Human Nature

[101A]

I'll provide you sources later today - I don't have much time right now. However, if you're so inclined to do some searching you may want to look up the sky rocketing percentage of students in remedial courses and the over inflation of grades in both high school and college

You have no idea. One of CHIEF barometers used to judge my wife's "performance" is student evaluations. Near the end of a semester students are given a note card with 3 or 4 categories, and a 5 number scale for each. ALL students responses are given equal weight - the senior major with a 3.9 vs. the Freshman whose about to flunk out, and this is his/her parting shot. What is a professor to do to make sure they don't get excoriated by those evaluations? Make tests easier; give extra credit; , just bump the grades up a letter each. Self-preservation being what it is, many professor do just that. Those that don't get tough reviews; and chastisement from their dept./dean.

Last semester I helped my wife grade some Freshman Chemistry tests; on the first page she had a series of metric conversions for the kids to do; fewer than 40% could convert from cm to mm. THOSE students got to evaluate her.

When I went to school, the professor, the school, everyone as far as I was concerned, could give two s what I thought of the professor.

[MannyIsGod]

so why are you blaming colleges for the lack of knowledge that students coming out of high school have?

Lamenting what colleges have become =/= blaming colleges.

[101A]

This thread has gone in a lot of interesting directions... several tables each with their own discussion... like a virtual pub...

So whottt distilled from the whotttisms is saying, if I gather correctly, that the leftist has an legitimate beef with the evils spread by European colonialization, but his downfall is that the very anthropologists he disdains, because their work debunks his beliefs, cannot be so easily cast aside, since they more than anybody else are likely to be his ideological fellow-travelers.

I totally agree with those who criticize our educational system. We have taken egalitarianism so far that we think that everybody should go to college, which dilutes the meaning of college. We denigrate lucrative skilled blue-collar careers, and then can't understand where our manufacturing industries have gone. We can't decide whether we want our higher learning to be on the classical model, in which a person receives a broad liberal arts education that has little or nothing to do with a career, or the German model, in which a person receives a finely targeted technical education tailored for a specific profession. We somehow think that a liberal arts education qualifies someone for a specific profession, and also that a technical degree makes somebody broadly educated.

In this culture, college has become just another product. In exchange for money, a student receives a product which he can parlay into a better job. Colleges sell themselves based upon payback: you can earn $20,000 more per year for 50 years, so we're going to charge you something close to the net present value of that $1,000,000 for the diploma. It doesn't matter whether you learn anything (as if an English degree is going to qualify you for a career in business), so it doesn't matter whether we teach you anything. We just want to make the customer happy.

Changing subjects, PixelPusher, I don't know whether I would call Jesus "educated" in the sense of having had a bunch of educational training. I think the point of the story where he as a 12-year-old was debating the Pharisees was that it would be surprising for a 12-year-old to hold his own with the trained religious scholars. It is part of the underlying theme being communicated through the text that Jesus had special insight into the Scriptures because they are about Him, and he has discernment not because of intellectual training, but because of a noetic connection with the Father attained through prayer and obedience.

A big reason Jesus is depicted as so frequently berating the religious scholars was because in his eyes (and those of the nascent Christian community), though they had so much knowledge about the Scriptures, they yet did not understand them in terms of Him.

I would regard micca's assertion of Jesus being "plain-spoken" to be unbiblical (and possibly reflecting the lamentable American evangelical exaltation of anti-intellectualism). Jesus said that he intentionally spoke in parables because they were hard to understand, so only those "illuminated" by the Spirit would catch on. When the disciples failed to understand, often he had to explain his metaphors to them.

I would dispute cool hand's assertion that Jesus was smart because he was God and therefore was omniscient. That edges on Docetism. Jesus was fully human and dwelled in a finite body with a finite mind. A theology of kenosis (lit. "emptying") casts into sharp relief the deep meaning of divine condescension in the Incarnation. It means the God who created the Universe took on all the weaknesses and limitations of man in order, by uniting God and man in one body, to redeem men to God. As I typed above, Jesus' insights and teachings then spring not from a putative omniscience while on Earth, but from his prayerful obedience to the Father.

The practical application would be that having command of a bunch of intellectual facts about Christianity (e.g., me) is not the kind of "knowledge" Jesus is concerned about. A person can know the Scriptures backwards and forwards like the Pharisees did and have it gain them nothing. The person who puts Jesus' teachings into practice, who is obedient, who prays for God's will to be done on earth as it is in heaven, who gives up life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, who does not seek "middle-classedness" (did I just quote Jeremiah Wright? Damn me!) but rather labors for the Kingdom of God, who serves others rather than himself, who tries to make things right in his little section of the world because he believes that's what the Father is going to do in the end for all creation, the person who LOVES, that is the one who "knows."

Scripture appears to present a tension between faith and reason. On the one hand, Jesus tells his followers to have faith like that of a child. I take that to mean the believer has a certain naivete. I think the concept of the "second naivete" applies here. I cannot become a child again, I cannot unlearn what I have learned, but after all my simplistic beliefs have been deconstructed, I nevertheless find meaning in my faith and trust in what I cannot see anyway. Paul goes on a polemic against the philosophers and intellectuals, saying that Christian beliefs such as the Resurrection are "foolishness" and a "stumbling block" to them because they do not see with the eyes of the Spirit. He says God makes wisdom into foolishness and vice versa.

On the other hand, after a long discourse about the Atonement, Paul appeals to reason in exhorting the believer to give oneself completely over to God in response to grace. Furthermore, when John refers to Jesus as the Word, he is not introducing a new idea. He is referring to the Logos concept articulated by Philo of Alexandria, and is claiming that the person Jesus is actually the human embodiment of divine Reason itself.

[Extra Stout]

You have no idea. One of CHIEF barometers used to judge my wife's "performance" is student evaluations. Near the end of a semester students are given a note card with 3 or 4 categories, and a 5 number scale for each. ALL students responses are given equal weight - the senior major with a 3.9 vs. the Freshman whose about to flunk out, and this is his/her parting shot. What is a professor to do to make sure they don't get excoriated by those evaluations? Make tests easier; give extra credit; , just bump the grades up a letter each. Self-preservation being what it is, many professor do just that. Those that don't get tough reviews; and chastisement from their dept./dean.

Last semester I helped my wife grade some Freshman Chemistry tests; on the first page she had a series of metric conversions for the kids to do; fewer than 40% could convert from cm to mm. THOSE students got to evaluate her.

When I went to school, the professor, the school, everyone as far as I was concerned, could give two s what I thought of the professor.

This is because colleges are not concerned with making sure students learn. They are concerned with making sure customers are satisfied.

[Blake]

So ask yourself a couple of questions:

1. Why are there more college degrees out there and have we lowered the standards of higher education in order to achieve this or are college graduates of today on average comparable to those in the past?

more college degrees out there? compared to when, who or what?

What standards of higher education are you talking about? Is college algebra easier today than it was in say 1950?

I have no clue what your vague question is referring to.

2. If we have diluted the average education level of a college entrant what type of an effect on the end product of our colleges and universities. In otherwords, can we put weaker students en mass into these schools and expect the same level of graduates?

The weaker students are put into the remedial classes until they catch up, remember? I guess memory really isn't your suit.

Again, instead of your constant broad sweeping generalizations, real sources would be nice.

[MannyIsGod]

I totally agree with those who criticize our educational system. We have taken egalitarianism so far that we think that everybody should go to college, which dilutes the meaning of college. We denigrate lucrative skilled blue-collar careers, and then can't understand where our manufacturing industries have gone. We can't decide whether we want our higher learning to be on the classical model, in which a person receives a broad liberal arts education that has little or nothing to do with a career, or the German model, in which a person receives a finely targeted technical education tailored for a specific profession. We somehow think that a liberal arts education qualifies someone for a specific profession, and also that a technical degree makes somebody broadly educated.

In this culture, college has become just another product. In exchange for money, a student receives a product which he can parlay into a better job. Colleges sell themselves based upon payback: you can earn $20,000 more per year for 50 years, so we're going to charge you something close to the net present value of that $1,000,000 for the diploma. It doesn't matter whether you learn anything (as if an English degree is going to qualify you for a career in business), so it doesn't matter whether we teach you anything. We just want to make the customer happy.

in the middle of responding to Blake I missed this. Solid post.

[MannyIsGod]

Ok Blake. Universities are not glorified trade schools. I was wrong. Peace.

[johnsmith]

So let me get this straight. Manny is in his late 20's. He's spent most of his 20's attending college.

If you have so many issues with it, why have you spent a 1/3 of your life there?

[MannyIsGod]

You have no idea. One of CHIEF barometers used to judge my wife's "performance" is student evaluations. Near the end of a semester students are given a note card with 3 or 4 categories, and a 5 number scale for each. ALL students responses are given equal weight - the senior major with a 3.9 vs. the Freshman whose about to flunk out, and this is his/her parting shot. What is a professor to do to make sure they don't get excoriated by those evaluations? Make tests easier; give extra credit; , just bump the grades up a letter each. Self-preservation being what it is, many professor do just that. Those that don't get tough reviews; and chastisement from their dept./dean.

Last semester I helped my wife grade some Freshman Chemistry tests; on the first page she had a series of metric conversions for the kids to do; fewer than 40% could convert from cm to mm. THOSE students got to evaluate her.

When I went to school, the professor, the school, everyone as far as I was concerned, could give two s what I thought of the professor.

40% of College level freshman can't multiply by factors of 10. I'm amazed these people are even allowed into this course to begin with. If I was your wife I'd be pissed I had to deal with that.

Its all pretty broken.

[MannyIsGod]

So let me get this straight. Manny is in his late 20's. He's spent most of his 20's attending college.

If you have so many issues with it, why have you spent a 1/3 of your life there?

You got one thing right. You got something else extremely wrong. Its funny to watch myths propagate around Spurstalk.

[johnsmith]

You got one thing right. You got something else extremely wrong. Its funny to watch myths propagate around Spurstalk.

ok

[Blake]

Here's a hint. Use scroll or read. Nearly everyone of my posts has the point restated.

which is that you really have no real point

Sure anytime you learn something it means you've become more educated. That doesn't mean the proper place for this type of learning to occur is in our state university system.

Then what's the proper place? If college graduates don't make our society more educated, then how do we get more educated?

Its not bad when an individual tries to increase their earning power. Its bad when society's use of ins utes of higher learning is to provide adequate job training for everyone.

As long as you can still get your lib arts degree when you want to, why is this a bad thing?

In the past, this was called high school.

so I guess now it's college? Why is this bad again?

Overtime the burden for this type of training has shifted to colleges and universities.

a burden that colleges gladly accept. There's a reason why Our Lady of the Lake is offering accelerated business classes in order for you to get accepted into graduate program

This is bad for several reasons. It begs to question just what the point of high school currently is, to begin with. Why aren't our students graduating with skills they can use and with appropriate skill levels in math and English?

so you finally figured out that we have problems with our grade school education system. Good for you!

In addition, it raises the costs and lowers the efficiency of university and colleges which in turns leads them to producing graduates who are worse than the graduates of yesteryear.

again, is it really to much to ask you to copy and paste something from a legitimate source instead of just you talking out of your ass?

In other words Blake, they've become glorified trade schools.

in other words, you are going on basically nothing but your own assumptions on the way things are in the collegiate world.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I do believe a college education wasnt what it once was, partly due to overcrowding, partly due to no motivation by the student to better his or herself....but I don't look at the overcrowding, and increasing qualifications for jobs as direct evidence the 4 year college education isn't what it used to be.
I see lower quality of education partly as a result of overcrowding.

[johnsmith]

I miss college. If I had to do it all over again, I'd drink more while in college. Maybe add Monday's to my days of the week that I drank.

I always took Monday's off.

[Bartleby]

This is because colleges are not concerned with making sure students learn. They are concerned with making sure customers are satisfied.

The cynic in me agrees with this, but I think it's important to note that many (most?) profs truly are committed to teaching. As 101A pointed out, the pressure to keep student retention levels high and graduate happy customers usually comes indirectly, by way of student evaluations.

They are a crude way to measure performance, but many ins utions give them significant weight in the hiring and promotion processes, particularly when it comes to junior faculty positions.

[Blake]

You have no idea. One of CHIEF barometers used to judge my wife's "performance" is student evaluations. Near the end of a semester students are given a note card with 3 or 4 categories, and a 5 number scale for each. ALL students responses are given equal weight - the senior major with a 3.9 vs. the Freshman whose about to flunk out, and this is his/her parting shot. What is a professor to do to make sure they don't get excoriated by those evaluations? Make tests easier; give extra credit; , just bump the grades up a letter each. Self-preservation being what it is, many professor do just that. Those that don't get tough reviews; and chastisement from their dept./dean.

Last semester I helped my wife grade some Freshman Chemistry tests; on the first page she had a series of metric conversions for the kids to do; fewer than 40% could convert from cm to mm. THOSE students got to evaluate her.

When I went to school, the professor, the school, everyone as far as I was concerned, could give two s what I thought of the professor.

I have no doubt about professors looking out for themselves before the students but I think the grade bumping is not as rampant as all that to where it noticeably drags down the quality of the course.

How many students did your wife "help out" in order to get a good review from them?

[Blake]

Ok Blake. Universities are not glorified trade schools. I was wrong. Peace.

Ok

[Blake]

So let me get this straight. Manny is in his late 20's. He's spent most of his 20's attending college.

If you have so many issues with it, why have you spent a 1/3 of your life there?

since he doesn't really know what a hyperbole is, I'm guessing 1/2 of that 1/3 was spent in remedial courses.

[Blake]

You got one thing right. You got something else extremely wrong. Its funny to watch myths propagate around Spurstalk.

you mean myths like how universities are nothing more than glorified trade schools? yeah, that is pretty funny.

[Blake]

I do believe a college education wasnt what it once was, partly due to overcrowding, partly due to no motivation by the student to better his or herself....but I don't look at the overcrowding, and increasing qualifications for jobs as direct evidence the 4 year college education isn't what it used to be.
I see lower quality of education partly as a result of overcrowding.

I recall the overcrowding in the freshman level classes that are/were held in large auditoriums with very little student/teacher interaction.

The upper level classes are always much smaller.

[Extra Stout]

The cynic in me agrees with this, but I think it's important to note that many (most?) profs truly are committed to teaching. As 101A pointed out, the pressure to keep student retention levels high and graduate happy customers usually comes indirectly, by way of student evaluations.

They are a crude way to measure performance, but many ins utions give them significant weight in the hiring and promotion processes, particularly when it comes to junior faculty positions.

I agree profs are committed to teaching, for the most part. The exceptions are the ones who are committed to research, and see teaching as this thing they have to do for their job.

Administrators, on the other hand, especially if they are political appointments... I believe the new president of Texas A&M said in not so many words that his vision was to make sure his student-customers are satisfied. In my view, this makes him prima facie incompetent, but he's a Perry crony, so that's not surprising.

[Bartleby]

Administrators, on the other hand, especially if they are political appointments... I believe the new president of Texas A&M said in not so many words that his vision was to make sure his student-customers are satisfied. In my view, this makes him prima facie incompetent, but he's a Perry crony, so that's not surprising.

True, and it's not just the high level administrators. I have a friend who was berated by her dept. chair for giving students too much work to do outside of class.

What really sucks is that the chair has been there more than two decades. She simply goes through the motions and hates it when anybody rocks the boat. My friend has a tenure-track appointment and is waiting for her next contract. It's ed up.

[Blake]

The cynic in me agrees with this, but I think it's important to note that many (most?) profs truly are committed to teaching. As 101A pointed out, the pressure to keep student retention levels high and graduate happy customers usually comes indirectly, by way of student evaluations.

They are a crude way to measure performance, but many ins utions give them significant weight in the hiring and promotion processes, particularly when it comes to junior faculty positions.

Not just that, but i think everyone can agree that not all ins utions are equal.

I think we can all agree that Harvard > UTSA > ITT Tech

[MannyIsGod]

I agree profs are committed to teaching, for the most part. The exceptions are the ones who are committed to research, and see teaching as this thing they have to do for their job.

Administrators, on the other hand, especially if they are political appointments... I believe the new president of Texas A&M said in not so many words that his vision was to make sure his student-customers are satisfied. In my view, this makes him prima facie incompetent, but he's a Perry crony, so that's not surprising.

You need look no further than the actions of Ricardo Romo and how he's trying to increase the prestige of UTSA. Hooray for commuter school football.

[101A]

I have no doubt about professors looking out for themselves before the students but I think the grade bumping is not as rampant as all that to where it noticeably drags down the quality of the course.

How many students did your wife "help out" in order to get a good review from them?

I should link her "ratemyprofessor" page; but we're not quite THAT familiar on here; in short; she doesn't.

What she does do is go above and beyond with assistance to those students who never should have been in the class in the first place. 2-3 study sessions prior to tests, etc....but still a lot of the idiot students don't come to those.

Her reviews from her Freshman classes suck bad because she DOESN'T play the game that way - she comes up for tenure next year; only then will we find out how much her idealism costs. It's not all professors, but those who are having to support a family on that job have to do what they have to do. My wife has some flexibility in that regard.