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I'll remember to invest in a galvanized ski mask.
Believe me, if there's ever a sprinkler system thread, I will post some that will make your head explode... two times.
I'll remember to invest in a galvanized ski mask.
(insert Black Sabbath joke...)
Amen. I am around a lot of people who claim to be pro-life and they always want to talk about abortion. But you should see them when I try to bring up the death penalty. The most adamant pro-life, have to vote Republican woman of them all got mad and walked away when I told her that the death penalty is a life issue, as well. And the numbers do not matter. If you believe in the sanc y of life-- all life-- then even one death is too many. What bothers me so much about the death penalty is that the government itself is the one doing the killing, supoosedly in my name. My government pays someone to kill people. How could that not bother me if I believe all life is sacred?
It is inconsistent, at best, and hypocritical, at worst, to separate the basic core belief that makes abortion wrong from the belief that makes the death penalty wrong.
MAK-G, if you would, give us your thoughts on the following article (I believe everyone else in this forum has seen it, and given their opinion if they had one).
http://www.theinterim.com/1999/oct/15frted.htmlWhen does human life begin?
The most distinguished scientific meeting of recent years that considered this question in depth was the First International Conference on Abortion, held in Washington D.C., in October 1967. It brought together authorities from around the world in the fields of medicine, law, ethics and social sciences. The first major question considered by the medical group was, "When does human life begin?" Their unanimous conclusion (19-1) was as follows: "The majority of our group could find no point in time between the union of the sperm and the egg, or at least the blastocyst stage, at which point we could say that this was not human life." They continued, "The changes occurring between implantation, a six-week embryo, a six-month fetus, a one-week child and a mature adult are merely stages of development and maturation." (This quotation is taken from Handbook on Abortion by Dr. J.C. Willke.)
Some More Quotations
"It is now of unquestionable certainty that a human being comes into existence precisely at the moment when the sperm combines with the egg. When the sperm and egg nuclei unite, all the characteristics, such as colour of eyes, hair, skin, that make a unique personality are laid down determinatively." Dr. H. Ratner, Report April 1966.
"From the moment a baby is conceived, it bears the indelible stamp of a separate distinct personality, an individual different from all other individuals." Ultrasound pioneer, Sir William Liley, M.D. 1967.
"The birth of a human life really occurs at the moment the mother's cell is fertilized by one of the father's sperm cells." Life magazine, "Drama of Life before Birth," April 1965.
"A baby who has just been born is not brand new; he already has a life story. Human life begins when the sperm of the father enters the ovum or egg of the mother." The Life Cycle Library for Young People.
"When the sperm and egg fuse, the newly-formed cell has conferred upon it the degree of Sapiens, with all the rights and privileges pertaining." (Note, "Rights and Privileges.") Peter Amenta, Ph.D. Professor of Embryology, Hahnemann Medical School.
"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at conception. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence, from conception to adulthood, and any interruption at any point throughout this time cons utes the termination of a human life." Dr. A.M. Bongioanni, professor of obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania.
"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into existence. This is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception." Dr. Jerome Lejeune, genetics professor at the University of Descartes, Paris. He discovered the Down syndrome chromosome.
"It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception." Professor M. Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School.
"By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic.
"I oppose abortion. I do so, first because I accept what is biologically manifest - human life commences at the time of conception - and secondly, because I believe it is wrong to take an innocent human life under any cir stances." Dr. Landrum Shettles, pioneer in sperm biology.
How do you know this? If the soul is forever, then why would you not be able to repent after you died?
A question that's always confused me. Could God have given men free will, yet created us without the need to go to war? If so, then it makes no sense why he hasn't. (Or at least, none that I can see.) If he can not, then how is he omniscient?
Uhmm check your history. Our Pledge of Allegiance did not have a reference to any God until 1954. And that was because of hysteria towards communism. Might want to remove the beam from thine own eye regarding simple ignorance of facts.
Edit: Our money did not have "In God We Trust" at our founding. The first usage seemed to be 1864.
oops, jumping from numerous historical references to a non-denominational God to:
"Countless other examples of the influence of Christianity in the founding of this country"
See, "religion" as espoused by militant Christian supremacists, really does make one really stupid and dishonest.
"God" must love all y'all, because he made so many of you.
My first thought is that you have a 19-1 vote on something I don't think most people would argue. My next thought is that you're quoting from a group of people with questionable scientific credentials rendering one-sided opinions based on false logic and obviously outdated criteria. That's just from the information you showed; I'd have to research it on my own and see if everything was as slanted as you've presented and what the credentials of each individual were.
It's true no one can prove a lump of cells / embryo / fetus isn't a human life. But they cannot prove it is, either. And, when the very presence of a parasitical organism is a risk to the host (mother) -- no matter how slight the risk you may think it is -- criminalizing the rights of someone to defend their own body should at least require reasonable scientific verification.
I won't even go into the self defense side of things.
You're about to start a debate with someone who maintains it's a FACT human life begins at conception.
Hey so long as he can show his work, I'm happy to have a round and round on it.
I'll opt for a little philosophical humility and critical thinking this time around.
Impossible. There's no such thing as abusing free will. Free will if there is such a thing as god given free will...is exactly that. Free will. You can't abuse that.
If there is such a thing as abusing free will then we really don't have it if we have to put cages around it. Free will is meant to go everywhere and anywhere. Not be bound by any constraints whether god given or otherwise.
Me choosing not to follow any Christian teachings isn't abusing my free will. It's using it.
Like I've heard said before I don't think God would give is the ability to think, reason, and be intelligent, then command us not to use it.
Thanks for tipping my hand Shasta...
I don't think there's going to be a debate, MaryAnn conceded (correct me if I misinterpreted your post) that most people wouldn't argue that point.
For those that support abortion, the arguement doesn't center on whether or not life begins at conception, more so they argue that terminating a pregnancy, until the baby's life is viable outside the womb (24 weeks), is the sole right of the mother.
Smattering of thoughts:
-I'm not a proponent of criminalizing abortion, my sister, at 16, had an abortion, and although she has received nothing but unconditional support and love from her family, still has trouble coming to grips with her decision.
-There are roughly 4,000 abortions in America each day, roughly 1 every 20 seconds, for me, those numbers are staggering and mind numbing.
Question; If the thinking is that; those who are against abortion and for the death penalty, are hypocrites, wouldn't that logic mean that the person that is for abortion and against the death penalty is also a hypocrite?
A baby can be legally aborted up until the 24 week of a pregnancy;
At that time, here is some of the babies developement;
Week 21
White blood cells are under production. Leukocytes (or white blood cells) form our body's defense sytems. They help fight infections and diseases.
Your little one's skin has changed from translucent to become more opaque.
Your infant's tongue is fully formed. If you were able to peek you might catch your son or daughter practicing giving you a raspberry!
If your baby is a girl, her womb and vagina are formed. Unlike males, females have a limited supply of eggs in their lifetime. At this point your daughter will have 6 million eggs. This amount decreases to approximately one million by birth.
Baby swallows more this week. After your baby takes in amniotic fluid, his body absorbs the water in the liquid and moves the rest into the large bowel. This is good practice for his digestive system!
Wake and sleep periods become more consistent. Some research suggests that baby sets her internal clock to match the outside world's even before birth! Your eating and sleeping habits as well levels of light and noise serve as her signals.
Length is now measured crown to heel.
Baby measures about 10.51 inches (26.7cm) and weighs nearly 12.7 ounces/
Week Twenty-Two
Your baby weighs close to a pound at this point!
Your baby can now hear your conversations more clearly than before!. When you talk, read, or sing, expect her (or him) to hear you. Studies have found that newborns will suck more vigorously when read to from a book they heard frequently in utero.
Eyelids and eyebrows are fully formed.
Fingernails have grown to the end of the fingers.
Be prepared for all those "Why" questions coming! Your baby's brain has entered a stage of rapid growth, especially in what's called the germinal matrix. This structure deep in the middle of the brain serves as a kind of factory for brain cells and disappears shortly before birth. But the brain's amazing expansion program continues until around the five birthday.
With some help from mom, baby's liver is starting to break down bilirubin, a substance produced by red blood cells.
I
f your baby is male his testes begin their descent to the scrotum.
Primitive sperm have formed and he is producing testosterone.
Length is 10.94 inches (27.8cm); weight is nearly 1 pound
Week Twenty-Three
Proportions of the body are now quite similar to a newborn although thinner since he hasn't begun to form body fat.
Bones located in the middle ear harden.
Your baby is able to hear. (Dads, did you know: low-frequency sounds mimicking a male voice penetrate the abdomen and uterine wall better than the higher frequencies of the female voice?)
The eyes are formed, though the iris still lacks pigmentation.
The pancreas, essential in the production of hormones, is developing steadily. She has begun producing insulin, important for the breakdown of sugars.
If born now, your baby has a 15% chance of survival, his odds going up with each passing day. .
The average baby at this stage weighs 1.1 pound (501gm) and is 11.38 inches (28.9cm) long.
http://www.pregnancy.org/pregnancy/f...nt2.php#week23
That life can terminated...legally...in this Country...and terminated with the support and blessing of multiplied millions...
You raise some good points, I must admit as someone who is pro-choice I would have a hard time understanding my gf or wife wanting to go through with an abortion if her life were not in danger. That being said, it's not my choice to make. It's not your choice to make. It rests in the hands of the mother whether or not she wants to continue with the pregnancy.
I think focusing our energy here is foolish. Neither side will ever come to any sort of agreement on this issue. What we need to do is focus on preventative education so we can stop unwanted pregnancies. I also believe we need to fund more scientific research on birth control to find better alternatives to what we have. I can't tell you how many women I've met who won't take the pill because they are afraid of the side effects.
The problem with preventative education is that certain religions like Catholicism outright ban the use of contraceptives. Abstinence only education does not work in this country, it has been a horrible failure.
I conceded that neither side can prove an embryo or fetus cons utes a human being. You cannot prove it is, and I cannot prove it isn't. The ability to prove one way or the other is what I don't debate.
I disagree. Just because the pro-choice side is multi-tiered doesn't mean I concede one as being more important or "centered" than the other. I do not think a fetus unable to live outside the mother is a human being. That said, I also believe self-defense on behalf of the mother is equally valid. Anyone that understands what a fetus does to a body and the risks associated with pregnancy cannot deny that any pregnancy poses a possible health risk to the host/mother. Bottom line: Even if a fetus is a life, you do not have the right to force me to put my life in danger to save someone else. Pro-choice is multi-faceted, even without the other elements like the public good cop-out.
I sincerely hope your sister finds peace in accepting the actions of the past. It's a difficult world and we are not always happy with the decisions we are forced to make. She is genetically and socially conditioned to feel an obligation toward motherhood. Her conflict is unfortunate and all too common. I commend you and your family for treating her with acceptance and forgiveness even though she acted against your core beliefs.
We are agreed that this is a terrible thing. I suppose those numbers might seem staggering to people who don't realize what the nation's youth and uneducated poor are up against. But it's important to note that the same people who oppose abortion are largely the same people who've created those large numbers. The majority of the pro-life movement are against sexual education, against providing safe sex materials, against birth control, against masturbation and private sexual materials like pornography, and insist on pushing ridiculous abstinence programs even though they've been proven ineffective.
Your logic doesn't follow. Those who believe abortion is wrong believe it is wrong because a human being's life is being taken away. If it is wrong to take a life one way, logic demands it is wrong to take a life any other way, otherwise you are back to picking and choosing. Now, if you are saying that one type of life is more valuable than another, that's a different argument and a slippery slope. In such a case, even though one is not a hypocrite, they are certainly not on any higher moral ground.
Those of us that believe a fetus is not a human being do not consider it to be killing to terminate it. Even the worst criminal is still a human being. A person for abortion and against the death penalty would not necessarily be a hypocrite.
I'm going to ignore the fact that you intentionally used terms like "baby" and "little one" in the information you presented because it's a common tactic when one is trying to inject emotion into a logical debate. I don't think anyone argues that the longer a fetus gestates the closer it comes to becoming a human being. So, I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make except that the thing that starts off as a lump of cells begins to take on more human characteristics as time progresses. Your final line, however, saying "That life can terminated...legally...in this Country...and terminated with the support and blessing of multiplied millions..." again presupposes we all agree that it is a life. I don't. Many do not. Many others don't know and wouldn't presume to say with certainty.
I don't know. I'm always happy to discuss the issue with anyone who doesn't get all Bible-thumping mad-ass crazy about it. The only way we're going to come to terms with these sorts of things is to understand the other side. I used to think I knew all the arguements for the pro-life side and dismissed them, but the more I've listened, the more I've understood and that's helped me to make my own beliefs and arguements more clear (and less volitile) while discussing them.
+1 (sorry about the line-by-line quoting thing - I know you hate that)
I don't believe that anyone in their right mind would put the life of the baby before that of the mother, that argument is a red herring, therefore, it's use by abortion advocates is disingenous, purposefully twisting the position of those that are opposed to abortion to strengthen their own argument. Deceptive at best.
Thanks for the kind thoughts toward my sister, she shares the same core beliefs and has 3 healthy sons, her remorse is in her thoughts regarding what could have been.I sincerely hope your sister finds peace in accepting the actions of the past. It's a difficult world and we are not always happy with the decisions we are forced to make. She is genetically and socially conditioned to feel an obligation toward motherhood. Her conflict is unfortunate and all too common. I commend you and your family for treating her with acceptance and forgiveness even though she acted against your core beliefs.
(In my best Jermiah Wright imitation) No, no, no, no, no! That argument is the equivalent of Obama exclusively playing the race card while attributing racial innuendo to the opposition.I suppose those numbers might seem staggering to people who don't realize what the nation's youth and uneducated poor are up against. But it's important to note that the same people who oppose abortion are largely the same people who've created those large numbers. The majority of the pro-life movement are against sexual education, against providing safe sex materials, against birth control, against masturbation and private sexual materials like pornography, and insist on pushing ridiculous abstinence programs even though they've been proven ineffective.
Pro life advocates are not against sex education, and there are plenty of places to get free condoms if you can't afford them. For the many that don't use them, they're playing with fire, and if a pregnancy results from wreckless behaviour, that's on them, and them alone.
I'm not aware of an anti-masturbation movement, and what you refer to as "private pornography", is anything but private.
My belief is that abstinence is the best way to go, but in light of the fact that many aren't inclined to do so, and assuming they don't want to be impregnated, by all means they should be using some form of contraceptive. The catholic position on contraceptives (fwiw, I'm not catholic) has little bearing on the pregany/abortion ratio, if as you say, it does, please provide information that would support that.
I'm not so sure that bringing it up can be considered ignoring it.I'm going to ignore the fact that you intentionally used terms like "baby" and "little one" in the information you presented because it's a common tactic when one is trying to inject emotion into a logical debate.
Nice try.
Work beckons
Free will simply means that GOD doesn't control us like robots. He ultimately wants us to come to the realization that we need Him. Hence we ultimately have to the option of choosing Him or rejecting Him. Most choose the latter due to the corrupted nature of their hearts. But yeah, humans are basically "free" to do whatever they so desire.
So, god is constantly battling with this heart en y? Why didn't he create it not to battle with him? Was he bored?
So would you defend Obama's stand that survivors of failed abortions don't deserve a right to live, or that medical attention should not be "wasted" on them:I conceded that neither side can prove an embryo or fetus cons utes a human being. You cannot prove it is, and I cannot prove it isn't. The ability to prove one way or the other is what I don't debate.
I disagree. Just because the pro-choice side is multi-tiered doesn't mean I concede one as being more important or "centered" than the other. I do not think a fetus unable to live outside the mother is a human being. That said, I also believe self-defense on behalf of the mother is equally valid. Anyone that understands what a fetus does to a body and the risks associated with pregnancy cannot deny that any pregnancy poses a possible health risk to the host/mother. Bottom line: Even if a fetus is a life, you do not have the right to force me to put my life in danger to save someone else. Pro-choice is multi-faceted, even without the other elements like the public good cop-out.
I sincerely hope your sister finds peace in accepting the actions of the past. It's a difficult world and we are not always happy with the decisions we are forced to make. She is genetically and socially conditioned to feel an obligation toward motherhood. Her conflict is unfortunate and all too common. I commend you and your family for treating her with acceptance and forgiveness even though she acted against your core beliefs.
We are agreed that this is a terrible thing. I suppose those numbers might seem staggering to people who don't realize what the nation's youth and uneducated poor are up against. But it's important to note that the same people who oppose abortion are largely the same people who've created those large numbers. The majority of the pro-life movement are against sexual education, against providing safe sex materials, against birth control, against masturbation and private sexual materials like pornography, and insist on pushing ridiculous abstinence programs even though they've been proven ineffective.
Your logic doesn't follow. Those who believe abortion is wrong believe it is wrong because a human being's life is being taken away. If it is wrong to take a life one way, logic demands it is wrong to take a life any other way, otherwise you are back to picking and choosing. Now, if you are saying that one type of life is more valuable than another, that's a different argument and a slippery slope. In such a case, even though one is not a hypocrite, they are certainly not on any higher moral ground.
Those of us that believe a fetus is not a human being do not consider it to be killing to terminate it. Even the worst criminal is still a human being. A person for abortion and against the death penalty would not necessarily be a hypocrite.
I'm going to ignore the fact that you intentionally used terms like "baby" and "little one" in the information you presented because it's a common tactic when one is trying to inject emotion into a logical debate. I don't think anyone argues that the longer a fetus gestates the closer it comes to becoming a human being. So, I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make except that the thing that starts off as a lump of cells begins to take on more human characteristics as time progresses. Your final line, however, saying "That life can terminated...legally...in this Country...and terminated with the support and blessing of multiplied millions..." again presupposes we all agree that it is a life. I don't. Many do not. Many others don't know and wouldn't presume to say with certainty.
I don't know. I'm always happy to discuss the issue with anyone who doesn't get all Bible-thumping mad-ass crazy about it. The only way we're going to come to terms with these sorts of things is to understand the other side. I used to think I knew all the arguements for the pro-life side and dismissed them, but the more I've listened, the more I've understood and that's helped me to make my own beliefs and arguements more clear (and less volitile) while discussing them.
+1 (sorry about the line-by-line quoting thing - I know you hate that
"Helping them would go against the intial decision to have them aborted..."
"It would burden doctors to require them to come out at 2:00 AM just to try and save the life of an unwanted baby..."
Obama's arguments on the Illinois senate floor are inexcusable and indefensible. In this cir stance "survivors of failed abortions" are no longer tied to the health or desires of the mother; they are U.S. Citizens en led to "Life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness"...
Last edited by Phenomanul; 10-27-2008 at 10:20 AM.
He took that risk... He created us to LOVE Him, for His Glory.
By very definition... LOVE can't be genuine unless it is 'uncoerced'... Giving us free will, hence, gives humans the capability of truly loving Him. Without it we would be reduced to being mindless minions.
Another way of putting it is that "free will" brings out the best in humanity as well as the worst.
How could an ever-powerful god 'take a risk'? For what purpose? Again, was he bored and needed a challenge?
Just goes to show that your perspective of "GOD" is rather clichéed... and not founded on Scripture.
You really think that all the world's evil is GOD's fault? That it doesn't pain Him to see our decadence, our refusal to acknowledge Him? Wars, deceit, pain, bloodshed, greed were all bore out of man's evil heart.
If He hasn't killed us off in JUST payment for our actions, it's because He desired to give us the oportunity to find Him. One day however, that period of Grace will come to an end, and everyone will face judgement for their actions.
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