Your Vote, Your Reasons

[ratm1221]

Just out of curiosity - link?

I took a couple of religion classes in college. I know it's mentioned on this video, you should check it out. Interesting stuff. I love all religions, I just don't buy into it literally. There are great metaphors, though, if you don't try to make everything make sense. You can't really. That's why religious argument is so flawed. Too many holes.

http://www.amazon.com/ABC-News-Prese...4821450&sr=8-2

I'm not saying I'm an expert by any sense, but I took the time to take some classes and learn. The religious courses I took only made me more sure of my doubt that there is any kind of supreme being out there.

[anakha]

Yeah. He pissed me off with that trick in his special. That was the only trick where it was obvious that he used camera tricks and edited video to make it seem more spectacular. The actual trick makes it look like you are levitating a few inches off the ground. The special made seem as if he was four or five feet in the air.

It didn't help my viewpoint on him any when a second "Street Magic: Exposed" special aired which showed how he pulled off the encased in ice trick.

[Trainwreck2100]

You said many things, including:



First of all, I'd like to see where you got that 'science has already proven through science that it can't prove everything'. Do you have a link to this, or any kind of evidence?

Uncertainty principles

Second, if there's anybody that has no intention ever to find out whether god truly exists or not is religion, the complete opposite of science. On this very topic I would ask you: If science were to prove irrefutably that god does not exist, would you still believe in him?

probably go on a killing spree. Strangers of course.
Third, how could you claim that 'believing in something' is the 'easy way out'? It's entirely the opposite way. In order to not believe, you have to work hard to scientifically prove what you propose. Believing in the supernatural is the easy way out. You chalk up anything you don't understand to god, and move along.

You chalk up anything you don't know to ignorance, You chalk up anything you don't understand as unnecessary and move along
Fourth, please show me a quote of where I said that religion is stupid? I can show you a quote where I stated that I respect religious people and I think religion is what works for some people.

wherein the quote "religion=science" you said i said "science=stupid" wherein relgion equals science and science=stupid(your words not mine)religion may take the place of science to say religion=stupid

Fifth, the goals of science and religion have absolutely nothing in common. Please explain how you ended up with your conclusion that they're both the same thing?
You accept certain things as fact without understanding how conclusions were made.

For example, Spacetime Geometry in a Black Hole, its something proven by science, however, if i asked someone who believed science to be an absolute, to say it back to me would they be able to? would you?

theory's are accepted as fact and yet most don't know how that theory came to be or its inner workings

Sounds kinda familiar doesn't it?

Like it or not they have faith that the math is sound and that the guy smarter than them wasn't wrong, when in fact the average person couldn't prove them wrong if they tried.

[Trainwreck2100]

Ok, so I have two more things to say now that I finally caught up. First to PixelPusher, Jesus is KING of Kings meaning he RULES the Kings, ipso facto, he is a Spur.

Secondly, and this just came to me out of nowhere. If God is Fair and Just, and Jesus did indeed exist and did perform all of his miracles, isn't it a little unfair that his followers have a leg up as far as "faith" by the fact that they were able to witness these miracles personally and the rest of us poor souls only get to read about it 2000 years later? Doesn't the fact that He doesnt visit me (and you) personally and in the flesh, and perform some miracles prove that God is at least mildly exclusive and unjust?
Like I said, this is not some basis of my belief system, just something I literally just came up with.

Is it fair people back then lived without electricity. We get something and they get something, that's pretty fair

[Mr. Peabody]

Second, if there's anybody that has no intention ever to find out whether god truly exists or not is religion, the complete opposite of science. On this very topic I would ask you: If science were to prove irrefutably that god does not exist, would you still believe in him?

I don't know that science could ever irrefutably prove that God does not exist for the true believer. I think at best, it can prove that God is not necessary for the Universe to exist as it does.

I used to ponder how my life would change if one day science proved that we have no free will - that everything we did was explainable and predictable through physics. How would our society change? Probably not much. How would I change? Probably not much.

[PixelPusher]

Ok, so I have two more things to say now that I finally caught up. First to PixelPusher, Jesus is KING of Kings meaning he RULES the Kings, ipso facto, he is a Spur.

And the Lakers RULES the Spurs, ispo facto, Jesus is a Laker? Blasphemy.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

I used to ponder how my life would change if one day science proved that we have no free will - that everything we did was explainable and predictable through physics. How would our society change? Probably not much. How would I change? Probably not much.

I would have some serious questions for management and dibs on the complaint forms.

[ratm1221]

I used to ponder how my life would change if one day science proved that we have no free will - that everything we did was explainable and predictable through physics.

That's awesome, I like that. You came up with that?

[Mr. Peabody]

After leaving the church, I had the opposite experience. I found I that love, compassion, forgiveness, and integrity meant more to me, now that I embrace those values as my own, and not something I was compelled to do while under the great surveillance camera in the sky.

That was my experience. After I realized that my life was finite and that this was the only life I would live, I started to notice a profound change in how I lived life and treated people.

[Drachen]

Is it fair people back then lived without electricity. We get something and they get something, that's pretty fair

Well then you are going to move into a debate of if technological advances are made through divine intervention. If you want to say that they are, I have two responses:

First nothing we humans do is bad, since our inventions are divinely inspired, if got gave us the tech, then using it cannot be bad (as long as it doesn't offend the statutes that he gave to Moses).

Second I still call unfair, I get 77 (what's the avg. lifetime??) years of Air Conditioning in return for an eternity of fire. THEY, have to use candles to read and go jump in a lake to cool off, but they spend their eternity doing whatever is done in heaven (supposedly better than fire).

[Trainwreck2100]

Well then you are going to move into a debate of if technological advances are made through divine intervention. If you want to say that they are, I have two responses:

First nothing we humans do is bad, since our inventions are divinely inspired, if got gave us the tech, then using it cannot be bad (as long as it doesn't offend the statutes that he gave to Moses).

Second I still call unfair, I get 77 (what's the avg. lifetime??) years of Air Conditioning in return for an eternity of fire. THEY, have to use candles to read and go jump in a lake to cool off, but they spend their eternity doing whatever is done in heaven (supposedly better than fire).

If you don't believe in fire then you're fine

[Drachen]

And the Lakers RULES the Spurs, ispo facto, Jesus is a Laker? Blasphemy.

Nowhere does it say king of spurs, it says king of KINGS. (insert latin word du jour) Jesus is a Spur!

By the way, the fact that you would even put that last question into writing leads me to want to call the anti-christ and tell him not to wait for the end of the world to take you.

[Drachen]

If you don't believe in fire then you're fine

Unless its true and atheists are wrong. (I dont claim to be athiest anymore, but I also dont claim to not be athiest. In the last year or so, l have kept going back and forth on it.)

[Tully365]

.

I used to ponder how my life would change if one day science proved that we have no free will - that everything we did was explainable and predictable through physics. How would our society change? Probably not much. How would I change? Probably not much.

I was having a joking conversation about free will with a co-worker one day and one of our newer part-time employees-- a 20 year old girl in college-- interrupted us and said, "there's no such thing as free will... I learned that in philosophy class yesterday."

[TheMadHatter]

Ok, let me try to clear this up between you two.
TheMadHatter, Don't think about these last 52 (or 53 or so) pages, brand spanking new subject. What exactly would be the proof that would be required for you to believe that Jesus lived, was the son of God (this proof would obviously have to prove to you that God exists), etc. etc.? I don't care if you think it exists or not. What kind of proof do you require?

I have no idea what that proof would look like.

All I can say is that it would have to lead me to believe that Jesus Christ is real beyond any reasonable doubt.

[ElNono]

You said many things, including:



First of all, I'd like to see where you got that 'science has already proven through science that it can't prove everything'. Do you have a link to this, or any kind of evidence?

Uncertainty principles

Second, if there's anybody that has no intention ever to find out whether god truly exists or not is religion, the complete opposite of science. On this very topic I would ask you: If science were to prove irrefutably that god does not exist, would you still believe in him?

probably go on a killing spree. Strangers of course.
Third, how could you claim that 'believing in something' is the 'easy way out'? It's entirely the opposite way. In order to not believe, you have to work hard to scientifically prove what you propose. Believing in the supernatural is the easy way out. You chalk up anything you don't understand to god, and move along.

You chalk up anything you don't know to ignorance, You chalk up anything you don't understand as unnecessary and move along
Fourth, please show me a quote of where I said that religion is stupid? I can show you a quote where I stated that I respect religious people and I think religion is what works for some people.

wherein the quote "religion=science" you said i said "science=stupid" wherein relgion equals science and science=stupid(your words not mine)religion may take the place of science to say religion=stupid

Fifth, the goals of science and religion have absolutely nothing in common. Please explain how you ended up with your conclusion that they're both the same thing?
You accept certain things as fact without understanding how conclusions were made.

For example, Spacetime Geometry in a Black Hole, its something proven by science, however, if i asked someone who believed science to be an absolute, to say it back to me would they be able to? would you?

theory's are accepted as fact and yet most don't know how that theory came to be or its inner workings

Sounds kinda familiar doesn't it?

Like it or not they have faith that the math is sound and that the guy smarter than them wasn't wrong, when in fact the average person couldn't prove them wrong if they tried.

Well, I can't respond to these long posts from my iPod, but fear not, I am a very patient man, so you'll have your response to this cluster you posted tomorrow...

[LnGrrrR]

So how would you define a 'big miracle'? Keeping in mind the physical limitations of Times Square, of course.

Uhm... making everyone in Times Square float, making a dinosaur appear, changing every building to look at a mushroom, make everyone start speaking in a totally unknown language that they all fully understood, warp through space/time... some of these would suffice. I'm not too picky after all.

[Drachen]

I have no idea what that proof would look like.

All I can say is that it would have to lead me to believe that Jesus Christ is real beyond any reasonable doubt.

Really? Have you no understanding of your own mind? I am not asking what proof he should give the world that he exists, just you personally. Would it be living in a bottle, calling you master and getting you ready for your space flights? I mean, the world is yours here, what exactly would make you believe that Jesus Christ is real beyond any reasonable doubt?

[LnGrrrR]

Well, I can't respond to these long posts from my iPod, but fear not, I am a very patient man, so you'll have your response to this cluster you posted tomorrow...

You know, I never get this. Why would the non-existence of God mean it was ok to just start doing whatever you want? Do the liberties/rights of other people not matter?

And if God DOES exist, what type of signal are these people sending that they're only moral due to his existence, and not to some inner morality/reasoning/beliefs?

[Drachen]

Uhm... making everyone in Times Square float, making a dinosaur appear, changing every building to look at a mushroom, make everyone start speaking in a totally unknown language that they all fully understood, warp through space/time... some of these would suffice. I'm not too picky after all.

Did you mean look like a mushroom?? If so I think you found your way to make all of your "miracles" happen. Just take a bite out of one of those buildings!!

[LnGrrrR]

Unless its true and atheists are wrong. (I dont claim to be athiest anymore, but I also dont claim to not be athiest. In the last year or so, l have kept going back and forth on it.)

Yeah, but given the odds, being a Christian is really a minority belief. Best not to pick one in particular, I find.

[LnGrrrR]

Did you mean look like a mushroom?? If so I think you found your way to make all of your "miracles" happen. Just take a bite out of one of those buildings!!

Ha! Yes, good catch.

[Mr. Peabody]

That's awesome, I like that. You came up with that?

I don't know that I came up with it out of nothing. I took a philosophy of science class and the professor was discussing how some (maybe all?) physicists have posited that physics is the basis for all of the other sciences and how according to them, at some point we should be able to use physics to predict the outcome of any science experiment.

, it was over my head (I was a philosophy major, not a physics or any other science major), but I started to wonder about the implications on my life and society if this was true.

Ultimately, I decided that not much would change. We could still find reasons to punish people for crime, even though there was no choice involved during the commission of crime. There could still be societal consequences for people's actions.

In our own lives, we would still have the illusion of choice and that would be enough to sustain us from day to day. If I felt like I wanted a hamburger, it wouldn't necessarily matter to me whether my craving was based on the actions of some subatomic particles or whether it was my independent mind craving a hamburger. The fact would be that I would want a hamburger and would eat one.

Obviously there was more to it, but that's just a short summary of the process.

[MaryAnnKilledGinger]

Really? Have you no understanding of your own mind? I am not asking what proof he should give the world that he exists, just you personally.

I actually can't imagine what proof would look like to me, either. No matter how spectacular the actions, I'd likely think it was a hoax.

But, in theory if the whole God and Jesus thing is true, they would know my mind and my heart better than myself and know exactly what to show me.

[Mr. Peabody]

I was having a joking conversation about free will with a co-worker one day and one of our newer part-time employees-- a 20 year old girl in college-- interrupted us and said, "there's no such thing as free will... I learned that in philosophy class yesterday."

Nice.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.