2023-2024 NBA trade deadline

[ambchang]

The more I look at it the more i think it’s not PATFO letting the players figure things out, it’s actually PATFO trying to figure things out. There are obvious solutions to the short term fix but that would limit the ceiling of the team.

Over the years we have learned that SA is not a FA haven, and there are no giant local TV deals or endorsement opportunities to bankroll the team and players. The best and safest way to go about is to build on your assets through drafts and trades. I think we can all agree on that.

What PATFO seems to be doing now is that they have no idea they have on their hands. Players like keldon, Tre and Vassell are comparatively traditional and typical talents. Not to say they are not good, just that they have dozens of previous and existing prototypes of similar players. Zach has unique strengths but also glaring weaknesses. Wemby is a unicorn, sochan is relatively unique in his game. Somewhere between a Simmons and a green, who may pan out to be better than either in their primes if developed properly. Braham has potential but is severely undeveloped and Wesley is even further still. PATFO is observing and seeing what raw talents are available on the roster right now and look to shape and develop accordingly, at least that is what it seems to me.

Not going to lie, this is extremely infuriating to watch and I think if PATFO is willing to go onto a safer and more traditional route (Tre at PG, wemby at c, collins at PF, sochan as 6th man), coach the basics in how to defend the three, how to do a simple entry pass, park wemby at the high post, etc… they can be a 40 win team this season. But then what? A jump from 30 wins to 40 wins isn’t that hard. Going from 40 to 50, then to 60 and le contention gets progressively harder. If PATFO goes with conventional wisdom and just put incremental pieces around, they may never win a le, but if they were to observe and build an optimal system around the strengths of the current team, while continuing to add to it, they are looking to build a dynasty.

It’s not just the players learning. It’s PATFO learning.

[TDomination]

The more I look at it the more i think it’s not PATFO letting the players figure things out, it’s actually PATFO trying to figure things out. There are obvious solutions to the short term fix but that would limit the ceiling of the team.

Over the years we have learned that SA is not a FA haven, and there are no giant local TV deals or endorsement opportunities to bankroll the team and players. The best and safest way to go about is to build on your assets through drafts and trades. I think we can all agree on that.

What PATFO seems to be doing now is that they have no idea they have on their hands. Players like keldon, Tre and Vassell are comparatively traditional and typical talents. Not to say they are not good, just that they have dozens of previous and existing prototypes of similar players. Zach has unique strengths but also glaring weaknesses. Wemby is a unicorn, sochan is relatively unique in his game. Somewhere between a Simmons and a green, who may pan out to be better than either in their primes if developed properly. Braham has potential but is severely undeveloped and Wesley is even further still. PATFO is observing and seeing what raw talents are available on the roster right now and look to shape and develop accordingly, at least that is what it seems to me.

Not going to lie, this is extremely infuriating to watch and I think if PATFO is willing to go onto a safer and more traditional route (Tre at PG, wemby at c, collins at PF, sochan as 6th man), coach the basics in how to defend the three, how to do a simple entry pass, park wemby at the high post, etc… they can be a 40 win team this season. But then what? A jump from 30 wins to 40 wins isn’t that hard. Going from 40 to 50, then to 60 and le contention gets progressively harder. If PATFO goes with conventional wisdom and just put incremental pieces around, they may never win a le, but if they were to observe and build an optimal system around the strengths of the current team, while continuing to add to it, they are looking to build a dynasty.

It’s not just the players learning. It’s PATFO learning.

Interesting take. The most likely scenario is this. They know that Tre is not the PG of the future so thats why they went another route.
It perplexes me as to why its sochan though. What did they see in his game that makes them think PG?

But how do they plan for the future while not destroying the present? Losing in embarrassing fashion is no bueno for business nor for fan interest. And especially no good for trying to properly groom your future star player.

Something as simple as having Tre Jones as starter and having Sochan be PG when Jones goes to the bench.
That way its not all the time and it allows Sochan to do it against the other teams 2nd stringer.

The gameplan just doesn't make sense. I'm all for the future but man you can't trash the present either.

[Big Empty]

When is it time to extend Wemby? We have until that year for him to be excited about being in San Antonio because whether we can match or not, if he wants out the Spurs will honor it and thats that. They know that, i expect them to figure it out and get extremely aggressive in trades by the deadline or this summer.

[scott]

Sure, another young player with potential who’s a lousy defender would fit the Spurs perfectly exactly as they are, especially when the team needs a point guard and he isn’t one. Great choice.

Sure, let's go after the 30-year old "PG" who averaged a whopping 2.8 APG the year you cite as him "100% playing PG".

As for Caruso not really being a lead guard, he’s a uva lot closer to that than Sochan is

I agree with this, but as much as Caruso is closer to a lead guard than Sochan, Ivey is closer to being one than Caruso.

The more I read your posts, the more I wonder if you've suffered some sort of brain damage.

[JeffDuncan]

Sure, let's go after the 30-year old "PG" who …

Who is actually a pg and who was named to the All-Defensive team last season. Sure, no reason a team that’s horrible on defense and that needs a point guard would ever want a player like that.

Are you brain damaged?

[Vince Carter's ankle]

Who is actually a pg and who was named to the All-Defensive team last season. Sure, no reason a team that’s horrible on defense and that needs a point guard would ever want a player like that.

Are you brain damaged?

why do the spurs need to improve their defense?
are they trying to make the playoffs?
or maybe pop wants a true point guard in the starting lineup?

[mo7888]

If Jaden Ivey becomes available Spurs should be all in. Perfect fit for need and timeline. I'd offer the Bulls pick for Ivey right now.

I seriously doubt that's enough to get a conversation started.

[scott]

Who is actually a pg and who was named to the All-Defensive team last season. Sure, no reason a team that’s horrible on defense and that needs a point guard would ever want a player like that.

Are you brain damaged?

Not sure if you've noticed, not only does our team suck at defense, it also sucks at offense. Caruso would be a nice addition on defense (-0.1 ORaptor, +6.1 DRaptor last season) but would be a worse option than Tre Jones (+1.2 ORaptor, +0.7 DRaptor last season) on offense.

We can agree our historically terrible defense needs improvement, but the PG position's biggest detriment to the team right now is how it is stunting the offensive development of the team.

[Leetonidas]

Idk, the whole PATFO not being sure what they have thing sounds like a cop out. I mean they had all of last season and seasons prior with some of these guys to figure out what they have. How do they not know it by now? Aside from Osman who is a vet, Victor is the only new addition. it just makes them sound incredibly incompetent to not know what they have at this point. I don't think any other team in the league would be doing this bull .. 29 other teams would put a real ing PG next to victor.

[rjv]

Idk, the whole PATFO not being sure what they have thing sounds like a cop out. I mean they had all of last season and seasons prior with some of these guys to figure out what they have. How do they not know it by now? Aside from Osman who is a vet, Victor is the only new addition. it just makes them sound incredibly incompetent to not know what they have at this point. I don't think any other team in the league would be doing this bull .. 29 other teams would put a real ing PG next to victor.

perhaps, but not surrounding a generational talent with a decent PG is not unprecedented. when lebron was a rookie, he had trash like kellin ollie on his roster and jordan had wes matthews. granted, they were guards that took over the ball handling duties but wemby isn't really a traditional big who plays more outside the paint that in it.

[Leetonidas]

perhaps, but not surrounding a generational talent with a decent PG is not unprecedented. when lebron was a rookie, he had trash like kellin ollie on his roster and jordan had wes matthews. granted, they were guards that took over the ball handling duties but wemby isn't really a traditional big who plays more outside the paint that in it.

Yeah but LeBron is a natural ball handler and a point forward. And the Cavaliers were an incompetent franchise that completely failed LeBron in his first stint there and routinely surrounded him with garbage and washed up has beens. Not sure using them as a comparison is a great analog especially considering LeBron ditched them because of their inep ude

[scott]

Idk, the whole PATFO not being sure what they have thing sounds like a cop out. I mean they had all of last season and seasons prior with some of these guys to figure out what they have. How do they not know it by now? Aside from Osman who is a vet, Victor is the only new addition. it just makes them sound incredibly incompetent to not know what they have at this point. I don't think any other team in the league would be doing this bull .. 29 other teams would put a real ing PG next to victor.

If we even go back in time to look at the Spurs own history of landing generational bigmen:

In 1989, we acquired Mo Cheeks (and Terry mings in addition to drafting Sean Elliott) to put together team that had promising youth (Robinson, Elliott, and promising 2nd year man Willie Anderson) coupled with two key vets (Cheeks, mings). To get Cheeks, the Spurs had to give up Johnny Dawkins, who averaged 14p/7a just the year prior in his third season and 16/7 the year before. On paper, the only think Cheeks provided over Dawkins was experience and maybe a slight upgrade on defense. The FO knew then that it needed to surround it's young core with solid vets. Of course, Cheeks didn't work out and was eventually traded for Rod Strickland.

In 1997, the Spurs trotted out Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro as the starting backcourt next to Duncan, Robinson and Elliott. This was a unique situation since the team was pretty much already established and it was injuries (and maybe a little tanking) that landed Duncan. But once again, the Spurs didn't surround Timmy with an inexperienced point guard.

What they are doing here with Victor seems really unprecedented and borderline negligent. I get it, we are young, we are rebuilding slowly. They didn't need to go all in like they did in getting Cheeks and mings (two multiple time all-stars, and recent all-stars at that. Cheeks was one season removed from his last AS selection and mings made it the year prior and probably deserved to make it his first year with the Spurs), but to go full in on a completely inexperienced team and starting line up deserves to be called out and questioned.

[rjv]

Yeah but LeBron is a natural ball handler and a point forward. And the Cavaliers were an incompetent franchise that completely failed LeBron in his first stint there and routinely surrounded him with garbage and washed up has beens. Not sure using them as a comparison is a great analog especially considering LeBron ditched them because of their inep ude

because the cavs never added the necessary pieces after a few years, not games. the bulls, on the other hand, made sure to build around jordan.

[rjv]

If we even go back in time to look at the Spurs own history of landing generational bigmen:

In 1989, we acquired Mo Cheeks (and Terry mings in addition to drafting Sean Elliott) to put together team that had promising youth (Robinson, Elliott, and promising 2nd year man Willie Anderson) coupled with two key vets (Cheeks, mings). To get Cheeks, the Spurs had to give up Johnny Dawkins, who averaged 14p/7a just the year prior in his third season and 16/7 the year before. On paper, the only think Cheeks provided over Dawkins was experience and maybe a slight upgrade on defense. The FO knew then that it needed to surround it's young core with solid vets. Of course, Cheeks didn't work out and was eventually traded for Rod Strickland.

In 1997, the Spurs trotted out Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro as the starting backcourt next to Duncan, Robinson and Elliott. This was a unique situation since the team was pretty much already established and it was injuries (and maybe a little tanking) that landed Duncan. But once again, the Spurs didn't surround Timmy with an inexperienced point guard.

What they are doing here with Victor seems really unprecedented and borderline negligent. I get it, we are young, we are rebuilding slowly. They didn't need to go all in like they did in getting Cheeks and mings (two multiple time all-stars, and recent all-stars at that. Cheeks was one season removed from his last AS selection and mings made it the year prior and probably deserved to make it his first year with the Spurs), but to go full in on a completely inexperienced team and starting line up deserves to be called out and questioned.

i'd have to get a better grasp on what the cap worked like back then before making any comparisons. also, David was 24 when he came into the NBA, not 19. and if we looked at the options that were available last summer in the FA class, who could the spurs have realistically gone after that would have been a nice fit for Wemby? i would've been pissed if they had given van vleet $40 million. if the spurs roll back the same roster next season, i'll scratch my head but i'm pretty certain that's not the plan. this roster and the lineup will look different next season.

[Leetonidas]

because the cavs never added the necessary pieces after a few years, not games. the bulls, on the other hand, made sure to build around jordan.

All I'm asking for is an actual PG my man. I don't think asking the FO to give their generational big man an actual PG to run the offense is too much to ask for. It doesn't need to be an all-star. Id settle for Ish Smith at this point

[J_Paco]

perhaps, but not surrounding a generational talent with a decent PG is not unprecedented. when lebron was a rookie, he had trash like kellin ollie on his roster and jordan had wes matthews. granted, they were guards that took over the ball handling duties but wemby isn't really a traditional big who plays more outside the paint that in it.

Shaq had Scott Skiles as his starting PG during his rookie season.

[rjv]

Shaq had Scott Skiles as his starting PG during his rookie season.

yeah, shaq had a solid PG. that's why i didn't mention him. : )

[rjv]

All I'm asking for is an actual PG my man. I don't think asking the FO to give their generational big man an actual PG to run the offense is too much to ask for. It doesn't need to be an all-star. Id settle for Ish Smith at this point

yeah, it's painful. that PG is not going to be in the 2024 FA class though. we're either getting one in the draft or via a trade.

[exstatic]

If we even go back in time to look at the Spurs own history of landing generational bigmen:

In 1989, we acquired Mo Cheeks (and Terry mings in addition to drafting Sean Elliott) to put together team that had promising youth (Robinson, Elliott, and promising 2nd year man Willie Anderson) coupled with two key vets (Cheeks, mings). To get Cheeks, the Spurs had to give up Johnny Dawkins, who averaged 14p/7a just the year prior in his third season and 16/7 the year before. On paper, the only think Cheeks provided over Dawkins was experience and maybe a slight upgrade on defense. The FO knew then that it needed to surround it's young core with solid vets. Of course, Cheeks didn't work out and was eventually traded for Rod Strickland.

In 1997, the Spurs trotted out Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro as the starting backcourt next to Duncan, Robinson and Elliott. This was a unique situation since the team was pretty much already established and it was injuries (and maybe a little tanking) that landed Duncan. But once again, the Spurs didn't surround Timmy with an inexperienced point guard.

What they are doing here with Victor seems really unprecedented and borderline negligent. I get it, we are young, we are rebuilding slowly. They didn't need to go all in like they did in getting Cheeks and mings (two multiple time all-stars, and recent all-stars at that. Cheeks was one season removed from his last AS selection and mings made it the year prior and probably deserved to make it his first year with the Spurs), but to go full in on a completely inexperienced team and starting line up deserves to be called out and questioned.

If anything,1989 serves to support the current position. They traded a young All D, All NBA, All Star guard for Terry mings,who lasted 3 seasons before blowing his knee out and being completely washed. They traded Dawkins for the vet Cheeks who forced his way out, and was traded for another youngster in Strickland. Imagine if they don’t do the mings trade, and Cheeks is still unhappy and they move on Strickland.

C Robinson
SF Elliott
SG Robertson
PG Strickland

Then, you either keep Cadillac or Greenwood from the previous year as a PF.

Doing what they did kind of blew up in their faces, and they didn’t recover from that until Duncan.

I remember discussions of Kawhi, and Pop thinking he was kind of a super Bowen. He pretty much missed that one, and I don’t want him missing on this one by making assumptions about what Wemby is. I’m fine with dumping this season, getting a handle on things, and another high pick.

[scott]

i'd have to get a better grasp on what the cap worked like back then before making any comparisons. also, David was 24 when he came into the NBA, not 19. and if we looked at the options that were available last summer in the FA class, who could the spurs have realistically gone after that would have been a nice fit for Wemby? i would've been pissed if they had given van vleet $40 million. if the spurs roll back the same roster next season, i'll scratch my head but i'm pretty certain that's not the plan. this roster and the lineup will look different next season.

Agree with all your saying here for sure.

One thing on David being 24... I think we often look at this like "yeah of course he came in and was immediately an All NBA player". But this was a time when everyone stayed in college for 4 years, and then he didn't play compe ively for two years before joining the team while he fulfilled his commitment to Navy. So he was still a pretty typical rookie, just like Wemby is a pretty typical rookie (age wise). However, it is a good point of why we didn't go "all in" like we did for David (though I'd argue we didn't really go all-in, we were still starting 2 rookies and 1 second year guy).

Agreed FVV is not the way we should have gone... but I feel like even keeping Cam Payne and starting him would have been a better path than this.

[baseline bum]

Come do think of it, I would pass on DDR. But man I would welcome his passing.

Only passing I welcomed was Kobe's tbh

[scott]

If anything,1989 serves to support the current position. They traded a young All D, All NBA, All Star guard for Terry mings,who lasted 3 seasons before blowing his knee out and being completely washed. They traded Dawkins for the vet Cheeks who forced his way out, and was traded for another youngster in Strickland. Imagine if they don’t do the mings trade, and Cheeks is still unhappy and they move on Strickland.

C Robinson
SF Elliott
SG Robertson
PG Strickland

Then, you either keep Cadillac or Greenwood from the previous year as a PF.

Doing what they did kind of blew up in their faces, and they didn’t recover from that until Duncan.

I remember discussions of Kawhi, and Pop thinking he was kind of a super Bowen. He pretty much missed that one, and I don’t want him missing on this one by making assumptions about what Wemby is. I’m fine with dumping this season, getting a handle on things, and another high pick.

It is debatable, but I don't think Terry mings blowing out his knee in a summer pickup game 3 years later is something to point at and call the 1989 plan a bad plan. I'd call the TC acquisition a home run that got hit by some bad luck. By the time we traded Cheeks for Strickland, it was late February and the team had half a season with a combination of young talent and vet leadership. At no point was it what we have now - a bunch of young guys playing with very little direction or discipline. To be frank, the 2023-24 Spurs resemble everything we criticized the Steve Silas Rockets of being.

If we don't do the mings trade, and we still end up with Strickland but Cadillac in place of TC, I don't think we see nearly the same results. Now, if you are saying that maybe it would have been better to be 45-37 for DRob's early years and slowly build... that would be a fun conversation to be had. But I'm in the camp that acquiring TC in no way was a mistake or blew up in our faces, we just ran into bad luck with an injury. It could happen to anyone.

[TD 21]

Wrong.

Get off it. Ivey is a shooting guard.

“Potential,” great. Another one with potential. A bucket of potential and $5 will buy a cup of coffee.

You're an arrogant fool, who lacks common sense.

One last time: I don't care what Basketball-Reference's play-by-play data is telling you, that is mostly a function of roster construction (is Sochan a PG or just nominally playing it?). Read any pre-draft stuff about him or better yet, watch him play.

He's the definition of a combo guard. Just like Murray and White were and they were trying to turn Primo into, only he has a higher ceiling than any of them offensively.

This is a re-build and they need at least one more core building block, which will be based on potential.

[Robz4000]

Only passing I welcomed was Kobe's tbh

[baseline bum]

If anything,1989 serves to support the current position. They traded a young All D, All NBA, All Star guard for Terry mings,who lasted 3 seasons before blowing his knee out and being completely washed. They traded Dawkins for the vet Cheeks who forced his way out, and was traded for another youngster in Strickland. Imagine if they don’t do the mings trade, and Cheeks is still unhappy and they move on Strickland.

C Robinson
SF Elliott
SG Robertson
PG Strickland

Then, you either keep Cadillac or Greenwood from the previous year as a PF.

Doing what they did kind of blew up in their faces, and they didn’t recover from that until Duncan.

I remember discussions of Kawhi, and Pop thinking he was kind of a super Bowen. He pretty much missed that one, and I don’t want him missing on this one by making assumptions about what Wemby is. I’m fine with dumping this season, getting a handle on things, and another high pick.

It is debatable, but I don't think Terry mings blowing out his knee in a summer pickup game 3 years later is something to point at and call the 1989 plan a bad plan. I'd call the TC acquisition a home run that got hit by some bad luck. By the time we traded Cheeks for Strickland, it was late February and the team had half a season with a combination of young talent and vet leadership. At no point was it what we have now - a bunch of young guys playing with very little direction or discipline. To be frank, the 2023-24 Spurs resemble everything we criticized the Steve Silas Rockets of being.

If we don't do the mings trade, and we still end up with Strickland but Cadillac in place of TC, I don't think we see nearly the same results. Now, if you are saying that maybe it would have been better to be 45-37 for DRob's early years and slowly build... that would be a fun conversation to be had. But I'm in the camp that acquiring TC in no way was a mistake or blew up in our faces, we just ran into bad luck with an injury. It could happen to anyone.

Gotta imagine trading Alvin for TC was as much about his off the court problems as it was the Spurs needing a 4 and feeling pretty confident with Willie Anderson at the 2. And TC was also only a year older than Alvin. Bucks ended up dumping Alvin in 92-93 anyways after putting up 8.7PPG as a starter and he never ended up playing meaningful ball again in the league. The mings trade was excellent in retrospect even with him blowing out his knee. Alvin was a ticking time bomb. Glad he has gotten his life together now but the Spurs did well in that trade at the time.