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Sorry... Miami I was talking about Shaq and LA it was Kareem. Both of them were mad as when they forced the trades.
IDK, I remember their biggest screwup being Gund thinking he could get Boozer to sign a lowball long term deal and tearing up his rookie contract and then Boozer flipping the script on him and getting way more money in Utah.
Sorry... Miami I was talking about Shaq and LA it was Kareem. Both of them were mad as when they forced the trades.
Your not trading for 5 years to win a le your trading for a year or 2. Stars do not stay with the team unless it is the team that drafted them and even that is getting less. When they are traded even if it is the team of their choice they are ready to move on if they do not win. If they dont move on they want someone else to come in and usually a big name to move on. AKA first it was AD, then needed Westbrook then no he hurt them had to move on. now they need someone else. Boston got KI and KD then got harden then did not want harden so moved him for BS. then they blew it up. Philly built up a team and wanted to go all in. Got tobias harris and then move simmons for harden. Now harden might be moving on and am starting to rumblings about Embid. Clippers traded everything to get george so they could get kawhi. Now that is not working out and trying to figure out which to move.
The point is you can either try and make a flash and end up being nothing or you can try and build up a team that enjoy playing together. Why did tony tim and manu stay together was because they liked each other. Yes winning helped but they also grew up together. Yes they all looked at leaving at different time but they stayed together. Look at the heat this year is mad u of mostly nobodys but they are in the championship. There are so many examples of teams going for the flash that fail and more examples that show building a team is the way to go. Not saying building will guarantee a chip but I think the odds are better then going for the flashy win.
Hard to expect the Spurs to draft another Parker and another Ginobili even if they were picking #1 another two years. Parker was about an imbalance in how teams evaluated overseas prospects back then and Manu was just blind luck, a guy they picked because he hit a bunch of threes in a game in Argentina when the Spurs were scouting someone else so they swung wildly with a throw-away pick and hit a grand slam.
And honestly the Spurs got really lucky on the Tony pick too. Boston really wanted him but seemed to have talked themselves out of drafting him at the last second and the Spurs were desperately trying to trade up to land him and failed but he fell into their lap at #28.
With the Shaq trade I had forgotten about that one. Once again though your showing stars getting upset with one another and then one moving on. I think the trade was only a pick and 2 decent players (butler and Odem) This is a lot less then what is given up now. 4 1st and a few pick swaps plus young players. If it doesnt work you are out for a decade. back then if it did not work you could recover in a few years. The lakers trade that you mentioned was so long ago the league is different then it was then. Even the shaq trade is different then now but closer.
Why yes the spurs have not drafted anyone good late in the draft recently. lets just forget DJM, Keldon, White. Not saying they will continue to draft this well but they still show to find solid players. How much better would they have been with tim/Wimby. Would they have drafted that well if they were higher or would they have picked someone that did not work out Primo/Luka/Lonnie.
None of them is anywhere close to Tony or Manu who gave the Spurs that extended le window after the team looked too old with the 99-00 rule changes. It's so unrealistic to expect the Spurs to ever put that kind of team together again, especially through the draft. Do you think Murray, Keldon, or White is going to the Hall of Fame? Of all fanbases I can't believe Spurs fans would underrate how special of a core that was.
Saw an interview with Boozer the other day where he claims that the league knew about the Gund offer and that he literally couldn't sign with the Cavs or they would have gotten slammed for tampering like the Timberwolves did. It was a convincing story.
The Spurs have drafted well. But I think his point was don't hold your breath for them, or any other team, to get two hall of famers at the end of the first and the end of the second two years apart.
As exstatic said, I'm just talking about this summer. Having a clear picture of what Spurs should/could do at the 2024 trade deadline and beyond is just impossible. Spurs' FO and Pop will need to evaluate first how good most of their players are.
The Nuggets and OKC just made a trade (which I didn't know was possible, that's cool).
NUGGETS GET:
- Least favorable of OKC's 2024 FRP's (they have their own, Houston protected 1-4, LAC unprotected, Utah protected 1-10)
- #37 overall in 2023 draft
- OKC's 2024 SRP
THUNDER GET:
- Protected 2029 FRP from DEN (protections not yet announced)
For those who think that the CHA pick has some value, this illustrated just what kind of value it might have. The Least Favorable OKC 2024 pick is SIGNIFICANTLY MORE valuable than the CHA Pick because a) it is guaranteed to convey and 2) it could be as high as Pick #2*. OKC had to give up this plus two SRP's to get a protected FRP 5 years down the road. The pick OKC is giving up is not a nothing pick, but they were forced to sell low because they have so many picks.
Biggest takeaway for me: you have to be careful not to end up in a position where you have to sell low because you have too many picks.
*For the pick DEN got to end up #2, it would require that OKC, LAC, HOU ended up with a Top 4 pick in 2024, and UTAH to get a Top 10 pick. If OKC and LAC ended up 1-2 (doesn't matter what order), then the #2 pick would be the least favorable.
It's not going to be pick #2. It's not going to be a lottery pick. The only advantage that it has is the sure conveyance.
Charlotte has to make the playoffs if they want to make LaMelo happy. They have to. I'm 90% sure that pick conveys in the next 2 years, and if it does, it will probably be the same or better than the pick from OKC. If just one of those teams makes the playoffs as a high seed next year, the pick will be in the mid to late 20s, something I have a hard time seeing the Charlotte pick being. There's a reason that Denver insisted on that #37 pick, and it's because they know that the odds are overwhelming that the FRP pick for 2024 is going to be a crap late first rounder.
The Denver trade is to me, an indication that there is a chance of arbitrage in value if other teams are in a different window. While there is the potential that the 2024 pick is really valuable, that's at most about a 3% chance IF the Clippers and the Thunder are the worst teams in the league, and the lottery balls go chalk.
Teams at different stages have different reasons for trades. Denver is clearly looking to maximise their current window, have some cheap bets on depth pieces (more shooting wings!!!), OKC is looking to have options for depth down the line, and the more distant a pick is, the more likely a team falls down completely and it could become valuable (I mean, I think Joker is probably still going to be a top 10 guy in 2029, so they probably won't be terrible) but I get the logic.
If the Spurs could package a number of their upcoming seconds to get a lightly protected first down the road when Wemby is on contract #2 and we need more depth, I'd be interested. E.g, would the Warriors (in cap , have a demonstrated recent inability to up high picks) trade a top 5 protected pick 2028 pick for the Charlotte pick, one of the seconds next year (e.g, the Better of the Chicago / New Orleans pick (I'd guess 37 ish), and the Chicago 2nd in the 2025 draft (Probably 40ish)?
If we could, I'd prefer to move up in this draft (Similar idea, leverage another teams cap dreams and need for depth with assets like the package above and taking on some stinker contracts, like how the Pistons got Duren last year), but that depends on the price.
cavs went all in? lebron's best teammates during his first cleveland stint were ilgauksas and mo williams
Well said..
I find your response interesting, because it dismisses a lot of possibilities on one hand while making a handful of assumptions on the other.
Is it likely that the OKC 24 pick going to Denver will be #2? No, as it would require a pretty phenomenal set of cir stances (that I outlined above).
But let's talk about it being a lottery pick. For this pick to be a lottery pick next year, it wouldn't require that much difference in outcomes than what happened this season. OKC was a play-in team that got bounced into the Lottery. The Clippers finished *one game* ahead of the play-in. They also got demolished in the first round, and it's not too outrageous to think they could have been bounced from the play-in round. If that scenario played out next season, OKC would be sending DEN a lottery pick. (This would also been the doomsday scenario for OKC, because the Houston and Utah picks would remain protected and OKC would be left with only their own pick next year, which might not actually be that bad of a scenario for them, but it leaves them with the least amount of assets in 2024).
Even if last season played out exactly again next season, OKC would be sending Denver pick #20, leaving a pretty slim window for the CHA to convey as a better pick. I don't see LAC as a team on the rise, with the questionable reliability of their two stars and cap troubles on the horizon with the new CBA. OKC, on the other hand, should be making a push the playoffs next season. However, an SGA injury could derail all of that and it it is not at all out of the reasonable range of outcomes that a lotto pick would be headed to DEN. I certainly don't think there is a strong likelihood that any of the 4 teams are a high seed next year, but you never know.
I'm surprised OKC made this deal now because going into 2024, all 4 of those picks have the potential to be pretty valuable. There is a realistic scenario where OKC could have ended up with 4 lotto picks next year, which wild. Alas, 4 picks is definitely too much weight to carry with an already young roster, and it is apparent that carrying so many FRPs into a single season diminishes the leverage OKC has because teams know they have to be a seller at some point.
I *think* (and I apologize if I'm mistaken) I've heard you say on this board that you wouldn't give up the TOR pick next year for a pick in the low teens because Toronto's pick *could* be as high as 7 next year. It could also be as low as 30. The right way to evaluate the value is based on the realistic probability of where these picks could fall, and upside matters. I wouldn't trade the TOR pick for pick #20 this year, but I would easily trade it for pick #11.
The pick going to DEN next year is SIGNIFICANTLY better than the CHA pick right now because 1) it is guaranteed to convey and 2) it has significantly more upside than the CHA pick. Even if there is only a 5% chance it is a lotto pick, the CHA pick has 0% chance of being one. I understand reasons to be optimistic that the CHA pick will convey, but I definitely would not pin those odds at 90%. Right now, I'd probably say it's more like 50-50, largely dependent on what decisions they make in the draft. If I were CHA I'd seriously be thinking about sending Melo to POR for #3 and Simons if POR would do it. But even taking Scoot or Miller I don't think makes them a playoff team this season, maybe next season but I still wouldn't call them a shoe-in.
^ as someone noted above, i do think there is a “dilution effect” of having too many picks in close annual proximity of each other. It’s important to have a consolidation strategy or to ready to draft all of them.
I feel SRPs are mostly to enrich the owners. Like as a fan who cares about all those SRPs we got for Richardson tbh? But as an owner that’s like 2-3m a piece in a fire sale.
I think part of what made Tony and manu so good was the team they were on. Yes they were good individually but what made them great was playing as a team and willing to sacrifice for the team.
If Murray was on a better team and was more mature then yes I could see him reaching those levels. He already has one all star and might get more in his career. I dont think he will have the National team wins like manu or tp but he could get more All stars. He is just hitting his peak but how a team does effects what we think of the player.
I understand what he is trying to say but back then no one thought they were good either. It is more about building a team. That is why so many of these star pairing fail is because they have such big egos. Look at who is in the finals. Jokic 2nd rd, Bam 14th pick, Butler 30th pick, Murry is a little higher at 7th pick.
More sarcastic side, I know these were all a few years ago and only thing that matters is what is going forward. They have perfected the draft and now every player picked will turn out to be exactly where they should have been picked. When they do mock redrafts they will decide every player was picked at the right spot.
There are steals found every year and it will be the job of the FO to find them.
We can't fully analyze the OKC/Denver trade until protections are disclosed. Knowing Presti's history and mindset, I find it next to impossible he didn't include some sort of protection on that "worse of ..." pick to prevent some blunder from happening. Also it's not the same if the protections on Denver's pick are top 4, top 10, or flat out lottery protected. Jury is out on the deal until the full info comes out.
Either way, it's a great move for Denver. They have the world's best player, a very good PG, and a few solid role players, and now they have four shots ( 1 FRP, 3 SRP) in the next two drafts at getting a couple more contributors to depth on very inexpensive contracts. Calvin Booth is maximizing their potential now, which is smart. If Jokic stays healthy, he could be a great 34 yr old player in the tradition of Duncan and Kareem, and that pick could easily be a #25-30.
They didn't pick him just out of this game... Manu already caught RC's attention in 1997 during the U22 World Cup Argentina won. And he kept an eye on him until the 1999 draft. The guy they were supposedly coming to see in Argentina may have been typical spurs smoke screen to hide Manu.
They didn't really want to pick anyone. They tried to get rid of the pick. They would probably tell you that the reason they picked Manu is because they didn't want another body gumming up the roster. Not even sure what would have happened if he had tried to come over.
Manu wasn't drafted out of a game where he hit a bunch of 3s in Argentina, you're right about that. But Argentina didn't win that U22 championship either, we came in 4th, but that was the foundation for the wildly successful NT that won gold in the Olympics and got silver in the WC. RC was scouting that tournament, and the players drawing most attention were Lucas Victoriano and Fabricio Oberto. But RC contacted the coaching staff asking for references about Manu. Then they started following him, and ended up drafting him in '99 with an almost worthless 57th pick, so clearly it wasn't like they knew what he'd become. But they took a chance on him, and Manu blew up in Italy after he was drafted and stayed there until '02 winning pretty much everything.
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