than Parker.

Harris, better defender than Parker, a myth of a fact ? Mind you, it's a SERIOUS question, if anybody can bring some sort of statistics regarding this matter, that would be truly appreciated -i won't go homer on this if the evidences said otherwise.

[stretch]

Harris, better defender than Parker, a myth of a fact ? Mind you, it's a SERIOUS question, if anybody can bring some sort of statistics regarding this matter, that would be truly appreciated -i won't go homer on this if the evidences said otherwise.
Statistics don't track defense very well. If they did, then would you believe some of the stats that say that Dirk is one the best defensive PFs in the game?

If you honestly think Parker is equal to, or better at defense then Harris, then you need a fuckin eye exam.

[Findog]

what, no Dostoyevsky reference? instead it's "fuck this" and "fuck that" and "shitbag"?

He's going to throw a little William Faulkner at us, I bet. Just to mix things up.

[monosylab1k]

He's going to throw a little William Faulkner at us, I bet. Just to mix things up.
Either that or he'll start quoting Heart Of Darkness and then inform us that "Apocalypse Now is based on this, in case you didn't know. Go Suns!"

[ShoogarBear]

Right. That's why your comeback was so fucking lame. That's why you have to lie to mock me. You're a total shitbag.All takes to mock you is one functioning mitochondrion. Plankton in the sea mock you during photosynthesis breaks.

Do you want to point out to everyone exactly where I "lied"?.

Notice you haven't said one more imbecilic word about "blowouts".

[da_suns_fan__]

And get his team to play defense and rebound the basketball, which are the 2 things that a team must do to win a title more than anything else, which those things are never going to happen as long as Nash and Amare is there, so I'd say your hopes are pretty much shot. Sorry.


Rebounding is the biggest problem for the Suns. Saying the Suns don't play defense is just a cliche.

Nash led the league in charges. Marion was a top vote getter for DPOY. Bell made the all defensive first team.

I recently read a stat that the Suns were 29-1 last year when they out-rebounded their opponent.

[jmard5]

Statistics don't track defense very well. If they did, then would you believe some of the stats that say that Dirk is one the best defensive PFs in the game?

Very true. See last year's DPOY.

[Findog]

Rebounding is the biggest problem for the Suns. Saying the Suns don't play defense is just a cliche.

Adjusted for pace and # of possessions per game, they are average. That's not good enough if you want to win a title. They're not terrible, but you don't play crap teams like Charlotte or Seattle in the playoffs.


Nash led the league in charges.

Capitalize your O, motherfucker.


Marion was a top vote getter for DPOY. Bell made the all defensive first team.

Two very good defenders in their starting lineup, and yet they are average. The Suns are the most efficient offensive team in the league, and nobody can keep up with them if they push the pace and increase the # of possessions. And they definitely don't need Kurt Thomas to run teams out of the gym in January. But without him, they will flounder against good half-court teams with b2basket scorers in the playoffs.


I recently read a stat that the Suns were 29-1 last year when they out-rebounded their opponent

Which would make them 32-20 when they didn't. That's good, but again, you only play good teams after April.

[SpursIndonesia]

Statistics don't track defense very well. If they did, then would you believe some of the stats that say that Dirk is one the best defensive PFs in the game?

If you honestly think Parker is equal to, or better at defense then Harris, then you need a fuckin eye exam.

I made the question, since NBA coverage isn't that extensive in my country -some from local TV, more from ESPN Asia & Star TV, so i don't catch the Spurs & Mavs games all that much. What i mean by stats are perhaps the likes of head to head matchup, plus-minus, something like that.

So don't get bitchy like Suns troll, give me some numbers, and like what i've said before, if the proofs are convincing enough, i'll leave my rose colored glass and admit the righteousness of your premise that Harris is the better defender compared to Parker. :smokin

[stretch]

Rebounding is the biggest problem for the Suns. Saying the Suns don't play defense is just a cliche.

Nash led the league in charges. Marion was a top vote getter for DPOY. Bell made the all defensive first team.

I recently read a stat that the Suns were 29-1 last year when they out-rebounded their opponent.
Rebounding is a part of defense. If you don't rebound well, you don't play good defense. The point of defense is to limit your opponents opportunites and likeliness of scoring. If they don't have a bunch of second and third chance points because you are rebounding the ball well, then you are limiting their opportunities, and giving yourself more, thus rebounding is a MAJOR part of good defense. There has never been a good defensive team that couldn't rebound.

[stretch]

I made the question, since NBA coverage isn't that extensive in my country -some from local TV, more from ESPN Asia & Star TV, so i don't catch the Spurs & Mavs games all that much. What i mean by stats are perhaps the likes of head to head matchup, plus-minus, something like that.

So don't get bitchy like Suns troll, give me some numbers, and like what i've said before, if the proofs are convincing enough, i'll leave my rose colored glass and admit the righteousness of your premise that Harris is the better defender compared to Parker. :smokin
I'm not a Suns troll, fuckin genius. Read motherfucker.

If you knew a damn thing about basketball, you would know that statistics do not always show good defense. Perfect evidence of that is your very own, Bruce Bowen. He gets almost no steals and no blocks, yet he is the best defender in the NBA. Why? Because he locks guys up, and makes them take the hardest fucking shots possible.

But to help you, since you want stats, here are some. Harris averages more steals and more blocks in less minutes than Parker, not to mention he doesn't have a dominant defender like Tim Duncan behind him. You happy now? Now I wish to extend an invitation to you to kindly help yourself to a warm glass of shut the fuck up.

[SpursIndonesia]

LOL, what a bitch. Perhaps you have such a bad day that affect your hormone balance, okay, whatever. I'm done discussing that with U, and like what you've said your self, those stats number doesn't really tell the truth. Have a good day fella ! :lol

[RonMexico]

Rebounding and an increase in vagination are the Suns biggest weaknesses in the early season so far.

[jman3000]

i usually relate vagination to a good thing.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Steve Nash is on a mission from God. We shouldn't have had any business winning that game.

[Johnny RIngo]

Haha. S0ns already having trouble with a Wade-less Heat. You know your interior-defense sucks when an over-the-hill Shaq drops 25, 10, 3, 3 on your team.

[RonMexico]

i usually relate vagination to a good thing.

Well, obtaining vagina is a good thing.

Growing it (aka Marion) is a different story.

[RonMexico]

Haha. S0ns already having trouble with a Wade-less Heat. You know your interior-defense sucks when an over-the-hill Shaq drops 25, 10, 3, 3 on your team.

Shaq>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Duncan

[Johnny RIngo]

Shaq>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Duncan

36 year old Shaq>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Amare

[Johnny RIngo]

Rebounding is the biggest problem for the Suns. Saying the Suns don't play defense is just a cliche.

No, it's not. Compared to the other contenders the S0ns defense is a joke. The Spurs, Pistons, Mavs, Cavs, Bulls were all top defensive teams. S0ns, on the other hand, were 12th in defensive EFG% alongside teams like Nets and Raptors.


Nash led the league in charges. Marion was a top vote getter for DPOY. Bell made the all defensive first team.

Nash is a flopper. His defensive composite score is a pitiful 2.9 proving that all he can do is exaggerate contact on the defensive end. Same goes for the extremely overrated Bell.

Marion's an alright defender though.

[stretch]

LOL, what a bitch. Perhaps you have such a bad day that affect your hormone balance, okay, whatever. I'm done discussing that with U, and like what you've said your self, those stats number doesn't really tell the truth. Have a good day fella ! :lol
absolutely fantastic comeback. :rolleyes

[RonMexico]

If anyone has every "exaggerated contact" it's one Manu Ginobili.

[Johnny RIngo]

If anyone has every "exaggerated contact" it's one Manu Ginobili.

Nah, it's definately Steve Trash and Raja Bell. Both were top 10 floppers last year. Bell led the league in flops in '06.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Nah, it's definately Steve Trash and Raja Bell. Both were top 10 floppers last year. Bell led the league in flops in '06.

Flops != charges drawn. There's no accurate statistic for flopping.

[anakha]

Flops != charges drawn. There's no accurate statistic for flopping.

Not necessarily.
- Anderson Varejao :spin

[da_suns_fan__]

I can't believe Spurs fans have the gall to talk about about other teams flopping.

You have Manu fucking Ginobili on your team. Wake up, idiots!

[Johnny RIngo]

I can't believe S0ns fans have the gall to talk about about other teams flopping.

You have Steve Nash and Raja fucking Bell on your team. Wake up, idiots!

FIX'D it for ya

[Findog]

I can't believe Spurs fans have the gall to talk about about other teams flopping.

You have Manu fucking Ginobili on your team. Wake up, idiots!

Uh oh! Somebody's angry!

[sunsfansaregay]

I can't believe Spurs fans have the gall to talk about about other teams flopping.

You have Manu fucking Ginobili on your team. Wake up, idiots!
You're gay.

[FaggyB]

Right. That's why your comeback was so fucking lame. That's why you have to lie to mock me. You're a total shitbag.
Do you like penis?

[stretch]

I laughed so hard I almost peed my pants when I read your sage analysis/criticism of the Suns roster. That was pretty damned funny. So according to you, after the starting 5 the suns roster is pretty much worthless. Very funny for a Spurs fan to say, since you have exactly 3 good players on your team (Duncan, Ginobilli, Parker). The rest of that Spurs roster is straight poop. Garbabe. Role players. Aging veterans. Mediocre to sub-par talent at best. I mean, c'mon: Bonner, Mihinmi, Horry, Udoka, Barry, Elson, Bowen, Oberto, Vaughn, Washington, Finley? Are you serious? Those guys collectively are not as good as Barbosa and Diaw! None of those guys would break into the Suns starting line-up. Some of those guys wouldn't even crack the rotation on the Celtics! Gimmie a break!
Straight poop?

[Findog]

Straight poop?

I'm guessing DannyB is anxiously awaiting the sequel to 2 Girls, 1 Cup.

[DannyB]

I'm guessing DannyB is anxiously awaiting the sequel to 2 Girls, 1 Cup.

WTF?
:dizzy

[FaggyB]

WTF?
:dizzy
Don't be a fag.

[DannyB]

If anyone has every "exaggerated contact" it's one Manu Ginobili.

A-fucking-men. There's always been some flopping in the NBA, but Manu's the father of the new soccer flop currently infecting the NBA.

[monosylab1k]

Don't be a fag.
:lmao @ Roman Helmet avatar pic

[dirk4mvp]

DannyB you are a disgrace to mankind.