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But MJ was doing it and winning. Kobe did it, and the best they did was go 45-37 and a first round exit.
No, I'm not even slightly interested in whether or not MJ could score 81 exactly like Kobe. I'll leave those hypotheticals to the people more obsessed than I am.
Just saying, you can't make a statistical comparison between the two with any validity. At least concerning the first few years of Kobe's career.
But MJ was doing it and winning. Kobe did it, and the best they did was go 45-37 and a first round exit.
Kobe has range on Jordan; that's it. That range is more than negated by Jordan's ability to penetrate, which kills Kobe's even though Jordan had to do it in the hand-check era and not the can't touch the guy era Kobe plays in.
Hey, I think mj's the better player... and the better scorer... and the better winner. I'm just saying you can't compare their stats to reach such a conclusion.
I was watching the '88 All Star game on ESPN Classic, and Jordan was ridiculous. He was doing moves I've only seen in that 05-06 season from Kobe.
You can't?
Okay. How about the 6 Finals MVPs? How about 33.4 points per game in the playoffs? How about the seven SCORING les Jordan won? How about the (easily) 3 or 4 more he could have won if he wanted to?
You say you can't compare stats to reach a conclusion here. What the are you going to compare then? Your subjective argument that "omg Kobe scored 81 in a game that didn't freaking matter he's the best zomg!!!!"?
This isn't even a debate. It's not even close. You're comparing a guy that has NEVER LED HIS TEAM TO A LE and stating he's a better scorer than the greatest player of all-time?
I don't even need to defend Jordan further. Your argument and incredibly biased conclusion are dead. They aren't even in the realm of consideration. Any non-Laker fan who's older than you (alive and able to remember the 90s) would never ever ever ever say that Kobe is a better offensive player than Jordan.
Havoc- reading is fundamental.
Hey, I think mj's the better player... and the better scorer... and the better winner.
The majority of my post wasn't directed at you. But the fact is that Jordan's career average in the playoffs is over 33 points per game. That's a stat that is absolutely central to the discussion. So yes, you can use stats to compare. Stats that you CAN'T use are worthless 81 points against the Raptors, or 61 in the Garden during a regular season. Both scores came against hapless teams that have no ability to play basic defense. Jordan could have likely averaged 50 points per game in his prime, but his team would have paid for it with a lesser record.
That's fine... but who was it directed at? The only stat I was talking about was how many times they averaged 30+ over the course of a season. My only point was that Shaq influenced Kobe's scoring, so while some statistical comparison can be made, obviously, the number of times they each averaged 30+ should be excluded.
By the same token though, you could ask yourself how many times Jordan held back from dominating even more than he already did, to save his team wins. I am pretty convinced he could have averaged 40-45 ppg over most of his career had he wanted the recognition that went with it. If you factor in Shaq, you also have to take into account how much winning meant to Jordan, even more than scoring 50+ points whenever he needed to make a statement. It's obvious that Kobe wants the limelight. For Jordan, that was a by-product of winning.
I'd agree, but that's a far more subjective argument than I'm willing to engage in any further. You've opened Pandora's box and maybe it'll go unnoticed on a Sunday night, but if I were you, I'd prepare to defend that argument from the rabid Kobe propagators.
Okay, I'll put it like this. Either:
A: You take away Shaq? Fine. Kobe has 0 les.
B: You take away Shaq to inflate Kobe's stats? Fine. Take away Pippen.
You didn't just compare Scottie Pippen to Shaq, did you??
That's a very simplistic way of looking at what he just said....
Oh, arguing with ifs. Okay, my turn: Take Pippen off any of those teams and Jordan averages 40. Kobe puts up some impressive numbers because he's a more willing three point shooter than Jordan was.
Man this Jordan vs. Kobe thing is killing me.
Didn't we all agree that Jordan >>>> Kobe and let's put this Kobe vs. Jordan to rest.
If you want to talk college, Kareem has a far better record. He won 3 with UCLA and thier record was 88-2I know some people here aren't happy about the Finals MVP being named after Russell, but i'll ask you this who has ever taken a college team (that too Univ of San Francisco) to 55 straight victories and 2 national championships?
The guy is just not appreciated enough. Jordan may be the ultimate scorer, but Bill Russell will always be the ultimate winner.
BTW Stern should've named the Larry O' Brien trophy after Bill Russell..
You can make all kinds of statistical comparisons. Jordan played on bad teams very early in his career before he developed his post game, his three point shot, and that turnaround jumper that became one of his signature shots, and he still averaged 37 points per game. Kobe played on bad teams during the peak of his ability and didn't score as much despite putting up some completely historic scoring runs.
Besides, people that even suggest Kobe's a better scorer with a straight face obviously didn't see Jordan play. Those folks should at least scan the stats before they decide to make such a statement. That's all I was saying. Kobe's probably the third or fourth best scorer in NBA history, but he's not first or second.
Did you just compare UCLA with San Francisco?
Uh, no. He was a great player, arguably the greatest on one end of the court. On the offensive end, he was average to below average. He had lots of help winning those rings and a lot credit should go to Red Auerbach. Auerbach was a shrewd evaluator of talent and he surrounded Russell with eight other Hall of Famers to create their dynasty.Bill Russell is the sole reason why the Boston Celtics have 11 championships.
In my humble opinion, Bill Russell is the most overrated basketball player of all-time.
As much as I hate the Lakers, Magic Johnson was the GOAT.
You could make an argument that George Gervin was a better pure scorer than Kobe is.
I said Kobe was "probably" the third or fourth best. There have been some amazing scorers over the years and the difference in eras will always spark debate. For that reason, I could make the argument that Gervin is a better scorer than Kobe far better than I could make the argument that Kobe's a better scorer than Jordan.
Completely agree.
I'm still not entirely sure Kobe has mastered the cerebral aspect of basketball. That's really what set Jordan apart -- his ability to win games on intelligence and cunning, instead of overpowering others with his physical abilities.
actually MJ>russel but the name dedication is appropriate.
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