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because dogs don't have morals - you insulted me, and expect an actual response back.
like i said, i don't entertain conversations with the mentally ill.
Do you think it's moral to throw your children in a pit of fire to suffer for all of eternity just because your child didn't love you?
Answer the question.
Do you think that's moral?
Would you ever do that to your child? We both know you wouldn't. So why do you worship a god that does that?
because dogs don't have morals - you insulted me, and expect an actual response back.
like i said, i don't entertain conversations with the mentally ill.
z0sa, i find it highly ironic you call someone else mentally ill, considering the quality of your posts.
lol
ditto for your morals
hey, the only thing you ever did wrong was not believe right?
Thanks for the link. I read what you posted.
You're missing my point. I'm not just talking about me... why doesn't he find a way to convince EVERYONE?
Obviously, he DOES convince some people, right? Either him, or his agents, or some manifestation, correct? So why not everyone?
Are you saying that without the conviction that God is there to listen, I can't pray to hear his word? That's circular logic. I can only hear God if I know he's there?
Fixed: You're FOR stoning children. If you're not, just say that you don't agree with the Bible and you feel that children shouldn't be stoned.
Ever watch the "Butterfly Effect"???
In my opinion GOD has the capability of knowing the outcome of every possible decision we choose to make throughout our lifetimes, but ultimately, because we're endowed with free will, those choices are still ours to make. Cause and effect... Cause and effect...
That premise is contingent on the fact that an infinite array of 'outcomes' exists for each of our choices... and because GOD is omniscient, He knows the result of every possible path... (kind of like Adam Sandler's "Click").
So yes, GOD gave us free will... but free will wouldn't amount to much of anything if we weren't accountable for our own decisions... So if He didn't create us as drones it's because He wanted for us to come to know Him out of our own volition and not because we were divinely coerced.
The simple answer is, I eat the delicious cookie without a doubt.It doesn't matter what the choice is, in all honesty. Let's say I forced you to eat a delicious cookie, or be tormented forever. It's still not moral.
If Jesus took our suffering, then why must we believe? Jesus can't have completely sacrificed for our suffering, if we still have to perform some action on our part.
In the end, you went with the exact argument I figured you would have. "Sure, it seems alot like this cir stance, but it's completely different because it's God/eternity/Heaven/whatever so that makes it ok."
I thought forgiveness was divine?
And what action is required to believe?
And actually, that's not my argument at all...that was my response to your question.
What about the indigenous people around the world who have never heard of Christianity? Will they be saved? If I die as an agnostic or atheist today, then why did God create me if he already knew that I would have no chance at being saved? Does anyone know the answers to these questions because I sure as don't.
LOL...ironically, this story has an example of a father who makes every effort to save his son. He corrects him, he punishes him, and after he has extended enough opportunity for the son to correct his behavior (which the son chooses not to do), he must finally turn his child over to face the established consequences of his choices.It is permissible to kill your disobedient children, just like god. Don't you read Deuteronomy?
Deuteronomy 21:18
'If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not listen to the voice of his father...'
...or his mother...
...even when they punish him...
..his father and mother must take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town.
They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard."
All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.
Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra
After reading a couple of those, my agnosticism strengthened immensely
He did... He created life... leaving a pretty amazing fingerprint.
Even then naysayers still find ways to discredit His handiwork, choosing instead to believe in abiogenensis (the belief that 'life' was produced from non-living molecules)....
That conviction is born from the 'sense' that we need Him, something other than ourselves. Some people are simply too self-sufficient, too independent and believe they don't need GOD. One can't find something if they aren't searching for it...
Not circular at all... Your prayers will reach heaven only if they are genuine...Are you saying that without the conviction that God is there to listen, I can't pray to hear his word? That's circular logic. I can only hear God if I know he's there?
If you truly desire to find Him, you will. Otherwise, why waste your breath in mocking His desire to come to know us.
The Apostle Paul said this:
The New Living Bible translation breaks the verse down into every day language like this:Romans 1:19-21 KJV
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Romans 1:19-21 NLT
They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused.
That decision is always your to make...
That's definitely not omniscience, though it would make god a of a computer (in the sense of one who can do amazing computations, not in the sense of being a bunch of circuit-boards).
My decisions would have already been foreseen by God. It doesn't make sense to me that he would create me knowing that I am most likely going to die without some sort of epiphany or conversion and a lack of faith in him.
You do realize that the "he" refers to Judah not the Lord, right?Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra
After reading a couple of those, my agnosticism strengthened immensely
Judges 1:1-3
Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?
And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.
And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.You can subsitute "and he drave" for "and Judah drave.", as it is understood in the context.Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."
Something else: How can you be sure that the chariots of iron was not Judah's excuse to not deal with the valley inhabitants?
Is it not possible that God told Judah to drive out the valley inhabitants but Judah would not out of concern about the chariots and so God honored Judah's free will and did not force the issue?
ridiculous. You act like there simply can't be a reasonable explanation, despite the fact I gave you one. I NEVER implied, nor stated, i was for stoning children - and the verse is obviously not talking about a child per se, nor gluttons and drunkards. It's not actually speaking about a specific situation even.
Ancient Israel was a THEOCRACY, people. They were led not by a king, but by GOD (there were judges, and even kings at one point, but God was always acknowledged as "head of state"). When GOD orders something, people take it VERY SERIOUSLY. GOD (i capitalize it for clarity - this is the almighty King of Kings we're talking here) comes down himself, gives your nation ten commandments which must NEVER be broken, and commands his followers to obey them. What is so hard to understand about the parents eventually becoming angry and frightened at such a sinful child (and I say child as in their child, not a little kid or even teenager - their were little or no children in ancient Israel which were gluttons, and even more chances they were not drunkards) who has continually dishonored them against God's (the King of the entire Nation) wishes and their own, despite living in their home. Again, its up to the parents to take their child to the gates and ask the men to stone him.
Last edited by z0sa; 05-04-2009 at 02:34 PM.
Yes I do. However, the Lord was with Judah and helping him throughout the day and now because there were chariots of iron, the Lord was reluctant?
If the Lord, the all powerful, was on your side during a major conflict or major decision, why would you doubt anything you decide to do knowing you have automatic success at your side? Why would Judah doubt, then?Something else: How can you be sure that the chariots of iron was not Judah's excuse to not deal with the valley inhabitants?
The Lord was not reluctant. Judah was.
Judah doubted because men's hearts are clouded with fear.
Think about the disciple Simom Peter, who literally walked with Jesus and witnessed Jesus miracles firsthand. Yet many, many times Simon Peter wrestled with fear and disbelief, even in the physical presence of Jesus.
Jesus had the following to say to Peter.
Read it again and, this time, subs ute your name where it says Simon.Luke 22:31-32-
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
I believe the same Jesus who called Simon, strengthened Simon's faith and encouraged Simon's heart wants to call, strengthen, and encourage YOU!
he deprives "his chosen ones" of earthly pleasures and then because of their failure to believe in Jesus, he tortures them further in for eternity.
Great.
so what exactly are angels then? are they not capable of developing a relationship with God?
apparently they were created with free will, otherwise Lucifer would have never rebelled against God.
according to I love Me Some Me's line of reasoning, we will not be capable of doing such things.......therefore, we will be less than the angels.
yippee.
you really think heaven is gonna suck? i know its probably just a type of shtick since i'm pretty sure you dont believe in a heaven, but seriously whats the deal?
We will probably never see eye to eye on this
I did and it sounded weird and creepyRead it again and, this time, subs ute your name where it says Simon.
I believe the same Jesus who called Simon, strengthened Simon's faith and encouraged Simon's heart wants to call, strengthen, and encourage YOU!
Although I disagree with your beliefs, I must say that I genuinely wish I had the same faith in there being a god, or God like you. I really want there to be an all loving being,celestial parent watching out for us. It sounds great. But, I just cannot find or accept anything to make me believe that there is.
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