Top 10 of all time NBA: I include Tim Duncan, do you?

[Mavs<Spurs]

Yes, Charles Oakley, Horace Grant, Derek McKey, Anthony Mason, Larry Nance, Buck Williams, Rick Mahorn, Kevin McHale, AC Green, Rodney McCray, Michael Cooper, Bill Hanzlik, Danny Vranes, and Bobby Jones were monster compe ion in front of poor Karl Malone and his all-world defense.

Wow, now there's a lot of fun we could have with that list.

Rodney McCray ? (Louisville)

Larry Nance ?

Oakley was decent, but all world ?

No disrespect to Horace Grant, but ... ?

Anthony Mason ?

Buck Williams was a decent defender, but certainly could have been surpassed by a defensive maestro, especially the great Defensive Presence, Karl Malone !

Thanks for making me laugh, Baseline Bum ! Some good snark !

[Lakers999]

Well, then, we agree.

sorry for the hate its playoff time

[Mavs<Spurs]

It is very hard to pick from Shaq, Duncan and Olajuwon as they all have very similar credentials.

Duncan is at the point in his career where some fans are forgetting how good he was in his 2003 form. The Duncan of today is still an elite player, but no where near the same as then. Even though his stats are still good, he is not being double teamed as much as the past. That means that he is not the dominant offensive force he once was, when no one could defend him man to man.

As far as comparisons go, there are several factors. One is -- you HAVE to distinguish between "peak" and "career" value when comparing players. The first is the peak level, or the best 2-3 year period when a player was in his prime. The 2nd is the ulative, or career consistent value. For example, at his best Shaq was a more dominant player than Duncan ever was (though not by much.) However, over the course of his career Duncan has been a more consistent performer, and helped his team more.

The 2nd factor is that it is impossible to compare players of different eras. It is better to create "teams of the decade" for the 60's, 70's, 80's etc. No one really knows if the players of the past were better, worse or different than today's. The game is always changing and in different eras it takes different skill sets to succeed.

Finally, Moses Malone is a player who is often overlooked but he did it all in his career.

Some excellent points !

[Lakers999]

Wow, now there's a lot of fun we could have with that list.

Rodney McCray ? (Louisville)

Larry Nance ?

Oakley was decent, but all world ?

No disrespect to Horace Grant, but ... ?

Anthony Mason ?

Buck Williams was a decent defender, but certainly could have been surpassed by a defensive maestro, especially the great Defensive Presence, Karl Malone !

Thanks for making me laugh, Baseline Bum ! Some good snark !

why dont you mention the centers that malone had to switch off on....

[dbreiden83080]

IMO, your list is off, because i have Timmy ahead of Bird all time for sure..

[baseline bum]

oh CMON that was against Jordan and Pippen....

to be all honest you guys real compe ion was us and Detroit

No, the first example was against Shawn Kemp. The last was against Brian Grant.

[Mavs<Spurs]

sorry for the hate its playoff time

No worries. At least you have a playoff to look forward to !

I don't.

It was Kobe Bryant that willed us to victory in the Olympics.

I was so thankful that he was on our team and when it got stupidly close, I was like, "Okay, Kobe, please take over and don't let us lose !" And I knew Kobe would not let us lose !

He was awesome !

So, if Kobe wins this year, I'm not against putting him in my top ten.

I really wanted U.S. to win the Gold this past year and Kobe is the reason why we won the Gold Medal Game and why we won period !

Wish Kobe were on our team.

[Lakers999]

Yes, Charles Oakley, Horace Grant, Derek McKey, Anthony Mason, Larry Nance, Buck Williams, Rick Mahorn, Kevin McHale, AC Green, Rodney McCray, Michael Cooper, Bill Hanzlik, Danny Vranes, and Bobby Jones were monster compe ion in front of poor Karl Malone and his all-world defense.

re ed!!! you know and i know that malone had to switch off on some of the HOF centers.... i.e kareem, parrish, olojuwon... etc... and besides some of those guys you mentioned were the second units of their teams.... what about james worthy, barkley, erving... etc..

[Mavs<Spurs]

IMO, your list is off, because i have Timmy ahead of Bird all time for sure..

I used to also.

But Tim was so dominant up until recently. I guess I just got spoiled / jaded a little.

[dbreiden83080]

Duncan is at the point in his career where some fans are forgetting how good he was in his 2003 form. The Duncan of today is still an elite player, but no where near the same as then. Even though his stats are still good, he is not being double teamed as much as the past. That means that he is not the dominant offensive force he once was, when no one could defend him man to man.

I have to agree. I have the Spurs 03 finals on DVD like most Spurs fans do and that was truly Timmy at his best. He is still a great player but back in 03, this man was one of the best big man of all time on both sides of the ball, just amazing....

[Lakers999]

Wish Kobe were on our team.

well if he opts out this year.... then you guys have to trade a boat load of players for cash just to sign him LOL

[Mavs<Spurs]

I have to agree. I have the Spurs 03 finals on DVD like most Spurs fans do and that was truly Timmy at his best. He is still a great player but back in 03, this man was one of the best big man of all time on both sides of the ball, just amazing....

I have it also. I will have to watch it again.

That game 6 was one of the best games that I have ever seen anybody play.

It was like 20 points, 20 rebounds, 10 blocks and 8 assists or something close.

Almost a quadruple double in the final game of the NBA Finals !

[Mavs<Spurs]

well if he opts out this year.... then you guys have to trade a boat load of players for cash just to sign him LOL

I wonder if I would get flamed if I said

Kobe > TP + Manu .

[baseline bum]

re ed!!! you know and i know that malone had to switch off on some of the HOF centers.... i.e kareem, parrish, olojuwon... etc... and besides some of those guys you mentioned were the second units of their teams.... what about james worthy, barkley, erving... etc..

And Duncan didn't have to guard O'Neal, Garnett, Webber, Nowitzki, Malone, and Wallace? Basically the deepest concentration of talent at his position in his conference in the history of the league. Wow, Karl Malone had to switch off onto Robert Parish a couple of times a games twice a season in the first couple of years of his career!

[ElNono]

I have to agree. I have the Spurs 03 finals on DVD like most Spurs fans do and that was truly Timmy at his best. He is still a great player but back in 03, this man was one of the best big man of all time on both sides of the ball, just amazing....

+1
The line of game 6 against the Nets in the Finals says it all really:

21pts/20rbd/10ast/8blk

[Lakers999]

And Duncan didn't have to guard O'Neal, Garnett, Webber, Nowitzki, Malone, and Wallace? Basically the deepest concentration of talent at his position in his conference in the history of the league. Wow, Karl Malone had to switch off onto Robert Parish a couple of times a games twice a season in the first couple of years of his career!

for two of those les didnt he have to help Robinson with the Double teams... O'neal, Malone and Garnett I Understand.... but Webber, Dirk and Ben Wallace??? COME ON!!!!! your just reaching here

[HarlemHeat37]

Karl Malone was known to play worse in the playoffs, and that's the main reason people have him behind Duncan on all-time lists..same with why D-Rob's legacy isn't as good as it could have been..

Moses Malone is up there, but he was only an above average defensive player at best..

Barkley was a below average defensive player, and that alone puts Duncan ahead of him..

Kobe has choked in almost every NBA finals he's been in, and has never won a le as a #1 option..he needs to win 2 les as a #1 to surpass Duncan IMO..

there really isn't an argument for any of these guys..

other than Hakeem, Duncan has had a worst supporting cast than any of the other consensus top 10 players..also like Hakeem, Duncan is one of the few superstars to ever win an NBA le without another all-star caliber player on his side, as he did in 2003..

his accolades speak for themselves..he's one of the best defensive players of all-time..our team has been a contender or borderline contender since he joined the team..we've had the best record in all of sports with him..4 les, 3 finals MVPs, 2 MVPs..

it would be extremely difficult for a player to stack up with Tim's accolades..

looking at his rankings in the NBA..anybody can argue with these if they want, but you'll just fail..

2009: top 6 player..he's behind Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Paul, and Howard..
2008: top 6 player at worst..behind the same guys that I just listed, probably not Wade and Howard..maybe not KG..

2007: top 3 player..only Kobe and Lebron were better..
2006: top 4 player..Wade, Kobe, and Lebron were better..

2005: best player in the NBA..no arguments here, although it was a weak year..
2004: top 2 player in the NBA with KG..Shaq was in decline at this point..
2003: best player in the NBA..Shaq and KG in the conversation..
2002: 2nd best player in the NBA behind Shaq..
2001: 2nd best player in the NBA behind Shaq..
2000: 2nd best player in the NBA behind Shaq..
1999: best player in the NBA, 2nd best at worst..
1998: top 5 player..behind Jordan, Malone, Shaq, Robinson...

[Lakers999]

+1
The line of game 6 against the Nets in the Finals says it all really:

21pts/20rbd/10ast/8blk

i hated 03 more than I hated 04 it was truly the darkest times in this decade for laker fans

[Mavs<Spurs]

Karl Malone was known to play worse in the playoffs, and that's the main reason people have him behind Duncan on all-time lists..same with why D-Rob's legacy isn't as good as it could have been..

Moses Malone is up there, but he was only an above average defensive player at best..

Barkley was a below average defensive player, and that alone puts Duncan ahead of him..

Kobe has choked in almost every NBA finals he's been in, and has never won a le as a #1 option..he needs to win 2 les as a #1 to surpass Duncan IMO..

there really isn't an argument for any of these guys..

other than Hakeem, Duncan has had a worst supporting cast than any of the other consensus top 10 players..also like Hakeem, Duncan is one of the few superstars to ever win an NBA le without another all-star caliber player on his side, as he did in 2003..

his accolades speak for themselves..he's one of the best defensive players of all-time..our team has been a contender or borderline contender since he joined the team..we've had the best record in all of sports with him..4 les, 3 finals MVPs, 2 MVPs..

it would be extremely difficult for a player to stack up with Tim's accolades..

looking at his rankings in the NBA..anybody can argue with these if they want, but you'll just fail..

2009: top 6 player..he's behind Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Paul, and Howard..
2008: top 6 player at worst..behind the same guys that I just listed, probably not Wade and Howard..maybe not KG..

2007: top 3 player..only Kobe and Lebron were better..
2006: top 4 player..Wade, Kobe, and Lebron were better..

2005: best player in the NBA..no arguments here, although it was a weak year..
2004: top 2 player in the NBA with KG..Shaq was in decline at this point..
2003: best player in the NBA..Shaq and KG in the conversation..
2002: 2nd best player in the NBA behind Shaq..
2001: 2nd best player in the NBA behind Shaq..
2000: 2nd best player in the NBA behind Shaq..
1999: best player in the NBA, 2nd best at worst..
1998: top 5 player..behind Jordan, Malone, Shaq, Robinson...

Excellent analysis, some great points, thanks !

[baseline bum]

for two of those les didnt he have to help Robinson with the Double teams... O'neal, Malone and Garnett I Understand.... but Webber, Dirk and Ben Wallace??? COME ON!!!!! your just reaching here

Rasheed Wallace.

[Mavs<Spurs]

for two of those les didnt he have to help Robinson with the Double teams... O'neal, Malone and Garnett I Understand.... but Webber, Dirk and Ben Wallace??? COME ON!!!!! your just reaching here

Rasheed Wallace, not Ben surely !

And it's true that Rasheed wasn't always a prolific scorer, but he could score, both from distance and down on the block with a nearly unblockable shot because of the high release.

It's pretty obvious that C Webb was an amazingly great player.

And Dirk is a nightmare to guard. Especially for a big.


I can see your point about Rasheed, although like I said Rasheed could be tough when he wanted to be.

The other two were good players and Dirk still is and they were tough covers.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Rasheed Wallace.

LOL at Ben Wallace being a tough player for Tim Duncan to guard !

[Mavs<Spurs]

i hated 03 more than I hated 04 it was truly the darkest times in this decade for laker fans

I don't know that this Laker team could beat the 2000-2003 version of the Lakers.

Shaq and Kobe, both playing at or near the top of their careers (Kobe's peak was a little later and he's still playing at that peak, obviously).

[baseline bum]

I have to agree. I have the Spurs 03 finals on DVD like most Spurs fans do and that was truly Timmy at his best. He is still a great player but back in 03, this man was one of the best big man of all time on both sides of the ball, just amazing....

Let's play a game of which one doesn't belong: EDIT: Well, looking past the whole ring thing too

Malone's 98 Playoffs:
GAMES: 20
PPG: 26.3
FG%: 47.1
3FG%: 0.0
FT%: 78.8
RPG: 10.9
APG: 3.4
SPG: 1.1
BPG: 1.0
TOPG: 3.0
EFF: 26.8


O'Neal's 00 Playoffs:
GAMES: 23
PPG: 30.7
FG%: 56.6
3FG%: nan
FT%: 45.6
RPG: 15.4
APG: 3.1
SPG: 0.6
BPG: 2.4
TOPG: 2.4
EFF: 33.3

Olajuwon's 95 Playoffs:
GAMES: 22
PPG: 33.0
FG%: 53.1
3FG%: 50.0
FT%: 68.1
RPG: 10.3
APG: 4.5
SPG: 1.2
BPG: 2.8
TOPG: 3.3
EFF: 33.8

Duncan's 03 Playoffs:
GAMES: 24
PPG: 24.7
FG%: 52.9
3FG%: 0.0
FT%: 67.7
RPG: 15.4
APG: 5.3
SPG: 0.6
BPG: 3.3
TOPG: 3.2
EFF: 34.9

Jordan's 91 Playoffs:
GAMES: 17
PPG: 31.1
FG%: 52.4
3FG%: 38.5
FT%: 84.5
RPG: 6.4
APG: 8.4
SPG: 2.4
BPG: 1.4
TOPG: 2.5
EFF: 35.1

[Lakers999]

I don't know that this Laker team could beat the 2000-2003 version of the Lakers.

Shaq and Kobe, both playing at or near the top of their careers (Kobe's peak was a little later and he's still playing at that peak, obviously).

i dunno who would win... since the zone defense was allowed in 2003 the Kobe and Shaq tandem needed to be adjusted to more players who could hit the outside shot....that was our biggest problem in 04... kobe was double teamed Shaq was guarded well by ben and rasheed wallace and no one could hit the outside shot