Atheism on the rise in every single US state.

[Blake]

1. Read carefully...I've never compared the two. What I'm doing is pointing out that the problem of evil exists on many levels. Clearly, rape and torturing children are evil. But in God's eyes, so is sex between anyone other than a married heterosexual couple. So if we expect Him to defeat evil, you'll see no more rape and torture, but you'll also see no more of a lot of minor things that are evil in His eyes. It's those minor things that most people (including you) don't want Him to deal with. You'd like to be able to define what is evil and what isn't.

I did read careful.

What you asked to people to give up in your weird poll has little to do with what could be gained.

I'd like you to define sin. Is sin the same thing as evil?

2. You were created to annoy people on message boards! Kidding, kind of....but just because you don't choose to believe does not mean you don't have purpose while you're here. Do you kids? Maybe they'll grow up to believe, and to convince others to believe. Maybe that was your purpose.

Since purpose is not part of the Heaven equation, I don't care about my purpose...... and that's not what I asked.

If heaven is so much better, then why should I want to stay here.

As far as who gets in and who doesn't, the qualifications are simple: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved."

so are you then saying that Orthodox Jews that don't believe Jesus was the messiah are going to ?

simple yes or no would be fine.

3. No, but not because of a lack of free will, but because of a lack of authority. It's simply not your call.

Then why did he create Earth to begin with? why not just skip that part and go straight to Heaven.

If someone you love is convicted of a crime and sentenced to prison right now on earth, can you just ask the judge to let the criminal free and put you in the slammer instead?

see: Jesus dying on cross for my sins

[I Love Me Some Me]

1. True or false: once in heaven, will I have the free will to try to take over Heaven like Lucifer did?

will greed and envy not be capable?

2. Again, the you describe people in heaven, it's as if they are nothing more than pets.



what's so good about it?



3.are you kidding me?

what makes life worth living down here if Heaven is so much better?



4. James 2:24

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

1. You're confusing position/authority and free will. You (with free will) cannot overthrow the Cuban government. Not because you lack free will, but because you are not in position to do so.

2. You'll have to explain to me how you've concluded that living in heaven is like being a pet. I don't see the correlation.

What's good? Perfect health, for one. Two, no poverty. Three, no war....I could go on, but you'll prefer to focus on the fact that you probably won't be able to have a beer there.

3. Purpose.

4. Read that verse in the context of the chapter and you'll have a clearer understanding of what that means.

[I Love Me Some Me]

1. I did read careful.

What you asked to people to give up in your weird poll has little to do with what could be gained.

I'd like you to define sin. Is sin the same thing as evil?



2. Since purpose is not part of the Heaven equation, I don't care about my purpose...... and that's not what I asked.

If heaven is so much better, then why should I want to stay here.



3. so are you then saying that Orthodox Jews that don't believe Jesus was the messiah are going to ?

simple yes or no would be fine.



4. Then why did he create Earth to begin with? why not just skip that part and go straight to Heaven.



5. see: Jesus dying on cross for my sins

1. If you read carefully and concluded that I said drinking was the same as rape, you're reading comprehension needs some work.

Again...sin is anything contrary to the laws of God. Is sin evil? Sin is the result of evil.

2. But you're not talking about heaven anymore wen you ask why you're here on earth.

3. If Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, then yes...they will go to . Jesus even spoke directly to them and said, "Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

4.Because he wanted people to choose him, with other options available.

5. You are not Jesus. We're talking about free will, aren't we? You seem to think having free will suddenly gives you position and authority, and that's just not the case.

[Bigzax]

Atheism on the rise in every single US state.

God damn it!

[Duff McCartney]

????

I've personally tried to convince you to change your mind??? When???

I've always valued people's decision to believe what they want... You deserve no pity, judgement, praise, or condemnation on my part as long as as you treat me with the same consideration...

For that matter, why would you condemn me for standing up for my beliefs, as if I had no voice in the matter??? Again, another subtle double standard of "do as I say, not as I do"...

Look... I've no jurisdiction to cast judgement over how you choose to live your life... Why then would you then criticize me for defending the way I live mine??? I don't knock on your door... bother you during lunch, at school, work or any other place... So how have I proselytized you?

Any attempt to solicit empathy from the 'tolerance' crowd by suggesting that all Christians are judgemental only goes as far as the person (or the motives) making the claim. You think that Christians aren't constantly belittled by the athiest agenda that tries to suggest that our belief in GOD equates to 'lack of intelligence'??? Those two concepts are mutually exclusive, and nevertheless you all constantly insult us with that assumption. You said it yourself... and take it as a given.

Personally I don't care about your beliefs... you're grown-up and free to believe whatever you wish... No one is forcing you to believe what I believe. You've made your decision and I've made mine. You want respect??? How about you extend us the same courtesy...

Nothing personal...

It's probably more angel_luv than you. I apologize because I know you haven't proselytized to me. But I also haven't lumped you into having a lack of intelligence either.


I do show respect. I'm not saying you can't believe what you believe. Like I said before it doesn't matter to me what anyone believes. It's irrelevent. I'm not bashing you per se for your beliefs I'm bashing Christians in general that attempt to go around proselytizing to people and treating them like there is something wrong with them if they aren't a Christian, and disguising it all in kindness (ALA angel_luv)

That may or not be you but if it's not then like I said I apologize.

[LnGrrrR]

I already answered this...I say NO. But I'm not talking about God tricking everyone (through hypnotics or brainwashing) into thinking He's taken care of evil. I'm talking about a heaven with no evil, in reality not in someone's imagination.

But the hypnotized person isn't being 'tricked' if he's volunteering for it, right? In much the same way that your idea that once man enters Heaven, he will no longer be able to process/think/create sin, so the same goes for the hypnotized man in my scenario. I am merely reducing it from a supernatural state to a (somewhat) more natural scenario. I don't see how you don't find it analagous, unless you feel the supernatural aspect is a necessity.

[LnGrrrR]

1. Liberty is not selfish. The desire to continue things like rape, torture, and abuse so you can still get your drink is selfish.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with drinking, and I don't think the Bible did either.

Anyways, your question was whether I would be willing to trade in rape, murder, etc etc if I also had to give up sleeping before marriage, no drugs, etc etc for the world. I don't honestly think it's my place to choose something like that. Personally, I HAVE chosen that option, as I'm married and haven't murdered/raped/badstuffed anyone yet.

2. What should the final judgement be? 3 years probation and community service? We're talking about a God who has created everything. A God who offerred his only son as sacrifice for your mistakes. He watched that son get physically abused in horrible ways. He watched that son die a horrific death by crucifixion. At amoment's notice, He could have stepped in and stopped that death. At His word, his son would be spared. But because of His love for you, He watched His son die this death. Because of you, He forsake His son...because he wants you avoid the eternal damnation. All He asks in return is that you believe in the son that he allowed to be sacrificed for you.

And you say "no" to his face, and expect a light sentence?

Like I said before, just because I have been told this story does not mean I've seen any sort of evidence from God. YOU have seen the evidence obviously, and so it is obvious for YOU. However, I never have. To me, the above is merely a story, one amongst many of different religious stories, none of which seem plausible.

I can tell you that if God WERE to come down face-to-face and tell me he's here, I am relatively positive I would believe in him.

3. See above....He only asks that you believe. But look at the brightside...you'll have eternal torment, but at least you'll still have the free will to bang whoever you want!

Why is belief in God more important than living a good/moral life? If I live my life morally, why should that mean less than someone who doesn't live morally but believes in God?

[Blake]

1. You're confusing position/authority and free will. You (with free will) cannot overthrow the Cuban government. Not because you lack free will, but because you are not in position to do so.

Lucifer did not have the capability to overthrow God, yet he tried any way and got thrown out.

(which if that's the case, either Lucifer is a real dumbass or God is not omnipotent, but that's a new tangent)

If Lucifer had the capability to make the attempt, why wouldn't I?

2. You'll have to explain to me how you've concluded that living in heaven is like being a pet. I don't see the correlation.

because according to you, all capabilities that lead to our free will here on earth are gone.

will there be sports in heaven? will I be able to cheat, or is my capability to cheat gone too.

Are all mansions the same size in heaven? are some closer to God's throne than others? Will jealousy of someone else's mansion not be possible?

I think you know I can do this all day.

What's good? Perfect health, for one. Two, no poverty. Three, no war....I could go on, but you'll prefer to focus on the fact that you probably won't be able to have a beer there.

No sex in Heaven?

Will we have servants?

Will we have work to do or will we be just sitting around, playing the harp?

3. Purpose.

so what purpose will we have once we reach Heaven?

4. Read that verse in the context of the chapter and you'll have a clearer understanding of what that means.

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,"[e] and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not even Rahab the pros ute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

you can justify how you want, but I can read where it says "faith without deeds is dead"

and what judge on earth would ever say "you had faith? even though you are murderer, then you are innocent" while he says "You had no faith? even though you sacrificed your own life to feed the hungry in Africa, you are guilty and will go to "

I don't care what you say.......that SUCKS.

[Blake]

1. If you read carefully and concluded that I said drinking was the same as rape, you're reading comprehension needs some work.

Again...sin is anything contrary to the laws of God. Is sin evil? Sin is the result of evil.

2. But you're not talking about heaven anymore wen you ask why you're here on earth.

3. If Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, then yes...they will go to . Jesus even spoke directly to them and said, "Unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

4.Because he wanted people to choose him, with other options available.

5. You are not Jesus. We're talking about free will, aren't we? You seem to think having free will suddenly gives you position and authority, and that's just not the case.

1. if I am not capable of breaking some of the ten commandments in Heaven, then by definition, my free will is gone.

2. I'm asking what the point of earth is. Why not just skip the earth thing altogether and get straight to the heaven thing, the way you are describing.

Why would God even put the stupid tree in the garden to begin with?

3. So the orthodox Jews that follow the rules laid out to them in the Old Testament by God himself will go to .

I guess someone should tell them that even though they are worshipping the same God that they are wasting their time.

4. and if they don't choose him, then instead of simply destroying them, he will burn and torture them. Why?

5. So i can sacrifice myself for someone else here on Earth, but I will not be able to do so in Heaven. More free will gone.

Please explain what exactly we will be capable of doing in Heaven, but because according to you, it's not much.

"You will have free will, only you won't be capable of doing anything"

Heaven sounds super!!

[I Love Me Some Me]

But the hypnotized person isn't being 'tricked' if he's volunteering for it, right? In much the same way that your idea that once man enters Heaven, he will no longer be able to process/think/create sin, so the same goes for the hypnotized man in my scenario. I am merely reducing it from a supernatural state to a (somewhat) more natural scenario. I don't see how you don't find it analagous, unless you feel the supernatural aspect is a necessity.

He not being tricked into hypnosis, but once hypnotized his mind is tricked into believing something that's not real. Nothing in reality has changed, but his perception is altered.

God is not going to alter your perception, he's going to change your reality.

[angel_luv]

Wow this thread grew a ton. I have to catch up from page 14 on!


Alvarez- I don't know exactly how old the world is but I don't believe it is millions of years old. 5,000 years old is probably a pretty close estimate.
Close to my guess estimate that is.

Hey Angel, I was just wondering. If you chosen folks miss out on the tribulation, then what will you be judged on? According to your bible, you will be tempted by satan. How is that going to happen if you guys are going on vacation with God and rest of us are down here suffering. That reminds me of a time my whole fam went to Disneyland and I had to stay at home with the sitter... I was pissed.

Also, what about people like myself who would like to wait and see, first. I mean, I dont like to rush to make a decision so cant I atleast see a miracle before I choose sides. Satan might have a good setup down here. You saw Devils Advocate right? That seemed like a pretty good deal ya know.

I believe that Christians are covered in the blood of Jesus and therefore are not judged when they die.
I also believe that Christians are rewarded for the good they have done, though all the ways in which God will honor us, I will have to wait and see when I get to Heaven.
I look forward to it.

I think you are asking questions regarding what the Bible calls the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
I don't know exactly how that will all unfold. I am by no means a prophecy scholar. I am very interested in the subject though.

Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins, I believe, have written some informational books on the subject in addition to their fiction series.
I recommend their work.

[tlongII]

Wow this thread grew a ton. I have to catch up from page 14 on!


Alvarez- I don't know exactly how old the world is but I don't believe it is millions of years old. 5,000 years old is probably a pretty close estimate.
Close to my guess estimate that is.








I believe that Christians are covered in the blood of Jesus and therefore are not judged when they die.
I also believe that Christians are rewarded for the good they have done, though all the ways in which God will honor us, I will have to wait and see when I get to Heaven.
I look forward to it.

I think you are asking questions regarding what the Bible calls the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
I don't know exactly how that will all unfold. I am by no means a prophecy scholar. I am very interested in the subject though.

Tim Lahaye and Jerry Jenkins, I believe, have written some informational books on the subject in addition to their fiction series.
I recommend their work.

Aaaaaaack! Can't let you get away with that Angel. The earth is over 4 Billion years old!

[angel_luv]

Aaaaaaack! Can't let you get away that Angel. The earth is over 4 Billion years old!

I know you're pretty old but even you have no lived long enough to have been there since the beginning of time and to know for sure.

You can only choose your source and make your best guess just like the rest of us.

[LnGrrrR]

He not being tricked into hypnosis, but once hypnotized his mind is tricked into believing something that's not real. Nothing in reality has changed, but his perception is altered.

God is not going to alter your perception, he's going to change your reality.

Thanks for the clarification. (Again, alot of these terms are tough to define, and so if I ask alot of questions, it's merely to tease out certain understandings of thought processes.)

Ok, so God will not 'trick' your mind into not performing sin. There will be no CAPABILITY for your mind to perceive/create sin, because God will change your reality so that sin is incapable, correct?

Given this, it is your belief that we will have free will still, because it isn't as if we COULD perform sin but are tricked into not doing it, but because there's no such thing as sin, therefore precluding that from being an option, yes?

To me, there is no ultimate difference between God creating a new reality without sin, and some non-supernatural theoretical person who could not sin. Is the only justifying difference the fact that God creates the first but not the latter? How is God not 'tricking' our brains by altering the reality of everyone in Heaven?

[tlongII]

I know you're pretty old but even you have no lived long enough to have been there since the beginning of time and to know for sure.

You can only choose your source and make your best guess just like the rest of us.

No, you use various isotopes with proven rates of radioactive decay. You can then estimate the age with some level of confidence.

[LnGrrrR]

He not being tricked into hypnosis, but once hypnotized his mind is tricked into believing something that's not real. Nothing in reality has changed, but his perception is altered.

God is not going to alter your perception, he's going to change your reality.

Another note: The reality AROUND the man hasn't changed, but from the man's viewpoint, the world HAS changed. But that's a whole nother argument about solipsism.

[LnGrrrR]

I know you're pretty old but even you have no lived long enough to have been there since the beginning of time and to know for sure.

You can only choose your source and make your best guess just like the rest of us.

Why do you think God would provide clues for scientists that the world is millions of years old if it was not? Or do you think that the majority of scientists just happen to be wrong? If so, why do you side against them?

[angel_luv]

No, you use various isotopes with proven rates of radioactive decay. You can then estimate the age with some level of confidence.

As I said, we all choose our source.

[tlongII]

As I said, we all choose our source.

Choose wisely my friend.

[angel_luv]

Why do you think God would provide clues for scientists that the world is millions of years old if it was not? Or do you think that the majority of scientists just happen to be wrong? If so, why do you side against them?

God told us exactly how Creation occurred.

See Genesis 1 & 2.

I support science and scientists so long as they show proper and due honor to God in their findings.

Anythng else is a mistake.

[angel_luv]

Choose wisely my friend.

Thank you. I have. I am most happy with my choice.

I respectfully extend your advice back to you.

[LnGrrrR]

God told us exactly how Creation occurred.

See Genesis 1 & 2.

I support science and scientists so long as they show proper and due honor to God in their findings.

Anythng else is a mistake.

Does the Bible say how long ago God created the Earth?

[Blake]

Alvarez- I don't know exactly how old the world is but I don't believe it is millions of years old. 5,000 years old is probably a pretty close estimate.
Close to my guess estimate that is.

wow.

science is proving more and more that the Earth is roughly 4+ billion years old.

....and thanks to the rate of expansion of the universe, it is pretty easy to calculate that the age of the universe itself is somewhere more than 13 billion years old.

Don't worry though.........if 1000 years = a blink of God's eye, then you don't really have to take the 7 days of creation so literal.

[I Love Me Some Me]

1. I don't see anything inherently wrong with drinking, and I don't think the Bible did either.

Anyways, your question was whether I would be willing to trade in rape, murder, etc etc if I also had to give up sleeping before marriage, no drugs, etc etc for the world. I don't honestly think it's my place to choose something like that. Personally, I HAVE chosen that option, as I'm married and haven't murdered/raped/badstuffed anyone yet.



2. Like I said before, just because I have been told this story does not mean I've seen any sort of evidence from God. YOU have seen the evidence obviously, and so it is obvious for YOU. However, I never have. To me, the above is merely a story, one amongst many of different religious stories, none of which seem plausible.

I can tell you that if God WERE to come down face-to-face and tell me he's here, I am relatively positive I would believe in him.



3. Why is belief in God more important than living a good/moral life? If I live my life morally, why should that mean less than someone who doesn't live morally but believes in God?

1. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with drinking either...just drunkenness, which was my original statement.

The point to the hypothetical was to say that everyone is so concerned about losing things like their sex and their drugs, but fail to see the greatness of evil being defeated.

2. When God does come down here, it'll be too late. But hey, I'm not here to convert anyone...your beliefs are yours.

3.Because a true belief in God will result in those moral behaviors. See the verse in James that Blake erroneously referenced. What that chapter is doing is calling out the hypocrisy of those who claim to believe, but deny Jesus by their lifestyle.

[Blake]

As I said, we all choose our source.

wow.

I'm sorry, but that it is extremely close minded and you are doing yourself no favors.