Game Thread: Spurs at Suns - Dec 6, 2021 - 8:00pm CT

[Sugus]

1. Gobert has always been overrated, as a complete player yes. But his defense is many magnitudes better than Jakob which is about the only thing Jakob can champion about his game. Gobert is also a much more skilled shooter and less of a liability when given the ball with no flow to the offense. Jakob goes full deer in headlights mode.
2. The biggest difference, and the PRIMARY reason Gobert got the nod are the nearly 3 blocks per game which are very close to all-time defensive NBA numbers.
3. And Jakob's FT% is more than just bad, it's abominable.
4. I don't hate Jakob if you think I do. He's clearly a better all around player this year. His offense and defense are better than last year which is all you can ask out of your players...other than to show some nasty. And he just, uh, never does.
5. To me, he's a career back up on a championship level team. Or a starter on a mediocre team. Even with his sub-par offensive game, he could change minds on that (like mine) by taking a power dribble from time to time and ing it behind his head for a two hand power jam when the defender is on the other side of the rim and a quick power move would give your shot a higher %age of going in.

I've already said that I don't expect/want Jakob to make an AS team. As I said below, Gobert had to first make multiple All-NBA teams, AND win back-to-back DPOY awards, in order to make his first All-Star game. It's just not the interest of the league to put defensive-first players in the ASG, and that's ok. My argument all along has been "Jakob can be 80% of Gobert for 20% of the price", and each season we're getting closer to seeing that come true. I don't mind if you hate him, or don't, but give the guy his respect when due (and hate when it's due, too, like his FT% ).

For what it's worth, I don't agree that Gobert is overrated. His abilities have simply become less relevant as the league shifts towards more perimeter play, and the same happens to Jakob, but it doesn't equal over/underrating. Gobert is excellent. And yes, he absolutely needed that eye-popping stat of 3 blocks (completely arbitrary bar, just what the ASG wants) to get consideration. As for your valuation, I don't disagree - I'm not opposed to the idea of having Jakob be the way-above-average-backup to a Ayton-level starting C, for example. But that sort of players aren't found every day, and it's still to be decided if the Spurs will even tank for one of those; and if you're looking at constructing a championship-level contender, I'd argue it's much, much more valuable to focus on your guards and forwards to provide scoring, than it is to expect it from your center. It's this incorrect valuation that displeases me most, but to each their own I guess, there's not one single blueprint for championships after all.

[JeffDuncan]

Funny there’s been no attention paid to Ayton in this little teapot tempest. Ayton is the Suns’ starting center, y’know.

Let’s have a look at something.

Stats from this last Suns game.

Ayton, in 35:10 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 13, for .538. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 6 D = 9 total.
4 assists, 1 block, 5 turnovers.

Poeltl, in 32:18 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 11 for .636. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 8 D = 11 total.
2 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers.

Poeltl equaled Ayton in scoring, and on better shooting, and he out rebounded Ayton. Poeltl had 2 fewer assists, but also 2 fewer turnovers.

In this battle of starting centers, Poeltl won.

Are certain posters now going to begin crapping all over themselves and spitting and spewing that Ayton is “really” only a backup center in the NBA?

Go get ‘em, tigers.

[Sugus]

Poeltl's excellent rim protection has been very evident this entire season as a whole and it helps our defense get stops when our offense is struggling to find shots.
I don't believe we need him to be much more than what he is offensively. I think of Tiago Splitter and the offense the spurs had with him at the 5. Tiago was as "soft" as they come but surrounded by the right players he worked well. His main thing was defense and passing.

Poeltl has shown some decent passing skills and has improved the pick and roll quite a bit. I think it just depends on what the spurs surround him with. But he can be, in my eyes, a legit starting center on a championship contender. No doubt.

Exactly, all perfect points.

The REAL problem for the Spurs as constructed doesn't lie at the C, but at the PF position.... Keldon isn't cutting it and probably won't ever cut it as a PF, neither starting nor bench one. But I don't know if SpursTalk is ready for that conversation regarding him.

[Sugus]

Funny there’s been no attention paid to Ayton in this little teapot tempest. Ayton is the Suns’ starting center, y’know.

Let’s have a look at something.

Stats from this last Suns game.

Ayton, in 35:10 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 13, for .538. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 6 D = 9 total.
4 assists, 1 block, 5 turnovers.

Poeltl, in 32:18 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 11 for .636. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 8 D = 11 total.
2 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers.

Poeltl equaled Ayton in scoring, and on better shooting, and he out rebounded Ayton. Poeltl had 2 fewer assists, but also 2 fewer turnovers.

In this battle of starting centers, Poeltl won.

Are certain posters now going to begin crapping all over themselves and spitting and spewing that Ayton is “really” only a backup center in the NBA?

Go get ‘em, tigers.

I always appreciate a stats-backed up post, even if it disagrees with my notions. Glad that it confirms them in this case, though, thanks my guy

Btw, where'd you get those stats so clean and neat? Or did you just copy off the game boxscore?

I'm absolutely looking forward to the suspect crew telling me Ayton belongs in the bench, next to Gobert, Capela, and every center who isn't shooting 5 3's per game

[EasyMoney]

Imagine suggesting Rudy Gobert and Clint Capela gotta come off the bench, just to demote Jakob

Y'all really grasping at straws now. The 3pt revolution has turned people's brains to mashed potatoes, it's incredible how far the pendulum's swung. A shooting C isn't the be-all, end-all of roster building, and traditional centers absolutely still have a place in the league, a starting place. Lol.

Sorry I was a little vague. I was just putting him in that category of bigs who may be exposed in playoff time , like gobert himself

[poopbox]

Who exactly is Jakob even better than in the nba right now? Like if we and the Rockets called the Pacers offering Jakob or Christian Woods for Turner does anybody think they are taking Jakob?

If us and Kings call them about Turner does anyone think they are taking Jakob instead of Holmes ?

If us and the Hawks call about Turner do you think they are taking Jakob over Capella ?

[JeffDuncan]

I always appreciate a stats-backed up post, even if it disagrees with my notions. Glad that it confirms them in this case, though, thanks my guy

Btw, where'd you get those stats so clean and neat? Or did you just copy off the game boxscore?

I just checked the box score and typed the stats in.

The talk about McGee has been pretty much context free, as if people don’t know who he is. He’s a 13 year vet who has 3 championship rings. He’s never been a star, but he’s a great big, highly experienced, tough sumbatch. Of course Eubanks couldn’t handle him, and neither could Thad.

Landale might have had the size and heft, to challenge McGee, but Jock has gotten no run. Like everybody else, I’m curious why not. He was available.

[heyheymymy]

Funny there’s been no attention paid to Ayton in this little teapot tempest. Ayton is the Suns’ starting center, y’know.

Let’s have a look at something.

Stats from this last Suns game.

Ayton, in 35:10 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 13, for .538. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 6 D = 9 total.
4 assists, 1 block, 5 turnovers.

Poeltl, in 32:18 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 11 for .636. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 8 D = 11 total.
2 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers.

Poeltl equaled Ayton in scoring, and on better shooting, and he out rebounded Ayton. Poeltl had 2 fewer assists, but also 2 fewer turnovers.

In this battle of starting centers, Poeltl won.

Are certain posters now going to begin crapping all over themselves and spitting and spewing that Ayton is “really” only a backup center in the NBA?

Go get ‘em, tigers.

Damn, great post. Nice template to present the stats and I was surprised how similar they were. I'd argue too, that Ayton was out a huge offensive contributor in Booker so for him to still only match Poeltl means he didn't really fill into that void any with Booker out. Maybe just not part of the phx gameplan but there were definitely extra shots to be had.

I'd argue Booker being out doesn't compare to Spurs missing Dev, really.

[MannyIsGod]

Note, the original post said almost all star level. A center like Gobert is better, but not dramatically so and definitely not when you consider how little Poeltl gets paid in comparison. Its amazing how people will take individual stats out of context in order to on players as if we can't all look at the same stats and see what you leave out. The bottom line is that Poeltl is an excellent member of this team and is on part with Murray as the best asset the Spurs currently posses. Anyone thinking he's not a starter when he's an above average starter is idiotic.

[Sugus]

Sorry I was a little vague. I was just putting him in that category of bigs who may be exposed in playoff time , like gobert himself

No problem. But you make an interesting point, and one that is really worthy of a tangential debate: is it really that traditional bigs are "exposed" in the playoffs, or is it that their team can't fill out that offensive hole and prevent exploitation?

Take Capela, for example, who got played off the Rockettes' lineups Vs Golden State, and promptly shipped off the team... Only for the Rockettes to become significantly worse without that presence at C, on both ends, when obviously Westbrook couldn't live up to expectations and Gordon got tired of playing full-time C. Gobert, same thing - he can perfectly defend the perimeter and inside, and got "exposed" by being repeatedly drawn out of the paint, leaving the Jazz, filled with bad defenders, unable to fill that defensive hole without him.

Could it be that it's not about "exposing", but about creating unbalanced rosters that depend too much on a C's defensive presence? It's an honest question, since Jakob is hardly the only big affected by this. And moreso, are shooting bigs unable to be exposed due simply to their shooting? Or can they too, be exploited? What's the "unexposable" list of centers like? I suppose Embiid, for example, can't be exposed, but he's an MVP candidate, like Jokic. Certainly up for debate once you reach the "middle tier", and I think it's much more matchup-dependant than your original classification makes it out to be (e.g. Capela wouldn't be played off the floor against any team other than GSW, or Gobert wouldn't be "exposed" against a not-so-significantly-tilted shooting team like those Rockettes were).

[Sugus]

Who exactly is Jakob even better than in the nba right now? Like if we and the Rockets called the Pacers offering Jakob or Christian Woods for Turner does anybody think they are taking Jakob?

If us and Kings call them about Turner does anyone think they are taking Jakob instead of Holmes ?

If us and the Hawks call about Turner do you think they are taking Jakob over Capella ?

I take Jakob over CWood, tbh. Both because of defensive presence, and because of Wood's at ude problems, he's a complicated guy, I don't care that he shoots 3's, he's not even that efficient at it last time I checked. I absolutely take Jakob over Holmes, no question. But I take Capela over Jakob, due to his athleticism and good hands, he's the perfect lob recipient (though I still point out that the Spurs lack a solid lob thrower in the first place, and would be under-utilizing Capela).

[offset formation]

Funny there’s been no attention paid to Ayton in this little teapot tempest. Ayton is the Suns’ starting center, y’know.

Let’s have a look at something.

Stats from this last Suns game.

Ayton, in 35:10 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 13, for .538. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 6 D = 9 total.
4 assists, 1 block, 5 turnovers.

Poeltl, in 32:18 of playing time.
Shooting, 7 of 11 for .636. 14 points.
No 3pt attempts & no freethrows.
Rebounding, 3 O + 8 D = 11 total.
2 assists, 1 block, 3 turnovers.

Poeltl equaled Ayton in scoring, and on better shooting, and he out rebounded Ayton. Poeltl had 2 fewer assists, but also 2 fewer turnovers.

In this battle of starting centers, Poeltl won.

Are certain posters now going to begin crapping all over themselves and spitting and spewing that Ayton is “really” only a backup center in the NBA?

Go get ‘em, tigers.

Disingenuous much?

Ayton has both inside and outside game, at least out to the FT line extended with some consistency. He also had at least two jams. And plays above the rim on pick and rolls.

I think you'll also find upon closer inspection that Ayton is younger and has a much, much higher ceiling.

Besides, the player I want at center I made a thread about a few weeks back. I'm all about Valanciunas. Give the Pelicans a first or two and a player or two. Dude has been dropping 30 & 10 or better with regularity. He immediately makes us a better team. He brings nasty, has inside, and outside game and is a decent defender.

Poeltl is a known, known. You're gonna get very solid D. You're gonna get a foul prone big. You're gonna get atrocious FT shooting. You're gonna get a decent PnR and unplayable PnP player. You're gonna get a solid player...that has no nasty whatsoever.

[offset formation]

Note, the original post said almost all star level. A center like Gobert is better, but not dramatically so and definitely not when you consider how little Poeltl gets paid in comparison. Its amazing how people will take individual stats out of context in order to on players as if we can't all look at the same stats and see what you leave out. The bottom line is that Poeltl is an excellent member of this team and is on part with Murray as the best asset the Spurs currently posses. Anyone thinking he's not a starter when he's an above average starter is idiotic.

PER is the best, fairest stat inbasketball to judge a player's contributions. It's not a +/- that unfairly is affected by who one plays with. PER encapsulates a player and his overall impact on the game outside of most outside factors other than the players own abilities. If that s reams starter on anything other than on a mediocre team, you're simply not paying attention.

Asof today, Jakob measures below average (23rd to be exact) amongst all centers in the League. Elevating him above that (even to an all-star, lol) because you think or believe your eyes tell you otherwise is the definition of idiocy.

[offset formation]

You know the most damning thing I can say about Poeltl?

Our record over first 7 games with Poeltl: 2-5
Our record over next 7 games w/out Poeltl: 2-5
Our record over last 6 games: 3-3

He is what he is. A solid player. A starter on a mediocre team that plays solid D. Has extremely limited offensive potential with no nasty.

Not sure when that became so loved around here. , LMA caught for more. , LMA at 37, is still better if you use PER. And it's not even super close (2 pts)

[JeffDuncan]

Disingenuous much?

Indeed you are. But enough about you.

Ayton has both inside and outside game, at least out to the FT line extended with some consistency. He also had at least two jams. And plays above the rim on pick and rolls.

And after that rhetoric, Poeltl scored the same number of points as Ayton. How many points is your rhetoric worth?

Poeltl out rebounded Ayton. Btw. Did you notice?

The thing is, rhetoric like that may fill time on tv, or on podcasts, or on the internet, but it’s worthless for scoring points, or getting rebounds, or winning games. But ok, to you it sounds nice. It’s actually meaningless.

If you want to trade for Jonas V, that sounds fine, so go for it, and good luck.

[poopbox]

Indeed you are. But enough about you.




And after that rhetoric, Poeltl scored the same number of points as Ayton. How many points is your rhetoric worth?

Poeltl out rebounded Ayton. Btw. Did you notice?

The thing is, rhetoric like that may fill time on tv, or on podcasts, or on the internet, but it’s worthless for scoring points, or getting rebounds, or winning games. But ok, to you it sounds nice. It’s actually meaningless.

If you want to trade for Jonas V, that sounds fine, so go for it, and good luck.

It's not about the number of points, it's how and when you score them. Poeltl scores because nobody makes any concerted effort to stop his little pop a shot. Out of all the things that are going on during an nba possession, a 7ft guy flipping the ball up from 10 feet with one hand probably doesn't even make the bottom of the list.

Ayton catches lobs, has actual post moves, has an almost average face up jump shot. Do you think if you showed the suns a sheet of paper that shows how similar Poeltl and Ayton stats are you could convince them to trade Ayton for Poeltl? If it's all about numbers on a spreadsheet it would be a no brainer for the suns cause they get a guy who puts up similar numbers to the guy they have for only 9 million a year while the guy they have wants a max contract

[poopbox]

I take Jakob over CWood, tbh. Both because of defensive presence, and because of Wood's at ude problems, he's a complicated guy, I don't care that he shoots 3's, he's not even that efficient at it last time I checked. I absolutely take Jakob over Holmes, no question. But I take Capela over Jakob, due to his athleticism and good hands, he's the perfect lob recipient (though I still point out that the Spurs lack a solid lob thrower in the first place, and would be under-utilizing Capela).

You might take Poeltl over Holmes but do you think another general manager who gets paid millions of dollars to make basketball decisions would? Cause I don't, I think just about all of them take Holmes pretty easily.

I don't think Poeltl is a bad player but there are things that put a cap on how good your team could be and having a center who has no offensive game and no shooting range is a thing that puts a ceiling on your team. He doesn't need to be Austrian Steph Curry but he needs to do better than us not even knowing what his jump shooting form looks like cause he never takes a jumpshot.

[MannyIsGod]

PER is the best, fairest stat inbasketball to judge a player's contributions. It's not a +/- that unfairly is affected by who one plays with. PER encapsulates a player and his overall impact on the game outside of most outside factors other than the players own abilities. If that s reams starter on anything other than on a mediocre team, you're simply not paying attention.

Asof today, Jakob measures below average (23rd to be exact) amongst all centers in the League. Elevating him above that (even to an all-star, lol) because you think or believe your eyes tell you otherwise is the definition of idiocy.

Per is NOT the best stat for this. Especially not for a center who's main contributions come on defense. THe fact that you legit think Aldridge is better than Poeltl based on PER is mind blowing.

[MannyIsGod]

You might take Poeltl over Holmes but do you think another general manager who gets paid millions of dollars to make basketball decisions would? Cause I don't, I think just about all of them take Holmes pretty easily.

I don't think Poeltl is a bad player but there are things that put a cap on how good your team could be and having a center who has no offensive game and no shooting range is a thing that puts a ceiling on your team. He doesn't need to be Austrian Steph Curry but he needs to do better than us not even knowing what his jump shooting form looks like cause he never takes a jumpshot.

I doubt there's many NBA GMs who take Holmes frankly.

[RC_Drunkford]

Poeltl is not the issue. The issues are the forward spots, especially PF

[Chinook]

Chinook ElNono

I've actually been thinking about this recently. Players have definitely adjusted to that kind of close-out and are much more comfortable shooting a three off a reset dribble or an aborted motion. From my perspective this is just part of the change toward shooting threes, just like centers shooting more and players shooting from longer distances. Having to restart the motion used to really drop the percentage. I don't know that it does anymore.

[Drom John]

Wait there are really posters who don't think poeltl is a starting center in the NBA? What in the actual ?


This has got to be the dumbest take in this entire thread filled with stupid takes.

Jakob is playing almost at an all star level and people.post this . Wow.

FiveThirtyEight Raptor WAR Western Conference Centers

1) 4.8 Nikola Jokic
2) 3.6 Rudy Gobert
3) 2.1 Jaren Jackson
4) 1.8 Isaiah Hartenstein, Jusuf Nurkic
6) 1.6 Steven Adams
7) 1.4 Jakob Poeltl

IMO, that a clear NBA starting center, but not almost playing at an all star level.

27) 0.2 Damian Jones, Jock Landale, Boban Marjonovich

41) -0.3 Willie Cauley-Stein, Drew Eubanks, Derrick Favors, Jaxson Hayes, DeAndre Jordan, Daniel Thies, Cody Zeller

[MannyIsGod]

FiveThirtyEight Raptor WAR Western Conference Centers

1) 4.8 Nikola Jokic
2) 3.6 Rudy Gobert
3) 2.1 Jaren Jackson
4) 1.8 Isaiah Hartenstein, Jusuf Nurkic
6) 1.6 Steven Adams
7) 1.4 Jakob Poeltl

IMO, that a clear NBA starting center, but not almost playing at an all star level.

27) 0.2 Damian Jones, Jock Landale, Boban Marjonovich

41) -0.3 Willie Cauley-Stein, Drew Eubanks, Derrick Favors, Jaxson Hayes, DeAndre Jordan, Daniel Thies, Cody Zeller

Use RAPTOR not WAR. There's a reason Jakob is lower on WAR. Hint, what does the W stand for? Raptor he's tied for 5th in the conference. Whether you consider that almost all star or not is subjective, but what is not subjective is the idea that Jakob is a clearly above average starting center in the NBA.

[Sugus]

You might take Poeltl over Holmes but do you think another general manager who gets paid millions of dollars to make basketball decisions would? Cause I don't, I think just about all of them take Holmes pretty easily.

I don't think Poeltl is a bad player but there are things that put a cap on how good your team could be and having a center who has no offensive game and no shooting range is a thing that puts a ceiling on your team. He doesn't need to be Austrian Steph Curry but he needs to do better than us not even knowing what his jump shooting form looks like cause he never takes a jumpshot.

Late reply, sorry.

I dislike the appeal to authority rhethoric; yes, I think many GMs getting paid millions of dollars would take Poeltl, not only because he's better, but also because (or in spite of) GMs aren't necessarily the brightest people on Earth, regardless of how much they get paid. A GM getting paid millions of dollars, too, took Bagley over Doncic, and another one thought the Rockettes could win a ring without any actual Cs on the roster, and yet another thought pairing Westbrook with LeBron was a championship-level move, just to name some recent examples. They're far from infallible, lol.

I have little doubt that Poeltl's offensive woes (which, again, he looks to have been working on, and was doing much better until he got hit with COVID earlier in the season) put a ceiling on the team, but that doesn't mean he's not a good player, starter material, and can get close to AS level play. In the same vein, I could point out things about every Spurs starter that "puts a cap on the team", because at the end of the day, it's a rebuilding team, right...? No MVP candidates on the roster to save us. So it's a weird criticism to make.

And btw, he doesn't need to take jump shots. That's what you want, but not what he needs to do at all - I'd say a stronger post game is a much more meaningful addition. 3pt revolution really ed up players' evaluations, sadly.

[poopbox]

The only person we have on our team to put in size on Gordon is Keldon