Really...Ginobili is a Liability

[vander]

manu IS a liability at this point, and POP too, WTF? big minutes for horry and vaughn? pulling guys out after they hit a 3, keeping bowen on the bench when Kobe was going off in game one...

Manu is basically Finley right now: average D, can't create his own shot, but might get hot from the 3 point line. pop needs to figure out who in ON from range and let them play. at no point should both Parker and Duncan be on the bench, we need one of them to run the offense through.

[Spurminator]

Thanks for the box scores. I've watched those games several times but it's good to know there are numbers that go along with them.

You do realize that a team's score is the sum of the scoring output of its individual players, right? You're suggesting Duncan could have won the 2005 Finals without Manu?

We Spurs fans appreciate the contributions of all of the Spurs to the Championships they've won for our pleasure. Bowen won us three Championships. Parker won us three Championships. Duncan won us four. Manu won us three.

[ElNono]

So let me get this straight... We put Finley or Barry, both being a bigger defensive liability than Manu, so they can shoot contested treys. The Lakers rarely double up on Duncan, so it's not like we get wide open looks (those wide open treys Manu did hit last series).
Since you like numbers, tell me: Who has the better shooting percentage, by Far, between Ginobili, Finley and Barry?

[Deuces88]

Yes, Manu is really a liability. Then, let Manu back to Argentina!

If we could get a consistent shooting guard to replace Manu, I'd be very pleased. Imagine if Rip replaced Manu. LOL

I find it funny that because I am mad at Manu, people say I'm a bandwagon. How is giving improvements showing me as a bandwagon fan? I said I'm a Duncan fan and I support his team. I want Duncan to win another ring and game 2 was similar to game 1, except Manu and a few others sabotaged the chances of winning from the tip-off.

[SRJ]

2005 Finals

Game 1
Duncan, 24 points (10-22 FG), 17 rebounds, 2 blocked shots, 2 assists, 3 TO
Ginobili, 26 points (10-16 FG), 9 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 TO

Game 2
Duncan, 18 points (5-10), 11 rebounds, 4 blocked shots, 1 assist, 2 TO
Ginobili, 27 points (6-8), 3 rebounds, 7 assists, 3 TO

Game 3
Duncan, 14 points (5-15), 10 rebounds, 1 blocked shot, 4 assist, 2 TO
Ginobili, 7 points (2-6), 4 rebounds, 6 TO

Game 4
Duncan, 16 points (5-17), 16 rebounds, 3 blocked shots, 2 assist, 3 TO
Ginobili, 12 points (4-9), 4 rebounds, 1 blocked shot, 3 assist, 2 TO

Game 5
Duncan, 26 points (11-24), 19 rebounds, 2 blocked shots, 2 assist, 2 TO
Ginobili, 15 points (5-16), 6 rebounds, 9 assist, 2 TO

Game 6
Duncan, 21 points (8-14), 15 rebounds, 1 blocked shot, 1 assist
Ginobili, 21 points (7-17), 10 rebounds, 3 assist, 3 TO
Game 7
Duncan, 25 points (10-27), 11 rebounds, 2 blocked shots, 3 assist, 5 TO
Ginobili, 23 points (8-13), 5 rebounds, 4 assist, 3 TO

Ginobili: 36 MPG, 18.7 ppg, 49.4% FG%, 5.8 rpg, 4 apg, 3.3 TO
Duncan: 40.7 MPG, 20.6 ppg, 41.4% FG%, 14 rpg, 2 apg, 2.1 TO
Parker: 38.1 MPG, 13.9 PPG, 45.8% FG%, 2.4 RPG, 3.4 APG, 3.1 TO

I made a few additions to your chosen stat lines. You chose to lionize Parker earlier, so here now you can see that Ginobili had very much more to do with that 05 win than Parker did despite being 4th in minutes played in those Finals (Bowen was 3rd). Manu was actually more efficient at scoring than Tim was during that series.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

[QUOTE=Deuces88;2534450]Kid, again regular season means nothing. If you're not going to be consistent in the playoffs, what's the point?

it seems you dont understand the failure you have put yourself into... let me explain...

Anyone who thinks Manu is a good ball handler, just leave the forum now because you've never watched a full Spurs game ever. You've probably only seen snippets of some games.

I'm pretty sure I've watched more games of basketball than you. I'm way older than you. Manu is a great ball handler for a SG. Now with a bad ankle you arent really effective but if you have ever watched any full game you can't even contest he's a good ballhandler. you are just a hater.

Box Scores tell the full story. The only thing it leaves out are the intangibles which are mainly defensive. I already know from watching Manu that he's not a defensive presence. He's simply a scorer and turnover machine. When he doesn't score, he brings us nothing. Plain and simple.

I lol'ed at this

For the last time, just because a person makes 1-2 good play down the stretch doesn't mean he played a good game.

manu has won more medals and achievements than many players in the NBA, in and out of the States. Theres a reason why he's a proven winner - call it whatever you want.

By the logic of you re s, I can have a 1-50 shooting day with 20 turnovers but as long as the one shot I made was a clutch shot to win, then I played a good game and carried the team. LOL!

I also lol'ed at this.

And by the way, you are too young to call me kid. you are pretty much nothing.

[timvp]

Really...Ginobili is a champion

Fixed.

[ballhog]

He's in a funk. Don't know if it's LA's defense helping with that. Sasha is constantly mugging him (no calls) and he can't seem to get moving at all. Overall though, the whole team is sucking but I think they feed off Manu and play better when he does.

[Spurminator]

Imagine if Rip replaced Manu. LOL

LOL indeed.

Fraud.

[Deuces88]

Thanks for the box scores. I've watched those games several times but it's good to know there are numbers that go along with them.

You do realize that a team's score is the sum of the scoring output of its individual players, right? You're suggesting Duncan could have won the 2005 Finals without Manu?

We Spurs fans appreciate the contributions of all of the Spurs to the Championships they've won for our pleasure. Bowen won us three Championships. Parker won us three Championships. Duncan won us four. Manu won us three.

What's with this re ed logic. OMG, you did not suggest that anyone else BUT Duncan won the championships in 99 and 03. Those 2 years was 100% Duncan. Manu and Tony were inconsistent as you could possibly be. 05, Duncan had help but there is a reason he was the f*cking Finals MVP. 07, Duncan and Parker won it together.

All Manu really does, on good nights, is make the shots he's supposed to make. also, Finley and Manu are basically the same on defense. Finley is unfortunately matched up against bigger men most of the time. Manu can't do a better job guarding Finley's guys. Both are basically non-existent on the defensive end anyway.

[duncan228]

I'm the biggest Duncan homer on this board and even I know how vital Manu was in the '05 le. As great as Duncan was, without Manu the Spurs don't have that Championship.

[Deuces88]

Somebody just got owned

Except, Duncan still produced more offensively and defensively. What you don't understand is that Duncan may have a lot of shot attempts but that's usually on one possession, because Duncan is good enough to get offensive rebounds. Can Manu? Nope!

The stats still agree and what's that? Duncan was the Finals MVP? Not Manu?

Oh you just owned yourself, moron

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I find it funny that because I am mad at Manu, people say I'm a bandwagon. How is giving improvements showing me as a bandwagon fan? I said I'm a Duncan fan and I support his team. I want Duncan to win another ring and game 2 was similar to game 1, except Manu and a few others sabotaged the chances of winning from the tip-off.

Part of the ownage you have put yourself into at this point is the gact that people arent bashing you because you are mad at manu, its because you got it all wrong from the beginning calling manu a bad player and dismissing his accomplishments.

Any serious Spurs fan nows better... it doesnt seem you are one.

Please stop the bleeding and the failure.

[duncan228]

The Finals MVP vote in '05 was 6-4, Duncan over Manu. It easily could have been co-MVP's.

[Spurminator]

All Manu really does, on good nights, is make the shots he's supposed to make.

Fraud.

[Spurminator]

I'm the biggest Duncan homer on this board and even I know how vital Manu was in the '05 le. As great as Duncan was, without Manu the Spurs don't have that Championship.

Nor without Duncan, nor without Parker, nor without Horry, nor without Bowen.

[Deuces88]

wow we have a winner..I thought Spursdynasty was stupid

Well let's see. Manu is a scorer. That's it. Nothing else.

When he scores high, is it because he's making tough shots? Actually, it's because he's making the open shots.

Mind you, hand in your face or having a defender be 2 ft away from you counts as open. Hand in the face does nothing and does not count as contested. The layups Manu makes are the same layups Parker makes except Parker makes them more consistently.

[Spurminator]

I mean there are some classically bad takes here. It's almost brilliant really. This is good trolling.

Kudos.

[Deuces88]

well said

and let not forget Bruce guarding Chauncy in game 7 down the stretch too!

Quoting yourself and putting my nick on it. So what does that prove? It proves you quoted yourself. Nice job!

Horry making a big shot, but camping the rest of the game means nothing. If instead of him, we had a person who was actually a presence on the court, then we wouldn't be down at the time.

[duncan228]

and let not forget Bruce guarding Chauncy in game 7 down the stretch too!

Nor without Duncan, nor without Parker, nor without Horry, nor without Bowen

It takes a team, no one wins it alone. I was just addressing the Manu/Duncan part of the conversation.

[Deuces88]

how did I get owned? YOu act like I care that Tim was finals mvp..sorry my life doesn't revolve around Tim winning a finals MVP like yours does..you are so pathetic that you are trying to talk smack through Tim's accomplishments like you had anything to do with it!

I mention his accomplishments because his accomplishment pushed them to rings. You suck Manu's when all he does is make open shots.

If you're going to fellatio someone, at least do it to a person who is outstanding.

You guys are afraid to talk ill of Manu even when he does bad, which means you would fellatio him non-stop. Unlike you, if Duncan does bad, I'll call it out because there is no reason to excuse bad playing.

[SRJ]

Except, Duncan still produced more offensively and defensively. What you don't understand is that Duncan may have a lot of shot attempts but that's usually on one possession, because Duncan is good enough to get offensive rebounds.

Well, let's examine that particular scenario.

If Duncan had ORB'd every one of his missed shots and made them (not likely), then we can assume that's just as good as making the shot in the first place. Therefore, we subtract 33 FGA's from Duncan's 05 totals, giving him 54 (FGM) out of 96 (FGA) for a percentage of .563.

To be fair, we'd have to do the same for Manu, so he would get 42 out of 77 for a percentage of .545.

BUT WAIT - we're not done. Tim did not attempt (or make, obviously) any threes, whereas Manu was 12 for 31 (.387). If you convert that to a 2-point percentage, that becomes .581. Tim was also 36/54 on FTs, Manu was 35/41.

Manu was more efficient at scoring in the 2005 Finals. No amount of spin from you can change that.

[MarceloM!]

turnover machine? What the is he good for? isn't a presence on defense ?
He's a poor ball handler ? big three is a ing myth ? the guy is finished ?
Besides the scoring, what does Manu have?

Who are you guys? are you Spurs fans? what a kind of fans are you! you looks like losers!!!

Go spurs Go, go Manu go!!!

[mikekim]

1) Regular season averages don't mean crap. As I said I'm a Duncan fan and I support Duncan's team. You bandwagon fans trying to act like you know something. LeBron averaged 30 points in the regular season. Did it matter in the playoffs? NO!

2) Driving when there's pressure leads to turnovers? Chris Paul would disagree since he averages only like 1 turnover a game. I won't compare though because as I said Ginobili is a turnover machine and Chris Paul is a superb PG.

3) Injury is not an excuse. Many players play with injury and do better than this. He's simply a scorer and if he's not scoring, WHY HAVE HIM OUT THERE? You know why Finley and Barry would be better at that point? Because they are more reliable at making the open trey. Duncan is going to get doubled, so Finley/Barry or Bowen will be open.

Let me tell you something. When Manu drives, he doesn't have a plan, which is why he throws the ball away so much. He just drives and if he gets pressured he just tosses it away. That's not the quality of a good, consistent scorer. Yea, he can have good nights when he scores and gets to the rim, but when he has an off scoring night, what good is he?

Answer me that one question: When he doesn't have a good scoring night, what good is he?

If Bowen is off for 3's, he still has his excellent defense. When Duncan is off, we have his excellent rebounding and defense. When Parker is off, he passes and gets his assists up.

Manu's versatility rivals that of Duncan's. Maybe not quite equal, but he's the Duncan of the perimeter...when he's healthy.

A healthy Manu can shoot 3 for 16 for the night and come up with 8 steals to get a win over the Lakers

A healthy Manu can rack up 14 assists when his shot isn't falling.

A healthy Manu carries us to back to back wins with 37 point dominance when no one else is available/able.

Yes, his defense can be lacking at times, but get your head straight. Manu gets it done. That's what he brings to the team.

He's majorly injured right now. I'd argue he's maybe even hovering around 50-60% health-wise right now.

Quit saying idiotic things and just realize he's hurt...and giving everything he's got. That's his job. It's up to Pop to limit him or make the decision to rest him or use someone else.

[SRJ]

come on you can't use logic with him..he wants to give Tim fellatio!

True, but it's sometimes fun to respond to a troll with sincerity.