Issues of Faith

[I Love Me Some Me]

do you know how many people are wrongly convicted of murder and sent to death row?

How many?

[angel_luv]

Your post was very respectable until this. Why is abortion more important? I brought it up in another thread but do you know how many people are wrongly convicted of murder and sent to death row? Where are the people fighting for them? Who knows how many innocent PEOPLE we have killed since we started allowing capital punishment again. See that's what kinda ticks me off. People stand up for fetuses but they don't make capital punishment an issue when it's on the same level.

I am sorry I was unclear.

Let me clarify. I do not in any way advocate the death penalty. I would love to see it abolished. I do believe innocent lives have been stolen by the death penalty and that horrifies me.

With my previous post, I was trying to differentiate between how in abortion, all babies are innocent while some of the people executed are indeed guilty.

While both the death penalty and abortion are highly important causes because they involve human life, I can see how someone might feel there is Biblical justification is executing the guilty through the death penalty ( see much of the Old Testament), I cannot find any Biblical support for abortion.

But to put it into further perspective for you, I refused to vote for Bush in 2000 due to his history of decision making as govenor in regards to the death penalty in Texas.

[jman3000]

Also, just because I live in the United States, it did not ensure by any means that I would choose to live my life for Christ.
There are several people who were born here in America who if asked would not want to call themselves a Christian- example the declared agnostics in this very thread.

what ensured it was that your mother was hardcore religious and put you through religous schools where you were indoctrinated.

you could have taken it two ways:

if you were rebellious it would have caused you to revolt and become anti christian.

if you were passive it would cause you to embrace all its teachings.

you went through the latter.


i grew up in a Catholic household... my mother was religious and my father was skeptical about religion and didn't like the phonyness.

i went through 12 years of Sunday school and have a decent understanding of the church's teachings... but after i stopped being forced to go to church, i decided on my own that i was far more a believer in Man then I was in a God... or at least a God as how Christianity would have you believe.

I can't stand the notion of somebody pulling the strings above me. If I succeed i want it to be because i did it... and if i fail i want it to be because i failed. i want no excuses.

[Crookshanks]

In answer to the question if a person would be a christian if they lived in another country where christianity was not the predominant religion:

There are believers in every country. However, in some countries the cost is much higher because of persecution. In many middle eastern countries, the bible is forbidden. What's interesting is that we had a muslim from Beirut talk to us at church Sunday. He has a ministry that specifically reaches out to muslims in this country. And he said that more muslims have come to faith in Jesus Christ in the last 10 years than in the 1400 years preceding!

People are hungry for the truth - they just need someone to point the way.

[Shastafarian]

How many?

There have been 124 instances of exoneration since 1973. Not that's only exoneration. Who knows how many innocent men have been killed.

[angel_luv]

So, how do we spin the Inquisition to fit into all that above?

The teachings of the Bible are unfortunately not always properly followed, lived out, and applied.
However that is the fault of men not God- is due to men abusing the free will God bestowed upon all of us.

[angel_luv]

What's interesting is that we had a muslim from Beirut talk to us at church Sunday. He has a ministry that specifically reaches out to muslims in this country. And he said that more muslims have come to faith in Jesus Christ in the last 10 years than in the 1400 years preceding!

People are hungry for the truth - they just need someone to point the way.

I have heard similar reports. Is very encouraging.

[angel_luv]

Gotta run guys.

[ElNono]

People are hungry for the truth - they just need someone to point the way.

What is the truth?

[angel_luv]

Or not,

[Crookshanks]

What is the truth?

Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me." John 14:6

[angel_luv]

What is the truth?

I'm so glad you asked.

John 3:16- For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Acts 16:31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

Romans 10:9-10- 9- If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

[Shastafarian]

Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me." John 14:6

If Jesus said it why did he need John to write it down for him?

[ElNono]

The teachings of the Bible are unfortunately not always properly followed, lived out, and applied.
However that is the fault of men not God- is due to men abusing the free will God bestowed upon all of us.

Agreed. And even when I'm pointy about religion, I grew up in a Christian household, where it was respected that I did not believe in God. So I do respect other people's right to freedom of religion. It DOES bother me, however, when government decides that religion is going to dictate policy. It affects every one of us directly, wether you're a religious person or not, and that's just plain wrong.

[angel_luv]

Is Jesus said it why did he need John to write it down for him?

Jesus said that to His disciples in an actual conversation He had with them.

John kept a record of the conversation and it has been passed down through generations of Christians through the Bible.

[ElNono]

Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me." John 14:6

Pretty humble dude that Jesus Christ... and if he's the truth, then his father, Mr God himself would be what exactly?

[Shastafarian]

Jesus said that to His disciples in an actual conversation He had with them.

John kept a record of the conversation and it has been passed down through generations of Christians through the Bible.

Right but why didn't Jesus just write it down? Why did he need other people to do it for him? And why are there apocryphal books in existence?

[JoeChalupa]

I'm keeping the faith!! YES I CAN!!!

[I Love Me Some Me]

You mean the dominant RELIGION. A conviction is having a strong belief, and can be applied to many non religious things. For example, I'm sure the founding fathers had a strong belief in freedom, separation of power, etc.

Semantics. What you're calling their RELIGION, I am calling their BELIEFS (convictions, as it were). They had a strong belief in freedom, non-establishment, along with a strong belief in God and the Bible.

I disagree completely. I think if Christianity would have had such influence, you'll see a lot more God and Jesus Christ imbued all over the Cons ution.
Thankfully that's not what happened.

Because of their belief in non-establishment of religion, they carefully crafted the Cons ution to avoid such references to God and Jesus Christ. They were careful not to give their Christianity any position of legal liberty.

The Supreme Court opens each session with "God, save this honorable court."
Our currency is stamped with "In God We Trust"
The pledge of allegiance states that we are "one nation, under God"
All but three states invoke the name of the almighty God in the preambles to their cons utions, including the following:
We the people of the State of California, grateful to the Almighty God for our freedom...

We the people of Alabama...invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God...

The people of Connecticut, acknowledging with gra ude the good providence of God...

Countless other examples of the influence of Christianity in the founding of this country. Again, to deny the influence of those beliefs on the foundation and history of this nation, is just a simple ignorance of fact.

[Shastafarian]

The Supreme Court opens each session with "God, save this honorable court."
Our currency is stamped with "In God We Trust"
The pledge of allegiance states that we are "one nation, under God"
All but three states invoke the name of the almighty God in the preambles to their cons utions, including the following:
We the people of the State of California, grateful to the Almighty God for our freedom...

We the people of Alabama...invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God...

The people of Connecticut, acknowledging with gra ude the good providence of God...

Countless other examples of the influence of Christianity in the founding of this country. Again, to deny the influence of those beliefs on the foundation and history of this nation, is just a simple ignorance of fact.

Well golly-jee-wiz you'd have a point if any of that happened when the country was founded. But it didn't. Except maybe for the Connecticut thing...those people are nuts anyways.

[angel_luv]

Pretty humble dude that Jesus Christ... and if he's the truth, then his father, Mr God himself would be what exactly?

Not a new question.

John 8: 51-54-

( Jesus said) I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death.

Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

[angel_luv]

Right but why didn't Jesus just write it down? Why did he need other people to do it for him? And why are there apocryphal books in existence?

I like that the Gospels, for example, are authored by four different men.

It says something to me that four people were moved by Jesus as to want to testify about how His presence and words changed their life.

And then add to that all the believers whose stories are told in the book of Acts and all the believers represented by the epistles Paul sent out.

It is just like any recommendation- the more people who testify to its goodness the more we as humans are inclined to try it out for ourselves.
Jesus would have been within His rights for us to just take His word for everything, but in His mercy and understanding He gave us access to the testimony of multiple people.

[I Love Me Some Me]

There have been 124 instances of exoneration since 1973. Not that's only exoneration. Who knows how many innocent men have been killed.

I know it's terrible for those 124 families, but compared to the number of abortions that have occurred over that same time frame, that's not even a statistically valid percentage.

However, I just don't think comparing captial punishment to abortion does either argument justice. It's apples and oranges. I can be in support of capital punishment of guilty criminals, and against abortion and not be involved in some sort of moral dilemma.

Is your opposition to capital punishment based solely on the lives of those 124 people, or are there other objections you hold?

[I Love Me Some Me]

Well golly-jee-wiz you'd have a point if any of that happened when the country was founded. But it didn't. Except maybe for the Connecticut thing...those people are nuts anyways.

I never claimed these happened when the country was founded, only referenced them as examples of the influence of Christianity.

[Shastafarian]

I like that the Gospels, for example, are authored by four different men.

It says something to me that four people were moved by Jesus as to want to testify about how His presence and words changed their life.

And then add to that all the believers whose stories are told in the book of Acts and all the believers represented by the epistles Paul sent out.

It is just like any recommendation- the more people who testify to its goodness the more we as humans are inclined to try it out for ourselves.
Jesus would have been within His rights for us to just take His word for everything, but in His mercy and understanding He gave us access to the testimony of multiple people.

Ok but what about the other books that have been stricken from Christianity because they didn't meet the "standards" thought up way back when?

I know it's terrible for those 124 families, but compared to the number of abortions that have occurred over that same time frame, that's not even a statistically valid percentage.

However, I just don't think comparing captial punishment to abortion does either argument justice. It's apples and oranges. I can be in support of capital punishment of guilty criminals, and against abortion and not be involved in some sort of moral dilemma.

Is your opposition to capital punishment based solely on the lives of those 124 people, or are there other objections you hold?

Maybe I haven't been clear. I think it's terrible what has happened to the men and women who have been wrongly convicted and executed. That is a large point. But my main focus is that it STILL HAPPENS. People go on crusades for the rights of a fetus but completely ignore people with established rights being executed. Our judicial system is nowhere near the level it ought to be if we're using lethal punishment. When life starts is a different matter all together.