Coach Pop Takes us to church this Sunday- please kneel.

[baseline bum]

You can't accuse me of ducking bro, I keep answering despite trying to put an end to this convo multiple times...

I answered you in diff ways that you can't ask somone's opinion on a non exhaustive situation you present. You're telling me there's this or that choice, when in reality there are many others AND Biden was the one creating the situation that you're presenting.

My position is mostly agnostic, there are things I know and a lot more that I (we) don't.

Having a definitive pov for ppl in our position is abusrd. The most logical positon to have is agnosticism, humility and focus on the stuff we control. The world isn't black/white the way it was +50y ago and our countries/leaders aren't always the nice guys.

You don't answer and have just been posting lazy bothsidesisms and now you're strawmanning me into being some flag waving my country is always right defender which is rich.

[baseline bum]

Don't you have any sense of self deprecation at all?

Pardon me for using sarcasm after being insulted and attacked for an hour

FYI you can find the same type of "informative" videos that argue the opposite. That's not an agument.

We can agree to disagree on a topic that isn't manichean. You haven't noticed but despite having a very diff pov than you or others, I haven't been insulting you bc I'm pissed you disagree.

Lastly in case you didn't notice, contrary to you I don't have a horse in the race that would by definition cloud my view. It's human nature, once you chose a camp, you become biased and defend your "team".

I'm uber critic on both sides. I'm on the side on the people whoever they are and on the side on the democracy and its pillars/counter powers that are a condition for its existence and subsistance. Free independant medias, justice or unions, transparency and accountability etc

All the rest is just a game you're not aware you're being a participant. The idea that so many ppl take time to listen to a candidate is mind boggling to me, it's like opening the door to a salesman and giving him a shot at manipulate you...

It just ends up dividing us as this convo has shown.

You wanna climb down off that cross?

[Pauleta14]

You don't answer and have just been posting lazy bothsidesisms and now you're strawmanning me into being some flag waving my country is always right defender which is rich.

flag waiving...

Bro we're turning in circles, I did answer you multiple times, you're just not satified with what I said.

You're acting as if you were the head of state that HAS TO take a decison, forgetting you don't have enough knowledge for that.

You don't have to have a defintive pov on such a complex topic but you act as if and go after whoever dare not having the answer you seek.

Let's stop here, we're going nowhere

[Pauleta14]

You wanna climb down off that cross?

I hope this cynicism leaves you as soon as possible my friend. That was a genuine post

[baseline bum]

I hope this cynicism leaves you as soon as possible my friend. That was a genuine post

You're such a victim.

[baseline bum]

flag waiving...

Bro we're turning in circles, I did answer you multiple times, you're just not satified with what I said.

You're acting as if you were the head of state that HAS TO take a decison, forgetting you don't have enough knowledge for that.

You don't have to have a defintive pov on such a complex topic but you act as if and go after whoever dare not having the answer you seek.

Let's stop here, we're going nowhere

Your most comprehensive answer here is telling someone to google .

[z0sa]

why do Trump cultists/apologists think that they don't have to provide any proof or answers to their conspiracy theories? In our (currently) free society, you have to back up your bull with actual evidence, not "lol how do you not know these are the facts?" and "do your own research" when confronted with the actual evidence.

[baseline bum]

100%.

Since I've been old enough to vote, with only two exceptions, every vote has been cast as a "lesser of two evils" vote.

Clinton, nor Biden nor Harris aren't the folks I'd choose if the Dem party asked my opinion, but it's such a no-brainer against Trump that it doesn't require a lot of critical analysis.

I'm curious what votes you would consider ones you actually liked making instead of lesser of two evils. For me only 2008 wasn't a lesser of two evils vote, and that was because Obama was running as another FDR. By 2012 when we saw he was much more like another Clinton I pretty much only voted for Obama because the GOP promised to kill off Medicare except for the GOP's 55+ year-old voting base because 'they made them promises' as if people like me hadn't been paying into Medicare for years too.

[Limguogolo]

Well, I didn't expect the biggest relativist on this thread to be French^^. Saying Trump = Harris sounds a lot like the old campaign where Democrats said Hillary was corrupt. That may be true, but Trump is worse than corruption. With him, we saw an ever more frightening slide towards fascism. We are not that far from the right-wing of the left under Hollande, except that in France, it ended up marginalizing the rule of law by bringing to power a president who ended up adopting far-right measures. Obama, Biden or Harris would be content to pursue right-wing policies. Too bad for Sanders, but it was already an achievement five years ago that the left had its chances in an election. The center right of American Democrats will always be better than fascism.

Fascism doesn't care much about the rule of law or international law. You can be corrupt and still minimally respect certain rules. Trump governs according to his mood: a dictator says he is smart, Trump will respond by lifting sanctions against his country; a dictator mocks Trump and is capable of deporting every American from this country (or worse, bombing the dictator).

Respect for international law particularly concerns aid to Ukraine. The West is bound by agreements on the security of the country, and we respond only timidly to these duties. Is a war expensive? What a joke... The USA would have immediately given sufficient stocks to Ukraine to get rid of the Russians and the war would have cost much less. Historically, wars also stimulate the economy. There is nothing rational about the economy: the great powers can perfectly well have large deficits. The primary barometer of an economy is GDP. However, the purchase of weapons maintains the industrial arms sector. Sending thousands of tanks that the USA has and which are rotting in hangars is free: it would help Ukraine, but it would not boost the economy. On the other hand, placing endless orders on ammunition is extremely beneficial for the economy. The USA is also the main beneficiary of the end of gas exports to Europe. The war in Ukraine stimulates the American economy.

Contrary to what neoliberals say, deficits have one virtue: to activate growth. Having a lot or a little deficit is not a relevant indicator for judging the good economic health of a country. The deficit of a State cannot be perceived as the deficit of an individual. And this is one of the lies propagated by neoliberals which serves to destroy public services. The neoliberals are anarchists: they want there to be no rules, except that of the strongest. They don't care about the states' deficit because they don't care about the states. Their interest is that of the powerful, not the general interest (and therefore that of the State).

What is happening in the Middle East is even worse than what is happening in Ukraine. Israel is a Western colony, a creation of the UN, under the influence of the great winner of the war, in a territory where Jews had no rights. We have opened Pandora's box. So the least we could do would be to put pressure on Israel so that they cannot develop their extremist policies. Biden and Harris are already largely culpable and complicit in ongoing war crimes and even genocide. Nothing new, you might say, from the country that fought the Vietnam War and imposed dictatorships in South America. Except that with Trump, Israeli supremacists will find an ideal ally. Biden and Harris are cowards: they are not corrupted by Jewish interests, it is lower than that, they are afraid of losing the votes of Jewish voters (a twisted assumption, moreover, because many American Jews are oppose Israel's policy).

So no, Trump and Harris are not the same thing. It's a matter of tipping. After the horrors of two successive world wars, countries have always sought appeasement and the common good. And this, with many nuances. The neoliberal drift has now been at work since Reagan, and since then, we have seen a permanent slide towards fascist excesses. Funny to see that Reagan had already managed to supplant Carter thanks to a scam involving Iran. Today, Trump no longer even needs to do things quietly: all it takes is for an idea to cross his mind or for him to have read it on social networks for him to talk about it in a meeting, and as crazy as this idea may seem, it will act as a program and we will no longer be surprised at what it is capable of doing. The shift towards fascism is almost reaching its final chapter. The only question that arises is whether we will do like previous times and experience the worst in order to hope for the best again. Or if we will have learned from the excesses of the past. If he loses, Harris will be able to pursue a center-right policy, and if the USA does not fall into civil war, perhaps we will be lucky enough to see a shift, this time towards LEFT. The left is currently inaudible because excesses have become the norm. But if fascism is stifled, there is still a possibility that a Harris mandate will trigger this shift toward less excess. (This is unlikely. In the USA as elsewhere, it seems that we have to go through fascism again to "try it", as if we were all collectively suffering from amnesia.)

[baseline bum]

If he loses, Harris will be able to pursue a center-right policy, and if the USA does not fall into civil war, perhaps we will be lucky enough to see a shift, this time towards LEFT. The left is currently inaudible because excesses have become the norm. But if fascism is stifled, there is still a possibility that a Harris mandate will trigger this shift toward less excess. (This is unlikely. In the USA as elsewhere, it seems that we have to go through fascism again to "try it", as if we were all collectively suffering from amnesia.)

I'm a little encouraged that we have seen the Democrats dragged to the left, even if just slightly so far, by their voting base. As a Gen-X'er I'm in the last gen that entered the workforce with a functioning economy in the US. But now that Millennials who have never had a functioning economy in their working years are a large part of the voting base even one of the most right wing Democrats in Biden, someone who was made VP to calm fears of the scary (ran as) left of center negro, was dragged kicking and screaming into negotiating drug prices through Medicare, capping out of pocket costs for prescription drugs in Medicare Part D, and blocking the Albertsons - Kroger merger, there's hope the voting base might drag the party away from neoliberalism once the mummies like Pelosi die off. Of course Biden's and Harris' full throated support of Netenyahu's genocide is a real damper on that, but a vote for Trump is a vote for Netenyahu's genocide too.

[Pauleta14]

Well, I didn't expect the biggest relativist on this thread to be French^^. Saying Trump = Harris

That's the perception, not the reality.

From the start I've been put in a position of opposition that I didn't seek. I've been clear that none of my pov were based on US internal policies but its concrete impact on the world, making a comparison between the last 2 administrations ONLY because some were defending the present one when this it is at the origin of even more trouble than the previous.

I've also multiple time clearly said I consider Trump a lunatic, which in my book isn't a compliment nor an endorsement.

[Pauleta14]

You're such a victim.

You're so emo

[baseline bum]

You're so emo

You're the one whining about being attacked, poor you

[baseline bum]

That's the perception, not the reality.

From the start I've been put in a position of opposition that I didn't seek. I've been clear that none of my pov were based on US internal policies but its concrete impact on the world, making a comparison between the last 2 administrations ONLY because some were defending the present one when this it is at the origin of even more trouble than the previous.

I've also multiple time clearly said I consider Trump a lunatic, which in my book isn't a compliment nor an endorsement.

Did you forget when you whined that Pop was insulting the fanbase by complaining about Trump ending democracy in the US? LOL your both sides crap when Trump literally tried to overthrow democracy and overturn the election four years ago when he lost and now a complicit supreme court has decided he's above the law as long as he calls his crimes official acts. Maybe you're just trolling and not really a LePen voter but you're doing a great impression by trying to normalize him.

[spurraider21]

why do Trump cultists/apologists think that they don't have to provide any proof or answers to their conspiracy theories? In our (currently) free society, you have to back up your bull with actual evidence, not "lol how do you not know these are the facts?" and "do your own research" when confronted with the actual evidence.

who do you think they've learned that from?

[Pauleta14]

You're the one whining about being attacked, poor you

Did you forget when you whined that Pop was insulting the fanbase by complaining about Trump ending democracy in the US? LOL your both sides crap when Trump literally tried to overthrow democracy and overturn the election four years ago when he lost and now a complicit supreme court has decided he's above the law as long as he calls his crimes official acts. Maybe you're just trolling and not really a LePen voter but you're doing a great impression by trying to normalize him.

You have the word "whining" easy I see

I don't recall doing so at any moment, I just made an observation.

You're so emo you assumed immediately that I was defending Trump when I was just making the point that politic has to stay away from sport.

You need to learn to control your emotions, you're going all over the place

[baseline bum]

You have the word "whining" easy I see

I don't recall doing so at any moment, I just made an observation.

You're so emo you assumed immediately that I was defending Trump when I was just making the point that politic has to stay away from sport.

You need to learn to control your emotions, you're going all over the place

Speaking of being all over the place

From the start I've been put in a position of opposition that I didn't seek. I've been clear that none of my pov were based on US internal policies but its concrete impact on the world

From the start of the thread

I'm not american and don't have a side really, I just find it hard to understand how any intelligent person would take any side other than by default. Both are ed up

Normalizing the guy who has tried to overthrow democracy in this nation once and will do it again with the supreme court's blessing should he win this election is absolutely defending him.

[Pauleta14]

Normalizing the guy who has tried to overthrow democracy in this nation once and will do it again with the supreme court's blessing should he win this election is absolutely defending him.

You really have lost your mind buddy...

I can feel it's a very sensitive subject for you, it just isn't for me. I'd expect a bit more stoicism from an adult in this convo tho.

You're over interpreting everything I say and ignoring everything that could bring any nuance in your pov. How many times do I need to say what I think of Trump for u to stop acting like I'm a fan or defending him?

How do u want me not to take you for a very limited dude intellectually if you're not able to dissociate facts and opinions?

A criticism toward Biden's administration doesn't equal a support for the Trump's

What kind of world you live in where anyone not sharing your pov necessarilly has the worst possible extrem one?

And you wanna act/take the higher ground?!??

You're messed up dude, you need to take a step back and learn critical thinking.

[z0sa]

who do you think they've learned that from?

True - but there is a difference, a major one. As much as these types vicariously live their dreams in their echo chambers via Trumpisms, they aren't billionaires with half a major country's population defending their every action. They don't get the free pass to pull bull but they want to act like they can and are just as powerful. They're not though, yet this fascination with "telling it like it is" (barf) is really the thing that brings these strongmen to power. It's a direct reflection on the stupidity (or at least, willful ignorance) of people who just can't be ed to critically assess anything that might hurt their feelings or make them realize they could be wrong.


I know you know this but it's worth mentioning

[Joseph Kony]

all you maga loving clowns, kiss my ass you trump ed gots

[scott]

You really have lost your mind buddy...

I can feel it's a very sensitive subject for you, it just isn't for me. I'd expect a bit more stoicism from an adult in this convo tho.

You're over interpreting everything I say and ignoring everything that could bring any nuance in your pov. How many times do I need to say what I think of Trump for u to stop acting like I'm a fan or defending him?

How do u want me not to take you for a very limited dude intellectually if you're not able to dissociate facts and opinions?

A criticism toward Biden's administration doesn't equal a support for the Trump's

What kind of world you live in where anyone not sharing your pov necessarilly has the worst possible extrem one?

And you wanna act/take the higher ground?!??

You're messed up dude, you need to take a step back and learn critical thinking.

Sorry mate, but you start out by equating the two candidates, then by saying that one party far outspends the other (which is not true in a historical or recent sense), then saying that the cost of the Ukraine war was too high, then saying it wasn't about the cost when shown that the costs were actually rather insignificant as a portion of the budget, and now you're trying this "but I said Trump was a lunatic!" thing.

You've stepped all over yourself in this thread.

[scott]

True - but there is a difference, a major one. As much as these types vicariously live their dreams in their echo chambers via Trumpisms, they aren't billionaires with half a major country's population defending their every action. They don't get the free pass to pull bull but they want to act like they can and are just as powerful. They're not though, yet this fascination with "telling it like it is" (barf) is really the thing that brings these strongmen to power. It's a direct reflection on the stupidity (or at least, willful ignorance) of people who just can't be ed to critically assess anything that might hurt their feelings or make them realize they could be wrong.


I know you know this but it's worth mentioning

One of the most fascinating things to me is that Trump is exactly the kind of dude that his fans would hate to work for, yet they idolize him as some kind of managerial genius.

[baseline bum]

You really have lost your mind buddy...

Yes the RICO charge against Trump for trying to overturn the results of the election in Georgia are just some I made up in an emo state. As is the hard right supreme court coming to the conclusion the president cannot be prosecuted for official acts. January 6th also never happened.

[baseline bum]

Sorry mate, but you start out by equating the two candidates, then by saying that one party far outspends the other (which is not true in a historical or recent sense), then saying that the cost of the Ukraine war was too high, then saying it wasn't about the cost when shown that the costs were actually rather insignificant as a portion of the budget, and now you're trying this "but I said Trump was a lunatic!" thing.

You've stepped all over yourself in this thread.

Careful, stop being emo for quoting his words back to him

[koriwhat]

why do Trump cultists/apologists think that they don't have to provide any proof or answers to their conspiracy theories? In our (currently) free society, you have to back up your bull with actual evidence, not "lol how do you not know these are the facts?" and "do your own research" when confronted with the actual evidence.

Russiagate... 'nuff said!