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  1. #126
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    I was listening to Dennis Prager (?) today and he played the audio clip at issue in this thread. Before he played it, he said "Now, you have to listen to this intelligently and keeping in mind the other things Barack has said to get the full meaning of this"

    In other words, "This clip really really doesn't say much without me spinning it for you afterward."

    It's hard to believe that this is the last week of the election and this is it. This is what the GOP is hoping will turn the election. This is the "game-changer" as Prager put it. This issue is so lame.....


    Prager is usually very fair. I listened to the clip of the interview and I didn't interpret it as Obama suggesting the court redistribute wealth. My understanding is Obama suggested more should have been done on the local level to "redistribute wealth". I do think Obama has got this absolutely wrong tough. There is no need to redistribute wealth. The need is to grow wealth in lower class and minority communiities. Taking from the rich and giving to the poor is just an illussion of doing something.

    the way to grow wealth in the lower class and minority communities is to encourage personal responsibility, create access to capital through the SBA and other methods*, require financial management courses be mandatory in schools, reduce the freakin cost of health care!

    *I would like for the government to allow direct fully tax-deductible contributions to the SBA of up to $25,000 per person. This would encourage the rich to invest in small businesses and give minorities access to capital. Plus, the SBA serves as a small business incubator. All interest from the loans would go back to the donee. This would be a great way of uniting and not dividing.

  2. #127
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    and when it doesn't happen in 8 years?

    Gawd, I am going to print a bunch of this kind of hand-wringing apocolyptic bull , and save it up.

    You might not be posting here in 8 years, but whereever I end up posting in a political forum, and I am going to spend a few days posting all of the "oh my god, he's a closet muslim that is going to impose sharia" and "oh my god we're on the road to "liberal fascism"" and laugh.

    If it doesn't happen in 8 years, will you admit you were wrong?

    Or will you bury the memory of your hysteria so deep that you will have forgotten it?
    No, of course not. Rather, they will argue that Obama was/is a fascist or a communist, and that he tried everything he could do to make this the United States of Social Fascists, or whatever bizarre formula they can concoct, but that he did not have enough house support to accomplish it, thanks to the efforts of the staunch right wingers who saved this country from being plunged into Armageddon. They will then do much as they are now: citing snippets of conversations and questioning the character of those Obama meets with. They will find a way to associate his behavior with socialism, communism, or fascism based on extremely loose evidence. They will then milk these points for all they're worth and draw up crazy cir stantial ties to make their logic fit with the Obama presidency.

  3. #128
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    FAct check people.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fac..._bombshel.html

    In other words, Obama says pretty much the opposite of what the McCain camp says he said. Contrary to the spin put on his remarks by McCain economics adviser Douglas Holtz-Eakin, he does not express "regret" that the Supreme Court has not been more "radical." Nor does he describe the Court's refusal to take up economic redistribution questions as a "tragedy." He uses the word "tragedy" to refer not to the Supreme Court, but to the civil rights movement:

    " One of the tragedies of the civil rights movement was that the civil rights movement became so court focused, I think, there was a tendency to lose track of the political and organizing activities on the ground that are able to bring about the coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive change."

  4. #129
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    you right-wingers are shilling for liars, but that's normal.

    The Facts

    "Obama Bombs Audio Uncovered. He wants to Radically Reinterpret the Cons ution to Redistribute Wealth!!" runs the YouTube headline from the conservative video blog Naked Emperor News. "This video exposes the radical beneath the rhetoric."
    On closer inspection, the "bombs audio" turns out to be a rather wonkish, somewhat impenetrable, discussion of the Supreme Court under Earl Warren. Obama, then a University of Chicago law professor and Illinois state senator, argued that the courts have traditionally been reluctant to get involved in income distribution questions. He suggested that the civil rights movement had made a mistake in expecting too much from the courts -- and that such issues were better decided by the legislative branch of government.

    You can read the entire transcript of the interview here, courtesy of Fox News, but here is the passage in which Obama explains that courts are "not very good" at redistributing wealth:
    Maybe I am showing my bias here as a legislator as well as a law professor, but you know I am not optimistic about bringing about major redistributive change through the courts. You know the ins ution just isn't structured that way.... Any of the three of us sitting here could come up with a rationale for bringing about economic change through the courts. I think that, as a practical matter, that our ins utions are just poorly equipped to do it.
    In other words, Obama says pretty much the opposite of what the McCain camp says he said. Contrary to the spin put on his remarks by McCain economics adviser Douglas Holtz-Eakin, he does not express "regret" that the Supreme Court has not been more "radical." Nor does he describe the Court's refusal to take up economic redistribution questions as a "tragedy." He uses the word "tragedy" to refer not to the Supreme Court, but to the civil rights movement:
    One of the tragedies of the civil rights movement was that the civil rights movement became so court focused, I think, there was a tendency to lose track of the political and organizing activities on the ground that are able to bring about the coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive change.
    Holtz-Eakin "read a different interview to the one I heard," said Dennis Hutchinson, a University of Chicago law professor who joined Obama in the panel discussion. "Obama said that redistribution of wealth issues need to be decided by legislatures, not by the courts. That is what a progressive income tax is all about."


    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fac..._bombshel.html

    ======

    The socialist slime just isn't sticking, because it's all desperate lies by losers.

  5. #130
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    FAct check people.

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fac..._bombshel.html

    In other words, Obama says pretty much the opposite of what the McCain camp says he said. Contrary to the spin put on his remarks by McCain economics adviser Douglas Holtz-Eakin, he does not express "regret" that the Supreme Court has not been more "radical." Nor does he describe the Court's refusal to take up economic redistribution questions as a "tragedy." He uses the word "tragedy" to refer not to the Supreme Court, but to the civil rights movement:

    " One of the tragedies of the civil rights movement was that the civil rights movement became so court focused, I think, there was a tendency to lose track of the political and organizing activities on the ground that are able to bring about the coalitions of power through which you bring about redistributive change."
    that's right on Joe, but still the concept of "redistribution" versus "creation" is problematic for me. redistribution is like taking money from one credit card to pay another credit card.

  6. #131
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    that's right on Joe, but still the concept of "redistribution" versus "creation" is problematic for me. redistribution is like taking money from one credit card to pay another credit card.
    Taxes ARE redistribution. You pay school/property tax that goes to build/support projects that may or not benefit you directly. Gas taxes that go to build roads that you may never drive on...etc.

  7. #132
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    Taxes ARE redistribution. You pay school/property tax that goes to build/support projects that may or not benefit you directly. Gas taxes that go to build roads that you may never drive on...etc.
    taxes are supposed to pay for such things as defense, clean water, infrastructure and other public en ies that are for the greater good.

    Implementing taxes to directly take from one party to give to another party is redistribution. For instance, the government demanding $2000 from me to give to you is what I'm referring to.

  8. #133
    Senior Member TheMadHatter's Avatar
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    taxes are supposed to pay for such things as defense, clean water, infrastructure and other public en ies that are for the greater good.

    Implementing taxes to directly take from one party to give to another party is redistribution. For instance, the government demanding $2000 from me to give to you is what I'm referring to.
    So your tax dollars that go towards the war in Iraq in which we gave no bid contracts to companies like Haliburton is different how? That's "redistribution" of wealth, just cleverly concealed so idiots like you wouldn't know the difference.

  9. #134
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    So your tax dollars that go towards the war in Iraq in which we gave no bid contracts to companies like Haliburton is different how? That's "redistribution" of wealth, just cleverly concealed so idiots like you wouldn't know the difference.
    you're an ideologue. there are plenty of other threads for you to play in. I'm having a conversation with Joe.

  10. #135
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    taxes are supposed to pay for such things as defense, clean water, infrastructure and other public en ies that are for the greater good.

    Implementing taxes to directly take from one party to give to another party is redistribution. For instance, the government demanding $2000 from me to give to you is what I'm referring to.
    I understand that logic. The billion dollar bail out is taking our tax dollars and giving it to the fat cats on wall street. It happens all the time and neither candidate is going to stop it.

  11. #136
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    I understand that logic. The billion dollar bail out is taking our tax dollars and giving it to the fat cats on wall street. It happens all the time and neither candidate is going to stop it.
    even if i agreed with you about the bail out, and I don't, but if I did would two wrongs make a right?

    as far as the bailout is concerned, it was designed to keep middle america employed and keep liquidity available for consumer loans.

    the fat cats don't need our help, that is why they are fat cats.

  12. #137
    Get Refuel! FromWayDowntown's Avatar
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    the fat cats don't need our help, that is why they are fat cats.
    They just need tax cuts?

  13. #138
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    They just need tax cuts?
    no, but the argument is that tax cuts stimulate the economy and creates jobs. Did you know that since the 2003 tax cut took place, Tax Revenues are at record highs.


  14. #139
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    even if i agreed with you about the bail out, and I don't, but if I did would two wrongs make a right?

    as far as the bailout is concerned, it was designed to keep middle america employed and keep liquidity available for consumer loans.

    the fat cats don't need our help, that is why they are fat cats.
    No, my point is that McCain keeps talking about re-distribution and his tax plan also has re-distribution so he doesn't make sense. And those fat cats ARE benefiting from the bail out.

  15. #140
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    no, but the argument is that tax cuts stimulate the economy and creates jobs. Did you know that since the 2003 tax cut took place, Tax Revenues are at record highs.

    So is the deficit and we've lost thousands of jobs.

  16. #141
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    "it was designed to keep middle america employed and keep liquidity available for consumer loans."

    Because the bailout always and still is a gift to the perpetrators, with no strings attached, the banks are not increasing lending, but sitting on the taxpayers' gift cash to shore up their balance sheets, and prepare for rainy days. The credit tightness, illiquidity is still in place with no signs of letting up. ie, Paulsen's giveway is failing.

    But the right wing go spittle-flinging rabid if HUSSEIN says he will income tax by 4% of small fraction of the top end earners.

  17. #142
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    No, my point is that McCain keeps talking about re-distribution and his tax plan also has re-distribution so he doesn't make sense. And those fat cats ARE benefiting from the bail out.
    where does McCain suggest redistribution? Also, the bailout was fully intended to help middle america, but we couldn't do it without some assistance to fat cats. The point is fat cats don't need our money, they like it, but don't need it.

  18. #143
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    where does McCain suggest redistribution? Also, the bailout was fully intended to help middle america, but we couldn't do it without some assistance to fat cats. The point is fat cats don't need our money, they like it, but don't need it.
    They may not need it but they sure do benefit from it.
    Are you joking? McCain's current stump speeches are a noun a verb and "re-distribution of wealth from Obama". The bail out was "said" to help middle Americans not lose their homes.

  19. #144
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    Breakdown "federal revenues" into personal income tax (househould income has been essentially stagnant for all of dubya's Reign of Error), corporate income tax, whatever.

    Household revenues stagnant, job creation not keeping up with population growth, where are these increased "federal revenues" coming from?

  20. #145
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    So is the deficit and we've lost thousands of jobs.
    so spending is a problem and i agree with that.

  21. #146
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    Breakdown "federal revenues" into personal income tax (househould income has been essentially stagnant for all of dubya's Reign of Error), corporate income tax, whatever.

    Household revenues stagnant, job creation not keeping up with population growth, where are these increased "federal revenues" coming from?
    I'm pro growth in the middle markets too, but it doesn't require us cutting off our noses despite our faces. We need to give the wealthy incentives to invest in lower income and minority communities. One of the best ways I can think of is allowing individuals to make a $25,000 direct tax deductible contribution to the SBA for the benefit of small and minority owned businesses.

  22. #147
    Senior Member TheMadHatter's Avatar
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    2centsworth is definitely drinking the RNC kool-aid in regards to trickle-down economics.

    Guess what, trickle-down has been proven NOT to work in our economy. Want to know why? Because when you give money to rich people they don't reinvest into our economy, that money goes to off-shore banking accounts and into foreign markets at a much higher rate than it goes into our economy. It's ridiculous to think that giving already wealthy people more money will somehow trickle prosperity down to the middle-class.

    Want to know how to directly stimulate the economy? Give more money to the working class, we KNOW they will spend that money directly on goods and services which will no doubt stimulate the economy.

  23. #148
    I can live with it JoeChalupa's Avatar
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    I'm pro growth in the middle markets too, but it doesn't require us cutting off our noses despite our faces. We need to give the wealthy incentives to invest in lower income and minority communities. One of the best ways I can think of is allowing individuals to make a $25,000 direct tax deductible contribution to the SBA for the benefit of small and minority owned businesses.
    Another tax deduction for the wealthy who can afford to give $25K as a write off? I'm no economic wiz I'm just asking.

  24. #149
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    2centsworth is definitely drinking the RNC kool-aid in regards to trickle-down economics.

    Guess what, trickle-down has been proven NOT to work in our economy. Want to know why? Because when you give money to rich people they don't reinvest into our economy, that money goes to off-shore banking accounts and into foreign markets at a much higher rate than it goes into our economy. It's ridiculous to think that giving already wealthy people more money will somehow trickle prosperity down to the middle-class.

    Want to know how to directly stimulate the economy? Give more money to the working class, we KNOW they will spend that money directly on goods and services which will no doubt stimulate the economy.
    take the blinders off and read the posts. nobody is talking about trickle-down economics. We're talking about increasing federal tax revenue which is what took place after the last tax cut. Maybe the increased economic activity is concentrated? I'm cool if that's your argument, but the fact is we need increased economic activity and increased federal tax revenues. The debate, and it's not so much a Obama vs McCain debate, is how best to grow while increasing opportunity?

    taking from one person and giving to another is silly and only intended to buy votes.

  25. #150
    Homer 2centsworth's Avatar
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    Another tax deduction for the wealthy who can afford to give $25K as a write off? I'm no economic wiz I'm just asking.
    when you say write off, please understand how it works first. if you give away $25,000 you save $8000 in taxes. Ok, so which one is more valuable, $25,000 or $8000?

    The incentive for the wealthy to give $25,000 is not only the $8000 tax savings, but most importantly the return on their investment which a recipient of an SBA loan would gladly pay.

    The way to relate it to your situation is your contribution to a 401k. Would you contribute if you got nothing back except the write off?

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