KB24.com: Kobe vs Jordan

[DPG21920]

It matters enough for there to be 6 pages to this thread.



I'm saying can, as in possibility



When did I ever say just rings? If Kobe gets 6 rings, I said that the MJ comparisons would start but still not be enough.

I said if Kobe SURPASSES Jordan's ring count for sure he'll have a good argument for being better than Jordan. And if Kobe can get that many rings, I'm sure he'll get quite a few Finals MVPs.

Read the posts again, you're confusing me with somebody elae.

I am not confusing you with anyone else. You are missing my premise. You keep asking people for facts, then you present possibilities, not probabilities. Then you act like you are not comparing them, but you are because you are intertwining the two's careers. My question is that do you think that Kobe, as is today, is arguably the best player ever in the game?

[Allanon]

I am not confusing you with anyone else. You are missing my premise.

What is your premise?

You keep asking people for facts, then you present possibilities, not probabilities.

If you are going to say my opinion is wrong, back it up with facts, not more opinion.

Then you act like you are not comparing them, but you are because you are intertwining the two's careers.

Where? Links, quotes?

My question is that do you think that Kobe, as is today, is arguably the best player ever in the game?

Nope, and I don't even think it's arguable. Read my posts, I already answered this 2 times already.

[DPG21920]

What is your premise?

I have already stated it twice. Who cares if he catches Jordan in rings, your argument is that IF he does (which is not a fact, but opinion) that he will be mentioned with Jordan (which is an opinion). I said Jordan is not considered the GOAT just because of rings; Kobe will never be considered the GOAT (opinion).

If you are going to say my opinion is wrong, back it up with facts, not more opinion.

Link to where I said your opinion is wrong? How can opinion be wrong? All you do is ask people to post facts, where are your facts? You have none, just opinions, so it is unfair to ask others for facts.

Where? Links, quotes?

Every time you posted in this thread is a link and a quote. By using Kobe's name and Jordan's name in the same sentence, you are comparing them. Quit trying to beat around the bush. You keep using the two names, purposing what-if scenarios and implying if the what-if is achieved he will be mentioned. That is a comparison.

Nope, and I don't even think it's arguable. Read my posts, I already answered this 2 times already.

It is not arguable even if he wins the les.

[Allanon]

[/B]

It is not arguable even if he wins the les.

Really? If Kobe gets 7-8 rings, it's not aruguable?

[Allanon]

I have already stated it twice. Who cares if he catches Jordan in rings, your argument is that IF he does (which is not a fact, but opinion) that he will be mentioned with Jordan (which is an opinion). I said Jordan is not considered the GOAT just because of rings; Kobe will never be considered the GOAT (opinion).

I never argued with you on these points. I never said your point is wrong. READ MY POSTS. Why are you presenting a premise that has no argument?

Link to where I said your opinion is wrong? How can opinion be wrong? All you do is ask people to post facts, where are your facts? You have none, just opinions, so it is unfair to ask others for facts.

You did not say my opinion was wrong, but you were responding to my statement what OTHERS said.

I don't need to present facts because I state that he CAN catch Jordan, not WILL catch Jordan. Others must present facts since they say he CANNOT which is absolute.

Every time you posted in this thread is a link and a quote. You keep using the two names, purposing what-if scenarios and implying if the what-if is achieved he will be mentioned. That is a comparison.

Sorry, that's craziness. I'm talking about Kobe MAY do, that is not a comparison. Future tense, CAN do, not HAS DONE.

By using Kobe's name and Jordan's name in the same sentence, you are comparing them.

I see several instances of you using Jordan and Kobe in the same sentence. So you are also comparing Jordan with Kobe? I thought you said Kobe shoudl never be mentioned with Jordan? That's just crazy logic.

Quit trying to beat around the bush.

I'm not beating around the bush, you're jumping to conclusions.

[ambchang]

From a statistical stand point, it is difficult to compare Kobe and Jordan based on the following reasons:
1) Kobe came straight out of high school and didn't hit his prime until his fourth year, while Jordan hit the ground running.
2) They played in massively different era; Kobe in an era where perimeter threat is the way to go (other than Stoudemire, and earlier on, Shaq, most of the top-10 scorers year-in-year out are perimeter threats. Jordan on the other hand, played in an era that was still post dominated (Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq later on, McHale, Aguirre).
3) Rules were different, hand checks were thrown out, but defensive schemes were more complex.

But these differences aside, the statistics would give a brief look at how they compared to each other.

I took out Kobe's worse seasons, and only used his numbers from 2000 to 2008, a total of 9 seasons, and then took Jordan's nine best statistical seasons (1987 to 1993, 96 and 97). The reason is because Kobe's numbers the 1st 3 seasons were his "college" days, and Jordan took a couple of years off for baseball).

I then took per 36 minute production of the two. The reason is because some players play more than others, and given that these two are such top conditioned athletes and they played close to / more than 36 minutes a game anyways, we don't have to worry about them running out of gas and see production drops.

The result is as follows:
MJ is better than Kobe in:
Rebounds (19%)
Assists (8%)
Steals (57%)
Blocks (60%)
Turnovers (-1%)
Fouls (-5%)
Points (18%)
FG% (5.7%)
3P% (0.4%)
FT% (0.1%)

Kobe was better than Jordan in 3PA and 3PM by almost 90%.

I was shocked by the results, especially those around 3P%, but it seems like both are about equal during their prime years, and Jordan improved his 3P% dramatically as his career progresses, and had the highest 3P% in the years where he made most of his attempts (something about shot selection).

It comes as no surprise that Kobe made more 3pters as this is an era when 3pt shooting has matured into a serious weapon, while in the 80's, and even the early 90's, the shot was nothing more than a gimmick and an option for a team to come back in a high-risk/high-reward maner.

From an accomplishment stand point, in the years I used to compare the two, Jordan won:
1 DPoY
5 MVPs
5 Finals MVP (I had to throw out 98, because it was the last season of Jordan's prime)
9 All-NBA 1st teams
8 All-D 1st teams
Won 5 les as the main man.
Led the league in scoring 9 times
Finished 8th in assists once
Led the league in steals 3 times, and top 10 another 5 times

For Kobe Bryant, he won:
1 MVP
All NBA 1st team 6 times
All NBA 2nd team twice
All NBA 3rd team once
All D 1st team 6 times
All D 2nd team twice
Led the league in scoring twice
Finishing top 10 in scoring another 6 times
Finished top 10 in steals 3 times
Won 3 les as the 2nd best player on the team.

So from both a statistical point of view and from an accomplishment point of view, Jordan dwarfed Kobe in their respective 9 years of prime. Unless Kobe can drastically improve over the next 5 or 6 years, which means that he will go into his "real" prime after playing for 12 seasons, which in itself is extremely rare, Kobe has no chance of catching Jordan.

[Allanon]

Analysis too long for a re-post.

So from both a statistical point of view and from an accomplishment point of view, Jordan dwarfed Kobe in their respective 9 years of prime. Unless Kobe can drastically improve over the next 5 or 6 years, which means that he will go into his "real" prime after playing for 12 seasons, which in itself is extremely rare, Kobe has no chance of catching Jordan.

It's a good analysis but Kobe's but at this time it's hard to compare the two because Kobe's still in his prime. You have Jordan's best 9 years versus Kobe's years minus his worst.

If you look at the two and what they accomplished at the same age, it's very close.

There are a few statistics that Kobe just won't catch Jordan on as you pointed out. But on the flip side, there are some things that he will probably surpass:

1) All NBA 1st teams
2) NBA 1st Defense

And probably a couple of others.

A milestone that he for sure will pass Jordan is the All Time scoring leaders and possibly end up only behind Kareem in all time scoring.

Kobe was better than Jordan in 3PA and 3PM by almost 90%.

It comes as no surprise that Kobe made more 3pters as this is an era when 3pt shooting has matured into a serious weapon, while in the 80's, and even the early 90's, the shot was nothing more than a gimmick and an option for a team to come back in a high-risk/high-reward maner.

I have to disagree on the 3 pointers. If you look at the all time leaders in 3 pointers, you see guys like Reggie Miller, Eddie Jones, Glen Rice, Tim Hardaway, Thunder Dan. All of these guys made their mark during Jordan's era. Dale Ellis is from the 80's. Kobe's just a much better distance shooter than Jordan ever was.

Unless Kobe can drastically improve over the next 5 or 6 years, which means that he will go into his "real" prime after playing for 12 seasons, which in itself is extremely rare, Kobe has no chance of catching Jordan.

As you looked at Jordan's best 9 years, between what ages were they?

And adding to this, Kobe can probably play until he's 38 and probably won't go play baseball, and his talented young team, his list of accomplishments can be quite long.

[ambchang]

It's a good analysis but Kobe's but at this time it's hard to compare the two because Kobe's still in his prime. You have Jordan's best 9 years versus Kobe's years minus his worst.

There are a few statistics that Kobe just won't catch Jordan on as you pointed out. But on the flip side, there are some things that he will probably surpass:

1) All NBA 1st teams
2) NBA 1st Defense

And probably a couple of others.

This is strictly based on the fact that Kobe started off at a much earlier age than Jordan. Besides, Jordan has 10 All-NBA 1st teams, Kobe has 6. He has to be at the top of his game for 4 more years, which, while entirely possible, is difficult and not as easy as you make it sound. With players like Chris Paul and Dwayne Wade coming into their primes, Kobe will have to keep up.

A milestone that he for sure will pass Jordan is the All Time scoring leaders and possibly end up only behind Kareem in all time scoring.

For sure? He would have to score 2300 points a year for the next 4.6 years to catch Jordan. And to catch Karl Malone, he would have to do it for another 6.6 years. That would take Kobe well into his mid-30s.

Again, entirely possible, just not as probable as most people make it out to be.

I have to disagree on the 3 pointers. If you look at the all time leaders in 3 pointers, you see guys like Reggie Miller, Eddie Jones, Glen Rice, Tim Hardaway, Thunder Dan. All of these guys made their mark during Jordan's era. Dale Ellis is from the 80's. Kobe's just a much better distance shooter than Jordan ever was.

Top 10 3 pt shooters (attempts) and the years they made their most damage:
1) Reggie Miller - 92 to 04, peaking at around 97.
2) Ray Allen - 97 to 08 (pretty much his entire career), but an obvious upward trend later on in his career.
3) Tim Hardaway - 92 to 02, peaking 97 onwards.
4) Nick Van Exel - 94 to 02, making most of his damage earlier on.
5) Dale Ellis - 89 to 98, making most of his damage later. To witness, he led the league in 3PA in 87 with 240 attempts, it's common to have over 400 attempts nowadays.
6) Antoine Walker - 01 to 06, I don't know why he is shooting that much.
7) Eddie Jones - 97 to 06
8) Jason Kidd - 96 to 08
9) Mad Max - 91 to 96, those Rockets revoluntionized the way 3pters were used.
10) Glen Rice - 92 to 97. He just started to suck after that.

So you see, most of the 3pt leaders did their damage in the late 90's to now.

Also, looking at the league leaders, up until 87, the highest 3PA in a season was 257 by Darrell Griffith, from 88 to 94, the highest was Michael Adams with 564 for the run and gun Nuggets, and the rest were all less than 480.
Then the madness begins, with the leaders shooting more than 564 attemps in all but 3 seasons (including the strike shortened season)

There is no doubt 3 pt shooting has increased by a huge amount in the last 15 years or so.

As you looked at Jordan's best 9 years, between what ages were they?

It wasn't Jordan's 9 best years, it was 9 consecutive full seasons he played in, and he was between 23 and 33. Kobe is already 30.

[Allanon]

This is strictly based on the fact that Kobe started off at a much earlier age than Jordan. Besides, Jordan has 10 All-NBA 1st teams, Kobe has 6. He has to be at the top of his game for 4 more years, which, while entirely possible, is difficult and not as easy as you make it sound. With players like Chris Paul and Dwayne Wade coming into their primes, Kobe will have to keep up.

I don't think Kobe's going to be penalized for starting earlier than Jordan as Kobe didn't get much PT in the ealier years anyways. CP3 is a point guard and will have his place. DWade is definitely a compelling player and #2 behind Kobe at the SG spot. I don't know if DWade is ready to pass up Kobe in the near future, this year will tell.

For sure? He would have to score 2300 points a year for the next 4.6 years to catch Jordan. And to catch Karl Malone, he would have to do it for another 6.6 years. That would take Kobe well into his mid-30s.

Kobe's averaged 2,500 points a season over the last 3 years. Let's give him some decline and give him 2,000 points a season. He'll pass up Jordan by 35 with probably 2-3 more years of playing time left to catch up with the Mailman. This is one of the easier milestones in Kobe's career I think.

Top 10 3 pt shooters (attempts) and the years they made their most damage:
1) Reggie Miller - 92 to 04, peaking at around 97.
2) Ray Allen - 97 to 08 (pretty much his entire career), but an obvious upward trend later on in his career.
3) Tim Hardaway - 92 to 02, peaking 97 onwards.
4) Nick Van Exel - 94 to 02, making most of his damage earlier on.
5) Dale Ellis - 89 to 98, making most of his damage later. To witness, he led the league in 3PA in 87 with 240 attempts, it's common to have over 400 attempts nowadays.
6) Antoine Walker - 01 to 06, I don't know why he is shooting that much.
7) Eddie Jones - 97 to 06
8) Jason Kidd - 96 to 08
9) Mad Max - 91 to 96, those Rockets revoluntionized the way 3pters were used.
10) Glen Rice - 92 to 97. He just started to suck after that.

So you see, most of the 3pt leaders did their damage in the late 90's to now.

Why are you considering their peak number which is normally thrown out as oddball #'s? Practically all of those guys were known for their 3 point shooting since they entered the NBA. One of the best known 3 point shooters ever was Larry Bird and he was an 80s guy. Jordan just didn't have the skill.

There is no doubt 3 pt shooting has increased by a huge amount in the last 15 years or so.

Yes 3 point shooting has increased dramatically but scoring in general has increased dramatically since the 90s. Also, practically all of the best 3 point shooters come from Jordan's era.

It wasn't Jordan's 9 best years, it was 9 consecutive full seasons he played in, and he was between 23 and 33. Kobe is already 30.

I dont think Jordan accomplished that much by age 33. Please check your facts below again. Also, a more telling statistic (which my friend wouldn't post ) would be to compare the two at the age of 29 (Kobe just turned 30 and has the full season left).

From an accomplishment stand point, in the years I used to compare the two, Jordan won:
1 DPoY
5 MVPs
5 Finals MVP (I had to throw out 98, because it was the last season of Jordan's prime)
9 All-NBA 1st teams
8 All-D 1st teams
Won 5 les as the main man.
Led the league in scoring 9 times
Finished 8th in assists once
Led the league in steals 3 times, and top 10 another 5 times

[DPG21920]

I never argued with you on these points. I never said your point is wrong. READ MY POSTS. Why are you presenting a premise that has no argument?

It has an argument. The reason I asked you if you thought Kobe was thought of as "arguably" the GOAT now was because I do not think he can make a quantum leap in his game in order to propel him into the conversation. Even though he may win rings or finals MVP's do you really think his game will change enough to make him comparable to the GOAT? He is a great player with a great team now, that does not mean that just because he wins, that his game has evolved enough to ever warrant a comparison.

You did not say my opinion was wrong, but you were responding to my statement what OTHERS said.

I don't need to present facts because I state that he CAN catch Jordan, not WILL catch Jordan. Others must present facts since they say he CANNOT which is absolute.

That is what is wrong with your statements. You are speaking in terms of "can" are "possible" then asking others to provide "facts" in order to dispute you. I think you are getting caught up on the terminology. I think people know he "can", they just think it is highly improbable, which is opinion, so they need no facts to dispute your non-facts.

Sorry, that's craziness. I'm talking about Kobe MAY do, that is not a comparison. Future tense, CAN do, not HAS DONE.


I see several instances of you using Jordan and Kobe in the same sentence. So you are also comparing Jordan with Kobe? I thought you said Kobe shoudl never be mentioned with Jordan? That's just crazy logic.

I already said, you keep basing your comparison based on future what-ifs, when I say it is probably irrelevant based on my reasoning above. You know what I meant by that. It wasn't literally that you used the names together, it was context, do not play dumb like a child.

I'm not beating around the bush, you're jumping to conclusions.

I understand you think that: the Lakers can win OVER 70 games, that Bynum is better than David Robinson (or will be) and the Kobe can "catch" Jordan, but if you make such outlandish claims (and they are considering what has to be done in order to accomplish the tasks, by breaking every conceivable record known to basketball implying that these Lakers ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER IN BASKETBALL) you must be prepared to be met with FACTS and OPINIONS.

What is the point of giving you facts, when you are dismissive of them anyways. Every statistic and number given to you, is just argued about by you and you keep asking for more. If anything, the burden of proof lies on you to somehow prove he and the Lakers can do the things you have OPINIONS on since they are seemingly so outlandish.

[Allanon]

It has an argument. The reason I asked you if you thought Kobe was thought of as "arguably" the GOAT now was because I do not think he can make a quantum leap in his game in order to propel him into the conversation. Even though he may win rings or finals MVP's do you really think his game will change enough to make him comparable to the GOAT? He is a great player with a great team now, that does not mean that just because he wins, that his game has evolved enough to ever warrant a comparison.

That is a future argument, not a present argument. You say it yourself "I do not THINK he can make a quantum leap..." That is opinion and I never said your opinion was wrong.

That is what is wrong with your statements. You are speaking in terms of "can" are "possible" then asking others to provide "facts" in order to dispute you. I think you are getting caught up on the terminology. I think people know he "can", they just think it is highly improbable, which is opinion, so they need no facts to dispute your non-facts.

I am asking for facts because I am talking possibilities which may or may not be wrong. Others are saying CANNOT which is absolute and must be correct only proven by facts.

I already said, you keep basing your comparison based on future what-ifs, when I say it is probably irrelevant based on my reasoning above. You know what I meant by that. It wasn't literally that you used the names together, it was context, do not play dumb like a child.

Stop acting like you're a stupid kid, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You contradicted yourself.

I understand you think that: the Lakers can win OVER 70 games, that Bynum is better than David Robinson (or will be) and the Kobe can "catch" Jordan, but if you make such outlandish claims (and they are considering what has to be done in order to accomplish the tasks, by breaking every conceivable record known to basketball implying that these Lakers ARE THE BEST TEAM EVER IN BASKETBALL) you must be prepared to be met with FACTS and OPINIONS.

I've been met with little fact and lots of OPINIONS. Opinions are fine by me, it doesn't mean my opinion is more right or wrong than yours and others. Am I wrong to think the Lakers will win 70 games this year? I NEVER said Bynum was better than DRob...quotes, links please? Am I wrong to think Bynum MAY be better than Robinson?

What is the point of giving you facts, when you are dismissive of them anyways. Every statistic and number given to you, is just argued about by you and you keep asking for more. If anything, the burden of proof lies on you to somehow prove he and the Lakers can do the things you have OPINIONS on since they are seemingly so outlandish.

Because facts are given without context and some are just wrong. I dismiss facts putting Jordan's end of career #'s vs Kobe's current career. Soma are wrong, for example "Jordan is faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30." Is this a "fact" you think I should not dismiss? You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30?"

[DPG21920]

That is a future argument, not a present argument. You say it yourself "I do not THINK he can make a quantum leap..." That is opinion and I never said your opinion was wrong.



I am asking for facts because I am talking possibilities which may or may not be wrong. Others are saying CANNOT which is absolute and must be correct only proven by facts.



Stop acting like you're a stupid kid, you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You contradicted yourself.



I've been met with little fact and lots of OPINIONS. Opinions are fine by me, it doesn't mean my opinion is more right or wrong than yours and others. Am I wrong to think the Lakers will win 70 games this year? Am I wrong to think Bynum MAY be better than Robinson?



Because facts are given without context and some are just wrong. I dismiss facts putting Jordan's end of career #'s vs Kobe's current career. Soma are wrong, for example "Jordan is faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30." Is this a "fact" you think I should not dismiss? You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30?"

I never contradicted myself. You said yourself that Kobe is not even close to the greatest player ever right now. So do you think his game will change enough to do so? Or do you think just by catching the "ring" marks that will do it? Because if he wins rings, but his game does not change then he is just as comparable to the GOAT now as he will be in the future.

You are the one that is making absurd claims. If you do so, the burden of proof is ON YOU to provide facts on why you think something. Something factual must have come your way to lead you to believe that: the Lakers will win 70+ games, that Bynum is (or will be) better than Robinson, and that Kobe COULD "catch" Jordan, hence implying that Kobe will be in the consideration of the GOAT, this Lakers team is the best in the history of the NBA and Bynum will be better than Robinson. Lets hear some of your facts that led you to this conclusions and ASSumptions.

[Allanon]

I never contradicted myself. You said yourself that Kobe is not even close to the greatest player ever right now. So do you think his game will change enough to do so? Or do you think just by catching the "ring" marks that will do it? Because if he wins rings, but his game does not change then he is just as comparable to the GOAT now as he will be in the future.

Yes, I do believe if Kobe wins 7-8 rings, he'll have a case to be GOAT. Along the way, he'll pick up a couple of Finals MVPs and perhaps an MVP or two.

You are the one that is making absurd claims. If you do so, the burden of proof is ON YOU to provide facts on why you think something. Something factual must have come your way to lead you to believe that: the Lakers will win 70+ games, that Bynum is (or will be) better than Robinson, and that Kobe COULD "catch" Jordan, hence implying that Kobe will be in the consideration of the GOAT, this Lakers team is the best in the history of the NBA and Bynum will be better than Robinson. Lets hear some of your facts that led you to this conclusions and ASSumptions.

I'm not providing it as a fact, I am saying it's possible that Kobe can catch Jordan. I am not saying he WILL catch Jordan, just that he MAY do so. If Kobe does not catch Jordan, I am right. If Kobe does NOT catch Jordan, I am also right. However, if you say he CANNOT catch Jordan, then that is a right or wrong as it is absolute and therefore facts must be given.

I make NO assumptions but I leave the door open for a yes or no.

Are you saying that Kobe CANNOT and absolutely WILL NOT catch Jordan and be considered GOAT?

You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30?"

[DPG21920]

Jordan averaged 36 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists during those three playoff runs. If that's "decimation", then there needs to be a new word for what's been happening to Kobe.

6 time finals MVP vs 0

overated...shaq might have been Finals mvp, but 2 of the 3 championship years, Kobe was overall playoff MVP....and most people including haters would even agree with that.

2000
Kobe 21.1 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 4.4 APG, 1.5 SPG on .442%
Shaq 30.7 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.1 APG, 2.5 BPG on .556%

2001
Kobe 29.4 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 6.1 APG, 1.5 SPG on .469%
Shaq 30.4 PPG, 15.4 RPG, 3.2 APG, 2.5 BPG on .555%

2002
Kobe 26.6 PPG, 5.8 RPG, 4.6 APG, 1.5 SPG on .434%
Shaq 28.5 PPG, 12.6 RPG, 2.8 APG, 2.5 BPG on .529%

The only playoff run he was close to Shaq was in 2001. Shaq was overall playoff MVP' in every championship, aswell as Finals MVP.

It can't, he's 30 years old already, he has what maybe 4 or 5 years of prime play left? So what you expect him to win 4 or 5 les in a row, multiple more league MVP's, finals MVP's, the works. Basically Kobe and the Lakers have to be flawless for the rest of Kobe's prime. This is coming off a finals loss to the Celtics. You are not even making this push for Kobe, off a le. Plus how much longer before Lebron has a team that can challenge for it all? He has every bit the physical talent that Kobe has, maybe more. Kobe is just not going to hit MJ's level.

Read em and weap

Jackson is asked to confirm that he feels Kobe has better skills then spends most of the interview praising Jordan and saying what he does better than Kobe. And on defense it is no ing contest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_WNTx3gG_s

Does Kobe have better skills??

"He does well but MJ is stronger"

"MJ has a better interior game, the best of all time"

"MJ had a better FG%"

"MJ had better hands, the ball was magic in his hands"


"Perhaps Kobe is a better shooter"

He didn't even Kobe that clear edge, LOL

And stop talking about D. Only a blind man with a man crush on Kobe would claim he is a great defender on Jordan's level. MJ would shut the opposition down night after night. He and Pippen gave people nightmares on that end of the floor. I still can't believe the Laker fans are in here talking about MJ and Kobe after the ass kicking Paul friggin Piece just gave him.

Wake up folks!!!

No scoring les, 5 league mvp's, 6 rings, 6 finals mvps, legendary playoff performances and one insane clutch shot after another make you great.



"Kobe is not close, but he's not done. We're not talking about now, you're trying to be a prophet in saying Kobe "never" will catch Jordan. You're calling your future prediction on Kobe "an accurate assessment".

He is so faaaar behind in terms of accomplishments at age 30 it is crazy. He showed us nothing in the finals against the Celtics. Even less against the Pistons in 2004. This is your problem Kobe has gotten beat-down by teams Jordan would manhandle in the same position. MJ does not lose to the Pistons playing with Shaq my friend. MJ does not let Pierce eat his lunch in 6 games in the finals. You seem to think "Well if he gets 6 rings he is on Jordan's level", it's not that simple.



"When Jordan gets first team all defense the media is 100% right but when Kobe gets selections to the first team, "the media often s it up".

Kobe is a very good defender, but Jordan was an all time shut-down defender. Again is that just my opinion, yes it is. I doubt too many would hand Kobe the nod over MJ on D, except Laker fans, hugging very tightly to Kobe's nuts.

From a statistical stand point, it is difficult to compare Kobe and Jordan based on the following reasons:
1) Kobe came straight out of high school and didn't hit his prime until his fourth year, while Jordan hit the ground running.
2) They played in massively different era; Kobe in an era where perimeter threat is the way to go (other than Stoudemire, and earlier on, Shaq, most of the top-10 scorers year-in-year out are perimeter threats. Jordan on the other hand, played in an era that was still post dominated (Malone, Olajuwon, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq later on, McHale, Aguirre).
3) Rules were different, hand checks were thrown out, but defensive schemes were more complex.

But these differences aside, the statistics would give a brief look at how they compared to each other.

I took out Kobe's worse seasons, and only used his numbers from 2000 to 2008, a total of 9 seasons, and then took Jordan's nine best statistical seasons (1987 to 1993, 96 and 97). The reason is because Kobe's numbers the 1st 3 seasons were his "college" days, and Jordan took a couple of years off for baseball).

I then took per 36 minute production of the two. The reason is because some players play more than others, and given that these two are such top conditioned athletes and they played close to / more than 36 minutes a game anyways, we don't have to worry about them running out of gas and see production drops.

The result is as follows:
MJ is better than Kobe in:
Rebounds (19%)
Assists (8%)
Steals (57%)
Blocks (60%)
Turnovers (-1%)
Fouls (-5%)
Points (18%)
FG% (5.7%)
3P% (0.4%)
FT% (0.1%)

Kobe was better than Jordan in 3PA and 3PM by almost 90%.

I was shocked by the results, especially those around 3P%, but it seems like both are about equal during their prime years, and Jordan improved his 3P% dramatically as his career progresses, and had the highest 3P% in the years where he made most of his attempts (something about shot selection).

It comes as no surprise that Kobe made more 3pters as this is an era when 3pt shooting has matured into a serious weapon, while in the 80's, and even the early 90's, the shot was nothing more than a gimmick and an option for a team to come back in a high-risk/high-reward maner.

From an accomplishment stand point, in the years I used to compare the two, Jordan won:
1 DPoY
5 MVPs
5 Finals MVP (I had to throw out 98, because it was the last season of Jordan's prime)
9 All-NBA 1st teams
8 All-D 1st teams
Won 5 les as the main man.
Led the league in scoring 9 times
Finished 8th in assists once
Led the league in steals 3 times, and top 10 another 5 times

For Kobe Bryant, he won:
1 MVP
All NBA 1st team 6 times
All NBA 2nd team twice
All NBA 3rd team once
All D 1st team 6 times
All D 2nd team twice
Led the league in scoring twice
Finishing top 10 in scoring another 6 times
Finished top 10 in steals 3 times
Won 3 les as the 2nd best player on the team.

So from both a statistical point of view and from an accomplishment point of view, Jordan dwarfed Kobe in their respective 9 years of prime. Unless Kobe can drastically improve over the next 5 or 6 years, which means that he will go into his "real" prime after playing for 12 seasons, which in itself is extremely rare, Kobe has no chance of catching Jordan.

This is strictly based on the fact that Kobe started off at a much earlier age than Jordan. Besides, Jordan has 10 All-NBA 1st teams, Kobe has 6. He has to be at the top of his game for 4 more years, which, while entirely possible, is difficult and not as easy as you make it sound. With players like Chris Paul and Dwayne Wade coming into their primes, Kobe will have to keep up.




For sure? He would have to score 2300 points a year for the next 4.6 years to catch Jordan. And to catch Karl Malone, he would have to do it for another 6.6 years. That would take Kobe well into his mid-30s.

Again, entirely possible, just not as probable as most people make it out to be.



Top 10 3 pt shooters (attempts) and the years they made their most damage:
1) Reggie Miller - 92 to 04, peaking at around 97.
2) Ray Allen - 97 to 08 (pretty much his entire career), but an obvious upward trend later on in his career.
3) Tim Hardaway - 92 to 02, peaking 97 onwards.
4) Nick Van Exel - 94 to 02, making most of his damage earlier on.
5) Dale Ellis - 89 to 98, making most of his damage later. To witness, he led the league in 3PA in 87 with 240 attempts, it's common to have over 400 attempts nowadays.
6) Antoine Walker - 01 to 06, I don't know why he is shooting that much.
7) Eddie Jones - 97 to 06
8) Jason Kidd - 96 to 08
9) Mad Max - 91 to 96, those Rockets revoluntionized the way 3pters were used.
10) Glen Rice - 92 to 97. He just started to suck after that.

So you see, most of the 3pt leaders did their damage in the late 90's to now.

Also, looking at the league leaders, up until 87, the highest 3PA in a season was 257 by Darrell Griffith, from 88 to 94, the highest was Michael Adams with 564 for the run and gun Nuggets, and the rest were all less than 480.
Then the madness begins, with the leaders shooting more than 564 attemps in all but 3 seasons (including the strike shortened season)

There is no doubt 3 pt shooting has increased by a huge amount in the last 15 years or so.



It wasn't Jordan's 9 best years, it was 9 consecutive full seasons he played in, and he was between 23 and 33. Kobe is already 30.

There is a lot of facts in there

[Allanon]

There is a lot of facts in there

Facts given without relevance and without context are useless. Almost all of those comparisons are pitting end of career Jordan vs 30 year old Kobe which isn't logical.

That's just alot of irrelevant "facts". if I compared end of career Magic to Jordan at age 30, Jordan would look like a rookie.

Ambchang came up with the best analysis so far but got the years and accomplished mixed up. He said age 33 Jordan had 5 MVPS and 5 rings.

Again, a simple question: You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30"?

Do you even read? Are those "facts" correct or did you just accept them because they aren't positive for Kobe?

[DPG21920]

Yes, I do believe if Kobe wins 7-8 rings, he'll have a case to be GOAT. Along the way, he'll pick up a couple of Finals MVPs and perhaps an MVP or two.

That is not what I asked, quit dodging the question. I asked do you think that Kobe's game (not his hardware count) right now warrants discussion for the GOAT? If yes, please explain using facts. If no, do you think that even if he wins 7-8 rings, a couple of finals MVPs and perhaps a MVP or two, that his GAME, his actual SKILL will have improved enough from now until then to warrant GOAT talk? Do you think it will be because he became more skillful or made a leap in his game that he will win hardware and awards, or because he has a great team?

I'm not providing it as a fact, I am saying it's possible that Kobe can catch Jordan. I am not saying he WILL catch Jordan, just that he MAY do so. If Kobe does not catch Jordan, I am right. If Kobe does NOT catch Jordan, I am also right. However, if you say he CANNOT catch Jordan, then that is a right or wrong as it is absolute and therefore facts must be given.

I make NO assumptions but I leave the door open for a yes or no.

So you cannot be wrong? I would like to know how someone cannot be wrong. CANNOT is not WILL NOT, it is still an opinion. You are making an assumption because you said YOU THINK that Kobe can win rings, MVPs and such. That means you are assuming he CAN DO IT. Just because you are trying to cover your ass all ways, does not mean you should not have to provide facts on why you came to such "open door" theories. Just like if someone says "this food is bad". That is an opinion. How did they come to the opinion? Either they tasted the food and there is factual evidence, or they never tasted it and are just ignorant and spouting off. Same with you. Either you saw something factual that leads you to believe Kobe "may" catch Jordan, or that the Lakers will win 70+ games. Or you or just talking out of your ass.

Are you saying that Kobe CANNOT and absolutely WILL NOT catch Jordan and be considered GOAT?

You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30?"

I am saying that:
1) it is improbable that Kobe will catch Jordan in rings, MVPs, and finals MVPs
2) that it is unlikely that the Lakers will win 70+ games
3) that it is unlikely that Bynum will be better than Robinson

I think that by age 30, Jordan was already widely considered at least in the ballpark of GOAT by his skill and not just his hardware. Kobe is not.

[DPG21920]

Facts given without relevance and without context are useless. Almost all of those comparisons are pitting end of career Jordan vs 30 year old Kobe which isn't logical.

That's just alot of irrelevant "facts". if I compared end of career Magic to Jordan at age 30, Jordan would look like a rookie.

Ambchang came up with the best analysis so far but got the years and accomplished mixed up. He said age 33 Jordan had 5 MVPS and 5 rings.

Again, a simple question: You think Jordan was "faaar ahead of Kobe at age 30"?

Do you even read? Are those "facts" correct or did you just accept them because they aren't positive for Kobe?

Irrelevant to you. Are you saying those things are untrue?

[Allanon]

Irrelevant to you. Are you saying those things are untrue?

They are true but irrelevant because they are END OF CAREER Jordan versus Kobe who has many years left.

If I compared finished Magic to 30 year old Jordan, who would be the better player?

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime with 5+ years of playing left?

[DPG21920]

They are true but irrelevant because they are END OF CAREER Jordan versus Kobe who has many years left.

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime?

I am saying where in this whole thread are any of your facts? You ask for facts, then you deem them irrelevant. Obviously all the people posting the facts thought they were relevant. Only you seem to think they are not. But I guess since you are right even when you are wrong...

[Allanon]

I am saying where in this whole thread are any of your facts? You ask for facts, then you deem them irrelevant. Obviously all the people posting the facts thought they were relevant. Only you seem to think they are not. But I guess since you are right even when you are wrong...

So you think those facts are relevant and accurate in comparison?

If I compared finished Magic to 30 year old Jordan, who would be the better player?

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime with 5+ years of playing left?

[angelbelow]

i cant believe this thread is still going but here are my thoughts.

at this point MJ is obviously the GOAT and kobe is nowhere close.

but i do agree that kobe needs to finish his career before we can really compare them. but i dont think kobe will be able to amass enough stats and awards and rings to matter.

[DPG21920]

So you think those facts are relevant and accurate in comparison?

If I compared finished Magic to 30 year old Jordan, who would be the better player?

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime with 5+ years of playing left?

Yes to a certain degree. Because it paints the picture of what Kobe will have to become.

[Allanon]

But I guess since you are right even when you are wrong...

You're right.

I said "Kobe can possibly catch Jordan".

If Kobe catches Jordan, am I wrong?

If Kobe does NOT catch Jordan, am I wrong?

[Allanon]

Yes to a certain degree. Because it paints the picture of what Kobe will have to become.

Answer the question:

If I compared finished Magic to 30 year old Jordan, who would be the better player?

Do you think that it is accurate to compare end of career accomplishments versus a player who is still in his prime with 5+ years of playing left?

[Obstructed_View]

Why are you considering their peak number which is normally thrown out as oddball #'s? Practically all of those guys were known for their 3 point shooting since they entered the NBA. One of the best known 3 point shooters ever was Larry Bird and he was an 80s guy.

The stat had to do with attempts. Larry Bird was known as a three point shooter for all star weekend. In actual games, he averaged over 200 attempts only twice in his career. Next time there's a Celtics game on ESPN Classic I suggest you watch it and see how many shots he takes. If you see one and the Celts aren't down by double digits consider yourself lucky.

As mentioned, the '94 Rockets were one of the first teams to actually use the three point shot as a consistent weapon and to hit it at a high percentage. What you see today is in no way representative of what happened before that.

Jordan just didn't have the skill.

You should have your Laker fandom stripped of you for saying something so ignorant.