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Deron is better at the point guard position.
What are you basing this on? He's just too big to guard extremely fast point guards. He's a very good defender if you would actually watch him.
I could not POSSIBLY disagree with you more on this take. Tony Parker has Tim Duncan. That right there means that he has a player who is consistently better than Boozer on offense and LIGHT YEARS ahead of him on defense. This is to say nothing of basketball IQ, which is akin to taking an average person and asking him to do math against Stephen Hawking.
As a Spurs fan, I cannot possibly believe you would say the Jazz are equal to the Spurs in talent. You're saying if you took Parker and Deron off their respective teams, each team would have a similar record? The Jazz would be a 30 win team without Williams.
This is a flawed argument. Tony is not relied upon for assists in this offense. In fact, Pop probably doesn't WANT Tony to get many assists. His job is to penetrate and either A) score or B) draw several defenders to allow ball rotation to the other side of the court for open shots. The Spurs are not a one-pass team, which is why Parker and Duncan never get many assists, even though Duncan is constantly passing out of double teams.The TP is a better pg than Williams opinion is about the single dumbest take on this board. How many games this year did TP have 10+ assists? A couple? Any at all? LMFAO at a guy who rarely, if ever, gets 10+ assists being a better point guard than Deron Williams.
There cannot be more opposite point guards than Deron and Tony. One is a powerful, oversized PG who can back down the other team or make quick passes for easy buckets. The other is a lightning fast penetrating point guard who is relied upon for scoring and defensive break-downs to free up outside shots.
Tony Parker just scored 19 points in one QUARTER. Consider that he was on pace for 76 points, and only backed off because the Spurs had the game well in hand the rest of the way, save a small 3rd quarter run by the Mavs. He could have easily went off for 50 or maybe 60+ last night. The Mavs had absolutely no answer for him. Luckily for Tony, the Spurs didn't need him to do that.
Deron is better at the point guard position.
Havoc one of the first epic arguments I ever got into on this board was over the nature of the pg position and whether or not "true" or prototypical players exist for any given position. And I'm not going to repeat it in great detail other than to say that we're going to have to agree to disagree about it.
And I understand that the Spurs offense is less dependant on Tony getting as many assists as possible, but were that not the case, that doesn't mean he has or could have the court vision/passing ability of Deron. Not even close IMO. I watch Deron drop beautiful assists (or blown assists) every single time he steps on the floor. And system or not, the fact is, I don't think Tony Parker, while a fine player, better in some areas, has anywhere near that level of ability when it comes to passing the ball.
Why when I say the Jazz have = talent does everyone pull the Duncan card? That is one player.
When you look at the entire roster, the Jazz are just as talented on paper. Yes Duncan is better than Boozer. But Okur is much better than Bonner. Millsap is much better than KT. Brewer is better than any wing the Spurs have. Ginobili is better than any sg they have, but then the Jazz have AK47.
If Deron is that much better than TP, he would be able to win on the road. He would be able to advance deeper in the playoffs.
I don't see that we're disagreeing. I think Deron might be slightly better than Parker right now, but the difference is very slim.
Deron is a better passer, however, Tony is more unstoppable as a scorer. He's the fastest player in the league and there's not a player in the league who can stay with him when he's on. As good of a passer as Deron is, that's how fantastic Tony is at getting into the paint and finishing. He fits better on the Spurs than Williams would, but most teams would probably benefit more from Deron than Tony.
The Jazz have talent. It doesn't matter because they've quit. And there's not a damn thing in the world Deron can do about that. He's been getting 20+ and 15+ all the time. And if his teammates still don't want to try, there's not a drop of blame you can put on Deron for that. He doesn't fall apart on the road, or cause anybody else to and I'll be damned if he takes the blame for his team being a bunch mentally soft -made pussies. No matter how talented they are. Blame Sloan.
For what it's worth, I think Tony is hands-down the better scorer (and that's saying a lot considering Deron's 3 pt ability). I mean the guy is just flat out unstoppable. It's no joke to say that he could go for as many points as he wants. He's the type of guy who could lead the league in scoring. It's just, yeah, I don't think that's necessarily the pg's job on (as you alluded to) most teams. But hey, it works for the Spurs and he's damn good at doing what they need him to do.
The leader of the team gets the blame. Just like Dirk. Puts up great numbers, has an MVP, is an extremely talented player and he has been to a finals. He bears the bulk of the criticisms. Boozer is the only guy I see quitting, no one else.
Even Detroit, with a garbage team, who have all mailed it in, wins on the road. Against good teams. Sometimes you have to will your team to victory. Since Tony has done that in the past and in the present he gets the nod.
Duncan >>>>> Boozer
Parker ~= Deron
Manu >>>>> anyone else on the Jazz
The NBA, especially in the playoffs, is not a game of 11 player teams. It's usually 8 players getting a huge majority of the minutes with a 9th player picking up garbage time.
When you have three dominant players like the Spurs have, that is basically all you need to win a le. But you usually need at least two superstars to win a le, unless you're incredibly solid 1-5 like the 04 Pistons were. This is a league dominated by putting decent shooters and fill-in guys around unstoppable scoring machines and letting them go to work.
Right now, the Jazz have one superstar, one borderline star in Boozer, and a collection of role players. AK-47 is just not a force in the playoffs. Brewer has promise but he's young and inconsistent. The Jazz have absolutely abysmal defense. They found every possible way to lose the game last night against the Lakers even though LA was GIVING them one at Staples. Boozer made one good play and around 8 horrible consecutive possessions. He is not even fit be mentioned as an "offensive force" when he can't even hold on to the freaking ball.
Again I pose the question to you: How would the Jazz be without Deron? How would the Spurs be without Tony? We'd still probably win 40+ games based on Duncan alone. The Jazz might not win 30.
Spurs without Tony would be a disaster, just like Utah without Deron. Who would run the point for the Spurs? Mason? He has proven inept, especially when game planned against. JV? Do I have to go there? Hill? Not a terrible player, but it is different being the man, especially for a rookie. Ginobili? He has proven you cannot play him a ton of minutes in the regular season or he will break down, plus he is not a great point guard.
Yes, Duncan/Parker/Gino > DWill/Boozer/Okur, but the difference between those three is just as close as the difference between Bowen/Finley/Bonner/KT < AK/Brewer/Millsap/Harpring
Deron is a better all around point guard by definition but Tony is still a top 3 pg in the league and is a better fit for what the Spurs need out of that position. There.
D.Will is arguably the fourth best guard in the NBA, so probably not.
My point is that the Spurs have threats other than Tony. The Jazz have no premiere players outside of Deron.
No, it's not. Out of Boozer, Okur, AK, Brewer, Millsap, and Harpring, you have 1.5 players who play good defense. Brewer is a very good defensive player, and AK plays defense SOMETIMES. Everyone else is a sieve, and worthless at attempting to keep the other team from scoring.Yes, Duncan/Parker/Gino > DWill/Boozer/Okur, but the difference between those three is just as close as the difference between Bowen/Finley/Bonner/KT < AK/Brewer/Millsap/Harpring
Bowen is still an elite defender as evidenced by the last two games, KT is very good and even Finley is pretty decent, better than anyone on the Jazz outside of Brewer and AK. And of all those players, only Deron and maybe Millsap have decent BBall IQs. The Spurs team is loaded with cerebral players.
Duncan/Gino and Okur/Boozer score about the same amount of points. Do not act like the Jazz have no scoring threats.
What are you talking about AK/Harpring not playing defense?
Wow. You're right. I guess they just didn't get almost 240 points hung on them in 2 freaking games.
Do you actually watch games? Because you're using statistics to make your point and it's just not correct. Okur has never, at any point on this Earth, created a shot for himself in the NBA. Boozer might get decent position and score once in a while, but most of the time these guys are scoring simply because Williams is going nuts and making the defense cave around him.Duncan/Gino and Okur/Boozer score about the same amount of points.
There is absolutely no real knowledgeable NBA fan on this EARTH who would look at Okur and Boozer in an actual game and say that they are offensively equal to Manu and Duncan. None. Zero. You're equating a 7 foot slug of a three point shooter and an iron handed lummox who has one good move in the paint with the greatest PF of all-time and one of the most efficient NBA guards in history. Wow.
Boozer and Okur would average half what they do without Deron feeding them wide-open looks all game long.
Last edited by Cry Havoc; 04-22-2009 at 08:40 PM.
Spurs defense has been getting shredded all year, worst defensive team in the Duncan era,
You're totally right! The Spurs are giving up 93 points per game this year. They're horrible for a Spurs team defensively.Spurs defense has been getting shredded all year, worst defensive team in the Duncan era,
Meanwhile, the lockdown Jazz are giving up over 100 points per game.
Anything else you want to contradict yourself with?
Adjust for pace. Spurs are giving up 102 per 100 possessions and Utah 104, not that big of a difference.You're totally right! The Spurs are giving up 93 points per game this year. They're horrible for a Spurs team defensively.
Meanwhile, the lockdown Jazz are giving up over 100 points per game.
Anything else you want to contradict yourself with?
Did I say Okur/Boozer are better offensive players? I said they score about the same amount of points. Which is true. Utah has options. You act like they have no one that can score.Wow. You're right. I guess they just didn't get almost 240 points hung on them in 2 freaking games.
Do you actually watch games? Because you're using statistics to make your point and it's just not correct. Okur has never, at any point on this Earth, created a shot for himself in the NBA. Boozer might get decent position and score once in a while, but most of the time these guys are scoring simply because Williams is going nuts and making the defense cave around him.
There is absolutely no real knowledgeable NBA fan on this EARTH who would look at Okur and Boozer in an actual game and say that they are offensively equal to Manu and Duncan. None. Zero. You're equating a 7 foot slug of a three point shooter and an iron handed lummox who has one good move in the paint with the greatest PF of all-time and one of the most efficient NBA guards in history. Wow.
Boozer and Okur would average half what they do without Deron feeding them wide-open looks all game long.
I love this logic. Does pace not factor into the scoring of Boozer and Okur as well? Or does pace only affect stats that you are trying to support?
Again, adjust for pace. And you're ignoring what I said. Okur and Boozer do not create for themselves much at all. They are incapable of scoring at a high clip without being given fantastic opportunities by Deron.
I didn't say the Jazz players are incapable of scoring. But you are equating one decent post player and one glorified 3 point shooter with the GOAT at his position and one of the clutchest players in the NBA and then stating that the Utah role players make up for it. I happen to completely disagree with you on the basis that the Jazz have no one who can even hope to step up in a playoff game outside of Deron, and the last 2 games in L.A. have illustrated this fact rather starkly.
Yes smart ass, adjusted for pace the Jazz score more than the Spurs. So how can that be possible if the Spurs have so much more offensive talent?
LMAO that Boozer and Okur cannot step up in a playoff game, at least offensively. You are seriously underestimating their offensive ability. You can disagree all you want, but players outside of a big 3 most definitely matter or else the Spurs, who have the best big 3 would win every single year. When you start moving down the roster, the Jazz are comparable and there is no argument you can provide either statistically or logically to refute that.
Again, adjust for pace. And you're ignoring what I said. Okur and Boozer do not create for themselves much at all. They are incapable of scoring at a high clip without being given fantastic opportunities by Deron.
I didn't say the Jazz players are incapable of scoring. But you are equating one decent post player and one glorified 3 point shooter with the GOAT at his position and one of the clutchest players in the NBA and then stating that the Utah role players make up for it. I happen to completely disagree with you on the basis that the Jazz have no one who can even hope to step up in a playoff game outside of Deron, and the last 2 games in L.A. have illustrated this fact rather starkly.
No where did I say they were better. I simply said and have proven that they are at least comparable as a complete team talent wise.
You clearly aren't even able to understand what I've been saying all along, so I don't see what the point of continuing this discussion is.
Take TP off the team and Duncan and Ginobili would just rape the west.
I see what you are saying. You are saying Deron is so good that he makes that team what they are. That without him, Okur and Boozer and all their other scorers would suck.
I think you are undervaluing them. I am not saying D-Will does not make them better, but like I said, as an entire team, complete, they have equal talent.
Except that's exactly the case that most often happens. The NBA is dominated -- absolutely DOMINATED -- by the superstars of the league. That's why you have a player like Michael Jordan get 6 les with only Scottie Pippen, one other decent player, and a host of role guys who fill a need.
2008 - Pierce, Garnett, Allen
2007 - Duncan, Parker, Manu
2006 - Wade, Shaq, Mavs D
2005 - Duncan, Parker, Manu
2004 - Sheed, Billups, Rip (I already stated that this was an exception)
2003 - Duncan, Parker, Manu
2000-2002 - Shaq, Kobe, Fox
1999 - Duncan, Robinson, Elliott
Most of the 90s - Jordan, Pippen, Rodman/Kukoc/etc.
1980s - Bird, McHale, Parish & Magic, Kareem, Worthy
Thanks for proving my point once again!
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