Official 2024 Men's Olympic Basketball Tournament Thread

[Splits]

[Chinook]

(He is advising me to “do my own research” on the political and cultural situation in… my own country.)

^ You thinking living in a country means you don't have to do research about that country

[Pauleta14]

Americans are racist as . They own racism. That doesn't mean the French aren't racist as well. It is literally true there is no such category of people in France as "African-French". You're either French (white) or you're not.

Again a flase statement. They also created the wokeness era we live in. You're selecting whatever fits u

I wonder what type of generalities you can have on arabs or jews lmao

You are something

[Pauleta14]

i wake up to see this thread has changed to a debate on which country hates blacks more and/or is more imperialistic: France or the US. it's like comparing McDonalds to Burger King, or Taco Bell to Taco Bueno.

You're not helping bro ...

[rjv]

The conclusion is the same

Only thing I know for sure is that I am.

There are plenty of philosophical instances, like Plato's allegory of the cave as well

oh believe me i know, i have a masters in philosophy. western and continental philosophers spend a lot of time on back and forth discourse concerning the ontology of the self and reality, with the exception of the postmodernists, who just spend a lot of time questioning the nature of western european structures. (versus focusing on the self and our place within reality-this would be labeled as self-help or new age thought here in the states). i don't really know what nietzsche or heidegger would have had to say about their loss to france though.

[Splits]

(see what I just did with some stupid cliches about Switzerland? )

No I don't. Please explain

[Dex]

Meanwhile, DPOY Rudy Gobert is getting benched in the semi-finals

[Splits]

I wonder what type of generalities you can have on arabs or jews lmao

They are 1 level above Italians

[Pauleta14]

Non-metropolian means the territories that France has that aren't continental France. Le Pen was actually the winner in those areas during the run-off, but Melenchon won in the first ballot:





If it were purely a political expression, you'd expect Macron to pick up the areas Melenchon won in the first ballot. Lesser of two evils, as it were. That they flipped to Le Pen suggests they were more anti-Macron than anything else. Seeing Macron's foreign policy, I am not surprised.

But yes, Le Pen sucks and is a loser. I don't disagree there at all.

(While I didn't post a pic here, the outer areas mostly didn't vote for Macron's coalition in this most recent election. That could mean Macron's party didn't want to pick them up or that the voters there didn't want to support any coalition he was endorsing. But it's not a one-time thing.)

To analyse another country's political landscape you need to understand its social ones, the context and the candidates, it's far from the Democrats/Republican US model.

You also need to understand that the vast majority of ppl alwasy vote AGAINST and BY DEFAULT. only en extrem minority (usually left&right extrems) are voting FOR a candidate by idiology.

You also need to understand that this whole generation of politician disgust the ppl more than any prioviouses and that the main factor in people choosing their camp is who their fear the most would take control of the country.

That's the only reason Macron reached power, bc ultimately the French will alwasy chose the least extrem. Melanchon the communist or Lepen the fascist had and have ZERO chance of ever being elected.

You also need to educate yourself on the election system and the 2 turns. Historically the people have used to 1st round to say " you" and the 2nd for the real(listic) choice.

I'm sure you're smart enough to ealise at some point that if so many french ppl tell you that you are wrong it could be worth take a step back and wondering if we could be right. It's A LOT MORE complex than you seem to think.

France is a weird country, very hard to put its people in a box bc of its diversity and complex History

[Pauleta14]

To the French posters in this thread:


I do think there is a nuanced discussion to be had about Embiid, his letter, the factors that could have led to the letter being written, the response and the geopolitical context of that response. Those elements are all intertwined, and I do resist the attempts to assert they can be separated.

However, I do think it's going to derail this thread if I/we keep harping on it. So I can take the L here in the sense that the folks booing Embiid might be doing it with clean hearts and in good fun solely due to reading a letter, and that I should not have accused them of any consideration of the geopolitical context in which their responses exists. I can also admit that I do not watch soccer despite living in Austin where they keep trying to make Austin FC a thing.

It's all good and fun exchange mate. No need to take any L

It's actually a W if you learned even a little

[Pauleta14]

oh believe me i know, i have a masters in philosophy. western and continental philosophers spend a lot of time on back and forth discourse concerning the ontology of the self and reality, with the exception of the postmodernists, who just spend a lot of time questioning the nature of western european structures. (versus focusing on the self and our place within reality-this would be labeled as self-help or new age thought here in the states). i don't really know what nietzsche or heidegger would have had to say about their loss to france though.

Not doubting ur knowledge that is prob bigger than mine if u have a master

My point was just that we all have diff references that can be linked to the same idea. I just like Descartes a lot

[Pauleta14]

A Texan (or whatever) is giving me a lesson on French history and culture, that's funny.

Yes, you are right, I suppose that the white flag must be the cutting-edge weapon used by French imperialism to impose its views in the world. Maybe the creation of the Olympics is still imperialism. Perhaps the desire to keep the UN bodies viable to perpetuate the multilateralist spirit inspired, in part, by the USA, but which many American presidents for twenty years have sought to deny, is still imperialism. Perhaps making intimate verbal films without special effects should be proof of French imperialism in the world. Perhaps our fascination with all the cultures of the world, and first and foremost American cultures (basketball, for instance), is an unacknowledged tendency of our arrogant imperialism. Perhaps our desire to create a society based on multiculturalism in which everyone can live together and nourish themselves from each other's culture, marveling at the diversity of our society instead of asking each individual to the same community to stay among themselves in order to hope for social peace, that this too is still a form of imperialism. Perhaps, moreover, we are trying to impose our “secularism” on the world, a principle rarely understood…

Where you are right is that all these values ​​tend to be lost.

Racism does exist in France. It used to be only racism linked to poor people, to ghettos, that the country allowed to develop. With already terrible consequences: on average, people were not very racist (also a result of the colonialist past, and the past of collaboration with an anti-Semitic and genocidal occupying regime), but it was not direct: blacks or Arabs did not have of the same level of education, they were then victims of racism when they were looking for a job or housing (which is already a big problem, yes, but it doesn't affect other aspects of the society, for instance, mixed couples are not rare). But now, because of social networks, because of far-right media, because of far-right populists, more frontal racism is reappearing. But despite these excesses, I persist in thinking that there is no better country than France to live in when you are different from the historical norm. This country will have to work to ensure that racists do not come to power and that old issues are finally resolved.

Where you might still be right is that Macron's policy is perhaps the closest thing to a form of “imperialism”. But that’s part of the character’s package that tends toward autocracy.

But if there remains imperialism, we must above all speak of “Westernism”. And France takes part, yes. The last resolutely and openly colonial territory is Israel. Israel is an invention of the West. And for several months now, the West has been guilty of complicity in the genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. This is the last imperialism, the only one that really matters, the only one of which we in the West are all complicit and guilty.

Go get them Limguogolo!!!

[Brazil]

Swiss Germans hate Swiss French. But everyone hates the Italians. They are a dirty group, they are nasty and disgusting no matter which region they hail from, Ticino or Italy proper.

well that escalated quickly

[Brazil]

your capitulation is duly noted Chinook

[Chinook]

To analyse another country's political landscape you need to understand its social ones, the context and the candidates, it's far from the Democrats/Republican US model.

You also need to understand that the vast majority of ppl alwasy vote AGAINST and BY DEFAULT. only en extrem minority (usually left&right extrems) are voting FOR a candidate by idiology.

You also need to understand that this whole generation of politician disgust the ppl more than any prioviouses and that the main factor in people choosing their camp is who their fear the most would take control of the country.

That's the only reason Macron reached power, bc ultimately the French will alwasy chose the least extrem. Melanchon the communist or Lepen the fascist had and have ZERO chance of ever being elected.

You also need to educate yourself on the election system and the 2 turns. Historically the people have used to 1st round to say " you" and the 2nd for the real(listic) choice.

I'm sure you're smart enough to ealise at some point that if so many french ppl tell you that you are wrong it could be worth take a step back and wondering if we could be right. It's A LOT MORE complex than you seem to think.

France is a weird country, very hard to put its people in a box bc of its diversity and complex History

This explanation doesn't make sense. First, I'm not talking about Metropolitan France. That did go for Macron after looking more split. I'm talking about the non-Metropolian areas, and those places went from Melenchon to Le Pen, otherwise known as "from one extreme to the other". I'm very inclined to believe that was a " you" to Macron, but it never got "realistic" as you say. They just said, " you" twice. That they gave Macron the finger twice and then didn't vote for his coalition in 2024 makes me think their opinion of their nation's government is pretty clear.

If four out of five people deny an easy-to-find fact, it doesn't make me doubt that fact. It makes me wonder what they're looking at that prevents them from recognizing that easy-to-find fact. If we took a poll about the cause of the Iraq war, and the vast majority of Americans voted for "It was about spreading freedom to the people", would you then just start believing that's what happened? Or would you think, "Wow, Americans don't understand their own war, I guess"? I would guess the latter. Because we know why it happened, and some Donald Rumsfeld said doesn't change that, no matter how many Americans believe it.

[Chinook]

your capitulation is duly noted Chinook

That's one way to put you admitting that French people are probably less able to recognize their nation's imperialism than non-French people.

[Pauleta14]

This explanation doesn't make sense. First, I'm not talking about Metropolitan France. That did go for Macron after looking more split. I'm talking about the non-Metropolian areas, and those places went from Melenchon to Le Pen, otherwise known as "from one extreme to the other". I'm very inclined to believe that was a " you" to Macron, but it never got "realistic" as you say. They just said, " you" twice. That they gave Macron the finger twice and then didn't vote for his coalition in 2024 makes me think their opinion of their nation's government is pretty clear.

If four out of five people deny an easy-to-find fact, it doesn't make me doubt that fact. It makes me wonder what they're looking at that prevents them from recognizing that easy-to-find fact. If we took a poll about the cause of the Iraq war, and the vast majority of Americans voted for "It was about spreading freedom to the people", would you then just start believing that's what happened? Or would you think, "Wow, Americans don't understand their own war, I guess"? I would guess the latter. Because we know why it happened, and some Donald Rumsfeld said doesn't change that, no matter how many Americans believe it.

It's an illusion to think you can understand a poeple's view by the results of an election to start with.

Whether that election happens 6months sooner or later of sometimes if the weather is nice on the Sunday (election day on only day of rest) you know the participation % is going to be super low ( and even less representative of the ppl's opinion) you can get complete opposite results

When u have a 51-49 result, you can falsly act as if the winner represents the country's opinion, or u can keep in mind that almost 50% thinks differently.

My point is you need to not only improve your knowledge to get a better picture and more impotantly, even if it's alot more cofortable, I get it, must stop over simplifying a subject that by its essence is uber complex and constantly moving.

As someone told you, it's a national tradition in France to talk politic, as smart as you are you can't compete with our years of added knowledge, the same way even if I have decent knowledge on US politics and history I would take a step back if you tried (respectfully) to explain me how wrong and full of cliches I am.

As for the DOM TOM (oveseas Departements and Territories) France doesn't gain as much as it's added social issues and the people living there not only wanted to remain attached to the metropole but are often more french than many cocasians immigrants.

I don't get your point about the iraq war tbh, we all know the main factor was emotional and the trauma of 9/11 that blinded even the most decent individuals (the representant of France in the UN at that time Dominique De Villepin read an AMAZING letter, full of love and reminding the history of our nations, the fact that France is USA's first histoical ally etc ... just to have a Boycott France and french products campain for weeks...
That should tell you how emotions are a bigger factor than any dogma or political or economical views from the people.

Today FEAR drives every elections all around the world, in part bc every medias have to live off of that fear to make a living just bc it's the most efficient reaction trigger.

[Pauleta14]

That's one way to put you admitting that French people are probably less able to recognize their nation's imperialism than non-French people.

You need to find a bette come bck than that IF you actually read me...

We're still Top10 bad guys in the world

It's never been the point nor have we denied Fance's influence and policy (in Africa in particular but Sarkosy or Macron bent over when NATO asked as well)

[DAF86]

not sure what you are saying here, give me one example of a country where a good portion of the people is not pissed off by immigration ? Even Canada is starting to have issues with that, Switzerland is also a good example of a country who has difficulties with immigration, also well known that German Swiss "hate" italian Swiss and so on...

I'm sorry to tell you that but no, French people don't hate immigrants, that's too large of a generalization... We could dig into the no concept of African French that is mostly linked to a model of integration by assimilation rather than the English communitarism, and as you have seen this model is showing its limits.

I can play the game of who I find more racist... everybody has his list bro... as crazy as it sounds Brazilian are for instance contrary to the appearances extremely racist but this is a diferent form than in Europe, Argentina, Korea are also examples worth to dig into... but that's not really the place here.

This is fun, tbh. Let's keep on it. How is Brazilian racism different from the racism in Argentina, Korea and Europe, tbh?

[Chinook]

You need to find a bette come bck than that IF you actually read me...

We're still Top10 bad guys in the world

It's never been the point nor have we denied Fance's influence and policy (in Africa in particular but Sarkosy or Macron bent over when NATO asked as well)

I didn't reply to you. Brazil in consecutive posts accused me of not being able to call out French imperialism because I am not French and told Sugus that he could recognize Argentine racism because people outside the nation do a better job at recognizing that nation's issues than those inside the nation.

Now if you endorse that contradiction, then yes, that comeback applies to you as well.

It's never been the point nor have we denied Fance's influence and policy (in Africa in particular but Sarkosy or Macron bent over when NATO asked as well)

This may have never been a view you endorsed, but it is one that has been pushed in this thread. Again, if you want me to keep your own personal takes separate, responding to my posts quoting others as if I was quoting you isn't helping.

[DAF86]

Bros, it is simple, countries are all pretty much the same: they all have their racist people and their non-racist ones, their right-wingers and their left-wingers. If you think any country is inherently more racist than another, you are an ignorant , tbh.

[spurraider21]

To the French posters in this thread:


I do think there is a nuanced discussion to be had about Embiid, his letter, the factors that could have led to the letter being written, the response and the geopolitical context of that response. Those elements are all intertwined, and I do resist the attempts to assert they can be separated.

However, I do think it's going to derail this thread if I/we keep harping on it. So I can take the L here in the sense that the folks booing Embiid might be doing it with clean hearts and in good fun solely due to reading a letter, and that I should not have accused them of any consideration of the geopolitical context in which their responses exists. I can also admit that I do not watch soccer despite living in Austin where they keep trying to make Austin FC a thing.

so much for that

[Pauleta14]

I didn't reply to you. Brazil in consecutive posts accused me of not being able to call out French imperialism because I am not French and told Sugus that he could recognize Argentine racism because people outside the nation do a better job at recognizing that nation's issues than those inside the nation.

Now if you endorse that contradiction, then yes, that comeback applies to you as well.



This may have never been a view you endorsed, but it is one that has been pushed in this thread. Again, if you want me to keep your own personal takes separate, responding to my posts quoting others as if I was quoting you isn't helping.

Brazil reacted on your inacuracies and overall simplification of a complex subject along with a form that again seems condescending rather than logically humble on a topic you don't master as much as people who have practiced it all their lives.

You keep using for ex the word Imperialism when it's not adapted to our era at all neither to the way France's foreign policy works. It's always a 2 way road and mostly dodgy businesses that every countries in the world do and we'll never know enough about to have a solid opinion on.

The world isn't the same as 20-30 years ago, thei are lots of new economical and political powerfull places that keep growing, France like most the old europe only chance to survive remains Europe (unfortunately) and most decisions are heavily influenced by Bruxelles as much as Paris

[Pauleta14]

Bros, it is simple, countries are all pretty much the same: they all have their racist people and their non-racist ones, their right-wingers and their left-wingers. If you think any country is inherently more racist than another, you are an ignorant , tbh.

The same applies for everything and especially diff communities, gays, jews, muslims, whatever... Anytime u start your sentence with a generalisation you're doomed to say something stupid.

[Chinook]

so much for that

I tried, and we did stop talking about soccer and like that.