Should the Spurs Trade for John Collins?

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I’m not pro or against Collins. He’s meh, whatever. I look at it from a role perspective. When you’re acquiring a player you must have a role for them, otherwise what is the point? Same with a ST favourite FA target LaRavia. Where would he play if he signs? You have to offer him a role, otherwise he can choose to go elsewhere.

In this sense the Spurs have a weird problem of having too many wings who would expect minutes, but at the same not being very good. Sochan, Barnes, Keldon, Champ, Bryant, Castle should and probably would play as a 3 some, and so will Vassell. Spurs are ripe for a consolidation type trade, clean up that mess and retain players with more clearly defined roles. The problem is that they also seem interested in preserving their flexibility, as they should, so I wouldn’t expect them to trade for long term contracts or trade any firsts away. I could see a 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 trade where they acquire a player on an expensive but expiring contract. Don’t know who this could be.

So back to Collins, if it’s Keldon for Collins essentially, this doesn’t help clean up the roster at all. They need to do more but they may choose to keep their options and wait until the February deadline.

[jesterbobman]

Voted yes.

He's been part of my ideal offseason plan in the past, mostly as after getting stars, getting minutes to fit a rotation, and having no bad minutes are the ways to generate cheap wins. I think adding a backup C and a high level PF through trade are the key moves, so some combination of an acquisition through trade, and a non tax MLE are key.

I think improving back up C is more important than upgrading PF minutes, and think Collins isn't ideal...but he's probably an OK starter that we can get for Keldon + Utah 2026 2nd + one more second, the price for better fits is probably higher (I'm guessing PJ takes a first). I don't think there's a real option that opens up the le window at a reasonable price, but it's worth giving up something to be more standard good, and move up in to about the play-in.

PF: Laravia (MLE) / John Collins (Trade) / Naz Reid (MLE++) / PF to be named later.
Capela (part of MLE) / BroLo (part of MLE) / Horford (part of MLE) / Kornet (Part of MLE) / Rob Williams(T) / Wendell Carter (T).

There are a big variety of options to get that combo - happy as long as we hit on a combo that can work and gets us to a cohesive roster.

[RC_Drunkford]

Don't get the love for Collins here. I think he is fine. But moving forward, 20mil plus for him? Someone that cannot play center defensively and is well do ented that he cannot play center. Much rather have Gathord for same price.

we are talking about starting PF not back up C. Gafford can't play PF.

Seems like Atlanta couldn’t wait to offload him after they signed him to his extension. My impression was he played well for his contract and once he got paid didn’t give much of a . I was super high on getting Lauri last year and worry he might be the same type of guy.

He played with an injured shooting hand and thus had a down season.

https://www.si.com/nba/hawks/news/ba...-finger-injury

this happened in the 2022/23 season which is the only season where he scored under 15 PPG (besides his rookie season) in his entire career. Due to the injury he only shot 29% from 3 (never shot under 36% from 3 otherwise since 2019) and also had his lowest rebound average as well. That coincided with his contract extension which is why the Hawks traded him. You look at his stats and can clearly see that that season is a complete outlier.

[RC_Drunkford]

That was the impression I got. My thing is that

a) if the Spurs were to invest heavily into a more traditional-big PF, that PF needs to be able to play center. Backup C is a much bigger need than folks seem to think, and that center likely doesn't have the skill-set that makes playing a traditional PF possible in the first place. The Spurs have too many wings and forwards to try to play Wemby and a specific big the bulk of their minutes together. Sochan and Johnson and/or Barnes are all PFs who'd get minutes. No matter what STers want, the Spurs aren't going to severely limit those guys so they can play a situational lineup big minutes every night.

b) Collins might not actually warrant a starting spot and the minutes that come with that. He's not a bad player, but if it comes to putting the best lineup on the floor, he might not be part of that. If he's not part of that, or if he can only be a PF in that lineup for part of his minutes, then he HAS to be able to play center to take advantage of the Wemby-less minutes on the court. It doesn't have to be every game for it to matter. If the pairing doesn't work against 10/29 teams, that can still be almost half the schedule and multiple playoff series where Collins apparently can't play because he can only play next to Wemby, and the match-up doesn't let him do that.

So yeah, that's why I'd much rather the Spurs approach it the other way, where the aim for a backup center with the hopes they can play with Wemby when the need arises and just run a modern PF next to Wemby most of the time. I wouldn't be particularly interested in trading for Collins unless I felt like he was going to be the backup center.

That player does not have to play C. If your starting PF is a 40% 3-point shooter he can play next to Wemby and next to a non-shooting back up big. The roster construction should not be catered to Jeremy Sochan and his non-existant jumpshot. Sochan is quick enough to be able to play SF as well and if his shot doesn't come along then he should keep losing minutes. This is just another one of your cases why the Spurs should sign your favorite player Bobby Portis.

If the Spurs would sign Luke Kornet for the MLE, Collins could play next to him without a problem.

[RC_Drunkford]

I’m not pro or against Collins. He’s meh, whatever. I look at it from a role perspective. When you’re acquiring a player you must have a role for them, otherwise what is the point? Same with a ST favourite FA target LaRavia. Where would he play if he signs? You have to offer him a role, otherwise he can choose to go elsewhere.

In this sense the Spurs have a weird problem of having too many wings who would expect minutes, but at the same not being very good. Sochan, Barnes, Keldon, Champ, Bryant, Castle should and probably would play as a 3 some, and so will Vassell. Spurs are ripe for a consolidation type trade, clean up that mess and retain players with more clearly defined roles. The problem is that they also seem interested in preserving their flexibility, as they should, so I wouldn’t expect them to trade for long term contracts or trade any firsts away. I could see a 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 trade where they acquire a player on an expensive but expiring contract. Don’t know who this could be.

So back to Collins, if it’s Keldon for Collins essentially, this doesn’t help clean up the roster at all. They need to do more but they may choose to keep their options and wait until the February deadline.

Fox/Harper
Castle/Champagnie
Vassell/Sochan/Bryant
Collins/Barnes
Wemby/Kornet

That rotation would be perfectly fine if you ask me. You can have Bryant play spot minutes here and there and have him compete with the other bench wings for playing time.

And if you want to make a splash at the deadline Devin and Barnes contracts equal to 46 million. You'd still have all kind of options.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Fox/Harper
Castle/Champagnie
Vassell/Sochan/Bryant
Collins/Barnes
Wemby/Kornet

That rotation would be perfectly fine if you ask me. You can have Bryant play spot minutes here and there and have him compete with the other bench wings for playing time.

And if you want to make a splash at the deadline Devin and Barnes contracts equal to 46 million. You'd still have all kind of options.

Well I don’t see it as perfectly fine at all. There’s a lot of positional overlap, a lot of shoehorning players into roles they’re not supposed to be in - Sochan isn’t a 3, Champ isn’t a 2, etc.

I’m not saying they wouldn’t go into the season like this, especially if they’re still experimenting, but I find it a huge mess.

Also, why would Kornet want to sign with the Spurs to be capped at 15 minutes a game when he could easily get a better role elsewhere, maybe even as a starter. He’s yet to make real money.

[RC_Drunkford]

Well I don’t see it as perfectly fine at all. There’s a lot of positional overlap, a lot of shoehorning players into roles they’re not supposed to be in - Sochan isn’t a 3, Champ isn’t a 2, etc.

I’m not saying they wouldn’t go into the season like this, especially if they’re still experimenting, but I find it a huge mess.

Also, why would Kornet want to sign with the Spurs to be capped at 15 minutes a game when he could easily get a better role elsewhere, maybe even as a starter. He’s yet to make real money.

these line ups are interchangeable. Devin can play the 2 and Champagnie the 3, etc. You can trade Barnes instead of Keldon and have Keldon play 3 and Sochan at 4 off the bench. You get the point.

Kornet was just an example. You can take Capela instead or whoever. The Spurs can throw the entire MLE at a back up big.

Not signing a starting 4 won‘t stop the shoehorning either. We‘ve been doing this for 6 years anyway.

[T Park]

What’s the price? I voted no because the price would be too steep for a player not on the Spurs timeline that isn’t going to be the difference in winning a championship for this team

the timeline.

Time to be a ing winning team again.

[Chinook]

If John Collins shooting 40% on 4 3PA/GM isn’t a “modern PF”, then I don’t know what qualifies as one

Barnes is also a good three-point shooter. Pretty sure you don't think they're the same player.

[John B]

I would love to get John Collins. But I know that the Spurs don’t normally give up easily on their players. They would rather have Sochan prove himself for the starting 4.

I see them bringing in a backup C though, maybe Capela. Then depends on where they at by trade deadline, tweak or add a player from waivers. Wemby is a magnet for ring chasers (I know they’re far from ringing) but we’ve seen players having the Spurs as their preferred destination including recently KD. So the Spurs will play the long game, wait the River and decide.

[Chinook]

That player does not have to play C. If your starting PF is a 40% 3-point shooter he can play next to Wemby and next to a non-shooting back up big. The roster construction should not be catered to Jeremy Sochan and his non-existant jumpshot. Sochan is quick enough to be able to play SF as well and if his shot doesn't come along then he should keep losing minutes. This is just another one of your cases why the Spurs should sign your favorite player Bobby Portis.

If the Spurs would sign Luke Kornet for the MLE, Collins could play next to him without a problem.

Shooting is not the most important thing when it comes to Wemby's front-court partner. That's why Victor was more effective next to Bassey than Zach. Collins/Wemby might work because Victor takes so much space away that John can survive at PF. Even a normal good backuo center doesn't do that. That people want to treat the non-Wemby minutes as an afterthought boggles my mind. Those are the minutes in which the Spurs were killed. If they'd been even a decent defense during his off time, they would be elite over all.

For me, the plan should be:

1) Get a real 25 MPG center who can play tough interior D and score inside.

2} Plan on Vic getting 33 MPG and play with that center 10 minutes a night.

3) Plan to play modern forwards at PF 38 minutes a game. If you're moving contracts, try to get another combo-forward in the deal.

4) Plan to give a lot of SF minutes to Castle, Vassell and Champagnie

5) Actually coach guys to rotate, get back and box out. Hire Thibs as a defensive consultant.

[LeBowen]

Shooting is not the most important thing when it comes to Wemby's front-court partner.

It might not be the most important thing for Wemby, but it is for the roster as a whole since the front office decided that 2nd/3rd/4th most important players on the roster will be guards who aren't known for their shooting.

That's why Victor was more effective next to Bassey than Zach.

Or maybe it was because Zach was absolute garbage?

That people want to treat the non-Wemby minutes as an afterthought boggles my mind. Those are the minutes in which the Spurs were killed. If they'd been even a decent defense during his off time, they would be elite over all.

For me, the plan should be:

1) Get a real 25 MPG center who can play tough interior D and score inside.

2} Plan on Vic getting 33 MPG and play with that center 10 minutes a night.

3) Plan to play modern forwards at PF 38 minutes a game. If you're moving contracts, try to get another combo-forward in the deal.

4) Plan to give a lot of SF minutes to Castle, Vassell and Champagnie

5) Actually coach guys to rotate, get back and box out. Hire Thibs as a defensive consultant.

This is where we agree except for the last point because we already got defensive assistants.
Claxton+Cam seems like a perfect package and the Nets are surely open to trading them. Washington+Gafford also looks great.

[mo7888]

It might not be the most important thing for Wemby, but it is for the roster as a whole since the front office decided that 2nd/3rd/4th most important players on the roster will be guards who aren't known for their shooting.



Or maybe it was because Zach was absolute garbage?



This is where we agree except for the last point because we already got defensive assistants.
Claxton+Cam seems like a perfect package and the Nets are surely open to trading them. Washington+Gafford also looks great.

Personally, im good with the Brooklyn or Dallas package. I'd go with whichever team values Devin the most since he'd be part of the trade.

[RC_Drunkford]

Shooting is not the most important thing when it comes to Wemby's front-court partner. That's why Victor was more effective next to Bassey than Zach. Collins/Wemby might work because Victor takes so much space away that John can survive at PF. Even a normal good backuo center doesn't do that. That people want to treat the non-Wemby minutes as an afterthought boggles my mind. Those are the minutes in which the Spurs were killed. If they'd been even a decent defense during his off time, they would be elite over all.

For me, the plan should be:

1) Get a real 25 MPG center who can play tough interior D and score inside.

2} Plan on Vic getting 33 MPG and play with that center 10 minutes a night.

3) Plan to play modern forwards at PF 38 minutes a game. If you're moving contracts, try to get another combo-forward in the deal.

4) Plan to give a lot of SF minutes to Castle, Vassell and Champagnie

5) Actually coach guys to rotate, get back and box out. Hire Thibs as a defensive consultant.

see I knew you was going to say this now, but why didn't you say it first? If you are saying instead of a starting PF we should bring in a starting C, so that Victor can play some minutes at PF I get it.

The question is: who is that player? Other than Kornet, Gafford and Claxton I don't see a lot of options. Claxton ain't strong, but mobile enough to guard on the perimeter, so he would work. He'd cost you a first though.

If the plan is to bring in a starting C who can play together with Vic for the first 6 minutes of each half, that means having Barnes/Sochan as a back up would be enough. This is also a reason why I liked the trading up for Maluach idea.

But the fact is that players who can exclusively play PF are cheap on the market right now and Cs are quite expensive. Collins and Aldama cost multiple second rounders. I don't know what the price for Washington is, but it's probably a little bit higher.

Even if you get a starting C, there's no reason not to try and get a starting caliber 4 as well.

The Spurs should try to upgrade players in their rotation regardless. If they don't cost you first round picks, you get those guys. It's much easier to package those players in a consolidation trade for an All-Star later down the line, than to talk teams into trading them here for Keldon Johnson, Harrison Barnes and Malaki Branham. If you can give teams a John Collins, Devin Vassell package they at least get 2 starting caliber players back. Houston just did the same with Dillon Brooks.

Point 5 is redundant, we got Sweeney and Williamson. There's no reason for Thibs to be here.

This is where we agree except for the last point because we already got defensive assistants.
Claxton+Cam seems like a perfect package and the Nets are surely open to trading them. Washington+Gafford also looks great.

exactly, that would basically be killing 2 birds with 1 stone

[Chinook]

It might not be the most important thing for Wemby, but it is for the roster as a whole since the front office decided that 2nd/3rd/4th most important players on the roster will be guards who aren't known for their shooting.



Or maybe it was because Zach was absolute garbage?



This is where we agree except for the last point because we already got defensive assistants.
Claxton+Cam seems like a perfect package and the Nets are surely open to trading them. Washington+Gafford also looks great.

Yes, the Spurs aren't going anywhere if their best players csnt carry their weight in terms of shoot, defense and rebounding. It's why folks shouldn't be trying to make Castle a locked in part of their core. He HAS to be able to shoot, or he can't be a starter. Harper is already a decent off-ball shooter, which is why I'm not worried about him nearly as much. But the Spurs already had great shooting from their starting PF.

Collins doesn't actually suck. He didn't suck with the Spurs or Bulls last year. I'm not going tell everyone he's the best center in the league, but the talent wasn't the issue. It was the lack of vertical threat. Yes, the Spurs now have guards who'll help there. But a big who dives to the rim is more helpful for spacing than one who stands on the perimeter.

They need better defensive assistants. Sweeney was a good start, but the team should be much more aggressive in putting their staff together to give Mitch a chance to succeed. Coaching is the team's biggest weakness, and the organization is still treating it like it's a strength

[RC_Drunkford]

if we go with the "run it back" rotation:

Fox/Harper
Castle/Champagnie
Vassell/Keldon
Barnes/Sochan
Wemby/Biyombo

The Spurs should look to simply upgrade certain rotation pieces. Something like:

Keldon upgrade: 1. RJ Barrett 2. LaRavia

Mamu upgrade: 1. Yabusele

Barnes upgrade: 1. John Collins 2. PJ Washington 3. Santi Aldama 4. Cam Johnson 5. Rui Hachimura

Biyombo upgrade: 1. Claxton 2. Gafford 3. Kornet 4. Brook Lopez 5. Capela

Just see what the best price is for these guys and go get 2 of them. The team should be much better with those additions.

[Dejounte]

if we go with the "run it back" rotation:

Fox/Harper
Castle/Champagnie
Vassell/Keldon
Barnes/Sochan
Wemby/Biyombo

The Spurs should look to simply upgrade certain rotation pieces. Something like:

Keldon upgrade: 1. RJ Barrett 2. LaRavia

Mamu upgrade: 1. Yabusele

Barnes upgrade: 1. John Collins 2. PJ Washington 3. Santi Aldama 4. Cam Johnson 5. Rui Hachimura

Biyombo upgrade: 1. Claxton 2. Gafford 3. Kornet 4. Brook Lopez 5. Capela

Just see what the best price is for these guys and go get 2 of them. The team should be much better with those additions.

Barnes is the FO’s new pet. No way he’s being replaced anytime soon. He’ll be pushed down by a player significantly better than him but otherwise he probably remains as the starter. The upgrade I’m anticipating is a Vassell one or a Biyombo one, maybe both.

[ginobilized]

if we go with the "run it back" rotation:

Fox/Harper
Castle/Champagnie
Vassell/Keldon
Barnes/Sochan
Wemby/Biyombo

The Spurs should look to simply upgrade certain rotation pieces. Something like:

Keldon upgrade: 1. RJ Barrett 2. LaRavia

Mamu upgrade: 1. Yabusele

Barnes upgrade: 1. John Collins 2. PJ Washington 3. Santi Aldama 4. Cam Johnson 5. Rui Hachimura

Biyombo upgrade: 1. Claxton 2. Gafford 3. Kornet 4. Brook Lopez 5. Capela

Just see what the best price is for these guys and go get 2 of them. The team should be much better with those additions.

Did you forget Bryant or do you not think he'll get time with the SA squad this season?

[Dejounte]

Pencil Barnes in the rotation for 20 minutes minimum, whether as a starter or a backup (if they find someone, which I doubt. Or if Sochan has vastly improved)

[RC_Drunkford]

Did you forget Bryant or do you not think he'll get time with the SA squad this season?

I think he's basically competing with Champagnie as 10th man and that's a good thing. It's ok to have guys at the end of the roster competing for playing time. I'm not set on having 10 good players and that's it. There should be some guys in the back end who can slide up once we make a trade.

[RC_Drunkford]

by the way the Spurs own the 2026 Utah Jazz second round pick. With the Jazz tanking again for AJ Dybantsa, that should be one in the early 30s and would give us at least a little more leverage in the John Collins sweepstakes.

[LeBowen]

Collins doesn't actually suck. He didn't suck with the Spurs or Bulls last year

I honestly don't know what to tell you if you actually believe in this.

[T Park]

I honestly don't know what to tell you if you actually believe in this.

Zach Collins played VERY well for the Bulls.

[scott]

Barnes is also a good three-point shooter. Pretty sure you don't think they're the same player.

I don’t think they are the same player and I’m not sure where you would imply that.

John Collins does PF things with a PF body. He also shoots 40% from 3. It’s the combination of these things, rather than just simply his 3P%, that makes hi what I would call a “modern PF”.

Harrison Barnes is not the same player as John Collins because, despite their similar 3P%, they play very differently. Collins does PF things that Barnes does not. Barnes does SF things that Collins does not. But I don’t want Collins to play SF, I want him to play PF.

I cannot believe that this had to be explained.

But, for the sake of the discussion, maybe you can explain what a “traditional PF” is and what a “modern PF” is in this context. I ask because following the logic of your post, you made the assertion that if a player is a “traditional PF” he must also play center. You then talk about how Collins can’t play center (which I think most people agree with outside of very specific small ball lineups). This would seem to imply that you think Collins is a “traditional PF”. You then say you prefer that would prefer to play a “Modern PF” next to Wemby, suggesting that you don’t view Collins as a “Modern PF”.

So… what is a Traditional PF and what is a Modern PF? Because to many of us, Collins looks like a modern PF. The proposed acquisition of him would be to play that role, not to play “Traditional PF” or C.

I think your logical premise is a good one we should talk about: “If Player is a Trad PF, then Player also must be a C, otherwise Player must be a Modern PF.” Yep, I’m on board with that… let’s agree on that! But now that leaves us with talking about who qualifies as these things. I agree that John Collins is not a C. I don’t agree that John Collins is a “trad PF” and not a “Modern PF”. Let’s talk about that.

[LeBowen]

Zach Collins played VERY well for the Bulls.

Maybe on offense.
His defense is so bad that he'd need to be on Vucevic's level on offense to not be a net negative.