Jordan Quotes

[oligarchy]

I watched those games back in the day and I've watched them again on DVD and ESPN Classic. And your assessment of 80's/90's basketball is a huge sack of wrong. Team defense, along with the legalization of the zone, make it harder to score today than in the 80's and early 90's.

Michael is the greatest or second greatest player ever (along with Wilt), but he's average a few less points in today's game.

Sincerely,
TC

I hope you are kidding there.

[stretch]

Oh really now? how many players are going to average a shade under 20 ppg and 10 rpg per game EVERY YEAR? NOT MANY. The ones who do are coveted my friend. His worst year was 18 ppg (17.6) and 7 Rpg (7.4) just under 3 assists per game and roughly 2 blks per game (1.7).

Rodman-worst year- with at least 30 mins per game

11 Rpg 2 Ppg-.5 stl.pg roughly, .5 blk.pg roughly.
can't be argued for being on the decline b/c the next year his stats were better. I won't leave out all the Defensive accolades either, 1st team etc.

Rodman has rings? Yes. Lets not forget about who he played with. The stacked Bad Boys squad who gave the Bulls the business and the Lakers. He had Isiah, Joe D, Vin the Microwave, Bill Lamb, it goes on and on. Other ring team? MJ and Scottie. Non- ring teams? David Robinson-
Gasol can be built around. Where Rodman is someone who caps off your team, the extra cherry on top. History shows it.
There are players comparable to Rodman. Ben Wallace, Charles Oakley to name a few. Sure Gasol is the Cherry right now but he can be built around and was. Just so happens his team never had a second man. Sorry, Mike Miller is a third man.

Lets see who Gasol had to play with. Mike Miller, Stromile Swift, Brian Cardinal, Jason Williams, a young Drew Gooden and Shane battier. Damn, they are certainly comparable to MJ and Scottie, or, Isiah and JD, or even David Robinson. He had to face Timmy in the playoffs multiple times and of course Timmy kills b/c Timmy is the man. The Griz also had nobody aside from MM who actually did work in the Playoffs. Put Rodman as your centerpiece and see how far you get. A player like Rodman will never be built around.

I'm Glad 7fts with massive wingspans, excellent touch, great passer who can get you roughly 20 and ten per game are just everywhere. Oh, he can also face up and drive as a 7ft is this true? Oh, he can also handle the rock a bit as a 7ft? He's def soft, there is no debating that and i'm not saying he's great. But lets not act like Rodman was the only player who could filled his type of role.

How many GMs out there are going to build a team around D-Rodor a guy like him? Go ask Chi town if they paid too much for Ben wallace, they' ll tell you.

(For the record I love Rodman, I just enjoy playing Devils Advocate. Fun debate this could be. My points do have value.)

Great argument, although to be fair, I didn't really read any of it. I got the gist after the first couple words and a quick skim.

My point, is that Rodman brings things to the table that not many players in NBA history has been able to bring, in the manner that he does. He is a lockdown defender with versatility of defending numerous positions, and one of the greatest defenders ever, period. He is one of the greatest rebounders on both ends of the court, of all time. He is among the greatest hustler/dirty work players the NBA has evers seen. What great things does Pau Gasol do? He has some nice post moves. So does Tim Duncan... only better. He has a decent mid-range jumper. So does Kevin Garnett... only better. He is a good foreign player. So is Dirk... only better. There is nothing that really stands out significantly about Gasol, and he will never go down as an all-time great at anything other than perhaps softness and screaming at the top of his lungs every time he gets remotely touched when under the basket, to try to draw attention for a non-existent foul, when whines when they call nothing.

When building a team, you can find a number of players that do things that Gasol does, but are far superior. Tim Duncan is basically a Gasol x10. He does everything Gasol can do, only better. Plus he is not soft, and plays great defense. How many players in NBA history however, can do what Rodman does? For his size and position, he is hands down the greatest rebounder ever. His willingness to hustle on defense and do dirty work is unsurpassed. He might not have scored a lot of points, but his ability to do clean-up work allows more room for error for other scorers on the team, and can result in easy buckets.

Sorry, but Rodman is 100000x more of a unique player than Gasol will ever be, and I guarantee any good basketball mind will say what he brings to the table is extremely unique and more significant and harder to find/replace than what Gasol brings.

[stretch]

and i never said anything about building a team around them. I just said if you are building a team, then Rodman is a more useful piece than Gasol.

and fact is, if you are building a team around Gasol, then you are simply destined for failure. so im not sure why you would even want to have a debate about that.

[Spur-Addict]

Great argument, although to be fair, I didn't really read any of it. I got the gist after the first couple words and a quick skim.

My point, is that Rodman brings things to the table that not many players in NBA history has been able to bring, in the manner that he does. He is a lockdown defender with versatility of defending numerous positions, and one of the greatest defenders ever, period. He is one of the greatest rebounders on both ends of the court, of all time. He is among the greatest hustler/dirty work players the NBA has evers seen. What great things does Pau Gasol do? He has some nice post moves. So does Tim Duncan... only better. He has a decent mid-range jumper. So does Kevin Garnett... only better. He is a good foreign player. So is Dirk... only better. There is nothing that really stands out significantly about Gasol, and he will never go down as an all-time great at anything other than perhaps softness and screaming at the top of his lungs every time he gets remotely touched when under the basket, to try to draw attention for a non-existent foul, when whines when they call nothing.

When building a team, you can find a number of players that do things that Gasol does, but are far superior. Tim Duncan is basically a Gasol x10. He does everything Gasol can do, only better. Plus he is not soft, and plays great defense. How many players in NBA history however, can do what Rodman does? For his size and position, he is hands down the greatest rebounder ever. His willingness to hustle on defense and do dirty work is unsurpassed. He might not have scored a lot of points, but his ability to do clean-up work allows more room for error for other scorers on the team, and can result in easy buckets.

Sorry, but Rodman is 100000x more of a unique player than Gasol will ever be, and I guarantee any good basketball mind will say what he brings to the table is extremely unique and more significant and harder to find/replace than what Gasol brings.

Unique doesn't mean better. Also, I already named players who are like Rodman but you said you didn't read the post. Wallace, Oakley etc.

Rodman-Better Defender, Better rebounder
Gasol-Better Scorer, Good rebounder, great passer-Better Shot Blocker

We aren't comparing Gasol to other players except Rodman. If you wanna compare Rodman we can, starting with Wallace and Oakley. Believe me, I love Rodman more than Gasol, but there is no way i'm building around Rodman instead of Gasol. Every team that has won championships in the history of the league has won with a Big man except the 90's Bulls and the 80's Pistons. Based on the obvious overwhelming history, i'm taking the post man.

[dbreiden83080]

Jordan was very smart and slick. He did not get along with a lot of his teammates over the years and he openly hated his GM but he would always make sure to cozy up to the star players in the league at that time, like Barkley, Ewing, Bird, Magic and when the lights were on he was on his best behavior. Always wearing suits in public, making sure his image was as squeaky clean as possible so he would get all the endorsement deals. Plus he was so great and won so much, little thiings that came out about him were largely swept under the rug. Privately i don't think there is any question Jordan was a different guy then what we saw in public.

[dbreiden83080]

No.

Maybe not 45 but he put 30 up a game consistanly while still making his team better and winning les in an era where the physical D was much different.

[dbreiden83080]

Funny thing about that is, it was not really Jordan's fault. Kwame was just another one of those super-talented kids that everyone was high on that had no stomach for the pro-game. Once upon a time eveyone thought, Michael Olowokandi was going to be great too.

[monosylab1k]

Funny thing about that is, it was not really Jordan's fault. Kwame was just another one of those super-talented kids that everyone was high on that had no stomach for the pro-game. Once upon a time eveyone thought, Michael Olowokandi was going to be great too.

And that draft was full of HS busts. Eddy Curry is Oliver Miller 2.0, Tyson Chandler has no actual basketball skills beyond being able to jump really high, and DeSagana Diop was awful until he figured out how to play some defense.

Actually Kwame is probably the most complete player out of all the high school kids in that year's draft, but unlike the others, he wasn't good enough at one particular skill (Curry - post offense, Chandler - rebounds & catching alley-oops, Diop - blocking shots) to carve out a niche and have some sort of value on an NBA team.

[stretch]

Unique doesn't mean better. Also, I already named players who are like Rodman but you said you didn't read the post. Wallace, Oakley etc.

Rodman-Better Defender, Better rebounder
Gasol-Better Scorer, Good rebounder, great passer-Better Shot Blocker

We aren't comparing Gasol to other players except Rodman. If you wanna compare Rodman we can, starting with Wallace and Oakley. Believe me, I love Rodman more than Gasol, but there is no way i'm building around Rodman instead of Gasol. Every team that has won championships in the history of the league has won with a Big man except the 90's Bulls and the 80's Pistons. Based on the obvious overwhelming history, i'm taking the post man.

My argument was never about building around someone. It was just about pieces to build a team. Rodman would be a better role player to have than Gasol. and besides, as i said before, if you are building a team around Gasol, then your team probably wont be very good, and you are just destined for failiure. both guys are role players. so why would you argue about who you would want your #1 guy to be, if neither is a #1 type of guy?

[Spur-Addict]

My argument was never about building around someone. It was just about pieces to build a team. Rodman would be a better role player to have than Gasol. and besides, as i said before, if you are building a team around Gasol, then your team probably wont be very good, and you are just destined for failiure.

Destined for failure with no second option. Are role players better than Center pieces?...Nope, that's why they are called ROLE PLAYERS. Rodman can't lead a team to the playoffs. He can push a team over the edge, but so can Gasol. Gasol is more complete, Rodman is one sided. Great role player at that, one of the better role players ever. But, lets remember what we are comparing here. Rodman is what he is b/c he doesn't have the ability to be a Center piece.

[Kriz-Maxima]

And Gasol does?

[stretch]

Destined for failure with no second option. Are role players better than Center pieces?...Nope, that's why they are called ROLE PLAYERS. Rodman can't lead a team to the playoffs. He can push a team over the edge, but so can Gasol. Gasol is more complete, Rodman is one sided. Great role player at that, one of the better role players ever. But, lets remember what we are comparing here. Rodman is what he is b/c he doesn't have the ability to be a Center piece.

Gasol doesnt either. So what is your point?

In fact, I didn't understand the reasoning behind this entire post. I said basically what you said... that both of these guys are role players and not capable of leading teams.

IMO, I think Rodman is a more unique role player and the type of role he plays is harder to find throughout NBA history, than Gasol. You can find plenty of good offensive low post role players in history that are far superior to Gasol. Kevin McHale is one that easily stands out. But how many dirty work players can you find that compare to Rodman? NOT ONE. And you are nuts if you say Ben Wallace or Charles Oakley.

Dennis Rodman is the model for all players who hope to make their place in the NBA by doing dirty work. He is the golden standard, by far.

On the other hand, who the wants to have low post scoring talent, but not much else, and not even utilize it to their fullest due to issues with being extremely soft? (which sums up Pau Gasol)

[stretch]

And Gasol does?

you read my mind, lol

[Spur-Addict]

you read my mind, lol

Gasol led his team to the playoffs more than one tiime. In the WEST AT THAT!!! Rodman can never lead a team to the playoffs, EVER.

[dbreiden83080]

And that draft was full of HS busts. Eddy Curry is Oliver Miller 2.0, Tyson Chandler has no actual basketball skills beyond being able to jump really high, and DeSagana Diop was awful until he figured out how to play some defense.

Actually Kwame is probably the most complete player out of all the high school kids in that year's draft, but unlike the others, he wasn't good enough at one particular skill (Curry - post offense, Chandler - rebounds & catching alley-oops, Diop - blocking shots) to carve out a niche and have some sort of value on an NBA team.

Which is why i am glad now they have to go to college for at least 1 year. Too many drafts where it is hard to project how a 18 year old kid will develop. They are men playing with boys at the high school level, then they go pro and they get destroyed usually for a year or so and either pick themselves up and get better or totally fall apart.

[DarrinS]

No matter what MJ has ever said, he will always be universally loved and admired while you can't say the same for "the black mamba".

My condolenses to the OP.

[dbreiden83080]

Wasn't there an article about Kobe that just came out that said everyone in the league basically hates his ass because he is such an arrogant jerk?? Jordan at least had friends in the NBA, he was tight with most of the stars of his day.

[stretch]

Gasol led his team to the playoffs more than one tiime. In the WEST AT THAT!!! Rodman can never lead a team to the playoffs, EVER.

And it all ended up in first round sweeps, which ultimately means he accomplished... well, nothing. Why? Because he is a role player and has no place being a #1 option. So that really doesn't help your argument in any way, shape, or form.

But if you wanna use a lame point that really doesnt help your argument much, then I will use one... 5 >>>>> 0. Thus Rodman >>>>> Gasol.

[balli]

As far as the whole Gasol/Rodman debate goes, I don't even think it's close. I'd take Rodman over Gasol without even thinking twice. Rodman had a stretch where he averaged 12, 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 16 rebounds in consecutive seasons. Chuck Daly has called him the most tireless player he over coached. His work-ethic during his early years is legendary. He shot a great FG%. His defense was ferocious. I know, I watched Dennis Rodman punk and get into Karl Malone's head so many times that it isn't even easy to think about.

Basically, Rodman brought everything intangible to the table that a team needs to win. If I could assemble a team of twelve players throughout history, Rodman would easily be one of them, , he'd probably be a starter.

Get Gasol out of here. He's a fine player, but don't even think for a second that the things he does translate into wins as much as the things that Dennis Rodman did.

[stretch]

As far as the whole Gasol/Rodman debate goes, I don't even think it's close. I'd taken Rodman over Gasol without even thinking twice. Rodman had a stretch where he averaged 12, 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 16 rebounds in consecutive seasons. Chuck Daly has called him the most tireless player he over coached. His work-ethic during his early years is legendary. He shot a great FG%. His defense was ferocious.

Basically, Rodman brought everything intangible to the table that a team needs to win. If I could assemble a team of twelve players throughout history, Rodman would easily be one of them, , he'd probably be a starter.

Get Gasol out of here. He's a fine player, but don't even think for a second that the things he does translate into wins as much as the things that Dennis Rodman did.

I couldn't agree more. Rodman does the stuff and junk plays that the stars dont wanna do, and they dont have to expend energy on it either because they have Rodman doing those things. There are so many ways that Rodman contributes to his team, its not even funny. More than many of these so called "superstars" in the league, who get that le of "superstar" or an all-star berth, just because they score globs of points. In the end, what is it that always wins championships? The team with superior rebounding, defense, and teamwork. ALWAYS. Rodman contributes to all of those things, and does so extremely well. Gasol is an okay rebounder, but doesnt play defense for crap, and im not saying hes not a team player because he is, but he doesnt really improve teamwork in any way either.

[Spur-Addict]

I couldn't agree more. Rodman does the stuff and junk plays that the stars dont wanna do, and they dont have to expend energy on it either because they have Rodman doing those things. There are so many ways that Rodman contributes to his team, its not even funny. More than many of these so called "superstars" in the league, who get that le of "superstar" or an all-star berth, just because they score globs of points. In the end, what is it that always wins championships? The team with superior rebounding, defense, and teamwork. ALWAYS. Rodman contributes to all of those things, and does so extremely well. Gasol is an okay rebounder, but doesnt play defense for crap, and im not saying hes not a team player because he is, but he doesnt really improve teamwork in any way either.

Now I see what i'm arguing with. Anyways...


1.) Players who aren't role players are better than role players.

2.) Pau Gasol= not Role Player (anytime you lead a franchise to the playoffs w/o a second option more than one time you are not a role player)

3.) Dennis Rodman= Role Player

Therefore, Pau Gasol is better than Dennis Rodman
(ppl)

Now, if i'm looking for a specific type of player for an already good team, then D-Rod may be the better choice. But, if I have no players and i'm not sure who else will be available, because frankly, that's how you truly evaluate players, Head up, i'm taking Pau.

[Spur-Addict]

As far as the whole Gasol/Rodman debate goes, I don't even think it's close. I'd take Rodman over Gasol without even thinking twice. Rodman had a stretch where he averaged 12, 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 16 rebounds in consecutive seasons. Chuck Daly has called him the most tireless player he over coached. His work-ethic during his early years is legendary. He shot a great FG%. His defense was ferocious. I know, I watched Dennis Rodman punk and get into Karl Malone's head so many times that it isn't even easy to think about.

Basically, Rodman brought everything intangible to the table that a team needs to win. If I could assemble a team of twelve players throughout history, Rodman would easily be one of them, , he'd probably be a starter.

Get Gasol out of here. He's a fine player, but don't even think for a second that the things he does translate into wins as much as the things that Dennis Rodman did.

Where will he start at? PF? who will he Stop from getting major stats in a seven game series ? Bird? Timmy? I mean really, get real man.

[stretch]

Now I see what i'm arguing with. Anyways...


1.) Players who aren't role players are better than role players.

2.) Pau Gasol= not Role Player (anytime you lead a franchise to the playoffs w/o a second option more than one time you are not a role player)

3.) Dennis Rodman= Role Player

Therefore, Pau Gasol is better than Dennis Rodman
(ppl)

Now, if i'm looking for a specific type of player for an already good team, then D-Rod may be the better choice. But, if I have no players and i'm not sure who else will be available, because frankly, that's how you truly evaluate players, Head up, i'm taking Pau.

Oh really?

Pau hasn't finished his career yet, but as of now, Rodman has shown to be the better player.

I could go on and debate more of your ty points, but I will just leave it at this, as now everyone sees the ignorance I have wasted my time debating with. Besides, all of those points have already been covered in previous posts of mine. Shows how much you actually read before posting that .

Fail.

[balli]

1.) Players who aren't role players are better than role players.

Not true. I'd rather have plenty of defensive guys, Battier, Artest, Bowen, etc over many so-called franchise stars Vince, Gilbert, Baron Davis.

2.) Pau Gasol= not Role Player (anytime you lead a franchise to the playoffs w/o a second option more than one time you are not a role player)

I think Mike Miller, a still good Jason Williams and Bonzi Wells, Shane Battier and James Posey take offense.

3.) Dennis Rodman= Role Player

Probably the best "role player" ever.

If it comes down to a sub-par star who will never carry a team past the 1st round, or the best role player ever, I'm taking Rodman, I don't care who else is on the team.

Nuff said-

[balli]

Where will he start at? PF? who will he Stop from getting major stats in a seven game series ? Bird? Timmy? I mean really, get real man.

Are you kidding me? At his peak Karl Malone was if not the best, one of the best ever at PF and I watched Rodman absolutely decimate him. There were times Malone got his, but more often than not Rodman owned Karl Malone when Malone was at his absolute best. I'd put Rodman on anyone you could name and I guarantee they'd be bothered and taken out of their game.