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As soon as I change my tag line....
Sean Elliott.
I consider Pop one of the top 10 luckiest all time basketball coaches. , he'd tell you that.
As soon as I change my tag line....
I would rather have Rasho than Kurt. Pop acted like getting this guy was so huge for the Spurs. Nice call, Pop and RC. It's worked out so well. Now we have this dude under contract for this year and the next. Good thing he's getting all that PT to up his trade value. Oh...wait, he got ZERO minutes against the Pistons. Oh well, I'm sure Pop knows what he's doing.
Well said. Have we seen Pop coach a team like Oklahoma? Very lucky indeed.
By far one of the most dumbest moves the FO has made. How anyone could see Kurt going anywhere but a sorry team and helping them is beyond me. The guy has been torched by all the younger bigs in the league. And we brought him here. And noone wants this guy. Bringing in Kurt basically said. We dont want the Championship this year. That was right after getting rid of Beno and bringing in Mighty Joke. Im telling yall. We are still suffering from some of the worst FO moves in the history of Pops stay. And our record shows it. And the way teams have been able to abuse us inside the paint is ridiculous. Not even in the 70s or 80s have teams had it so easy inside our paint. Its a dang shame we have alot of small greats and some sorry bigs. That mix doesnt go well. And we're living proof right now.I would rather have Rasho than Kurt. Pop acted like getting this guy was so huge for the Spurs. Nice call, Pop and RC. It's worked out so well. Now we have this dude under contract for this year and the next. Good thing he's getting all that PT to up his trade value. Oh...wait, he got ZERO minutes against the Pistons. Oh well, I'm sure Pop knows what he's doing.
I know this thread is to bash Pop, but why not consider the successes that Pop has had with his players?
Manu and Tony were not sure things coming here. Manu was great internationally, but had to grow into the NBA game. If you remember his first year with the Spurs he was anything but stellar. That magical year two that you mention is where is career took off. Drafting Tony Parker was a brilliant move because he was not nearly as proven in Europe as Manu, and did all of his maturing while in the NBA. Unlike Beno, Tony never crawled up into the fetal position in response to Pop's coaching style. Tony credits a great deal of his success to Pop's coaching of him in those first couple of years.
Bruce Bowen went from good to great while on this team. Malik had his best years here. I think the same could be said for Antonio Daniels. Mason appears to be fitting right in, as does George Hill.
Finley has been given every opportunity in this system, and won an NBA ring here as a starter.
As for some of the others you mention, Steve Smith's career was already dead when he showed up. It's hard to play guard in the NBA when your knees are gone. Derek Anderson wanted more money than David Robinson. DA proved to be a bust as his career went on. If the Spurs had locked $10 million a year into the contract he wanted we could have kissed those NBA les goodbye.
Nazr did nothing after leaving San Antonio, nor did Malik. If anything you should have made a post about how Pop made the most of their limited talents. Francisco was a 3rd stringer before he got here, and now he's out of the league. You'll have to remind me who Speedy Claxton and Jason Hart are because I haven't seen them do anything since they left the Spurs.
Beno is putting up decent stats on a crappy Sacramento team...until he leads a winner his performance there tells me nothing.
The only two people on your list that appear to have done a little better after leaving the Spurs are Hedo and Rasho, but they had to find systems they fit into...it wasn't like they are superstars that were being held back.
Anyway, Pop bashing threads are fun I guess, even if this one doesn't have a lot of merit to it.
Nick Van Bust ?
Pop: nobody is not perfect, not even Pop. Under the line 4 championship. His biggest mistake: NVE. He could managed some player better, played less small ball while he had chance etc. however under the line, there is a big +
Rasho: still best C at Spurs after DRob. Maybe could Pop utilized him better. I am still hoping that there is chance for reunion of my favourite NBA team with my favourite slovenian BB player next season.
That is true - but to Pop's credit, he took full advantage of it.
general responses :
1. Beno actually has had several minor injuries and other problems with the Kings, but because it's only news in Sacramento most people don't get it on their radar.
2. Stephen Jackson wasn't in the doghouse as far as his contract goes with Pop, but he was severely lowballed and blaming his agent for being dumb doesn't change any of that. They offered Stephen Jackson, starting young SG who had hit multiple huge 4th quarter clutch threes in the series clinching game 6 of the WCF as well as the le clinching game 6 of the Finals . . . Matt Bonner money.
I still don't understand the excusing of the Spurs for that. Another comparison: Just 12 months later the Spurs signed Brent Barry to be a bench player . . . Brent Barry was already well over 30 and past his prime (7 years older than Jackson) . . . who had never done anything in the playoffs . . . and his offer from the Spurs was for more years and more money per year. I don't recall the exact numbers but it I think it was Jackson's 3/9 offer vs. Barry's 4/18 or 4/20 contract.
3. Rose's doghousing and general decline in performance didn't start with the new contract, it started later with Robert Horry being signed, after Malik had an outstanding 03 season and Horry was garbage with the Lakers. Horry was given a big chunk of Rose's minutes and it messed with both his game and his head.
They offered a black hole of a starting SG with a streaky outside shot and poor ball handling skills Matt Bonner money after he did well in one post season during a contract year. How many guys have gotten big contracts on the basis of one good showing in the postseason and then busted? How many GM's in the league shared the Spurs opinion of him?
Hindisght being 20/20 I would rather have had him than Hedo in 04, but not with a contract that would have made resigning Manu or Tony more difficult.
A few random points:
Yes, Pop is lucky and has never been on a bad team for us to see what he could do, but so quickly we forget earlier this season when he helped motivate a team that had only one of the Big 3, a bunch of role players, and was going down the tubes FAST to an impressive string of games to get us back to .500.
I only wish Pop had beaten up Rasho. I think Mario Elie got tired of trying to make Rasho tougher with his dunking drills.
With all the doghouse talk how could we forget about Nazr? He sure did go in the doghouse fast after he didn't sign that extension in the Summer.
Stephen Jackson tried to come back and take the Spurs initial offer but the team had already decided they were going to pursue Hedo instead, so they could have got Jack back for that contract but decided not to.
Pop gave up on Beno before Beno gave up on everything. Beno's action was worse because he did it to himself, but looking back, it sure would have been nice not to have run down his trade value so much.
It's no wonder players don't want to come here unless it's for their first or last contract. Most player's value only go down when they come here, unless you're in the Big 3.
Last edited by The Truth #6; 12-04-2008 at 04:27 PM.
When Dave retired, Malik somehow thought he would move up to #2 big man, but instead the Spurs signed both Rasho and Rob. Everyone knew how much Pop loved those 2 guys and Malik never seemed to recover form his mistaken assumption.
Mario Elie never worked with Rasho and Nazr was given every chance to try to learn the offense and defense, but just could never get it.
Really? So that article I read in the Express about Mario Elie working with Rasho after practice on dunking while letting out a yell, (a hilarious image) as a way to increase his aggression, was a fabrication? Were you at the practices?
Neither Nazr nor Rasho were perfect. If one could combine the best of both we would have had a good center. They both had flaws. They both did some things well. Which is another way of saying Rasho wasn't that much better than him. Why people would rally around Rasho is a mystery to me - it's either fellow countrymen or women who wanted to bone him.
But Nazr was in Pop's doghouse. He had just helped us win a le but decided not to sign the Spurs' contract extension offer that Summer. And his minutes went down after that. If Rasho was playing head and shoulders above him I would understand it, but he wasn't.
My first comment was about the tremendous success that this organization has had, and I was 100% sincere. The nearest comparison I can think of for a small-market team is probably the Green Bay Packers. I guess you and I differ because I don't think that criticism always equates to bashing.
My observation is that some guys appear to thrive under Pop, and some get beaten down. They lose self confidence, and their performance declines while they are here, instead of improving. Some recover elsewhere, some... not so much.
Maybe the guys who are stars in the league, or used to be, have enough confidence to deal with the Doghouse, and not get discouraged. And maybe it's the second-tier guys who lose confidence in themselves, and begin to perform worse after they get here. That might not be correct, but it sort of fits the cir stances. The Big 3 are safe. The Finleys, Horrys, Kerrs, etc. can handle it because they know they belong.
All I know is that I've seen a consistent stream of guys who get a "deer-in-the-headlights" look after they have been here a while, and start looking hesitant on both ends of the floor. (The best current example is probably Ime. You can't tell me he doesn't look beaten down.) Maybe none of them were any good to begin with. But it seems to me that players would gain confidence after playing in a system for a season, and play looser rather than more hesitant.
We'll have to agree to disagree about how good Derek Anderson was, and could have been on the Spurs team. (That particular Portland team was probably the worst place he could have gone.) But Stephen Jackson sure as performed well after he left here. I think Roger Mason has shown signs of being another potentially good player who could go the same route as those two.
One point I think you are dead wrong on - in the 3-4 seasons after he left here, Jason Hart was a damned competent backup PG. He didn't get his teams into trouble, and when he was called on to fill in as a starter he did a very respectable job. His numbers show it, but I also followed him a bit. I would have much rather had him than NVE or Vaughn. His time here may have helped him get the next contract, but I don't think it did him any favors as a player.
Some people actually respond to praise, and Pop rarely ever compliments players. When he does, it's often sort of back-handed, or mixed with some criticism. Maybe he gives a lot of positive feedback where we can't see it. But from the outside, it looks like his second-tier guys suffer from the approach. If that's bashing, I guess that must be what I'm doing. It wasn't intended to be. Maybe I'm too much like Pop in that one tiny regard.
1. Him being streaky in a contract year? Matt Bonner in his contract year was out of the rotation and a fringe active roster player and got offered the same contract. Trying to justify the contract offered to Jackson this way is illogical.
2. Furthermore, say Jackson had been signed to the same contract or slightly less than Barry (still more than he was offered), the effect on re-signing Ginobili or Parker would have been . . . absolutely nothing!
Please do not forget that Manu was re-signed to his current deal and Brent Barry signed to his contract (a bit larger than offered to Jackson) the same day. There would have zero problem with giving Manu the same exact contract he has now if Jackson was getting paid Barry money.
Yeah, but I don't remember VanX extorting 35 minutes a game* on a regular basis all while sucking in every facet of the game. 15 minutes here and there, yes.
*premptive strike for the Fin n Pop Sniffers Club, I'm talking about the many -majority- of games Finley has sucked. Not the good ones he had in the 2007 playoffs. For those i am grateful. Still, thats once in three years for an ass who keeps getting mistakenly labeled as a clubhouse leader at 20 million per year. As if Duncan, GNob, Parker et all had less leadership than never-had-won-a-championship Finley.
Sorry, but your memory fails you. PJ worked with Rasho on rebounding and dunking using an apparatus you attach to the basket. Brett Brown- as the development coach- worked with Rasho on his post moves, shooting, and all sorts of weird drills where he picked balls off the floor repeatedly and dunked them and where he ran from side to side of the lane blocking imaginary shots. Mario Elie worked with Devin Brown.
Actually, The Truth #6 is right. Mario Elie worked with Rasho, specifically regarding dunking the ball. But the coach who worked with Rasho the most was Don Newman. Newman used his football drills to try to "toughen up" Rasho.
PJ rarely was a part of player development and Brett Brown works with everyone. Elie and Newman were at different points both specifically designated to Rasho's development.
Newmann did that Rasho's second year with the Spurs, but I was talking about the first one. PJ was the guy who specifically worked with Rasho and Hedo on rebounding that year.
Rasho was simply too passive on offense. When Tim was doubled, he rarely left his position at the top of the key for an easy pass from Tim for a layup.
And his opportunities for the short fifteen foot shot from the ft line were usually passed up. He was obviously deferring to the shooters--as does Oberto--but that can be a bad strategy when used so often that the other team takes advantage of it.
Elie worked with Rasho on dunking the ball. I saw it live, there was video about it on the news and there was an article in the Express-News about it. Not sure how you can tell The Truth #6 he was wrong when he was dead right.
Elie worked the most with Rasho and Devin. But mostly with Rasho considering that Elie and Devin never really got along because Devin was always late for their individual sessions.
The same way she crawdads out of bets shes lost and won't pay up on.
Oh, didn't see this one. Thanks for mangling my words and ignoring the salient points. I wasn't trying to justify anything by comparing Jackson to Bonner. I pointed out that 3 years/ $9 mil is a pretty reasonable for a guard with some definite flaws in his game and only one good postseason on his resume. Especially in the wake of Jaren Jackson's failure (whose game and achievements in '99 were on par with Jax's in 03) and especially if the Spurs were keeping an eye on the horizon with regards to the potential Manu showed them in 03 as well. Bottom line for any free agent is that the market dictates your worth. Where were all the other teams waiting to swoop in and capitalize on the cheap Spurs "lowball" offer and lock Jax up long term? I'm sure there were other contenders with at least the MLE who were kicking down his door to give him what the Spurs wouldn't.
As for the impact on resigning Manu, it becomes a what if game. Make no mistake the priority in the '04 offseason was to sign Manu, see what they could get with the rest. If the Spurs go to the negotiating table with a few less million to offer and another SG who still has multiple seasons left on his contract, who knows what happens? Well, I guess Manu could still have signed with the Spurs, or he could have shown the sort of professionalism and commitment to winning that Jax did...
man, these Pop haters annoy me..
why did the GM's name him the best coach in the NBA? because he CLEARLY is..you go to ANY fanbase's forums, you'll find most of their fans are jealous that we have Popovich..it seems like only some of our fans don't appreciate him..
there's nobody in the NBA that has the same combination as Pop..nobody combines the skill of x's and o's, with motivational tactics, and most importantly, in-game adjustments..
look at these examples..I can give you a number of examples with other teams..
Rasho? he has a le with us..we won despite him..Rasho has clearly improved his game over the years, he just wasn't as good with us..his numbers are higher because he's getting the ball a lot more in Toronto and in Indiana..his usage % kills any of the %'s he had during his Spur days..
Beno? just soft..Beno will never be a guy that puts up good numbers on a good team..he's a guy that will put up empty numbers, because he plays for a bad team..he's way too soft to be a starter on a championship team..
Turkoglu is the same as Rasho..he has a much bigger role on Orlando, and he simply wasn't as good with us..it's called improvement..
Matt Bonner has clearly responded to the Dog House this season..I've seen no indication that Hill is shook, and especially not from Mason..
stop naming these soft players that we let go of..Jackson is the only one I would love having on this team, but it was a money issue..Jackson was solid in his time here..
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