Israel wiping the floor with Palestine

[temujin]

israel don't care who they kill. israel doesn't want peace. this is a group of people that killed its own prime minister because he talked about peace.

Nah, that was Hamas, too.

[Extra Stout]

You're right, Israel pulled out of settlements in Gaza, I was thinking of the settlements they still have in West Bank.

You wrong, however, if you think there is nothing Israel can do to stop future violence. Since the Israelis left in 2005 they have been halting the distribution of international aid in Gaza, they have ins uted the much debated blockade of Gaza that has cut off the limited economy that remained there, and they have supplied Fatah with weapons and instigated a civil war.

Israeli politicians use the most extreme wing of Hamas as a propaganda tool to avoid meaningful dialog. It's a stalling tactic that Israel uses to delay the ins ution of the two state system.

If Israel would make an actual commitment to improving the conditions in Gaza and negotiating with Hamas, the situation could get better there. There is also a UN peacekeeping resolution for the Palestinian territories which the Israeli state has refused to allow to operate.

The violence will continue until both sides are strong enough to let the extremists that would seek to derail the peace process win. Over responding to Hamas is exactly what the extremists wanted, and Israeli politicians are playing right into their hands. For what? Political posturing before the elections?

Negotiating with Hamas is absurd. Why are their words never taken at face value? For their entire existence, they have never wavered from their commitment to return all of historical Palestine to Muslim control. What is there to negotiate about? The ground rules for the Jewish millet among those who weren't killed in future one-state Palestine?

If Israel were to relax their blockade, they would be rewarded with heavier bombardment of their southern cities and more deaths.

Sorry, but I think the two-state solution is wishful thinking. I do not know what else has to happen for it to be clear that the extremist groups have an unshakable will to attack Israel, and are constrained largely by Israeli repression. Maybe at some future point when the Hamases of the region are exhausted and lose their will to fight, there can be peace, but not until then.

Israel's first responsibility is to protect its own citizens. If it were to prioritize the chase of an imaginary, unattainable peace with implacable enemies and sacrifice its own civilians to do so, then I would call for the dismantling of the state because it would have foreclosed on its reason for existence.

I simply do not see your position as coherent. The Israeli state cannot exist with any level of security for its citizens unless the Palestinians are repressed, because the Palestinian extremists are too numerous and implacable, and their motivations at the root are religious and irredentist in nature, rather than socioeconomic. Maybe if you were to conclude therefore that the Israeli state should not continue to exist if that's what it takes, and that the Jewish population should be removed to prevent its massacre, at least your position might make sense.

[RandomGuy]

How about a WORLDWIDE condemnation of Hamas? How about a completely international effort to move into Palestine and remove the terrorists running the government?

That is not the way perception works. Welcome to reality, here is a quick primer:

People tend to root for the little guy, and in this case Hamas is obviously the little guy with rifles and RPGs versus tanks, jets, and helicopters.

Israel, whether justified or not, is seen as having a responsibility to limit civilian casualties. Such casualties are completely unavoidable in this situation, but this expectation is there.

This means that any civilian casualties become PR fodder for Hamas, who has a willing PR partner in the ONLY news organization that has reporters inside Gaza, Al Jazeera. There might be one civilian casualty for every 10 or 20 armed combatants, but care to guess whose blood will be splattered on TV screens?

Is this fair? No, not really. Israel does have some legitimate security interest here.

I see this as actually yet another mistake on the part of the Israelis. It is not only uniting Palestinians behind Hamas for specific cultural reasons that most Westerners aren't aware of, it is turning world opinion against them.

[RandomGuy]

The Israeli state cannot exist with any level of security for its citizens unless the Palestinians are repressed, because the Palestinian extremists are too numerous and implacable, and their motivations at the root are religious and irredentist in nature, rather than socioeconomic. Maybe if you were to conclude therefore that the Israeli state should not continue to exist if that's what it takes, and that the Jewish population should be removed to prevent its massacre, at least your position might make sense.

Unfortunately, I am begining to believe this is true.

This is about as untractable as it gets.

I am beginning to think that this conflict will continue for decades, if not centuries, until a nuclear exchange makes most of what is presently Israel too radioactive for humans to inhabit.

Israel is simply too militant to accept the only real solution that might actually leave the Israeli state intact, i.e. non-violent resistance. It is simply not in the Israeli DNA.

[Shastafarian]

Don't argue with them. These people love israel more than they love america. Why we donate billions of dollars a year and our latest military equipment to them is a ing joke.

If anyone hasn't caught on by now this is just one part of the many systematic slaughterings the Israelis have carried out to rid the world of palest.

For what a couple of Hamaas operatives do shouldn't be burdened on the entire people. This is going to be one of a humanitarian crisis. The dead and the injured are piling up to a level the country cannot sustain.

You know what I find to be a joke? That Yasser Arafat was offered pretty much everything he was asking for back in 2000 and turned it down. "[T]he Arab leader who would surrender Jerusalem is not born yet". We give them so much aid because if we didn't, they wouldn't exist.

[Rockhound]

Israel should conquer every one of those asshole countries and take care of that side of the world.

[TDMVPDPOY]

israel are a joke

The UN are telling them to stop, they wont.

If Hamas gets backup and could put up a decent fight expect Israel to come crawling to the UN asking for HELP.

[nkdlunch]

huh?

it's the UN who is a joke, it's been for decades.

Israel is playing with Hamas like a cat with a mouse. Have you ever seen a mouse put a decent fight?

[DarrinS]

Given the history of that region over the past 40 years, I think Israel shows remarkable restraint.


If they really wanted to, they could turn Gaza into a piece of scorched Earth.

[nkdlunch]

"if they really wanted to" that is null, it's like saying "if US really wanted to they would nuke Iran". truth is they can't

and "showing restraint", since when not commiting genocide is "showing remarkable restraint"?

[sook]

lol at all the same people who were barking at russia for the georgia issue apologize for israel.

One Israeli minister was quoted saying the Israel fears in palestine as does Russia in Luxembourg.

But its ok for Israel to use Gaza as target practice...

[DarrinS]

"if they really wanted to" that is null, it's like saying "if US really wanted to they would nuke Iran". truth is they can't

and "showing restraint", since when not commiting genocide is "showing remarkable restraint"?

What is it you think Israel should do?

[smeagol]

israel are a joke

The UN are telling them to stop, they wont.

Didn't the whole world tell the US not go into Iraq?

How did that turned out?

[nkdlunch]

What is it you think Israel should do?

- wait for the Obama govmt to establish and setup their policy on this issue
- stop the BS that they are actually doing this to help the Palestinian ppl
- stop the BULL TIN, about searching for a "permanent" solution to the conflict. There is no such thing
- maybe without all the BS and politics things might improve a little for both
- only thing that would improve this is communication without BS and politics involved, which is pretty much impossible
- this issue has no solution. They will be posting threads about this in 2029, if the world is lucky enough to still exist. which I doubt too.

[Winehole23]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053122.html

[DarrinS]

- wait for the Obama govmt to establish and setup their policy on this issue
- stop the BS that they are actually doing this to help the Palestinian ppl
- stop the BULL TIN, about searching for a "permanent" solution to the conflict. There is no such thing
- maybe without all the BS and politics things might improve a little for both
- only thing that would improve this is communication without BS and politics involved, which is pretty much impossible
- this issue has no solution. They will be posting threads about this in 2029, if the world is lucky enough to still exist. which I doubt too.

Wow, those are some great ideas.

[Cry Havoc]

"if they really wanted to" that is null, it's like saying "if US really wanted to they would nuke Iran". truth is they can't

and "showing restraint", since when not commiting genocide is "showing remarkable restraint"?

This is not a comparable analogy. Iran is thousands of miles from the U.S. and there is absolutely no possibility for us to be attacked. If Iran WERE lobbing missiles into the Eastern U.S., would you want us to wait for "U.N. approval" before reciprocating? Israel IS showing restraint because their own civilians have been killed and many more wounded by a neighboring country. They could do much worse and feel justified.

- wait for the Obama govmt to establish and setup their policy on this issue
- stop the BS that they are actually doing this to help the Palestinian ppl
- stop the BULL TIN, about searching for a "permanent" solution to the conflict. There is no such thing
- maybe without all the BS and politics things might improve a little for both
- only thing that would improve this is communication without BS and politics involved, which is pretty much impossible
- this issue has no solution. They will be posting threads about this in 2029, if the world is lucky enough to still exist. which I doubt too.

If you admit there is no solution, how can you possibly blame Israel? They could completely stop attacking Hamas, and it would not make one bit of difference in the number of missiles launched against them. They are doing what they feel is necessary to protect their citizens against a people that want to eradicate them from the planet by any means necessary. They could absolutely annihilate this force at any time, and yet they choose not to. If the roles were reversed today, Israel would cease to exist tomorrow.

[DarkReign]

I say " the entire region and everyone in it."

They want to play war, let them play war. Hamas wants to rattle sabres, Israel wants to get its gun on, I am all for it.

May the best man win.

[Heath Ledger]

lol at all the same people who were barking at russia for the georgia issue apologize for israel.

One Israeli minister was quoted saying the Israel fears in palestine as does Russia in Luxembourg.

But its ok for Israel to use Gaza as target practice...

Moronic statement of the day. If I recall Gerogia wasn't lobbing rockets daily into Russia. Russia did it because it wanted and because it could. Nothing more. The Jews want peace more than anything else but Hamas and its sympathizers like you have other ideas.

[Winehole23]

Moronic statement of the day. If I recall Georgia wasn't lobbing rockets daily into Russia. Russia did it because it wanted and because it could. Nothing more. .

The EU consensus was that Georgia provoked Russia with its unprovoked and indiscriminate s ing of Tshkinvali.

European capitals don't want to talk about who started the war, turning attention to the aid effort and saying Russia has failed to adhere to the six-point ceasefire plan it agreed with France and Georgia.


"Who started the conflict is not an easy question with an easy answer," the spokesperson for the German mission to the EU, Ricklef Beutin, said. "It's up for historians to decide," the spokesperson for the Dutch Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Rob Dekker, indicated. Spain "cannot take a concrete position" on the matter, a Spanish diplomat added.


But one EU diplomat privately blamed Georgia for the mess.


"Of course it was Georgia that started it, and the dialogue we have with Georgia will have to include this," the contact said, explaining that the EU is keeping silent on the matter so as not to diffuse its message on Russia's subsequent actions.



"We need to send a very strong message to Russia that what they did is not OK. On that, we're all very unified. That's got to be the focus.

[DarrinS]

They are doing what they feel is necessary to protect their citizens against a people that want to eradicate them from the planet by any means necessary. They could absolutely annihilate this force at any time, and yet they choose not to. If the roles were reversed today, Israel would cease to exist tomorrow.

quite true

[nkdlunch]

If you admit there is no solution, how can you possibly blame Israel?

I do not blame Israel. I just think it's unfair that for 1 innocent Israeli death, there are tens of dozens innocent Palestinian dead. And then Israeli goverment saying they are doing this to "help Palestinian ppl too" and the timing of this right before Israeli elections is perfect

If the roles were reversed today, Israel would cease to exist tomorrow.

Depends on the situation. beleive me if israel govmt(not ppl, because it's goverments who do mass murders) could, they would wipe out Palestine. But they can't, and how go down in history next to Hitler? think about it

[Cry Havoc]

I do not blame Israel. I just think it's unfair that for 1 innocent Israeli death, there are tens of dozens innocent Palestinian dead. And then Israeli goverment saying they are doing this to "help Palestinian ppl too" and the timing of this right before Israeli elections is perfect

What SHOULD they do? It's not like Israel asked Hamas to attack. Unless you have a more inventive idea for response to unprovoked violence against a county's own citizens, I think you should perhaps give a better idea of what's "acceptable" retaliation. Should Israel say, "Ok, well for every civilian you kill of ours, we kill one of yours?" That would only encourage Hamas.

Also, a huge proportion of Israelis who just want to live in peace, so your assertion that this is solely for election votes is without merit unless you can back it with facts. I don't see a problem with making a statement that you will do whatever it takes to defend your own people, if that's what you're asserting.

Depends on the situation. beleive me if israel govmt(not ppl, because it's goverments who do mass murders) could, they would wipe out Palestine. But they can't, and how go down in history next to Hitler? think about it

Now you're simplifying things. You can't honestly say that unless you have a way to back it up. I think if Palestine left Israel alone, they would be left alone. I would seriously hesitate to accuse someone of having the desire for mass genocide without something verifiable. You make a lot of assertions, and in particular the last one is gravely serious, one I wholeheartedly do not agree with.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I read somewhere on the 'net that it's false to say Hamas caused this episode of violence. Yes they have been lobbing rockets into Israel, but supposedly Israel never truly honored the cease fire to begin with. They set up a special security zone within Gaza that violated alot of human's rights, and have been retaliating with force all along.

Not sure if its true, anyone heard anything about this? Too tired to do some hardcore info diggin, but I'm curious.

[sook]

does anyone even know what Kat. rockets are? They have no true target, you fire 100 of them and maybe 3 will actually hit something. Compare that to f-16 bombing and its laughable...