Murray is my favorite player, BUT...

[JPB]

Jordan absolutely was. Did people really think Paxson or Kerr were?

B.J Armstrong tho.

[Ice009]

Murray is for sure a better defender and his iq is also higher than Westbrook's who is probably one of the dumbest players ever to play basketball. But he did get that ty OKC team in the playoffs, so i gotta give him that.

Darn, I've must have gotten used to the offensive era as I can't believe I forgot to mention defense (I used to always look at the defensive side of the ball and place a major emphasis on it, sometimes more than offense. This offensive era has really skewed things for me). Dejounte is a very good defender, but since I love defense, I will say, he can still definitely get better on that end of the court. Steals and poking the ball away are great and all, but lockdown man to man defense is a whole other thing, and he can improve in that area. Having said that, he's still way ahead of Westbrook as far as defense goes.

You are right, Russell Westbrook was a beast. I really liked his game years ago, but his decision making a lot of the time was total garbage. The series against the Warriors before KD left, Russell was chucking up bricks, KD was shooting well for stretches of games and Russ wouldn't get him the ball. I loved his aggressiveness as it reminded me of a prime Manu and TP attacking (that's the style of ball I like for my guards - take it to the rim HARD and attack/penetrate), but unfortunately he didn't have the smarts to go with it. He had the talent and athleticism to be even better than he was in his prime. The going after triple doubles I think ruined his game. Instead, he could have spent that time trying to sure up the deficits in his game like shooting, decision making and also to a lesser degree passing. He could have spent time on working on his defense too.

[Leetonidas]

That's a terrible argument granted it is factual but it overlooks that Tony Parker was averging only 16.7 a game on a team where the sum of the parts between him Duncan, Kawhi, Manu were pretty even talent wise. He wasn't head and shoulders the best player on that team. I would say Tim was the best player but it was only by small margin compared to previous le runs.

You usually don't win les when your best player is a typical sized PG.

Irrelevant. OP said "you simply can't win" with a PG as the leading scorer. He was wrong. If he said "usually" that's one thing but he didn't. It's not about TP being better because he obviously wasn't but he was in fact the leading scorer so therefore OP is incorrect.

[RC_Drunkford]

if you want to win a le your big 3 has to consist out of a PG, a wing (SG/SF) and a big (C/PF). That's basically how most le teams are built. I could care less who the top scorer is

[ZeusWillJudge]

You simply can't win with ur point guard being the leading scorer, unless ur PG is like 6'9 or something...

With that said, I think next season if we form an offense around Keldon playing his true position (SF) and Vassel playing SG, Not only will we have 2 dynamic wing scorers, but we will have great wing defense... Both can play off-ball and both can create their own offense... Keldon is big enough to bully opposing SF...

We also need an actual big at PF that can spread the floor... No more tiny players playing out of position...so yes,Murray as a 3rd option would be amazing...with The coming off the bench with his speed and penetration to lead the bench mob

So suppose the Spurs could manage to pry Jalen Brunson away from Dallas in free agency. Never mind whether you think it could happen for now. I'm not going to offer a couple of ways it might happen, because all the screaming would ruin your thread. But Dallas has Doncic and Dinwiddie to distribute.

Would Brunson at the point, Murray at the 2, and Keldon at the 3 make sense to you?

Finding a PF who can really shoot from outside AND be a bully in the middle is probably the holy grail, so getting anyone to let go of one of those is pretty thin. Is there anyone in the draft outside of the Top 4 who you think has that potential?

[Big Empty]

if you want to win a le your big 3 has to consist out of a PG, a wing (SG/SF) and a big (C/PF). That's basically how most le teams are built. I could care less who the top scorer is

Pretty much.

[ZeusWillJudge]

Irrelevant. OP said "you simply can't win" with a PG as the leading scorer. He was wrong. If he said "usually" that's one thing but he didn't. It's not about TP being better because he obviously wasn't but he was in fact the leading scorer so therefore OP is incorrect.

Awww... let's not parse the hyperbole. How about, "This team can't win with Murray at the point AND being the leading scorer?" Triple doubles are sexy, but guys who get a lot of them have a history of not winning in the playoffs.

This season Murray's % of field goals assisted dropped to under 20%. I kind of wonder if Murray's AST load was about half what it was this season if he could be more of a beast scoring and on D, and help the team more overall.

[R. DeMurre]

I think the OP overstated the opinion a bit, but I do agree that being point guard-centric makes winning a championship a little harder than having your best player be 6'6"+, regardless of position. World class PGs of the modern era like Stockton, Nash, & Chris Paul are all ringless, while guys like Giannis, Dirk, Garnett, Kobe, LeBron, Kawhi, KD (and of course Timmy) have all managed les. Curry's an exception of course, but he's also the greatest shooter in the history of the NBA. Parker was a great player, but those teams were still led by the genius of Timmy, and Manu almost always had much better impact stats than Parker. Kyle Lowry was very very good but always came up short in the playoffs until Kawhi showed up and became the #1 option.

[daslicer]

Well, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Allen Iverson (didn't win it all but who litterally brought his team to the Finals by himself), Steph Curry... , you could argue Jordan and Lebron were Bulls and Cavs real PGs.

AI didn't bring the Sixers to the finals by himself. It was a 2 man show with him and Dikembe. AI provided the offense and Dikembe was the superstar on the defensive end. AI never lead a team to deep playoff run after '01 so it was short lived.

Lebron and Jordan were both above 6'3 which tends to be the case for teams that win les their best player on average tends to be 6'6 or taller. Curry and Isiah were the exceptions to this rule.

[R. DeMurre]

Isiah Thomas won over 30 years ago, and Iverson never won. Using those guys as examples works better to prove the PG theory than it does to refute it.

Here's another way to look at it-- since 2000, these point guards have been MVPs: Iverson (some argue he's a SG), Steve Nash, Derrick Rose, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook, James Harden. Only one of those guys has won a championship, and he's the best shooter in NBA history.

Here are the other MVPs since 2000: Shaq, Timmy, Garnett, Nowitzki, Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Giannis, Jokic. Every single guy here except Jokic has a championship, and five of them have multiple les.

Since 2000, there have been 2 finals MVPs who were PGs: Billups and Parker. The other 20 were non-PGs, and all were 6'6" or over except for D Wade.

[Dejounte]

There’s really no concern over Murray being the center of the offense when he’s shown a willingness to share the ball with others. He isn’t a “hold the ball until there’s 5 seconds left”type player. Murray is incredibly unselfish and has taken responsibility of being the go to guy in the clutch this season out of necessity. You want him to get those reps because once the day does come, he will be able to help carry the load when the other guy is being doubled or doesn’t have it that night.

[JPB]

Isiah Thomas won over 30 years ago, and Iverson never won. Using those guys as examples works better to prove the PG theory than it does to refute it.

Here's another way to look at it-- since 2000, these point guards have been MVPs: Iverson (some argue he's a SG), Steve Nash, Derrick Rose, Steph Curry, Russell Westbrook, James Harden. Only one of those guys has won a championship, and he's the best shooter in NBA history.

Here are the other MVPs since 2000: Shaq, Timmy, Garnett, Nowitzki, Kobe, LeBron, Durant, Giannis, Jokic. Every single guy here except Jokic has a championship, and five of them have multiple les.

Since 2000, there have been 2 finals MVPs who were PGs: Billups and Parker. The other 20 were non-PGs, and all were 6'6" or over except for D Wade.

I give you the size argument but Lebron, Kobe, Giannis and Jokic have been the real PGs in all their le teams (or not le). "PG" is just a position name, when you're the guy who has the ball in hand most of the time and make the plays, you're the PG, Point Forward or point Center who cares...

Who was the real Lakers point? Derek Fisher, Smush n' Parker or Kobe Bryant? We should actually talk about "playmaker" rather than "PG".

[rankingtear]

It is size rather than role. Small guards gets hunted defensively. DJ is a big guard though and very compe ive defender.

[Biggems]

It is very rare to have your PG be your leading scorer. Their job is to get others the ball in the best possible position to score. very few PGs have ever been the leading scorer of their team, much less a championship team.

Isiah Thomas led the Pistons in scoring during their first championship. Dantley was leading the team in scoring by 0.2 ppg, but he was traded halfway through the season. Then, the next season, Zeke did it again. He was only averaged just over 18 in both seasons. It was a different era, but yes it was done in back to back years.

[Biggems]

Well, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Allen Iverson (didn't win it all but who litterally brought his team to the Finals by himself), Steph Curry... , you could argue Jordan and Lebron were Bulls and Cavs real PGs.

was Magic ever the leading scorer on his team? I know they won in 88, but Byron Scott was the leading scorer.

[R. DeMurre]

I give you the size argument but Lebron, Kobe, Giannis and Jokic have been the real PGs in all their le teams (or not le). "PG" is just a position name, when you're the guy who has the ball in hand most of the time and make the plays, you're the PG, Point Forward or point Center who cares...

Who was the real Lakers point? Derek Fisher, Smush n' Parker or Kobe Bryant? We should actually talk about "playmaker" rather than "PG".

Right, but those great players capable of running the offense at critical times still benefitted from having a good PG who wasn't the #1 option. Denver was better with Jamal Murray healthy, and Kobe won les with Fisher but didn't with Smush. But this kinda ties into the 6'6" or taller theory, doesn't it? Teams can be great when LeBron or Giannis or Magic start taking over the primary ballhandling responsibilities, but they also benefit from times when those guys play PF or small ball center. A 6'2" PG doesn't have that ability.

[ZeusWillJudge]

LOL. This is why you can't even have this discussion.

Who was the very first Finals MVP? A: Jerry West. A PG who led the team in PPG.

Magic Johnson won his first Finals MVP in 1980. Pretty much everyone (especially here) insists that Magic was the Lakers PG. But that team had a 6'2" PG named Norm Nixon. Don't try to say he was a sub - Nixon averaged 39.3 MPG that season, compared to 36.3 for Magic.

"Well... but Magic was the distributor for the team. He facilitated all the offense." Mmmm, not exactly. Nixon averaged 7.8.AST per game that season, compared to 7.3 AST for Magic. Better still, Nixon's AST% was 25.3, compared to 25.2 for Magic. Almost all of the time Magic was on the floor, Nixon was also on the floor - and Nixon actually dished a slightly higher percentage of the team's AST's. Very, very slightly - but you get the point. Not only that, but Nixon's TO% was 17.9, while Magic's was 20.9. Magic's TRB% was 11.6 compared to 3.9 for Nixon. Which one of those sounds most like a point guard?

The fact is, that 1980 Laker team had a PG, and it wasn't Magic Johnson - no matter what "they" say. But Nixon was the fourth leading scorer on that team. Magic was the third leading scorer. A couple of seasons later, all those stats flipped, and Magic dished a few more AST's than Nixon. But Nixon was still the team's PG.

For the record, a couple of years earlier the Celtics won the Championship. The Finals MVP was JoJo White - a point guard, and he scored the most points in the whole playoffs that year. During the regular season he was a virtual tie with Dave Cowans for most points.

None of that changes the OP's point that winning it all with the PG being the team's leading scorer is very unlikely (even if it isn't "impossible"). Murray has become a very good player, but he's no Magic Johnson.

[duncan2k5]

Ja Morant. Allen Iverson. Donovan Mitc . Probably a hundred more examples out there.

Sometimes I'm confused as to whether duncan2k5 is a troll or if his takes are real.

AI and Mitc are SGs... What did Morant ever win?

[duncan2k5]

You ever heard of Steph Curry or Tony Parker?

Well ur right... But when I said that I was more talking about point guards that are ball dominant/need the ball in their hands... Parker was NOT ball dominant, and Steph can play off ball... But even with Steph, he has never won finals MVP, and his play always dropped in the finals

[duncan2k5]

1) What have those guys won?

2) Since when is Mitc a PG?

He is an idiot... Ignore him

[duncan2k5]

duncan2K5 said win, he didn't say championships.

RC_Drunkford already said Curry and Parker as two champion examples.



Positionless basketball really nullifies any sort of argument about the height of your point guard and whether he leads the team in scoring.

What the else would I mean when I say win?

[duncan2k5]

Well, Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Allen Iverson (didn't win it all but who litterally brought his team to the Finals by himself), Steph Curry... , you could argue Jordan and Lebron were Bulls and Cavs real PGs.

I said or unless ur PG is 6'9... Magic and Bron are 6'9... AI wasn't a PG and he didn't win... MJ isn't a PG obviously

[duncan2k5]

Irrelevant. OP said "you simply can't win" with a PG as the leading scorer. He was wrong. If he said "usually" that's one thing but he didn't. It's not about TP being better because he obviously wasn't but he was in fact the leading scorer so therefore OP is incorrect.

Ok... And? What's ur conclusion? That we will win a ring with Murray as our best player?

[duncan2k5]

So suppose the Spurs could manage to pry Jalen Brunson away from Dallas in free agency. Never mind whether you think it could happen for now. I'm not going to offer a couple of ways it might happen, because all the screaming would ruin your thread. But Dallas has Doncic and Dinwiddie to distribute.

Would Brunson at the point, Murray at the 2, and Keldon at the 3 make sense to you?

Finding a PF who can really shoot from outside AND be a bully in the middle is probably the holy grail, so getting anyone to let go of one of those is pretty thin. Is there anyone in the draft outside of the Top 4 who you think has that potential?

I don't think Murray would be a good 2 guard... He would lose his size advantage, and he is too thin and can't shoot well enough to consistently play off ball... And I don't think Brunson is good enough to be the starting Pg on a championship team unless u have a generational talent as ur best player

[JPB]

I said or unless ur PG is 6'9... Magic and Bron are 6'9... AI wasn't a PG and he didn't win... MJ isn't a PG obviously

He was, obvioulsy. Watch all his finals and tell me who has the balls in hand and make the plays most of the time (with Pippen)... Then watch Steve Kerr, John Paxson or B.J Armstrong and tell me what they do besides getting the ball up the court then giving it to MJ or Pippen before standing in the corner for the occasional three?

Then tell me who averaged the more assists between Jordan and all these guys who were just PG by names. It's not even close.