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Hopefully George's will is stronger than Beno's....
Pop is into rookie hazing.
Hopefully George's will is stronger than Beno's....
My usual kudos to Mr. Timvp on his game comments.
I totally agree that Bowen should be in the starting lineup when Tony and Manu are both out there. Finley playing 34 minutes is a waste.....5 points and no defense. Bowen, even if he's not scoring, is going to negate several points by the opposition, space the floor and help Tony and Manu do their thing.
I'm not sure I like having a second unit that isn't powered by the Manu. I still think we're stronger with Manu coming off the bench.
I'm hoping Mahinmi can get into the rotation at some point. If Tim had a big body in the paint with him defensively I think the team will be a lot better. We have no intimidator in the lane to team with Duncan. Even if Mahinmi's offensive game consists of him doing no more than cheating off double teams for open gimmes around the basket, his youthfulness on the defensive end and rebounding could be welcome. We won't compete for a championship starting Matt Bonner, in spite of his better play as of late. Work in Mahinmi as a starter, use Bonner as a backup, and relegate Oberto and Thomas to backing up TD.
In the pregame show, Pop said something about Mahinmi hurting his "other" ankle. Is this something new, or the same thing we've been waiting on since preseason...?
Is the guy so fragile he can't ever play an NBA game?
Great recao timvp
I think there are 3 things Pop must do
1 - Start Bowen over Finley.
2 - Ime and Oberto to the doghouse. Ime is playing S.Smith defense and Oberto can play D and miss everything near the rim.
3 - Play Hill. No more JV
I agree that tony needs to learn how to play with mason, and mason needs to figure out what his role will be now that he's not trying to replace our scoring duo. However, its ridiculous to say that manu hasn't been doing the exact same thing with mason and hill. You don't score 12 points in 11 minutes by being a team player.
Don't get me wrong I love the aggression, but Tony and Manu have major adjustments to make, much larger than most (including timvp) are giving them credit for. They are going from a team where they ARE the offense, to a team where there are new competent role players(hill, mason) and where former black holes have become somewhat reliable(finley, bonner). Its going to take time, and honestly there may not be a better way to adjust each players game, as well as break down any ego that could hurt our team oriented game plan, than throwing out random lineups and varying guy's minutes from game to game.
Of course this should happen less and less as the season goes on, but I believe there is good to be borne out from these tough losses with seemingly nonsense gameplans.
In Pop We Trust
Ive pretty much love to READ TIMVP. Most times always writting what Im thinking.
Today, I have a problem with Bonners assessment. Take a closer look at those rotations and physicality in the lane when it was needed. I could be wrong, but Im seeing something else.
Care to actually elaborate what you saw? That might help.
I also wish Hill had more than 6 measly minutes to prove himself. Finley had 34minutes to do jack , why cant Hill get 15? And KT had no time to do anything, yet Fab continually playing like ass gets time. Also, this hat on Bonner needs to step if he actually produces and plays smart. Not only did he hustle like always, but he actually played good D and snagged alot of rebounds.
And with Manu starting, WTF!?!?!? He needs to be energy off the bench with Hill. And Bruce needs to start again now, I'd like to see TP, Mason, Bruce, Tim, and Bonner/KT with Hill, Manu, Finley, KT/Bonner, and Fab to back them up. Fab and Fin shouldn't get another start til they play solid for A WHOLE WEEK. And JV should never be activiated again, I've already said there's 4 solid PGs right now, I cant believe Pop hasn't noticed.
That's an odd take. The Spurs showed plenty of improvement earlier in the season. This latest problem is all of two games old. It's not like the Spurs have been in their current struggling state the whole season.
This makes me wonder if you watched the game. The only times Mason got any type of quality shot was when Parker was in the game. When Mason was out there with any other combination, he was frozen out. Parker played pretty poorly but you are off base with this criticism.
And then saying Manu let things come to him? He and TP had the same exact problems. In fact, Hill not doing anything in the first half can be directly connected to Manu dominating the ball so much when he was paired with Hill. Manu at times took over point guard duties from Hill and was constantly calling for the ball. Hill deferred but Manu was helping him defer by taking so much of the ball handling duties.
Both TP and Manu are trying to figure out who to re-fit themselves back into the team. Neither one is doing a better job than the other one right now. If I had to pick one, I'd say the team is responding better to TP's suckage than Manu's suckage right now. TP was a +15 on the night before the fourth quarter, while Manu was a -10. A 25 point swing in close game is pretty massive.
could it get any worse for detroit and spurs?
Somebody didn't read the whole thread.
Yes, Hill was amazingly passive. But if you read the thread, you'll see where I say Pop's biggest mistake was not going back to Hill.
RIF before Rant. ©
Yeah, there was definitely a little bit of arrogance at play. The game in a nuts could be described by that one play where Manu threw a lazy pass to TP and TP lazily waited for the ball to get to him .... and it was stolen.
I wondered this two but after looking at the lineups the Pistons were playing while Duncan sat, I can understand what Pop was thinking. The lineups consisted of a lot of small ball or two mobile bigs. I don't think KT can guard Rasheed, Maxiell or Amir at this point in his career ... especially when the Spurs were already getting beat up and down the court.
Maybe fighting speed with muscle could have worked, then again we all know that Pop is a counter puncher.
You are. Can't we all just get past the Bonner hate? The guy is never going to be a consistent 20 point scorer, or average 3 blocks a game. But his man defense has been impressive, and as PT continues, his rotations (already pretty damn good) are going to be perfect.
Additionally, some wonderful reads these game thoughts are. Thanks Timvp
ok, tony and manu could do better than that last game, no doubt about it. but i still think, especially for tony, that they let a lot the ball out of their hands. they tried to force some plays after having seen, and Pop with them, like everyone who really saw the game, that mason, hill, fin, oberto, bonner, udoka, JV and bruce wouldn't do anything on offense.
and some of you need to understand that when tony or anyone else who lead the play is exchanging signs with Pop, it's not a kind of game : Pop runs the show and chose who take the shot and how many shots he takes. Stop acting like if the player, whoever he is, chose the style of basketball the spurs play. for me, tony, nor manu, surely didn't shoot too much, but what is sure is that Pop tell them if he want them to attack or to pass.
Wow, you just caused my bull meter to ing break off. You really think it wasn''t TP or Manu's fault that they both balhogged? Really? It never occurred to you that Hill and Mason took over their duties, and now no one really knows how to play together? And Hill was most definitely deferring too much, he should've drive are called for a play for himself at least once. But having a guy like Manu on the court could make any rookie/role player defer.
He should take some hints from Bonner, just get open and shoot it. He gave himself no chance to get into a rhythm.
nice thoughts timvp..
the only thing I disagree on is Parker's defense..I thought it was horrible..he switched late every time and had too many late rotations, and didn't contest a number of AI's shots in the 1st quarter..he gave him way too much room and Iverson made us pay..
Pop coached one of the worst games I've seen from him..he's easily the best coach in the NBA IMO, but he obviously has his flaws..Bowen not playing more should have been #1..he played great, and you would think Pop would trust him after all these years..Kurt should have played..Oberto couldn't guard anybody neither, but at least Kurt has been making shots and rebounding lately..that one was questionable..Pop's love affair with Finley continues..
I thought we played horrible transition defense and couldn't defend picks..our guys didn't come out on way too many occasions..
we still need some serious work with chemistry..we have 2 other options to score for the first time in a while, so it'll take a little time for Manu and TP to adjust..
Yes he is, but he is also into playing old bums who do notta like Vaughn alot of mins for some reason..... So it's a gift and a curse.
I think quite the mess is Pop´s fault, the Ginobili treatment may lead to players tthinking that no matter what they do, if no one produces off the bench, in time, one of them will be a starter again. The team has no feel on who is the man on court or who are the men out there. The rooks cannot learn anything if the system changes every night.
Pop is intelligent, i think the next game we will see The Return of th Champions, Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Duncan-Oberto and Hill-Mason-Udoka/Finley-Bonner-KT will have to learn how to contribute and produce OFF THE BENCH until they show they are worth starting, and not backwards as it seems on the Spurs. I know they all have produced as starters, but if they want to remain a spur you have to produce off the bench, because no matter who starts, you are never going to get more touches than the Big3.
and Finley... god i hate when he is in more than 20 mins.
How dare you question God Pop?
I know it's all in his Greatness' plan, I'm just too small to understand.
Nice write-up timvp.
Can't say there's much I don't agree with.
The melt-down was disturbing to say the least, but the benching of Hill is what got to me the most after the game. These are the type of games Hill needs to be playing in to advance the learning curve. I said it after the game in another thread, but Pop has got to give him the playing time, and Manu/Mason/Parker, need to defer a little to give him genuine opportunities to sink or swim running the team. Yes, he was passive offensively (and defensively after picking up 2 quick fouls) and I'd like him to wave off whoever is trying to take the ball from him as soon as he gets over half-court, but it's hard to expect that from a rookie. The vets need to give him some rope if they expect him to contribute down the stretch.
Maybe fighting speed with muscle could have worked, then again we all know that Pop is a counter puncher.
This is the brilliance and flaw of Pop's philosophy. (This is a little off the subject, but since you brought it up)
The team he's built into a champion, are in the mold of a Winky Wright. They're defensive minded, tactically sound, play the percentages, and generally win on points. Of course, they're also respected by people in the know, (if not feared by fans and opponents alike) but they're also not appreciated by the average fan.
When it comes to selling tickets and driving interest, those qualities don't resinate with the average fan. Another draw-back of counter-punchers is that they can have a hard time coming back if the opponent comes out aggressive and steals early rounds/build big leads. But the biggest negative to me in being a counter-puncher, is relying on the judges scorecard. When you keep a game or fight close enough? You're allowing factors outside the ring or court to decide the outcome. Often times leaving you to feel that you could of/should of done more, the better man didn't win, or just flat-out cheated.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being the "Winky Wright" of the N.B.A., (you can't argue with the success) but I wonder if that hasn't become part of the psyche of Spur fans when the team fails to win the championship. Sure, all fans have the coulda-woulda-shoulda/if only after a close playoff loss, but it seems to be more prevalent in fans of counter-punchers. Usually feeling that an outside factor was let to decide the bout.
(Then again, I'm probably just rationalizing how spoiled and en led we've become as Spur fans over the last decade
I respectfully disagree with TimVP. I don't think Manu ballhogged too much. 11 shot attempts in 28 mins is hardly ballhogging for him. In fact, there were stretches here and there where he never touched the ball for six, seven possessions at a time. He played like seven minutes in the 3rd quarter and took one shot.
He didn't have a very good game, for sure, but ballhogging was not the problem. What was the problem is that right now he has very little chemistry with Tony, having not played with him since last year and none at all with George Hill or Roger Mason. The point guard on the roster he seems most comfortable with right now is Vaughn because JV is programmed to get the ball to Manu and get the out of the way.
I think it will take two or three weeks for Manu to get back to 100% because he has had no training camp and no preseason, so he's trying to play his way back to health. It will take time, but I see some encouraging signs. Early in the 4th quarter it looked like he was about to try a monster flush from a decent distance away from the rim, but he got fouled on the takeoff so the crowd never got a chance to get energized. Still, the fact that Manu thought he could dunk it from where he took off shows me that he's getting pretty healthy.
He'll figure out how to play with Roger soon enough because Mason is a veteran. Hill, I'm not so sure about. He's not really a catch and shoot guy, so his game doesn't mesh too well with Manu's I don't think. As for the chemistry issues with Tony... well Tony's gonna be Tony.
Real subtle, there.
I don't think so...Pop doesn't change the starting lineup so early. Tonight we'll see more Parker Ginobili Finley Bonner Duncan.
I've said before about Bowen.
The Spurs need at least a good perimetral defender in the starting lineup. With Manu as starter I prefer Bowen over Finley.
Maybe Oberto on Bonner but only if Oberto can prove to be more effective when he's on the court with Manu. I appreciate Bonners rebounds, however his wrong selection and low IQ bsk, scare me.
On other hands, I hope Mase and Hill find their place in the team.
Last edited by wildchild; 12-04-2008 at 10:32 AM.
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