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Sochan is absolutely the kind of player you want around Wemby imo, both players just need to reign in their shot selections/volume.
this is so funny, people say we need to send every non shooter to the bench… then every year in the draft advocate for a NON Shooter, LOL now a bunch of non shooters are all on the bench.
Sochan is absolutely the kind of player you want around Wemby imo, both players just need to reign in their shot selections/volume.
Not just getting in Wemby's way...but, everyone else too.
Said it after the first time I saw him play. This guy has one of the lowest BBIQ's I've ever seen. Running into people, out of position, bringing defensive players to the ball instead of away from the ball, has no concept of spacing, gets tunnel vision...and on and on. He plays like a 13 year old. He's Kryptonite for everyone.
There is no one to face guard on UTA that the lesser defenders can't. In these case playing Mamu is really more beneficial. But that is not the case with elite teams
OK, so +24. Since a Wemby was +43 overall, that means that he was +19 WITH Sochan. Not a ginormous difference.
Rarely on the low post, but often at the elbow, the best area he can be imo, he can pass, shoot a mid range or go to the bascket with just one step.
Having Jeremy never being far from the paint makes things more difficut and brings his defender closer to Wemby.
I agree there are diff ways to create spacing, not only the 3pt, but it requires a player like a Boris Diaw or a player that has a high bbiq and gets when he needs to move around depending on Vic's movements. Jeremy isn't there yet.
His 3pt shooting that obssesses everybody isn't the most important area I want to see him progress, his court awareness is really poor, he needs to find the right balance between his enthousiasm/high energy and his focus/decision making.
[/QUOTE]I don't know that evidence supports that. Their pairing data suggests it's pretty mutual. I've talked quite a bit about Jeremy being mostly neutral against opposing centers, but you can be worse than neutral. Sochan also has better pairing data with Collins this year than with Wemby, but as I've said that data's still way too noisy. [/QUOTE]
I don't have any data to support that tbh, it's mostly eye test. I'm not sure stats are necessary to state that Wemby is a lot better playmaker and talented passer than Jeremy.
I'd say the same thing about Tre, who despite being the PG ended up being more the receipient of pick and pop plays than setting up pick and rolls for Vic.
That's why last season's datas are so complicate to analyse imo.
Wemby being (a lot) better with Tre Jones for doesn't mean Tre was good as much as it meant the other options were terrible.
Franchise players don't become subordinate to lesser talents, even if that talent doesn't fit them well. Giannis and Robinson are great examples of that. As mentioned, Wemby didn't prop up Sochan last year. This year, the Spurs seem to have game-planned a very co-dependent relationship between them. If we're able to get more games where the opponent doesn't cross-guard Wemby, we may be able to see how successful Sochan is at scoring against guys his own size. He did not do well yesterday, but it was one game. We'll need more data to see if it was mostly due to the matchup or him just not playing well that night.[/QUOTE]
Of course it's just a small sample size, let's see how it goes, but Pop didn't do this move out of nowhere, he and his staff might have seen something and trying new stuff to identify the correlations and the real causations.
Again, the point isn't to on Jeremy, we all need him to be a success but it make sense to try new things and maybe it's just a correlation but maybe Pop found something vs Utah.
Forget Wemby, I like what Jeremy brings to our weak 2nd unit. We can't have another season where everytime Wemby goes to the bench it becomes a layup festival for the opponents. Jereny prevents that and it could help him grow a lot to become the leader of that unit imo.
[/QUOTE]You say that with a ton of confidence, but it's not really what was born out in the data. Out of Victor's 10-most used lineups last year, the lineups with the highest and third-highest net-ratings featured both Jones and Sochan. While Tre shot decently well after becoming a starter last year, no one on this board would consider him a spacer. I am considering last year's versions Johnson, Branham and Champ spacers, even though a lot of STers would consider them inadequate. In terms of four-man units, Sochan was in the second, third and fifth through 10th units. In terms of trios, Sochan, Jones and Wemby ranked as Victor's third-best trio.
In short, I don't actually think there's as much evidence for that point as you assumed. [/QUOTE]
Same answer than previous regarding last season's data. It's all relative considering all linups sucked, just some more than others. Of course having Tre is A LOT LESS damaging than having Wesley as a PG for Wemby, doesn't mean Tre was good.
I am not talking about your view point. I said in each post in this thread that I understand you're being more cautious and realistic in your projection. I'm not attacking you.
cool
[/QUOTE]My point is that we DON'T all know. The gist of that segment is "Why is Wemby inconsistent?" They felt the need to make up something that's not really well supported at all to justify why Wemby isn't the guy they were expecting rather than consider if their expectations were wrong and even unfair to make in the first place. Folks like them have zero interest in living in reality where GOAT talents take several years to develop. They want to churn that cycle is a finished product who only struggles because everyone sucks around him. That quickly turns into someone suggesting he ask out and then the soulless media ecosystem churning that baseless speculation into "rumors" that Wemby wants out. Then you have Stephen A Smith going on air talking about how Miami, LAL or NYK is such a better destination if Wemby wants to win or how the Spurs could at LEAST trade a million picks for Trae Young or Markkanen if they don't want to make their star unhappy.
It's a gross cycle, man, and it really does start with folks blaming everyone else but Wemby and his perfectly normal inexperience for why he has a bad game. They even said in that video that Chet "Has a better supporting cast around him" as if Chet is the star and not the support for SGA. It's bull , and it's bull with a purpose. People buying into that bull , even just the initial premises, sucks.[/QUOTE]
I could be wrong but I haven't identified even one biased Wemby fanboy on ST. For real (I know some tried to make me one "ad hominem style" but I'm too old for this like most on ST). I think we tend to over interpret posts and rants during games and after losses.
We're all aware of the stupid habbits Wemby refuses to get rid of but we're also all witnessing something we've never seen before despite our constant temptations to find comps from the past.
Deploring not having a better roster to start the career of a generational player doesn't exonerate any of his faults but it's how a lot of people perceive it on ST and it leads to a lot of unnecessary accusations and waste of time.
I think ppl perceive some of your posts as a passive agressive way to criticise Wemby the same way a lot thought I was being a hater on Sochan or Tre when I criticised them.
We need to chill
PS/ I don't know how to use a quote separation, hope it's understandable
It's still quite timid, but there's a growing awareness in the media on the "wtf Pop is doing with Wemby..."Kevin took a on Keldon, Pop, and Collins while saying Mamu should play more
Anti sniff crew membership confirmed
Let’s put a pin on this one for later.
Want to see whether a CP/Dev/Champ/Sochan/Wemby line up addresses the spacing issues.
Also think Barnes’s struggles has a lot to do with the spacing woes, which is not getting addressed as much.
The point is not to say Sochan sucks but to wonder where he'd be more useful RIGHT NOW. Not long term
Other than the spacing aspect, don't you think Sochan would be a lot more useful with a 2nd unit who has Zollins who can't defend so that we don't lose all the benefice of Wemby's defense when he goes to the bench?
I also think Sochan needs to have to fight for his spot to become the player we all want him to become. Not his fault, but he never had to fight for his starting spot and I can't help but think it no stranger to his very slow development.
It's human nature
There are multiple teams with a non shooting big with a shooting big, or even two non shooting big. Nuggets, Cleveland, Phoenix, Dallas. To pin this all on sochan is lazy, and to do it after one game is simply laughable, especially when sochan worked decently well with wemby last year.
Issue remains that wemby has to punish the defence when someone sticks a small on him. Post his ass up, or simply shoot over him.
I'm also going to add here that Sochan seems to have developed a great chemistry with CP3 which would be mostly negated if he was coming off the bench.
But OP obviously doesn't care about other valid points being made here, and is just sticking to their "SOCHAN BAD" schtick.
SpursTalk gonna SpursTalk.
The answer is coaching.
Cavs looked out of sorts last season, two undersized guards who also happen to be bad defenders and two non-shooting bigs.
Kenny Atkinson made them look like a legit playoff team right away and all the Garland/Allen trade rumors have stopped.
Yeah. I’ve been a staunch defender of pop for years but even I have to admit he’s really lost the script. The offensive and defensive schemes are largely head scratching, the lineups were vomit inducing.
That said, he is still highly respected by the players and he does have the ability to really manage the players well. Kawhi has proven that it was all on him and pop just got neutered by it. If pop can get a few good assistant coaches that will really take control of the Xs and Os, then have those assistants take care of the schemes, like what KFC used to do, then the spurs can make some serious noise.
Wemby is obviously an other-worldly talent, Vassell can be a good 3rd option on a championship level team, sochan does a lot of the dirty work, castle is a bulldog. These players can be a skeleton of a good young team. Develop castles outside game, get another scoring wing who can defend and the spurs can really compete with the right schemes. People make it out like OKC for talent at every position that are far better than the spurs. I disagree. It’s the schemes that have clear roles for the players that make the differences. These are professional athletes and they can certainly excel at their roles if they only have to focus on a few things. Asking them to be everything everywhere all at once is when they fail. Ironically, sochan is the biggest example of this.
What exactly has been slow there? Sochan has literally been our best player and should be in the MIP race if he keeps this up. I don't see the issue. Have you seen his statline?
Gonna be just taking sentences here and there to keep the length down. You can space the floor between the dunker spot and the elbow. Of course, this is all assuming that Sochan hangs out at rim. In reality, it moves around the court, driving into the paint sometimes and cutting in at other times. Remember, spacing is multi-dimensional, and having guys move through the paint spaces better than having them stand still. My point was that you can provide viable spacing with a guy who stays inside the arc, even when you run a play that brings two more players into the paint. Think about how you can space a fast break with three guys where they all run into the paint at the same time. Even though the defender has less ground to cover, the pass would get to the spacer much more quickly, and the player would be in position for a quick and high-value attempt. Would you rather give Sochan a dunk or Mamu a three? Well Mamu is shooting 50 percent from three on a couple of attempts, but Sochan is shooting over 70 percent at the rim so far this year on way more attempts. Neither one is a shot a defense wants to give up.
Victor not having go-to moves plays into the difficulty of playing with him. Sochan can't sync his movements with Wemby because Wemby himself moves neither predictably or optimally. He moves to get himself into what he thinks is good scoring position, and an offense can't really function that way. Diaw was very smart and knew how to read a floor better than either of the young guys we're talking about, but he also played in a system that directed much of the movement in pre-planned actions. I think if you were to put 2014's Mills, Belinelli, Ginobili and Diaw on the modern Spurs, you'd see them struggle quite a bit. Would they surpass the current crop, of course. They were much better players. But would they just adjust to Victor breaking structure? Not nearly as well.I agree there are diff ways to create spacing, not only the 3pt, but it requires a player like a Boris Diaw or a player that has a high bbiq and gets when he needs to move around depending on Vic's movements. Jeremy isn't there yet.
You can examine it through a counterfactual though. Like if Sochan were helped by Wemby more than Wemby helped Sochan, then you'd expect Wemby's non-Sochan pairings to be better than Sochan's non-Wemby pairings. That's not how the numbers bore it out. They were both better together than they were with the majority of other players. This, year, Sochan is scoring better with a big who plays much less on the perimeter (though in an unstable sample size), which if Sochan were clogging the lane shouldn't make sense. Are we saying Collins is a better floor-spacer than Wemby or that he draws more attention?I don't have any data to support that tbh, it's mostly eye test. I'm not sure stats are necessary to state that Wemby is a lot better playmaker and talented passer than Jeremy.
This is not false. But if you were to make a thread last year calling Jones Wemby's kryptonite because of one game where the Spurs went on a run without Tre in the lineup, it would look weird. There's a difference between saying, "Hey the Spurs should be open to upgrading over Sochan and trying new combinations" and "Sochan is damaging Wemby, and he needs to be benched"Wemby being (a lot) better with Tre Jones for doesn't mean Tre was good as much as it meant the other options were terrible.
There are definitely Wemby fanboys on this site. They've been quiet this year because of the struggles. But they exist, and they are normal. Player-fans are just part of the ecosystem, and a board that loves meming as much as ST amplifies them. A lot of the ones who were most vociferous last year have started to calm down. I'd like to say that the energy I put into fighting the conspiracy theories made a difference, but I think the Olympics helped more. People started to see that Wemby's struggles weren't merely a matter of coaching or supporting cast. He's objectively immature and underdeveloped compared to the guy we hope he'll become. A lot of people didn't see that objective situation until the Spurs were taken out of it.I could be wrong but I haven't identified even one biased Wemby fanboy on ST. For real (I know some tried to make me one "ad hominem style" but I'm too old for this like most on ST). I think we tend to over interpret posts and rants during games and after losses.
It doesn't have to be used as an excuse, and as I said to another poster, I was quite upset that the Spurs passed up on a top-10 talent to run it back with Branham and Wesley and that they settled into Paul and Barnes over more dramatic moves. You can do both, but the ESPN folks aren't doing that. We'll see if there are a lot of posters on this site to follow suit. Hopefully, the progress we've seen since the second half of the OKC game is real, and Victor continues to take steps to marry his exploration with development meat-and-potatoes skills to allow him to get easy touches and allow the offense to work for everyone.Deploring not having a better roster to start the career of a generational player doesn't exonerate any of his faults but it's how a lot of people perceive it on ST and it leads to a lot of unnecessary accusations and waste of time.
so it's [ QUOTE]--- text ---[ /QUOTE] without the spaces. You keeping using the / for both sides, when it's only for the closing part of the excerpt you're quotingPS/ I don't know how to use a quote separation, hope it's understandable
OP is a Wemby fan, not a Spurs fan. I'm not gonna feed the troll.
We got Brett Brown.
Said the same a few years ago.Asking them to be everything everywhere all at once is when they fail. Ironically, sochan is the biggest example of this.
Trying to teach players how to do everything is beneficial if those players actually have the potential for it.
If they don't, it's just too overwhelming and they get completely lost.
To me it just doesn't make sense to have a 75 year old coach when your franchise player is 20.
Should've taken a step back and a front office role to just help players on the mental side of things, but we could've had numberous younger coaches from Pop's tree in charge and they would grow with Wemby and the team.
Instead, we'll make a change in 2 or 3 years when Wemby will be close to his prime and everyone will expect results. Every lost season will be seen as a disaster. Get someone in while there's time to build and figure things out.
Sochan has been great at... what we know he's great at. He's added consistency. Great.
We haven't seen any progress in his shooting, court awareness, ball handling or poise. He needs to control his energy and use it more wisely.
Idk what games you've been watching, but his post game is way better.
I posted his awful FG% in the paint many times, he just kept throwing up randomly.
In these few games his post moves have almost all been deliberate and calculated. He's using his body well.
The only real concern right now is his non-existant jumpshot. That will determine if he ever becomes anything more than a solid glue guy for the team.
Don't get my /s wrong, Sochan's been doing well. But he can't be a long term guy next to Wemby (in terms of minutes on the floor) unless he's got a Bowen shot from the corner or its analogue. It's 2024, not 1984.
That's why I mentioned Cavs doing great with Mobley and Allen.
A competent coach can make a lot of things work...if Jeremy's other attributes make him a worthwhile starter, that is.
And while we might want it, Wemby won't be a traditional center. He's already shooting a lot and he'll undoubtedly improve his 3pt efficency.
Castle won't be a great shooter, but hopefully he'll be good enough to reliably hit open shots.
We need another wing, if we can get an elite shooter like let's say Bane, Castle/Devin/(Bane-like shooter)/Jeremy/Wemby would be good enough and even if it's not elite offensively, it would be monstrous on defense.
Mavs just made the finals with two players that shoot only when wide open and a non-shooting big. With two of their offensive engines both being bad defenders.
With that said, if Jeremy and Castle are both to start, our TBD wing position simply must be an elite high volume shooter.
Fair enough, especially regarding the tansition spacing, I was more reffering to the half court one.
My criticism is always mostly directed to PATFO and their limited choices with the roster they built. Each option has its limitations, we'd need a mix of Sochan and Mamu idealy
Again, not exonerating Wemby, who's anything but easy to figure out and coach. I was too harsh when I said Sochan was more of a "cost", as all the players despites their defaults had to put their indiv interests aside for the better of the new Fanchise player.Victor not having go-to moves plays into the difficulty of playing with him. Sochan can't sync his movements with Wemby because Wemby himself moves neither predictably or optimally. He moves to get himself into what he thinks is good scoring position, and an offense can't really function that way. Diaw was very smart and knew how to read a floor better than either of the young guys we're talking about, but he also played in a system that directed much of the movement in pre-planned actions. I think if you were to put 2014's Mills, Belinelli, Ginobili and Diaw on the modern Spurs, you'd see them struggle quite a bit. Would they surpass the current crop, of course. They were much better players. But would they just adjust to Victor breaking structure? Not nearly as well.
However I think that considering the singular options Pop has at his disposal (Mamu good on O bad on D, Sochan almost opposite) it makes sense to try diff lineups depending on matchups. Even if it's a very small sample size and indeep the diff wasn't astounding, there was a noticeable one. Let's wait and see if it's tried again by Pop, I think it's worth trying not just for Wemby's interest but as I mentioned many times for Jeremy's as well.
Mitigating the weakness of the bench with extra juice and defence can't hurt either when Wemby can compensate Mamu's deficiencies for ex.
True but it can also be related with the lack of options we have more than Sochan's play in itself. It's relativeYou can examine it through a counterfactual though. Like if Sochan were helped by Wemby more than Wemby helped Sochan, then you'd expect Wemby's non-Sochan pairings to be better than Sochan's non-Wemby pairings. That's not how the numbers bore it out. They were both better together than they were with the majority of other players. This, year, Sochan is scoring better with a big who plays much less on the perimeter (though in an unstable sample size), which if Sochan were clogging the lane shouldn't make sense. Are we saying Collins is a better floor-spacer than Wemby or that he draws more attention?
Despite this thread appearing to be anti Sochan (I messed up the le tbh), the real topic is "the rotations and linups options".
This is not false. But if you were to make a thread last year calling Jones Wemby's kryptonite because of one game where the Spurs went on a run without Tre in the lineup, it would look weird. There's a difference between saying, "Hey the Spurs should be open to upgrading over Sochan and trying new combinations" and "Sochan is damaging Wemby, and he needs to be benched"
That "kryptonite" quote is definitely too extreme and was a hot take one. I agree as I said on the previous answer, it's very relative.
Mostly on PATFO's choices and available options
I was effering to the ones you can't even exchange with, like the LBJ's who think you're a hater if you think he's not the goat etcThere are definitely Wemby fanboys on this site. They've been quiet this year because of the struggles. But they exist, and they are normal. Player-fans are just part of the ecosystem, and a board that loves meming as much as ST amplifies them. A lot of the ones who were most vociferous last year have started to calm down. I'd like to say that the energy I put into fighting the conspiracy theories made a difference, but I think the Olympics helped more. People started to see that Wemby's struggles weren't merely a matter of coaching or supporting cast. He's objectively immature and underdeveloped compared to the guy we hope he'll become. A lot of people didn't see that objective situation until the Spurs were taken out of it.
I genuinely haven't noticed any, I think a lot of posts are wrongly interpreted as such. Trust me I've been "victim" () of it many times, with ppl over interpreting my words (on many diff topics btw
Yeah, I also think we forget how Pop dgaf and even in the Big3 era he used the 1st half of the season to play tinkerman. I also suspect him to not be unhappy with Wemby's early season "get over yourself" game even if it was mostly due to lack of fitness and being under the weather for a few days (we've all played like that, you just have no juice).It doesn't have to be used as an excuse, and as I said to another poster, I was quite upset that the Spurs passed up on a top-10 talent to run it back with Branham and Wesley and that they settled into Paul and Barnes over more dramatic moves. You can do both, but the ESPN folks aren't doing that. We'll see if there are a lot of posters on this site to follow suit. Hopefully, the progress we've seen since the second half of the OKC game is real, and Victor continues to take steps to marry his exploration with development meat-and-potatoes skills to allow him to get easy touches and allow the offense to work for everyone.
Thx mate! Better late... ^^so it's [ QUOTE]--- text ---[ /QUOTE] without the spaces. You keeping using the / for both sides, when it's only for the closing part of the excerpt you're quoting
Last edited by Pauleta14; 11-02-2024 at 04:58 PM.
What did I do wrong guy??
I followed what Chinook told me ffs
Asked, and answered.What did I do wrong guy??
I followed what Chinook told me ffs
The season is way too young but I'm optimistic with the young guys figuring it out. Sochan and Wemby together are a force defensively.
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