Exactly. You can't point back at the 7 minutes Gooden played and say it was because of him we lost the game. Bonner's bad D and Pop's funky lineup late in the game were much more to blame.
Wasn't that same decision the basis for this thread?
Bonner got abused by Scola in the first half. In the second half, Scola mostly abused Duncan. Bonner held his own against Scola in the second half for the most part after getting curbstomped in the first two quarters.
The question is whether that time is now. Does Gooden playing help the Spurs win games at the moment? If not, is it worth putting him on the court in hopes of future gains?
How is Drews +/- ?
Is he as bad?
IMO yes..we just lost a game to Boston because of something you'll never see again in an NBA game..we lost to Houston due to a huge choke job down the stretch..
we're still in these games, despite Gooden learning..we SHOULD have won both games..
I see where you're coming from though..I don't mind having Gooden play more against teams we should easily beat, like non-playoff teams..a month is a long time..
he's also a better finisher than any of our non-Duncan bigs, and that's without question..so I think he'll look better playing with Manu, as opposed to guys that can't pass like Mason and Finley..
In a different game with different cir stances. I was of the opinion that he might have played better in the Minnesota game if at least given another shot to atone for his mistakes in the first half. We also had no Duncan, which further fueled my opinion in that game. I also stated earlier in the thread that if he started to look like he was not picking it up then I was all for putting him back on the bench.
But the same logic that you use by not wanting to put Gooden in could also be used for Bonner. We all watched him get smashed by Scola in the first half...so why not give Oberto a try? The door swings both ways.Bonner got abused by Scola in the first half. In the second half, Scola mostly abused Duncan. Bonner held his own against Scola in the second half for the most part after getting curbstomped in the first two quarters.
Giving Oberto more time isn't what I'm contemplating. The question is whether or not Gooden is helping. If you think Gooden is helping more than Bonner, which I disagree with, then I guess that's the direction you can go.
IMO, Bonner knowing the system gives the Spurs a better chance to get the W, even though Gooden is likely the better player if all things are equal.
Isn't that why we signed him? We have a deficiency that is created by Oberto. He's the problem, not the solution.
If not, why bother with Gooden?
It's a bit of a catch 22. It may take time for Gooden to really be able to help, but he cannot help if he does not learn. I think trying him in stretches like we saw today should not dictate whether or not we have a chance win.
You had initially stated when you bumped this thread that you felt like Oberto might have given us a better chance to win if he had gotten Gooden's minutes...and you might be right. But one could just as easily say that giving Oberto some of Bonner's minutes could yield the same result.
Yes. Frankly, there's really no other option.
Pop's got to do what he's already done with Hairston, and come to some conclusions on who is, and who's not, going to be playing come playoff time. No one wants to lose games and fall back in the standings, but if you don't do it now, when do you?
Times running out, and if the guys you need come playoff time are still learning playbooks or how to play together during the post-season, I don't think it really matters all that much where you are in the standings.
It's championship or bust with this team, so as much as it may not make sense to risk potential seeding with an acclimation by fire, at this point in the season, it's really what needs to be done.
Gooden is going to have to play a significant role for the Spurs to get where they want to go, so they might as well start it now. Record be damned.
Giving Oberto minutes would be a repeat of the NVE scenario all over again.
You know he's not able, but keep pressing the same button in the vain hope that magic somehow might happen.
Interesting theory. If playing in the second quarter doesn't affect the outcome, perhaps Pop can suit up the Coyote during the first half and try to make more money for Holt Cat
How about the option of waiting to break out Gooden in important games when Ginobili returns? I don't know if giving him 20 to 30 minutes in these type of games is going to advance him much. Especially when everything will change once Ginobili is back in that second unit.
I can't equate Hairston's situation and Gooden's situation. Gooden will have a role come playoff time. But I think that delaying his education could have been a better mix of win now and win later.
For championship aspirations, I just don't think the Spurs can win the championship with less than a second seed. Winning three series on the road would be too tall of an order.
That's why I'm so much in favor of playing to win now. One more injury or another bad week and the Spurs could find themselves being on the road in the first round.
Reasonable. Appears to be Pop's thinking as well.Gooden is going to have to play a significant role for the Spurs to get where they want to go, so they might as well start it now. Record be damned.
I just don't agree. That second seed is too important and with the bench dynamic changing within the next week or so, the risk/reward of starting Gooden's education now doesn't seem worth it to me.
Too bad the Coyote isn't a 6'10, 250lb solid rebounding/scoring big whose main strike against him is that having to learn a new system and learn the tendencies of his teammates on a 15 game crash course.Interesting theory. If playing in the second quarter doesn't affect the outcome, perhaps Pop can suit up the Coyote during the first half and try to make more money for Holt Cat
Are you measuring to the tips of his ears?Too bad the Coyote isn't a 6'10, 250lb solid rebounding/scoring big whose main strike against him is that having to learn a new system and learn the tendencies of his teammates on a 15 game crash course.
Left that out...dammit.Are you measuring to the tips of his ears?
I don't get that analogy, at all.
Oberto is a glue guy, who's play, on the whole, gains net-positives for the teams overall flow and chemistry when he's on the floor. He knows the system offensively and defensively, and if nothing else, usually is not going to get you beat.
NVE was brought in to take Beno out of the equation, after Pop witnessed the Detroit series, but he was an older scorer with an injured elbow, which turns out to be not all that conducive to a guy who's a defensive-liabilty.
May as well face it...Popovich is just gonna keep in around with his little scatter-brained jekyll and hyde lineups and no one is gonna be in any kind of rhythm when playoff time comes. I'm not sure how Gooden is supposed to develop and learn anything when he's playing the kind of minutes he is.
Not much, if anything at all, is going to change defensively when Manu returns. I'm not all that worried about the offensive-end of the floor, but the more time he's out there playing in the scheme, building trust, and learning the games of teammates he's never played with, the better imo.(in the long run, at least)
Wasn't really a point about Hairston, just a reference to making a decision and sticking to it. I'm not real happy with that decision, but it's the type of decision that needs to be made, if they're ever going to be able to set a rotation.I can't equate Hairston's situation and Gooden's situation. Gooden will have a role come playoff time. But I think that delaying his education could have been a better mix of win now and win later.
The thing is, I really don't disagree with you. I find it pretty hard to believe they're going to go all '95 Rockets on the leagues ass, but I guess there is a possibility.For championship aspirations, I just don't think the Spurs can win the championship with less than a second seed. Winning three series on the road would be too tall of an order.
That's why I'm so much in favor of playing to win now. One more injury or another bad week and the Spurs could find themselves being on the road in the first round.
With the uncertainty of the Big 3's health and the overall continuity of the team in flux, I just feel that Gooden's success has gone from what would have been a luxury (under normal cir stances) into much more of a necessity.
Getting him up to speed at the expense of seeding isn't ideal, to say the least, but it sure seems like it's what's needed to be done under the cir stance.
Completely understand where you're coming from, it just seems to me the that the only prospect for a reward at the end of the tunnel for this team, is if all hands are on deck and in sync, as soon as possible.Reasonable. Appears to be Pop's thinking as well.
I just don't agree. That second seed is too important and with the bench dynamic changing within the next week or so, the risk/reward of starting Gooden's education now doesn't seem worth it to me.
Again, not ideal, but really seems to be their best shot imo.
That could be the problem right there. The Spurs were hoping/expecting Manu to have been playing two weeks ago. There's still no firm date for his return. If they were waiting on Ginobili playing to break out Gooden they could possibly be waiting until opening night in the 2009/2010 season if Ginobili has a setback.
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