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I have no idea, but how many quadrupple doubles did they get
Robinson was a great player, but Dream and Shaq are both better players.
Give me any one of those three in their prime any day of the week.
I have no idea, but how many quadrupple doubles did they get
pretty much.You take the top 6-8 centers in history and subract their best attribute and give them all to one player, and you would come up with Hakeem. Saying that Robinson was not as good as Hakeem is not an insult to Robinson. The comparison in itself is similair to Laker fans comparing Kobe to Jordan. Kobe is our guy, but Lakers fans know that Jordan was the best!
Man, just think if Jordan had played for the Lakers... even Jesus would be beneath him
This argument confirms that your are but mere sheeple.You confusing individual play with team play. Sure, the games were close, but the matchup of Hakeem vs Robinson was a slaughter. Infact, never before in the history of any sport has a player led his team to the most wins in a season, given the MVP award, and the same day get outplayed so bad. Except for maybe Dirk. You saw the video, Robinson is still dizzy from the "DREAM SHAKE."
Basketball is a team sport.
Chew on this; as good as Jordan was, if he hadn't been surrounded with 3pt specialists and a complimentary all-star player he would have attained as many NBA championships as Charles Barkley. Or maybe just 1 or 2... definitely not 6.
Would that have made him any less great talent-wise?
Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-09-2008 at 10:22 PM.
Half of Robinson's career was played on a bad back. That would be like suggesting that Grant Hill or Penny Hardaway were mediocre ballers by arbitrarily gauging their play only after their injuries. Fact of the matter was that they were All-NBA 1st Teamers before their injuries.
As for any argument that suggests that Olojuwon's longevity in the league makes him a greater player.... Well to that I say, baloney. Robinson missed two seasons due to his commitment to the NAVY, another the year he was injured, and he literally could have played an extra year at the level he was playing in 2003 had he chosen to do so... Imagine that, the Lakers wouldn't have beat the Spurs in 2004 had that been the case (though that would all be speculation).
Oh... and you may as well list Robinson's and Olojuwon's steals per game and blocks per game averages as well. Or what? Do you feel like that would derail your argument that Shaq was a better than the two? Let's not forget, that is the point you are ultimately trying to make.
That's not Robinson's fault. In his prime he never had the supporting cast Olojuwon had. I guess people are obtuse on the matter when they want to be.
As he should... the dude played soccer growing up; skills which enhance the basketball skillset.
BTW Robinson's 'go-to' move was dunking on everyone who got in his way. Robinson quietly led the league in this category for like 4-5 seasons. Oh... but when Shaq led the league in this same category... the media couldn't contain themselves from proclaiming he was the game's most unstoppable force.
I wasn't aware that the NBA playoff series format in 1995 was a 1 vs. 1.
Sounds more like a list of weak arguments.
If by strong, you mean 80% of his production output well then you are making an argument on my behalf.
No need... the original thread article already summarized and analyzed said stats.... I guess you didn't like the conclusion, and stopped reading.
How's this for a stat though... Shaq has a rather poignant statistic that sticks out like a sore thumb; the number of times he has been swept out of the playoffs; 4
Of the few times i agree with LakaLuva, he hit the nail, 100% correct.
I had the honor of meeting Hakeem and i still get on myself for the only thing i mustered up to say,"How tall are you?"
God of all things i could have said i asked something i could have found on google.
If you read my post on the previous page... I pretty much stated that Olojuwon and Robinson were equally phenomenal... but both better than Shaq. That the only reason that 'The Dream' is considered better than 'The Admiral' in the view of the casual NBA fan (and the media) is because of the outcome of their one lone series in '95 where Olojuwon's team played better than Robinson's Spurs. A series, mind you, that was swung by two separate daggers from Houston's long range bombers. And given that context, one that should factor into the relevance of the head to head match-up between the teams' star centers - they were essentially diminished to bystanders on the games' deciding plays; Olojuwon saw his teammates nail their shots, while Robinson saw his own shooters brick theirs.
You believe Shaq was better than Olojuwon? I don't. lakaluva, however is trying to make that argument.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-09-2008 at 10:26 PM.
The career stats is stupid. Hakeem was the man in all his yrs with the Rockets. Drob let Duncan be the man when he came on board. So obviously his numbers declined.
Complementary player, Really? Are you that stupid.
Robinson always owned Hakeem head to head and has more wins than him head to head same with Shaq. Everybody only remembers the 95 series where Hakeem was dominate. AND he only outplayed Robinson because idiot Hill left him isolated on defense. Rudy sent double triple teams at Robinson at the other end.
Hakeem was a better offense player, Robinson was better defensively. Skill wise both are equal all together, but Hakeem get a slight edge for being aggressive. Unfortunately Robinson didn't have that killer instinct, if he had he would be in a different level than everybody. He was a freak of nature.
Shaq is all body and no skill. Put him outside 5 feet from the rim and he sucks. Take his size away from him and he is a scrub.
That's incorrect sir -Robinson always owned Hakeem head to head
Reg season stats head to head
R Robinson: 19.6 PPG, 11.2 RPG Olajuwon: 21.9 PPG, 11.3 RPG
Playoffs head to head
Robinson: 23.8 PPG, 11.3 RPG Olajuwon: 35.3 PPG, 12.5 RPG
Hakeem usually outplayed Robinson, but the Spurs as a team were better than the Rockets in the reg season.
Wrong, Olajuwon averaged more steals and blocks per game than Robinson.Hakeem was a better offense player, Robinson was better defensively.
I agree with this about Shaq.Shaq is all body and no skill. Put him outside 5 feet from the rim and he sucks. Take his size away from him and he is a scrub
Robinson was not a better defensive player.....that's just wrong, Olajuwan was one of the greatest defenders that has ever stepped on a NBA court. Hakeem would also never allow anyone to undress him the way He undressed Robinson....that simply would NOT happen, Hakeem had to much pride and he simply wouldn't allow it.
Hakeem's le runs
(fast foward to 6:05)
The difference between Robinson and Hakeem wasn't just three point shooting, that's just completely re ed. Hakeem was a extreme compe or and had to fight his entire career on bad teams before he finally got decent talent around him........the truth is, if Ralph Sampson never got hurt and if the Rockets didn't have their drug problems, Hakeem would have even more rings....
Hakeem is > than David Robinson....his place in history was and forever will be cemented as that. Saying Hakeem = Robinson is like saying Ali = Fraizer which is completely stupid. That's the reason why "Ali/Fraizer III" was such a epic fight.....like Hakeem, Ali also cemented his place in history...above Joe Fraizer.
P.S.
David Robinson was a complete dumbass for not mentioning Hakeem in his MVP acceptence speach.......he was just begging to get humiliated infront of a world audience.
Last edited by Tmac&Luther; 09-10-2008 at 01:03 AM.
Phenomanul has owned this thread.
???
Also, Olajuwon did something no other player has done before and that's win NBA MVP/Defensive player of year/ NBA Finals MVP all in the same year.
Last edited by Many PackYao; 09-10-2008 at 01:34 AM.
Was it your post where you mention Sean Elliott?
You want the whole truth qualified by an if. IF Hakeem ever got his wish to be traded in 92 you wouldn't have any championships to talk about.
Talk about going off on a tangent.
Way to represent Laker fans everywhere.
Mama warned you about those drugs. You have completely misinterpreted my posts. Nowhere in my posts did I state that Shaq was even close to Hakeem... NOWHERE!!! However, I did say that I think Robinson is better than Shaq.
Listen man... STATS!!! I dont need stats to determine who is better than who. You idiots are the ones who are making a big deal about stats. I just posted them to prove the other clown wrong... and I did, and now you coming with all those excuses for Robinson... as if Hakeem never had major injuries.
Look man, I shouldnt even need stats to prove that Hakeem is the better player. If you cant see that then Im wasting my time and I wont address you anymore on this issue
Hmmmm... let me see...
oh yeah:
Right...
I didn’t realize that top 50 scorers by average in playoffs = 50 best playoff performers. Going by your definition, Allen Iverson is the 2nd greatest player in NBA history. Tracy McGrady > Kobe Bryant. , Vince Carter, read that, Carter, is better than Shaquille O’Neal.
Never mind the fact that Robinson played 70 of his 123 playoffs games (that’s 57%) AFTER he had a series back injury that all but wiped out his career. Never mind that he was casted as the defensive specialist later on in his career. He should probably be more like Shaq and drag teams down like he did with Miami or the Suns now by insisting that he is the man and refuse to give up the spotlight.
Thanks for showing me that you can’t read either. The blog wasn’t originally posted by me, the post wasn’t even originally posted by me. I agreed that Robinson was the most productive center since the 80’s, and was verified by his IBM awards (statistically), win shares (ranked #1 twice, 2nd twice, 3rd once, 4th twice, and 5th thrice in his career, compared to Olajuwon who was twice once, and 3rd twice, and O’neal who was 1st twice, 2nd thrice, and 4th once), and a statistical analysis that looks to more than just ppg in the playoffs.
Speaking of which, Pierce roundly outplayed Kobe in their only matchup in the playoffs. Is Pierce better than Kobe?
Wow, you can read career stats! Maybe you will understand what statistics mean when you graduate from high school. Read the original article, then remind yourself that statistical analysis is more than comparing career stats, especially when not one of them played half career with a floating chip in his back.
And the 0.7 ppg and 0.5 rpg so convincing shows that Hakeem owned Robinson throughout his career. Thanks for sharing that, I didn’t even realize that the difference was so miniscule despite Robinson playing injured half of his career, and lacks any sort of supporting cast to take away pressure away from him in the other half.
Chauncey Billups > John Stockton
Dwayne Wade > Kobe Bryant
Paul Pierce > Charles Barkley
And ….. ? Robinson has a better driving game than Hakeem. So?
Paul Pierce > Kobe Bryant
Just that those facts meant nothing.
Strong season indeed. He went from averaging close to 40 mpg down to 34, the 3 seasons before his injury he averaged 29.8, 27.6 and 25 ppg , the season he came back he averaged 21.6, he was routinely averaging 12 rpg before his injury and he averaged 10.6 afterwards, his blocks went down, he played 73 games, he couldn’t drive to the basket like he used to, he couldn’t elevate like he used to. Fact that he could muster one more season like that speaks to how great he really was.
Good for you, at least you can write and illustrate clearly that you can’t read at all. Work on your comprehension skills and you can complete the communication cycle.
Let me remind you of my stance.
Robinson was vastly underrated in his career, and your points throughout this thread all but confirms it.
Shaq is overrated throughout his career.
Robinson, Hakeem and Shaq are on the same level.
As was Robinson. I believe their bpg and spg averages were very similar. This however is a very subjective comparison. I will say this however, on a rebounding basis, Robinson's rebounding rate as the ratio of available rebounds is otherworldly; the fact that he managed double-digit rebounding even after Rodman arrived is a testament to that fact.
OK that is such a red-herring argument. I remember plays where Mugsy Bogues dribbled through Hakeem's legs twice on the same play. You will find many instances where any quality NBA player can undress another. Olojuwon's 'dream shake' on Robinson was spectacular, but using that one play to suggest he was greater is stupid beyond reproof. Unfortunately you, and most media sheeple, make that claim repeatedly.
I didn't hear any Spurs fans suggesting that Robinson was better than Jordan after the game when he stuffed Jordan on two consecutive possesions, and then ran down the court to dunk over him. It would be a ludicrous argument.
Or while we're at it... could anyone make an argument that the warehouse worker who beat LeBron at H-O-R-S-E is better than LeBron James??? Of course not! The fact that he made a complete fool out of him on not one but two rounds of H-O-R-S-E is irrelevant!!!!
Yoda, "Single data points do not an argument make".
If it's so re ed; and that is your argument. Then feel free to explain why two of Houston's wins in that series were decided by last second heroics from Houston's clutch shooters? Your argument would hold weight if the Rockets had completely dismantled the Spurs. That was not the case.
OK... whatever helps you sleep at night. It doesn't change the fact that both you and I have opined on the matter. I, however have stated all along that this is my opinion. Others have disingenuously tried to pass off their counterpoints as fact.
Oh... is that the game the Spurs lost by 1 measly point. Where Mario Elie knocked in two three-pointers in the final four minutes of the game? Where Horry swooshes the dagger? Where the Spurs coaching staff could not devise any plays to free up Robinson from double teams because Del Negro and Ellis were missing wide open jumpers? Let's just go ahead and fault Robinson for all that; everyone seems to do so already.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-10-2008 at 10:57 AM.
I was at a regular season game where Robinson in Houston put 54 on Hakeem. Both great players and essentially a tie statistically, and people also overlook the fact that Robinson also have good numbers in the series vs. Hakeem that his detractors shoot him down for. A true ranking puts them as 4A and 4B (I personally would have to go with Hakeem by a hair but only by a hair) in great NBA centers behind only Kareem, Chamberlain and Russell (in whatever order you want as they were each fabulous and IMO = Kareem the best ever at any position, for what that is worth, looking at the body of both his NBA and college work, in fact, his career is actually above Jordans if you look at MVPS and rings).
The thing about Robinson is that with a true center early in his career he would have played a Kevin Garnett type of game as Robinson was as pure an athlete as anyone to ever step an NBA court. Shaq's fans can make a potentially valid case of putting him up there above or equal to either Hakeem or Robinson, but defensively Hakeem and Robinson far above Shaq at their primes and down the stretch in a game they never were the liability at the line that Shaq was.
Can you guys really not admit Dream was better than Robinson? then you guys wanna rip Laker fans? jesus.
See my note - Dream by a hair over Robinson (but Robinson never had the talent around him Dream did until late in his career - that is undeniable.)
By the way you got to admire both as much as anyone who have ever played in the NBA (along with Motumbo's work in his home country) as Hakeem has quietly built a business empire that is empowering a lot of people, showed his religous beliefs by fasting during key games and is greatly respected; Robinson's actions off the courts speak for themselves in service above self.
You put a team with both of them on it with any decent 4-5 players around them and it would have been unbeatable - no one could have driven the lane against a combo of Robionson and Hakeem and they could have scored inside and on the wing with impunity.
The NBA was a better place for both of these NBA top tier in all regards caliber greats to have played in it, and the world benefits from them outside of the game.
The point of the original article was that despite what many would think... statistically, win%-wise, productivity-wise thatCan you guys really not admit Dream was better than Robinson? then you guys wanna rip Laker fans? jesus.
Robinson > Shaq.
Laker fans came in here slinging mud and threw Hakeem into the picture. As if that made any difference in the comparison between Shaq and Robinson.
I've stated repeatedly that to me, Robinson and Hakeem were equals - my arguments have said as much, pointing to factors that many fail to consider in that on-going, subjective, argument.
Laker fan is just bitter that their overrated center could have been better and brought more championships to LA if:
1. He had just managed to learn how to make his free-throws.
2. He had given a damn about his conditioning.
3. He had not divorced himself from Kobe/Phil
4. He had anygame whatsoever more than 8 feet away from the basket.
5. He had taken his defensive assignments more seriously.
So rather than contemplate the heights Shaq could have achieved, and further glories the Lakers could have attained, they choose to diminish the legacy of one of the greatest centers ever. As if that mattered.... meh.... Whatever suits their fancy.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 09-10-2008 at 10:59 AM.
I don't have the time to go look it up, so I'll take your word. I was going off memory of someone else stating it a while back. I do believe Robinson was a better defender. Hakeem was the better help defender.
I said above that their drive to succeed is what separated them. Robinson just didn't feel he needed it to validate himself, he walked the walk.
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